Overcoming Imposter Syndrome in Wedding Photography with Trevor Dayley

Episode Transcript
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Trevor Dayley (00:01):
It's crazy how often we look at our own work
and we are so critical ofourselves.
That would be my, my first thingis I would just tell people,
just be nice to yourself.
Like, you're an amazing person.
You're doing amazing work.
You're doing stuff for people.
Just be nice to yourself anddon't be so overly critical of
your work and try to be such aperfectionist.

Raymond Hatfield (00:21):
Hey, welcome to the Beginner Photography
Podcast, brought to you by CloudSpot.
I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield,and today we are chatting with
highly acclaimed longtimephotographer Trevor Daley about
how to conquer self-doubt, howto build resilience, and find
lasting confidence in yourphotography.
But first.
Guess what the beginner ofPhotography podcast brought to

(00:42):
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(01:04):
only upgrade when you are ready.
So today's guest, Trevor, hasbeen in the photo education
space for a long time.
In fact, I remember reading someof his articles on like
Fstoppers back in 20 12, 20 13.
Like I said, long time and eventhen he had a ton of experience.
But I mean, it's because he hasa lot to say because he is been

(01:24):
shooting weddings for more than20 years.
And in that time he hasreceived, I mean, multiple,
multiple awards for hisphotography.
And from the outside, I think itlooks like he has achieved the
dream of what so, so, so manyphotographers, envision and, and
what they want.

(01:45):
And then not long ago I readthis post that he made for the
Mag Mod Instagram account, andI'm gonna read it for you now.
He says, if I were the deviltrying to ruin a photographer's
career.
Here's how I would do it.
I wouldn't touch their gear, butI'd make them question if they
even deserve to hold it.
I'd show them otherphotographers work, but only the

(02:06):
stuff that went viral.
Only the perfectly curatedimages.
Never the process.
I'd whisper things like you'rebehind or everyone else is
growing, or you're stuck, andthen I would just sit back and
watch them spiral.
I'd convince them that everyclient that ghosted them was

(02:27):
simply proof that they're notgood enough, not worth it, not
wanted.
I would praise the hustle, I'dworship ship it until they
forgot what rest feels like, andthen burnt out with a full
calendar and an empty soul.
I'd use silence like a weapon.
One post with a few likes, huh?
Total failure.

(02:47):
One inquiry left on red, that'srejection.
One off comment that would getyou to think maybe you're not
cut out for this.
I convinced them that theirstyle was too weird or their
editing was too niche, theirvision was just too much, and
slowly I'd mold them into a copyof somebody else.

(03:10):
I'd get them to say yes to everysingle gig that came their way
until they hated their clients,until they resented their work
and until they blame photographyfor the exhaustion that I
caused.
I'd make them feel fake whenthey succeeded.
I'd make them feel unseen whenthey fail and alone either way.

(03:30):
I would weaponize their ownambition.
I'd make them obsessed withgrowth metrics, numbers, and
numb to any of the real meaning.
I wouldn't need to destroy theircareer, just their confidence.
The rest, well, it would justunravel on its.
because a camera doesn't createanything without courage behind
it, and I would make them neverfeel brave again.

(03:53):
I'd smile every time they wouldshake their head at their own
work'cause it didn't feel goodenough.
And I'd win without ever liftinga finger.
If that sounds familiar, itmeans I haven't won yet.
You're still here.
Still holding the camera, stillcreating, still fighting back.
So keep creating, especiallywhen the voices say not to'cause

(04:16):
every photo you take is proofthat I didn't break.
Trevor, you have been, voted oneof the best or the best wedding
photographer in Arizona.
You've been voted one of the top100 best wedding photographers
in the country as well, and I'msure that listeners right now
are thinking to themselves afterhearing your post, like, if I

(04:37):
was in Trevor's shoes beingpraised for my work, I wouldn't
have these thoughts.
I.
If I was voted the best in mystate, I would have the
confidence, I would be creative.
I would have no worries inphotography.
But is that the case?
Because clearly you wrote thepost, like something made you
sit down and write this.

I wish I could say it.
It was unfortunately, I feellike sometimes when you get
those awards, it's almost likeshort term bandaid, right?
It, it kind of makes you feelgood for a short time, and I
almost feel like sometimes thoseawards are better for.
so that your family feels like,oh, okay, Trevor's actually
legit.
He knows what he's doing.
Right?
Like other photographersacknowledge him.
But I think, I think it's stilljust that, that sense of like

(05:21):
self-doubt, that comparison, allthose feelings, they still, they
don't go away.
It doesn't matter how many timesyou win those things or you
know, you get on a stage orwhatever it is.
It just feels like it stillhangs there.

why do you think it doesn't?
I don't wanna say it doesn'tgive validation because there is
a sense of validation there, butlike, personally deep down, how
come it feels more surfacelevel?
How come we tell ourselves thatit doesn't matter when
somebody's presenting us, with atitle or an award.

it's interesting.
I think I'm gonna just.
this up as one of those lifechallenges, right?
I think oftentimes we look atchallenges and sometimes it gets
us down and we get a little bitdepressed and we kind of feel
like, oh man, I can't do this orwhatever.
But I think ultimately we havechallenges in life so we can
grow.
'cause I think.
If we don't actually feel thatway, maybe if we don't feel that
self-doubt or that comparison,maybe we go the opposite way and

(06:10):
we all of a sudden becomeprideful and we become the type
of person that nobody wants tobe around.
because we're out there kind ofthrowing our peacock feathers
and saying, look at me.
Look at me.
Right.
So, it's funny when you ask thatquestion, the first thing that
came to my mind was, I need togo talk to my wife because, for
many reasons.
But one of the big reasons is mywife is actually, she has her
master's in therapy.
Every day she talks to peopleabout challenges and

(06:32):
difficulties that they're goingthrough and the way they feel.
I know this morning she told me.
That she likes to tell herclients.
And it was just funny.
We were just talking as we wereboth in the bathroom, but she
says she likes to tell herclients that, that emotions and
feelings are kind of likecrayons.
And if you only have one andyou're coloring a picture, it
doesn't really show much.
And so oftentimes we have tohave those feelings or those
emotions so that we get abeautiful, coloring a beautiful

(06:55):
picture.
I don't talk to my wife enoughthough, to, I need to hire her
to be my therapist,

That is beautiful.
I love that idea.
I try to tell my kids, I guessit's a similar thing if you want
to think about it like that, butit's like a garden can't grow if
it's just sunshine.
Like it needs some rain, right?
There needs to be this range of,emotions or conditions for you
to, to fully grow.
So, I love that I'm gonna startthinking about that crane

(07:20):
example more.
I think that's gonna resonatemore with my young daughter than
this whole growing an entiregarden example.
So thank you for that.

One other thing I want to just add to that and my
sweet mom, which probably talk aabout her a little bit later
'cause she's a big part of whereI am today and how I became a
photographer, and she passedaway in 2017, but she used to
always tell me the story of oaktrees.
And oak trees, how they don'tgrow their roots down deep,
actually grow their roots outand they interconnect with other

(07:48):
oak trees.

