May 19, 2025 • 46 mins
In this episode, Mike sits down with Jonathan Pokluda to confront a critical question for every believer: are we ignoring the reality of spiritual warfare? Together they explore the often-overlooked connection between deliverance, discipleship, and evangelism, while unpacking the themes of Jonathan's latest book, Your Story Has a Villain.
From demonic encounters in unexpected places to revival breaking out across college campuses, this conversation exposes the spiritual battle raging in our culture—and the urgent call for the church to wake up. This is a timely reminder that we don’t fight for freedom, we inherit it through Christ.
- Many Christians acknowledge the demonic—but don’t live like it's real
- Spiritual warfare is inseparable from evangelism
- Why obedience isn’t legalism—it’s love
- The church must unite across denominations to confront a shared enemy
- How freedom is inherited, not earned
👉 Be equipped, be empowered—visit www.mikesignorelli.com
📖 Get Pastor Jonathan’s book here: bakerbookhouse.com/products/583711
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The Domino Revival Movie
The Domino Revival takes moviegoers on an extraordinary journey with Mike Signorelli and a group of revivalists during a pivotal period in our nation’s history. As society’s fascination with the supernatural intensifies, this film unveils the awe-inspiring power of Jesus Christ. Through compelling preaching, documented miracles, triumph over despair, and liberation from demons, The Domino Revival captures the essence of spiritual hunger and delivers a profound cinematic experience. STREAMING NOW!
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Inherit Your Freedom
Are you ready to break free from the cycles of generational trauma, curses, and limitations that have held you and your family captive for years? I recently finished writing my second book - Inherit Your Freedom, a powerful guide to transforming your life and legacy. This is more than a book—it’s a blueprint for breakthrough. Through my personal journey of overcoming my own family’s generational struggles, you’ll gain practical wisdom and real-world tools to unearth the spiritual obstacles holding you back and embrace the life of freedom God has destined for you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:33):
Let's just talk about the demonic.
Okay, let's do this though,because there's people watching right
now that believe in the devil.
They believe in demons, butthey, they don't know, like, where's
the line?
How do I know what it is?
How do, how do I know whatit's not?
But before we get into thatquestion, because I was just on Carl
Lentz's podcast and he waslike, mike, how do you know if you're
(00:55):
dealing with a demon?
So I'd love to hear youranswer, jp, and I'm sure you've got
some wisdom on that, but can,do you mind at least sharing the
story of how the spiritualrealm and, and this demonic stuff
really was unveiled to you?
Because I know you had asituation with, with a friend.
When I heard this story, itwas jaw dropping.
Do you mind sharing that with everybody?
(01:17):
Yeah, so I, I'll start hereand just say CS Lewis says there's
two mistakes we make about the devils.
He says one is giving them toomuch power and authority, being afraid
of them, and the other is notbelieving that they exist.
And so that kind of throwsback to Reservoir Dogs.
One of my favorite moviequotes is trick the devil's over
pulled is convincing the worldthat he doesn't exist.
And I think there's another,like a third option in 2025 that
(01:41):
is believing that the devilexists, believing that there's demons,
believing that there's fallen angels.
And that belief having zeroimplication for our life and what
we do.
And so what this, this book,your story, has a villain.
It started out as a three yearresearch project because I was seeing
the guys like you.
And by guys like you, I mean,I mean brilliant guys who love God's
(02:04):
word.
They hold the scripture inhigh authority.
And you're doing deliverance work.
You're coming, you'reencountering the manifestation of
demons.
You're, you're seeing peoplefreed from sin.
You know, it's real, it looksreal to me.
I'm like, you know, I don't, Idon't know.
And I was kind of taught, hey,don't argue with someone's experience,
but you can argue with whatthey make about the experience.
(02:26):
And I'm like, I'm seeing.
And I'm like, and now TikTokand, and Instagram and everybody
having a video camera on theirphone, it gives you a front row seat.
You know, you, you're seeingat least videos of it.
You're like, all right, nowyou got to make about, with what
you're seeing.
And so, for me, I.
I had been in.
I've been to Africa multipletimes, multiple countries in Africa.
(02:48):
Been to Haiti six times, youknow, shared the gospel with voodoo
priests.
I've been to the Amazon junglethree times.
And you would hear thesestories of demonic manifestations,
but I had never seen it firsthand.
Now, what you may not realize,Mike, is I was.
I was actually writing thisbook at the time.
(03:09):
So I was doing this.
I had.
I had agreed to write this book.
I had done the research.
I had preached on spiritualwarfare, and I did believe.
I believe that, you know, thedevil does work, but I still had
never seen it in that way.
And then I was.
You know, of all those placesthat I had been overseas, I had.
