Navigating Price Increases in Your Photography Biz with Annemie Tonken

Episode Transcript
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Annemie Tonken (00:00):
I knew that if I wanted to quit nursing, that I
was going to have to figure outa way to make money.
So in the beginning, yes, ofcourse, it was like somebody
would say, Hey, would you comeover and take pictures of my
kids?
And I'd be like, great.
And then I did start to do the,like 50 bucks or 150 bucks, and
I would burn a CD for somebody.
Immediately after I signed upfor a business class as part of

(00:21):
that business class.
They had us do like a big deepdive on our cost of doing
business and our numbers and allthis other stuff.
So I flipped from 150 rates to,very quickly, very early in my
career.
I was charging, over 2, 000.
I don't know where I got thecojones to do that, and I was
like, well, if it doesn't work,and if I can't get anybody to

(00:44):
pay me, then I guess now I knowin black and white, this is not
a viable career path.

Raymond Interview (00:51):
Hey, welcome to the Beginner Photography
Podcast.
I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield,and each week I interview one of
the world's most interestingphotographers to learn what it
really takes to capturebeautiful images so that you can
start to do the same.
In today's Rewind episode, weare chatting with family
photographer Annemie Tonkinabout creating a unique pricing
structure that your clients willlove and gives you back more

(01:12):
time.
But first, the beginnerphotography podcast is brought
to you by Cloudspot.
Sell your photos through prints,products, and of course,
digitals.
You can set up a storefront inminutes and start earning more
with every single gallery thatyou send.
So grab your free foreveraccount over at deliverphotos.
com and only upgrade when youare ready.

(01:33):
Pricing can be difficult, youknow?
There's been two kind of mainstrategies for a long time.
One, high volume, low touch.
So think like school photos.
Or low volume, high touch.
Think, you know, in personsales.
What if you don't want either ofthose?
Well, today's guest Annemieshares her journey of setting
the right pricing structure forher and her clients, creating a

(01:54):
luxury client experience.
And she also shares how tonavigate the challenges of in
person versus online sales.
Annemie is also the host of theThis Can't Be That Hard podcast,
focusing on making businesseasier for photographers.
So if you're into that, be sureto check it out.
Today, your business is going tochange by recalibrating your

(02:16):
pricing model, refining yoursales approach, and embracing
consistency in your businessstrategy.
So with that, let's go ahead andget on into today's interview.
So my first question for you issuper simple.
When did you know thatphotography was going to play an
important role in your life?

I would say my that moment for me was actually
I followed the same path as alot of people, a lot of women
specifically when it comes tofamily photographers, which is
that photography was always ahobby for me.
I enjoyed it.
It was great, whatever.
But when my older son was born,I was living in New York City

(02:53):
and had invested, I didn't havemuch space for all the baby
stuff.
I didn't have a dedicatednursery.
So I asked for money toward acamera or a stroller or books.
That was all I wantedgrandparents and stuff to give
us.
And so I had saved up and I hadgotten a Nikon D70.
And I was photographing onprogram mode.

(03:15):
Like there was nothing fancyabout what I was doing.
But in the first few days thatOliver, was at home, I happened
to take a picture of him thatliterally took my breath away.
And I can't say that at thatmoment, I knew it was ever going
to be a career path.
But from that moment forward, itwas well beyond a hobby.
It was sort of an obsession.

(03:36):
And that from there grew anentire career.

Raymond Hatfield (03:40):
When you think back to that photo, now with
being a professional for manyyears, what do you think it was
about that photo that took yourbreath away?

So I inadvertently rim lit him.
There was sort of a window kindof off to the side behind and I
just kind of got lucky withwhere he was in the light and it
perfectly highlighted thatlittle peach fuzz on him and he
looked so peaceful.
I still look at that photo and,I wouldn't take it all that much
differently now.
I would probably change myaperture and things like that.

(04:09):
But, it was a solid portraitmode kind of a photo.

Right.
I love that.
I love those little happyaccidents, I guess.
Yeah.
So we live in this world, Ithink, today where so many
people are totally cool withjust taking snapshots,
essentially, on their iPhones.
You bought the, you said theD7000, right?
Or 7000?

The D70.

D70, sorry.
So you bought the D70.
You put it in program mode, youcould essentially go on forever
just taking those snapshots inprogram mode.
What made you decide, you knowwhat, I'm actually going to
pursue this a little further andlearn more about what this
camera can do and wherephotography can go?

Well, I will say that Oliver is now 16 years old.
So there was no camera on myphone or if it was, on my flip
phone that photo did not doanybody any justice.
So, I had some motivation fromthat.
It wasn't as though I couldsubstitute images from my phone.
And in retrospect, I'm a littlesad that I didn't have what

(05:10):
people now have when my kidswere little because I don't have
tons of little, snapshots in themoment.
And, video obviously was like awhole different thing at the
time.
But, at this point, the thingthat kept me motivated was that
you know, how did I take thispicture?
What just happened here thatmade this photo look so
different from all the otherimages that I'm making, even

(05:31):
with this camera, and even givenall the same technology.
So even though that was a longtime ago, there was still the
internet.
So I was doing all of thisresearch.
I bought some books.
But education for photographyhas come a long, long way in the
last 16 years.
And so I was struggling at thetime trying to just figure out

(05:52):
like, what do I even searchhere?
Like, how do I make thebackground blurry?
How do I, you know, what makes aphoto look good?
Like it was, I was having a veryhard time sussing out what I
didn't know.
You don't know what you don'tknow.
And it was just kind of thatdogged pursuit that over time
got me to where.
I knew what I was doing.
I ended up taking like a classat a local college just to sort

(06:14):
of get my bearings on what thedifferent modes and things were,
but I always approached thecamera as the tool.
I never really, got super intothe tech side.
Now, I certainly know my camerainside and out.
I know what all the features do,all the different things.
But to me, it was always a meansto an end.
I wanted to use that tool tomake the image that I saw in my

(06:38):
head.

