Mindset of Photography Mega Episode: Emotions, Critiques, and Creativity in Photography

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brooke Shaden (00:00):
When I look back at my life, I don't want to

(00:01):
think, I just made a bunch ofstuff for me and then I died.
Like, I want to think I made abunch of stuff for me and then I
made that stuff relate tosomebody else and it impacted
their life positively.
I'm very interested in theviewer and in their experience
of my art and not just myexperience of my art.

Raymond Hatfield (00:20):
Hey, welcome to the beginner photography
podcast, I'm your host RaymondHatfield and today we are
exploring one of the mostpowerful aspects of photography
your mindset yeah, today'sepisode is gonna help you
cultivate that mindset by divingdeep into the mental and
emotional aspects of Photographyso that you can truly elevate
your work But first as you know,the beginner photography podcast

(00:43):
is brought to you by cloud spot.
With CloudSpot, you can impressyour clients with a beautiful
gallery that is easy to view,share, and download on any
device.
You can control image size, adda watermark, and download limits
as well.
So grab your free foreveraccount over at deliverphotos.
com and only upgrade when you'reready.
Becoming a great photographer isabout so much more than just

(01:05):
mastering your gear or nailingthe technical settings.
It really is about developing amindset that fosters creativity,
resilience, and personal growthas well.
That is why I have compiled thismega episode featuring six
guests who are going to sharetheir personal journeys and the
lessons that they've learnedalong the way when it comes to

(01:27):
creating a mindset that is goingto help you as a photographer.
So of course you're going tohear stories about overcoming
creative blocks, buildingconfidence, embracing
imperfection, and staying trueto your vision as well, even
when it is challenging.
By the end of this episode, itis my hope that you will have a
new perspective on how toapproach your photography with

(01:48):
intention and focus.
And, no, how to grow, not justas a photographer, but as an
artist.
And remember, you don't have togo it alone.
You know, we would love to haveyou join the incredibly
supportive and free beginnerphotography podcast community.
So come join us, say, Hey, askquestions and learn how to take

(02:08):
beautiful photos.
So just head over to beginnerphoto pod.
com forward slash group to joinnow.
Up first today I chat withwedding photographer and just
all around badass Alison Conklinwho focuses on capturing real
moments and emotion inphotography rather than
technical profession.
You're gonna hear how hermultiple near death and death

(02:30):
experiences have helped her toembrace personal storytelling in
her images and how resiliencehas enhanced the depth and
impact of her work.
You're also going to learn theimportance of staying true to
your personal vision andconfidence and how the shift in
perspective can strengthen yourunique voice and style in
photography.

(02:51):
So Alison, my first question foryou is, I know that you, have
had a, full life, there's been alot in photography, but I really
want to know right now, when didyou know that photography itself
was really going to play animportant role in your life?

Alison Conklin (03:05):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So for me, honestly, it was, youhave to imagine me as a 14 year
old girl.
Sitting in like the corner of avery busy house that was filled
with all of my, Sicilian familymembers, very loud buzzing
around.
My mom had just died and I wasput in charge of the memorial

(03:27):
wall at her funeral.
and this is obviously beforeFacebook and social media.
and, um, My parents werehobbyist photographers.
They had a darkroom in theirhouse.
They were both chemists.
And just loved developing filmand enlarging negatives and all
of that.
So, my dad had this liketattered, beat up box that he

(03:48):
like kind of dug out of hiscloset.
And was like, hey here, you cango through these and make a wall
for your mom's funeral.
And, I'd never seen this boxbefore.
I knew my parents were intophotography.
We would have slides that myparents would show.
Like they love slide film.
and I remember just sort oflooking through this box and

(04:09):
falling in love with these blackand white, like eight by tens my
parents had taken developed andprinted on their own.
And I fell in love with.
These photos of my mom that werejust candid, organic, her
laughing, her eyes closed, likeher cooking, just sort of them.
And it sort of, it showed me whomy parents were in a time period

(04:31):
in which I was too young toremember, or wasn't born yet.
But then also I saw thesebeautiful images of like the day
I was born.
And I just at that moment, As a13 year old sitting in the
middle of this busy house whereeveryone is grieving, I
understood what the power ofphotography was.
And that, for me, solidified mylove for photography and what it

(04:53):
could do.
And even though I had lost mymom and, I had her still and I
could hear her laugh and Icould, remember the way she
smiled and the way she looked.
And I just understood howamazing it was to have that
gift.
and so that was the moment thatI was like, photography is
always going to be part of mylife.

That is, extremely powerful, and thank
you so much for sharing that.
I'm trying to imagine myself ina similar position and obviously
it's impossible to do so, but Idon't know if I'd be strong
enough to go through a bunch ofimages that I had not seen of my
mom in that same situation.
Do you feel like you were doingit?
Do you feel like the task ofcreating this memory wall for

(05:35):
your mom was, I don't want tosay bigger than yourself, but do
you feel like it, in a sense wasa way to, shield you from the
emotions that you were currentlyfeeling?
Or was it more of, a project foryou to, again, best showcase who
your mom was through theseimages that you had not seen
before?
I don't know if that's a fullyfleshed out question.

(05:56):
Does that make sense?

Yeah, I think it does.
And I think I understand whatyou're asking.
I mean, if you know who I was asa 14 year old, you have to
understand that I was an onlychild.
I was a bit of like a shy kid.
Yeah.
and my family was like a bigItalian Sicilian family, so they
were all very loud.
I didn't live close to them, soI wasn't used to that, because
again, my mom was very sick mywhole life, and my parents sort

(06:20):
of worked as a unit, to, towardsher, and so I was sort of always
in the background, a little bitlonely, a little bit artsy,
like, and so I think my dadknew, like, okay, Alison's not
gonna feel comfortable.
being kind of smothered by theattention or like, all of that.
And he gave me this project.
And I think for me, seeing thesephotos was such a gift.

(06:41):
Even now, sometimes I'll haveextended family be like, I was
cleaning something out and Ifound this photo.
of your parents.
And my dad died this year too.
and so it still stops me in mytracks because it's such a gift.
so I think that for me, it was alittle bit of, like me
protecting myself, like puttingmyself in this corner, looking
at these photos, but then alsoit was more of an epiphany of, I

(07:04):
am so glad I had these becauseif I didn't, all I would have
left would be these Olin Mills.
family portraits, Right.
That were like us, likeundressed, like wearing clothes
we would never normally wear ona regular basis and sitting
uncomfortably in a studio.
And what I had in front of mewas truly who my mom was.
And when I look back over myphotography career, which is, I

(07:28):
don't know, almost 25, 26 years,I realized recently that I
started photography for otherpeople.
Because at that age at 14, Iunderstood what I had.
And I understood if I didn'thave that how much harder the
loss of my mother would havebeen or would be.
I didn't want that to happen toanyone else.

(07:50):
I wanted to create these imagesfor people so that they would
always have.
And I don't think that a lot ofmy, cause you have to remember,
I started shooting weddings whenI was 18.
So a lot of my clients wereolder than me and probably, or
maybe didn't have, and obviouslydidn't have a lot of the same
experiences as me.
And so I was set out to likemake the world a better place,

(08:11):
make their lives better becausesomeday we're all going to
experience loss.
We're all going to experiencegrief.
And maybe they had no idea whatthat was going to feel like or
make sense.
My idea was like, if I takethese photos and I capture who
these people really are,hopefully decades and decades
and decades down the road,they'll always have them.
And so I am always a proponentof leaving things better than

(08:34):
how we found them.
And I think that was what washealing to me and being able to
think in some small way, maybemy photos would comfort them.
Even if they couldn't remembermy name.
Like, they'd go, yeah, we had awedding photographer, I don't
remember who she was.
They would have that one photoof, their mom watching them get
married or dancing with theirdad or whatever it might be.

(08:57):
I don't know if that directlyanswers your question, but
hopefully it does.

want to know, like, from choosing to get into
weddings so that you can providethis for people, I think is
incredibly insightful.
Like, especially for such ayoung age.
But I'm sure that there's a lotmissing that we don't know here.
From, the 13 year old girlsitting there with the box of
photos to Hey, I'm going to dothis for other people at their
wedding and showing up to yourfirst wedding.

(09:23):
You said that your parents werehobbyist photographers.
did they teach you photography?
how did you learn?
I guess one, like were thetechnicals even important to you
or was it simply, the moment?

mean, I was always sort of in front of the
camera.
My parents took lots of photosof me, but it wasn't until my
mom died and I fell in love withthis box of photos that I was
suddenly like, wait, dad, youdeveloped these?
remember, this is the timeperiod of like one hour
developing, you know, or likethrow away little cameras.
he's like, yeah.
And I was like, wait, do youstill have What is it called a

(09:54):
dark room?
Do you still have these things?
And he's like, I still have theenlarger.
I still have the clock.
I still have the camera.
I could teach you.
And I'm an only child.
My dad was suddenly a singlefather of a teenage girl and I
wouldn't leave him alone.
And I kept pestering him abouthow to take photos.
And he built me a dark room inour basement.

(10:14):
and together we went through.
He first taught me how toenlarge negatives, and we went
through the negatives of myparents.
And so, we would watch, my momhad these, like, beautiful eyes
come up, and, the developer andthe toner, and, like, we would
hang the pictures along a stringbetween the washing machine and
the dryer, and it was just thetwo of us.
And my dad, you have tounderstand, has a doctorate.

(10:35):
in chemistry, he's veryintelligent, maybe not the best
social skill.
So it wasn't like my dad wasgoing to be like, how are you
feeling about the death of yourmother, Alison?
It was more, let's not actuallytalk about it, but let's do
something together.
And we kind of worked throughour grief.
He taught me photography, hetaught me how to develop
negatives, and we looked at somany pictures of my parents and

(10:56):
that's what we did.
And then as far as technical, Imean, the camera that they gave
me was like a Canon, all manual.
So I had to learn photographymanually from day one.
and that's what I did.
And that's how I learned toshoot.
I started taking photo classesin high school.
all of my friends became mymodels and I did a lot of senior

(11:19):
photos and then I was hired toshoot a wedding, even though I
had never even been at a weddingbefore in my lifetime.
when I was 18.

So going to that first wedding, you said
earlier that like you wanted tocapture something that this
couple would.
have forever to show them likewhat it is that they truly have.
And, I shot weddings for 10years myself.
Like I know how difficult it canbe to just show up in a
location.
You've kind of built a rapportwith a couple, like you kind of

(11:46):
know who they are.
Maybe you've done theirengagement session.
You've had some conversationsback and forth with them, but
learning who all the people arein their life, that are
important, who are going to beat this wedding.
We know that maybe Uncle Bobisn't, like, so important, but,
like, we know that Mom and Dadare obviously important.
How do you ensure that you wouldcapture those people, in their
true element, in a way that, thecouple would want to look back

(12:08):
on in years?
how did you frame those weddingdays and the interactions
between the couple and theirfriends and family?

Yeah, that's a great question.
I mean, I'm a big proponent ofpeople watching.
I think that's half of thebattle.
I also randomly have, a prettysignificant hearing loss that
I've had since I was a baby.
So I'm a really good, like I canread lips and I am also so much
of what I'm doing is watchingyour body language.
So I think as hard as being hardof hearing is, it's definitely,

(12:38):
increased my visual of watchingpeople's body language, figuring
out who they are, how they'refeeling, what they're saying
versus what their body's doing.
And I was obviously watching thecouple, but I was always
watching to see how the parentsreacting.
a little fun fact about me, ifyou want to see me cry like a
small child, it's like, show meany parent that's like when the

(12:58):
Olympics were on cheering theirkids on, I just lose it because
I just think it's the mostbeautiful thing, probably
because I wish I had that right.
there's a deep part of me thatlike, especially this year,
having both of my parents nowgone, it's like, I truly wish
that I had that.
And I think I'm always lookingfor that at weddings.
I'm always attracted to just theorganic, beautiful love that

(13:19):
happens, and it doesn't alwayshappen.
And I'm not saying every singlewedding, but overall, I mean,
it's a pretty, it's Unbelievablething when you have family who
loves you and is supporting youand is sitting next to you.
and it's sometimes it's justthose little things of like the
way somebody looks And Isometimes I don't think that we
see it in our own lives becausewe're so busy and we're so

(13:39):
caught up in what's going on forourselves.
But I love being the person tobe able to capture the way that
dad is looking at his daughterfor a second.
You know, like for a briefsecond, just like that pride.
And love, because I know when mydad died this year, I was going
through photos, looking, justlooking at them and like, for
the first time, seeing the waythat he would look at me.

(14:01):
And it's like, in the moment,I'm thinking of like the grocery
list, the vacuuming, all theediting I have to do, everything
else that have go, like, and I'mnot actually, sometimes it's
very hard to be present in yourown life.
And so I love being the one thatcan be sort of the recorder of
other people's family membersand show them that they're
loved.
It makes a lot of sense in mybrain.

(14:22):
Hopefully I'm getting the wordsproperly.

having seen some of your images, I see it as
well.
But for those listening, like,practically, what does that look
like?
what do you think, Sets one ofyour wedding images apart from
anybody else.
Like visually, what makes yoursa signature, image?

I'm going to hope that it's going to be
something that makes you feelsomething, that like really
makes you feel something.
and sometimes it's just thistiniest little nuance, the way
that someone's holding your handor, that tiny little glance.
All of those little things Ithink are the big things, and
I'm hoping it's just truly theemotion and something that is

(15:03):
gonna make them feel like it'ssomething that I shot.
I'm not somebody that I couldsay has a crazy style or a
signature look.
I'm trying to keep everythingvery timeless so that it makes
sense.
10, 20 years down the road.
And it's not like, Oh, we gotmarried in the middle of the
Instagram filter phase, right?
Like I want these photos to makesense.
and because I've been in, atthis so long, I've seen all the

(15:25):
trends, Come and go.
And I think still what, is isthe thread for everything is
truly and simply the love andthe emotion.
So,

new photographer's portfolio, maybe
they just shot their first twoor three weddings.
What are the images that theydidn't get that you would?

Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, kudos to
going to shoot a wedding.
I think half the battle ishaving the confidence to stand
up there and do it.
Right.
and I think, you know, that ideawhere everyone else is doing it
better than me.
And sometimes you go in like,Google stalking a venue or
Google stalking a photographerthat you really like and like
I'm trying to emulate exactlywhat they shot.

(16:08):
But I had a photo class once andthey said to me, We could all be
shooting the exact same scene.
We're all going to shoot itdifferently because your life
experiences are going to giveyou lenses and a vision that are
different than the personsitting next to you.
With the same gear shooting thesame thing and I think it's
remembering that like obviouslyyou are attracted to photography

(16:29):
the art of photography For somereason you're picking up a
camera and I'm assuming it's notjust you know a job because
certainly it's a very Hard jobto do but you're picking up a
camera because you love it forsome reason and I think it's
drawing on What makes you youpersonally like?
Why are you picking up a camera?
And I think it's rememberingthat and it's not trying to copy

(16:50):
another photo that you saw orgoing off the Pinterest board
or, creating the image that's onthe website.
Like it just needs to come froma pure place.
And I think it will give you thelongevity in a career is truly
just being honest to who youare.

How long do you think it took you to find
that?

you have to remember that I started when the
internet was just a baby littlething.
So

you didn't have much to reference,

I did not have much to reference.
but then there was a time whereI got caught up in like, Oh
wait, I needed to look to seewhat everyone else is doing.
And so you do get lost along theway that's that confidence that
you have to build.
I barely sort of look at thingsnow in terms of like, what's
everyone else doing at thisvenue?
I'm sort of like, it's really,that's secondary to, I always
say that.
you could be the greatest, bestperson to create the most

(17:41):
beautiful light and know how tolike, light something amazingly
perfect.
But if your couple is standingthere like miserable, it doesn't
matter how great your lightingis.
really, truly what matters isthat you've caught a moment.
That's real.
Or you've, gotten your.
clients to be so comfortablethat they're just happy to be,
they're taking your direction.
and you're feeling somethingwith what you're taking photos

(18:03):
of.
think that that's like the mostimportant thing is really just
like how you're walking into awedding and how you're treating
people and the words you say arepowerful, over making sure
everything is proper andabsolutely perfect.
Not that exposure is notimportant, but like you don't
need to get so caught up in likeI have a three light setup all
time.

(18:24):
It's secondary

I've told this story on the podcast before that
the first wedding that I shot, Iwas so consumed with getting it
technically perfect that I shotthe whole first dance at a half
a second shutter speed, becauseI wanted the lowest like grain
like I wanted to shoot at thelowest ISO, and it was after I
sent a couple of those photos.
By the way.
almost all of them were unusablefrom their first dance and they

(18:49):
used the photo from a friend's2012 cell phone camera as their
like profile photo rather thanone of mine I immediately
realized, Oh, I'd rather take ablurry photo or a grainy photo
over a blurry photo any day ofthe week.
it really is the ends justifythe means when it comes to like
capturing that moment.
It doesn't matter what thetechnicals are.

(19:11):
They used us like they chose acell phone photo over mine.
You know what I mean?
And I think that that reallyhelped frame for me kind of
exactly what you're sayingthere.
It's like yeah, it's importantyeah, it's great to get a
technically exposed shot.
But at the end of the day if youdidn't get the moment Nobody's
gonna care.
Nobody's gonna remember thisphoto.
It's you wasted your timeessentially.
So And I only know this becauseI've listened to a number of

(19:35):
episodes, a podcast of yourstrying to prepare for this
interview.
But the entire time as a weddingphotographer, you had this kind
of looming cloud over your headwith health issues as well.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat and what that meant for you
as a wedding photographer?

yeah, so you should know okay, so my mom died
at When I was 14, but in thatsame year, five months prior to
her death at the age of 13, Iwas diagnosed with hypertrophic
cardiomyopathy, which is thesame disease that she had and
that took her life.
And so I was diagnosed.
She dies a few months later.

(20:12):
and I have always sort ofthought, okay, I'm not like when
I was diagnosed, they were like,you have the same heart as your
mother.
And as a 13 year old, I have noidea what that means, except
like now I've watched her die.
So she died at 42.
I always think I'm going to dieat 42.
And I'm shooting weddings with aheart disease.
I have a defibrillatorimplanted.
I'm shooting like there was,I've never actually shared this

(20:35):
story, but I had a wedding.
Um, Yeah.
in Bethlehem and then Maine.
And the day before the Bethlehemwedding in Pennsylvania, dropped
dead.
it was the exact same situationthat happened to me and my mom,
except cause she died in ourkitchen, with just her and I
together.
And I, tried to give her CPR andI had to call 911.
The same thing happened tomyself and my youngest son when

(20:57):
I took him to go get his braces.
Had the same deadly heartrhythm, but I had an ICD
implanted.
So I, lived and I still went thenext day and shot a wedding and
then drove to Maine and shotanother wedding.
so I did a lot of crazy things Iwas sick, I was sick, but I was
still shooting weddings.
I was shooting weddings upuntil, October 8th was the last

(21:19):
wedding I shot in 2022, andOctober 10th I was admitted to
the hospital to wait for a hearttransplant.

Oh my gosh.

So I know I didn't fill in a lot of the gaps
there, but I also have had twobrain tumors where I went blind,
and they weren't sure if I wasgoing to get my vision back.
that's the hard part aboutphotography.
I don't think they, or weddingphotography per se, because like
you're agreeing to be somewhere,years later, like a year, in a
year in advance.
It's like, yeah, I coulddefinitely be there.
And like the day that my daddied, I shot a wedding.
yeah, there's the hard partabout that.

(21:47):
That's the dark side

Okay, so.

I know.
Where do you want to go withthat?
I've totally lost the reins.

Okay, hold on.
So, uh, first.
I've rescheduled podcastinterviews because I've had a
headache.
And the fact that you're like,no, this is, I'm going to drive
and shoot weddings after the daythat I died is, incredible.
let's tackle the waking up blindpart first, because I would

(22:13):
imagine as a photographer,that's got to be pretty scary.
tell me about waking up andbeing blind.

Yeah, I had not been feeling well, but couldn't
really define why.
And then one day I literallywoke up and I could only see a
ninja slice in my vision.
And I remember saying to myhusband, I was like, I don't, I
feel like I can't see anything.
Like, I can't really see.
He's like, what are you talkingabout?
I was like, don't worry aboutit.
Cause I was like, maybe I'm justtired.

(22:41):
I'm like rubbing my eyes.
And then finally he's like, youknow what?
You need to go to the eyedoctor.
let's go to the eye doctor.
I'm downplaying.
I'm a really good down playerand toxic trait.
and I go and they do this testof like peripheral vision.
And usually you have like asmall, tiny little path.

(23:02):
It's completely black.
And the doctor was like, are youjoking?
I was like, joking about what?
He's like, You can't see.
I was like, no, I can't seeanything.
He's like, yeah, you need to goto the emergency.
Like, why are you here?
Go to the emergency room.
So my husband drove us to theemergency room and then they did
some cat scans and like, yeah,you have a golf sized, brain
tumor sitting on your opticnerve.
And I was like, no, I'm supposedto shoot a wedding this weekend.

(23:23):
they're like, yeah, if you don'ttake this out today, we can't
even guarantee at this point,you're going to get your sight
back.
And I was like, wait, what, whatare you talking about?
And so obviously I had to haveemergency brain surgery.
And then that tumor ended upcoming back five years later,
but it seemed to be in

So, so the same thing happened again.
You woke up again.
Um,

it didn't go blind the second time they were
constantly watching it and itjust started to grow back and
they were like, it's back.
So then the second time, not astraumatic, but I had to have
surgery again.
Yeah, casually.

Okay, I don't want you to downplay this as a
professional down player.
Okay, because, again, I canimagine, we'll get into the
heart, obviously, as well.
but the idea of losing sightwhen your job, your livelihood,
this thing that you've decidedto dedicate your life to.
Had to have been terrifying evenknow like what to ask Like how

(24:18):
did you prepare for that weddingbecause i'm assuming that you
didn't shoot that wedding youhad to get somebody else Okay.
Yeah, so

somebody else.
Yep.
so I was basically rolled intoemergency brain surgery and like
I got to meet the surgeon.
I couldn't see the surgeon, butshe held my hand and she was
like, we're going to do the bestwe can.
I, I can't guarantee you'regoing to get your sight back.
And I was like, listen, I waslike.
Okay.
even now it makes me cry.
I just, I don't want to die.
Like I have two young sons.
I'm trying to do everything Ican to be here for them this

(24:46):
poor woman was like, just camein to kind of like, give me the,
you know, we're going to do ourbest speech.
And I'm like, you don'tunderstand.
I have like a seven year old andI have an eight year old and I
need to be here for them.
And she was like, okay.
and then I was wheeled in and,and that was it.
And I remember the surgery was along time.
It was a long.
quite a few hours and it wasevening by the time I was rolled
out.
I think it was like probably themiddle of the night and my

(25:08):
family was only, I was in theICU so they were only allowed to
come in two at a time and theywere so afraid to be like, can
you see anything?
And I remember I opened my eyesand I could see the clock on the
wall And I remember like, it wasmy husband and my aunt who came
in and they were like, Oh myGod, you can see the, you can
like see something.
Everybody was, we all like wereso relieved.
I get super emotional talkingabout it now because it's just,

(25:30):
I don't even know how to explainwhat would have happened to my
life if it would have taken atotally different trajectory,
obviously, but.
But I survived.

loss that it seems.
so terrifying.
Like, there's this idea, Isuppose, that like, if you know
that it's coming, maybe you canprepare.
but, once it's gone, it's gone.
And, I don't know if it'sdifferent knowing that like, all
this happened in the course of,I'm guessing like 48 hours, when
you woke up to the time to whereyou were into surgery and all

(26:08):
that.
What did you think afterwards?
Did you think like,congratulations?
Like now I can complete mylife's mission of, capturing
these, moments, these memoriesfor others that was it just like
going back to work?
What, where were you at fromthere?

I mean, I took a couple weeks off because I had
to, because they had gonethrough my nose.
It was very Egyptian because ofobviously being on my, optic
nerve.
but then I landed back in thehospital with complications, but
eventually, yeah, I went back towork and I.
I mean, did it without missing abeat, which is kind of great.
And also kind of probablythere's some sort of diagnosis
in that, but I mean, I justthink that it's constantly a

(26:45):
reminder.
You do not know what the nextday is going to hold.
I mean, now more than ever, asthis, my story has progressed,
my life has progressed.
I just don't take stuff forgranted.
Like, it's just like, I ampresent and aware.
and grateful for every littlething.
Like for me, especially now postheart transplant, if I can say

(27:05):
good morning to my husband andmy kids and I could say, how was
your day at the end of it?
That is a great freaking day.
That is success.
That is, doesn't matter what'sgoing on with anything else in
my life.
If I get to talk to those threepeople in the same room, it's a
good day.

that, perfectly brings us into, your
new venture here, Bonus which Ihave right here, this new
magazine.
you touched upon the hearttransplant there.

Casually as one does, yes.

Casually.
Um, I don't know if we need toget into whole medical
background of that because, Ifeel like what we've learned so
far is, I mean, you pretty muchsummed it up really well right
there to being present and,trying to be there for your
people, like that's what makes agood day.
But I want to know, obviouslyyou talked about the heart
transplant, so that kind oftouches upon bonus days.

(27:55):
Tell me where this idea forbonus days came from and tell
me, what the magazine is.

