Episode Transcript
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raymond-hatfield_3_06-18-202 (00:02):
We
kid ourselves, we say that it's
our lack of gear.
That is the reason why we don'tinvest more of ourselves into
creating great images.
But I think if we're speakingcandidly here, you know that
that's not really the case.
Hey, welcome to the BeginnerPhotography podcast.
I'm your host, Raymond Hadfield.
(00:22):
And today, well, I'm gonna sharesomething that every
photographer knows, but weabsolutely hate to admit
something that is sad but true,something that we will never
tell our spouses, and we willactually openly lie about it
when talking to otherphotographers.
But first, the BeginnerPhotography Podcast is brought
to you by Cloud Spot.
(00:44):
If you're a photographer and youhaven't signed up for Cloud Spot
yet, I honestly dunno whatyou're waiting for.
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Clouds Spott has the toolsdesigned to help you as a
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Like I know that that sounds,cliche, but honestly like from
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(01:06):
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Now let me ask you a quickquestion.
(01:50):
Have you ever stared at thatbrand new camera online or,
maybe you were on YouTube and avideo popped up at this new
camera review and you're like,wait a second, what is this
camera?
You watch it and of course, likeit's engaging, it's fun.
all the photos that they'reshowing are just jaw dropping
and like, incredible.
And you think to yourself,where's this been all my life?
(02:11):
if I just had that, then myphotos would finally look the
way that I want them to.
Oh, you have?
Yeah.
Well, guess what?
Me too.
I've definitely been there.
For me, I would say that it'sless about like, dedicated
photography cameras.
I think I'm gonna be buried withmy Fuji X Pro two.
I don't know.
(02:31):
But, for me again, it's more solike action cameras.
So things like GoPro.
So the Insta 360, go series, orthe DGI, Osmo pocket camera or
the X four, the 360 camera,right?
Like I am a bit ashamed to admitthat I own all of those cameras,
and despite that, I still don'tput out a ton of video.
(02:53):
But there's something aboutthese reviews that when you
watch them, or even, you know,listen to them.
Maybe you'll listen to a podcastwhere they're talking about the
newest releases or reading ablog post or, whatever it is.
But it just feels like an entireworld of opportunity opens up
with every new camera that getsreleased.
And it's like, it's not untilyou stop and objectively think,
(03:14):
like, wait a second, the newGoPro, I don't know, 14 is out,
or whatever it is.
It's like, but I felt the exactsame way when the GoPro five was
announced.
It's like, so how is thatpossible?
Because, the world hasn't becomeinsanely better photographers
and I sure haven't as well.
So what's going on here?
So today I just want to help youkind of pump the brakes on that
(03:37):
kind of thinking, because as weknow that just simply it's just
not true.
Maybe you're feeling a certainway about your own camera right
now.
Maybe it's a, quote unquoteentry level camera, and you're
feeling like, ah, I finally hada full frame camera.
It'd be so much better.
But think about how excited youwere when you first got your
camera.
It felt like there was a wholenew world of opportunities that
(03:57):
was available for you to be ableto shoot and create.
And somewhere along the way welost that.
And it feels like a new camerais what's going to fix that,
right?
So today we are talking aboutgear, but again, not exactly in
the way that you would expect.
I'm not gonna be reviewing a newcamera.
I'm not gonna be talking aboutany new cameras.
(04:19):
I feel like that just datespodcasts anyway, so what's the
point?
And I'm not gonna be trying toconvince you to spend any money.
I'm not gonna convince you tospend two grand on a new camera
or you know, where we're attoday.
Even two grand on a point andshoot film camera.
Like the context T two.
Yeah.
I'm looking at you.
I'm looking at you.
I know.
But I want to talk aboutsomething more important, and
(04:40):
that is how everything that youactually need to create great
images, you probably alreadyhave, well, it's probably
already in your hands, andthat's not, hyperbole or
anything.
But I mean quite, quiteliterally.
And it's my deepest hope that bylistening to this episode of the
podcast, you're not gonna wantto go buy a new camera or buy a
(05:03):
new lens.
So if this episode helps saveyou, two grand or whatever, I
will gladly take a finder sphereof 10% or whatever it is.
You can just go ahead and sendme a check or a money order.
I'm not gonna say no.
But the point is like, in allhonesty, I want to prove to you
in this episode that maybe youdon't need to buy something new.