Where was that struggle?
Right?
You got the books.
You didn't even know what tosearch for.
Like, I understand that.
But when you finally got thebook and started, or whatever
resources it was, when youfinally started putting your
hands on that camera, was thereanything from the camera side, I
guess, that you were reallystruggling with to grasp?

Oh, this is a long time ago.
You're asking me to, to digdeep.
I think that it went relativelysmoothly, there was no pressure
on photography for me at thebeginning, right?
And it was this, I was socreatively engaged in what I was

(07:16):
getting out of there and I wasjust constantly marveling.
It was like it opened up thiswhole new world to me in terms
of the beauty of different kindsof light and those qualities.
And I feel like asphotographers, it's almost like
you have spidey senses aboutthose kinds of things.
And you walk into a room andyou're like, Oh, and things that

(07:38):
other people are just like, Idon't even know what you're
talking about.
That's like a dusty book in thecorner.
So I found at the time that itjust like opened up this new
world of beauty to me.
And of course, smack in themiddle of that, beauty was my
son who I was, completelyfalling in love with.
So I think, I don't know, in thebeginning, it didn't really feel
very much like a struggle.

(07:59):
I was just so excited by it allthe time.
Yeah.
And then, struggles came not somuch for me from the technical
side of things, althoughcertainly there have been
hurdles.
I mean, when I, started movinginto doing, artificial lighting
and things like that, that felta little bit more, confusing.
Oh, I do remember feeling very,stymied for a while about just

(08:20):
the exposure triangle.
I was reading about it, learningabout it and was like, what?
This seems so counterintuitive.
And then when it finally clickedfor me, it was like this great
aha moment.
So yeah, there have been thosehurdles over time, but more than
anything, once I got intophotography as a career, it was
cracking the business side ofit.
That was always harder for me.

Yeah.
And I'm excited to get into thebusiness side because, that's
one of the big reasons whyyou're here today.
It's that you're doing somethingreally interesting, but before
we get into that, I had to ask.
Did you do like me and actuallysearch for some sort of like
exposure triangle button on yourcamera?
Like after reading about it somuch online, I was like, but
where's the button?
I don't understand where thisis.
You didn't do that

as a multi million dollar idea.
I think that there should be abutton.

It says exposure triangle.
That's funny.
Easy exposure triangle button.
Right, right.
I love that.
Well, I'm gonna look into that.
See if I can get a part of that,uh, multi million dollars.
There you go.
Let me stay on the early days ofphotography for just one more
question here.
Yeah.
And when you were talking aboutthose early days and how
exciting it can be and walkinginto a room and seeing that
dusty book and be like, Oh, Iknow that that's a good photo.

(09:23):
I know that oftentimes, asphotographers, get more
experience when we look back atthose early photos, it can still
be like, Whoa, like that's not,Who I am today.
That's not, what I photographedtoday.
These look like amateur photoswhen you look back at your
photos.
Do you feel that same way?
And if so, what elements nowwith your experience and

(09:43):
knowledge, would you say, makethat an amateur photo?
I feel like that was a reallylong winded question.
I apologize.
Hopefully

I totally know.
I totally get it.
I look back at my early daysphotos.
Now I will say editing has comea long, long, long, long, long
way.
My early edits when I first gotfirst into Photoshop, and then
later, I guess by the time I gotinto Lightroom, I had toned my
editing down.
But there were a lot of verysilly actions that were floating

(10:12):
around the interwebs back in thelate, I don't know, what is
that, aughts, like 2009, 2010.
So my edits weren't great, but Ifeel like and I say this all the
time to my own students, I thinkthat what you gain over time
with experience and you probablybecome more consistent and you

(10:33):
can kind of rely on yourselfmore to show up in any situation
and make the photos that youneed to make.
But in the beginning, thatpassion and that drive and that
excitement really comes through.
And I feel like I was tryingmore stuff and risking and
failing because, sometimesthat's what happens, but I was

(10:56):
taking just swing after swingafter swing and like knocked
some out, some of them out ofthe park.
I mean, those photos, I might goback and reedit them, but there
are a handful of photos fromthose early years that I don't
know that I would have matchedthem.
Yeah, I wouldn't change them.
I mean, my equipment has comealong.
Certainly again, I have becomemore consistent.
I feel that, but I sometimeswish that I could go back and

(11:20):
get a bit of that new energythat you have when you're first
starting out because it is, it'slike falling in love.
There you go.
It is very much like thebeginning of a relationship
where you are just infatuatedand you, all of your energy and
all of that emotion goes intoit.
And it shows.
And then over time, if you canmake a long term career out of

(11:41):
it, that is a thing of beauty inand of itself, but it is
different.
It evolves.

Yeah.
Just like love, though.
Yeah.
Just like love.
So then tell me, how did you getinto photographing
professionally?
You shoot, say, families.
So how did that transitionhappen?

So I was, 30 when my second son was born and
I was in the middle of amaster's program to go into
midwifery.
So I was a nurse and I was inthis master's program and
nursing was actually a secondcareer for me with the direct
focus on like, I'm going to gointo women's health.
But by the time that I gotthere, I had been in nursing for

(12:16):
five or six years and I wasstarting to doubt that decision
and feel like, Oh, this mightnot be the right career path for
but, and now at 43, I thinklike, Oh, Silly me, 30 is so
young.
Like you have all the time inthe world to change careers and
do all this.
But at the time I felt like, uh,I'm just going to flake out on

(12:37):
this career.
And, I didn't really know whatto do.
I was on maternity leave fromboth work and from my master's
program.
And I was, sitting at home witha second new baby and having
like an existential careercrisis.
And, my husband at the time waslike, well, You know, you don't
have to go back to schoolnecessarily.
You take really good pictures.

(12:58):
You could do that.
I mean, I nearly laughed him outof the room.
I was like, that's not a job.
I love that too much for that tobe my work.
But that idea took root.
And so I took a leave of absencefrom the master's program, which
never came back.
And I did go back to work and Ikept working as a nurse for a
couple of years, but I startedtaking some classes.