Yeah.
So I'm so excited about this.
It's like a passion project andI could talk about it all day.
So how long do you have?

All day.

all day.
All right, good.
so when I was told that I neededa heart transplant, I was told I
had six months to live, and Ihad to sit through an intake
meeting.
Now, not everybody gets anintake meeting when they're told
they have a diagnosis like this.
And I remember thinking, and myhusband and I looking at each
other like, Well, that washorrible.
Maybe it's better if we justroll the dice to see how long
you live.
maybe this isn't the life thatyou are going to want.

(28:30):
which I know sounds ridiculous,but you had to be there in that
meeting.
And then once it happened, myFriends didn't know what to say
to me because honestly, I don'tthink unless you know somebody
that's been through transplantor unless you yourself have been
through it, all you know isprobably TV shows that you've
watched on like Grey's Anatomy.

Yep.

Yeah.
And it's not that it'sbeautiful, but it is hard.
The first year was the hardestyear of my life and nobody knew
what to say to me.
So they would say, Hey, Alison,just join a Facebook group.
So I was like, okay.
So I joined a Facebook group andit was horrible.
and I get it.
I mean, I know why everyone isupset and sad and miserable and
like, but there's so muchmisinformation and it was just
not for me.

(29:08):
And I couldn't at the point oflike one or two months post
transplant be at a spot where Iwas reading horrible outcomes
because I was terrified of whatmy life was going to look like
when I left those hospitaldoors.
And when you're in the hospitalfor days, it turns into weeks.
It turns into months.
You're scrolling your phone,watching everybody else live
their lives, seeminglyperfectly, which we know is not

(29:29):
true, but like, you know, you'rescrolling through everyone's
highlights and I'm sitting therein a hospital room or I'm
watching everybody out thewindow, living their life or I'm
reading magazines aboutcelebrities or I'm reading
articles about how to stayhealthy.
And I'm like, well, what aboutme?
Like I never really had thechoice.
So it was sort of like.
born with this thing.
And it doesn't mean that my lifeis terrible.

(29:50):
And I bet you there are a lot ofbeautiful stories out there.
So I was like, I love magazines.
I've been working in magazinesmy whole career.
I work for a local magazine hereand where I live that I love
that I work every month for.
I've had, the cover of MarthaStewart weddings.
I've been in brides national,like I've been in, you know,
flower, like I've been innational magazines, worked with

(30:11):
local magazines, love magazines.
I love the whole thing.
I'm also a kid.
Born in 1980.
So I love holding a magazine.
and I said to someone inJanuary, I'm thinking about
starting a magazine all abouttransplant chronic illness for
their caregivers, for donors anddonor families.
And she was like, I'll help youwith that.
And I was like, wait, really?

(30:31):
And so in January we starteddreaming about it.
She's a graphic designer, I'mnot a graphic designer.
She's amazing at it.
She's the one who did thatmagazine.
And I just started findingpeople that I knew, and putting
this together.
And so it's stories of peoplewho have been through hard
things, but beautiful thingshave come out of it.
So, and I'm not trying to makeit toxic positive, but I'm,

(30:54):
trying to show people that nomatter what your diagnosis is,
your life can absolutely stillbe beautiful.
If you want to be miserable.
Cool.
I get it.
You can be like that.
I love that for you, but youdon't have to be.
and I think that's what I wantedto share.
And again, if I was going to bepart of the transplant
community, I wanted to leave itbetter than when I found it.
And to me, my answer was amagazine.

(31:16):
So that's sort of what it wasbirthed out of.

Tell me about the title.

so bonus days, I have been counting every day
post transplant, a bonus day.
Cause I shouldn't be here.
Right.
And I am here.
I'm here because doctors andnurses are studied and put the
time in.
I'm here because someone saidyes when they clicked their
driver's license and theirfamily agreed to their wishes.

(31:41):
And so I call it a bonus day.
Today is bonus day 680 posttransplant.
I write it on a calendar everymorning and my husband will say,
Hey, happy bonus day.
So glad you're here.
and so that just felt like theperfect title.
and it doesn't have to be thatyou have to have a transplant or
some crazy, like every day couldbe a bonus day because we don't
know what tomorrow is going tobring.
So like, if you look at it asthis is amazing, I'm so glad to

(32:05):
be here today.
Sure.
Life could be falling apart inareas, but like, it's a
beautiful thing to be alive.
So that's where that name comesfrom.

one thing that struck me when, by the way, you
sent this to me, and thank youso much for this.
Going through here, I believeall of the images are done by
you, or the majority of thestories, the images are done by
you, and it's so interestingthat, like, I could see going to
a dark place very easily, havingto go through this, as you said,

(32:33):
Facebook groups are full ofthem, so obviously people can
relate to that, I would imagine,but the images that are in this
magazine have a A quality thatis, One, extremely powerful, but
also really vulnerable.
And I don't know if that's doneintentionally, if that's just

(32:53):
who you are as a photographer,but could you talk to me a
little bit about that?

Yeah, I mean, well, thank you for seeing that
in the work.
I mean, I like the cover girl.
she's amazing.
Did you read it?
I mean, it's just, yeah, well,thank you so much for reading
it.
And, I approached it delicatelybecause she is she graduated
high school with my oldest son.
So I could be her.
I could, I could be her mother.
Right.

(33:27):
it with somewhat of a smallunderstanding of what has
happened to them.
and I really want to capture itnot in like a, a false way, if
that makes sense.
So It's after like spending sometime with them, like even
yesterday, I drove to Brooklynand I was photographing an
incredible story of two friends.
One needed a liver.
The other one was her livingliver donor, in their 30s.

(33:49):
And we spent some time talkingbefore I just picked up a camera
because suddenly like for me,The camera is just a projection
of my body, like, it just feelslike part of me, but it becomes
this thing that's between us,between me and the person I'm
photographing.
So it's like, how do I make thisobject that is obviously
necessary to take a photo kindof disappear?

(34:10):
And I don't know if you've ever,like, experienced that or
thought that way, but like, soI'm just trying to be like, hey,
I'm like honoring you and yourstory and like wanting to get to
know you and show you in abeautiful light.
And I just want to see like,everyone wants to be seen.
Everyone wants to be seen andloved for who they are for all
of it.
And I think if you can reachthat point with your clients or

(34:32):
the people that are standing infront of your camera, going to
have a beautiful imageregardless of.
the location is insane or thelighting is absolutely perfect.
But if you get to a point whereyou can truly see who your
client is, you're going to

How do we do that?
You had said like, spend sometime get to know them and one I
absolutely Resonate with that.
That's actually why I switchedto Fuji Just so that I would
have a smaller camera in frontof my face.
That wouldn't be so intrusiveand it was very helpful that way
but like at a more personallevel Would you do this at
weddings as well likepractically What does this look

(35:06):
like?
Is it 10 minutes together?
Is it 30 minutes?
Is it Talking about ourvulnerabilities?
Is it asking them their deepestdarkest secrets?
how do you break down thosewalls?

mean, that's a great question.
I mean, I think it truly startsfrom the minute you speak to a
potential client.
And most importantly, it alsostarts within the minute you
walk into bridal prep or,whatever you're walking into to
photograph and the energy thatyou're putting out.
a lot of times clients will say,you were so calming, thank you
so much for being so calm andlike this chaos of a day,

(35:36):
because like, especially weddingphotography, like I'm hanging
out with them all day.
Like I'm the person probablystanding next to them more than
anybody else besides their,partner.

You also know them the least like compared to
everybody at their wedding day,it's so weird

Yes, I know it is, and I think I draw upon body
language.
I put my story out there, whichwas terrifying, which I haven't
always done, but I have sorecently, and I find that just
being authentically who I am.
I had a client last year whosaid to me, the pictures you
take are absolutely incredible.
And this is why we hired you.
But You are more powerful injust being who you are than you

(36:10):
are in the photos you take and Ijust thought that I like that
stuck with me so much and that'severybody right you have your
stories you have what has madeyou who you are and why you're
sitting here right now andthat's beautiful and that's
powerful because like again wecould all be looking at the same
thing and see it a hundredthousand different ways because
of your experiences and who youwere as a kid and I think it's

(36:31):
truly just Not being ashamed ofthat.
If that makes sense.
Yeah.

does and I appreciate you sharing that but
I also want to ask because likewe don't really talk a lot about
gear here on the podcast becauseas you know, it's like the gear,
it matters so much and then itdoesn't really matter.
I know that you also shoot a lotof GFX you shoot, medium format
with And in my head, my firstthought was, well, that makes
the camera bigger right like ifthe majority of images are going

(36:56):
to be seen on a screen.
Does that really matter?
I haven't personally shotanything GFX.
So like, can you talk about thata bit?
Because that does introduce awhole nother role there to this
equation of trying to connectwith somebody, but then also
having this, relatively largecamera in front of their face,
which honestly is probably thesame size as any full frame,
DSLR camera.

(37:16):
But, yeah, what does that meanfor you in your photography?

Yeah.
Well, first of all, I mean, Ilove Fujifilm.
I fell in love with Fujifilmsimply for the science, the
color science and how beautifulit is, how easy it was to shoot.
intuitive all the buttons were.
But for me, when I knew thatthey were coming out with a
medium format, I was like, Oh, Ihave to try this.
So I picked it up and, I fell inlove.
And I think for me, what I lovespecifically about the GFX is I

(37:42):
love the way the medium formatpictures look.
And it gives me a little bit ofa difference between everybody
else who's maybe shooting thesame gear, right?
There are a lot of people whoare shooting full frame.
Canon, Nikon, you know, all thatstuff, Sony, but there's
something very different aboutthe GFX and it has that depth
and that grit and just a littlebit more of that, like artsy

(38:03):
ness that I crave in my imagesthat kind of give it more of
that, what I hope and what I seeit as of a soul or like a
feeling.
and I mean, it's stillrelatively small, obviously it's
not as small as like the X T5 orlike My beloved X 100 series,
but it is my absolute favorite.
You need to try it.
I don't know if which camerasystem like stores are near you,

(38:25):
but you need to go and make themto get it so you can try it.

Okay, well, I take that back.
I guess I have shot a fewimages, I guess, in that sense,
like at a camera store, butnothing like out in the field.
But I just, I shoot, I stillhave two X Pro2s, and I hope
that I'm buried with thesecameras because, like, I love
them so much.
And, When the X100V first cameout, I, pre ordered it and I got
it and I loved it.

(38:49):
And I feel like there was justthis time in my life, through
the pandemic where, like, I justfelt my most creative self.
I don't know if it was because,like, we had the space of not
shooting weddings and you justneeded to shoot something or
what, but it's like I ended upselling it because, well the
postcard that I sent you withthe to create those, I call
them, just like a photo stitchas you saw, right?

(39:09):
To create those, you need alittle bit longer of a focal
length, so I thought like, I'lljust go back to my X Pro2s.
So I sold it like a big dummy.
Literally the next day, thewhole world is like, what's
this?
And then prices skyrocketed.
But anyway, and now I can't getmy hand on another one.
but for the X Pro2, it's like, Ilove the range finder feel.
And it's like, I would love toget my hands on a 50R, but

(39:30):
that's discontinued now andthat's older technology and I
try to keep telling myself, Iremember going from crop sensor
Canon, like the 40D to the 5DMark II.
Thinking, Oh, when I go fullframe, it's just going to blow
my mind.
the quality of my images aregoing to like, it's going to be
amazing.
And I was still taking the exactsame photos.
there was a little bit more,depth.

(39:51):
obviously it was wider, butfundamentally they were the same
photos.
And I'm nervous that, I'd makethe investment into the GFX
system.
And still get the same photos.

I

you feel that way at all?

I didn't.
I mean, cause right now when Ishoot a wedding, I have a GFX on
one hip and the XT five on theother.

Oh, really?
And you can combine the twoimages together and they work?

They work.
They were great.
But yeah, I mean the X pros, Imean, I love that.
I can totally see why you loveyour X pro two, as you said, the
pro two.
Yeah.
yeah.
I mean, for me, the GFX givesme, like if you're looking at
Carolyn's piece in thatmagazine, that open, to spread.
Well, first of all, that imageof her in her wheelchair, I
love, love, love.
And then that one where there'sflowers on her face and it's a

(40:35):
side profile.
And then there's like a, quote,that to me screams medium format
GFX.
I don't think I could havegotten it with any other camera.
and I love the company itself.
I mean, and that's a big thing.
I want to know who I'm giving mymoney to, and I want to believe
in what they believe in and Ido, and they're amazing.
So.
Fujifilm for life.

Fujifilm for life.
I was just thinking aboutgetting that tattoo, actually.

Oh, amazing.

No, I'm just kidding.

On your forehead,

maybe?
Yeah,

do it.
Yeah, perfect.

I want to ask another question about,
Caroline's piece here, because,on the cover, she's sitting in
the back of a truck, right?
She's not, she doesn't have herwheelchair.
And on the inside, just aboutall the photos.
She is in her wheelchair.
So, can you talk a little bitabout, well, I guess one, I
don't really know her mobility.
I don't know if she uses thewheelchair just for assistance
or if she like requires it.
But, can you talk about like thebalance of highlighting this

(41:31):
thing that makes you differentbeing the wheelchair, but also
not letting it Define you as aperson through images because
obviously when you go through amagazine that's going to be the
first thing that you look at andyou're going to make a
subconscious, yeah opinion likebased on that right away.
So balance that?

Yeah.
So she is permanently disabledfrom, she was on ECMO, which is
a life saving, End of life thingthat they do, she ended up
having a spinal stroke and beingcompletely paralyzed from her
hips down.
And then she had to get atransplant like the next day.
so when we were thinking aboutcover, I had this idea of a
truck, but I was so like, Iwasn't sure how she was going to

(42:10):
feel first of all, not being inher chair.
And if.
I didn't want to offend her inany way.
And because I've never reallyexperienced anybody firsthand in
a wheelchair, I was reallycareful.
but I asked her, I ended upbeing like, Hey, I was like, are
you comfortable with this?
There's no wrong answer.
If you're not.
We won't do this.
She's like, Oh, absolutely.
Because she is out of her chairwhen she goes to PT, but it's

(42:32):
not like she can, she can'twalk.
so she was comfortable.
And I just asked her, I didn'tlike come out of the gate and
ask her, I was like, we need arapport.
I need her to trust me.
And then I asked, but I almostput the picture of her in her
wheelchair on the cover.
I loved it so much.
And the only reason I didn't isbecause it took forever to find
a truck.
Like if I could just explain toyou how hard it was to find a

(42:52):
truck and then I had to get aflorist.
but I could have totally noteven done any of that and been
happy with everything else.
but that was the only reason Iwent with it just because
procuring the truck was a task.
But it's honestly just creatinga moment where you can feel, you
can feel like you can ask thosevulnerable questions.

Mm hmm.
Yeah, I think that's somethingthat I would have a delicate
line, towing.
do you think that theexperiences that you've gone
through have helped you tonavigate that better?
Knowing, like, what is personalto me and what is not?
How I want to define myself?

Yeah, I definitely do.
Because, and even before I hadwritten her story, I had said,
Hey, just so you know, we'regoing to, set up this interview.
And I was like, I am going totouch on what has happened to
you, but it does not define whoyou Carolyn are.
Just so you know, I'm not goingto retraumatize you and make you
tell me everything.
Cause I can read these thingsand interviews and I'll ask you
if I need to fill in any blanks,but I went at it like, yeah, you

(43:49):
had a heart transplant.
Yes.
You're in a wheelchair.
Yes.
You've had cancer.
It doesn't define who you are asa person.
And I think that's the big part.
It's like, I am not defined bymy heart transplant or the death
of my parents or the braintumor.
Like.
It has made me who I am.
It does not define who I am.
and I think that's a big part inthe chronic illness community.

(44:11):
It's like, we have this thingthat affects us every hour of
every day, but it does not makeus who we are.
And that goes back to the fullcircle of, everyone wants to be
seen for exactly who they are,and loved and appreciated for
who they

that's what people want to do.
I think that's whatphotographers want to do as
well.
Like, that's what they want tocapture.
People want that.
Photographers want to capturethat.
but it's one thing to be able tocapture.
I appreciate you sharing all ofyour tips as far as like how to
build a connection and, choosingthe right gear for you and, all
of these things.
but like you also turned thisinto a magazine, right?
you are taking.

(44:44):
the life experiences and the,personal pain that you've been
through as well as others andare using it to change the
world, to make other people feelbetter, about their situation,
like, what tips do you have formaybe listeners to do the same
thing if maybe a magazine isn'tright for them, like, does it
have to be a magazine, whatcould we do with our images?

It could be anything and it could be blogs.
It could be Instagrams.
It could be, you know, likethink about humans of New York
and how that turned intosomething so beautiful.
I mean, I think it's truly justnot shying away because for so
long, for so many years I waslike, if anybody finds out that
I need a heart transplant no oneis going to hire me or if
anybody finds out that I have aheart disease, no one's going
to, I hid all of that.

(45:27):
And that is such a big part ofwho I am and why I am the way I
am.
Yeah.
And I.
Just like we want to be seen forwho I am as a whole and so I
think if you can just Literallyif you like, you know, what's
really important to me andwhatever life experience you've
had Think about how you can makethat situation better.
And then that's where I you knowHave come up with the magazine

(45:47):
idea just from the hours ofbeing in the hospital But like
there's lots of ways to make theworld a better place And I think
it's really thinking about whatwould make the situation that
I'm very knowledgeable in betterSo I hope that answers your
question, but I think it's it'sokay

no one size fits all answer, right?
There's no, like, oh, we'll justbring up some 4x6s and give them
to everybody.
it truly is a personal journey.
And, like, the question that Iasked you was very direct.
But, the answer had to be, abit, larger than that.
Uh, so, no, I, I do appreciatethat.
And I think that, that listenersare gonna, Take that for what
they will and they should, Iwant people to also use their

(46:23):
cameras to make a change in theworld and hearing from people
who have done it is what I loveso much about this podcast,
being able to have theseconversations because sometimes
it does feel big, to be able todo that.
Sometimes it feels scary to,approach somebody or, or Me
personally, I have this feelingof like, who am I?
who am I to tell this story?
this isn't my story to tell,this is somebody else's story.

(46:45):
Which is why I like doing thepodcast.
I want you to tell your story.
You know, not me.
I want you to tell the story.
But I feel like this is kind ofmy way of doing it.
Because it's like, The podcastis more of a platform than to
allow others to share theirstory, which can then help
others rather than me beinglike, Hey, guess who I found
today and guess what they wentthrough.

(47:06):
And here's what they did.
Now you go do the same.
Cause that's not as fun.
That's not impactful.
That's not as important.
And then I don't get to have funconversations like this with
awesome people like yourself.
So, you did answer the question.
So that was perfect.
Having never had a transplantmyself, having never been in the
situations that you have beenin, or created a magazine, I'm
wondering is there anything thatI didn't ask you today that you

(47:29):
want to make sure that listenersknow?

I think it was a great interview.
hopefully I answered it properlyBut I think that like honestly,
it's truly just following yourheart and following What you are
truly passionate about.
I mean, life is so short.
And so if you have a dream, gofor it and maybe it won't go
anywhere.
And again, maybe my magazinewon't go anywhere.
I've committed to doing four,like a whole year of it and

(47:51):
seeing if I can get it off theground.
but I'm so glad I'm doing it.
And I think that's the thing.
It's just like, it's alwaysgoing to be a no, if you don't
try.
So if you have something that'ssort of like, eating inside of
you that you're like, I reallywant to do this.
I encourage you to just do it.
Life is short.
You don't know.
And you never know who needs thethings that you're going to put
out there.
So like, just go for it.

(48:12):
what's the worst that canhappen?
Somebody tells you, no, that'sokay.
Big deal.

The answer is always going to be no if you
don't go for it.
that's going to be my tattooinstead.
That's what I'm going to get.
That was great.
thank you for that.
I know that people are listeningand they're like, Wow, she's
gone through some crazy stuff.
I want to see some of theseimages.
Alison, where is the best placeto find you online so that
listeners can do that?

Yeah.
Oh well, thanks.
my wedding website is Alisonconlin.com, one L and Alison and
bonus days.
the website is bonus daysmag.com and my Instagram is
Alison Conklin.

All right, next up, I chat with Jeff
Larson, a street photographerand host of the YouTube show,
The Crit House.
Today, Jeff is going to teachyou the value of thoughtful self
analysis and why taking the timeto reflect on your photos before
sharing them can grow a deeperunderstanding of your artistic
choices.
You're going to learn thesignificance of receiving
specific feedback and why askingfor detailed critiques can help

(49:10):
you better grasp how your workis perceived and will quickly
identify areas of improvement.
Jeff also shares the importanceof a trusted photography
community, explaining how bothonline and in person groups
offer different but veryvaluable critiques and diverse
learning opportunities that areessential for collaborative
growth and becoming a betterphotographer.

(49:33):
Jeff, why don't you tell me,when did you know that
photography was first going toplay an important role in your
life?

Jeff Larason (49:38):
It was a process.
I didn't really start, takingpictures until I was 20.
I mean, except for snappingfamily stuff and not really
thinking about it.
But, somebody gave me a camerawhen I was heading to London for
a trip for the summer, when Iwas in college.
And, when I was there, there wasa darkroom class that I took.
And I had just been wanderingaround the streets of London and

(50:00):
the guy who was running thedarkroom looked at my images and
said, Oh, you should, take alook at these photographers.
And It was, Andre Cortes and,Robert Frank and Henri Cartier
Bresson.
So I went to the library andlooked them up and, at that
point it was just I was justknocked out by the, that there
could be art.
I was not aware of thatphotography could be artistic.

(50:21):
I grew up on Sports Illustratedand National Geographic and that
geo has some lovely images, butit was not what I had thought of
as art.
and I think that was the momentthat sort of changed things for
me, but it was a long progressbefore I started really taking
it seriously as an art form.

What were you going to school for at that
time?
I was

in communications, radio and television, which is
what most of my career has been,in radio and television.
But, class that I was taking inLondon was unrelated to what I
was actually studying incollege.

So why is that?
I'm always excited to learnabout that at that point.
Was that just something that youthought this might be
interesting?
Let me get these credit hours orwas there something a little bit
deeper?
I mean, you had photography kindof all of your life, but I'm
assuming by this point, ithadn't meant anything to you
until this

well, quite frankly, I'm not that deep of a
person, so it wasn't anythingdeeper.
I think it was just that thatlooked like a fun class to take.
And I had a camera, and I wasenjoying walking around taking
pictures in London, and it justseemed like a fun thing to do,
so I took it, and it just sortof sparked something in in me
that I didn't realize was goingto be there.

Yeah.
What were those earliest dayslike for you?
Because I'm sure that you'reshooting film at the time.
Most cameras, did not have automodes, all these program modes
and whatnot.
So you had to learn how to use acamera.
Was that a relatively easyprocess for you?

I did what I knew how to do with the camera and
yeah, it was all manual.
I had an old Ricoh.
I couldn't even tell you what itwas, but it was all manual and I
still shoot manual to this day.
All of my cameras have all thebells and whistles, but I shoot
as much manual focus as I can aswell.
that's just the way I learned.
it was a dark room class, so itwas interesting to, learn sort
of what I call the fundamentalsof photography.

(51:58):
it's a little bit like, withPhotoshop and Lightroom these
days, I had a background in darkroom, which allowed me to at
least understand dodging andburning and the things that, you
did back in the dark room withyour hands and wands, in the
light, trying to make sure youwere getting things right.
So it was a good way to learnthe fundamentals of photography
by starting out with the basicsand not having all the bells and

(52:20):
whistles that we have thesedays.

Of course, your first few photos that came
out, did you just knock them outof the park or were there, so
was quite a learning curve therefor you.
Where do you think you struggledmost?

I never really thought of it as struggling.
I just enjoyed the process oftaking pictures and, through the
summertime, there was, I think,one picture that I took that
lasts to this day.
I have no idea how many rolls offilm I took that summer, but it
was, probably 100 or so.
And, you just learn.
You just kind of sort of growand just assume that, you enjoy

(52:51):
the process.
I didn't know whether I wassupposed to be good or bad.
No one was judging my work.
No one was seeing it.
It was just me.
And so, I didn't feel like I wasstruggling or trying to, rate
myself against anybody elsebecause I was taking pictures
and enjoying them and seeingwhat came out of it and at the
other end and then they wentinto a box and I didn't show
them to anybody because they hadalready done the job for me,

(53:12):
which is to give me pleasurewith the print.

Really?
So you were taking these photosand you didn't show anybody?
Nobody knew that you were rathertaking photos?

That's kind of the trajectory of my career.
I spent 30 or 40 yearsphotographing and not showing my
pictures to anybody.
My best friend in the worlddidn't even realize that I was,
a photographer.
and it wasn't, it wasn't until,another friend of mine who I
talked to about photography awriter.
She was an author and haseditors and people look at her
work and give her feedback onher, the novels that she writes.