Huh.

and it's that, that sense of community, right?
If we're just growing down,straight down and we're just
like, it's just me.
I don't need everyone else.
Then I think sometimes we.
we lose that.
And I think that's what's sogreat about what you've done is
you've kind of created this,this great sense of community
where people are like, Hey, wegotta help each other.
And oak trees, they get tallerthan most

huge.
Yeah.

Huge.
Right?
and so it, what's interesting isif we're gonna grow tall, if
we're gonna get up there, wehave to interconnect with
others.
And we have to use that as oursupport system because that
self-doubt and that comparisonand all those things that I
talked about in that post,that's.
Otherwise it just, like thedevil knocking us down and
keeping us from doing what wereally love to do.
So.

it is funny.
I feel how much it resonatedwith people, right?
Because, sticking with yourexample there as, as the oak
tree, sometimes when I readsomething I feel like, wait, is
this person speaking directly tome?
Like, this is exactly how Ifeel.
But I don't know if, do otherpeople feel this way as well?
But to see all of the comments,to see all the people saying,
holy cow, like this spokedirectly to me, was almost

(08:52):
eyeopening.
Right?
It made me feel, seen thatothers feel the same way.
Why do you think that itresonated with, with so many
other photographers?

I think it resonated with a lot of
photographers simply because weall go through it, but we don't
talk about it.
we don't have that water cooler,time to escape and talk about
our boss, or, know, whatever itis people do in the offices or,
you know, talk to each other oncubicles and, and rant about,
customers or whatever.
We don't really have that.
And so I think oftentimes asphotographers, we tend to

(09:23):
channel it all and we tend tohold it all in.
And then when we see somebodyelse say, like, that post what I
had said there, it all of asudden resonates where it's
like, dang, that's exactly how Ifeel.
And honestly, when I was readingthe comments to the Post it was
like.
Watering my eyes, or I don'tknow, maybe my wife was cutting
onions in the kitchen.
But, but it,

Yeah.

but it truly, it truly made me feel like, wow,
I'm also not alone.
and you know, when I did thepost it, it's funny, I'm sure
you've seen, or heard, I thinkit's, is it Paul Harvey that did
the, if a devil wants to destroythe nation or something like
that.
I can't remember what it was.
I

No.

it was Paul Harvey.
Paul Harvey was, you know, theold on the radio and so forth,
but that's where it came from.
It was that same idea of, butnot destroying a nation.
But if he wants to destroy me asa photographer, what would he
do?
And as I started putting notesdown, it was funny how quickly
everything just kind of came tomy mind because I think I was
just waiting to share it withsomebody,

Right.

and I think that's where a lot of
photographers are.
They have those thoughts andthey want to share it, and
there's just no one to share itwith.

And sometimes it feels like the internet can
just be this, place to just ventand not exactly in the most
healthy of ways, right?
Like sometimes it's just a bunchof complaining, especially when
it comes to, things like,getting clients and things like
that.
I know a lot of, listeners inthe podcast, community as well
have thought, like, I don't knowhow good this is for me, as a

(10:49):
photographer.
it's helpful in the sense thatwe can communicate a lot of
information being the internet,but ultimately I think there's
just so much more comparisonthat we're doing rather than
taking the information andgrowing ourself where, and then
that just causes things likeself-doubt, of course.
So.
I think that's one of the bigreasons why it resonated with

(11:09):
others as well.
But, before we move on too muchmore, I wanna find out a little
bit more about you because oneof the first questions I always
ask, for new guests is, when didyou know that photography was
gonna play an important role inyour life?
and you alluded to your momright there.
So, tell me the story.
how did you get intophotography?

Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So my mom, she loved photographywhen she was younger and, as a
teenager and so forth.
And so she did a little bit,would charge a little bit of
money here and there tophotograph like models and
headshot portfolios and soforth.
But she never really made moneydoing it, per se.
It was basically enough to buyanother camera, more rolls of

(11:46):
film back in the days.
like that.
But what was nice was I grew upseeing a camera and I, got to
know what it was when I wasyoung.
so eventually the Canon AE onethat she had, that kind of
became my camera.
And I remember she had a 7,200lens on it.
Not like the fancy 72 hundredsthat we see nowadays, right.
But, it was a 7,200 lens.

(12:08):
And, that was like my camera,that she basically would just
buy me rolls of film whenever Iwanted.
and I loved shooting with it andI loved going to the dark room
and I loved, seeing thepitchers, develop under the
water after putting'em on the,exposing'em to light and so
forth.
I just, that whole aspect, Ilove the smell.
I dunno if you ever got a chanceto be work with, in dark rooms,
but I love the

Not printing?
No, just, just developing.

It was funny.
You'd wash your handsafterwards, but that smell would
just stay on your hands.
I just, I loved it.
Oddly as that sounds.
It was fun.
but so my mom always said.
When I grew up, I grew up with abasketball in one hand and a
camera in the other.
Those were like the two thingsthat I loved the most.
It wasn't cartoons on Saturday,it was basketball or
photography.
but you know what's interestingis, is as I went throughout my

(12:52):
life, as much as she was aninspiration, she also kind of
held me back a little bit inthat like, Hey, you can't make a
living doing this.
Like, you'll never actually makemoney doing photography, so make
sure you study and do all theother things.
And so I actually, I went on, Istudied business management.
it did finance for a number ofyears.
And here's the funny thing, Iactually had an office that

(13:14):
overlooked, a wedding venue.
And so I used to look down intothe wedding venue and I would
see couples touring the weddingvenue and seeing it.
And I used to think to myself,man, I really want to like
photograph weddings.
Like that's what I really wantto

Really?

I remember I bought a digital camera.
Gosh, I don't wanna get my, mydates wrong, but I want to say
probably 2004, 2005, maybe.
Maybe it was 2006 even.
I, I wanna say it was a littlebit earlier, I had three younger
girls and I started justphotographing them'cause again,
it was kind of like picking upwhat I used to love doing as a

(13:49):
kid.
and then one day I came home andI told my wife, I said, babe, I
said, if I can book 10 weddings,well you let me quit my job.

10 weddings.
Okay.

yeah, that was my goal, right?
And so she's like, hey, do aslong as you can support our
family, right.
And so I actually, I bookedfive, and then I came home one
day and I said, I'm done with myjob.
I quit today like.

I've changed the rules of the bet.
I'm done.

Exactly.
So I didn't live up to my sideof the bargain, but I will say
this, I didn't have any savingsor anything and it really pushed
me or forced me to, to just goout there and meet wedding
planners and tell'em who I was.
And it was kind of a unique timebecause there was this
transition from film to digital.
And then also at the time, a lotof people with digital, they
were shooting digital, but theywere also making you print, you

(14:35):
had to buy the

Yeah.

so forth.
And I was more like, Hey, I'mgonna give you the photos.
It's not that big a deal.
here, here's the interestingthing, Raymond.
My mom, like I said, she was myinspiration.
But I did not tell her that Iquit my job and started doing
wedding photography, and thatwas May when I did it.
It wasn't until Thanksgiving

No way.

yeah, we, we were sitting around the table and she
said, she goes, how's your jobgoing?
how are things going at the, the

What job?

