The Value of Hands on Learning In Person with Cris Duncan

Episode Transcript
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Cris Duncan (00:01):
I think starting out alone is fine watch some
YouTube videos, read somemagazine, listen to some things,
maybe go to a conference and sitin the back of the room for 90
minutes.
But that's only gonna take youso far, think when you put
yourself into a group that allhas the common goal, you're
gonna succeed.

Raymond Hatfield (00:19):
Hey, welcome to the Beginner Photography
Podcast, brought to you byClouds Spot.
I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield,and today we are chatting with
four time guest and new directorof the Texas School of
Professional Photography, ChrisDuncan, about why nothing beats
learning a new skill in person.
But first, did you know that 70%of people abandoned their online

(00:41):
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(01:03):
So, as I mentioned earlier,Chris has been on the podcast a
number of times, talking aboutand, teaching about light.
And he does so in a way that issuper easy to understand so much
so that I still get emails todayfrom listeners saying how much
they pick up from our chats.
Well, Chris is the newlyappointed director of the Texas

(01:23):
School of ProfessionalPhotography.
And despite its name, it's notlike a, fall through spring type
of school.
It's more of a one weekintensive, classroom setting
where students can come and godeep into learning a photography
topic or technique so that whenthey leave they are, not only do

(01:43):
they fully understand whateverthat topic or technique is, but
they have also worked throughit.
And any issues that, couldpotentially come up with the
teacher by their side and nowthey're ready to tackle it in
the real world.
Really cool stuff.
I've met, Chris in person two orthree times at you know, the
various imaging USA events that,I've attended over the years and

(02:06):
I gotta say he is, in person.
So kind and honestly, you cantell that he has this real
desire to help build up thephotography community as a
whole.
And I don't know, I think thatwe need more people like him in
the industry, and I'm glad thathe's in a position to help so
many photographers to grow.
Chris also wanted me to remindyou that the next Texas school

(02:28):
event runs from April 26th toMay 1st, 2026.
So if you're interested, checkit out.
With that, let's go ahead andget on into today's interview.
So usually my first question foryou is, when did you know that
photography was gonna play animportant role in your life?
But Chris, you've kind of beenon the podcast a number of

(02:48):
times.
I've got that answer for you.
And anybody who wants to knowcan go back and listen.
So my new first question for youtoday is that, Well, because
you've been on the podcast anumber of times, we often talk
about light, right?
And light is a topic that notonly are you very familiar with,
but I think just the way thatyou explain light, the way that
you talk about the concepts, itreally relates with listeners
very well.

(03:09):
So again, I'm very excited tochat with you today.
but before we get into today'stopic, can you kind of give us
like this 30,000 foot overviewof who you are and what brought
you to the podcast?

Sure.
My name's, Chris Duncan.
I'm a studio owner in Lubbock,Texas.
This has been our, our careerand our job since 2004.
So we're in 20, over 20 years,which is sometimes when you

Wild.

it's hard to believe.
You know, we've done everythingfrom weddings to commercial
jobs, high school, seniors,families, photographs, a couple
of presidents.
But right now we really focuson, kind of, I like to call it a
concierge, family portraitexperience.
No.

And what exactly does that mean for those
who are questionable?

Just a little more, more attention.
I think maybe when you think ofgonna a hotel ver a concierge
versus a normal staff person.
My wife, if she was here, she'dequate it, like, if you were
gonna buy furniture or curtainsor something for your home, many
people would hire a designer.
They might consult some otherdesign magazines or to make sure

(04:12):
it's curated.
We view a family portrait shouldreside in the home just like any
other piece of artwork wouldtoo, or furnishings.
So just wanna make sure we'rematching the client's
personality.
The colors go good with theirskin tones.
It goes good in the spacethey've picked out for it in
their home and doing all thatwhile staying true to who that
person is.
So.

So this is more than just somebody contacts
you and says, Hey, let's do aphoto shoot.
You're like helping them figureout what clothes to wear and
where the finished artwork isgonna go on their walls.
Is that right?

Absolutely.
Yep.

Wow.
Okay.
I love that.
And you've been doing that for20 years.
That is amazing.
and Lubbock is in, is it WestTexas?
Is that right?

Yes.
It's in West Texas, in thepanhandle.

So, like I said, light is one of those
things that you're very wellknown for.
And every time I have aconversation with you, I tend to
get a number of emails, a numberof, comments on, in our Facebook
group, saying, Hey, that reallyhelped me to achieve this thing.
So again, I'm really excited forour chat today because, not only
are you able to share things, Ithink in a way that many
beginners.
find, easy to understand.

(05:15):
And I think that just comes fromyour experience having done this
for 20 plus years.
Like, this isn't a new conceptthat you're trying to explain,
for the first time.
But like you've done thisbefore.
So you recently got a new role,which you reached out and you
told me at the, Texas School ofProfessional Photography.
First of all, congratulations.
That's huge.
Tell me what this means and, forthose who are listening who

(05:36):
don't know, what is the TexasSchool of Professional
Photography?