(13:19):
I took a business class.
I took another photographyclass.
And I started really consideringwhat it would mean to start a
business.
And I had no roadmap for that.
Like my parents were bothmedical.
I didn't really have anybusiness mentors in my life.
My undergraduate degree was veryliberal arts.
Like it wasn't, there wasnothing businessy about me.
And so, I was just kind offeeling my way forward, but over

(13:42):
the course of a year and a halfor so, I was able to get to
where I felt like I couldprobably safely replace my
income.
And so I, quit my nursing joband the rest is history.

I know that, many new photographers, when
they think about making moneywith their camera, their first
thought is like, oh, I'll getinto wedding photography.
You can make such a large amountof money.
What was it about families thatdrew you into that?

Well, to be fair, I started out in both
families and weddings.
I was drawn to families becausea lot of the early work that I
got was, you know, I had littlekids at the time.
I had lots of friends withlittle kids.
I worked as a labor and deliverynurse.
So there were, this endlesssupply of people who I connected
with there and was like, by theway, if you're interested, I

(14:26):
also.
But wait, there's more.
I, I take photos.
And so I was doing a lot of thatwork, but I also felt like many
people do that, you know,weddings are a big moneymaker.
And so I got into photographingsome weddings.
I also was working with somepeople who were in that phase of
life.
I was at a big teachinghospital.
So I had both residents likedoctor residents and nurses who

(14:50):
were getting married.
So I did get some early work inthose both of those genres and I
continued to do both for aboutfive, six years.
And then my business had gottento a point where I felt like I
was busy enough that I kind ofneeded to choose one direction
or another.
And that for me, it was a nobrainer.
I was, hour for hour.

(15:10):
I have always made as much moneyas a family photographer as I
was as a wedding photographer.
And yes, you can make a bigchunk of money.
As a wedding photographer, butit's always Saturdays and it's
always, like in the peakbeautiful season.
And my kids were at that agewhere I was like, yep, not
interested.
And so, I went all in onfamilies.

When you first started out shooting families,
were you doing like thetraditional 30 minutes for a
hundred dollars or how did thepricing structure work for you
then?

So I was dead set on if I'm going to do this
as a career, and I was very muchlike we were kind of equal
partners in the income game atthat point.
My again, now ex husband and I,so I, knew that if I wanted to
quit nursing.
Which was the goal that I wasgoing to have to figure out a
way to make money.
So in the beginning, yes, ofcourse, it was like somebody

(16:00):
would say, Hey, would you comeover and take pictures of my
kids?
And I'd be like, great.
Can I pay you?
I just love doing this.
I certainly did lots of freework.
And then I did start to do thelike 50 bucks or 150 bucks and I
would burn a CD for somebody.
Cause that was when that was.
And then, pretty soon into it, Iwas like, okay, actually.

(16:21):
In that class that I took, whenI didn't go back for my
master's, that second semester,or the spring semester of that
year, I took a class, anotherclass in photography, and the
guy who taught that class athome.
And he took me aside at the endof the semester and he was like,
look, you really have a greateye and I had mentioned to him,
you know, I'm considering thisas a career switch.

(16:43):
He was like, you have a greateye.
I don't doubt that you can makethis work as a career.
But if you and he was sort of a,he was older than I was at the
time, but he still was like inhis 40s and he had tried to make
photography a career and endedup teaching.
But he was also, he also hadlike a day job.
And he was like, if you want toget into this, you need to take
the business side as seriouslyas you take the photography

(17:06):
side.
He was like, I know this is morefun, but this is a, it's a hard
industry.
And if you set yourself up rightfrom the beginning, you'll do
better.
So immediately after that class,I signed up for a business
class.
And as part of that businessclass, they had us do like a
big, deep dive on our cost ofdoing business and our numbers
and all this other stuff.
So I flipped from 150 rates to,uh, very quickly, very early in

(17:33):
my career, I was charging, over$2,000, which was very high
locally, and it was like, Idon't know where I got the
cajones to do that, except thatI had this other job.
And I was like, well, if itdoesn't work.
And if I can't get anybody topay me, then I guess now I know
in black and white, this is nota viable career So, I was out

(17:56):
there, like here it is, this iswhat it costs.
And I was always shocked andamazed when people would hire me
and, you know, it was adifferent time in the industry
and everything else.
So it was a little bit of thewild west, but I did get some
clients at that confidence.
And I always say this to peoplewhen it comes to pricing it is
such a head game.
And I'm not here to say that,everybody should raise their

(18:18):
prices or anybody can charge 5,000 and, feel good about that.
I do think that there's, it's avery nuanced, complicated,
conversation.
But, photography exists at alllevels of, you know, there's,
somebody out there to pay 50 andthere's somebody out there to
pay 5, 000.
And so it really is importantto, to run your number.
So I'm glad I did.

(18:38):
What's funny is that now Icharge less than I charged at
that point, not a whole lotless, but I started out really
high and then sort of found myhappy place in terms of like the
right clients for me.
And what I feel good about.
and so that's been an evolution.
But

I know that a lot of listeners right now are
going to think to themselves,there's no way that I could
charge 2, 000, to photograph afamily.
But I think that they're missingwhat you had said there of like,
I already have another job.
So if they don't take it, I'mnot like, let's at least try
this and see if that works.
And that's something thatunfortunately, I think it's lost

(19:16):
on so many people, you know,taking that chance.
So, you said that your priceshave actually gone down pretty
much since then.
Tell me about that evolutionbecause this is one of the
reasons why I reached out to youtoday, because you're doing
something a little bit differentwhen it comes to pricing.
So I guess before we get intowhat it is that you're doing
now, can you kind of share withus what the traditional two
model system has been up untilthis point?

Sure.
So, when I started and I wentinto business in 2010, and I was
trying to learn all I couldabout like how to run a
successful photography business.
At that time, almost everyone inthe industry who was doing
really well was saying you needto do in person sales in order
to make enough money for this tobe a long term career.