Yeah.
I said, unfortunately, they hadto let me go.
I lied.
I'm sorry, mom.
I apologize, but I.
I kind of lied because I wasafraid'cause I knew that, as
much as she loved photography aswell, she just wanted the best
for her kids.
And she didn't think, you know,the starving artist.
Right.
And so yeah, I fibbed a littlebit and I, I told her, but don't
worry, mom, I've been doingwedding photography and of

(15:23):
course her eyes get really big,you know, like, what?
I said, and I, and I gotweddings booked like I'm doing.
Okay.
I wanna say were to go like oneyear from that May, I wanna say
I probably did about 20weddings.
But the next year I did 52weddings.

Wow.

yeah, which was way, and that's the most I've
ever done in one year, and I'llnever do that again.
But it was just, I was takinganything and everything right,
and just trying to, to get outthere as much as I could,

You know what's funny is that, my wife
talks to her mom on the phonemultiple times a day, right?
Like every single day.
And I probably talked to my momon the phone once every other
week, right?
And I was like, that's such a,that's such a boy story, right?
Like, not to tell your mom thatyou completely changed your
career, and even to do thisthing that, that she loved as

(16:09):
well.
And that is, I could totally seemyself doing that.
I could totally see myself doingthat,

I just didn't want anyone to talk me out of
it.
And, you know, I'll add one morething to this.
It's, it's a little bit morbid,but I always thought I was gonna
die early.
Like,

Hmm.

like I was gonna die in my thirties.
I mean, literally from, as alittle kid, I always thought,
I'm like, oh, I'm never gonnalive that long.
I could never see myself as agrandpa or whatever.
And so, oddly enough, when Imade that decision, it was, I
want to do something for myselfthat I know I love.
And that I know I can do wellbefore that happens.
Fortunately, I'm, I've made itinto my late forties, so I'm

(16:44):
doing okay.
But that was also kind of amotivation for me as, as weird
as that sounds.

Yeah, I think, maybe that's the thing that you
should talk to your wife about.
Like why, why did you have thatthought in your head?
That's, that's very interesting.
I wanna go back to that decisionthough to leave your job, right?
So you said, if I can book 10weddings, can I quit my job?
Right.
You booked five and I'm assumingto this point you'd never shot a
wedding before.

No, I had done a little bit of video for weddings
back when I was in, college.

Okay.

video and I did, but, so I had a exposure to the
industry a little bit, but

Yeah.

never photography.

wow.
you just really dove all the wayin trying to book as many
weddings as possible before youeven knew if you were truly
gonna like it or not.
that is a huge gamble.
That is a huge gamble.
so then building on the ideathat you didn't want anybody to
talk you out of it,

Yeah.

Why weddings?
Like, why was that the thingwhen I feel like there's so many
other ways that would be easier.
There's so many other genresthat could be easier to get into
photography with a shorter leadtime.
Right.
Seniors, families, all thesethings.
What was it specifically aboutweddings that drew you to them?

It's interesting, so seniors at that time wasn't
extremely popular.
Like it's gotten a lot morepopular as a genre of
photography.
And honestly, if I could startmy business over again, I would
love to focus just on seniors.
Like it would be amazing to goout and shoot a session for an
hour and a half and spend anhour and a half editing and be
done and passing on, you know,like I would love that.
But at the time it wasn't reallypopular.

(18:12):
I will say families, I love mykids, but I have the hardest
time photographing otherpeople's little toddlers and
things.

Dude, same.
Yeah.

I would much rather take a 15 hour wedding
than an hour of like dealingwith a crying kid.
and the funny thing is, it's noteven usually the kid, like I
have empathy for the kid.
It's typically the.
Parents,'cause the parents getall frustrated and they're like,
Yona like, just smile at Trevor.
Like, will

Yeah.

You know?
And then they, you try to bribe'em and things.
honestly for me it was more, Ijust enjoyed going to, to being
at the happiest day for people.
to be able to be there anddocument it.
Like, I got to see so manyamazing stories just of things
unfolding.
And, and honestly, I think thecool thing about weddings too,
well.
I shouldn't say about weddings.
This is really about everything.
I was just gonna say, as, as aphotographer, the coolest thing

(18:59):
about it is your photos get moreand more valuable as time
passes.
Well, as long as the coupledoesn't get a divorce.
Right.

Sure.

but I mean, but like, the amount of times I've
seen them, the photos I've takenused, like, on, again, I don't
mean to be morbid here, but likefuneral programs, like parents
who have passed and things likethat, to me, just touches my
heart so much to know that.
I was able to create somethingfor them that they wanted it to
be like, this is me,

Mm-hmm.

what I look like.
and I think as a photographerthat is just special.
there's not very many jobs outthere that things get more and
more valuable, as time passes.
So it seems like everything justgets less and less valuable.

Right.
Yeah.
I once had a shot, a weddingwhere, this was like a terrible
situation.
It was pretty early on in mycareer where, the father.
The bride was like, how do Iknow you're not gonna run off
with our money?
Like, is there any way that Ican pay you the final payment
after the wedding?
And I was just so desperate.
I was just like, yeah, okay,sure.
Yeah, that's fine.
Well, he didn't tell hisdaughter the bride this,

(20:01):
agreement that we had had.
So after the wedding, I hadedited up all the photos.
They're done, I'm ready todeliver them.
I can't until I get that lastpayment.
So I reach out to the father, Itell him, Hey, photos are ready,
ready for that payment wheneveryou are.
I hear no response.
I'm waiting.
I'm waiting.
Still, nothing.
So finally I have to reach outto the bride and tell her like,

(20:22):
Hey, your photos are done.
In fact, they've been done.
I'm just waiting on that finalpayment from your dad.
And that's when she let me knowthat, Her dad had actually
passed away just like weeks.
or I'm sorry, not weeks.
Just days after the wedding.
Just days after the wedding.
I know.
And I thought like, Ugh, what asituation to be in.
Like, I just wanted to get intothis career to just take some
cool photos, And now here I am,creating something for these

(20:44):
families that.
I can't understand the weight orthe value of, and that is, um,
yeah, just a testament toexactly what you said there.
It's something incredible to bea part of and I think that for
me, like that made me approachshooting weddings entirely
different once that hadhappened.
But, there's also a lot ofthings when it comes to
photography that aren't asexciting that aren't as, that

(21:07):
don't get us going.
Right.
So going back to your postthere, we talked, a little bit
about this earlier from, youaddress so many things from the
comparison that we have to otherphotographers, the self-doubt in
our work itself.
the hustle trap, like, man, isthat a thing, right?
staying creative, the strugglesof business.

Hmm.