Okay.
Well, First of all, what thatmeans is that I'm working more
now than I was before.

That's a good thing sometimes.
Yeah.

some new responsibilities.
I'm very excited about it.
I was an instructor at the TexasSchool of Professional
Photography for 10 years.
I'm a volunteer and a studentfor years before that, so it's a
place that I'm very familiarwith.
I realize some of your listenersmay not be.
The Texas School ProfessionalPhotography is a week long event
held in the spring.
It's in Addison, Texas, which wewould just call Dallas for, just

(06:11):
outside of Dallas.
And it's the fourth largestphotography event in the
country.
It's the largest hands-on eventin the country.
Close to 800 students show up.
We have over 30 unique classes.
A nice trade show, there, butwhat makes it unique to other
photography, maybe conferences,is it's not a conference you

(06:33):
don't bounce from.
Oh, I wanna learn from thisperson and I wanna learn a
little bit from this person andI wanna learn a little bit from
this person.
And you kind of, you know, youkinda get this popcorn approach
at other conferences like Imageand USA or Shutter Fest or
something like that.
Where at Texas School you selectan instructor.
Just think of going to college.

(06:54):
Like, I want this instructor andthis is my course for the week.
And so it's a deep dive intothat either.
What you wanna learn from thatinstructor.
There are concepts, maybethey're teaching a foundational
skill like lighting, or somebusiness marketing.
But you're really in a smallclass environment, less than 30
students, deep diving, intensivework into that class.

(07:16):
So.

Why do you think, getting together in
person is, is the way to go?
Because like, we kinda live inthis instant world where if, you
know, at 3:00 AM I decide Iwanna learn how to light
corporate headshots or, posewedding couples like I.
Go to YouTube and figure thatout.
But, you've obviously gone deepinto the world of in-person

(07:41):
education.
Why, why is that so important?

Well, for two I've, I think there's value in going
to YouTube or reading a magazinearticle or even listening to a
podcast to get some concepts.
Don't discount that at all.
But what you don't get in thatis the practice.
You don't get the feedback.
You don't get the opportunity tofail know you're failing and
know why you're failing.

(08:06):
So then if it happens again, youcan say, oh, this is where I
missed, or this is where I fellshort.
you know, I, I love to golf andso, I've taken enough golf
lessons that if I hit a slice, Iknow why I hit a slice.
Doesn't mean I can always nothit a slice, I've had that
personal instruction and thatfeedback to say, this is what's

(08:28):
causing it.
So now I can work on, try to notcause that again.
So if I'm always having blownout highlights or if my, I'm
having stuff that's not infocus, my depth of field isn't
right.
Once I'm taught that and when Ihave that problem in front of
me.
I'm like, oh, now I know how tofix it.
And so I think having thatfeedback.
I like to say Texas School is asafe place to fail'cause

(08:49):
everybody there, I mean, whetheryou believe it or not, everybody
there is in the same boat.
They're all in the same place.
They're all wanting to go onestep farther than they came.
So

That's a good place to be then.
That is a very good place to be.
I know sometimes like I've takenclasses before and it can be
scary I think at first, right?
Because, one, you don't wanna bethe dumbest person in the room.
You don't want to be the personwho shows up and everybody has
professional level gear andmaybe you're, newer into your
journey.
so is Texas School ofPhotography is this event, open

(09:22):
to everybody because it says, Imean, in the name it's Texas
School of ProfessionalPhotography.
So is it focused on business ortechniques as well?

I would say, you know, we celebrated our 50th
year in 2025, so we're goinginto our 51st year.
50 years ago, professionalphotography might have meant
something different than it doesnow.
Back then it was all studiowork, you know, you

Hmm.

evolved and what the client expects has evolved.
But what I think hasn't reallychanged is what people consider
professional level photography.
Doesn't mean it has to be yourcareer, but the work you produce
is professional level.

I see.
Ah, that makes sense.

So we even, we have classes for beginners that.
maybe this is a side gig forthem and they wanna just get
better at photography beforethey try to make it.
Be more substantial than theirincome.
We have some that they may betheir second career.
They've got early retirementfrom the military or law
enforcement or civil service,and they still got a lot of life

(10:22):
in'em, and they want to, andthey love photography.
we've got some that are older intheir journey.
but what they all have incommon, whether, and it's not
making money, it's not having abusiness.
There's some people there forthat, but what they all want to
do is move the ball forward,create great work, be proud of
the work they create TexasSchool provides that.

I love that.
So, tell me more about how itworks'cause I've never been as
well, but, it sounds veryinteresting.
I love this idea of going deeperin with one educator instead of,
meeting with a bunch of people.
Because although I do like theidea of going to a conference
and learning a little bit of alot of things just to expand the
mind.
If I have a very specificproblem that I'm trying to

(11:04):
solve, I wanna go deeper ratherthan wider.
And it sounds like that'sexactly what this is.
So how would you suggestapproaching, of finding or
attending?
Do you find a, instructor whohas a series of classes that you
attend?
Or is it, is it one, technicalor business element and then you
just spend the whole timefocused on that?