(19:58):
So I very, very early on, I setthose like 2000 plus dollar
prices.
And I backed that up with inperson sales.
And I took classes on how to doin person sales because that was
not in any way, something thatI, felt was natural to me.
But I was like, well, this ishow I get to do this thing that

(20:19):
I love so much for the longhaul.
And so I learned how to do itand I got reasonably good at it.
I always approached it from likea, this is not, I'm not
pressuring you.
We just have to have aconversation and I want to help
you find what you want to find.
And I built my career on tellingpeople and showing people that,
it's like a luxury item and it'sa high touch kind of a thing and

(20:41):
you come in for a pre sessionconsultation and then we'll meet
again afterward.
And I enjoyed it because it gaveme lots.
I am.
I do enjoy my clients a lot andI like to get to know them and
help them put beautiful art ontheir walls.
I mean, what I have always foundin the course of my career is
that when someone has somethingtangible at the end of their
session with me.

(21:02):
The satisfaction factor is somuch higher because they have,
something that they're able tolook at and see every day to
remind them of this experienceand everything else.
So it really seems to stick intheir heads more.
So I, I enjoyed that.
And I learned a ton sitting inon these, like it's being a fly
on the wall to get inside yourclient's heads, right?

(21:23):
What is it that they love?
What do they not love?
What makes them decide toactually And again, my very
early on prices were very high,but then I started to realize
like, uh, when I have my pricesset this high.
Like, it's not the right fit andas much as I was like, you tell

(21:47):
me how to set up this luxuryexperience and I'll do it, and I
could do it.
I'm also not like a luxuryperson, it's not really who I am
as a person.
So I always felt a little bitweird about that and I would
always kind of downplay I'd belike, Oh, we're just, you know,
it's like we're having wine asfriends and we'll just talk
about what we're going to hangon your wall.
So it was a good system and thenI was making good money and I

(22:10):
was able to leave my career, andthat was all good.
But what ended up happeningseveral years into that, was
that I got divorced.
And when that happened, I waslike seven years into my career
and I was faced with all of asudden needing to support an
entire household on just myincome and whereas the money

(22:34):
that I had been making for allthese years was good for the
half part of the incomeequation.
it was impossible, or I washaving a hard time figuring out
how I could scale it becausein-person sales for all of its
many benefits is very timeconsuming.
Again, not only was I meetingwith people to photograph their

(22:56):
family, I was meeting with thembeforehand.
I was meeting with themafterward.
I was always like, oh, you cancontact me anytime after we met,
and there was usually a wholebunch of back and forth about
like, oh, we have to change ourappointment now, this, that, and
the other.
And then after we met, I wouldhave to log into Rose and place
their order.
And then the order would comeand I'd package it up and then

(23:16):
I'd have to drop it off and allthe whole many steps.
I actually, sat down and triedto calculate how much time I was
taking with each client afterthe editing was done.
So like you think about the timethat you put into each job and,
it kind of ends with here's theimages, but there was another
like six to eight hours perclient just in that sales phase.

(23:38):
And so when I looked at, youknow, there's only 24 hours in a
day.
Whatever that equals out to in aweek.
And in order to take on thenumber of clients that I needed
to take on to fill that wagegap, I didn't, I just literally
ran out of time.
And of course, at that point, Iwas also going to have to pay
for a babysitter.
And I was going to take moretime away from my kids, which

(23:58):
was now limited.
Like there were so many hurdles,but it was like.
Ah, I don't know what to do.
So the option, and sorry, youwere joking about asking a long
question.
I can talk for years about thisstuff.
I love it.
Um, The alternative and the onlyalternative that was kind of out
there at the time was to go allinclusive.

(24:20):
So when I first started, thatwas called shoot and burn.
And it was like photograph andyou put them on a CD and walk
away.
And then we made up a nicername, which is all inclusive.
And now we don't put things onCDs anymore.
But, the idea is the same.
Basically, it is the least timecommitment for the photographer.
It's also the least timecommitment for the people out

(24:40):
there, your clients, which formany people, that's important,
like we're all busy people.
And so I totally got, especiallyat that point, I really got the
attraction the going allinclusive.
And so at that time, my salesaverage was around$1800$2000 And
I was like, okay, I can't charge$1800 upfront and expect people

(25:04):
to book me.
Like that's way out of theballpark for everybody in my
area.
But maybe if I charge$1400that's so much less than I
currently charge.
Or than I currently make withper session.
I'll lower it to that, but I'lltake on more clients and that's
how I'll make the math work.
And I did like a one monthexperiment or a two month

(25:26):
experiment, which by the way,it's not, it's not enough time.
Like you do have to let pricechanges have to marinate for a
little bit, but I figured goingcheaper was going to make mean
that like the floodgates haveopened, you know, all these
people are going to be coming tome and what I found was not only
did I not get this giant influxof new clients, my existing

(25:50):
clients, many of whom I hadworked with for years, were
being a lot more resistant to mynew prices.
They would say, because beforethey had been paying, even
though over the course of thewhole interaction, it would be
like 000.
When they booked me at thatpoint, I think it was 250.
It was just a session fee.
And there was no big commitmentfor later.

(26:11):
So a couple of months in, andI'm getting pushback from all
these clients who've worked withme.
A bunch of times being like, Ohgosh, that's a lot.
Well, okay.
Let me talk to my husband andI'll call you back.
And then like crickets.
So I'm panicking.
I'm like trying to figure outwhat it's going to take to get
my nursing license renewed and,and the whole time.
So frustrated by this doesn'tmake sense.