I know that you've gone through all these
things'cause you've been in itfor as, as long as you have.
So let me ask you, what is themost difficult part for you for
being a photographer?
As in like on its hardest day?
What about being a weddingphotographer makes you consider
giving it all up?

Yeah.
I think it will be surprisingfor a lot of people to hear
this, but I think the honestanswer is the self-doubt.
I've shot over 500 weddings.
You would think after 500weddings that there's gotta be a
point after a hundred weddings.
You would think there's gotta bea point where it's like, I can
do this just fine.
Like I can go out there and Ican, I can create images and I

(22:07):
can capture and document it andmake people look their best.
You would think, right?
But it just seems like that thatself-doubt never goes away.
You know, a lot of people usethe word imposter syndrome.
I don't belong here any momentnow.
Somebody's gonna knock me on theshoulder and say, Hey, you need
to leave.
You're

Yeah.

for this.
And truly, I think what it'sgotten to a point now where I've
just come to accept that that'sgonna be there and that self
doubt's going to, it's like thatlittle angel or the little devil
that sits on your shoulder,right?
And it says, no, you can't dothis.
You can't do this.
And I kind of have to just letit, like, let it be.
There's a great book.
I don't know if you've read thisbook or heard of this book.

(22:44):
But I've recently been listeningto it on audiobook, and I, I
recommend anybody if you likeaudiobooks, the author, she does
a great job actually, readingher own books and I, I love'em,
but it's Mel Robbins and thebook is, So let them theory.

Yeah, I've heard of it.
I have, I have not read it, butI I've heard of it, yes.

I love that book.
Two of my favorite chapters,actually.
I listened to'em multiple times.
It's chapter nine and Chapter10, and one of'em, chapter
nine's about how life isn'tfair, and then chapter 10 is
about comparison.
So I think it goes right back tothat post, right?
Which is like.
Life isn't fair.
I really don't belong here.
This hand of cards has beendealt to me.

(23:23):
I really don't think I couldplay it the best way possible.
You know, I'm comparing myselfto everybody else.
Like, it's, yeah, I think it'sjust come to the point where now
I've, I've realized like I'm notgonna find a solution to it.
I need to just accept it.
It's gonna be there, let ithappen, and then just let me
excel in whatever environmentI'm in at that moment, you know?

I can definitely relate to the showing
up to a wedding.
And like you said, more than ahundred weddings in, it's like,
why do I still feel butterflies?
Like what?
Like what could possibly happentoday that, I'm gonna completely
bomb, but you do still feel it,so,

Just to add to that, I've kind of come to that,
that point now wherebutterflies, to me, it just
reminds me that, hey, you'redoing something important.

huh.

sitting on the couch watching tv.
You're not gonna havebutterflies doing that, right.
But

Right.

up to a wedding, it's like that nervousness.
it's the same feeling.
used to speak a lot at WPPI.
So I spoke for four or fiveyears in a row, and it was on
the platform stages in front ofa few hundred photographers.
And I love public speaking, likeI actually don't mind it at all,
but every single time I wouldget those butterflies and I had
to remind myself like, Hey,you're doing something

(24:31):
important.
You're hopefully gonna make animpact on at least one person
out there.
And so, that's what thosebutterflies are for, just to
remind you of that.
And I think it's the same thingwith weddings, right?

That is a really good way to look at it.
Yeah, I like that it's like yourbody's telling you that you're
taking this seriously and thatyou don't wanna mess it up.
I like that a lot.
So then how do we work withinthat, right?
Because if we have thesefeelings, how do we know if that
feeling is, unpreparednessversus, man, I just really want

(25:00):
to do a good job.
Like this is specifically forbeginners who maybe they don't
have many weddings or shootsunder their belt.

That's such a great question because that
whole preparedness part of it,we can always feel like we can
do more.
Right,

Always.

And so I don't think that will ever go away.
And again, I think that's just areminder.
Like, Hey, you want to do thebest you can do.
And so you're constantly tryingto tell yourself like, what more
can I do to be prepared?
And so that unpreparedness isjust you reminding yourself like
you're awesome.
Like you want to do the best youcan possibly do.
So I have a son who's a nationallevel wrestler, right?

(25:35):
He's 16 years old, but hewrestles on big national stages
and he's just, he's one of thebest out there and he is
incredible.
And I have to tell him all thetime, like, the anxiety, the
nerves that you're feeling likethat's just gonna help you
perform your best.
Right.
and it's kind of like, there's agreat, I can't remember, I wish
I could give credit to theperson who said this.
It might've actually been in MelRobbins book.

(25:55):
Quite honestly, I don'tremember.
Brene Brown also does a lot ofgreat books that I love reading,
might, might've got it from her,but what they said was, when
you're crossing a street, if youdon't have anxiety, then I would
be nervous for you.
Right.
And, and I don't mean likeanxiety, like, debilitating
anxiety, but if you're not alittle bit nervous when you're
crossing the street, like,paying attention, looking for

(26:16):
cars and stuff, then I would benervous that you're just gonna
walk out there and get hit by acar.
Like you gotta be a little bitnervous.
And I think that goes withweddings.
It goes with my son when hewrestles, like all that, it has
to be there, right?
Like, that's how we perform ourbest is when we have those
feelings.
So I think it's a good thing toembrace and be excited about it
and just acknowledge it and knowthat it's gonna come.

(26:37):
And then when it's there, it'slike, Hey, this is cool.
I'm turned on, I'm locked in.
I'm ready to go and I'm gonnaperform my best today.

Wow.
that's a perfect, example rightthere.
Perfect analogy.
I'm trying to think though for amoment.
I mean, I know that you've beenin the world of professional
photography for so long, butthere are a number of listeners
who photography is their hobby,right?
And when they go out and shoot,maybe there aren't the same
stakes.
They're going out to a localpark and they're just looking
for some good light or a bird orsomething like that.

(27:06):
And maybe they don't feel thatsame intensity of, of the
butterflies or the nervousness.
Do you have any recommendationson how they can maybe
artificially bring some weightand stress into their
photography to that willencourage them to be pushed
rather than scare them away.

Ooh, that's a great question, Raymond.

Thanks.

I wish I could have more of those days where I
don't feel, because,

Right.

think that, I think that goes to.
know, the photographers thatwhen you're getting paid for
jobs constantly, you want tojust do those like jobs for
yourself, right?

Yeah.

do we call those, like the creative projects or,
something that we're, and Ithink that's wise is because we
want to go on a shoot and notfill that.
I would say, if I wanted to filla little bit of nervousness, I
would try to give myself achallenge of something that
maybe I haven't done in thepast.
Whether that's, maybe it's usingoff-camera flash, right?
Maybe I've never actually pushedmyself and used flash, and it

(28:04):
doesn't matter.
It could be photographingflowers, it could be
photographing people.
Maybe it's, Hey, I've alwaysshot with a wide open aperture
because, that's the way Ilearned.
I saw incredible photographers.
I want to replicate their style.
So I always shot at 1.2 or 2.8.
know what, I'm gonna go back andI'm gonna use the lens.
And I'm gonna shoot everythingat F eight and I'm gonna see
what I can create, with that.
Or this time I'm gonna go outand photograph, but I'm only,

(28:27):
I'm gonna make sure there'salways something in the
foreground, middle groundbackground.
I'm always gonna make sure thatI have layers to my photograph.
And I, I think if I just gavemyself a little bit more of
those challenges as opposed tojust going out and shooting to
shoot, I think that would maybegenerate some of that nerves a
little bit.
Like, okay, I need to performand then.
Of course, I think always justsharing your work too.
oftentimes it's a little bitless, intense.