Well, each instructor has the freedom to
craft their class in the waythat they best see fit.
When I taught there for 10years, as you mentioned, I like
to teach lighting.
I feel very versed in lightingand can explain it well.
And so we just dove right intolighting, learning, studio
lighting with single andmultiple lights balancing.
Its outdoor.
So it was all technically drivenaround using light to create a

(11:48):
compelling image.
side is other classes might bemore on marketing or business
for that business person thatmaybe they're, they started out,
but they're in that growthjourney and they feel like
they've stalled and they justneed to continue to grow.
So we have created for TexasSchool coming up, you can go to
Texas school.org and see all theinstructors we have and read
their class descriptions andfind out the best fit for you.

(12:11):
But we kinda have four bigbuckets, or four big tracks.
The first one is digitalpost-production.
and this has classes that arelearning Lightroom, beginning to
learn Photoshop to advancecompositing techniques.
painting in Photoshop.
we have what we call successfulstudios.
And these classes are a mixtureof some technical areas, some

(12:34):
business areas.
It might be marketing, it couldbe story branding, maybe a new
product you want to offer,elevating a product in your
studio.
something like that.
That's our successful studiosbucket.
usually where you find thepeople that have been doing it
for a while as a business andthey're like.
Okay, I've gotta keep mybusiness going.
They kind of fall into that.

(12:55):
We have lighting and cameraskills.
This is exactly what it soundslike.
This is very foundational, whereyou get to be a lot of hands-on
working with models, workingwith different gear, learning
different techniques and skills.
And then our last one we callspecialty and technique.
And this is might be like, well,I really like light painting.
The whole class is focused onlight painting.

(13:16):
We have a class that's on webdesign and branding, SEO.
So it's very focused on workingthrough with photo biz.
You're gonna have a eithercomplete a website, rebuild it,
or start from scratch and builda new website.
So when you leave Texas School,you're ready to do that.
Another specialty might befocusing just in on like volume
or sports photography.

Hmm.

It's kind of more niche.
And so those big four tracks allhave seven to nine instructors
in them.
That's how I encourage people topick out a place like that.
And I'll say all of ourinstructors are very open or
open.
You can call and ask them, Hey,tell me more about your class.

Oh, that's cool.
That's gotta be scary.
So your number is just out theresomewhere People can call and,
and ask.

Well, it's usually an email but yeah.

That's a little bit safer for sure.
Yeah.
Tell me about, as an educator,what does this mean for you?
Because you have the opportunityto share your knowledge

Mm-hmm.

YouTube to potentially millions of people,
but instead, by choosing toteach in person, you're cutting
that number down from hundredsof thousands to a select few.
What does that mean in terms ofbeing able to teach people?

Well, I think they're both valid.
I can only speak for myself andI think this goes for the people
that choose to speak at TexasSchool'cause a lot of'em could
make more money doing their ownthing.
And some of'em have their ownthing, but they come to Texas
school.
It's because that connectionthey make the student.
And I don't wanna even sayinstructor student.

(14:48):
it's not a hierarchalrelationship.
We're an equal relationship.
But I don't know, Raymond, Imean, you have children, there's
something about it when youtaught them to ride a bike or
fly a kite whatever it is.
When they finally understand it,there's this like something in
your heart that just explodes.
Because you're so proud of thisperson, you've been guiding
like, are they ever gonna getthere?

(15:08):
And when they do you're like,all this work and effort.
And then you know, one daythey're gonna teach their kid
how to ride a bike or fly akite.
And so for me as an educator,'cause you talked about, oh, you
really good at lighting.
Well, it's been around waybefore me and someone helped me
learn that part of the craft.
And so when I can see someoneelse grasp it and that
frustration falls from theirface and that feeling of being

(15:31):
lost and their craft just leavestheir body and they're like, I
get it now.
I mean, that's like hitting a300 yard drive.
I mean, that's a rare feeling,you know?

That's funny.
We just watched the second HappyGilmore yesterday, and I'm not
into golf or anything, but, Igot the reference.
There you go.
So, yeah, I would imagine thatbeing able to have that
one-on-one time, over a longerperiod, say a week, is it like,
is it seven days worth ofclasses?
or how long does that work?

It is a Saturday through Friday if you choose to
participate in the whole thing.
We have what we call TexasSchool Saturday, which would
most people would call like apre-con.
It's only a one day class.
We have some larger classes thatare kind of what you would
experience at a conference onSunday.
They're 90 minutes.
There's two of those on Sunday,and then Monday through Friday,

(16:20):
you're with your one instructorfor the week.