(05:23):
So, to do that, I wanna startwith a quick little story.
If you have been a long timelistener of the podcast, you'll
know that I shot weddings for 10years here in Indianapolis.
And then I left weddings in,well, my last wedding was in
October of 2022.
And if I'm being candid withyou, after leaving weddings, I
felt a bit lost.
There was this thing in the backof my head that was like, what
(05:45):
do you shoot now?
What role is photography gonnaplay in your life?
Here I am at the time, I was aprofessional wedding
photographer and I hosted thispodcast all about photography.
And then you take thephotography part away up from
it.
And now I'm just like this guywho hosts a podcast but isn't a
professional photographer.
And there was a lot of like, Idon't know, imposter syndrome, I
(06:08):
guess you could say.
So I had to figure out somethingto shoot, something to keep me
busy, because in all honesty, Iwant photography to play an
important role in my life.
So I had to figure out what thatwas gonna look like.
So I had this big idea, okay, ifI'm not gonna shoot weddings,
what do I want to do?
I wanna shoot things on my owntime, on my own terms.
(06:30):
And then not for clients, right?
I wanna sell them afterwards.
Well.
That's like stock photography oryou can get into, commercial
photo installations, like largescale commercial photo
installations.
So things that you would see atlike hospitals or, malls or,
business centers or publicparks, things like that.
(06:52):
So what did I do?
I got to work.
I got to work shopping for allthe gear that I would need to be
this fancy new kind ofphotographer.
And right at the top of the listwas a brand new Fuji film, GFX
100 Medium Format camera.
Of course, you know why?
(07:12):
Well, if I was thinking aboutthe images that I wanted to
create, I envision these imagesbeing printed not big, but huge,
like creating an immersivecloseup experience for the
viewers, you know, where theycould interact with, with the
images.
You might even say life size.
So the resolution just had tobe, it had to be, absolutely had
(07:37):
to be incredible.
I needed that GFX 100 mediumformat, huge sensor, ridiculous
resolution.
Right?
A hundred megapixels.
Are you kidding?
And I convinced myself, I'mlike, I convinced myself
wholeheartedly that I need this$7,500 camera body, because it
(08:00):
all starts there, right?
That's what's gonna spark theinspiration.
That's what's gonna get thisthing going.
But deep down, I think I knewthe truth.
No, I did know the truth.
It wasn't, you know, I didn'tthink I knew the truth.
I knew the truth, and that'sbecause I experienced the exact
same thing, I don't know, eightyears earlier when I went from
(08:20):
my crop sensor, Canon 40 Dcamera, shooting weddings to the
full frame Canon five D.
And it didn't change anythingfor me.
Honestly.
My, my images were still,comprised of my style, my
preferences, the images would beof the decisive moments that I
saw.
It's funny though, like whentalking to photographers in
person, they'll say the samething.
(08:41):
When they upgraded a full framethat it didn't really like
change much for them, that ifthey knew what their style was,
it's still the exact same styleregardless of crop, full frame,
medium format, whatever.
It's, but they would say that itdidn't change anything for them,
except that it made them feelmore professional at the time.
But image quality wise exactlythe same.
(09:03):
And there's no way that, I'mgonna tell my spouse that.
It's like, wait a second, youhad a camera and then you spent
how much on a camera and yourphotos aren't any better.
I'm like, no, no, no, no, no,no.
I'm, I'm keeping that to myself.
But the root of the problem wasthat I was just simply in a
creative rut.
Again, after leaving weddings, Ijust wasn't shooting much.
I didn't have the bookings.
I was, don't know, withdrawing,if you will, you know, from
(09:25):
creative expression at weddings,you got like eight hours, 10
hours to dedicate to shooting.
And in that time you can getbored and when you're bored,
your brain will start racing andcoming up with all these new and
different and fun ideas, andthen you're gonna capture
something incredible, right?
When that's just taken away fromyou, you feel estranged.
(09:47):
So anyway, the camera wasn't theissue.
The real issue was that I justwasn't getting out and, and
shooting as much as I should.
And so I am, so incredibly happythat I did not buy the GFX 100,
not because it's not a greatcamera.
I'm sure that it is as great asit may be.
At the time, I just did not needit, and I would still say that
(10:10):
today I do not need it.