(53:45):
And she said to me, you shouldshow this to somebody so that
you can get some context towhether these are good or not.
And so I did.
I finally, went and I guy whowas a professor of, I think at
the New England School ofPhotography at the time.
And, And we sat down to coffeeand he looked at him and said,
well, this is good and this isbad and this is, here are some
things you want to think aboutand here are some things that

(54:06):
might move you in the rightdirection.
And I listened to him.
That was really the moment thatmy eyes opened up to what you
need to do to become a betterphotographer.
And that's also the genesis ofthe YouTube program that I have,
the Crit House.
Because again, I think thatthere are a lot of people out
there who are taking pictures,capturing images, creating, who

(54:30):
don't have, an understanding ofhow important it is to show your
work to others and to getconstructive, healthy,
thoughtful feedback.
And that's not Instagram.
Instagram, you show your work,people like it and maybe you get
likes and maybe you don't,that's not constructive
feedback.

(54:50):
Feedback is sitting down,looking at a body of work and
talking through what's there andwhat's not there and what it
means and what it doesn't mean.

I'm really excited to talk more about The
Crit House because, I've watchednumber of videos on YouTube and
really enjoy it, but I want tokind of go back to this idea of
not showing any of your photosbecause there's a lot of
listeners who there's the twocamps, right?
You either show every singlephoto that you've ever taken on
Instagram because that's whateverybody does.
You don't show any of the photosbecause maybe it's self doubt.

(55:23):
Maybe it's, whatever it is.
Obviously there was no Instagramat the time for you, but what
was it that kept you fromshowing photos to others?

There was no one to show it to, It was me and I
was married to somebody and thenshe looked at him and, she
appreciated him.
But it was a hobby.
It was something that I did thatI cared about.
I spent a lot of time looking atother photographers.
I went out and, read books andsaw photography of the greats.
I got an understanding of who,had meaning in the world of

(55:51):
photography and in the artworld.
And, I tried to integrate thatinto my photography, but it
just, it was never that,interesting to me to show it.
And I mean back then I mean,this is the 80s, right?
In the 90s through the processas well there weren't avenues to
show it as much there were likephoto clubs that were out there
but they never really appealedto me for whatever reason.

(56:14):
I went to maybe a couple ofphoto club meetings they were
judging and sort of ratingthings in a way that just it
didn't resonate with me, so Ididn't show it.
I didn't show the work until Ihad the opportunity for somebody
to give me, good, constructive,thoughtful feedback.

So if, living in today's world with the
availability of sharing yourphotos literally everywhere,
almost instantaneously, Wouldyou change anything about your
journey in photography?
Would you continue to keep thosephotos like your own until you
got to the point to where youdid, or do you suggest to new
photographers today to shareyour work as fast as possible?

I don't know, it's hard to put yourself in a
position that you aren'tactually going to be in.
I think I benefited from notshowing everything that went out
there, and I benefited from nottrying to make every image
something that is going to getlikes.
I just, I took pictures and I,the ones that I liked, I liked.
So there was sort of that selfanalysis that you allow
yourself.
You're less concerned about thefeedback from other people.

(57:09):
Which is weird because I'mtalking about how important it
is to get feedback from otherpeople.
but it's just, it's, I loveInstagram, I mean I'm all over
Instagram, I kind of go back andforth about how much I post on
it, but one of the problems withInstagram is that I don't spend
a lot of time with the imagesthat I see.
Even my own, I post and I'mscrolling through and, spend a
half a second on images, if it'sa real banger, I might go, Oh, I

(57:31):
like that and click and thenmove on to the next one.
And that for me, isn't the bestway to look at great photography
and to think about it and tounderstand it.
For me, it's looking at booksand going to shows and talking
to people.
That's where you start to,understand photography at a
higher level than you do onInstagram.
And again, I'm an Instagram fan.
I'm not trying to diminishInstagram, but I think it has
its positives and its negativesand, that It's, a place where

(57:54):
you quickly look at images is Ithink one of the problems

Yeah, will agree with that as well.
So then, if photography for youat the time hobby, and just
something that you did for funin your spare time, what was the
reason for you to want to seekout specific feedback and get
better?
Because I know, as much as Ilike, cooking or lawn care, I'm
going to get to a certain pointand then that's all that I need,

(58:19):
because if I spend more time onit, it's going to, consume
everything.
What was it about that moment intime or photography where you
said, I

Well, I think it's I think it had something to do
with wanting to see where myphotography stood in the greater
world.
and again, this is notinstagram.
This is sort of saying.
Okay.
Well the great photographers areout there and they are great for
a reason Why is that?
And how can I, come closer tobeing great?

(58:47):
Now I know I'm not great.
I'm an okay photographer, for anamateur.
I've been doing it for 40 years.
So a certain amount of time youstart to develop some skill and
you get better.
But I'm, never going to begreat, but I want to understand,
I wanted to understand how to dothings better and also, by the
way, not just create betterphotographs, but create, meaning

(59:10):
behind and not only an image,but a body of work and also to
sort of understand what art is.
what does it mean to create art?
Because I, I didn't grow up in aworld where art was an important
part.
You know, I watched sports, andI, worked and raised a family,
but I never understood art.

(59:31):
And so a lot of what I wastrying to do was to understand
art and meaning.
I still struggle with that.
I still struggle with trying tounderstand, how my photography
can have more meaning andemotional impact on not only
people, but on myself, you know,that has some meaning to myself.
And that's, where I wrestle withit now.
I don't wrestle with what the fstop should be, or depth of

(59:54):
field, or how I process animage.
I am wrestling at this point inmy photographic life with trying
to have it mean something, haveit mean something to other
people as well as myself.

Raymond Hatfield (01:00:07):
So when you look at your earliest days,
let's say pre, sharing You hadthat body of work and then
everything since then as well.
How have your photos grown moremeaning since then in what ways
were they lacking before?

Jeff Larason (01:00:22):
Well, I think before, when you start out, or
at least when I started out, andnot having an understanding of
art, I just took pictures.
I just, you know, said, Oh, thisis pretty.
I like this, or I like the line,or there was something that,
about the composition or themoment or whatever I just liked
it.
I did that and I did that a lot.
I mean, got a lot of picturesthat I liked, but then you sit

(01:00:43):
down and say, Okay, well, Imight want to create a book, or
I might want to put a show onthe wall, and do that is like
the next step because now ifyou're gonna put a show on the
wall I mean you can just put abunch of 15 really good pictures
on the wall or whatever thenumber is and they're 15 good
pictures, but Is there a thread?
of what those images say?

(01:01:05):
Are they sequenced in a way thatwork together?
Is there something thatcommunicates to people the
import?
Or is there anything importantin what you're saying in those
images?
And for the most part, for thefirst couple of decades that I
was taking pictures, there wasno meaning to it.
I was just taking pictures.
I was going around and I wasdocumenting my life.
I actually at some point thoughtof it as sort of my own personal

(01:01:26):
visual journal.
There was nothing importantabout it to anybody about
myself.
so unless if I'm gonna putsomething on the wall, the only
person who's gonna come to lookat it is me.
And, my mom and my son no oneelse is gonna care.
So I needed to try tounderstand, if I was going to,
rise up to the next level, howdo you decide what your

(01:01:46):
photography means?
And then how do you create moreso that there's meaning to it?
That's where I am.
I'm still wrestling with that.
I'm still trying to figure outBecause that's where you become
great, right?
Those are the greatphotographers.
They have meaning.
They have, there's somethingthat you look at them and you
say, oh, that's not only a greatphotograph, but it hits me in my
heart.

What have you come up with?
How have you gotten closer tothere?
Look, obviously we're not there,right?
Photography is always a journey.
But how have you got theretoday?

I'm wrestling with it.
I have Two or three projectsthat I'm sort of working on
broadly.
There's a street that runsthrough Boston.
I live in the Boston area.
The Mass Ave runs from,Dorchester through the south
end, through Back Bay intoCambridge and out to the western
suburbs.
It runs through, some of themost run down, poor, decrepit

(01:02:39):
parts of the city.
And then also, just a mile away,go through some of the
wealthiest neighborhoods inAmerica, in the world.
And that street is a fascinatingstreet for me.
And I have been spending timetrying to show that street.
It's not a documentary product.
it's a sort of an artisticrepresentation of it.

(01:02:59):
But that's one of the thingsthat I'm doing.
And then I'm, doing anotherproject that is now landscape,
which is completely new for me.
Cause I've never.
I've never captured landscapebefore.
I've always been a street guy.
but now living in the westernsuburbs and I look out my window
here there are trees and everyonce in a while a fox and a
coyote will run through that'snot street photography anymore.
So, I've been working somethingthat is, at least has some

(01:03:23):
meaning to me on the landscapeside and I haven't figured out
how to do it tell a story withit beyond how it, that it makes
me, gives me some pleasure.
So for that particular project,I don't know.
I like the pictures.
I haven't figured out themeaning of it yet.

Right.
Well, hopefully you can figurethat out soon.
know, as you were saying that, Icould only draw parallels to a
similar situation that I'm inright now.
and feeling a very similar wayof like, but what does this
mean?
what does it, like, does thisphoto look nice?
Yeah, but what's it for, and Ifeel like with landscape, it's
very hard not having people inthe photos.

(01:04:00):
In fact, every time chat with alandscape photographer, I'm
like, how do you add emotionwhen there's no smiling faces or
eyes, you know, that we can justnaturally as humans draw into
and even they struggle like it'sa hard thing.
So I wouldn't beat yourself

You know, I'm not, I'm very much enjoying the
process.
That's one of the nice thingsabout being old, is you start to
appreciate that things don'thave to be done now.
I mean, I don't have that muchtime left on this earth, if it
doesn't get done, it won't getdone, but I'm enjoying the
process.
I'm still enjoying the processof documenting the Mass Ave
project when I can.

(01:04:34):
So I've got, things that I dophotographically that I, am
enjoying.
And I'm allowing myself thespace to be able to figure it
out, maybe I'll never figure itout.
Maybe there's nothing there, butat the moment it's fun.
And if nothing happens with it,I'll move on to the next thing.

Hey, fun is, I think, more than half the battle
in photography.
Cause if you have a reason toget out, it's always fun, right?

thing that I'm doing right now, it's a
nighttime thing.
And I only do it when there's afull moon.
and it's, it documents the fullmoon, And so, I'm getting up at
three or four in the morning andgoing out into, I was just out
in Nevada last week.
I was out in the desert inNevada at three o'clock in the
morning shooting the full moon.
don't know if the photography isany good, but it was a
fascinating, almost, this isgoing to sound strange, but it

(01:05:20):
was almost a spiritual sort ofoccasion.
I'm sitting in the desert.
30 miles outside of Reno, in thepitch dark, except for the
incredible luminance of the moonshining down on this valley
where I can see nothing butmountains around me.
There's no lights of the city.
There's nothing else except forthe moon and the desert and me.

(01:05:42):
And that was, pretty cool,

Very different than Boston.

Very different than Boston.

Yeah, of course.
Let's talk a little bit aboutthe Crit House here because, as
I said, I've seen a number ofthe videos, there's a lot to
love about it.
I think one, for a lot ofphotographers, what I found just
in the listeners is that a lotof people love to watch YouTube
videos because, there's alwaysthe complaint of I don't have
enough time, I don't have enoughtime to go out and shoot.
I don't have enough time forthis and that, but by being able

(01:06:10):
to watch others go through it,there's almost this therapeutic
element to it as if they canlive vicariously through these
people.
Right?
And as somebody who I don'treally get my images critiqued,
I've just always been like.
I take the photo.
I like the photo.
The photo is done, but I hearwhat you're saying of how
important it is to get othereyes on your photos.

(01:06:31):
So watching, you talk to othersabout their work, watching
others talk about otherphotographers, and the work and,
the five images that they loveas well.
It's such an interestingconversation that like isn't
typically.
happening on YouTube andespecially in the photography
space and most critiques if theyare on YouTube are like three
hours long, you know, yourvideos are easy to consume,

(01:06:52):
watch and get an understanding.
Like for me, they get me excitedto go out and shoot.
see it, I get the inspiration,and now I want to go out and
shoot and be a betterphotographer.
and I think that people needmore, of this.
I'm excited, to have morepeople, obviously check out your
work, put all the links in theshow notes for sure.
But tell me, somebody, again,who didn't share your work for
so long, and now you're almostlike this evangelist for, like,

(01:07:14):
getting people to look at yourwork.
what have you discovered about,the work of other photographers
by hearing, or just by being apart of these conversations?

I have started to understand more the language of
photography that being able tocommunicate about what your
images are and what they mean isimportant for viewers to
understand the context.
I have said this myself and Iheard other, people say it, and

(01:07:43):
it's wrong, that I just want myphotographs to stand on their
own.
I don't want to have tocommunicate, which would be
great, which would be great ifyou were that great, but the
reality of it is when somebodycomes in to see your pictures.
They want to have context.
They want to have anunderstanding of what are you
showing and that doesn't meanyou have to write a book about
it, but you need to be able tocommunicate and to let people

(01:08:06):
know Here's Here's what you'reseeing so that you give them a
push in the right direction, andthe ability to be able to
communicate that is veryimportant to being able to make
a good photograph and a goodbody of work.
I've also learned that editingis critical to success.

(01:08:27):
A lot of people put just, theyput photographs out, they put
photographs out, I don't meanediting in terms of like
processing and Photoshop, I meanediting in terms of not showing
images and deciding that thisone is not one that fits within
this body of work.
if you're creating a book oryou're creating a zine or you're
putting a show on the wall orwhatever it is, that process of
editing deciding what's in andwhat's out teaches you so much

(01:08:52):
about your own, not only yourown photography but you as a
person and as a photographer aswell.
And again, so it's not, so much,you know, what I've learned
about taking a picture.
It's what I've learned about,that those decisions and
actively making those decisionsabout your own work, is really
what makes you a goodphotographer.
And that's part of the processof getting feedback from other

(01:09:13):
people because people tell you,well, this one works for me and
doesn't work for me.
And why?
And that helps you to understandyour own photography.
One of the greatest things I'veever enjoyed about photography
is when somebody looks at aphotograph and sees something in
it that I never saw in my ownphotograph.
You look at it and you're, Oh,you've spent hours either in the

(01:09:34):
dark room where you've spenttime in light room and then
Photoshop and, you know, thisimage, down to the pixel.
And then somebody comes alongand says something about it, and
you go Yeah.
that's fantastic I hadn't seenthat in my own image and it
helps you and it helps youunderstand the context the way
that the rest of the world looksat what you have taken.
Because once you've taken thepicture, and once you've put it

(01:09:56):
out there in the world, it's nolonger yours.
Other people are going tointerpret it and make decisions
about it.
And so that's part of thatprocess of getting feedback is
preparing to show it out to therest of the world.

This is an area of photography that I've
never explored before, andclearly need to, I love that
idea though, that once you put aphotograph out into the world,
that's no longer yours.
And it reminds me of, I thinkit's that Ansel Adams quote of,
there's two people in everyphoto, the photographer and the
viewer.
And it's interesting to thinkabout, cause It changes at some
point, right?
Cause photography is very much asolo thing.

(01:10:28):
I came from the world of likecinematography where it's like a
team effort and then you getinto photography.
It's very solo.
But the aspect of the sharing,the work of getting work out
there, once again, it becomescollaborative.
And that, can be difficultbecause there's a lot of
insecurities that we havebecause it's such a solo thing
to create this image that, Oh,once somebody says a work is

(01:10:49):
garbage.
Are they saying that I'mgarbage?
Or are they saying that the workis garbage and it's hard to
separate that?
So one, did you struggle withthat at all?
And if so, what advice do you

know, I, I didn't because, I mean, if somebody
tells me my work is garbage, I'mprobably not going to listen to
that person.

That might have been a bit harsh, but you
know, like how we internalizethings.

I think people's concern with critique is that
there's this impression thatsomebody's just going to come in
and be mean to you.
I haven't shown this landscapeproject to anybody but, my
closest people, who I trust.
But I don't know if I were goingto show it to, a gallery that
they would go, Oh, this isfantastic.
it's very possible that theywould not be very nice about it.

(01:11:30):
But I have gotten to the pointwhere I understand that if I'm
asking for feedback, I shouldask for, specific things like
here's what I'm trying tounderstand about this, not only
this image, but this body ofwork, can you help me?
understand it, to improve uponit, what can you tell me that
would make it better?
When you go into the critiqueprocess, I don't think that the

(01:11:50):
healthiest thing to do is say,is this good or bad?
Cause that's not going to giveyou any good feedback to take
you to the next step.
So no, I guess, I mean, I know Iwent away from your question,
but I think I never had problemwith, getting feedback because I
thought it was, it's always beenimportant to me to try to
understand what it is that I'mtaking, and what I'm capturing
and how to get better with it.

(01:12:10):
Listen, I know feedback is veryhard for some people.
I know you create these thingsthat are your, they're your
babies and you love them somuch.
But I think, at some point justcame to place where I realized,
that other people have opinionsand those opinions are, just as
valuable for me to hear as myown.
So I needed to hear it.

So, how do we balance the difference between,
cause I can ask my mom what shethinks about my photos and she'd
be like, these are the bestthings I've ever seen in my
life, right?
Every single time.
and that's like a false, senseof, accomplishment.
So what advice do you have onmaybe finding a community or
finding people, who we can startto trust

and that's a really good question because, I
mean, first of all, showing itto your mom and her opinion.
Incredibly valuable, I love itwhen my mom says it's a great
picture, but she didn'tunderstand what I'm trying to
do, but she likes it and itmakes me happy.
So show it to your friendsfinding a group of people who
you trust and feel comfortablewith is admittedly hard, Like I
said, I spent a long time notdoing that and not knowing how

(01:13:08):
to do that but we're in a timeright now in an age when we have
the internet and we haveInstagram, I mean if there are
people that you interact with onthe internet that are people
whose work you like reach outand say, Hey, listen, I'm trying
to learn.
would you like to look at mywork?
I'd love to hear your opinionand do a call like we're doing

(01:13:28):
right now.
there's nothing more valuablethan like sitting across the
table and having prints, so ifyou were not in Indianapolis and
I were not in Boston and wecould sit together and just look
at these things and talk aboutthese things and you can, you
could say, well, I don't likethis one.
This one really works for me.
These are the ones that I reallylike.
But you can do that.
You can do that here, you can doa share screen and I can show
you images and you can show meimages and we can talk about

(01:13:50):
them.
And if you can expand that, soyou have three or four or five
people who can get together oncea month and do the same thing
for a few hours where you show,here's what I've taken this
month and this is what I've beenworking on.
And, Hey, I'm thinking aboutdoing this.
I want to put together a book ora zine.
What do you guys think if I dothis?
Talk to me about the concept anddoes that work for you?
When I talked about,understanding the language of
photography, that's part of whatI mean is, just to be able to

(01:14:12):
have that conversation and tounderstand how to communicate
not only what you're trying todo, but also what you feel about
the other people's work as wellin a way that's healthy and
helpful to them.
Cause there's a big differencebetween criticism.
And And critique, right?
Critique is a healthy,thoughtful process.
Criticism is, I don't know, forme, it just, it sounds mean.

(01:14:34):
It's just, I'm going to becritical.
it sounds negative, but critiqueis something where you, look at
the pros and the cons and thepositives and negatives and the
meaning, and you think about itin a bigger way than just being
mean and saying the negativesabout it.

I love that.
I think that's what we all want.
At our core, everybody justwants to win.
To have some sort of validationto feel seen right?
and being able to create workfrom ourselves and then be able
to share with others.
It's almost our way of, nonverbally speaking to others, how
we view the world.
So, that desire to feel seenthrough that, I think is, real
deep.
Not being very familiar with thewhole process of this, is there

(01:15:08):
a question maybe that I'mmissing or looking over?
Is there anything that I'm not,asking that you think is really
important about the process ofcritique?
or finding people to critique?
Is there anything like that?

don't know if it's a question, but me the most
important thing is try to figureout a community that you feel
comfortable with.
Just a group of people that youlike and respect and admire and
hopefully will do the same toyou so that you can talk about
about your photography and sortof say here's what I want to do

(01:15:40):
and have those conversations andthen to go out and take a walk
Right if the other people of youlike and respect their street
photographers go take a walk Youknow go stroll around and see
how they shoot, see what they doand work next to them.
So you're taking a picture ofwith one person here and another
person there, and all three ofyou are in the same spot, and
you all get different pictures.

(01:16:02):
How did that happen?
And then you think about, oh,that's how that person sees, and
that's how that person sees, andnow you start Talking about that
together and well, I looked atthis and I looked at this and
this is why this is meaningfulto me.
And this is why I saw thiscomposition.
It's just conversation, right?
I mean, and this is exactly whatyou do.
And that's what this is.
This is why what you do is sogreat as part of your podcast

(01:16:23):
here is you are giving people,something to listen to, to
understand it.
And what I'm saying is that,people hopefully we'll go to
that next level, right?
And then to get together amongstthemselves and say, Oh, we've
got, you know, here are fivepeople in Indianapolis.
Let's go take a walk.
And hey, next month, why don'twe get together at Bobby's house

(01:16:45):
and sit down and show someprints, right?
And now you've got a community.
Now you've got people who justwant to talk about photography.
And, sometimes people come andgo because their interest wanes
and they do get, you know,involved in other things.
But, you bring new blood in andhave that energetic group that
all cares about and understandseach other.

Is it possible?
I know that you said, sharingyour screen and stuff.
We can do that online andobviously that's what you do as
well on the crit house when youmeet people on zoom there.
but tell me the differencebetween, doing this virtually
and doing it in

Um, So that's a really good question because,

(01:17:44):
interact with prints on a table.
And moving them around andsaying, Oh, look at how these
work together, right?
Here you've got four images thatall look how these are just
great together.
And they may not be the greatestphotographs individually, but as
a unit, they're fantastic.
And you get somebody else comealong and say, Oh, well look at
these, you kind of put thosetogether and you start to see

(01:18:04):
that process of different peopleinteracting with your
photographs in a way that younever would have.
You never would have done itbefore.
I mean, you might have if youreally care, but now you've got
this other from other people andyou yourself get to do that with
other people as well I meanthere's value to looking at

(01:18:25):
other people's photographs whoare your peers and saying Oh,
this is what works for me andwhat doesn't work for me because
then you Start to understandyourself a little bit more and
what you like and don't like inyour own photography this group
went for four years From thestart of kovat until just last
month when we got together forthe first time together again it
was so nice just to be able todo that same thing again.

(01:18:51):
Now, on the other hand, thedifference is online.
You have the ability to shareimages beforehand and you can
see things and you interact withthem in different ways.
So there is great positivity tobe able to do that in a share
screen as well.
It's just a differentenvironment.
And the other thing is that, onZoom, it's harder to, like, one
person wants to talk andeverybody's interrupting people.

(01:19:11):
And so you can do that in personbecause you can have one
conversation over here andanother conversation over here
between two people.
And, so the in person thing forme, I think is, the best way of
doing it.
But, there's great value todoing it remotely as well.

love that.
Thank you for sharing that.
That sounds like a blast.
That sounds like something funand something that I'm going to
start looking into.
Try to find a group of peoplearound here who might want to
get together every once in awhile and start looking at our
photos.

Sorry to interrupt but one of the things is that
the people in that group that Ihave worked with have grown.
I Mean, they came into it asgood photographers.
We brought them in becauseeverybody was sort of, we liked
the work that everybody broughtto the table, literally, and to
see them over the years growfrom the feedback that we're
giving each other, cause they'llhear something to say, Oh, I

(01:19:59):
should try that.
And then the next month theycome back with what somebody had
said, try that.
And you go, Oh, that'sfantastic.
so the growth that you see frompeople is just, it's beautiful.
it's so nice to have a communitywhere you're seeing people,
become better because of whatyou're doing for each other.

And that's so hard like we miss that so much
online because people come andgo because there's just so many
people online.
People are hiding behind screennames, you don't necessarily
recognize when somebody's notthere, or when somebody new is
there so absolutely get that.
it comes to, giving critiques.
Is it easy to give critiques,accurate feedback on other's

(01:20:36):
work.
If it's a style of photography,that's not of your own.

It's harder because you don't, understand it
as well.
Yeah, so that's, a challenge,but, your thoughts are still
valid.
So I spent 40 years doing streetphotography and, I didn't know
anything about portraitsportraits or landscapes or fine
art photography or, any of that.
But when I see photography inthose genres that I have never

(01:21:04):
done before.
still can have thoughts about itand so trying to sort of put
together what your thoughts areabout something you don't
necessarily fully understandstill has value, right?
Because, if you have a landscapephotographer, right, who is
looking for feedback and you'rea street photography person,

(01:21:27):
That photographer still needs tohave input from people who don't
necessarily fully understandlandscape.
Because if they put it on thewall, or in a book, not
everybody looking at that imageis going to know anything about
landscape photography.
those images need to communicateto people who don't understand

(01:21:47):
it.
And so when you ask before,about Your mother is gonna look
at that picture in a book andshe still needs to be moved by
it and she still needs to Beimpressed by it.
And so if you're only looking toimpress landscape photographers
Then only show it to landscapephotographers.
But if you want Everybody tolike your work and to appreciate

(01:22:08):
it and know what you're doingThen you need to show it to
people who may not necessarilyUnderstand it

Ooh.
N

I feel like I've gone so all philosophical here
and I'm not that smart so

ha ha ha No, I think it just goes back to
Again, it's so hard, I think, asa human to like share something
that so vulnerable, bevulnerable and share photos.
and what I'm trying to do hereis squash almost any objection
that somebody might have aboutjoining a group, right?
Oh, I'm not a landscapephotographer, I shoot street, I
don't belong with these people,the opposite.