Oh, okay.
Yeah, so I mean, I would imaginethat having say five days of
time to really go deep intosomething, correct me if I'm
wrong, is probably thedifference between reading like
the SparkNotes version of a bookversus actually reading the
book.
Whereas like in some of theseconferences that I've been to,
going into even a 90 minuteclass, you think it's gonna be

(16:46):
very intense and you're gonnalearn a ton, but sometimes you
walk away just feeling like.
That was almost just like aYouTube video, like it was very
high level.
It didn't really go deep intoanything.
In fact, now I have morequestions than I did before, and
because the whole thing is setup for somebody to speak at me
rather than with me.
I left, I leave feelingunfulfilled, I suppose.

(17:08):
And you don't want to do that.
So I, yeah, I would imagine thathaving the five days with
somebody to talk with them andshare your experiences and get
those answers is a huge, hugebenefit.
So, tell me from yourperspective as an educator, do
you have a story of somebody whomaybe, they just weren't getting
it and then, you were able tohelp them overcome that?

Oh, there's numerous stories.

Oh, perfect.
You're the perfect person totalk to then.
Yeah.
Okay.

year we would have a student at Texas school, and
our class was pretty intenselighting.
I mean, it was hands-on and itwas technical, and I was using
math and science and all thephysics and all that stuff, and
without fail, one or twostudents were in tears by the
end of the first day.
But the great thing is if theywould've watched a YouTube video

(17:55):
and been in tears, what wouldthey have done?

Continued to be in tears.
Walked away.
Yeah.

nobody there to say, man, come on Raymond, I
know right now this hurts.
I know right now you thinkyou're never, but trust me, if
you'll stick with me, we'regonna get you to the point you
want to be.
And you can put your arm aroundthem if they agree right, you
can pat'em on the back andencourage'em.
and that's what it makes it sospecial that it's that safe

(18:21):
place to fail.
'cause when that happens, it'snot like, oh, look at that
person that's so frustrated.
Everyone's like, oh boy, I'vebeen there.
I remember last year

Yeah,

or whatever the case is.
And so, because we, the worldwants to tell us that we're the
only one going throughsomething, or they're only one
that experiencing this, and noone else, everyone else is
better than me and I'm nevergonna get it.
But the truth is, there's somuch more that brings us
together than separates us.
And in a place like that.
I

that is a good point.

that might do this too, smaller workshops
throughout

you again.

at Texas School, 'cause I've

What is going on here?
Let's see.

is transformational.
There's lots of ways to learn.
There's lots of ways to getinformation, and I think that's
where too many people stop.
So as an educator and as astudent, I feel that comes in
three ways.
The first is just information orjust knowledge, that's just the
facts.
I can get the facts fromwatching a YouTube video and get

(19:17):
it from reading a book.
I can maybe get it fromlistening to a podcast, it's
just information.
Once you get, and even at goingto a big conference where
someone's talking from a stageto a room of 800 people, you're
really just getting information.
Very rarely can you getunderstanding which is this next
level from an event like that.

Mm-hmm.

And so at at a place where you can slow it down
and you can ask questions, youcan get feedback, you can work
through a problem, that's whereyou get understanding.
And I think that's where thingsstart becoming transformational.

Yeah.

And if you get to it, this is probably the
lifelong journey.
The third part of that iswisdom, and that's taking the
knowledge, understanding, andthen being able to use it in a
way that's best suited forwhatever position you're in at
the time.

It's funny.
A few months ago, I did my firstever in-person workshop, right?
So this was the first time wegot together a number of
listeners, and we tried to goover topics and I was teaching
them as well.
And it felt weird because asmuch as these topics are so
familiar to, you and I, camerasettings, like composition,

(20:22):
starting to tell story with yourimages, you don't realize until
you have to regurgitate thatinformation in a way to somebody
who has, you just have to assumeno idea what any of this means.
You realize not only how muchyou know, but how hard it is to
explain sometimes as well.
Right?

Yeah.
Yeah.

So, that's one of the reasons why I don't do
many YouTube videos is because.
I find that I go much deeperwhen I am in person with
somebody and I can answer thosefollow up questions.
Right?
So it almost feels like wheneverI would create a video, it would
only be half information thatwould go out.

(21:03):
It wouldn't be a fullunderstanding of something that
happens.
And to me, it sounds like I wasonly able to get to that first
level, which isn't actuallyimpactful, it's just
informational.
And I think that that's reallyimportant for listeners as well
to understand that while it'spossible to learn something
through a video or a podcastlike this, it's not until you

(21:25):
actually take action and trysomething that you start to gain
that understanding.
That is so important.
So, can you some examples likewhat are some of the just
example classes that studentswould be able to sign up for
this year.
Do you have any on hand bychance?
I know I'm putting you on thespot, not like, yeah, I got a
paper or anything set up.

Well, we have over 30 classes and I'd

Wow.

em all'cause I'm gonna forget somebody.

Just two or three I think would be fine just
to give us an idea.

yeah, they're all listed@texasschool.org.
You can find all of them there.
We have one class.
I'm really excited about it.
Steven Stuckey, he's a newinstructor.
He's doing travel photography

Hmm.

so this is like how to leverage your camera when
you're traveling and even try toturn it into making some money.
That's our specialty track.
He sells his work online and,makes almost six figures every
year selling his

Wow.