(26:33):
Everyone in my local marketwould point to me as like, Oh,
she's so successful.
She's doing so well.
And here I'm going to have toquit this thing that I love
because I can't make it work.
So out of like pure desperation,they say necessity is the mother
of intention.
Well, one day I was looking atmy gallery software, which I

(26:53):
subscribed to, like I paid forit, but I didn't really use it
because people were coming in todo the whole sales thing and
that was when they would buy.
So I just used my gallerysoftware as a way for them to
then be able to like shareimages with grandparents and
like every once in a while aprint order would come through.
But generally speaking nothingever came through and I was
frustrated because at that pointthe software options for gallery

(27:16):
software had come a long way andI had this really beautiful
online gallery with thisgorgeous online store.
And I was like, nobody ever evensees this thing.
Like I I'm paying for thissoftware and I don't, it's not
used.
And something like clicked in mybrain.
And I was like, you know, Iwonder if I could make an in

(27:37):
person sales experience happenusing my online gallery
software.
To make a long story short, Iover the course of a couple of
weeks kind of hammered out thisrough plan.
I tried to decide or I tried toreally distill after seven years
of in person sales, like I knowwhat it is that makes people buy

(27:58):
what they buy.
Sure.
How can I make those thingshappen in a way that I don't
have to show up and do it inperson.
And it was like a full on HailMary pass where I was just like,
well, we're going to see if thisworks.
And if it doesn't, we'll figureout the next step.
I mean, my whole life was beingreinvented at this point.

So let's just go for it.

So let's just go for it.
And, I put this thing togetherand it was a little rough around
the edges, but I launched it andI, essentially reached out to
all my clients and I was like,Hey, remember how I told you all
the time that the most valuablepart about working with me was
meeting in person?
Well,

forget about all that.

I have a new plan where I'm going to help you
through this process, and Iframed it as a benefit for them.
I was like, I know how busy youare and I've gotten a bunch of
pushback about like, it's reallyhard to schedule all these
meetings.
So I have, created this processfor you that gives you all the
attention and the need or likethe, customization that you

(28:57):
want, but you can do it on yourown time from the comfort of
your own home.
And I had no idea how it wasgoing to go.
And that was like May of 2017.
And, from May until December ofthat year, so in seven months or
whatever that is, I made moremoney by 30 percent than I had
made any year prior in workingfull time for the full year.

(29:22):
And at that point I was like,well, This is a thing, this is
working really well.
And that's the way that I haverun my business ever since.
And it's been super successful.

First of all, thank you for sharing that.
It is quite a journey to figureout exactly, what it is that you
want to do in business.
And when you do find that thing,it feels real good.
One of the things that I hearsometimes from, other listeners
or clients is that like when youtry to set up some sort of sales
system online, there's almost nourgency, I guess, for customers
to buy and therefore their salestypically go down than if you

(29:54):
were in person, you're kind ofright here right now.
Let's go ahead and choosesomething that you like.
Why do you think your sales wentup?
And, would you say that most ofyour clients, continued to
purchase?
Was there any pushback as far astiming goes or, them taking
their time in, in ordering theirproduct?

That's a great question.
And it's exactly what kept mefor a long time from kind of
going y'all in on that gallerysoftware was that what I had
learned both from the people whoeducated me about in person
sales and just throughexperience over the years was
that like, If you don't forcesomebody to make a decision and
force sounds like some like I'mnot sure.

(30:34):
There's no, there's no likescare tactics happening, but
people do need a deadline.
They need some amount of urgencyand in person sales has that all
baked in, right?
Most in person sales, strategiesfocus on creating this, like
there's an appointment and theexpectation is that at some
point during the appointment orby the end of the appointment,

(30:55):
you will have placed your orderfor your images.
So that's a deadline of somesort, right?
In thinking about like, okay, sohow can I reverse engineer the
lessons that I had learned.
Urgency or a deadline was one ofthem.
And I would expand that to say,it's not just a time limit.
You really have to give peopleall kinds of limits.
And I think that asentrepreneurs as, oftentimes

(31:18):
very sort of thoughtful,empathetic artist types.
We have a hard time seeinglimits, giving someone limits as
a benefit.
We feel like the more options wegive someone, the more time we
give them, the better it is forthem.
Ultimately.
I would argue, both throughexperience and then I've
actually read a bunch of data onthis, is that people need those

(31:41):
limits in order to move forwardwith a decision.
There's this super cool study,that was done by a guy actually
down the street from me, thathas gotten a lot of
international attention, but,having to do with the decision
making process and how, the moreimage or the more options that
we have, the more we feel like.

(32:02):
Or we always think that that'swhat we want.
And then when we get into it, wecan't make a decision if there
are too many options.
And I always use Netflix as theexample.
Like you sit down to watch TVand you scroll for 45 minutes
and then you go to bed becauseyou're like, I can't pick But if
you have last

night, yes,

I know it happens all the time.
It still happens.
And every time it happens, I'mlike, yep, there's that example
again.
But if you sit down to Netflixand your friend yesterday told
you like, Oh man, I saw thesethree great movies last week.
It's this one, this one, andthis one, then I have three
options.
Same thing.
I, for a long time was thevegetarian and I always was

(32:38):
like, it's, this is the bestthing going.
When I go to a restaurant, ittakes me like five minutes to
decide, whereas everybody elseis pouring over the menu.
And it's because I only havethree options or two options or
whatever.
It does help us focus ourdecision making energy.
And so that was one of thethings that I had to figure out
how to build into this system.

(33:01):
And so I have, and part one ofthe kind of the crux of the
simple sales system is that youare taking your clients on a
journey.
That journey has very specificmile posts and it also has very
specific time limits.
So, that expectation is set upfront.
They're not being, blindsided byit.
It's like, you're going to getthis and then this is going to

(33:21):
happen.
And then this is going tohappen.
I definitely am a big believerin education is step one all the
time.
A well prepared client is ahappy client.

So let me see if I got the 30, 000 foot
overview here.
The shoot is a relatively lowfee.
And then afterwards, when yousend them their online gallery,
it is tailored through differentpackages that they can choose
for which products they wouldlike.
And then it's a simple, youeither pick this one, this one,
or this one, and then that's it,and then afterwards you purchase

(33:54):
those and then you're a happyclient.