I had never seen a.
(03:29):
You know, encountered thedemonic that I was aware of.
And I'm in a country club inUtah, like.
Like, one of the nicestcountry clubs in our country, in
the.
In the nation.
I'm there for a ministryevent, a fundraising event.
I was invited.
And I'm in the lobby, and thisguy just comes off the course.
He's got his title, his visoron, he's got his polo tucked into
his khakis and his golf cleats on.
(03:50):
And I just go.
We're having a conversation.
And I go to share the gospelwith him.
And.
And I'm like, hey, do you.
You know, do you have a faith?
You have a relationship with Jesus?
And he says, I do.
But I struggle to pray.
And I'm like, why do youstruggle to pray?
He goes, when I do, I justhave this, like, physiological.
Like this physical response to prayer.
Like, my throat closes up, andjust something happens to me, and
(04:12):
I go, wow, that sounds demonic.
And he goes.
He's, like, belligerent.
He's like, it's not demonic.
You sound like my mom.
You know, what's wrong with you?
And.
And I go, well, have you everhad anybody pray over you?
Because lots of people haveprayed over me.
And he's still just really putoff by the questions.
And we talked some more.
You know, I'm just loving onthe dude.
And.
And we're talking about Jesus, and.
(04:34):
And he goes, well, why don'tyou pray for me?
And I was like, man, I'd be.
I'd be honored to.
And right then my friend walks up.
Praise God.
You know, I'm not alone.
My friend walks up, and we'rein this country club, and I just
put my hand on his back, and I.
I start praying.
And as I pray, I say, and,Lord, if there's anything demonic
here at work, would you justbind it in Jesus name?
(04:55):
And when I do that, he startsconvulsing and make like, just like,
just, you know, convulsing,kind of making this movement.
And he begins to cough and.
And then he starts, you know,making this terrible noise in this
country club.
And his arms go up and he kindof starts contorting and.
And I'm just like, whoa.
People are like, were you scared?
(05:15):
I was.
I'm embarrassed to tell youthat I was.
I was like, oh, my goodness,what is happening?
And I'm saying stuff.
I'm like, lord, and just bindit in Jesus name.
But I'm in my head.
My internal narrative is like,please don't let it jump on me.
Please don't let it jump on me.
Please don't let it jump on me.
And he kind of gets louder andbigger and.
And then, you know, begins tocalm down, quieter, more still.
(05:38):
And so I say, in Jesus name, amen.
And he's just kind of likestanding there, like, frozen at that
moment.
And he just moves his head andhe goes, well, I didn't expect that
to happen.
I was like, that makes two of us.
Yeah, it was wild.
And so that was a.
That was a crazy experience.
But I was already writing thebook, you know.
(05:58):
Well, and I think there was agrace on you because you were willing
to embrace the entire Bibleand say, okay, we.
We know this is clearly there.
Of course we're not going tobe demon possessed or demon obsessed,
and we're not going to belike, you know, because I think sometimes
there.
There can become this unusualobsession with the demonic and like
you had already mentioned,attributing too much to it.
(06:20):
Right.
And an unwillingness toaddress the mental, the strongholds
we have to deal with ourflesh, our.
You know, and I think that ofcourse, the deliverance movement
in, you know, in the fringes,de emphasized, like, discipleship
and DE emphasized, you know,just walking in holiness and sanctification
and, you know, renewing yourmind and the daily disciplines of
(06:44):
reading scripture.
But then on the flip side ofthat, it's like, well, if in your
Christian experience nothingis ever demonic, then you will be
conquered by the enemy thatyou refuse to acknowledge.
And.
Yeah, and that's my.
Yeah, yeah, that's my journey.
I was, you know, I'm a Bibleguy and I, I taught the Bible for
over a decade.
And I, I mean, I'mexpositional, exegetical, like, let's
(07:08):
take a passage, chop it up,look at the Greek, look at the Hebrew.
And, and, but I'm reading thesame Bible you have, and I'm like,
man, Jesus encountered a lotof demons.
And so what do I do with this?
Am I, am I left to believethat this ended in the first century
and this isn't happening now?
And, and, and I, I, I believethat one third of the angelic realm
(07:30):
fell to earth, and thoseangels are now fallen angels, demons,
and where did they go and whatare they doing?
And, and if it happened, then,then is it here?
And is it, is, are wemisdiagnosing schizophrenia?
Is it, is all of that demonic?
And, you know, what do we dowith that?
And that, that really was thebeginning of this journey.
I mean, that question.
(07:50):
I remember a Christian said,Mike that, you know, he said, I was,
I was getting ready to go tochurch, and I, I, I got in my car
and it wouldn't start, youknow, and, and it was like, hashtag,
spiritual warfare.