(01:22:43):
And you perfectly encapsulated,like, we should be getting
together even if we have adifference in genre of
photography.

I'll go a step further that there is value to
having a critique group Whereit's not even just photographers
you can have bring in a paintersomebody who does, etchings or
drawings and I haven't done thisbefore, so this is all
theoretical, I think, I knowthat there are groups that do
this.
They bring in people who arejust artists, you know,

(01:23:10):
sculptors and from differentareas of art.
And now you're havingdiscussions about, as opposed to
just about photography.
And that becomes a differentconversation as well.
And then I'm not saying that weshould all do that, but that's
the kind of thing thatillustrates what you were asking
about is, the input is a valuefrom all sorts of different

(01:23:32):
viewpoints.
and by the way, think about thatfor yourself, your input is
valuable to them as well.
So it's not only their input toyou Because it's a two way
street when you're in thesegroups.
It's a community, you have arelationship And what you give
to it?
is a big part of the process aswell.
It's not just gimme gimme gimmeYou're there to be able to help

(01:23:53):
other people as well

Well, Jeff, I don't know how to end it any
better than that.
I think that is both inspiring,motivational and obviously, very
informative as well.
So, unfortunately we are at theend of our time.
I know people listening arethinking to themselves, I gotta
learn more about this.
I gotta get involved.
So where can we learn more aboutyou and obviously the Crit House

(01:24:14):
online?

My website is just my name.
It's jefflerrison.
com.
and then the Crit House is onYouTube.
if you just search for the CritHouse, you'll find it.
And we have, over the last, sixmonths or so, we've been doing a
new series that's not critique,that we bring in photographers
to talk about the images that,influence their creative growth.
so we call it my five, and, it'sphotographers that show five

(01:24:38):
images that, when they werestarting out and learning
photography had some meaning tothem.
and we talk about why and, forme, that's been a fascinating
conversation to hear, how peoplesaw photography and grew from it
and the images that had somemeaning to them.
So The Crypt House on YouTubeand my website, Jeff Larrison,
then on Instagram, it's Jeffunderscore Larrison, L A R A s O

(01:25:03):
N.

All right, let's just jump straight on into
my interview with fine artportrait photographer Brooke
Shaden, who today is going toteach you how to start with a
clear vision and work backwardsto make your creative journey
more focused and meaningful.
Here you're going to learn thevalue of proactive
experimentation over strivingfor perfection by moving forward
through action experimentationand continuous learning.

(01:25:26):
Brooke also encourages emotionaldetachment from your created
work.
As you're here, she highlightsthe importance of releasing your
art into the world and then justfocusing on your new creations.
Brooke.
I just want to know, when didyou know that photography was
going to start to play animportant role in your life?

Brooke Shaden (01:25:45):
it was an odd situation because I knew it, not
at all, and then all at once.
Like, it was just like, a switchgot flipped because it was like,
I was a filmmaker in school andgraduated and had, like, no
indication that I wasn't goingto be a filmmaker.
I moved to LA and my whole goalwas like, be a cinematographer,

(01:26:08):
or be a director, or be awriter, or something.
And then in the, one month ofdowntime that I had when I left
college and moved to LosAngeles, I thought, this is the
first time in my now adult lifethat I don't have a thing to do,
or like I didn't have a job, orI didn't have school, and so I

(01:26:29):
picked up a still camerathinking I could just tell the
stories that I want to tell in asingle image in the meantime,
like before I get to my reallife, and then it was like that
day I remember making a picture,I spent all day on it, and all
evening, and like trying tolearn photoshop, and trying to
learn photography all at once,And then that was it and I just

(01:26:50):
like I didn't want to ever doanything else and I haven't
Since then and that was like 15years ago.

So, you and I have a very similar story I too
went to film school forcinematography, but uh Very
quickly realized that it's verymuch a group effort and in that
you lose some of that Creativitythat, uh, that you

exactly why I don't like it anymore.
Perfect.

Okay.
So, then this is very relatable.
So when it came to, photography,visual elements were obviously
very important to you, that'swhy you wanted to get into film.
Were you taking any photos, likegrowing up, was there any
indication before you picked upthat camera to where photography
spoke to you at all?

None.
I mean, I.
I had taken a class in highschool that was a film
photography class.
I only took it because it wassupposed to be easy.
I was not good at school and Ijust wanted an easy grade.
And I got the worst grade in theclass actually.
It was a B because they wouldn'teven give you lower than a B in
that class.

(01:27:48):
And I was just like, I justremember thinking, okay, our
assignment is to go take apicture of a tree in the parking
lot.
And I felt like everybodyunderstood how to do that.
And I just.
didn't get it.
Like I didn't see the vision ofit and I was so confused and I
did not enjoy it at all.
And I remember we did one, sortof like assignment, the whole
class, you weren't allowed totake pictures of people.

(01:28:09):
It was all like inanimateobjects or landscapes.
And so I ended up doing thiswhole photo shoot where I
photographed like people'smuscles and then like people
were digging their fingers intothe people's muscles.
It was really weird.
And then I printed them and thenI photographed the photographs
so that it was like a workaroundso that I, it was still an

(01:28:31):
object that I photographed.
And I just remember my teacherslike me, I'm like, what the
heck?
Like, that's not what we askedyou to do.
And I, but all I wanted was totake pictures of people.
And I felt so discouraged.
Like of what photography wassupposed to be.
And so I just like, that was itfor me.
And I was like, forget that I'mnever doing that again.
But at the same time, I took afilmmaking course in high

(01:28:52):
school.
It was like a digital imaging,like take your little video
camera around type thing.
And in that class, theyessentially said, do whatever
you want.
And so I made this really creepyfilm about my friend who was
like going insane in an insaneasylum.
And she eventually drownsherself in a pool.
And that was like the whole oneminute movie.
And they were like, this isawesome.

(01:29:13):
And then it ended up winningthis local film festival for
like, just for teenagers, youknow, and that was the first
time in my life where I thought.
Oh, I could be good atsomething.
Like truly, maybe this is forme.
So I went to film school andthen it was only at the end of
college where I was like, thisis kind of annoying.
Like I, I liked making filmswhen it was just me and my
friend and that was it, but notwhen it's like, like, 50 people

(01:29:35):
on a set and yeah, so then Iswitched to photography and
realized, oh yeah, that could bewhatever I want it to be too.
Like it doesn't have to be whatI thought.

What do you think that disconnect was?
Because in, in your photographyclass, because today, when you
say that, you know, theassignment was to go photograph
a tree in the parking lot andyou felt like everybody knew how
to accomplish that assignment,except for you.
Why do you think that is?
Like today, if you were asked togo photograph a tree, I'm sure
that you'd be able to do so withease.

(01:30:03):
I still couldn't do it.
You still couldn't

do it?
I'm telling you, I really don'tthink that I could photograph a
tree properly right now.
Like, and that's the thing isthat I don't, this is why I
don't really identify as aphotographer very much because
if you handed me a camera andsaid, We're gonna go on like a,
a photo walk.
down the street or something,and you're just gonna photograph
what you see.
My pictures would be subpar,like, to, to a really extreme

(01:30:29):
degree, I think.
And it's not that I don'tconceptually understand light
and composition and all of that,it's just that I have no
interest in taking pictures.
Like, that is not my goal.
And so when I go out with acamera, it's not like, what do I
see?
It's what's in my mind, and howcan I make that happen in front
of my camera?
So everything is prearranged inmy mind and I know what I want

(01:30:51):
it to look like.
So for me, it's like there isphotography is not, it's a
disconnect for me.
It always has been.

Would you say that photography is simply the
tool that you use to create?

Yes.
And I use many tools.
I mean, it started out as just acamera and it still is.
I mean, I still, largely createwith a camera, but I also sculpt
and I also, incorporate likepainted elements into my work.
And, I'm a writer as well.
you know, like all of thesethings, I feel like they're all
just tools to serve this largerpurpose of these ideas that I've
always wanted to make.

Oh, that's so exciting.
So, when new photographers startlearning how to use their
camera, they think, I'm learningphotography, but as we know,
that's simply learning the tool.
It's not until after you knowhow to use the tool that you can
really start to learnphotography.
So, for you, learning the toolpart of it, what was the hardest
part for you to grasp to be ableto create the images that you

(01:31:46):
wanted to?

That's a great question, and I, this is, this
really goes back to how Ilearned photography, because I
did not, I had training in, in,you know, like, film cameras,
like motion picture film camerasand stuff like that, but not a
still camera and not a digitalcamera per se, and so when I
came into it, I knew the basics,like I understood aperture, you

(01:32:09):
know, like I understood ISO,those things I learned in film
school, but I didn't know.
I didn't understand exactly howto compose for a still
photograph, I didn't understandexactly how to light that, and I
did not know how to work mycamera, so I'll give you a good
example of like this, the firstday that I started photography,
really, was I had this image inmy mind of like, okay, if I

(01:32:31):
could make anything in onepicture, what would it be?
And it was an image where Iwanted to I was going to be a
self portrait where I was in thepicture twice.
And so it was like a cloneimage.
And in the picture I was handinga ball of light to my other
self.
So it was like, I was sort ofAnd the inspiration behind this
was that my grandmother used toalways say this prayer to me

(01:32:53):
growing up.
She would say, if I should diebefore I wake, I pray the Lord
my soul to take.
And I thought, that isterrifying.
Like, what a horrifying visualimage for me as a child.
And so I wanted to turn thatinto, an image.
And so it was me sitting acrossfrom myself, handing this ball
of light that was my soul to myother self.
And so it, when I created thatimage, I remember thinking like,

(01:33:18):
I don't even know how to.
Put this camera on the tripod.
I don't know how to trigger it,how to focus it.
it was all just guesswork, butbecause I had this image in my
mind, I knew exactly what Iwanted it to be.
And so I could work backward anddeconstruct from there.
And I find that that has beenthe single, Greatest thing that

(01:33:39):
I have had to do in my career iswork backward and figure out how
to get to that end goal.
And I think that a lot of peopleapproach photography from the
standpoint of, well, I'm goingto learn this camera.
Then I'm going to learn how totake some pictures that look
decent.
Then I'm going to learn how tomake those pictures better.
And I was working from thestandpoint of, I want it to look
like this, and I need to dothese things in order to get
there, and I didn't know whatthey were, I just had to ask

(01:34:01):
myself, like, okay, I've donethis thing, and I think that's
going to lead to this nextthing, and let's try to learn
that next thing, and it took along time, and, you know, when I
say a long time, it actuallytook almost no time at all, in
all honesty, it took a long timefor me that day.
But, like, I did end up with apicture that day, and I'm proud
of it, and it's like, you know,it's the first picture I ever
posted to my Flickr site, 15years ago, you know, and it's

(01:34:23):
still there, and I love thatpicture, and so I think that,
you know, there's, there aredefinitely two methods of
approaching learningphotography, and I did it the
backwards way, that not, youknow, Very many people do, I
think.

I don't think it's backwards.
I think starting with the end inmind is just not kind of the
concept that most people, gofor, because, it seems like when
you look at step 10, that that'sso far away, that how, like, I
don't even know, I need to takestep 1 before I get to step 2,
and definitely before I get tostep 10.
but I think that your way is,equally valid, if not more so.

(01:34:54):
Than just trying to learnbecause ultimately, here's the
thing that I realized is that,and I realized this when I
became a parent, you're nevertruly ready until you just do
it, right?
Definitely.
And I think that in photographyand in any sort of art form, it
can be very similar.
And I'd love for you to talk tothat as well.
But like, if you have theseambitious goals and you just go
for them and then just figure itout on the way, you're still

(01:35:17):
going to be able to reachsomething better than, well, let
me spend a week, seeing whatdifferent.
shutter speeds do and thentrying to imagine what you can
do with those.
You know what I mean?

Yeah.
I mean, I, like, I do not at allsuffer from analysis paralysis
where some people do where it'slike, I don't overthink things.
I'm very quick to take action toa fault sometimes, but I'm very
quick to just do the thing thatneeds to be done.
And for me, it feels worse to goslowly and try to figure out.

(01:35:49):
Exactly what has to happen thanto just try something and fail
and then try it again.
Like I, I would rather be inmotion than in stillness.
And so, for me, it's just normalto just plow forward and see
what happens.
And I found that through mycareer, whether it's learning
photography or being aphotographer or having a career.
It's just been so much better totake that mindset of done is

(01:36:11):
better than perfect because mostpeople that I meet are so
focused on perfect that nothinggets done and I just can't.
I can't live by that.

Yeah, that's uh, that's me.
So proclaimed right here.
Oh yeah, for sure.
well I think it's one of thosethings and I'd love to hear your
take on this which is that likeum, and I've gotten better at
this obviously over the yearsbut it's like when we create
something we feel like that camefrom us and therefore it's a
part of us.
So when we put it out into theworld people are going to

(01:36:42):
comment on this thing that webelieve is part of us, and it's
hard to separate.
Do you feel that way, or is iteasy for you to be like, No, no,
no, that's just a thing that Imade, that's not me.

Yeah, it's really easy for me to feel that way.
I think that part of it is thatYes, it's a part of me, but it's
one small part, and there willbe so many more parts that I put
out there.
And I think that we, two thingshappen in my brain, which is,
one, I know that I am not asimportant as I think I am.
You know, like, my brain istelling me, you're so important,
everybody's gonna care aboutthis.

(01:37:12):
But, I'm not really thatimportant.
And the second thing is thatpeople have very, you know,
Small memories, like if I do adumb thing, nobody's going to
remember it.
If I do a great thing, probablystill nobody's going to remember
it for that long.
you know, there's, freedom inthe eraser that happens in life
where like people's minds geterased, their memories, their,
you know, what they, theiropinions, all of this can be

(01:37:34):
overwritten.
And so when I release something,yeah, it's a part of me and it
meant a lot to me in thatmoment, but tomorrow I'm going
to get up and I'm going to makesomething else.
And that's going to meansomething to me too.
So I can't dwell on.
Yesterday's thing when there'stomorrow to think about, you
know, like I think that there'sjust so much more Joy and
connection when you just letsomething be and then move on
from it

Do you uh, I mean your following is is quite
large you speak you teach peopleknow who you are as a
photographer people speak aboutyour images How much weight do
you put on anything that issaid?
Do you just try to ignore it alland just Keep creating or do you
take any?
I do

the opposite.
Like I, I try to internalizeeverything, whether it's
negative or positive or neutral.
And I think that that's a littlebit surprising because.
it can be difficult takingnegative comments in and, but I
think that they're all reallyvalid.
my way of approaching art isthat if I have made something
and I have deemed it releasable,like I can put this on the
internet or put it in a gallery,wherever it's going to go, then

(01:38:32):
I need to, Take that wordrelease and really think about
what that means.
Like, am I still holding on tosomething about that image that
I feel I can't let go of?
And if so, then yeah, myfeelings are going to get hurt
when somebody says they don'tlike it.
But if I can make it andrecognize it as this thing that
I have created and I havereleased into the world and I
have truly let it go, then itdoesn't really matter what

(01:38:54):
people think of it.
You know, it's, just this thingthat exists and, it's okay if
they like it or don't like it.
I promise I've had lots of bothhappen to me, you know, where
people are really mad aboutthings I've done and really
excited and, and neutral, youknow, which I think is even
worse.
I would rather somebody be angrythan feel nothing at what I've
done.
And so to me, like, I look backat the images that I think are

(01:39:16):
the most successful and they'reoften the most controversial
images that people have sent medeath threats over that people
have been mad about.
And it's like, yeah, but I madeyou feel something.
And that I think is.
a really incredible thing to doas an artist.

Oh my goodness.
So, um, the ability to tell astory, ability to, communicate a
feeling is obviously veryimportant to you, uh, to get
somebody to feel somethingright.
And in filmmaking, we do thatthrough a story, through a
narrative.
Uh, you said that you dowriting.
That's where you, you know, youdo that through a narrative as
well.
and, Can you talk to me a littlebit about how you approach

(01:39:51):
storytelling in your images,which are still and
traditionally one off.

Yeah.
Storytelling is, there's so manyways to approach it.
And if we had five hours, likewe could still be sitting here
at the end of five hours talkingabout storytelling.
So I'll make this as relatableas I can to photography.
And I think that photography,photography sometimes suffers

(01:40:18):
with storytelling because It's avery personal medium, whereas if
you set out to make a film, forexample, you know that there are
going to be 20 people giving youtheir opinions and they're going
to adjust the story and, youknow, it's going to go through
beta testing and stuff likethat.
With a photograph, you largelyhave the ability to make it by

(01:40:40):
yourself.
Maybe not all the time, butlargely.
And in that process, it becomesextremely personal to you.
You have a story, maybe, youhave something that, that meant
something, even if it was just,I saw a leaf and it reminded me
of somebody, or, you know, like,whatever the story is.
And I think that the best thingthat I've learned to do is to
take this personal story that Ihave, maybe I'm creating from an

(01:41:03):
experience or an emotion thatI've, that I've had, And then to
make that really universal.
So taking the specific and thenwidening it to say, how will
other people be affected bythis?
And this is like the mostcontroversial art, um, opinion,
which is that some people thinkif you make art, it has to be
just for you, you know, like ithas to come from within and all

(01:41:24):
that.
And I think that's great if itdoes.
And mine does, you know, like Ihave these things that I want to
say, and it means something tome, but I'm extremely curious
about the viewer and impactingtheir life.
And When I look back at my life,I don't want to think, I just
made a bunch of stuff for me andthen I died.
Like, I want to think I made abunch of stuff for me and then I
made that stuff relate tosomebody else and it impacted

(01:41:47):
their life positively.
And then I died.
That'll be fine for me.
So, you know, so I'm veryinterested in the viewer and in
their experience of my art andnot just my experience of my
art.

What does that look like?
can you give me an example of atime where you had an idea for
something, but you had to maketweaks?
Thanks.

Yeah, all the, oh, all the time.
something that I learned veryearly on was, I remember I had
this teddy bear that I wanted totake a picture of, like,
representing childhood,whatever, innocence and stuff.
and I did.
And I just remember that, like,to me, there was so much meaning
in this.
Picture where like this, I hadthis teddy bear.
It was really, you know, likefrom my childhood, whatever, all

(01:42:28):
that, and I released it and itwas like this moment of like,
oh, nobody's gonna know or carethat this.
Teddy bear is from my childhood,but a teddy bear represents
childhood.
So it doesn't matter that it wasmine or if I bought it from a
store or whatever.
And I started to realize thatwhenever I felt disconnected
from people's art, it was oftenbecause there were symbols in it

(01:42:49):
or objects or wardrobe orsomething that I couldn't
connect with because thatspecific thing doesn't mean
anything to my life.
So I became very aware of howobjects specifically relate to
other people.
So using objects that areuniversal symbols like a
butterfly, for example, being asymbol for metamorphosis or You

(01:43:10):
know, a snake being a symbol forevil or like things like that,
that a lot of people couldunderstand.
I started to rely on symbolismas a mode of storytelling so
that my work, yes, it meanssomething to me, but then how do
I visually communicate that toan audience in a way that allows
them to understand it too?
And I think that that's how webreak barriers of languages and
countries and things like that.

that is extremely interesting.
And I appreciate you, youbreaking that down a little bit
because, you know, there is alot of.
push to create art that comesfrom you, that is like fully
yourself.
And I don't know if I've, Imean, I know that I've seen like
a snake in person or whatever,but like, I've never really had
encounters with snakes.
And I don't know if I would havethought to myself, when creating

(01:43:54):
an image, oh, if I need a, anelement of evil, let's use a
snake, like let's do things likethat.
But yet when you say it, Itmakes sense.
It makes sense.

Yeah, well, there's you know, there's a
great book that uh, well, thereare many books In fact, there's
one called the dictionary ofsymbols and it's really
fascinating because you can lookat you can look up I mean google
is also fine for this, you know,Like whatever use whatever you
want but I have this book that'sreally great.
It's illustrated and itbasically will say like, okay,
if you want to use this object,here are all the ways that

(01:44:25):
people might interpret thisobject.
And I find that reallyinteresting because you can
start to layer your work indeeper and deeper ways, which is
important for me.
So like, I have these differentlayers where, okay, Instagram,
let's say, and.
People will scroll past it very,very quickly, and something has
to catch their eye, and so,like, on a base level, something
has to connect to them, wherethey can understand the image

(01:44:48):
fast.
But then, that same image mightgo to a gallery, where people
are going to stand there forminutes on end, just staring at
it, thinking about what itmeans.
So there has to be more todiscover than just that one
thing that caught their eye.
And this is where symbolism getsreally fun, and tricky
sometimes, where you don't wantto layer a work with so much
symbolism that People look rightpast it because it's too

(01:45:09):
complicated to take in, but thenyou do want there to be
something else there for them todiscover.
An example of this, I justrecently released an image, of a
woman covered in wax and she'ssort of holding a whole bunch of
pomegranates to, like, hermidsection.
And this was an image where it'sreally simple to look at.
There's like not a lot going on.
There's a woman, there arepomegranates, there's like a

(01:45:31):
kind of a hazy sky in thebackground, not much else.
But then when you really startto look at the details, you
wonder like why is she coveredin wax?
What does that mean?
Why is there fruit?
What does that mean?
Why is she holding it in the waythat she is?
And it all starts to cometogether to create a more
layered story than what youfirst think when you see it.

One of the things that I was going to ask
you today was, I think at firstglance a lot of your images can
have this, element of maybe abit disturbing or unsettling or,
eerie, but the longer that youlook at it, as you were saying
there, it kind of becomes morerelatable.
And I was going to ask you,like, where do you think that
comes from?
Because I've looked at, maybe a,a woman with her, ribcage
replaced with a, with abirdcage, right?

(01:46:09):
Yes.
Her, her torso is a ribcage.
And I, I look at this image andI think to myself, yeah, same,
you know, like I feel that Ifeel the same way.
And I was going to ask you, whydo you think people connect with
those images?
but that's, that's gotta be theanswer, right?
Symbolism.

Yeah, I think it's symbolism and, you know,
it's about understanding that weare not that unique.
Mm hmm.
You know, we, our experiences.
They can be unique, they feelunique, but they're not actually
very unique.
I was thinking about this a lot,a year ago I attended a writer's
conference, and I was in a bigclass of maybe 30 people or so,

(01:46:44):
we were in this like four daymaster class, and Most of the
people in this class werewriting memoirs, and most of the
memoirs were about their healthexperiences, whether it was
cancer or, you know, somethingelse, and I remember the people
teaching the class saying, like,I understand that this was a
monumental experience for you,but Lots of people have had that

(01:47:06):
same experience.
So, what are you trying to sayabout it that's unique that will
teach something to somebodyelse?
And that's how I approach mywork, too, where I think, okay,
I have had experiences that areunique to me, but other people
have felt the same way, even ifthey haven't endured the same
experience.
And you're going to find thatthey're doing the exact same
exact thing.
They know what that feels like.
So for example, I create a lotof work about being a foster

(01:47:28):
parent.
Now, lots and lots of people arefoster parents but not a great
many people.
Okay, like not, certainly notenough.
And so, so knowing that that,experience is a bit unique to
me, I have to think then aboutwhat is the emotion that I've
experienced within that lifeexperience.
And, and that is something thateverybody can relate to.

(01:47:49):
The feeling of having to saygoodbye to somebody that you
love, the fear of not knowingwhat an experience will be like,
the, understanding how to lovewithout attachment, for example,
all of these things.
I can communicate to otherpeople.
And so how I approach thatparticular work that I'm making
is by saying, all right, I'vehad this experience.
Not many people will relate toit, but what's the emotion of

(01:48:11):
it?
And what do I want people tolearn from it?
You know, like I don't want thisto be gratuitous where I'm just
creating work because I thinkit's cool and you'll think it's
cool and you know, like that forme doesn't satisfy the urge of
being an artist.
So to me, it's saying, well,what is the experience?
Okay.
For me, it's foster care.
What is the emotion?
It's learning how to let go.
Now, what do I want to teachpeople?

(01:48:33):
I want to teach people how tolove without ownership.
That's what I want to teachpeople.
And so how do you do that then?
And I do that through symbolismand I do that through this
visual language that I'velearned that maybe you'll
understand if you look at whatI'm making.

Okay, so then people are listening right now
and they're like, okay, great.
I get how you get to that point,right?
How do you love withoutownership, right?
What is that?
How does that translate into animage?
What is it that you're puttingin the image that makes people
feel that way?

Yeah, and this is a question that I am trying to
answer right now, you know?
Like and I think that that's thework of an artist is to say How?
How many times do I have to failbefore you understand what I'm
trying to say?
So, I'll give you two examplesbecause I've, this is a series
that I've, I've been working onfor two years.
I've started it like four times.