It's crazy.
We have John Gress outtaChicago, who some of your
listeners may know John.
He does a lot of YouTubeteaching, a lot of education,
and he is like a lighting geniusand some people might see his
work and say that lighting'sreally advanced.
But what John wants to do isbreak it down and help the
person that's learning how touse strobe and electronic flash
lighting and give them the toolsand then grow off of.

(22:41):
So excited to have John here.
We have Julie Gaylor.
That's kind of like John, justthe female version of John.
Really technical in lighting.
We have Elizabeth Holman that'sgonna be leading the class for a
business person that's maybelike me that's been in business
20 years.
I'm like, what's next for me togrow?
And it's a mastermind class soyou can develop a growth.
The whole idea of her class isdevelop a growth plan, she's

(23:03):
gonna be joined by David Hiltonand Allison Tyler Jones.
And students are gonna createtheir growth plan and then
brainstorm it together andmastermind it together and leave
with a way to grow theirbusiness.

That's a lot.
That's a lot right there.

is coming, focusing on high school senior
photography.
We've got Leroy tme who hasturned a really high-end
portrait business and branchedoff and now does school
portraits and sports teams, morevolume work that he doesn't have
to pull, be the one pushing thebutton.
He can train a staff to do thatso he can take care of this,
commercial photographyarchitectural.

(23:37):
So really,

Yeah, it sounded like you were nervous
about not being able to list all30, but, uh, that sounded pretty
close to 30 right there.
Yeah, I think you got most of'em,

Yeah, so I

so

one out of each track, so,

that was perfect.
So let me ask, this is, rightnow you're on the Beginner
Photography podcast, right?
Some people have only beenshooting, six to 24 months.
Is there space at Texas Schoolfor them?
Yeah.

Absolutely.

What would you suggest for them, do you think?
Should they just jump straightinto, studio business or, should
it be one of the more technicalcourses?

know, I think each student has to make up their own
mind.
One thing that our instructorsare really good at and we've
asked'em to do, is when you readtheir descriptions, we've
broken, they've broken down howmuch their class is gonna be,
post-production, hands-on demo,

Ah.

there's certain, I mean, we might call it beginner,
intermediate, advanced.
There's lots of differentlevels, you know, in your growth
journey.
Just starting out, however youwant to phrase it, that we have
those kind of categories listed.
And so there's classes that arefor all levels.
There's classes that aredefinitely for someone that's at
a more advanced technical levelbut we break that up in the
track.
So you could be really great atpost-production and not be

(24:52):
really solid in your lighting orcamera skills.

Yeah.

So the class breakdown, we'll say this, is
for someone that's advancedpost-production, but not or this
is for someone that is not anadvanced in post-production, but
has these top of lighting cameraskills.
And so,'cause it's very curated,each class is very curated.
We have Steve Kozak there, he'sbeen teaching there for 20

(25:16):
something years and his isalways like learning the basics
of your camera and your flashand your processes.
And so, every year he's full ofbeginners or people just
starting out with the craft.

Wow.

We have Gati Phillips who does an
introduction to Lightroom.
If you've been resisted some ofthe digital technology to, to
make your images better andstuff, you know, he's a great
place to learn some of that.
We've got beginning Photoshopclasses that, I wanna start
working with layers and layermask and maybe some mild
compositing and such instead ofjust contrast and brightness

(25:51):
levels.
So there's definitely a placefor everyone.

it sounds like it.
and I think that that, I hopewill give listeners the
encouragement to, to check itout because I think a lot of
conferences or, yeah, justconferences, right?
Where you're going there tolearn something are more focused
towards, professionals, right?
Because it's easier to sell toprofessionals, right?
They can use it as a write-offor whatever.

(26:16):
And there's not really a lot ofspaces specifically for
beginners or that cater tobeginners.
So it's great to hear that, thatis an offer for sure.
But let me ask about iflisteners know that they're
gonna walk away with learningone thing, right?
Whatever the course, promise is,whether it's learn how to shoot
manual or whatever.
If they know that they're gonnahave five days to focus on that

(26:38):
one thing and they're going towalk away with that.
What are the secondary benefitsof attending like in person
education?
Because I know that there's alot having been myself, but like
now, as talking to somebodywho's the director of this, I
want to hear it from you.
Like, what are the secondarybenefits of attending in-person
workshops?

Well, I think, and this might even be the primary
thing, obviously, I, I think wego because we wanna learn and
grow.
And that happens.
That definitely happens.
But I think you leave withsomething maybe you didn't
expect, and that's, you come inalone, but you leave with a
tribe or with a community or anetwork of friends'cause
everyone in that room has, isafter the same goal.