And I was like, well,goodness, like, what can, like, and
it was his battery, hisbattery was dead.
(08:11):
I was like, well, can theydrain a battery?
Like, what can they do?
Did they have to pop your hood?
Do they leave your door open,leave the light on?
What did they do?
And I just, those were like,sincere questions, like, I don't
know.
And so I just started that,that trying to figure out.
And it turns out, you know,the Bible says more about spiritual
warfare than it does about marriage.
Yeah.
If I'm an honest preacher,then really my sermon series, you
(08:33):
know, should be 10 to 1,spiritual warfare to marriage.
Because it's, that's, that'show the, the scripture operates.
And, you know, to youroriginal question, Second Corinthians,
chapter four, verse four says,you know, if you ask a bunch of Christians
who's the God of this world,you know, we'll say Jesus, Yahweh,
Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Jehovah.
But Second Corinthians 4,verse 4 says that Satan is the lowercase
(08:57):
G God of this world.
And the good news is, firstJohn 4, verse 4, greater is he who
is in us than he who is in the world.
And so we don't have to beafraid, but we do need to be aware.
(09:47):
Yeah, that's why I love whatyou're doing, is you're, you are
raising awareness of this.
And, you know, I think, Ithink people who come from the camp
that I come from couldcriticize that.
And I, I love that you're,you're bringing a healthy balance
to that.
Just to say, hey, the enemy's real.
We Don't.
We don't need to make too muchof it.
We don't need to operate froma position of defeat.
(10:07):
But we do need to be aware.
You know, we do need to beaware that a lot of the bondage that
we're seeing is Satanic.
It is demonic, and we got tohave solutions for that.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, and I love the fact thatyou mentioned Jesus encountered a
lot of demons.
I've been rereading the bookof Matthew, and it's almost like
you forget how frequently hewas encountering demons until you
(10:29):
read the book of Matthew specifically.
And.
But it was just a normal thing.
And I think it's.
When you're ministering topeople, there's like an arsenal you
have.
And the thing I was talkingabout the other day is, like, what
do you do with the disablingspirit in the book of Luke, you know,
where it's like a spirit of infirmity?
One translation says, youknow, James chapter five is like,
if there's any sick among you,bring them to the elders, have them
(10:51):
anoint with oil and lay hands.
But then how do you know ifyou're dealing with something biological
or something supernatural?
And even for me as a pastor, Ihave to audit myself and say, man,
when I'm praying for sickpeople, am I ever attributing it
to a demonic origin, or is itonly biological in my mind?
Because a good minister has a repertoire.
(11:13):
It's like, hey, you need toapply discipline.
We need to get you on ahealthy diet.
We need to get you working out regularly.
And this is primarily adiscipline issue.
Then the next person like, no,regardless of discipline, this sickness
is biological, and we need topray for supernatural healing.
But then the other category,and I think it's Luke chapter 13,
(11:33):
is, you know, the woman who'shunched over for 18 years, and it
was like, Jesus did not say,you know, be made whole.
He literally cast out adisabling spirit.
And so you do have an instancewhere that was demonic in origin.
And I just think it's a wisdomthing, you know, And.
And then sometimes it's all three.
It's like, hey, the demonicinfluence caused a physical condition,
(11:57):
but then now you have to rehabyour body and go on a journey of
health after this prayer for freedom.
And I think what happened forme and is that just my willingness
to even acknowledge the fullministry of Jesus caused me to get
thrust into a deliverance camp.
And, jp I know we're kind ofgetting to know each other, but I
literally spent two years withTim Keller in New York City.
(12:20):
So it's like, that's GospelCoalition, you know, that's reformed
camp, you know.
And so it's weird because whenI, when people started, you know,
calling me a deliverance guy,I laughed because I was like, well,
I used to call myself a gospel guy.
And wherever the gospel isbeing preached, I do believe you
will see people gettinghealed, people getting free from
(12:41):
demons, people's lives being restored.
And there's a lot of, like,nuance in that.
And so I'm grateful for yourbook and conversations like this
because I feel like, you know,it's bringing a.
A wisdom.
I don't even want to use theword balance, because sometimes,
as you mentioned with yourfriend in the country club, like,
there's nothing balanced aboutthe fact that he's coughing and contorting
(13:02):
and a golf course, you know,and so sometimes people look at the
footage and there's like, thiscan't possibly be real.
And it's like, well, if it'shappening every single time you pray
for somebody, somebody'smaking it up, you know, like.
But it, but if you'refaithfully praying for people over
the totality of your ministryand never encountering the demonic,
(13:24):
I have to question some.
You know, even there's a greatJohn Piper story that he tells himself
of ministering to somebody.