(01:49:21):
I keep throwing all the imagesaway and I, I think I finally
got it this year.
So, um, so one of the imagesthat I made, I haven't released
this yet, but it's a, it's animage where I took every stuffed
animal from our kid's room,because we've officially stopped
fostering.
Just recently and so I took allthe stuffed animals of which
there were a ton and I basicallybuilt like a big pile of them in

(01:49:44):
the middle of my forest outsideand I waited until dusk and I
lit the pile from above so it'slike the spotlight on these
stuffed animals and then in theimage is me walking forward
holding a torch and the ideahere is You'll probably think
I'm going to torch these stuffedanimals, you know, and, and sort
of, you know, it's a bit, it's abit of a dark image, although

(01:50:05):
there's Kermit the frog in therelooking really adorable,
actually.
Yeah.
but you know, the image for meis about questioning, um, how we
all think that when you have abiological child or you adopt a
child, like they're yoursforever, like they belong to you

(01:50:26):
for lack of a better word.
And yet that's not a guarantee.
You know, like things happen,people die, people go away,
people end their relationshipsfor a multitude of reasons.
And I think that there's a falsesecurity in the innocence of
childhood.
Like this person is, mine andfor me.
And I don't think that's true.
And I think that our love growswhen we realize that there will

(01:50:49):
come a time when thatrelationship will end, whether
it's my death, your death, theirdeath, whatever.
or something else.
And so this image to merepresents sort of, like putting
our childhood up in flames andrecognizing that it's not
permanent.
And then after that I did animage where I went out to a
frozen lake and I got all these,this is, I love this picture, I

(01:51:10):
got all these pool floaty toys,like inner tubes and inflatable
swans and stuff, and I spraypainted them all white.
And, I got in a bathing suitwith a, with a swimming cap on
and floaties on my arms and I,and I'm just sitting on the ice
with all of these sort of likefrozen pool toys.
And to me, it's sort of the, thefreezing of innocence of

(01:51:31):
childhood, like trying to keepthat feeling that we know isn't
going to last forever.
So those are some sort of,sorry, lengthy examples of, how
I've been doing this recently,but I think that there is a real
challenge to creating an imagethat speaks to us.
to a very difficult topic, youknow, and I think that it takes
a lot of tweaking and figuringit out and testing with

(01:51:53):
audiences and seeing what works.
But at the end of the day, Ithink, you know, when it works,
you know, like I did the seriesfour times and it finally, like,
I just, I've been staring atthese images for a month now.
And I, and I, I love it.
Like, I feel like it's going toresonate.

Now that you've gotten to a point to
where you do like the images,looking back at that first
series of images that youcreated the first time, what was
it about those that maybedidn't?
Hit the mark.

I'll tell you exactly what it was because I've
been, this has been a big topicfor me lately.
I, I created those images.
with this intent in mind that Ihad to make it very serious.
And I think that it's tough whenyou, when your creativity is
your career, because you try tobalance how am I going to be

(01:52:38):
perceived?
How am I going to advance mycareer while making the art that
I want to make?
And there's this tendency.
So I'm a conceptual sort ofsurreal artist, and There is not
a lot of room in the serious artworld for that type of work.
it's a very challenging niche.
And the type of work that yousee winning lots and lots of

(01:53:00):
awards tends to be, even if it'sconceptual, tends to be very
photographic in nature.
Whereas my work is very surrealand illustrative in nature.
And I wanted to create work thatwould win awards.
So my goal was like, take thisidea that I really want to
create, but then also Try to doit in a way that like those

(01:53:20):
curators that I really wanttheir attention that they'll
look at it and be like, Oh,that's a serious artwork.
And so I created this work andit was, going to be called
broken threads.
And what I thought was, Ithought I'll do it mixed media.
I'm going to create these imagesthat look super photographic,
like totally realistic images.
And then I'll take the paperthat they're printed on and rip

(01:53:40):
them and sew through them.
And I was going to do all thisstuff.
And it just fell flat.
I mean, and it might not have.
That's the thing, like, if I hadmoved forward, maybe it would
have been great and thosecurators would have loved it.
I have no idea, but I hated it.
I looked at it and I was like,this isn't how I enjoy creating.
Like, I don't like looking atimages like this, so why am I
going to make images like this?
And so it took a lot of, andthis happens with every body of

(01:54:02):
work I've ever created.
I think, oh, it has to be thisbecause then people will think
it's more important.
And then it, and it never worksout.

So just so that I'm perfectly clear here,
uh, and again, thank you forsharing that example, because
that is, uh, what I thought wasso interesting there was that,
you talked earlier about, like,I do care about what people
think, but at the same time,like, I want to create it from
within me and here you arecreating.
A series that in, like you wantit to win awards, like you want
there to be recognition therefor these images and, but at the

(01:54:32):
same time, they weren't goodenough for you to put out.
So there's this really weirdbalance.
It seems like, or maybe, maybeit's tug of war.
Like, tell me how you see thisin your head about the, creating
work for yourself and creatingwork for your audience, because
those images that you created.
You weren't happy with for theintended purpose, but were you

(01:54:54):
just not happy with thoseimages?
At all?
Is that why you didn't dedicatemore time to them?
That was a huge question.
I apologize.

Yeah, no, I think that there is, there was a sense
that it was wrong for me.
And this is a really challengingthing because part of why I
create in new ways sometimes is,I'll take you back to an
example.
So 12 years ago, I was at aconference and they had all of

(01:55:22):
these, like shooting bays set upwhere there were like lights and
backdrops and models and youcould just go and like shoot
these different people.
And I was so put off by this.
I was like, why would anybodywant to do that?
And no offense to people whowant to do that.
It's just literally a differenttype of creating that I am not,
that I don't do.
And I was so confused.
And so I went to this conferenceevery year and every year I was

(01:55:44):
like, I still don't get it.
I still don't know what we'redoing here.
And so a friend was like, well,but like, you haven't even tried
you're just standing here beinglike, that sucks.
And you don't even know becauseyou've literally never attempted
it before.
And so I was like, Well, darn,that was a really good point,
and so I picked up my camera andI learned how to use a light,

(01:56:05):
which I was very intimidated by,and that was definitely part of
my judgment toward the processof like, I don't want to learn
that, I'm not interested inthat, but really, I'm just
scared of learning new things,so I learned it.
I didn't like it in the end, butthere was something to be gained
from it.
And so I never want to get stuckin that mindset where I think I
know more than somebody else, orI don't think that there's a

(01:56:27):
technique that can help me.
And so part of creating thatseries that didn't work out was,
well, what if I've just nevergiven this a chance?
Like, what if I make this and Ilove it?
What if I make this and it'slike my new thing that I just
never would have thought wouldbe my thing.
and that's almost never happenedbefore in that way, but I always
gain something from it, and Ithink that what I gained from

(01:56:50):
that, creating that body ofwork, I made seven images that I
ended up sort of tossing out thewindow, but what I gained from
that was an understanding ofwhat I don't want, which I think
is just as important as knowingwhat you do want, like knowing
I've done that, I had that idea,I tried it, it wasn't for me,
and then being able to stepforward and say, but what could
I take from that?
From that process that was goodand then applying it to what I

(01:57:12):
started doing.
And for me, actually going backto the example from 10 years ago
is lighting.
I ended up just in the last yearand a half, maybe working with
lights.
And that was something I neverthought that I would do.
And I hated it.
And I just was like, so againstit.
And in that series, I startedto, I was using lights and it
was the first time that I reallygot it.

(01:57:33):
And so I took that and I, nowI'm using it and now I'm, now
it's in my new series.

Is that one of those things where.
You realized that there was anelement missing from your
photos, or why did you get in,why did you decide that now was
the time to learn light afterall those years of

being a dancer?
Yeah, I did.
I felt like something wasmissing, and, and I never
thought that I would say that.
And I still use lights maybe 20percent of the time, you know,
and not a ton.
But I started to realize that,There was a certain look that I
wanted to achieve and that Icould not achieve with natural
light, or at least not without alot of Photoshop that I just

(01:58:09):
wasn't invested in doing.
And it's the same way that Ilearned photography.
I had an idea and then I workedbackward and Did the thing to
make the idea happen and it wasthe same way where I had this
image in my mind and I was likeDang it.
I've got to use a light like ifI want to do that thing That's
how it's got to go.
And so I did and I learned andit's been fun

And now would you say that like you love light
like is now light is anessential tool for your
photography Even though it's notall the time.

It's a love hate relationship I mean, I still
like I still turn this thislight on, and I don't understand
what's happening.
I'm like, I've set the thing,and then I click, and then it
doesn't work, or I click, andthen suddenly the power's
changed.
Like, I don't know what'shappening, and it drives me
crazy.
And this is why, like, I willnever be a technical artist, you
know?
Like, I don't know most of thetime what's happening in my

(01:58:59):
camera.
I don't know what's happeningwith that light.
I just hope it works, you know?
And, uh, And that's not a greatway of creating, but when you're
a self portrait artist, like,who cares?
Nobody's waiting on you, so itcan go wrong and you can figure
it out.
But, um, and there are, youknow, there are definitely, I
want to learn more.
I want it to be easier for me.

(01:59:19):
but it just never is.
so light is like a love hatething.
I really enjoy how it's makingmy images look, but we're
struggling together.

The

light and I.

I can, uh, I, I feel the same way sometimes,
and it's just because, like, nowthere's just extra gear that,
like, you have to move aroundand bring with you, and it's
like, I'm, I try to be very, youknow, one camera, one lens, very
minimal when I go out and shoot,but it's like, not only that I
bring a flash, I also gottabring a trigger, and a stand,
and some sort of modifier, andthen I gotta place it, and it
just brings so true.
I

mean, I was out the other day in the snow, um, a
couple weeks ago, shooting and Ihad my light and I had like a
ladder and like all this stuffand I was carrying it back to my
house and I live on this likemassive hill it was really
slippery and I slipped and fellon the road and like the light
was fine the light didn't fallon me but the ladder did but I
was still so mad about the lightI was like if only I didn't have

(02:00:08):
that light I bet I wouldn't havefallen on the road and I'm like
this is an unhealthyrelationship with my light like
I'm blaming it for slipping inthe road even though the ladder
is the thing that fell on top ofme so ridiculous

But, you know, sometimes the most toxic of
relationships create the most,uh, beautiful of art.
So That can

be true.
So, yeah.

Do what you want with that, I suppose.
But, uh, we touched a little bitthere upon Photoshop.
You had mentioned it.
And for you, I know that editingis a large part of your creative
process.
And I've heard you say inanother interview that for you,
the editing process is the mostfun.
Mhm.
For new photographers.
I know that they struggle a lotwith editing because in, you

(02:00:51):
know, when you take a photo,once you know, you release your,
your finger, the photo'stechnically done.
Right.
But with editing, there's no popup that says like, great, like
you did it.
Congratulations.
Your edit is done.
There's lots of second guessing.
Did you struggle with that aswell in the beginning?

Not too much, actually.
And I think that part of that isbecause I knew what I wanted it
to look like already, so it wasalmost like everything I did in
Photoshop was just trying to getit closer to what my imagination
told me it should be.
And that's really helpful.
if you go in and you think aboutit ahead of time, and you're
like, okay, I know I want a warmimage, or I know I want to
replace the background, or, youknow, like, you have these goals

(02:01:28):
in mind, then you can achievethem.
and.
If I go into an edit, if I take,this is my worst nightmare.
If I take a good picture, Idon't know what to do.
Like I get it in Photoshop andI'm like, Oh shoot, this kind of
looks okay.
Like, what am I supposed to donow?
I have no idea.
So I, you know, for me, it'slike.
The rougher it is, the morepaths forward I see to this end

(02:01:50):
goal, and so, yeah, but I thinkthat it's really helpful to have
that in mind.
Like, I know where this issupposed to be in the end.
And I know that some peoplewon't agree with that, and
that's fine.
Like, sometimes it's just aprocess of exploration, just
like how people don't enjoyconceptualizing their images
before they take them, becausethey're exploring with their
camera.
So it's a different method, butit does really help to learn

(02:02:12):
Photoshop, first of all, becauseyou've got this end goal, so you
can now deconstruct what toolsdo I need to achieve that, like,
what can I, what do I need toresearch to figure out how to
achieve that.
but then it also gives you agreater sense of maybe autonomy
in the edit where you're, youknow, Thinking, okay, I know
what I want, and I can achievethat.

Of course.
So then, let me ask you, whenyou look at your photos from,
you know, say 15 years ago, whenyou look at some of those first
photos, visually, you knewexactly what you wanted the
photo to look like.
Today, visually, you know whatyou want the photo to look like.
What's the biggest change?
What has evolved the most?
Between those two photographers,the photographer who you are

(02:02:52):
today, and the photographer backthen, is there a wince?
Or is there a, ah, that's whereI was back then, I know so much
more now?

Yeah, I actually don't feel like I know so much
more now.
To be quite honest, and I don't,I love those, I love all of my
images.
I mean, even the ones that are,I have a few images that are so
cringey that it's, like, Bye.
I still love them, even thoughmy face turns beet red when
somebody sees one of them, like,um.
Wait, wait, wait,

no, we gotta explore that now.
We have to explore that now.
Oh, yeah.

Okay.

Cringy because it didn't match your vision, or
cringy because of the subjectmatter?
Tell me more.

No, it totally matched my vision, but yeah,
it's just, you know.
Like, okay, so there's onepicture that, I lovingly call
head on stick.
It's literally just like abranch where I photoshopped my
head onto the end of the branch.
Oh, wow.
I don't, it's not a goodpicture.
Okay.
At the time I was like, I'mdoing it.
And then I did.
and so it exists for thatreason.
Cause I thought it was good atthat time.

(02:03:50):
And so that's why I think thatlike, for the second part of
your question, specificallyrelating to Photoshop, I've
definitely learned certainthings that have.
made the process slightlyeasier.
But I would argue that I coulddo almost 95 percent of my
process, even today with likethree tools in Photoshop.

(02:04:10):
And I've been doing it that waysince I started.
So even though certain thingsaren't as polished as I would
like back then, like, forexample, I use layer masks now
where before I use the erasertool.

Yeah.

And I see errors in my previous.
It's photos where like I waserasing something and there's no
undoing the eraser tool, likeyou've done it, it's, it's done,
and where now I could tweak thatand it would be better because
of it, but would it be largelydifferent?
No, it wouldn't be.
I have the same sensibilitiesthat I had then and I feel
really lucky, actually, that I,I, Part of it is, like, maybe I

(02:04:47):
should be embarrassed because Ihaven't evolved as much as maybe
I should in Photoshop, but partof me is proud that when I began
photography, I had a vision, andI was able to get the images to
that point enough that itmatched my vision.
And so I can say that then andnow my images match my vision,
you know, which is a good thing.

Yeah, it's good to have that feeling of
consistency, for sure.
But then, this will be my lastquestion for you.
This one's gonna stretch you,hopefully.
How do you see your photographyevolving then over the next two
to three years?

I love that question because I think that
what I see is, and it's not evenjust photography, it's,
Everything that I do, I feellike an artist's job is to just
harness more courage in theirlife in every capacity.
And what I want is Almost to goback to how I created at the

(02:05:42):
beginning of my career, whichwas that I had nobody to please
or nobody looking at it, youknow, it was just like the
weirdest darkest stuff that Iwas doing and It just so
happened that people did takenotice of that and that some
people were really positiveabout it and some were not And I
want that feeling back of likeI'm going to make something that

(02:06:05):
is going to rock your world.
Like, it's gonna be so weird andso out of the box and make you
feel so many things.
And so I don't have, like, aspecific style that I want to
embody or a specific concept,necessarily.
I just want to make somethingthat surprises me and that might
surprise somebody else.

that was beautiful.
I think, uh, we all search forthat, but, as you said, kind of,
it's the artist's mission to, dothat in whatever way we see,
best.
to do so, I suppose.
I don't know if that came outright.
Brooke, thank you so much forcoming on today, answering all
these questions, being as openas you have been.
I wish that we had more time totalk about all things story.

(02:06:46):
you know, all things light, um,and all these things.
Uh, but unfortunately today wedon't.
So, before I let you leave, canyou let listeners know where
they can find out more about youand see some of your images
online?

Yeah, my website is brooke shaden.com.
Instagram is at Brooke Shaden.
I'm just all over the place,just out there talking to
everybody every day.

Now, next up, we have the one and only Taylor
Jackson, a name who you will befamiliar with if you have ever
been on YouTube looking forphotography help here, Taylor
teaches you how to buildconfidence through experience
and overcome those initialinsecurities as a wedding
photographer.
I get it.
I've been there.
You're going to learn thesignificance of trust and
maintaining a strong onlinepresence through a well

(02:07:31):
maintained website, engagingsocial media, and creating
helpful videos for your idealclient.
Taylor's also going to walk youthrough the value of embracing
unique opportunities andcontinuously improving your
skills by stepping out of yourcomfort zone and taking on
various roles and projects topush yourself forward.
Taylor.
I want to read something fromyour website.

(02:07:53):
Is that alright?
Can I do that?
Okay, so, on your website, itsays, there's like a timeline of
your journey throughphotography.
And it says, March 2006, afriend asked if I would shoot
their wedding on two weeksnotice.
It sounded fun.
I charged them my standard rateof 200.
200.
200.
2007, I ramped up all mymarketing to find and attract my

(02:08:14):
ideal clients.
That year, I booked over 30weddings, totaling over 60, 000,
which was enough to quit my jobat the Outback Steakhouse.
So,

Taylor Jackson (02:08:23):
Yeah.

The question is, like, you left a lot out
there, right?
there's a big gap between Marchof 2006 Can you give me, like, a
30, 000 foot overview of, whatchanged for you?
was it, like, an educationthing, or was it, like, a
mindset thing?

Taylor Jackson (2) (02:08:36):
I was always doing photography.
I was doing concerts and, bandpromos.
so that's why I had a camera andI had the technical abilities.
fortunately a lot of the concertphotography things and learning
to use off camera flash and likecrappy basement venues, really
does make the wedding transitiona lot easier.
You've solved all the technicalproblems and everything is just
easier.
So.

(02:08:56):
I had no real technical worriesabout it.
I knew that I could probably dothe wedding.
I hadn't been to a wedding,which was maybe the scariest
part because I think I was aring bearer when I was like six
and then the next wedding I wentto, I was hired.
So I didn't know the flow of theday, which was a little bit
scary.
so that kind of solved that forme.
I realized that this wasdefinitely a possibility for a

(02:09:17):
career.
The issue with concerts and bandphotography was that while I
love it and I had so much fundoing it.
The paycheck wasn't reallythere, at least in kind of my
small town here in Canada,whereas there did seem to be a
wedding market.
so I figured if I wanted to makemoney on my camera, that.
I pretty much had to go intoweddings.
I think I was, Also at the timein 2006, the magazine industry

(02:09:40):
was still kind of alive, but notreally.
And there was like NationalGeographic wasn't calling anyone
up, maybe at that time, but nota few years after to like send
them on cool trips and todocument.
And I kind of saw that weddingswere hopefully an evergreen
solution to me making money andrunning my own business.
I think one of the keys for mewas that I wanted to.

(02:10:03):
Basically be my own boss.
it was I did a 9 to 5 job for coop.
I went to school for computerprogramming of all things and I
did a co op job and I went and Isat at a desk from 9 a.
m.
Until 5 p.
m.
Every single day and I did notenjoy that.
It was not a thing for me.
And I was fortunate to learnthat in college.

(02:10:23):
and by that point I hadn'tracked up a lot of expenses.
I, my car payment was prettymuch like zero cause I was
driving like a 95 Ford Taurus.
My rent was like 400 a month orsomething ridiculous because we
were in a shared accommodationand I was able to basically put
all my effort into marketingthis.
And as long as I was going to bemaking like maybe 3, 000 a month

(02:10:45):
on it, I could support my life,which seems crazy now.
But.
That was kind of that, thatcollege time I spent, I would
say.
Probably the entire year, on mywebsite.
And the problem when you makeyour own website is that you
keep remaking it over and overagain.
And you have no idea if it'sworking or not.
you keep revisiting yourpricing.
It's like, is my pricing wrong?
Is that why people aren'tinquiring?

(02:11:05):
it turned out basically that Ijust didn't have the portfolio,
required to at least get in thedoor with most couples.
So I went out and I just startedcreating my own portfolio.
over that year, I, I, Wouldpretty much trade my, if my
friend's band wanted promophotos, rather than charging
them for it, I would ask themembers of the band, if we could
do a shoot with their partner.
so outside the next day or aweek after whatever, we would go

(02:11:27):
out and we would do a coupleshoot.
So my portfolio was just all,couples that I had met through
the music industry.
And that was enough to at leastkind of give me some cool
factor.
I think also when you'restarting, you kind of get the,
that it's your.
You're brand new and people feellike they've discovered this
uncovered gem or something likethat.
which a lot of my couples feltthat they're like, why are you

(02:11:48):
so much less than all of theseother people?
That's like, well, I've done onewedding and, um, yeah, so it, it
worked out really well.
I was also fortunately kind ofat that age where all of my
friends were about to getmarried and it was very easy for
referrals when you're like,dating someone 18, 19, 21, 22.
There's kind of that space from,I would say maybe 23 to like 30

(02:12:12):
where, at least thinking back afew years, that a lot of couples
would get engaged and getmarried.
So it was a somewhat easiertime.
I think, if I was trying tostart right now, I wouldn't have
the benefit of those few years.
so if you are listening to this,you're watching this and you're
a younger photographer andyou're like, ah, I'm 16.
Like don't know if like a coupleis going to hire me.
the truth is it's going to beweird because there's this

(02:12:32):
reverse age gap and your couplesare going to be 24, 25, 26 and
you're going to be 16, 17.
And it's going to be a bit weirdcommunication wise.
but if you do great work,they'll be happy with you.
And, it was, I think one of thefortunate things was that I
started so young and I was readyfor that time period where
weddings just started kind ofgoing absolutely crazy.

Of course, of course.
So, when you talked about likeyou went out, you realized that
your portfolio was lacking,right?
Uh, I guess one, like, how didyou know that?
Because it's like, when you getinto photography, you think that
all your photos are great, allyour friends think that your
photos are great.
How did you know, like, oh, myportfolio isn't there, and then
how did you, I don't know,systematically decide what it is

(02:13:12):
that you needed to capture tobuild that portfolio?

Yeah, I think I was definitely fell into
the trap of trying to puteverything that I did on my
website and every educationalthing that I read was like, you
have to niche down and you haveto pick something very specific
and be that thing.
And while I don't believe that'sexactly 100 percent true, um, I
think that you can obviously bea wedding photographer and do
family photography and do travelphotography and have a

(02:13:35):
commercial side of yourbusiness.
Maybe that lives on a differentwebsite, but It was, I guess I
realized that at least I had tohave a dominant part of my
website be dedicated to weddingsand to be dedicated to couples.
so that was kind of the, the keyfor me that it was very hard to
sell wedding photographypackages with a bunch of concert
images.
It worked sometimes weirdly, butit was, um, I would say kind of

(02:13:57):
the biggest, the thing that Isaw as a gap.
I also am very introverted and.
Quite not that great withcommunication.
So talking with couples andactually posing them and being
confident with that was also achallenge.
So I wanted experience doingthat as well.
that it was, I was kind of fineif it was my friends, we would
go out, we'd do a shoot, we'dhave some fun.

(02:14:18):
But then as soon as it was acouple that I hadn't met yet,
that communication Barrier wasvery, very challenging for me.
And I think it came down to justlack of confidence in knowing
what I wanted to ask of them.
And once I started doing moreshoots, I feel like my
confidence came up and I becamea significantly better
photographer, especially onwedding days.
yeah.

(02:14:39):
Yeah.

as you said, kind of like you, you just get
better at it with moreexperience.
But there also is like a bit ofan eye as far as like how people
look.
Right.
did you go through any sort ofeducation or were you just like
looking at other people'sphotos?
How did you know how to postpeople?

at the time there was no YouTube.
So now YouTube has made, Thestartup process a lot better.
at the time it was like JerryKionis was doing some video
content and Chase Jarvis.
And that was like it, there waslike two people making videos.
And I think that they weregetting some, I think Chase
Jarvis has talked about that.
He got actual death threats forrevealing the secrets of the
commercial photography industry.

(02:15:17):
so those were my only two videoreferences really.
And neither of them really didthis that, um, that I, that I
saw myself doing.
So.
A lot of it was just kind ofself discovery and looking at
other work and looking atmagazines and like skate
magazines and other concertphotographers and seeing how
bands were posed.
And I took a lot of that into myearly work and I basically just

(02:15:38):
took my couples.
On their wedding day and posethem as though they were kind of
a two person band.
that was kind of the beginningI've changed and evolved a
little bit since that, but thatwas the starting and it was
pretty much, I would say it allcame down to kind of that.
And then also playing around alittle bit with lighting and
getting creative.
I weirdly come from more of agear background than an art
background, but I got really biginto off camera flash for a long

(02:16:01):
time and.
Overused it, I would say,looking back now, but it was,
something that kind of inspiredme to go out and create
something a little bit differentand it definitely made my work
stand out and, or at least bedifferent than what everyone
else in town was doing.

How many couples do you think you've
created, the perfect album photofor?

Oh, and that day it was pretty much every
couple we would find, like thegrungiest locations, outside.
There's a few kind of likepretty sketchy.
Take out restaurants our, ourcore here.
Yeah.
So we would shoot out backthose.
So we knew like most of the,staff there, it'd be like, Oh,
hello back again.
Huh?
Okay.
It's weird.
Stop coming here, please.

(02:16:42):
And yeah, so I'm going to say Iprobably have like 20 or 30,
like pretty good band photos.
Um, Yeah, and then I got moreinto, so I live like an hour out
of Toronto, and then once I gotinto Toronto, the markets are
weirdly kind of separated, andonce I got into Toronto and
started shooting there, I was,had access to way more grungy
backgrounds, and I was addinglike textures to my photos and

(02:17:03):
stuff.
it was a time.