(27:21):
You're gonna experience the samefrustrations.
You're gonna celebrate the samesuccesses.
And when you do that withlike-minded people, just
relationships form.
And so there's story afterstory.
And this happens at a lot ofevents.
Not just, it's not isolated.
The Texas school, you know,there is story after story about
connections being made andlifelong friendships being made

(27:41):
because they had this, they hadthe same experience and they
experienced it together.
At the, many times people comeback and they become roommates
the next year, you know, to savecosts on their hotel.
They might take the same classagain.
They'll travel there togetherand there's story after story of
that happening.

(28:02):
One thing Texas School has donereally well over its 50 year
history is when the education'sdone.
That's not the end of it.
There's

you mean?

in the evening where you eat together.
We have an opening party that wehave a live band, and there's
dancing and some fun games andgood Texas barbecue.
So there's those social aspectsof it.
The bar and I don't mean barjust like you have to drink, but
just the gathering place in thehotel is always packed.
You've probably experiencedthis, Raymond.

(28:32):
I'm sure some of your listenershave that they've been to a live
event.
Sometimes you can learn as muchtalking from a colleague across
the table that you might havelearned that day in class.

Oh, a hundred percent.

Yeah.

hundred percent.
Yeah.
So I'm gonna push back here,right?
Because, I can hear thelisteners right now in my head
and they're saying, you knowwhat, Raymond?
Like, I wanna learn this thing,right?
You know, I'm not going to makefriends.
Why is that so important?
I understand that it mighthappen, but how is that a
benefit as a photographer?

I think it's a benefit as just a human.
Just to not, not have to dostuff alone.
I think starting out alone againis fine if you're gonna learn,
watch some YouTube videos, readsome magazine, listen to some
things, maybe go to a conferenceand sit in the back of the room
for 90 minutes.
But that's not only gonna takeyou so far, think when you put
yourself into a group that allhas the common goal, you're

(29:29):
gonna succeed.
I think the motivation to try tokeep doing it, if you're the
only one doing it and you'realone doing it, harder.

It is, yeah.

think that's why, I mean, when people buy home gyms
the first week, great and thenit slowly, and then it becomes a
place you put your sheets andyour clothes and it's a laundry
rack, right?
I mean, I've been there too.
I'm like, oh, I like, I want togo, I want a stationary bike.
And you do it for a while andthen you don't ride the bike
anymore.
when I enrolled in a spin classor I enrolled in a workout

(30:03):
class, I'm like, I better go.
Because if I don't, Raymond'sgonna say, why weren't you at
class on Tuesday?

I will.
Yeah.

thinking, I'm not gonna go, but if I don't go,
Chris is gonna say, why aren'tyou?
And so, we grow more when we doit in a community.

Yeah.
I'll be honest, that's one ofthe reasons why I started this
podcast, right?
Like, I got into weddingphotography, felt like, what am
I doing?
Like, am I doing any of this?
Right?
Like, I don't know.
I went to school forcinematography.
I don't know if I'm doing this.
And I just wanted to talk toothers who Had that knowledge
who came before me to, to figureout if, if what I was doing was
completely fraudulent or ifmaybe I was on the right track.

(30:38):
And over the years, I've builtsome incredible relationships.
Just, you and I, you know, we'vemet in person several times at
imaging and, it is somethingthat is fulfilling, and it's not
something that I came into ithoping to get, but I will say
that it has been a fantastic,benefit of, of starting a
podcast and meeting together inperson.
So, let's assume here for amoment that people are listening

(31:01):
and they're thinking, okay, Ihave a very specific problem
that I wanna solve inphotography.
I'm going to look into, solvingit, right?
So they go a Texas school,what's the website?
One more time.

Texas school.org.

Okay, so they go to Texas school.org.
They find themselves as a classthat looks interesting.
They go ahead and enroll.
What's the next step?
Like, what should they be doing?
What should they bring?
How can people make the most outof their experience at Texas
School?

Okay.
Good question.
First of all, I'd encourageanyone that's even considering
going to Texas School to markJanuary 3rd at 11:00 PM Central
their calendar'causeregistration opens at that
minute or

Hmm.

And many of our classes sell out within the
first few seconds becausethey're

Wow.

limited.
Most of'em are around 24 to 27students, and of'em are in
higher demand and they can fillup fast.
So first of all, don't say I'mgonna sit on it and sit on your,
the class you want maydisappear.
So that's one way to make themost outta the experience.
Second would be reallyunderstanding the things on the
description of the classes.
We have intensity level, whichis how much physical activity is

(32:11):
expected of you trying to get inone that really is your skill
level.
I mean, if I go golf or goskiing, I'm not gonna play the
back of the tee box or ski onthe black diamond.
I just, I know that's not whereI am.
And it looks cool, but I knowthat's not right.
So I get, you need to berealistic about where you are.
I think that really helps causeyou definitely don't want a

(32:32):
student to come there and theythink they're more advanced than
they are and they become, theyleave more frustrated.

yeah.

don't want that.
But one thing about, path aboutwhat to bring that's gonna
depend on each class.
And we have amazing instructors,many of them that have taught
there for many years, and Ithink they would come to Texas
School for free.
I wouldn't have to pay'embecause they just love being a
part of this experience, is theyusually put together a Facebook
group and the class meets beforeschool.