I guess, the analogy that Icould come up with here is that
it's like, buying a new pair ofrunning shoes, right?
You spin the extra,$50 on thefancier ones that, say that
they're faster and that they'relighter and that they're gonna
make you run faster.
but if you never actually go onthat jog, right?
I mean, they don't make you goon a jog.
(10:30):
The shoes don't make you jog.
We have to get out and jog.
We think of the gear though, as,as a solution, when it's really
just the easiest thing to blame.
And I think that that's what Imean.
I'm gonna put on my tinfoil hathere.
Like that is what camera makersare selling us, is that their
camera is a solution to ourproblems because that's the
(10:51):
easiest way to connect the dotsof, oh, okay, now I see that I
need to buy this thing.
For me, the problem that Ithought that I had was that I
don't have the equipment to beable to create these, large life
size, immersive images in thesolution was something with
incredible amounts of resolutionbeing, this medium format
camera, when, if I think aboutit objectively, I mean, I
(11:14):
remember being a kid in the,early nineties in the mall,
seeing the types of ins,installations that I'm,
imagining here that I'm thinkingabout doing.
And those would've just beenshot on, well, probably medium
format film, but like,regardless, like the scanning
technology, the printingtechnology was nowhere where
it's at today, and they werestill able to do it just fine.
(11:36):
So it's not that like, wow,today we have finally reached
the pinnacle of technologicaladvancement that I can finally
start being the photographerthat I've always dreamed of
being.
That's just not the case.
You know, we kid ourselves, wesay that it's our lack of gear.
That is the reason why we don'tinvest more of ourselves into
(11:57):
creating great images.
But I think if we're speakingcandidly here, you know that
that's not really the case.
So then if that's not the case,right, if camera gear, new gear,
fancy stuff is not the thingthat you need to create
(12:18):
incredible images.
Then that begs the question ofwhat actually does make a great
image.
So let's play a multiple choice,little question game here.
The question is what makes agood photo?
Is it a, a hundred megapixels B14 stops of dynamic range?
(12:39):
C, the ability to shoot, 30frames a second, or d AI powered
eye detection.
I wonder if I can insert thejeopardy, music here, or if it'd
be like a copyright thing andthen they'd sue me.
So, just imagine it in your headwhile you're trying to come up
with an answer, but.
Okay, there's the buzzer.
The answer is nope.
(13:01):
The answer is none of that.
You can take a great photo withfar less than a hundred
megapixels.
14 stops of dynamic range islike incredible, but you don't
need it.
Film doesn't have that, uh, 30frames a second burst rate when
taking photos.
Like, what are you shooting inthe Olympics?
And then like, AI powered eyedetection.
You want that thing to misfireand not take a photo when you're
(13:22):
ready for the decisive moment.
Like, no thanks, no thanks.
None of those things arerequired to take a great photo,
and yet they're all like, at thetop of everybody's lists, So if
those, again, aren't the thingsthat are required to take a
great photo, like what are thethings that are required?
What are the ingredients of agreat image?
(13:43):
Okay, let's break it down.
It is four things.
Okay?
It is moment you've heard me saythis moment matters most.
It is light, it is composition,and it is your exposure.
That's it.
Moment, light, composition,exposure, those are the only
things that you need to take agreat photo, and if your photo
(14:06):
is lacking for some reason, oneof those things, if you improve
on that, your photo will getbetter.
I promise you, nobody looks at aphoto and says like, wow, you
must have shot this at 30 framesper second.
I mean, maybe again, if you'reshooting sports or whatever, but
like that doesn't go into thephoto.
You know what I mean?
Your camera's like a toaster.
(14:27):
You put in the ingredients,right?
The bread, which is yoursettings, your timing, your
creative eye, and then you setthe dial, and then what pops out
is the result, like it did thething, it turned the bread into
toast, but you picked out thebread, you decided how long it's
gonna be in there.
You decided which bay it's gonnabe in because you know that one,
you know, gets hotter than theother is more consistent than
(14:50):
the other or whatever it is.
But like you did that, you didthat.
The camera doesn't make themagic.
It's you.
If you can control your ISO,your aperture, your shutter
speed, then congratulationsbecause you got everything that
you need.
Maybe you're shaking your head,you're like, oh my gosh, yes,
that's right.
If I think about all my favoritephotos, it's because it had a
(15:11):
great moment.