(28:50):
We don't really feel the nervesif we know nobody else is gonna
see it.
Right?
So if we kind of challengeourselves and say, Hey, I'm
gonna go out and do this shootand I'm gonna make sure I share
two or three photos with otherpeople, I think that would
probably kick up some of thosenerves too.
But

Yeah.

though.

Oh, that's funny.
Yeah, it's like we have thisfeeling of like, man, there's
never enough eyes on my workwhen I post it on social.
But at the same time, if you'reasked to post something on
social, it's like, oh, but noweverybody's gonna be looking at
my work and critiquing it.
That's funny.
That just human nature rightthere.

social is such a hard thing, man.
you know what's interesting?
If anyone goes and looks at myInstagram, in fact, you know
what I'm gonna, do this rightnow.
I'm gonna say

Okay.

going forward, I'm gonna post one time a bring
me back in a year.
let's make sure I held myself tothis,

Okay.

But I have not posted on my own social media
and for the longest time I didrecently, you know, a couple
family things that I posted upthere just'cause like a journal
that I could have.
I share on Facebook a lot, butit's just my personal, again,
it's like a journal, sharingfamily stuff.
I've done such a terrible jobposting on Instagram I'm on it
every day, but I do it for otherpeople.

(29:56):
Like Mag Mod, for example, is acompany I work with and I do all
their social media for them, butI don't do it for myself.
And honestly, it goes back tothat whole, like, I don't want
to post, like I'm plenty busy.
I have, enough weddings rightnow and I don't want to be
compared to other people and I'mnot good enough.
You know it, it's crazy.
Isn't that crazy?
After so many weddings, I stillfeel that way, and I know other

(30:17):
people feel that way too.
But

Really, you think it's, simply that, you are
taking the foot off the gas alittle bit because you have the
weddings booked more so than,the comparison.

no, it's definitely the comparison.
I say it's the weddings

I'm sorry.
I meant the other way around.
Yeah.

yeah.
No, say, yeah.
Oh, I don't need more weddings.
And then that's kinda my excuse.
But in reality, it truly is.
Like, I still struggle with thecomparison aspect of it.
I still struggle, like posting,and this is exactly what my post
when you read it in thebeginning, there.
still struggle with that.
Like, oh, I posted it, but itonly got 40 likes

Mm.

five likes, or, whatever.
and you know, the hard part toois being that I've on Instagram
every single day and doing, andI run numbers every single week
and I'm looking at all thisstuff and Instagram, it
literally.
The metrics and stuff, they keepfalling and falling and falling
and it, it's so much harder foreven newer photographers getting
into it trying to get peopleinterested in their work and

(31:10):
just posting and then, seeingfour or five people like your
post, and it's just like, ugh.
It's so frustrating.

All right.
Well then I'm gonna play devil'sadvocate here, why even bother?
Like if it just is a race to thebottom, essentially, why even
bother with it?

The biggest reason why we do it is because
it's our chance to actually havea portfolio out there for people
to see, right?
When clients want to go look atour work and they want to see
like, well, first off, theywanna see are you still working?
So, so it's like, are youactually still out there doing
jobs?
Yes, he is.
He's out there still doing jobsand wedding coordinators,
everyone else, right?

(31:45):
reason is because it's ourhighlight reel.
It really is our highlight reel.
And that's the interesting thingis oftentimes as photographers,
again, we go out on a wedding,we shoot 4,000 photos, we see
all the terrible stuff wecreated, and then we compare
ourselves to the highlight reelsof everybody else.
But that's what social is.
It's just a highlight reel.
And so it's kind of like, youknow, in baseball, fact, you
actually talked about baseball,I think not too long ago, where

(32:07):
Freddie Freeman, you talkedabout the

Yeah,

and the, the Grand Slam and every, but the
interesting thing is how manytimes, and you mentioned this,
how many times are they up tobat?
How many pitches are thrown atthem?
And it's just that one home run,right?
That one home

that's all that matters.

yeah, it's a such a small fraction, a sliver of
their at bats and their pitchesthat are thrown at them.
that's what social media is.
It's literally us putting ourbest work out there.
And then, funny enough.
We compare our worst stuff toeveryone's best stuff.
But that's why, even though it'sa race to the bottom, that's why
I would still do it right now isbecause that's how people see
that we're working and that'show they can actually see some

(32:41):
of our, our photos.
Right.

So, should we just be looking at social media
differently?
So instead of trying to get thathome run, instead of trying to
get that grand slam every singletime, simply just creating a
place that is a portfolio ofour, or is a representation of
our images and not worry aboutanything else.

Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And you know, I would use socialmedia for two things.
So one, it's that it's put ourhome runs up there, and two,
it's to celebrate other people.

Mm-hmm.

And what I mean by that is.
There's a lot of photographersout there that you could look at
their work.
You could be jealous, you couldbe frustrated.
They got the better hand dealt.
They were able to work with acuter couple or shoot in the
amazing destination or whateverit is, right?
You could come up with athousand reasons why they lucked
out and you didn't.
But we should look at it fromthe opposite.
We should say, how can Icelebrate this person?

(33:33):
How can I be excited for them?
It's amazing how often wefrustrate ourselves, but then
we, we realize, like if I justcelebrate that person and go out
and say like, wow, this isincredible, the connection we
make with those people that canthen lead to business later on.
know, it could actually, theycould send us a client maybe
that, that, they're busy.

(33:53):
and they have another referralthat came in, and then suddenly
they reach out to you and say,Hey, you've been so nice on
social and I've loved all thestuff you've said, and you
commented and you celebrated mysuccess and so forth.
Would you be interested inworking with this couple?
Same thing with weddingcoordinators.
You know how many weddingcoordinators post photos from
their weddings, the decor andeverything else, and then nobody
comments on it

Right.
Right.

Like wedding photographers should be, they
should be on there, on socialcommenting on all that stuff,
just so they can

Hmm.

celebrate the success of the wedding planners.
And surprisingly, that's how alot of business will come your
way as well.
So I don't give up on it.
Use it to, to show your homeruns, right.
Use it to show your highlights,and then use it to celebrate the
success of others instead ofcomparing yourself.
people up.
And I think in the process ofdoing that, you're gonna be
lifted up as well.

That's so interesting is that, basically
you said use social media, tointeract with people.
Like, like, deal with them,create a community, make it
social.
Right.

Social.
Right.