It was a time for sure.
For sure.
let's kind of switch gears alittle bit here.
when I think you asked theaverage person, like, tell me a
little bit about Taylor Jackson,like they're going to list.
Obviously you shoot weddings,your travel photographer, you
have a very popular YouTubechannel.
and you're also like an educatorand you, you go to like every,
conference.
Right.
And I think most photographerslistening would think to

(02:17:25):
themselves, you know, I wouldlove just one of those, right?
And you do all of those thingsand from the outside, you make
it look easy.
So my question for you is, iteasy?

I'll kind of partition it out as best I can.
So for weddings, um, I thinkit's a very much full time thing
that if you're thinking aboutthat all the time, you will be
more successful significantlyfaster, but at some point it
doesn't necessarily become anautopilot.
but.
Most of the, at least the way Ifelt it, my, creativity just
kind of wasn't there.

(02:18:02):
So I was always looking fordifferent things that I could
do, that would inspire me topick up my camera.
And one of the things I starteddoing was I started doing videos
as well.
So I would do the regularwedding photography coverage and
then, in kind of like the early,maybe 20, 10, I started trying
to also do some video coverage.
So I would do like a one minutekind of mini highlight for my
couples while also doingphotography and surprise them

(02:18:23):
with it.
And then by like 2012, 2013, Ifeel like it started to become a
staple and I was doing kind of athree minute highlight.
And at that point, my bookingskind of, I would say
skyrocketed, but within thebounds of the, I had everything
outsourced already.
So, I wasn't editing my ownphotos.
I wasn't editing my own videos.
It was just that I would go tothe wedding day.

(02:18:44):
I would 50 percent of the timedo an engagement shoot and have
a few emails back and forth withthe couple.
But for the most part, I waskind of working like that one
day a week.
And I know that sounds like aridiculous dream.
but it kind of did come down tothat.
I think it's also the couplesthat I attracted as well.
I always came into photographyand the industry as a business,
from the sense that I, I want tounlock as much time freedom as I

(02:19:08):
can.
So maybe there was some kind ofpre planning and that, that
built itself into, into mybusiness, but yeah, I was
working pretty much like theSaturday or maybe a Friday,
Saturday, Sunday, if it was Juneor September and the rest of the
week I really did kind of haveoff.
I was uploading galleries andjust kind of finalizing images,
but my Finalizing of images ispretty much just look through

(02:19:28):
everything and make sure it'sall good.
And that kind of became I guessthe main income of my life.
And then I started adding onother things that I wanted to
eventually get paid for.
So one of those was YouTube anddoing travel content.
We started doing a travel show.
I think we actually did apodcast about this

We did.

way long time.
ago.
yeah.
so yeah, we started doing atravel show, which was kind of a
personal project that I wantedto do, but I eventually wanted
to hopefully turn a profit onit.
And Nikon saw some of theepisodes and we talked and we
did, two seasons of a Nikontravel show.
so yeah, kind of, full circleand kind of what we weirdly

(02:20:06):
planned.
I know you can't plan somethinglike that, but, when you started
talking to a brand and you'relike, well, we want to do this,
but we'd love to do this withyour cameras.
And we've already done proof ofconcept of it and it would be
the same team running it.
And they were very quick to saylike, that sounds great.
and then, um, When it comes tothe education side, it's just,
it's kind of all built inbecause I'm usually showing my

(02:20:27):
real life weddings.
So it's kind of, I record thewedding and then maybe I do a
behind the scenes on the day.
Sometimes I just run GoPro andtalk about it later.
If we're doing, if I'm doingphotography and also highlight
video and also doing behind thescenes and also trying to talk
to the camera, it's too many

So many things,

I feel like it, Yeah, and it takes, it
actually takes away from the jobthat I've been hired there to
do.
so a lot of time I'll just runGoPro on it and then I'll do
voiceover or, something in thestudio after to kind of talk a
little bit more.
and then, yeah, there's someother secret jobs I have too,
but, um, those are kind of the,the main ones I would say.
And yeah, it kind of goes inseasons where summer, I would
say, where I'm in Canada,Northern hemisphere.

(02:21:03):
So like, I would say may untilmaybe October, I'm pretty much
full time wedding photography uphere.
And then usually November 1st, Istopped taking weddings.
so this took so long for me tobe able to actually do, because
when people are like, we'd liketo pay you money to do our
wedding and you actually say noto it, it's pretty crazy.

(02:21:23):
And I take off from November,usually until May 1st.
unless something veryinteresting comes along.
I'm open to unique andinteresting opportunities, but
my regular wedding days that Ido here, I just don't book them
in the winter.
And then we go and we travel andwe do YouTube content, and
that's also when all theconferences kinda happen in that
time period as well, so that'swhy I'm able to go to those and

(02:21:46):
I'm speaking at a lot of themthis year and next year.
which is kind of fun and alsoterrifying simultaneously.
But, yeah, that's the, the weirdbusiness that I've made, I
guess.

What's terrifying about, going to these
conferences?

Oh, just if you have to speak in front of
like 300 or a thousand people.
Um,

contact with them?

yeah.
Like for video, I have finaledit over everything.
Go out.
I shoot something.
I also never, I could never belike a person that vlogs in
public.
I'm never talking to a camera,like walking around the streets.
my brain just can't handle that.
so I'm recording things.
I know I have final edits.
So if I screw things up orwhatever it is, I can fix it.
and then I have final edit onthat video to put up.

(02:22:26):
Online and I get to doeverything kind of myself,
whereas when it's a publicspace, I have less of that and I
wouldn't consider myself a greatpublic speaker.
I'm getting better, but it'staken a lot of time.
I think I did my first, maybelike 2011, I think I did a WPPI,
like a little five minute ignitething where your slides
automatically advance and it wasnot great.

(02:22:48):
And I think there was like 5,000 people in that room was
really big.
And it was not good.
And looking back at that, I'mlike, okay, it's cool that I've
gotten a lot better.
I think I also know the topic alittle bit more in 2011.
I knew what I was doing, butmaybe I didn't know why I was
doing it when it comes to,photography and the decisions I
was making now watching back thetape of every single wedding

(02:23:08):
I've done for the past 10 years,and making a video about it, I
get to.
Learn a lot as well and see thethings I missed and hopefully
like give myself more time tounderstand why I did things
because on the wedding day, it'sjust it's fast paced and it's
efficiency.
And, yeah, so it's nice to beable to kind of sit back and
watch that, I guess.

Yeah, of course.
It's funny because it's like,hearing, at least talking with a
lot of the speakers, that, uh,just imaging this year, that was
a common thing.
You know, everybody's like,it's, weird to get up in front
of that many people and they'reall watching you.
Even like, uh, Seth Miranda,he's like, you know, I do this
all the time.
Like I do this day in and dayout and do this stuff with
lights, but doing it in front ofall these people, It's funny
because it's like, it's wild.
So, I understand.

(02:23:45):
I understand.
I think that it'd be weird tolike do a podcast in front of
people, you know?
even though it's essentially theexact same thing, it's just like
you and I having a conversationhere.
Just to know that there's likeall those eyes, it does change
the concept.
Not to freak you out oranything.
Sorry, didn't mean to, to dothat to

podcast next imaging USA.

go.
Let's go.
we get back to the, talkingabout weddings, talking about
efficiency.
as you and I know, weddingsstart much before the actual
wedding day, right?
Because you gotta initially getthose clients.
what are you doing?
Let's talk about the leadprocess first.
How are you trying to, buildefficiencies, into, gathering
leads and getting your name outthere?

so there's certain times of the year that
leads tend to come in a lotstronger than others.
And I feel like I used to say itwas, I used to say it was
January and then it becameFebruary.
And then this year it's Likemaybe the first week of April
and the last week of March,which has weirdly become my
booking season, I guess.
I'm not sure why it shifted likethat, but it has.
so now that I can identify that,I know when to do all my paid

(02:24:43):
ads.
so that I do kind of a slowdrip, like 5 a day all year.
but I know to ramp up and tomake some sort of video content
or something that's veryspecific to the local area that
I want to shoot in, and I Uh,and put that as a paid ad and
promote that the other thingthat I did, so now, I guess, to
be like full transparency, whenyou're in the industry for like
almost 20 years, it becomes alittle bit easier to organically

(02:25:06):
get leads, because you'reprobably a preferred vendor at a
number of venues.
and it does become a lot easierwhen.
I was first, at least before Iwas even really a preferred
vendor at any of the venues,what I was focusing on was just
creating really valuable contentfor a local wedding.
if you're a couple and you'relooking to get married and you
come to my blog, I want to bethe most valuable resource that

(02:25:27):
you've ever found specificallyfor planning a local wedding.
I think every year I did a huge,like how to get, or how to plan
your wedding in KitchenerWaterloo guide.
And.
It did very, very, very well.
It organically did really well.
And then if I put some dollarsinto paid ads for it, it did
even better.
so I would say that was probablythe key for me.

(02:25:47):
the other thing it does is whenyou do a, how to plan a wedding
in your local area, you now havea reason to go and talk to every
single venue that you're not apreferred vendor at and start
that relationship and ask themquestions.
Cause like how many people doesthis room seat, the questions
that no photographers are reallyasking them.
And if you're all of a sudden onkind of almost the marketing

(02:26:08):
side of a venue, they identifythat I think better than just
someone that creates content attheir venue.
if you kind of come at it with amarketing mindset and you're
like, where can I help you?
In Canada, December, January,February, people do get married,
but they need more marketingmaterial for that.
So I identified that prettyquickly that if I do some shoots
in the winter and I showcasetheir properties in the winter,

(02:26:29):
those images are a thousandtimes more valuable than summer
images for them because theyhave a ton of summer content.
and they don't have any greatwinter content and winter
wedding days are hard andchallenging because usually the
ceremony is like pressed upagainst sunset and it's cold.
And, but if you do a style shootand you get out there at 12
noon, where there's still somelight for a couple of hours,
maybe a little bit later thanthat, maybe 2 PM, and you can

(02:26:50):
actually shoot on your ownterms.
It just creates a significantlybetter marketing piece for them.
so I think doing that weddingguides, putting together styled
shoots, connecting with othervendors, was also really, really
important and just kind ofimmersing yourself in the
industry.
I'm going to say even to thisday, pretty much all of my good
friends are all in some wayconnected to the wedding

(02:27:10):
industry, or they're runningtheir own kind of, a similar
business, like a social mediacompany or something like that.
So yeah, I think it'ssurrounding yourself with the
people, to kind of put yourselfin the head space and know that
this is going to be a long term,that this is not just like a,
I'm going to.
Get one friendship and I'm goingto make it next year.
It's like really kind ofimmersing yourself in the
industry and learning how tocreate valuable content for
those people as well.

(02:27:31):
that's also a way that Iprobably forged those
friendships early on was that Ihad something of value to bring
to them.
Maybe we would do a shoot.
Maybe we would do a quickheadshot day or something like
that, or branding photos, and itwould begin there and eventually
become proper friendships.

Are you focusing on a certain type of
vendor?
Like, is it specifically venuesand planners or is it everybody
to like florists and caterers aswell?

it's kinda, I would say more general, so
like pretty much everyone, Iwould say my early friends were
just, it happened to be someonethat owned a dress shop and the
venues are always like kind ofhard to crack because they're a
lot of, at least, um, kind oflike a florist is going to
probably be one person or maybeone or two people, and maybe
they have some staff, to helpout, but venues are a little bit

(02:28:15):
different because there'susually an owner that you've
probably never met.
And then.
There's probably like a GM andthere's probably maybe one or
two people in marketing, butthen also their role as sales.
so it's a little bit morechallenging to just kind of
figure out who to talk to atthose places.
but over time, when you do go toweddings and you shoot at their
venues and you talk to them,maybe that does become a

(02:28:35):
friendship, a relationshipoutside of, just the.
The venue itself.
And at that point, I think it'spretty good.
my wife, Lindsey, is also awedding photographer, and she
does family photos for, I think,pretty much all of the staff
for, maybe 10 different venues.
so obviously that's a positivething for her that she's gonna
be top of mind that it's notonly that she's on the preferred
list.
She's kind of like number one.

(02:28:57):
On the salesperson that'ssitting in the room with a
couple, number one on theirsales or number one on their
mind for who to actuallyrecommend from this list of like
25 photographers or whatever itmight be.
yeah.

Getting on preferred vendors list is
obviously like, an importantthing, right?
it's easier to get recommended.
and I've heard that you say thatlike you try to shoot the
majority of your weddings, likerelatively close to you, even
though I think a lot of peoplelooking at your YouTube channel
probably mostly see like, youknow, helicopter on top of a
mountain and things like that.
Is shooting weddings close toyou?

(02:29:28):
is that by design as well?
or is that just kind ofhappenstance based on your, SEO
stuff?
Yeah.

and shooting downtown is not a happy place
for my brain.
I don't have space.
I like parking sucks.
You gotta go to like fivedifferent venues.
There's a hotel.
You gotta find parking at than achurch.
You gotta find parking at andthen a venue.
You gotta find parking at.
Um, it was very intentional.
The venues that I enjoy shootingthe most, are the ones that kind
of just do everything in onespot on site.
So I've tried a little bitharder to cultivate

(02:29:59):
relationships at those places.
I also feel like I create betterwork there too.
I'm going to say maybe fiveyears ago, maybe like 2018,
2017.
I made a pretty conscious effortthat I was no longer going to be
taking weddings, pretty muchwith it.
With like outside of maybe a onehour radius of where I live and
that's made me a lot happierthat I can wake up I'm not I'm

(02:30:20):
not dreading going downtown forweddings every day.
I wake up for a wedding I'mexcited to go and I'm usually
like two hours early because I'mnot excited to go So yeah, it
was definitely by design.
I would say there's probablymaybe ten venues that I shoot at
Pretty much all year, whichmight creatively sound terrible
for somebody, but I don't mindshooting the same venues over
and over again.
they're always a little bitdifferent, conditions are

(02:30:41):
different.
Sunsets are different, colors.
But yeah, I find comfort inknowing that I'm going in and
I'm kind of like not an officejob, but there's that
comfortable element where I knowa contingency for everything.
And I think that that's alsosomething that my couples enjoy
as well, that they, appreciatethat I'm at their venue pretty
often that I know the staff andthat I kind of can, figure out
the best possible situation.

(02:31:02):
If it does happen to rain, thatI'm a pretty credible person to
kind of make some quickdecisions.
so yeah, it was definitely bydesign.
And, I'm very happy about it,but again, it's very hard to say
no to leads when they come inand you're like, Oh no, too far.
I'm not going to do it.
yeah.
And then the flip side is thatif it requires an airplane, I'm
usually also interested.
So it's like within the one hourradius of home or airplane to

(02:31:23):
cool location.
yeah,

I totally get the, you know, you go to this
place all the time, you're veryfamiliar with it.
it does make it a whole loteasier.
It's just not as much likemental stress, right?
Like it's the Steve Jobs worethe black turtleneck every day
because it's one less thing thathe had to think about, right?
You go there every day, it's oneless thing that you have to
think about.
But then there's photographerslike, as you know, like Sam
Hurd, loves being in a new placebecause it opens up these like

(02:31:46):
creative juices of things that,you know, maybe you've never
seen before.
Do you find that, do you pick amix of these places so that you
can get both?
Yeah.
Does that question even makesense?
I feel like that was a prettybad

Yeah, no, I feel like an interesting thing
with Sam was that if you forcehim to shoot at the same venue
every single weekend, he wouldfind, he would give you a
completely different photo set.
Maybe the ceremony would beconsistent, but.
The couple's portraits wouldalways be completely different.
I feel like I don't really workthat way.
I'm very happy to kind of reallyreuse locations, and to just
kind of do the best of what itdid last week and then add a few

(02:32:20):
things.
So every week that I shoot atthat specific venue, my work
will get a little bit better.
And that couple will probablyget a slightly better, couple
session from it.
so yeah, I don't, I don't know.
I'm, quite happy doing that.
it's my couples, it's their onlywedding day.
I'm also very, usually itdoesn't happen, but I'm also
very aware that if it's areferral from somebody that was
in the wedding party and, Maybethey're getting married at the

(02:32:42):
same venue.
I've had this a few times withfamily that they just had a
connection with a hotel here.
So all three of the sisters allgot married.
I make it a very consciouseffort to do something
completely different in thatcase.
But if they're disconnectedcouples, I usually find that the
more efficient the, at least thephoto process can be for the
couple and for the family andfor the wedding party.
The more efficient that can be,the happier they are.

(02:33:04):
And by shooting there over andover and over again, you really
kind of get that efficiencydialed and you can do a couple
of session in six or sevenminutes and get them back to the
wedding day, which I think theyreally appreciate.

Yeah, no, of course, yeah.
Everybody feels weird in frontof a camera anyway, so.
the shorter you can make it, thebetter.
so then when you, say, travel toa new location, do you spend
time trying to get familiar withit, or are you comfortable
enough with weddings where youcan just kind of go with the
flow?

I'm usually comfortable enough and I also
know that even if I do scout theday before, maybe I'll go and
I'll make sure the sun's notgoing to be in the worst spot
ever for the ceremony.
So the next day, I can kind ofbe like, Hey, can we set up
three feet to the left out ofthis tree?
So one of them isn't in theblinding sun and one is in the,
in the shade.
I'll have a kind of a quick looklike that, but then also I know
that the conditions are usuallygoing to be completely
different, the next day.

(02:33:48):
So yeah, I'll go for a walkaround.
I'll maybe find a few locationsthat I think are interesting.
and I'll keep those in my mind.
And if we have time to get tothem, awesome.
If not, I'm usually pretty goodwith just kind of finding good
light.
That's always what I'm lookingfor.
First is if I can find goodlight and an average background
and the couple looks amazing andthe background is kind of like
mid, I'm fine with that.

(02:34:08):
But.
If I have found an amazingbackground location, I'm trying
to make it work with a coupleand then maybe I have to bring
an off camera light tocompensate for some lighting
that's just not going my way andthey don't end up looking as
good in that picture.
I would say that's a lessvaluable photo for them overall,
especially when I'm just kind ofthe one picking random locations
at their venue.
so yeah, always looking forlight first.

yeah, yeah, yeah.
let's go back for a minute, backto the, kind of the booking
process.
because emails are things that Iget questions about all the
time.
Like, what do you email yourclients and in between the year
that they've paid you, thatthey've booked you and like
their wedding date.
So, how do you handle that?
Do you have an efficient processor are you, emailing them weekly
with updates?
Um,

so an interesting thing happened.
so I'm a part owner of a companycalled focal, which builds
websites and does some otherthings.
And when I joined them, Lachlan,the CEO was like, you need to
list your pricing public.
And I was like, what?
That's crazy.
I can never do that.
And then I did it.
And I realized the, the couplesthat I attract now don't care

(02:35:12):
for any additionalcommunication.
so it used to be that I would goback and forth and I would send
kind of like, Hey, here's fivethings you need to know about
getting ready for yourengagement session.
And now my couples come in, theyhit the request a book button
and I get an email.
I would say 50 percent of thetime we do a call.
no in person meetings.
I haven't done an in personmeeting since like 2020 now, I

(02:35:32):
guess.
And the process is way moresimple.
And I would say back and forthemail for, from booking a
couple, to the wedding day ismaybe like 14 email total.
So like seven from them, sevenfrom me.
so I'm very, very happy thatthat was something that Lachlan
forced me into.
But yeah, he was like, basicallythe, the way our websites work

(02:35:52):
is that like, if you do this,you'll get bookings.
Cause like everything kind offunnels to that.
and the idea I think for him wasthat it's, kind of like the,
car, I don't know, like the usedcar lot or maybe new car lot, it
could be a new car where yourcouple, when they walk in, if
they know exactly what theywant, they know the exact like
trim model that they knoweverything that they want of the
car, like they go in and they'relike, can I have this?

(02:36:14):
And then there's this weirdsales process.
It's just not so good.
So now it seems like the morestreamlined I make it, the more
streamlined my couples become.
And I don't know if that's likea, maybe like that I'm training
them in some way that like, wedon't need to communicate that
much and it's fine.
but yeah, my communications comedown drastically.
So it's pretty much like, ifthey do an engagement session,
which is again, like becomingincreasingly more rare for me,

(02:36:36):
we will kind of schedule a timeusually in that, in those first
few, um, email, um, Pick a timeand then I'll send them like a,
Hey, excited to meet up at thisexact location at this time
again, see you tomorrow.
after that I send them thegallery from that.
And then it's usually like amonth before the wedding.
when final payments also do,that I just kind of asked for

(02:36:57):
the final schedule.
And again, there's comfort inworking at the same venues
because I know pretty much theschedule that if there's
ceremonies at 4 PM, I know thatI'm probably starting at noon
and I'm going to be there until10.
So, yeah, like going through theschedule to make sure there's no
kind of red flags in it.
but other than that, it's prettyfine tuned now, which is kind of
nice.
Um, I appreciate that.

(02:37:18):
I would say, yeah, like in termsof email, it's probably like a
500 percent decrease since Ichanged my pricing, um, on my
site.

So then let me ask, do you think that is crazy?
Do you think that, that'spossible because of how
established you are as a weddingphotographer in your location?
Or do you think that a newphotographer could implement
putting their pricing on theirwebsite and seeing the exact
same thing?

I think it's going to be location specific
perhaps, and I'm not going topretend that I know every single
market in the world.
I guess I should have prefacedthat all with it has worked for
me specifically here.
I think one thing that I do havethat I've been in the industry
for a long time is, Basicallytrust as well.
And also doing all this, YouTubestuff, people know that I exist.
I feel like a lot of the earlyfollowups I would get from

(02:38:07):
couples, in my, my younger daysas a photographer, we're pretty
much people pinging me to belike, you still exist, our
wedding still on your calendar.
Right.
And it was just kind of likeunnecessary communication.
Whereas now I feel like there'sa little bit more trust there.
so I think that's probably a keypart of it as well.
so yeah, I think that if I was.
younger in the industry, I wouldbe doing as many things as I

(02:38:28):
possibly could to just create asmuch trust as I possibly could,
both on my website and on socialmedia.
if I'm doing like YouTube videocontent, I'd be showing up to
venues and doing venue tours andwalking people through kind of
what their wedding could looklike.
And, maybe involving the venuestaff on that as well.
those would be kind of thosethings that I would be doing.
So people trust me and maybecommunicate a little bit less,

(02:38:48):
but then also are a heck of alot more likely to book, which
would be kind of more key atthat time.
Um, but yeah, I ran my, likestarting at rate on my website
from like 2006 or 2005 until,um, Pretty much I joined with a
focal and then that's been verynice time.
So, yeah, it worked for me, butagain, that's a, I don't know

(02:39:09):
everyone's exact market andexactly what's going to happen
if you try that.
So maybe split test if you can.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do it.
Do it for one month.
Turn it off for the next.
it just might be scary.
I think for a lot of newphotographers to know that their
emails are going to take a bigdip right by posting all of
your, pricing out there.
So I appreciate you sharingthat, just to try it out.
let's move forward to the actualday of the wedding.
we've conquered the bookingprocess, the time up until the

(02:39:34):
wedding.
Let's talk about the wedding.
if efficiency is the goal foryou at a wedding, and you're
doing two jobs most of the time,being a photographer and
videographer, doing the hybridcoverage, how do you, like, Some
people show up with a ton ofgear to a wedding for every
possible situation.
Some people show up with only,you know, 35, 85, and then
that's it.
As far as gear goes for you,what do you bring into a wedding

(02:39:56):
to ensure that you can captureit all?

So I'll also say when we do video, we're only
doing highlight coverage.
so we're basically making them amusic video.
so we're not doing like full,like tripod, three cam ceremony.

Are you worried

an I tried not to do that.
no audio typically, unless theyreally want it.
I discovered something weirdwith, with audio when I included
it one time as a bonus, that.
People don't like the sound oftheir voice and it's a little
jarring whenever the video openswith like, with their voice and
they're like, ah, I don't knowif I like that.
I realized that maybe that's nota value add that that's maybe if
they didn't want it, maybethat's a value they don't want.