Kind of.
So, you definitely have the,beginnings of it.
So I do feel like that lowbarrier to entry of a session
fee is a really great way tobring a client in, give them
some confidence that they'renot, handing you 1, 500 and
hoping for the best.
They're bought in like they dohave some skin in the game, but
it's not so much that they are,going in scared.

(34:18):
And then from that pointforward, I like to automate not
only the sales process on the,backend after the session, but
really from the beginning, Ihave a whole series.
I mean, now technology is ourfriend, like We have the ability
to not only write up, for a longtime, it was like, here's your
prep guide that I wrote out.

(34:39):
That's all this written contentthat I expect you to like,
here's a novel.
Um, now we can make little loomvideos or we can make, videos
with our phone and be like, Hey,it's Annemie.
I'm super excited to, work withyou next week.
I just wanted to run throughthree pointers before we get
there to remind you of and it'sthat is not only, valuable to
them from the perspective ofthey are getting prepared for

(35:01):
their session, but they're alsogetting to interface with you
kind of the way that I used todo like a pre session
consultation.
It's not necessarily a back andforth conversation, but they're
seeing my face, they're hearingmy voice, they're getting used
to the way that I operate.
Even before we've met, then wehave the session, which is
great, hopefully.

(35:23):
And then you do your editing andyou get all ready.
And then, the beauty of thissystem that I have put together
really does fully kick in onceyou are delivering your gallery,
because once upon a time, if youwanted to do online gallery
sales.
You would put your gallery upand you would kind of, you know,
there would be prices in thestore and maybe you'd have a
menu of you can buy one digitalfile for this or five for this

(35:46):
or all of them for this.
This, system that I have createdbasically gives them a short
period of time where they cansee preview all of their images,
and then that period of timecloses, and they have to make a
decision.
And until they make a purchasingdecision, they don't get to see
their images.
And then the purchasingdecision, this was the other

(36:06):
thing that was tricky becausewith in person sales, one of are
taking them on kind of a customjourney from the moment that
they see their images to thepoint that they have placed
their order, but you are thereas an expert to guide them
through that.
If they see their images andthen they're like, okay, great.
We have a such and such budgetand we need to get gifts for

(36:28):
grandma and we want to havesomething big on our wall.
You can kind of help themnavigate that decision making
process.
And honestly, sometimes that isjust what people need.
They doubt themselves, you know,they're not necessarily photo
experts.
And it's a big purchase.
So sometimes it's just thatvalidation of like, Oh yes, this
is going to look great on yourwall.

(36:49):
Or like, you're talking aboutframing an 8x10.
Let me show you what an 8x10 isgoing to look like on your wall.
It's going to be really small.
Are you sure you don't want a16x20?
That sort of thing.
So in person, you can give allthat guidance.
If you give somebody an onlinegallery with a hundred products
in it, And they are expected tonavigate that decision maze.
They are either not going to,they're going to get the Netflix

(37:11):
problem and just kind of shutdown and be like, we love the
photos, but I think they won'teven, they'll like end up
ghosting you after you followedup a hundred times.
But you kind of need them tomake that decision while like
the impact is fresh and theexcitement is there.
And so you don't want to givethem too many decisions.
So I created what I callFlexible collections and each

(37:33):
one there's three options.
So it's just pick between one ofyou know, among one of these
three and they're all the same.
They're just staggered in termsof size.
So it's a certain number ofdigital files and a certain
amount of print credit and printcredit is amazing because it's
like here's the gift certificateyou're buying yourself that you
can use in the online store.
Everybody gets some digitalfiles and everybody gets this

(37:55):
credit.
And the great thing aboutcredit, even at the smallest
collection, is that that meansthat they will go into the
store.
They will be thinking aboutlike, where do I want to put
this on my wall?
What gifts do I want to get?
And some people purchase andkeep it within their gift
certificate limit.
And then other people are inthere and it's convenient.
They're shopping.

(38:15):
The store is beautiful.
This is where that likebeautiful online gallery
experience really like levels itup.
I used to have, album samplesout and, there's something to
that tactile experience.
Nowadays, not only is there thisbeautiful gallery that has like
their images pre populated intothe frame or whatever, so that

(38:35):
they can kind of preview whatthat's going to look like, but
all along the way, I am sendingthem little videos like, Hey, I
just wanted to, you know, asyou're waiting for your images,
I wanted to showcase a couple ofmy favorite products that you're
going to see, and you're goingto have this gift certificate
for yourself that you can spend.
And so like, let me show youthis acrylic that I love or,

(38:55):
whatever the case may be.
And so I am doing my hybrid sortof in person sales thing where I
can do it once, record it, andthen send it out to all 50
clients or 60 clients from thatyear or whatever the case may
be.
It is a more scalable use of mytime that still gives the same

(39:15):
guidance and sort ofcustomization to the clients.
So to get back to the process,once they choose their
collection, their gallery opens,and then they have 30 days to
fulfill that collection.
They can pick out whatever theirdigital images are.
They can, decide what they wantto order in terms of like album
versus frame versus whatever,and sizes and all that.

(39:37):
And I always offer my assistantsduring those 30 days, like, Hey,
if you're having a hard timedeciding, let's hop on a zoom
and I'll be happy to walk youthrough it.
And then I can do like a microversion of the in person sales,
but the fulfillment is donethrough the gallery.
So I don't have to manage allthe ordering process and all
that sort of thing.
And it's a much more flexibletimeline that I can manage from

(39:59):
my home instead of having to gomeet them in person.

Can you talk to me about the decision to,
have clients select whichpackage they would like to buy
before seeing the photos?
What does that do for you?
And did you have any pushback?
Because I'm sensing thatlisteners are like, Whoa, hold
on a second.
How does that work?
Could you walk me through that?
Sure.