Yeah, what an interesting concept right there.
No, I thought it was all aboutalgorithms and just hoping to
immediately go viral right awaywith every photo that we post.
But, no, I love that because,we're humans, and we want to
connect with others.
Not only do we want to connectwith others, but we also want
others to connect with us.
And I think that that secondpart, we want others to connect
with us.
is outweighed on social mediabecause it just feels like,

(35:12):
well, I did my part, I put outthe photo.
Now it's time for all theaccolades to come into me.
But yeah, that's good.
the table around and interactwith others.
That's, I like that.

and you know, going back to that original post
that I made, I think oftentimesthose feelings, those
self-doubt, the comparison, allthat, the hustle, everything we
weigh ourselves down with itwill all be lifted if we just go
and, well, I shouldn't say all.
It will be there.
A little bit will be there.
It won't, it won't go away forgood, but I think it will be
lightened.
actually go out there and, talkto others and celebrate those

(35:44):
successes.
It's funny how we, oftentimeswe'll look at somebody else's
photograph, right?
And we'll be like, oh, okay.
Wow.
they did that.
I can no longer do that.
'cause they already did it,right?
Like, I can't, like we almostcompare ourselves and we say,
oh, they did that pose already.
So I don't want to do thatbecause I don't want people to
think I copied that.
and we shouldn't be thinkingthat way.
We should be thinking like.

(36:04):
Wow, that works really, reallywell.
I'm gonna make sure I do thatsame type of thing at my next
shoot.
Like we should be actuallylooking at the successes of
people.
Not, I'm not saying go out andjust copy a bunch of people, but
I'm saying look at thosesuccesses and if you like that,
then do it like that should behow we're using social is like
find the type of home runs thatyou want to hit yourself.
I think the best batters in theworld, I guarantee it.

(36:27):
They studied the batters beforethem that they looked up to and
they studied the way they swungand their, the way they hit.
And they studied their routineand what they ate and how they
worked out and things like that.
And that's what we should usesocial for is, is look at the
best people, study'em, celebratetheir successes, and then find
out how we can use that to kindof lighten that load for
ourselves, you know, so.

I wish I would've included that in the
baseball episode, because thatwas a perfect example right
there.
Yeah.
Use those who came before you,as a studying, opportunity.
Right.
To figure out what made them sogreat so that you can then do
the same instead of what we dowith social media, which is just
do nothing but compare and say,oh, I'll never, I'll never be
that good.
but you had mentioned, thehustle there as well, and that

(37:07):
was, that was a big part, that Iwanna talk about because, I
don't wanna name names, butlike, ever since really, like
Gary V came along and was justlike, you gotta hustle all day
every day.
I mean, that.
That was something that Isuffered from because I thought
if I just work more thaneverybody else, I'm gonna have
more success than everybodyelse.
But really it wasn't, there waskind of a lack of focus, right?

(37:28):
the time spent working is not asimportant as the things that you
focus on, I suppose.
So, as somebody who has not onlybuilt a, successful, wedding
photography business, but, Iwant to know, like from your
perspective.
What are the things that weshould be focusing on so that we
do have this balance betweenworking on the things that need

(37:49):
to be done, the hustle and therest element as well?

Hmm.
You know what's interesting?
So my wife and I, we justcelebrated 25 years of marriage.

Raymond Hatfie (37:57):
Congratulations.

well, thank you.
I, about two to three years intothe photography, it was
probably, probably after thatyear of doing 52 weddings, quite
honestly.
am surprised we stayed married.
the reason I say that is becauseI was not present.
I was constantly, I would be uptill two, three in the morning
editing photos and constantlygone.
And I would be on Facebook a lotand Facebook groups and just

(38:22):
kind of building a brand andletting people know who I am and
all this stuff.
And I was just work, work, work,work, work.
And I remember I get almost.
Almost a little emotionalthinking about it, but I
remember a night where my wifewas basically like, I'm done.
Like, I don't see you.
I don't know who you are.
Like, I'm done and I'm gonnamove on.
And I remember telling her thatnight, like, Hey, just gimme

(38:43):
tonight.
Let me figure this out.
Let me figure out what I can do.
Let.
To make this system so I can, Ican work a lot faster and be
done quicker and so forth.
Because again, I was measuringhow long I was spending on how
successful I was gonna be.
Right.
I wasn't finding shortcuts.
I was trying to say like, oh, ifI just spend 20 hours of work on

(39:05):
a day, then obviously I'm gonnabe successful.
And I remember that night, andagain, this was back in the days
right before we have all the AIand all the crazy amazing stuff
that we have nowadays, Iremember that night I learned a
really successful way of usingbatch processing in Photoshop.
I was able to set up someactions and do all kinds of
really cool things that before,for years and years I had tried,

(39:26):
but I could never get it to workproperly for me.
I don't know if you ever had togo through the, the, a horrors
of learning batch processing inPhotoshop,

No.

night.
That night, I figured it out andI was up till three, four in the
morning working on it, and Ifigured it out and I remember
thinking, and I remember tellingmy wife like, I figured out a
way that it's gonna cut my time,by half or whatever it was.
I don't remember, but I, Iremember saying like, I'm gonna
be more present.
it was a turning point for me inrealizing that it's not the
amount of time that I spend inmy businesses determinant of how

(39:56):
successful I'm gonna be.
It's really just like, how can Ideliver what my clients expect,
but maybe do it in the leastamount of time possible?
and that whole hustle aspectagain.
I think sometimes, you know, aswe're getting started, we think
like, oh, I gotta take on everysingle job.
Even if that means I'm shootingthree weddings this weekend.
I gotta just take'em on.
I gotta take'em on.
'cause it's me trying to showthat I'm being successful.

(40:16):
And in reality, we.
We tend to just burn ourselvesout, or we're working so hard
that we make a huge mistake.
Maybe we don't back up photoslike we should have, and then
suddenly we feel so bad that wejust wanna leave the industry
entirely, right?
We don't wanna do weddingsanymore because we feel so bad
we let somebody down.
So I would just encourageeveryone, just, Hey, find ways
of, making it easier, spendingless time, and really, really,

(40:40):
really focusing on your family.
And I'll, I'll say this and Iapologize.
I'm talking way too much here,but say that one of the ways
it's forced me to spend timewith my family is I will
volunteer to coach.
So I will coach soccer, I willcoach wrestling, it makes me
connect with my kids and like Ihave to literally leave my
computer.
I have to go'cause people aredependent on me to, to coach

(41:02):
their kid in soccer.
this evening and then on theweekends and so forth.
And it has been so rewarding forme.
So I would just say findsomething that is gonna, you
know, soccer practices and stuffworked for me because it forced
me to be there.
I had to show up, right?
So I had to find ways of gettingmy work done so I could be
there.
Oftentimes when we're workingfor ourselves, we don't set
limits.

(41:22):
We don't set hours.
We just hustle, hustle, hustle.
And so find those things thatyou like, sign yourself up for,
and it forces you to the forcingfunction, right?
It forces you to be there.