(02:40:30):
So yeah, we just basically makea music video.
So I shoot everything with thesame camera.
I just switch between photo andvideo all day and I bring
everything in.
it's like a peak design,whatever the messenger bag is.
and everything fits in there.
I bring two cameras.
I bring, Tamron 35mm 150mm hasbeen like amazing for ceremonies
and you can obviously shoot theentire day with it, but it's

(02:40:52):
just crazy that one lens couldjust kind of like basically do
everything that I need.
so I'll have that for whateverpart of the day I need it for.
and then other parts of the dayI'm usually either on a 35mm or
an 85mm Pretty much all day,85mm for most of the reception,
35mm for getting ready.
maybe some portraits.
and then I have a 20mm in my bagas well as just a safety in case
it's, it's always a cake cutthat it's in like the stupidest

(02:41:14):
spot and you're pressed upagainst the wall.
and you just need a wider lens.
So I have a 20mm for that.
I'll use that for five photos ofthe day, unless the party is
crazy, then I'll use it formore.
but yeah, that's it.
So how many is that?
Five, four

Something like that.
Real quick though, what do youmean if the reception is crazy,
you'll use the 20 more?

just like if the crazier the party gets, the
wider I usually get.
if there's five people, slowdancing on the dance floor, I'll
probably be at 85 to make itlook pretty.
But if it gets like crazy andeveryone's on the dance floor
and it's a proper party rightoff the start, I'll usually get
a little bit wider to kind ofjust capture all of that.
I feel like it just like, Iguess it's also comes down to
the couple that if you know,it's going to be a party party,

(02:41:54):
That I will probably want tocapture that a little bit more.
And I might do some flash withdrag shutter.
Whereas if it's a more calmbeginning to the dancing section
of the day, um, I'll usually gokind of bounce flash and, make
things look a little bit, Idon't know, maybe slightly
prettier than real life.
yeah,

I gotcha.
So, what about, lighting gear,like you just said?
you bring in multiple flashes,you got all the modifiers, or
what does it look like?

yeah, usually one flash.
So I've, I also have backups ofall of this in my car as well.
so I'm usually one flash, speedlight and I think I'm on the
Godox.
V1 might check out the V pro,the new one.
I'm on that pretty much all day,but with the high ISO
capabilities, the cameras now,and the fact that I'm also
shooting photo and video, for ifmy settings are set up for off
camera flash and I'm switchingbetween photo and video, it's a

(02:42:40):
little clunky.
I could probably do secondcamera as photo camera and one
is video camera, but I find thatmost of the venues, at least
that I'm shooting at, thequality of light is good.
Just sometimes it's very dim.
so sometimes I'll have to be uparound like 10, 000 ISO, which I
think is fine with currentcamera models.
If I was shooting on my Nikon D750, maybe I wouldn't push it

(02:43:01):
that far, but, I'm pretty happyto go ambient.
Um, until there's just like astupid pot light, like right
above the podium or something.
We'll just move the podiumactually.
we won't change the day toomuch, but if, if it's a three to
four foot move of something thatdoesn't really matter, we'll try
to set that up.
And then if we are doing kind ofthat full rolling coverage of
speeches, we'll have a StellaPro.

(02:43:23):
LED Light so it's just aconstant light, that we'll set
up kind of as a spotlight in theback.
we'll also use it sometimes fordancing as well, if it's a very,
very dark dance floor.
but yeah, I would say everythird wedding I'm probably using
flash or some sort of off cameralight.
And then the other ones, theother two, I'm pretty much going
ambient all day.
again, you need the lenses toallow you to do that.
some nice f1.4 f1.8 glass butyeah, I've been pretty happy

(02:43:47):
overall.

So, you said every two or three weddings,
you'll use flash.
That's just because the qualityof light is, is different
between venues or weddings timeof day.

Or like getting ready location.
Maybe it's like really side litand there's just a bunch of like
incandescent lights on and it'slike really kind of mixed light.
but if everything is consistentand good, I know the limits.
So maybe test and see what yourcomfort level is.
AI has a lot of good solutionsfor reducing noise now, which is
nice.
But, yeah, I would, say thatmost of my weddings I'm pretty
much ambient.

(02:44:17):
For the entire day, maybe thedancing part of the day.
at that point I have to bring itto a flash at most weddings.
Maybe, maybe I lied.
I'm sorry.
Um, at that point I'll usuallyhave, yeah, I'll usually have a
flash.
but then also we're typicallyonly there for first dances and
if they have like a nicelighting setup, like the DJ
brought some proper stuff thathe kind of just does my three
point lighting for me, like,that's awesome.

(02:44:38):
I'll take that.
and that's also what the daylooked like as well, which I'm,
I do my best to be conscious ofthat if they.
Did the lighting design and theytalked with the venue and this
is how they wanted it set up.
I don't wanna override all thatjust to make more light and to
bring my ISO down.
So I'm gonna do my best to kindof incorporate the day that
they've spent the past, likeyear or two putting together.
I'm gonna do my best to kindacapture that for them.

Yeah, of course.
So, in a wedding day, would yousay, how many photos do you
think you take in a full weddingday?
Right.

like, I would say 4,000 would be like a
high day.
And now 4,000 is like a regularday, 4,000 images.
And I will typically deliver,somewhere around like 600, 700.
And the problem now withmirrorless is that everything is
so like bang on perfect thatit's like almost challenging to
get rid of stuff.
But I, I am a little moreconscious to just be like, I
don't need five of this scenewhen this one is clearly the

(02:45:30):
best photo.
same with family photos as well.
And AI calling helps out withthat, that any blinks just
disappear.
Any kind of softer photos, canalso disappear pretty quickly.
So yeah, probably 4, 000 to 7,000 images on a wedding day, I
would say.
and my weddings are typicallyabout eight hours.
So if we're doing like a multiday event, obviously it's going
to be different, but kind ofthat eight hour day usually fits
into kind of that, that frame.

Yeah.
How important is it for you to,get it right in camera versus,
let me just get the shot and Ican do whatever I need to and
post afterwards?

I shoot video too, so I have to get it
right in camera.
I have no leverage.
I have some, but I can't changewhite balance.
I'm not shooting raw video.
so I would say my camera ispretty much always set up that,
I would say most weddings.
This also comes from doing overa thousand weddings in my
career.
I would say that most weddings,if I just delivered the JPEGs, I
would be pretty happy with that.

(02:46:23):
so I shoot everything prettymuch as like final delivery.
I also shoot all my video with aburnt in look, which I'm sure
cinema people make some cringe abit.

They'll get over it.

I, yeah, I just shoot everything exactly
kind of as I want it to be.
and then I think that comes fromat least on the photo side, I
think that came from the.
My offsite backup used to beJPEGs only, because my internet
sucked and I couldn't upload rawfiles and I didn't want to
convert to DNG as an upload.
so for the first like 10 yearsof my business, I basically had
JPEGs as my backup that wereoffsite and I wanted those to be

(02:46:55):
deliverable if I ever neededthem.
So I shoot raw JPEG in my cameraand I think I was shooting like
the fine quality JPEGs.
And, yeah, there's, there's beentimes.
The couples will reach out fromlike 2008 and they'll be like,
Hey, do you sell our weddingphotos?
And I'll be like, yeah, they arein a drive, but like, what do
you need?
And if it's like, Oh, we justneed like this one photo.
I'll check out the JPEG.
That's still backed up online.

(02:47:15):
I'm like, ah, that's, that'sfine.
And then I'll maybe add a littlesomething extra to just kind of
fit what I think I was probablydoing at that time, I've been
pretty happy.
Um, I guess it's also like a funlittle game, trying to get it
like as right as you can incamera and it makes you happier.
And if your couples happen tocatch a glance of it, also
happier, I

Yeah, there's a I once had a photo that I knew
I had to intentionallyunderexposed because there was
so much like beautiful skydetail and their reaction was so
great in the photo, but theywere, dramatically underexposed.
But when I showed them the backof the camera, they were like,
Oh, like, you know, not knowing,uh, the power of editing and
what you could do, bringing upthe shadows and post.

(02:47:53):
But, that reaction, was bad.
So yeah, getting it right incamera.
It's always, uh, always good toshow them the, uh, the good

that would be a situation though.
Like if you are technically in akind of box into a corner, um,
that, you know, you have toshoot like that then.
Yeah.
but again, like AI editing,we'll just fix that and make it
look like however you fixed itlast

Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
knowing what can be done.
not everybody fully understandsthat.
So let's go ahead and talk aboutediting then because, I know
that, editing, interestinglyenough, I remember in our last
conversation, you said that likevery early on, you knew that you
were going to hire, an editorfor all of your photos.
And like, to me, that's about asefficient as it gets.
Right.
tell me about the decision to dothat and kind of where that

(02:48:31):
process is now.

Yeah.
It's been, a bit of a journey.
I began using a company, andthen I started, I started I
think I switched to a real humanbeing.
she was like, Hey, I'm open forediting services.
And then she got kind ofovercapacity and I was, I went
back to another company.
that was just like, basically atthat point I was able to upload,
DNG files and they would editfrom those and that lasted for a

(02:48:55):
few years.
I think I bounced between all ofthe major, like outsourcing
official companies in thewedding.
Um, Industry.
And then I eventually, went backto using a real human being
because it was just a little biteasier because it was my
roommate.
so that was very nice and veryeasy.
And now I am using imagine,which has been kind of like the
easiest that I don't have tosend files anywhere.

(02:49:15):
I guess I send files to theirservice and it's just done
though.
but usually the night of thewedding, I am, I would say my
wedding process now is that Iwill go, I will do the wedding.
And I will come home and by thatpoint, I've usually sat down at
dinner and I've actually calledthrough most of my images.
so I've called all the way todinner and as my images are

(02:49:36):
loading into my computer here, Igo through and I select the
last, maybe two hours ofcoverage.
And by that point, I put them ina Lightroom catalog and then
send them to Imagine and go tosleep.
And by the time I wake up in themorning, It only takes like 10
minutes, but, I just go tosleep.
I wake up in the morning and Ifinalize the gallery and now my
offsite backup is a finalizedgallery, which makes me so, so

(02:49:57):
happy.
so yeah, there's positives andnegatives to everything.
I think working with a realhuman being is very nice.
especially when there's trustand you know that it's a final,
final gallery, whereas there'llstill be some tweaks that I
might have to make, on my imageswhen they come back now.
But yeah, I think I was hesitantat the beginning.
I'm like, there's no way thatthis pattern recognition system
could just figure it out andjust like edit for me.

(02:50:18):
And it did.
So, yeah,

That is a scary thing, right?
to give up control.
and I know that a lot of, newerphotographers are, I guess one,
there's this idea that if yououtsource your editing, you're
removing part of your creativeprocess, like who you are as a
photographer, but also like fromhaving shot weddings for a
number of years, like Iunderstand, there's also like a
business element to it.
Talk to me about that.

(02:50:40):
like share with me as somebodywho has outsourced your editing
for years.
was it hard for you to give upthat control as well?

I think so.
I feel like now it's almost comeback that I have more control
over it.
Cause I do see, the finalgallery, but in Lightroom and I
export it so I can actually gothrough and change things out.
Whereas before I would just begetting JPEGs back and that
would be the final gallery.
And if I had any tweaks I couldkind of help or like I might
have to go back to the raw fileand it was a little clunky.

(02:51:07):
so I would say overall I feellike I'm kind of more in it now.
also the profile that you buildis based on like your past
editing.
So it's basically any way thatyou would have edited a photo.
it will just see like, okay,last time you were in the last
five times, you were in abacklit situation.
This is exactly where you putthe exposure and the white
balance and it will just.
Sync that new file that it'sseeing for the first time, to

(02:51:28):
what you've done in the past.
so I think that's also kind ofhelpful cause it's based on my
edits.
So it's not like I'm just likeclicking like an auto button in
Lightroom and it's just going.
it's something that I've spentthe past like bunch of years
building.
or at least building the, thecontent that the system
interprets.
But yeah, I would say I'm finewith it.
but there's definitely.
there's probably like a one yearlearning curve, or maybe a one

(02:51:50):
year window where you're almostkind of forced into it.
And if you want to continue toactually have a life outside of
your business, if you'reshooting like 30, 40, 50
weddings a year, I don't thinkthat you can do that.
you have to hire someone and thefaster you can get comfortable
with that, the faster you areable to spend that time on
marketing and actually scaleyour business, and make more
money, which allows you to hiremaybe more people.

(02:52:11):
Maybe you start hiring associateshooters to deal with the volume
cause you're so good atmarketing and you're now getting
thousands of leads a year.
yeah.
So I would say that wassomething that I was, I knew it
was going to be a thing.
so maybe I.
I set myself up to know that Iwas going to be okay with it
pretty early on.
But yeah, it's, a huge, a hugepart of my business, I would
say.
And the reason that I'm able tokind of do all the YouTube stuff
and, to have a life in thesummer as well, which is kind of

(02:52:34):
nice.

Yeah, must be nice to, have those.
I appreciate you sharingeverything that you did today in
terms of your whole workflowsharing why, efficiency is
important as well as how you'redoing it because, I think
getting over the stress of, Likefor one just learning your
camera but then Knowing thatthen you want to get into
business and all the things thatcome along with that and you got

(02:52:55):
to be all the places, you knowall at once all the social media
profiles everywhere all the timeit's difficult.
So, just hearing a little bitabout your backstory I know has
really helped me and I I knowthat it's going to help the
guests as well So, taylor beforeI let you go let us know if you
know those listening have neverheard of you They have no idea
who you are what it is thatyou're doing.
Where can we find you online?
You

YouTube is probably the best spot.
I have, I think like 80 fullwedding days up there now.
so if you are interested inwedding photography, I have you
covered and also on every camerasystem.
So if you're on Nikon, Canon,Sony, Fuji, I got weddings for
you up there.
and yeah, I would say that'sprobably the main place where
Instagram I'm at Taylor Jackson.

I can't believe we're already almost to
the end.
Finally today, we are going tohear from Carney Arrely, a
photographer who shecrowdsourced real images of
motherhood to change thecultural perspective.
So you're going to learn how toembrace imperfection and
authenticity in yourphotographs.
Karni talks about the importanceof capturing the duality of

(02:53:54):
motherhood, you know, to presenta more realistic portrayal of,
what it's like.
So you're gonna learn how tocultivate self belief and
resilience in your creativeprocess, especially when facing
challenges like knowing when aproject is done, when it's
complete.
And finally, Carney is going toemphasize the value of
connection and collaborationwhen she shares just how great

(02:54:16):
photography is enhanced byworking with trusted partners
and building a global community.
Carnie, my first question forya, I try to keep this an easy
one.
I want to know, when did youknow that photography, and in
particular just creating images,or telling stories, was going to
be an important role in yourlife?

Karni Arieli (02:54:35):
I'm not sure.
I think I was a late bloomer, tobe honest, because I didn't
really find photography till Iwas maybe 16.
which I think for today feelsreally late considering everyone
grows up with an iPhone and acamera and another camera and
another iPhone and, you know, soI had a camera knocking about
that was my grandfather's and mydad's.

(02:54:57):
And I think at some point when Iwas a teenager, I started,
directing my friends a littlebit and my sister and creating
small stories that I thinkhelped me make sense of the
world.
I think people who are creative,you know, I knew I wasn't a
writer, but I wasn't sure what Iwas.
And I think when I startedtaking pictures and I saw they

(02:55:19):
were interesting and I likedcreating in a way, slightly
fantastical scenarios, actually.
And working with people andportraits in particular, I just
felt that I was good at it, thatI had something to say.
And I think what was coming outwas this, often photography is
really good at channelingsomething subliminal, something
from under the surface that youhaven't said verbally or that

(02:55:43):
you haven't even thought of, butit will come out there in your
art and kind of face you andconfront you.
I think it felt therapeutic aswell as like, that I knew what I
wanted to see or create.
So, and it kind of evolved fromthere.
And then I started shootingsome, fashion shoots or some
little portraits for people andbuilding my confidence, going to

(02:56:06):
art school.
And at some point there was nolooking back.
Like, I think it felt verynatural to me.
I come from a family ofstorytellers, but much more
verbal communicators or morewriting.
And I am a talker, but I feellike when I talk, it's like I'm

(02:56:28):
too much in control in a way.
It's like I'm saying what I wantto say, whereas when I
photograph, the photograph tellsme what it wants to be.
And I think that's a much morein a way, maybe honest
communication or surprising or Iguess artistic because, it kind
of comes, it just like comesfrom nowhere nearly.

(02:56:48):
And that's, I guess that'sinspiration.
That's maybe the people who arein front of you and that's like
all the dots connecting, thecamera being there, you having
your point of view and theperson you're interacting with
or the scenario.
just coming into place in yoursquare frame, suddenly you'll
just see something that makessense or that's interesting or

(02:57:11):
light, that hits it just so orwhatever.
And, you know, that point ofview of the world, I guess it
brings me joy as well.
Like I guess finding pieces ofbeauty in a world that can often
not make sense.
brings me joy, so I stuck to it.

You had those thoughts at 16 years old?
Because I remember the thoughtsthat I had at 16 and they were
nowhere near that point yet.

This is all, I don't think you know any story
until you look backwards.
So I think only in hindsight,you can make sense of like what
steps you took and what led youthere.
I think when I was younger, Ijust probably was a bit lost and
picked up a camera and it helpedme make sense, right?
So, and it helped me connectwith people and have some fun.

(02:57:55):
And in a very basic sense, Ithink it was just like cool or
whatever, or just like somethingI could do that not everyone
could do.
and then I think in hindsight,it was all these things that I
understood that, you know, Icome from divorced parents and I
had a good childhood, but Ithink I was a little bit lost, I
was going to a lot of partiesand I think I wanted to make

(02:58:17):
sense of what I was seeing andthe world and this helped me.
This tool was something and thislooking, you know, looking
closely at things.
is something I enjoy.

So then let me ask, back then when you were 16,
you had mentioned earlier, goingto art school, also, doing some
fashion.
Did you jump straight into sayportraits at that time?
Or were you just photographingeveryday life?

I don't think I ever really photographed
everyday life.
That came when I was much older.
Like now I like to just findthings on walks or with my kids
or, and photograph them, but inthe, or maybe direct parts of
it.
have a mix.
But I think at the beginning, Ilike to create scenes because
life didn't seem thatfascinating.

(02:59:02):
when you go to school and you'relike doing the walk and you're
in school and then you're athome, living at home, but kind
of like dreaming of otherthings.
And I think I had to createfantasies.
I remember climbing into a treewith my mom's old wedding dress
and somebody taking a picture ofme and then me, being like, at
photographing, my friend who Iwas with and so like, we would

(02:59:24):
like wear clothes or go intoslightly surreal scenarios, to
maybe, I guess, create littlestories.
And even when I did fashion, itwasn't really fashion, try and
get them placed in somemagazines, but I think it was
more like little scenes offantasy that were acting out I
guess the way I felt in theworld or like things I was

(02:59:47):
uncomfortable with or things Ididn't know or things I did know
but not using myself ever as thesubject.
I always used someone else.
I never did self, well, I did dosome self portraiture when I
was, you know, in art school,but mostly I like to focus on
other people, but I think it's aself portrait still.
even though I cast, it's likeI'm casting someone as me.

(03:00:10):
That's how I see it.

Yeah.
I completely get that.
It's like, I've said it on thepodcast before there's that
Ansel Adams quote that there'stwo people in every photo.
There's the photographer andthere's the viewer.
So in a sense you are injectinga piece of yourself into every
photo.
I love that.
So at what point, you said thatyou had went to.
art school.
I've found in talking withpeople that they either go to
school for one of two reasons.

(03:00:33):
One, because it's just what youdo, or two, they know that
they're lacking in that area.
they know exactly where they'relacking and they need to get
better.
So, I guess which one of the twocamps, do you feel like, you fit
into?
Or is there a third camp?

It's a camp that your mom signs you up to art
school because she's afraidyou're lost and you're going to
travel forever and never comeback.
And, she signed me up to thisart school that was more of a
general art school and I starteddabbling in all sorts of art.
So sculpture, painting, andphotography.
But I think that was a reallynice rounded way of trying out
different things.

(03:01:09):
But I knew I was always best atphotography.
Like I, I did some sculpture.
I like that.
I'm horrible at drawing.
I like dance theater.
I like moving image and I likephotography.
And again, they're all like verymuch related to the eye.
and less to like the hand.
I'm not very crafty, but I'vegot a good eye.
And so, painting didn't suit me.

(03:01:30):
But, once I was there, I decidedto then specialise.
and move on more to focus onphotography.
And I think I did love, youknow, once I decided to like
follow that strength, you get indeeper.
And I think I did really enjoylike history of photography,
going into the dark room, withall those like smells and like

(03:01:51):
seeing an image come up on apaper.
I guess it's like, Like being amagician, you're like capturing,
you know how they always saylike that people, you can
capture their soul in aphotograph or whatever, or
they'd be scared to bephotographed in case you steal
their soul.
And I think there is some likemagic and like fantasy and
mystery in the whole process oflike capturing an image.

(03:02:13):
Because one minute it's In theworld and another it's on a
paper and it doesn't really makesense.
Like even though I know theprocess, something about that is
totally bonkers.
if you think about it, like whenpeople discovered photography,
they must've been blown away tolike own a piece of the world on
a piece of paper, it's kind ofcrazy.

(03:02:36):
And I think, that's what'sreally incredible that you get
to own the world and you get toown it through your own eyes.
So you create or you see theworld in a certain way and that
perspective and that point ofview is then collected onto this
piece of paper or like image youcan own and.
And it explains so much oftenand it's really exciting.

(03:02:57):
So, and then of course, lookingat other people's work is really
crucial and collaboration.
you know, my kids, my eldest isnow 17 and he's in art school
and, I always say to him, theone thing that I think is really
crucial in art school is like tocollaborate and to learn from
each other and to do trial anderror and to make a million

(03:03:20):
horrible pieces of work and thena good piece of work, because
what we often don't realize isonce you go into the world, it's
a lot harder to play around.
Like then you have to make aliving.
You have to have an apartment,you have to like move out of
your mom's or whatever, or not.
and so I'm like, well, reallyjust.
Go crazy in art school, likereally make every, don't, don't

(03:03:43):
get drunk and lie on the floorfor the whole two years.
That's not going to get youanywhere.
I mean, you really should justlike play a lot and, try things
and experiment and collaborate.
And be inspired, often the bestideas, we know this from people
who have made it big in theworld.
They're usually inspired byother things, like cross

(03:04:03):
pollination and little ideasthat come into their ether.
and I'm sure I've beeninfluenced along the way by lots
of, books I've seen and peopleI've met.
And so I think that's reallyimportant in the sense of like
the art school.
And it's so much fun, likeeveryone getting together to
discuss and make art.
Which in the grander scheme ofthings, like in the world, art

(03:04:25):
isn't considered in a par withlike being a doctor or a lawyer.
But in art school, you are thedoctor and the lawyer, right?
Because It's like the place it'slike where you're considered
like the big shot in art schoolis like the person who makes
great art, and so I think that'sa really good place to get
confident and, so I did quite afew years in art school and, but

(03:04:48):
not everybody needs it.
You know, my partner's more of alike.
He teaches himself more.
He's like self taught and he's abit more of a loner, but he's
also an animator.
They tend to be loners.
Exactly.

It's

a different type of person.
And not everybody loves, the artschool.
And I don't think you can teachart.
Like I think you can teacheverything that goes around it,
like history of art, like thetechniques, you can like help
you.
People hone in on what they'retalented at and like the
critiques are really useful tolike figure stuff out to know
what you want to stand up forand but in another way I think

(03:05:24):
you should really follow whatyou love and what you know is
best because People feel morecomfortable with what they
already know and have alreadyseen.
Which means that anything that'savant garde or forward thinking
is at first going to be treatedwith suspicion.
Like people aren't going toalways fall in love with it
straight away.
just like a song that's like abit more catchy, right?

(03:05:46):
And you like love it straightaway, but then the weird ones
you really fall in love with,but it takes time sometimes.

So then let me ask you, a question.
This isn't really related to thepodcast, but, do you think that
art can exist then in a vacuum?
if we can't teach art, but wehave to teach essentially, it
sounds like the self expressionand show art in the past.
Do you think that art can becreated without, oh, but I guess
that's hard because I mean, youcan see everything as a form of
art.

(03:06:12):
So you can get inspirationeverywhere.
I don't know.
I'll let you answer thatquestion.
Do you think that art can existin a vacuum?
Yeah.

I don't know.
I mean, I think part of the joyof art is there's a few stages
in the joy of art.
One of it, often it cuts, startsfrom pain.
That's the weird thing.
So it will start from some painor discomfort, usually move into
like self expression and selftherapy, but then there's this
other bit where you connect toothers through it and they see

(03:06:41):
it and they see you through it.
and you get to change somethingin the world or in the way
people see you or others or, andI feel that that is quite a big
part of art.
So I would say that in thevacuum, you might get some
satisfaction, but I thinkthere's a huge part of it that's
in the connection and then intaking it out into the world,

(03:07:01):
Other people connect to you thatlike your art and people see it
and feel better looking at yourart and you can change
misconceptions like with iMamachanging the way people looked
at motherhood in the arts, so Ithink it's a huge bit and it
would be a shame, to lose that.
But of course, if you take apile of like sticks in the
forest and do a little sculptureand nobody sees it, that's still

(03:07:25):
art, right?
I mean, maybe only the squirrelswill enjoy it, but, you know,
they need art too.
So, and by the way, I think youcan teach art in the sense that
I think just through someonegoing through a process of
failure and success, trial anderror, collaboration and like
solitude, learning tools, honingin on their vision, that is

(03:07:50):
teaching something.
Like that's teaching a lot, it'sthe only thing I think you can't
teach probably is that somethingthat, that either perspective
you have on the world or thatspark of inspiration that you'd
probably need to get in there.
But.
Possibly you could, it could ruboff on you from others as well.
Like maybe you go in and you'rea bit like, I don't know, but

(03:08:12):
then you get the bug, right?
you get into it more deeply.
So I think you can change as aperson too.
I think there's that option.
we're not just one line, right?
We have an arc.
So I think it can be taught.
I just feel like there'sprobably some bit that you come
with and that is your own pointof view on the world, your own
take on the world, your own eye.

(03:08:32):
and that's what makes it unique.
that's what makes it special.

Yeah.
Yeah.
So then, let's kind of, switchgears here.
I could talk about this stuffall day and it's really
exciting, but, I know that Ihave you for a limited time.
So, I want to talk about, your.
Project iMama.
In your own words, can you tellme like what was the seed that
had started this whole project?
Maybe it wasn't fully formedyet, but what had got this ball

(03:08:58):
rolling?