The light was amazing.
I had a really cool compositionwhere like, I nailed my
exposure.
When you think about all yourfavorite photos, that's probably
what you're thinking of righthere.
So then the inquisitive mind maybe thinking, well then wait a
second.
Why aren't we all just shootinglike entry-level cameras, that
you can get for like, I dunno,$400 at Costco or whatever.
It's, yeah, great question.
(15:31):
Don't get me wrong.
Okay.
New cameras.
They're nice.
They're like really nice.
They have incredible auto focus.
They have like these big,bright, high resolution screens.
The battery life is incredible.
The shutter is silent.
Oh my gosh.
The first wedding, the.
I shot, I remember how quiet theceremony was, and every time I
(15:55):
would take a photo, I was sohyper aware of how loud the
shutter slap of my Canon 40 Dwas.
And like, it's not even known aslike a loud camera, but like,
again, cameras are gettingbetter and better.
They're getting better andbetter, all of that.
But all of those things, I wouldjust simply consider them as
quality of life improvements.
They don't go into the image,they don't help your image be
(16:18):
more compelling, be morebeautiful.
They just help you to achieveyour result a bit easier.
And that's it.
It's not a huge solution.
It's just like, yeah, a bit ofan improvement here.
Sweet.
And again, there's nothing wrongwith that just because I love my
Fuji Ex Pro two probably, and Isaid that I was gonna be buried
with, it probably means then I'mgonna have it for a long time,
(16:40):
but it doesn't mean that it'sgonna be the last camera that I
own.
I'll probably upgrade at somepoint when I feel like it, but
when I do, it's not gonna bebecause the camera stopped
making incredible images.
It's gonna be because I wouldlike some quality of life
improvements in a camera.
So unless you are feeling reallygood about how you, or I guess
(17:02):
your ability to see light, tocompose thoughtfully, to expose
correctly, to see the moment,then all of those things are not
going to help improve thequality of your photos.
It's not gonna do it unless youalready know photography.
It's like, I don't know how manypeople are gonna get this
reference, but like, it's likedriving a Kunta to the grocery
(17:24):
store instead of a Corolla.
Like is it more fun?
Yeah.
Is it super powerful?
Of course it is.
But I mean, you're still justkind of picking up bread and
milking eggs.
So was it worth it?
Like, did you need it?
Did you need to take thesupercar to the grocery store?
No, you didn't.
You are still able to do theexact same thing.
(17:45):
Bring home the milk, bring homethe bread, bring home the eggs
in the Corolla at a much, muchmore reasonable price point.
So again, just as a reminder,like the gear.
The gear is never gonna inspireyou, it's the shooting that is
going to inspire you.
We feel like we have all thesegreat ideas before we even get
started in something.
(18:06):
I mean, I've just realized thisabout myself.
All of the incredible ideas thatI have for photos, at least what
I feel are incredible ideas forphotos, are predicated on a
piece of gear.
And maybe that's because I likethings compartmentalized.
I have a camera that I wouldshoot for weddings.
I have a camera that I wouldshoot for personal work.
I had a, the GoPro that I used,I would take.
(18:28):
If it was ever gonna be wet,somewhere like that would be the
type of image.
So it's like, I would always putmy cameras into these little
boxes.
So whenever I see this, not anew style of photography, but
something that I want to try orget into, almost my first
reaction is like, oh like whatcamera would be best for that?
Like, oh, you can only captureit with that type of camera.
(18:50):
So another example is like, ohman, I can't believe I'm saying
this is like, recently I've beenlooking into buying an intrepid
camera, which if you don't know,is a four by five film camera.
Like, think old school, like 18hundreds.
You put the blanket over yourhead and you compose the image
and then you, take a shot.
Why?
Because, you can do six by 17wide panoramic photography on
(19:11):
there.
And that just seems so cool, youknow, on film.
Like it's this actual thing andit's a relatively cheap camera
too, but like, again, my headgoes to the gear more so than
being able to get the resultwith whatever gear that I
currently have.
(19:31):
And I, I told you earlier, youknow, I have all those action
cameras.
The, the GoPros, so many GoPros,the Insta 360 go three s, the X
4 360 camera.
The DJI Osmo Pocket three.
And you know, the thing is thatthey're all great.
They're all like really, reallygreat.
I like them all.