Maybe I didn't say this right.
They actually don't make acollection purchase until
they've seen their images.
And I think that that's, so it'sthe session fee, just like with
in person sales, it's a sessionfee.
Then we have the session.
And then when they get thatpreview, they get the preview
for a short period of time, andthen they purchase a collection.
So before they spend any moneybeyond the session fee, They

(40:44):
know because they've seen themwith their own eyes that like I
am delivering on what I toldthem I was going to, you know,
hopefully they love their imagesand they're ready to go.
And the way that I structure thecollections price wise is such
that I am making my minimumneeds, like I'm meeting my
minimum needs regardless ofwhich collection they purchase.

(41:05):
So I have some good strategiesin place and people thankfully
go for the top collection much,much more frequently, but even
when they choose that smallestcollection, I am good.
Like it was worth my time to gohave a session with them.
So they're happy and I'm happy.

that's a big tip right there.
I think a lot of people, whenfirst getting started, they'll
structure their pricing as Well,I know that I want people to go
for the middle price.
So that's what I'm essentiallygoing to make like my minimum,
like what I need to survive onso that when people do go for
the lowest package, they'relike, Oh no, now I have to get
other clients.
And then that just, more workthere.
So I love that.

(41:42):
Would you be willing to sharewhat are in some of these
collections?
Because I know that a lot ofphotographers and we just have
so many options when it comesto, products that are available.
Are you offering everythingunder the sun or just a handful
of this and a handful of that,and let people decide from
there.

That's a great question.
And it's something that I thinkyou could structure it however
works best for your business.
I'm a big believer that likewhat I love about this system is
that it's super flexible.
You could be a very low endphotographer, and if you run
your numbers and so when I saylow end, I mean let's say 100,
000 as the amount of money thatyou need to earn in the course

(42:21):
of a year, so you could besomeone who photographs 200
Clients for 500 each, or you canbe someone who, you know, makes
2, 000 sales.
So you only end up with 50clients.
Oh my goodness.
Something

like that.

Right.

We'll go with that.
We understand what you'retalking about.

Okay, good.
So the seesaw of like number,you know, volume versus, cost.
So you can set that up in anyway and this sales system still
works and you can add in ifyou're a higher end
photographer, there are lots oflike bells and whistles that you
can add in to make it feel morecustom and you can do things to
kind of zhuzh it up at thehigher end, but at any level, it

(43:01):
ends up being, working for you.
So if you are, let's say one ofthose like high volume, low end
photographers, so you have awhole bunch of products in your
store where it's likerefrigerator magnets and,
wallets and all those kinds ofthings.
That's totally fine.
I tend to teach that You shouldget in the head of your ideal

(43:22):
client and pick, I generally saylike 8 to 10 items.
And when I say items, it's likea category.
So like albums, frames, not likean eight by 10 and an 11 by 14.
Eight to 10 total options.
And then once they decide like,okay, we want to get a frame,
then they might have someoptions inside of there.

(43:43):
But I used to work with an albumdesigner or a lab that did
albums and they had so many cooloptions and a lot of them do
covers and all this stuff.
And I got really into it.
Cause I was like, this is great.
But it kind of came back down tothe choice thing.
This was back in the in personsales days.
I was like, which of these 85different covers do you want?
And then I was having salessessions that went on for three

(44:05):
hours while they like hemmed andhawed about it.
So ultimately I learned that itwas better to make decisions
from my perspective, getting inagain, the mind of my ideal
client and saying, you knowwhat?
90 percent of them are going tobe really happy if they go with
like linen or leather.
So I'm just going to narrow itdown to linen and leather, and

(44:25):
then like seven color optionswithin there.
So I'm all about, first of all,decision making happens as a
journey, right?
You don't make all the decisionsup front and we need to, as
service providers dish thosedecisions out piece by piece.
We can't throw all theinformation at someone at once
and expect them to make any kindof good decision.

(44:47):
Oftentimes they just bail on thedecision making altogether.
But if we're kind of doling itout in bits and pieces, then
they can make the decisionslike, do you want linen or
leather?
Okay, let's go linen.
Okay, great.
Do you want, which of these fivecolors do you prefer?
So all along simple sales.
I am very intentional about whensomeone gets to a decision

(45:10):
point, how many things are theyhaving to think about in this
moment?

I love how you broke that down very easily.
Cause again, when it comes toproducts, there are so many, and
helping people narrow it downreally is going to help.
So thank you for that.
I'm trying to think here.
If there are any objections thatyou get from clients, anything,
like what is the biggest thingthat maybe you wished, is there
anything that you've changedabout the system since you first

(45:35):
implemented it to make it moresuccessful to what it is today?

No big changes in terms of the system itself
from my client's perspectives.
I was so worried that I wasgoing to get a bunch of my long
term in person sales clientsfeeling like I was no longer
providing the same level ofservice and complaining or,
changing photographers, goingwith somebody else in my area.

(46:00):
And, by and large, and I mean,like, almost across the board, I
got not only didn't getpushback, but got people saying,
Oh, this is so great.
I really, appreciate not havingto like schedule that follow up,
appointment.
And I also think that as much asI was positioning the sales

(46:20):
session as like, I'm not, Thisisn't a pushy thing.
And I'm not trying to like hardsell you.
I said that in a more eloquentway, but of course, but I made
it clear to people that I wasn'tthere to browbeat them into a
decision.
And I was not like that when wewere in the sales session
itself, there is still like a,um, there's still an element of,

(46:42):
well, I'm standing here.
What are you going to buy?
That was awkward.
No matter how you like, I gotvery, very used to the process
and still would be like, Oh,here comes this part.
So I also have a podcast and, Idon't know, a while ago, I think
it was around Halloween.
I did a, tales from the inperson sales crypt episode where

(47:02):
I was talking about like some ofthe nightmare situations I found
myself in.
So anyway, my clients reallyliked it.
As far as pushback that I get intheory about simple sales and
the way that it works is fromusually from photographers who
are not interested in like onepart or another.
So there are a few of them.
One of the things that I, I'mpretty adamant about is that

(47:24):
even as much as I'm all aboutlike automating things and
making it super easy andwhatever.
I am a big proponent of having aconversation with your client
with your prospective clientbefore they book with you.
And I think that there's, Icould go into that.
It's a whole episode unto itselfin terms of like why it's
important to talk to someonebefore they book you.