Well, it was 2020 and we all know what happened in
2020 because we were all in thesame little blue planet that was
suddenly unified by having thisvirus, this, COVID, epidemic
that broke out.
And we were all going intolockdown.
I live in Bristol, UK.
We were at home.
I had two kids at that time.

(03:09:19):
They were, I have two kids, butat that time they were five and,
15, maybe I have a big gap.
So, one of them was five, thelittle one, when lockdown
started, I was like everyoneelse, like quite scared and
like, Oh my God, is this the endof humanity, you know, and I do
what I usually do.
You know, I was a bit sick atthe beginning.
I might've had COVID and when Istarted recovering, I picked up

(03:09:42):
the camera and that usually.
gives me some power back todocument and makes me feel like
things are going to be okay.
Because if you're thinking aboutart, you're probably not dying.
usually there's like, you'regoing to be okay.
So, you know, as document, itmight be a false reassurance, by
the way, but it is reassuring.
Because obviously, like aphotojournalist, might think

(03:10:03):
that and that might not be thecase.
Anyway, I was documenting mykids in the garden and
documenting light on the walland little things to bring me
joy and to connect to the worldand try and make sense of
everything that was a bitbonkers, I'm lucky to have a
garden and, so I was takingthese pictures and I was
scrolling on social mediabecause I'm also a filmmaker and

(03:10:24):
I work with my partner with adirecting duo called Kani and
Saul, uh, Sulky Bunnies, ourstudio.
And I was scrolling on socialmedia and seeing my feed.
I follow a lot of women.
I follow a lot of the femalegays because that's what
interests me.
And I guess I feel like that'smy people, right?
Like a lot of visions andvisuals made by women.

(03:10:46):
and traditionally in art school,you're seeing the male gays a
lot.
So for me, it was like morefresh and, more personal.
And so, I'm looking at all theseimages and literally on my feed,
nearly like a curated feed, Ijust see endless images of like
these peepholes into homesworldwide, taken by women and
mothers onto their own families,like an introspective look.

(03:11:10):
at motherhood, home, and familywithin pandemic, like the head
of a child, a mushed biscuit,crushed biscuit on the floor, a
mother holding a child, a selfportrait of a mother
breastfeeding, a child having atantrum, all of these things
that we know so well.
I never deemed that interesting,but I was finding this portfolio

(03:11:31):
fascinating.
Like I couldn't look awaybecause I was going through the
same thing myself.
So I'm a mom and I'm aphotographer.
So that, that cross section ofmy artist self and my mother
self had this cross section andI had never really, I mean, I
always photograph my kids, but Ihadn't sent it out into the

(03:11:52):
world that much and, or used it.
And the art world is usuallyquite exclusive and doesn't
really deem family life asinteresting in the art world or
whatever.
I would kind of leave it athome, like a separate identity.
But here, what I was seeing wasall these photojournalists, all
these art photographers, allthese fine art, women and
artists were photographing thesame thing.

(03:12:15):
They were all like, they had nochoice.
They were all turning the camerainwardly.
So usually they would be like ona job or going here or there.
And suddenly they were allforced to do that kind of, look
at themselves.
And I was like, wow.
this is so incredible, this bodyof work that's by, professional
photographers looking atsomething that was deemed

(03:12:35):
uninteresting in history.
Boring, mundane, even like, oh,you're just a mom, oh, you're
just a dad, oh, boring, ho ho,boring, boring.
or like not art worthy orwhatever, suddenly I was like,
Oh my God, this looks likereally powerful work.
And I wonder if anyone's evercollected it, and then did some

(03:12:56):
research and was like, well,there's one book from 2013
called Home Truths.
with very few artists.
It's a good book, but like wellknown fine artists, very
minimal, in number.
And I couldn't find anythingelse.
there's family of man, that'smostly taken by men.
There's a few mothers in there.
There's a few womenphotographers in there, but it's
like, it was taken in a timewhere it was impossible.

(03:13:18):
And I was like, What if we'dcollect all of this work and
make a platform and a book andin history, like a thousand
years from now, people couldpick up a book and say, Oh, this
is what motherhood looked likein 2020.
Because we don't have that forworld wars or other big events,

(03:13:38):
major events, famine or war orthe world wars or the Holocaust.
You don't have those bodies ofwork because there weren't
enough women who are mothers whoare empowered enough to be
photographers.
And the men were usuallypointing their lenses outwardly
because that's where theinteresting things were deemed.
To be like outward, nobody, likeoften very few people turn their

(03:14:00):
lens inwardly.
So then I started collecting it,on Instagram slowly.
And, the rest is history.
it just dawned on me.
I couldn't believe this body ofwork didn't exist because
parenthood and motherhood hasexisted forever.
since the dawn of time.
And since photography existed,obviously they, at first they

(03:14:20):
weren't any women or very fewwomen.
They were actually few in quitefrom the start, but I think they
just weren't enough.
And then I found out, the worldat 2020 was such that there were
so many women photographers anda lot of these women
photographers happened to bemothers.
So it's not like I'm saying allthese mothers were taking
pictures.
It was, first of all, these werephotographers.

(03:14:42):
Who happen to be mothers, whohappen to be looking at a
subject, which is motherhood.
And because there's so manystories and pictures of
motherhood that are unrealistic,whether it's influencers or
culture or commercials, alltelling us false things and
misconceptions about parenthoodand motherhood that make us feel

(03:15:03):
bad or shamed or just don't feeltruthful.
I was like, What's better thantelling your own story?
these are women and motherstelling their own story.
And that's, that's a huge power.
that's the ultimate telling your

own story.
So then why, let me ask, wheredid the decision come to curate
the photos of others rather thansharing your story?

Because I saw the potential.
I think it was bigger than me.
I think it was like the firsttime that I was like, you know,
my kid's five.
I'm quite desperate at home.
I'm kind of, in this look.
But our film was like put onhold a bit.
Our film work was like on slowmotion.
And they just saw this littlegap where I could look out of my
own bubble.

(03:15:46):
out of my own comfort zone andbe like, wow, maybe I could do
something that actually had somemeaning, not just about my own
existence, but for others andother women of my tribe,
parents, women who are artistsand mothers are my tribe in a
way.
this was a perfect storm, right?
Everyone's home, there'spandemic, there's a million

(03:16:07):
photographer women and mothersnow because we're sort of
advanced supposedly in humanityand everyone's like doing self
portraiture and there's thislike beautiful portfolio
appearing.
And by the way, to me, beautifuldoesn't mean perfect or like
happy.
Like I feel you get happy bysharing truthful images, not

(03:16:28):
happy images.
So I was looking for like thelight and dark, the duality in
motherhood, the beauty withinthe details and the hardship.
So no fake, influencer typecontent, which that we had loads
of, right?
Like there's loads of that.
Yeah.
And then, you know, I just, Ijust, I've never had this before
in my life.
And again, this sounds like onthe verge of religious or but I

(03:16:49):
really felt a calling because Ifelt, obliged.
I knew how this could be.
I knew how the work should beand could be.
I saw the potential.
And I thought if I walk awayfrom this, some, It might never
be made.
sometimes when you see stuff,you can't unsee it.
And then it's like, it was mycalling to make it and I knew I
could make it well.
And I just saw it.

(03:17:10):
I had a vision of what this bookwould be, what this platform
would be.
And I, I just knew I could doit.
And so I just started trying tomake it, you know, not really
knowing.
where it would lead.
But sometimes making that onefirst step is the hardest, like
naming a platform, I'm on aproject, owning it, and then
saying to some friends of mine,do you want to feature on this

(03:17:30):
idea I have and I'll tag you?
And they're like, yeah, sure,whatever.
you know, then you've got like10 frames, little frames on the
grid.
And that's like the beginning.
and then in a way the projecttakes its own life, like from
then on, it's not really thatyou control the narrative, you
can push it, you can try andmake it one thing or another,
but it's also got its own life.

(03:17:51):
Because you've put it out there.

Let's talk about that then, because you
knew that you wanted to collectthese images.
so you had started posting themon Instagram with the hopes of
attracting attention, so thatothers would start to do the
same.
But you said that you knew thatthis was going to become a
project, this was going tobecome a book.
So you knew from the beginningthat you were going to have to
start curating photos.
And, when I had just checkedright before our interview,

(03:18:15):
there was more than 65, 000images on Instagram that are
tagged with iMamaProject.
But in your book, there's only228 photos.
So talk to me about hadmentioned there that it's not
necessarily your story to tell,it's the story of others.
But when you're curating thisbook, this series of images, how
do you do that?

(03:18:35):
And do you try to separateyourself from that decision
making process?
Or is that?
The piece of art that you'reputting into the project.

first of all, I think I found a new talent.
You know how we said we're allbeginners, and this goes
together well with your podcast.
But I was a, a newbie curator.
Like I was a beginner as acurator.
So even though I'd done film andphotography for years, And I had
a good eye.
I knew I had a good eye.
Right.
And I had a really good sense ofwhat motherhood was because I am

(03:19:06):
one.
and I have a good sense of whata good photograph is because I'm
a photographer.
And, I knew what was missingfrom the world because I
basically made the book that Iwas missing.
Right.
So I say it's for everyone, butit's also really for me.
Like I am everyone.
Right.
Because, I'm just I'm fillingthe gap of that invisible book
that was meant to be there butisn't there, of what is

(03:19:28):
motherhood today through theeyes of artists and women who
are photographers, looking attheir own motherhood, like
telling their own story.
And when I curated it, I justthink that we should, women and
mothers, And fathers and carershave to support each other, like
women elevating other women.
And I think if you're doingsomething that makes other women

(03:19:48):
feel bad, nevermind the wholething of like turning your life
into an online circus and likeconstantly showcasing kids and
all of, you know, that's a wholeother thing, that I don't really
want to get into, but of courseis an issue.
I just think I don't want to beinvolved in something that makes
other people feel they're less,uh, Good.
You know, at caring because ofit.

(03:20:08):
And I think that, I hope thatthrough this book and this
project, women feel thatmotherhood can be more
normalized to have motherhoodthat's imperfect and fatherhood
that's imperfect, but like fullof love.
You know?
I think we relate better toimperfections because humanness
is imperfect.
I think they just popped out atme from Instagram, to me a good

(03:20:29):
image is.
On one hand, like it needs goodlighting, a good point of view,
like we said, like I need tofeel that person's point of
view, what their world is, solike a peephole into their
world, something intimate,something with maybe nice
lighting, maybe somethingsurprising or shocking.
Definitely not the obvious.

(03:20:50):
So if I've seen it loads before,I don't want to curate it.
What I want to curate is theunseen.
So basically I'm trying tocurate something that's been
unseen up until now and that Isee.
So it's like I have this kind ofspecial vision, x ray vision,
into what visibility ofmotherhood should be, but isn't.

(03:21:10):
And That's what I curated.
So also it's a balance of likelight and dark.
So, light and dark is a big partof photography.
It's really important in how youframe a photograph, shoot it.
and also in the content, Iwanted to make sure I had joy
and hardship, disappointment,spillage, but also like beauty,

(03:21:34):
skin.
Touch, softness, connection, andI didn't want to scare people
away by portraying motherhood asthis kind of insane thing, which
it is on some level.
right.
So, and then on the other hand,it's also this magic thing where
you, you have a being and younurture it and it's hard, but

(03:21:55):
anything good.
is hard.
Anything worthwhile is going tobe hard.
But I think by portrayingmotherhood as like this kind of
fantasy, Madonna images andfantasy, like I'm baking apple
pies and juggling and holdingseven kids while wearing white,
when we're doing an injustice towomen, we're faking it.

(03:22:16):
And when they finally reach it,and to fathers too, and to
anyone who's caring in theparent, We're creating this fake
world where then when you enterparenthood, you feel like you're
doing it badly because, oryou're doing something wrong
because it doesn't look likethat, right?
Because it doesn't look like thefantasy that people have sold
you.
But you know, just like we knowlove stories aren't Hollywood,

(03:22:36):
parenthood isn't Hollywood orinfluencers Pampers commercials
either.
And very soon I realized Iwanted it to be global and
inclusive.
So I knew I can have it withjust women who looked like me
and thought like me.
I wanted it to be women from allaround the world.
I wanted it to be diverse and Iwanted it to have all the
narratives like, adoption andfostering and single mom and,

(03:22:59):
gay couples and miscarriage andabortion and, all the different
narratives.
that lead up to parenting andthat are parenting to be as
inclusive as possible.
and also I wanted to be asinclusive as possible in the
sense that I said to anyone, youcan join if you consider
yourself a mama.
And I used mama as a term ofendearment.
So that any carer who lives withkids could consider themselves a

(03:23:21):
mama.
You don't have to give birthnecessarily.
And anyone who consideredthemselves a photographer.
So again, I didn't ask forcredentials.
I didn't ask for exhibitions orresume because I think we need
to level the playing field.
And I think women have enoughpenalties as it is, and parents
have enough penalties as it is.
And so to help women advance inthis really tricky time of being

(03:23:44):
parents to young kids, Iincluded women who were well
known as well as unknown, whichis like a big curve ball in the
art community, like forcuration.
It's not considered, a thingthat you do, because obviously
if you're into sales, you wantto do well established,
photographers.
but I had nothing to lose.
Like something when you havenothing to lose, you can take

(03:24:04):
bigger risks because I wasn't acurator and I wasn't making any
money.
So, by not exchanging any moneywith these women, not making
any, and not asking for any, Ihad complete creative freedom.
The only thing that was missingwas me earning the trust of
these women.
So obviously when you're dealingwith the most intimate
photography that women can giveout into the world, they like to

(03:24:25):
know that you're a mama too.
They like to know that you're aphotographer too.
They like to see your curation,style.
One of my favorite images is oneby Julie Rene Jones from
America.
And it's an image that was inNational Geographic that
showcased the project.
And it's just a hand reachingout from a crib into a beam of
light.

(03:24:46):
And the crib and the room arequite dark.
And the light is like hand isflexed.
Like a zombie hand or like whena baby falls and their hand is
like, ding, like really straightand stiff and all you can see is
that hand and it's in this beamof light and I love that image.
I just love that image becausenot only did it feel to me like

(03:25:07):
humanity trying to reach for thelight in COVID, trying to
survive.
It's also about that little babythat all our world is in that
little crib in the dark.
And then that.
beam of light just illuminatesthat hand.
and it's just a detail, youknow, it lets you fill in the
rest.
it leaves a lot to theimagination, which I think is,
it's really crucial too.

That's a lot of the fun of art is leaving
something up to the imaginationfor sure.
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm interested at, as aphotographer, know, that a great
photo is more than the sum ofits settings.
We know that the story is likeso important here.
As a photographer, you do haveto know the technical.
side of photography.
So when you were looking atthese images, how much of that

(03:25:49):
played a role in, into theselections that you put into the
book versus just the story, justthe moment.

Well, because I knew I wanted it to be a book
and a platform by photographers,by professional photographers,
I'd seen projects that hadstarted in pandemic that were
for non professionals, people oniPhones, documenting, right?
But that's not what I had inmind because at the end of the
day, I do have a certainaesthetics.

(03:26:16):
The professional photographers.
I like people who shoot onmedium format on DSLRs, I think
the iPhone is really useful whenyou're a mom and you want to
just document your every day.
But I think if you're going tocreate an iconic One specific
image that's really powerful.
You're going to want to use abetter tool saying that the book

(03:26:37):
and the project have iPhoneimages.
So I broke my own rules.
I made them and then I brokethem, but what I tried to do was
get the best images.
I could find that portrayedmotherhood.
as a complex issue.
So, you have to, I call it thehoney, like visual pleasure is
the honey.
You want to draw all theselittle fireflies to the honey

(03:26:59):
and the light first, and thenyou can dish out any old story
you want to dish out.
People will swallow anything ifit's covered in honey, just like
that, paracetamol pill ormedicine that you'll cover in
honey, right?
So I feel that the duality of IMama and the hard, more truthful
tales that are in theresometimes, Still need to be kind

(03:27:20):
of wrapped up in thisphotographic aesthetic language,
right?
Because we're still dealing withan art form, right?
and again, I never asked forcredentials.
I never knew.
I think your eye can often tellwhat is like a casual snapshot
that's meant for the home andfor your own photo book.
And what is something moreiconic that you've managed to

(03:27:42):
capture?
I was fully aware that touchingon childhood and motherhood.
on the internet, which is thewild west and not the perfect
place for any portfolio, youknow, definitely not for women.
we got removed and censored alot.
That's a whole other story byInstagram for showing
breastfeeding images and otherthings.

(03:28:02):
So I was just very aware that Ididn't want to show kids in full
nudity.
I would show skin and I wouldshow suggestions of intimacy,
that was just my motherinstinct, that's the interesting
thing.
I just showed work that I wouldprobably be okay with myself and
respected that.
And, as the trust grew betweenthe photographers who were

(03:28:22):
submitting and myself, as myconfidence grew, there were
friendships that formed.
So the first thousand women whojoined, I probably know them all
personally or the first 500,because we would, chat to each
other on DMs and connect inlockdown and, like this kind of
delicate spider web of eyes andhearts all over the world,
interconnecting and sendingthese images and forming this

(03:28:45):
current undercurrent of thestory of motherhood, and
inspiring each other, you know,and being inspired by each
other's images.
And so in a way, that was an artschool for us.
in a sense,

you

know, getting together like that.

Now, of course, yeah, being able to
share images, talk about thosephotos, and, come up with new
ideas is, I mean, for me, that'swhere I found biggest benefit of
film school.
It wasn't so much learning thetechnical abilities.
I think anybody can do that.
But as you were saying earlier,the collaboration is, is it.
You don't have to go to schoolfor that.
If you have a way of doing thaton your own, you can get a lot

(03:29:23):
of the same same output.
Absolutely.
And this will be my lastquestion here for you, because I
know that we are we'reofficially over our time.
But when you have thesedifferent steps when you have
all of these people who aregiving their opinion.
How do you know that you'vereached the finish line?
How do you know that you'reready?
You put the stamp on it and yousay, send it to print.
We are done.
Because it seems to me like thatprocess could just go on

(03:29:46):
forever.

Yeah.
I mean, that was one of thetoughest bits.
I think, first of all, you havea deadline, right?
So I think, knowing that wewanted the book out at a certain
time, the publication waswaiting because they also don't
forget the publication.
Usually they gave me totalcreative freedom to know if
they're a German publication,but they also have a veto.

(03:30:08):
So they can like look at someimages or try and influence you
one way or another.
If they think it's going to harmthe book or that they don't.
CI to I with you.
I was very lucky that I got toreally make the book I wanted
with the text I wanted.
it's got a few interesting textsin there about motherhood and
about my process and also somequotes that I really wanted in
there.

(03:30:28):
But I think in the end, alsobecause I also had this vision
from the start and it had thisflavor, the Mama Gaye's had this
flavor that I kind of knew, Wasthis flavor of the mama gaze
that was unseen and this bookthat I was looking for in a way
and it's quite hard to describebut it's built up of all these
pieces, all of these things thatI've mentioned before the

(03:30:50):
imperfections the duality darkand light.
I think when I got as close as Icould.
Then at some point I was like,well, I also have to know.
That this is the best I can dofor now.
this is never gonna be a perfectbook.
and it's either you try foreverto get something iconic, but you
might, it might take you fiveyears, and by then, somebody

(03:31:11):
would have made another book, ortwenty books, or you wouldn't
have been able to make it, orwhatever.
Or you make the book that youcan make now, and I was very
intent on making it within theyear.
once I pitched the book projectbecause I, knew it was a
contemporary, urgent topic,with, abortion rights in the
States and paid leave rightsbeing threatened and all these
issues, expensive childcare allover the world and like women's

(03:31:34):
rights and data.
It's like a hot topic and reallyimportant for change, but I feel
like you can't empower theinvisible.
Like first you need visibilityand then you can empower
something.
It was just a version.
In the end I had to like, again,give myself permission to say,
this is the best version of thebook I can get to.
And once I changed my mind amillion times and fought for

(03:31:56):
things I was passionate about,some images I was in love with,
right.
So I'd fight for, and nothingcould change my mind, but some
images I would fight for, andthey'd be like, nah, this is too
much or bloody or whatever.
I'd like, so sometimes like howmuch you're willing to fight for
something is also your parameteror like your assessment on like
how important it is, becausewhen you're tired, you're like,
okay, I'll just fight for that,but I won't fight for that.

(03:32:19):
and you have to do a compromise.
And so, It just like, you know,the graphic designer put
pressure on me in thepublication close it up and I
had to just face the music andbe like, okay, this is it.
And of course, as soon as I shutit, I was like, Oh God, I forgot
that mom.
Oh God, that image could havebeen amazing in there.
And then when I went back to thelong list, I was like, Oh God, I

(03:32:41):
would live.
But of course, once you have thebook done, the other images that
you haven't looked at for a longtime, look fresher, look like
more exciting.
So there's also that weird thingof like the new to you.
So the new to me was new when Istarted the book, but then it
became the old, but to otherpeople, it will be the fresh.
when you make art, you have tobe careful of that as well.

(03:33:01):
That what you've lived with fora long time can seem like not
that interesting anymore.
Like you've seen it, you've seenit.
It doesn't have that exciting.
Oh my God, look at that image.
Because you've gotten used toit, just like with love or,
relationship or whatever youhave to like.
you have to really trustyourself in the process.
And that's some of the hardestthings to do is you have to,

(03:33:21):
that thing of like faking it orlike believing in yourself, even
if you have those doubts andselling it to others, that self
belief in the project inyourself.
I think that's really crucialbecause.
without it, without that fireand that self belief, things are
going to knock you down alongthe way and throw you off
course.
You really have to be likeabsolutely certain in your drive

(03:33:44):
and your mission, but be openenough to accept other people's
opinions or like zigzags alongthe way, but again, I can only
say all of this.
Clever stuff in hindsight,right?
Like when you're on it, whenyou're walking on that path,
often you fall down, you get up,whatever you can't, you don't
see the full, the astronautperspective when you're in it,

(03:34:07):
it's only when you zoom out.
That you can like tell what it'sbeen and learn from it, and I'm
really grateful for that, forthe like insane learning
experience and like all thesefriendships and all this work
that I've had the privilege of,curating and, cause it's really
a collective body of work, thisis a collective vision by women
around the world, which is kindof a first of its kind,

(03:34:29):
definitely in scope.
so that's a big satisfactionknowing that and having that.

Of course, as a photographer, it can be hard.
We feel like this thing thatwe're shooting ourselves is us.
And whenever there's any sort ofcriticism on an image, we feel
like it's.
so oftentimes we try not tocollaborate with others.
but by hearing your story heretoday, that is something that,
that I've definitely taken away.
And then I want to, do more of,because clearly your energy and

(03:34:59):
this passion that you put in isyou're able to magnify that when
you collaborate with others.
So I really appreciate yousharing everything that you have
here today, but I know thatlisteners are thinking to
themselves.
I want to see some of theseimages.
I want to know more about thisproject.
So before I let you go, can youshare where listeners can find
out more about this projectonline?

Absolutely.
I mean, if you Google iMamaproject and iMama book, that's
the obvious go to, but there iswww.
imamaproject.
com and there's links in that.
It's a very simple website, butit's got all the links to the
articles.
it's been featured in NationalGeographic, Vogue, Wall Street
Journal, Creative Review.
a lot of articles over the time.

(03:35:38):
And, also the Instagram, ofcourse, which is, imamaproject.
com.
all one word and the book is onAmazon and all the online usual
places, that you have, it'sdistribution is worldwide.
But again, I would love peopleto, look at the book.
I've always asked for thebookshops to keep one of the
copies open so people can lookthrough.

(03:36:01):
get the books for people youlove and also get them for
people who you think need to seethe story of motherhood, like
sometimes that's really crucial.
I wish we could give it to everybusiness and every birth suite
at every school, maybe in thefuture.
because I'd love to do moreexhibitions as well and an
archive of motherhood, likethere's still more things we
could do with it lookingforward.

(03:36:22):
There's, a lot you can get tothrough the images that are
shared on the Instagram, if youfollow the trail to these women
who are photographers.
It's kind of this endless rabbithole, but a good rabbit hole,
you know, I have likeinteresting, photography by
women today.
so that's really, really nice.

What an inspiring journey through the
mindset that helps shape thesegreat photographers.
I really hope that this episodehas left you feeling not only
motivated, but empowered to takecharge of your creative process.
Whether it's Alison Conklin'semphasis on capturing real
moments, Jeff Laurison's adviceon creating systems for self

(03:37:01):
analysis, or Brooke Shaden'spush for experimentation over
perfection, you now have a rangeof strategies to build a
stronger mindset in yourphotography.
Remember, it's not just allabout the technical side, it's
about cultivating the confidenceto tell your story, the
resilience to push through thosechallenges and the openness to

(03:37:23):
continuously learn and grow.
Photography is a personaljourney.
I've said that before, yourmindset is what is going to keep
you moving forward, even whenthings get tough.
So take these lessons thatyou've learned today, take them
with you to your next shoot andkeep working on developing that,
you know, the mental tools thatwill help you to thrive as a
photographer.
That is it for today.

(03:37:44):
So remember until next time, themore that you shoot today, the
better of a photographer youwill be tomorrow.
Talk soon.

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