They are fantastic cameras.
And when the UPS driver shows upto the house with that new
(19:55):
package, I get so excited.
I will track it like the daybefore.
What time is it gonna get here?
I'm gonna like, I get soexcited, I rip it open.
It's this huge hit of dopamineto just like hold it in your
hands for the first time.
you know, I'm imagining just allthe new types of images that I'm
gonna be able to create withthis brand new camera.
And, in a weird way, it evenfeels like you are progressing
(20:20):
in your photography.
Like you're growing into thisrole.
Like you've invested in yourselfand now it's finally about to
pay off, you know, somethinglike that which that sounds,
ridiculous, you know, saying itout loud, but it does feel like
that there's this element ofexcitement, and newness, but
when you open it up, you gottafirst do the software update of
course'cause that's the worldthat we live in now.
(20:40):
And then, you take a few shotsand you take it with you on a
trip and, it does fine.
And then you realize, you'relike, oh, wait a second.
I'm still capturing the exactsame images.
I'm not taking any differentphotos.
They're still exactly the samewith just a different package.
You know, no crazy new shots.
Nothing that I saw in those hypevideos.
(21:02):
No immediate superpowersunlocked with this new camera.
It's still the same photos, justa different camera, so the
excitement kind of, it wearsoff.
And, again, while it's a totallyfine camera, like no complaints,
it's like you find that it justsits in your bag probably a
little bit more than you thoughtthat it would.
And when that happens, well,you're not doing anything for
(21:27):
your photography.
If your camera sits in your bag,you're not growing as a
photographer.
If you're not taking any photos,how are you supposed to grow
your skills as a photographer?
It's not doing anything for you.
So here is my recommendation fortoday, because maybe you're
thinking to yourself, oh mygosh, Raymond, I am in the exact
same spot right now.
I got this, I don't know, lensthat I bought.
(21:48):
I bought this camera orsomething, and, I thought that
it was gonna change everythingfor me and it didn't, or vice
versa.
You're thinking, oh yeah, butthere's all these great photos
that I want to take, but I needthis amazing camera.
To be able to do that, I needthe faster auto focus.
I need, you know, all thesethings.
I gotta go full frame, I gottabe able to do that, to take
these photos.
(22:09):
So you're just kind of notshooting with the camera that
you currently have.
Well, here's my recommendationfor you.
It's a simple one, but it's notnecessarily easy.
And I want you to go on a datewith your camera.
Plan a little camera date.
Get dressed up.
Get your camera dressed up.
No, I'm just kidding.
(22:30):
But seriously, take your camerasomewhere new.
Take your camera to a park, takeyour camera to a coffee shop.
Somewhere you've never been.
Take it to a local event like,well, it's summertime.
Take it to a fair, take it to acollege football game, softball
game.
Take it to the StrawberryFestival.
You know, whatever it is.
Even if it's just your backyard.
Even if it's just your backyard,just go out and shoot for fun,
(22:52):
right?
Just go out and have some fun.
Try to have a good time, If youhave a least used piece of gear,
use that, try to force yourselfto do something just a little
bit different.
Turn off the screen.
Don't look at the screen at all.
You know, shoot old school.
Don't chimp, just look throughthe viewfinder, take the photo
and it is what it is, Try togive yourself some weird
(23:14):
challenge, like only reflectionsor only one color.
I don't know.
Come up with something, giveyourself a challenge, and I
think that you're gonna besurprised at how good it feels
to just play with your cameraagain.
It's fun, it's exciting, there'sno pressure to take these works
of art.
(23:34):
Sometimes you feel that pressurewhen you're out shooting.
You're like, I don't have a lotof time.
I gotta make this time worth it.
I better come home with a pieceof fricking art, but here, I
want there to be no pressure.
There's no pressure to evenshare these photos.
There's no pressure to doanything but simply press the
shutter button and that's it.
That's all that I want you to doand have the most fun within
(23:57):
that.
But now, just, just outside ofthat, right?
If you're thinking, okay, great.
I have a, like a, I don't know,disposable camera.
I can go out and have fun withthat.
Fantastic.
Yes, please do that.
If a disposable camera's gonnagive you the most amount of fun
with photography, please go dothat.
But if you're thinking, okay.
I like this idea.
I want to go out on this cameradate.
(24:18):
You want to increase yourskills, right?