(32:59):
And say, these are things youneed to expect.
This is things you should bring.
Some classes will expect you tobring your camera and you'll be
photographing all week.
And some post-production classesyou won't be photographing, but
you need to bring your laptopand your welcome tablet and have
the software installed but ourinstructors are great about
passing all of that along.
So the one thing everyone needsto bring is a great attitude to

(33:20):
learn, and probably a jacket,because hotels in Texas in the
spring can get really cold.

Yeah.
You know what?
I will say, so last year,Imaging was in Dallas, as well.
And, my hotel, yeah, absolutelyfrigid.
And every time I would walk out,my glasses would fog up and I
was like, what is going on here?
This is the worst,

yes.

That is too funny.
okay.
Yeah.
So bring a jacket, bring a lightjacket.
Can I ask, is there a standardas far as like, class size or do
they vary?
What's the average?

The instructor gets to choose.
We have some instructors thatthe concept they're doing, they
wanna make sure that everybodyhas it and they like to have 15
or 16.
Some classes, instructor willtake up to 30.

Wow, that's so relatively a very small group.
Really, really small, learningopportunity.
Wow.

I mean, there's a lot of time for individualized
attention.

I love that.
You said that you've beenteaching there, you've taught at
Texas School for a while.
Have you ever taken any classes,

I have, I was a student for, three or four years
before I became an instructor.
So you want me to list who thoseinstructors were or just.

just like well, I kind of wanna know like,
what was your, obviously youliked the experience because you
continued with it.
You started teaching and now,now you're the director.
But, what do you think thebiggest benefit was to you for
attending?

Validation maybe, is a good word.
Maybe that's a good word.
I don't know of a better word tothink.
When you think you want to getsomewhere and you're not sure if
you're there and you, then yourealize you are there, you've
kind of, you've grown to thatlevel and you're like, again,
it's hard to quantify.
I'm like, oh, understand.
Just that.
I think that's been the biggestthing and we have a lot of

(34:59):
people that return to Texasschool.
I took a couple classes morethan once.
Zig Ziglar, I, your, I know yourlisteners know Zig Ziglar, but
he would have this thing, itsays in times of change, the
learner, will find themselveswell equipped, right?
The learned will be in a worldthat no longer exists.
You have to keep learning andwhere I think some of us, and I

(35:22):
was, I was the same.
I would listen to somebody onceand like, oh yeah, fantastic.
That was just knowledge thatwasn't understanding and I
would, could only grasp thefirst 7% of what they taught, so
I had to refill that, thatknowledge, and then my
understanding would grow alittle bit and then refill it

(35:42):
again and I could grow and growso to me, that's what's exciting
about Texas School is I go fromthat knowledge level to that
understanding level, andeveryone does it in different
leaps based upon how muchknowledge they came in with
beforehand, so,

Yeah, I would imagine, well, that reminds me
of that, I don't know if it's aChinese proverb or whatever, but
it's, that you never step in thesame stream twice.

Mm-hmm.

Because the idea is that when you come back
to that stream, you're acompletely different person.
Right?
And, your perception of it haschanged.
You approach it differently, andyou're gonna learn something
different about it that time.
Or you can never watch the samemovie twice.
You always pick out somethingnew.
And that is, that is soimportant.
You know, I hadn't reallyconsidered the thought that some
people just assume that theyknow what it is that they're

(36:32):
doing and would kind of writeoff going to something like
this.
But, yeah, I mean, I know formyself, just having, as I said,
attended, some conferenceclasses, back in January at
imaging, even though some ofthem didn't go as deep as I had
wanted, they did provide somevalidation to me, letting me
know, okay, I am on the righttrack.
I'm not as lost as I thoughtthat I was.

(36:54):
And I would say that alonesometimes is worth the price of
admission, even if you don'tlearn anything practical in that
moment, because, I don't know,tell me if it's the same for
you, but it almost gives you thego ahead to progress to that
next level.
Like, no, no, you're good withthis.
Now you can go ahead and move onto something new.
Do you feel that way?

oh, I think there's so much value we just in
knowing, okay, I haven't wastedthe last two years of my career
doing everything wrong, youknow?

Yeah, I mean, who doesn't want that?
You know what I mean?
Who would not appreciate, yeah.
Being told that they're doing agood job or that they haven't
wasted their time, that they'redoing the right thing.
And then photography, which isso subjective sometimes.
There's obviously a technicalelement to that, as far as
exposure goes and, lightingratios, as you know.
But a lot of everything else is,is very subjective.