I know that, you.
Are too humbled to admit this,but, if you check out, Trevor's
Instagram, his soccer team wentundefeated this season.
So, it's not that he's justpresent, but he's like really
doing it as well.
So he's practicing what hepreaches here.
okay, so let me ask, I'm gonnapush back, or push on this a
little more because it soundseasy to just, oh,

Hmm.

I'm just gonna make this easier, right?
like that advice.
Oh, just make everything easierlike that.
That sounds great, but.
for you having, been in weddingsfor, 20 plus years, having shot
500 weddings,

Mm-hmm.

you have the experience.
tell me, tell the listeners ifthey want to build a successful
wedding photography career, whatis the one or the two things
that they should really focus onto, not only speed up their
entire workflow, but if they getthis one thing right.
Everything else will just seemeasier.

Yeah.
first off, all of us want to beperfectionists.
we all want to do it

It's our art.

Yeah, totally.
Totally.
And when we're zoomed in andwe're spending extra two or
three minutes on a photograph,like making sure every last
little eyelash is perfect, likeI guarantee it, nobody is gonna
notice that stuff.
And you have to just let thatgo.
Like you have to know that, hey.
You don't need to be aperfectionist.
The photographs are good enough.
you know, what was interestingfor me, there was a time where I

(42:54):
was in a Target and my wife wasactually, she was shopping, she
was doing her thing, and Istarted looking and I haven't
been in a Target in years, but Iimagine they're probably still
the same way.
There was these hugephotographs, like big
photographs hanging from theceilings and then there were
some that were kind of lower,but you know, anyhow, I started
walking up to all thesephotographs and I probably
looked like a weirdo in thetarget, but as my wife shopping,

(43:18):
I was walking up and I was juststaring at the photographs and
just analyzing'em.
Right.
And I remember, it's so funnyhow this sticks with me, but I
remember looking at thosephotographs and going those
eyelashes, they're not even infocus.
Like, oh man, that eye rightthere, that's not even in focus.
And I remember thinking tomyself, I would've tossed that
photo out.
Like I would, that would'venever been a keeper for me.

(43:40):
Or I would've tried to fix thatsomehow.
It's crazy how often we look atour own work and we are so
critical of ourselves.
so that, that would be my, myfirst thing is I would just tell
people, just be nice toyourself.
Like, you're an amazing person.
You're doing amazing work.
You're doing stuff for people.
Just be nice to yourself anddon't be so overly critical of

(44:00):
your work and try to be such aperfectionist.
The second part of thatquestion, I might be wrong, in
the direction I'm going here,but I, I want to share something
that I think if I were tellingsomebody, Hey, you're starting a
new wedding business, how can Igrow this business?
I mentioned earlier, socialmedia wedding coordinators.
can't tell you how many timesI've been at weddings.

(44:20):
sometimes it's even justassisting somebody else, but how
there's like no connectionbetween the photographer and the
other vendors, especially thewedding coordinator.

Ah.

is the one that's gonna get you the business.
But I always try to have areally good connection.
Every time I see'em, I fist bump'em, I give them hugs, I try to
really make sure, embrace themas much as I can and let them
know who I am.
That's how I built my businessoriginally.
I remember there was a weddingcoordinator, her name was Emily,
and Emily's like, Trevor, you'relike way different than all the

(44:49):
other wedding photographersbecause you're just so fun to
work with and being on time toeverything.
If they have a, a timeline that,you know, maybe sunsets at seven
o'clock and they say, Hey, weneed you back by six 50.
And you're like, well, but waitsunsets at seven o'clock.
Well, unfortunately, you'regonna have to forego sunset.
You need to be back at 6:50.
You need to follow thattimeline.
Right?
And so I think that's the otherthing is just.

(45:10):
make sure you're embracing thosepeople.
And really, if every wedding Igo to, I try to walk away from
that wedding thinking, okay, I'mgonna get four more weddings
from this wedding, whether it befrom the bridal party, from the
family, like the parents, or,you know, the wedding
coordinator.
I'm going to get more weddingsfrom it.
And so, yeah, if I were startingout.
Those are the two things I'dwatch out for that perfectionism
and wasting too much time onthat kind of stuff.

(45:31):
And then, of course, making surethat I, I really connect with
the people that I'm workingwith.

That's a great tip'cause once again, it's about
being social.
It's about building connectionswith people.
so rarely is booking more gigsabout how great, the technicals
of your photography are.
Just like your example therewith that photo there Target.
that's one of the thing that Ithink is so hard for new
photographers to understandbecause it's like we're trying
to learn this tool to the bestof its ability, but

Yeah,

only matters so much at some point, a photo
that might be slightly out offocus or underexposed.
But the moment is fantastic isgonna outweigh any photo that is
technically perfect, but superboring.
That's the art, that's thesubjective part of it.
but.
It sounds like as long as we'remaking connections with others,
well, another Brene Brown quote,right?

(46:19):
people don't care what it isthat you say, they'll just
remember how you made them feel.
That is, that is one of the mostimportant things.
So, I really appreciate that.

Well, I was just gonna add one more thing to
that.
One of the things that I, havereally enjoyed, so I think a lot
of photographers, especially ifthey're getting started, they
maybe they have to have a sidegig.
Maybe they have to do some sidework as well.
I've kind of gone the oppositedirection.
gotten to the point where I wasdoing 30, 35 weddings a year,
and I've kind of said, you knowwhat?
I want more of my weekends.
And actually I'm gonna blame myson, the wrestler, because

(46:46):
oftentimes they wrestle on theweekends and I, I wanted to be
there on his mat.
I wanted to coach him, I wantedto travel with him to big
tournaments and so forth.
And so I started pulling back onweddings and I said, okay, I,
instead of doing 30, 35weddings, I wanna do 10 or 15
weddings'cause I still lovedoing it.
I still want to do it.
And I actually, I startedworking with, with Mag Mod.
But what I love about what I dowith Mag Mod, Mag Mod is a, for

(47:08):
those who don't know, it's alight modifier company.
So they do all the modifiers forflashes, soft boxes, and so
forth.
I know you've talked about'embefore but what I love about
what my job that I get to do atMag Mod is I get feature
people's work.
So, I get to help them growtheir community.
I get to feature people onInstagram, and it's so fun to
actually show other people'swork and say, look at this

(47:28):
photographer and celebrate theirsuccesses.
Like, it's literally what I getto do on a daily basis.
So, yeah, I would just encouragepeople, if you're also looking
for something that maybe you cando on the side, maybe look at, a
way that you can, even if it'snot in the industry, maybe if
it's something else, but try tofind ways where you can, you can
kind of push and celebratepeople.
So.