You want to, at the end of theday, get better at photography.
What are the sorts of thingsthat you should be focusing on
to build your skills as aphotographer?
All right.
Remember the four things, thefour ingredients that I gave you
earlier to, what it takes tomake a great photo?
(24:38):
Well, guess what?
It's the exact same thing.
Number one, it's the exposuretriangle.
Learn to shoot in manual mode,controlling your ISO, your
shutter speed, your aperturemaster those, and you're gonna
feel so free to shoot in anycondition with any camera,
honestly, like those settingsdon't change.
(24:59):
Iso, aperture, shutter speed arethe same with every camera ever.
So therefore you learn how tocontrol in manual, you're gonna
be able to shoot with any cameraever, and then I think that's
when you'll truly understandlike, oh, wait a second.
If I'm in control of the image,then the camera doesn't really
matter.
So, ingredient number two,right?
(25:21):
Thing number two to work on islight.
Start noticing where light iscoming from.
What is the quality of light?
Is it hard light?
Is it soft light?
Is it directional light?
Is it back light?
Light changes everything.
And if you need help, I mean,like, look it up.
Ingredient number three iscomposition.
This is where I believe thatyour voice as a photographer
(25:44):
really starts to shine anddoesn't even matter if you're
shooting a manual or not.
Like it's just how you composeyour image.
It's how you use things likeleading lines or framing or
contrast rule of thirds, all ofit just to bring your viewers
attention to the subject thatyou want them to look at, that's
all that it is.
You can do that with a cellphone.
And lastly, it's moment, here'sthe thing about cameras, and
(26:08):
here's the thing about gear.
It's that it can't predictmoment.
Your camera cannot tell whenyour kid is about to burst into
laughter.
Your camera doesn't know whenthe light suddenly hits your
subject just right as they'relike walking through a doorway,
capturing moments is beingpresent.
(26:30):
It's being a human.
It means watching the world.
It means waiting, and sometimesit means shooting through a
bunch of nothing to get that oneframe that feels alive.
Seriously.
There's a lot of time spent toget to the one frame.
The moment is the heartbeat of atruly great photo.
I believe that, it's notresolution, it's not sharpness.
(26:52):
I believe that if I captured thebest moment possible on a cell
phone, it could still be blownup huge, and it would be enjoyed
just as much as if it was shotwith a hundred megapixels and
it's the sharpest photo in theentire world.
But none of those things requirea new gear, Learning to shoot
manual learning to see lightlearning how to compose your
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images, learning how to seemoment.
None of those things require newgear.
You can do every single one ofthose things with the gear that
you currently have that is justsitting in your drawer or your
desk, or your shelf or yourpurse at home.
That's all that you need.
So while it doesn't require newgear.
It does require you to shootwith intention and have a little
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bit of patience.
So there you go.
This week's challenge for you,right?
If you've been listening, yougot some homework to do, I want
you to grab maybe your leastused lens or, maybe a camera or
something that you bought thatyou just like either doesn't
work for you like you thoughtthat it was going to, or, just
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use your camera despite havingthese reservations thinking that
you need newer gear.
Okay?
Pick it up and just go on a 20minute, camera date real quick.
20 minutes, go on a walk, go inyour backyard, go to that
strawberry festival.
I'm not even like a huge fan ofstrawberries, but that sounds
like really good right now.
Maybe just'cause it's summer.
And then you shoot with onlythat setup.
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Again, no pressure, no pressureat all.
No new gear.
No, upgrades.
It's just you, your camera, andsome time to play.
You know, may, maybe it's yourkid lens.
May maybe you bought a, a nifty50.
go back and use your kit lens.
Why not?
Whatever it is, just use it.
I want you to fall back in lovewith photography and do so with
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the gear that you got causeagain, at the end of the day,
the camera does not create thephotographer creates.
The paintbrush didn't make theMona Lisa, Leonardo da Vinci
painted the Mona Lisa with apaintbrush.
Your camera's not gonna createan incredible photo.
You're gonna create anincredible photo with the camera
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that you got.
So don't wait for the nextfirmware update or the next big
camera release to feel excitedabout photography again,
seriously, you don't need abetter camera.
You just need to shoot.
And on that note, remember, themore that you shoot today, the
better of a photographer youwill be tomorrow.
Get out there, shoot and talksoon,