(47:47):
And I get a lot of pushbackabout like, I don't want to get
on the phone and they don't wantto get on the phone and all that
sort of thing.
And so I personally, for me,that's a phone call.
I like to get on the phone withmy clients, but I have flexed in
this way.
I mean, now I have a 16 year oldson who's like, I don't even
know how to talk on the phone.
Nobody talks on the phone, mom.
And so, you know, there areagain, technology is our friend.

(48:10):
There's Voxer.
There was Marco Polo.
I'm not sure if that's stillaround, but like all these
different things where you canhave asynchronous conversations.
Maybe that's your speed.
Maybe you feel more comfortablewith that.
Or maybe, you would prefer toactually have a face to face
conversation and you usesomething like Zoom.
One way or the other, I thinkthat it is important when
someone is hiring you for you tobe able to listen to what they

(48:34):
have to say and respond.
And there's a couple of reasons.
Number one, it gives you anenormous amount of insight as to
what that person's concerns are,objections are, What they're
really looking for.
And over time, you will findthat most people have the same
concerns, objections, and thethings that they're looking for,

(48:54):
at least the things that theysay.
However, on the buyer's end,that's their unique experience,
right?
They don't do this every day.
It's not their job.
So they don't want to berelegated to like the FAQ
section of your website.
They want someone to kind oftake their hand and make them
feel like, Nope, I see you.
I see what you want.

(49:15):
I see what you need.
And here's how I can give thatto you.
I think that it is scary to havea conversation with somebody,
especially when you're new, butyou will learn so, so, so much
from every single one of thoseconversations.
Even the ones where you get a noat the end.
So, you know, nobody's going tobite you.
It's not like an argument.

(49:35):
You just get on the phone, chatwith somebody or get on Voxer
and like address them.
And not only is that going tohelp you, it will in, in that
you'll get more insight.
You will also increase yourbooking.
absolutely.
So that's my evolution on thatpart of it.

That was going to be my next question.
How many times have you been bitby clients?
But I'm glad that you answeredthat question there.
So thank you so much.
Um, you know, before I let yougo, again, the way that you laid
out a lot of, these ideas andthese topics was very helpful
and going to be a veryinspirational to new
photographers.
Since I'm not as intimate withthis system as you are, is there
anything that I didn't ask youtoday that you just want to make

(50:13):
sure that photographers know?

Oh, not off the top of my head.
This was great.
I feel like, it was a longenough conversation because
there is a lot of nuance to it.
I teach the whole system.
If anybody's interested in likelearning more about what this
is, I do teach the whole systemfor free in a masterclass, which
you can go to, this can't bethat hard.
com slash simple to find, butthe, steps of this.

(50:37):
I guess the thing that I wouldsay is that lots of different
strategies can work forphotographers.
And if you are listening to thispodcast and you are at the
beginning of your photographyjourney, there's a lot of noise
out there about, you should dothis, you should do it this way.
This worked for me.
And those people aren'tnecessarily lying.
I would say that I have seenpeople, I myself was successful

(51:01):
with in person sales.
I have seen people be successfulin the long term with all
inclusive sales.
There's nothing wrong witheither of those, if they work
for you.
But I do think that whicheverstrategy you end up going with
to run your business, it'simportant to kind of go all in

(51:21):
on that strategy.
And I would say that that goesbeyond just, your business
strategy, but in all kinds ofways, like your business needs
to be aligned.
And if you do a lot of like,well, I'll take this from this
system and this from thissystem, and I'll try this, you
end up with kind of aFrankenstein business.
And it usually doesn't workperfectly.

(51:42):
So, I would say, if you want tolearn the whole system and you
really want to evaluate whetherthat's right for you, the
masterclass might give you alittle bit more of the detail
piece of it.
but that consistency and kind ofhaving that alignment are key to
any success in your business.

Alright, let's go ahead and recap what we
learned in today's interviewwith Annemie Tonkin.
One is just to commit to a salesstrategy and stick to it.
So whether it's in person sales,you know, creating that luxury
experience, or using an onlinegallery service like CloudSpot,
consistency and full commitmentare the key to making whatever
your choice is work.

(52:19):
But whatever you do, avoidmixing different business
approaches to prevent afrankenstein of a system.
So analyze your cost of doingbusiness to determine, what is a
sustainable pricing structurefor you and then gradually
adjust your rates to align withthose client expectations and
your financial goals.
Takeaway number two is tosimplify client choices, If you

(52:42):
offer a curated number ofoptions, between eight and 10 in
your online store, and then youguide your clients with very
clear steps to help them make adecision, that is going to
prevent overwhelm.
So go ahead and utilize youronline gallery software like
CloudSpot along with Zoom tosimulate an in person sales
experience.
And that will, of course,maintain that client engagement,

(53:04):
which gets them excited and getsthem buying prints.
Lastly, this is to prioritizethe initial client conversation.
So, to establish strongcommunication from the outset,
you want to understand yourclients needs.
So set those clear expectationsand address any potential
concerns that they may have.
Again, you have to engage inthat pre booking conversation to

(53:27):
understand and address thoseconcerns.
So use things like personalizedvideos.
You know, I use a service calledLoom.
You can just record yourselfreal quick and then send it off.
It's super easy.
You even get like a GIF, previewin the email, along with
something like a timed gallery,which you can easily do in cloud
spot to guide your clientsthrough their purchasing

(53:47):
journey.
And then you'll be all set.
That is it for today.
Until next week, remember themore that you shoot today, the
better of a photographer youwill be tomorrow.
Talk soon.

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.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}United States of Kennedy

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Navigating Price Increases in Your Photography Biz with Annemie Tonken

United States of Kennedy