I feel like there's a lot of opportunities
for that, that, we just, they'reprobably right in front of our
face and we just, we just don'tsee'em.
'cause

Right.

think it's human nature to be, wrapped up
in ourselves, right.
To be self-involved, becausethat's, well, that's how we
survived for, so many thousandsof years.
But, we don't live in thecaveman days anymore.
Right.
Like, we're not being chased bytigers or lions or whatever,
like we can take a break andcelebrate others.
And that is, that is great.
So, Trevor again, man, I have amillion more questions for you,

(48:14):
but I really wanna be mindful ofyour time.
We've technically gone over.
So let me wrap this up with onefinal question here.
One of the things that you hadmentioned in your post is that,
we can convince ourselves thatour photos are too weird or too
niche, right?
And your advice in there is, Iguess if we reverse engineer
that, that we should be as weirdas we are, we should be as

(48:36):
niched as we are, right?
But that can be hard when welook on social and all of these
quote unquote hero shots aregetting all the likes and the
love.
So what is your advice on how toembrace that weirdness, that
niche style of photography,rather than slowly conforming
into somebody else's style?

(48:56):
what advice do you have?

Yeah.
You know, it's interesting, youhad mentioned Gary V earlier,
and I know you kind of mentionedhim, like how he's pushing that
hustle, hustle, hustle.
Right?
which, sometimes maybe is notthe best thing for us.
I think in some businesses ahundred percent, but maybe,
maybe we need to not hustle somuch and actually takes some
time for ourselves.
But, what I do love about Gary,and one thing that he does say
that I think is so important isyou need to do what you love.

(49:20):
And I'm not quoting him exactlyhere, but basically you need to
do what you love, find yourniche, and then take that niche
and make money doing it.

Mm-hmm.

so I think so often we say, oh, well, I gotta
do it like that person because,they're successful and I gotta
copy that.
Well, there's probably somebodydoing it just like you want to
do it.
You just haven't seen them orfound them yet.

Mm.

you're the first, but that's okay.
You can be the first too.
Right?
But the whole point I'm gettingat is, is do something that you
absolutely love doing and thenfind ways of making money doing
it.
Don't do it the opposite.
Don't say, okay, I'm gonna gomake money and then I'm gonna
just change my style and do ithowever, because this is the way
I'm making money.
That's not gonna be fun.
Like that's gonna be.

(50:03):
Yeah, I

Hard.

that.
Yeah.
Right.
I mean, then it feels like workevery single time.
Whereas if you're doingsomething that you love and then
you find the way to make themoney doing it, which is what
Gary V talks about all the time,it's like then you're actually
gonna enjoy it for the rest ofyour life.
And I think oftentimes we seethose people.
You know what?
You know what's crazy isoftentimes we see people and we
think, oh, they're making tonsof money.
They might not be making tons ofmoney.

(50:26):
They might be

Right.
Yeah.

we don't even realize it.
We just immediately say, ohyeah, that person's doing
incredible.
And they're, you know, they'regetting a thousand likes on
their photos, so they must bemaking tons of money.
And that, that, that's notnecessarily the case.
And so, again, do what you love.
and I think that wholecreativity part of it, it's like
you're not gonna enjoy your workif it's not the type of work you
like to do.

Yeah, Gary V is, he's a superhuman for sure.
there's a lot there.
to love, right?
love that idea as well.
The doing what it is that youlove.
And I remember from one of his,like first video, or probably
wasn't one of his first videos,but he's like, if you love Ninja
Turtles, like talk about NinjaTurtles all day long.
And I'd,

Yeah.

rather be happy talking about Ninja
Turtles making$50,000 a year,then hate my life at some
corporate job making like$120,000 a year.
And I, I totally agree withthat.
But again, he's a superhuman andcan hustle much harder than I
can and even want to.
But, lots of good stuff there.

It is crazy.
It's crazy how much money peoplecan make doing something and
whatever.
Initially, they, like I, mydaughters, when they were 18, 18
to 19 years old, they actuallystarted a, a little sticker
business right.

Mm-hmm.

machines

Yeah.

and they, put it up on TikTok and then they were
on Etsy and they made more moneythan I did.
in a year selling stickers

What.

on Etsy.
Yeah.
And I was like, I felt like, I'mlike, I need to stop doing what
I'm doing and get into thesticker business.
and it was incredible.
And now unfortunately, they'vegone on, they've gone to college
and they've gone on other jobsand they're studying and so
forth.
And so their business is not,they've kind of let it dwindle
down.
She still does, some stuff onthe side.
One of'em does, and it's crazyto think like, oh, well, why

(52:03):
aren't they still doing it ifthey're making so much money?
But it was just because we gothrough those chapters, right?
Again, that's the hand that wasdealt at that time.
They played it.
Now they're moving on to thenext one, and they're not
looking at someone else's handand being jealous and saying,
oh, I wish I had those cards.
They're just doing what they'redoing with what they have at
that moment.
And at that moment, for themdoing stickers was the money
that they were making and theywere able to put it towards

(52:23):
college.
And yeah.
So it's funny, you can makemoney doing anything and if it's
making crazy, weird photographsthat you think only you will
like, well do it.
And then, you'll find a way tomake money doing it one way or
another.

Perfect.
Perfect.
Well, Trevor, again, I reallywanna be mindful of your time.
Before I let you go, I know thatthere's listeners thinking, I
loved everything that Trevorsaid today.
I wanna know more about him.
I wanna know more about hiswork.
Where can we find out more aboutyou online?

Yeah, so, well, I mentioned, I run the Mag mod
social media, so that's probablymy number one place, magnet
mod.com or excuse me, Instagramis Instagram magnet mod.
you'll see me up there a lot.
I create videos and, that'sactually where that post that,
the devil posts for thephotographers, that's where I
put it.
And so I would encourage peopleeven go back and find that and,
look at some of the comments andsee if those resonate with you.

(53:11):
I told you, Raymond, I'm gonnastart posting every day.
So, my personal Instagram is atTrevor Daly.
Daley is spelled with two Y's,so T-R-E-V-O-R-D-A-Y-L-E-Y.
And then of course, my websiteand everything else is the same
too, trevor daly.com.

All right, today's action item, meaning if
you implement just one thinginto your photography today,
that will move the needleforward.
Let it be this, give a genuinecompliment to three
photographers.
Think about it like.
Photographers have been lookingat the works of other
photographers for more than acentury, you know?
But with the rise of socialmedia, the amount of images that

(53:50):
we look at every single day hasbecome unreal.
And because the algorithm favorsposts that get attention, that
means that we see a lot ofreally, really good photos every
single day.
And when it looks like our feedis just full of everyone else
who's creating fantastic work.
We now see the images of othersmore as confirmation of just how

(54:12):
large the technical gap is.
And in the past we would look atthe works of others for
inspiration and for education.
We can still do that though.
So today, rather than scrollingpast photos, I want you to
comment a genuine compliment onat least three photos.
Then well just notice how itfeels.

(54:32):
Do you feel better when youscroll past three fantastic
photos, or do you feel betterwhen you tell the photographer
how great that photo is?
And if you feel better when youleave that comment on another
photographer's work, why stopthere?
Find three more compliments toleave.
Rewire the brain for inspirationrather than comparison.

(54:53):
That's it for today.
Until next time, remember, themore that you shoot today, the
better of a photographer you'llbe tomorrow.

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