(37:44):
And I think that's what makeslearning photography so hard.
And when we go on YouTube and wewatch these educators who
they're viewing the world froman entirely different
perspective as we are, areteaching us something that maybe
doesn't apply to us necessarily,or we can't wrap our head around
how to apply it is just moreconfusing.
So having a place to be able tospeak in person, walk through

(38:07):
those challenges is so valuable.
So I'm really excited for youChris to be able to go through
this and I'm excited to hearsome of the, students and their
transformations as well.
And, if anybody's listening whois going to Texas School, I
would imagine somebody maybelike Marlinda who will be going
to Texas School this year.
Reach out to me and let me knowkind of your thoughts and

(38:27):
something that you learned aswell.
But, Chris, without having beento Texas School.
I feel like I asked you all thequestions that I wanted to know,
but let me ask you, is thereanything that I didn't ask that
maybe you wanna make sure thatpeople know?

You know, I don't know.
I feel like we've had a reallygreat conversation.
And I don't want this to feellike it's a commercial for Texas
school.
That's just the venue that beingfrom Texas that I learned so
much of my photography from andthen was able to pass that on.
And even as an educator there,you learn a lot just preparing
your class for your students,you know?
So it has been transformationalfor my business.

(39:01):
One thing we're saying now isit's one week, but endless
possibilities but whether yourlisteners can go to Texas
school, or not, I hope they can.
And if any of them want to talkto me on the website, there's a
link.
You can schedule a time to talkto me.
I'm happy to talk to our, ourcustomers.
Make time for that.
If you have questions or shootme an email.
I love talking this withanybody, as you can tell.

(39:24):
But I think whether they can goto Texas school or not, to find
somewhere in your area you canbe around other people that are
like-minded and try to learnsomething.
Maybe you're the person that hasto do it.
Maybe you're the one thatschedules a photo walk and
you're gonna teach some of yourfellow photographers how to

(39:44):
expose for these buildings orthis scenery in front of us and
really create it.
Organize a lunch and y'all cantalk about a marketing plan
that's, that's worked and helpbrainstorm with other creatives
on a marketing plan or aproduct.
Get away from the keyboard, getaway from the screen, Get away
from the earbuds and get, getwith your other fellow creatives

(40:07):
and, you're gonna be better forit.
I hope it's Texas school, but ifnot, I hope you at least make
the effort cause even a group ortwo or three is gonna be much
easier than going alone.

Well, I mean, as the old adage goes, two heads
are better than one.
So, I absolutely believe that.
Chris again, man.
Thank you so much for coming onand sharing, today talking about
the value of in-person educationand talking about Texas School.
Again, I know a lot ofphotographers have probably
heard of it, but maybe theydidn't know a lot about it, and
now you've, you've shared that,you shared where we can find out

(40:38):
more about Texas School.
But one more time, feel free tolet us know where we can do that
or where we can find you online.

Yeah.
Texas school.org is the website.
they can find all theinstructors there.
Our Texas School Saturday, ourPrecon, the list of the trade
show vendors.
All that information, is on thewebsite.
If you wanna follow Texas Schoolthat's on Instagram at TX
school.
And I'm Chris Duncan.
Mine Instagram is CJ Duncan, andif you look for me, I'm Chris

(41:04):
without an H-C-R-I-S.

All right, your action item for today being
if you implement just one thingtoday into your photography, it
will move the needle forward,it's this, find a local photo
buddy.
I know this.
Honestly, this may be thescariest action items that I've
ever shared, but there are somany photographers out there and

(41:28):
I would be willing to bet thatthere are a few of them close to
you.
So join a local photo club.
If you don't know of any, callyour local camera store and see
if they can point you in theright direction.
Search Facebook for any localphoto groups and then attend
one.
See who's there, see who youclick with.
if there's no photo clubs wellperfect opportunity to start

(41:51):
one.
I will say that when I wasshooting weddings full time,
there's this, I don't know,maybe it's this mental thing
that I do where it's like, no, Ican figure this out.
I can figure this out.
Whenever I was struggling withanything, getting clients,
dealing with a situation, justtrying to grow my business in
some way, I can figure it out.
I can figure it out, but whenyou attend these meetings, you
realize, oh, other people arehaving the same problems maybe

(42:13):
that I'm having.
And it's a great place to justchat, feel validated in your
feelings, and then also justkind of brainstorm ways, through
any issues that you might have,so while I haven't been part of
a photo club, I've been a partof many photo events, maybe more
on the professional side, but Ican still vouch for how powerful
and helpful they are.

(42:35):
So again, if there's no clubslocal to you, seriously start
one.
This journey of photography isso much more enjoyable with a
friend, and it doesn't have tobe anything like super
structured or serious.
Even just meeting for coffeeonce every other week or so, to
talk about a photo or two thatyou've made in that time is a
great start and just a great wayto connect, or going out to a

(42:57):
local nature park and taking afew photos together.
Like it's that simple.
It doesn't have to be over thetop.
You can do this.
You know, in fact, if you arelocal to Indy, feel free to
shoot me an email at beginnerphotography podcast@gmail.com,
and I would be happy to meet upand chat photography for a bit.
Why not?
I'm telling you, it's a greattime.

(43:17):
So there you go.
I'm serious.
That's all that I got for today.
Until next week.
Remember, the more that youshoot today, the better of a
photographer you'll be tomorrow.
Talk soon.

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