And then it's very similar toyour story where it was sort of unexpected.
And so it's like, listen, ifJohn Piper has a deliverance story
and you don't, I don't carewhat camp you come from, like, you're
doing something wrong.
(13:45):
So, but, but let me ask youthis, because you minister to a lot
of people.
You talked about seeing someof these things happen overseas.
Then you had experience on US Soil.
What do you think is the.
What are you discerning is thespiritual climate in America right
now?
Like, why is this book.
Your story has a villain soimportant, particularly for American
(14:07):
Christians.
You said, we're getting toknow each other.
I know we're doing ministry intwo different contexts.
And so I, you know, two yearsago, my now friend Tanya Pruitt asked
me to speak at Deal at Auburn University.
I thought I was going to see600 college students.
(14:27):
And initially I said no,because it was just a short turnaround.
And then another personreached out and said, hey, would
you please do this?
That I knew.
And I said, sure.
And so I go there and.
And there were 6,000 college students.
And that night a bunchresponded to the gospel, and 250
were baptized and we.
It was amazing.
It was one of the highlightsof my ministry, and I thought it
(14:49):
was done, but Tanya had reallyprayed this movement into existence.
Little did I know.
I didn't know at the time.
Wow.
But then we went to fsu, thenAlabama, then Georgia, then Tennessee,
you know, and then.
And then the University ofFlorida and South Carolina.
And so now we've been to 13,14 campuses.
We're going to Purdue, we'regoing to West Virginia.
(15:13):
April 22nd will be at Baylor.
And we're seeing thousandsrespond to the gospel and hundreds
get baptized every single time.
So now I've prayed with over20,000 college students.
And so.
Wow.
I'm using the, the word revival.
I think we're in it.
I think it's happening in, in,in prisons and on university campuses.
(15:37):
I think it's happening on, in,in and throughout street conversations.
Some.
Much of, you know what, whatyou're doing and just where God is
anointing men, pastors likeyourself to have this international
global reach to declare thetruth of Christ.
I, I'll say.
(15:58):
I mean, you know, it's soweird because you're.
For your, your audience.
This may not be strange thingsto say for, for me and my background
and, and what I know, mytheological framework, my theological
foundation is such a strangething to say.
Pastor Mike, I think we are soclose to, to the return of Christ.
I think he's coming back and,and there's something being disrupted
(16:21):
in the spiritual realm right now.
Satan's not hiding anymore.
You know, you go back to that,that quote from Reservoir Dogs.
He.
He's no longer trying toconvince the world he doesn't exist
right now, at least in our country.
It just seems like he's.
He's showing his cards, he'sshowing up, he's.
He's doing work and, And Ithink he's.
I think he's really trying to,to wreak havoc, to, to terrorize,
(16:42):
to scare people.
And, you know, when, when yougo through Ephesians 6, the, the
spiritual armor and you havethe feet fitted ready with, with
the readiness of the gospel.
I think we have to, asfollowers of Jesus Christ, be armed
with the gospel and sharing iton the regular.
I think Paul there is, Isprobably chained to a Roman soldier,
(17:03):
and he's just, he's using thearmor to describe a normal Christian.
Yeah, like a normal Christianwill be positioned in truth and aligned
with righteousness, and anormal Christian is sharing the gospel.
And they, they have the shieldof faith, faith, and they're internalizing
salvation and they'reoperating with the sword of the Spirit,
which is the word of God, andthey're praying consistently that
God would move and act, thatthat's just normal for a follower
(17:26):
of Jesus.
And.
And my context is differentthan yours.
In the south, it's like,everybody thinks they're a Christian.
You probably live in a.
I'm.
I assume New York is morepolarized, where it's just like,
no, I'm not a Christian.
In the south, you know,everybody's a Christian.
And so I'm.
I'm evangelizing to people whohave gone to church their entire
life, really trying toconvince them that they're not a
(17:48):
Jesus follower so that theycan become one.
But, yeah, I think we'reseeing revival, man.
Wow.
Well, let me just say thispublicly, because there's been a
couple of times while you'retalking where I.
I feel like I want to weep.
And I was like, lord, what is it?
Because you're carrying such astrong external presence of the Holy
Spirit on you, and I reallywant to affirm it's your humility,
(18:11):
because you know that it'streacherous territory within your
circles.
And, you know, you're kind oflike, you're trying to honor and
acknowledge scriptures andserve people well.
And I just respect that sodeeply because I spent years, you
know, trying to be thePentecostal that went into the Reformed
camps or.
And I have a lot of dearfriends who are very ardent cessationists.
(18:34):
And you know what I love about them?
They know the scriptures.
They memorize the scriptures,spiritual formation from birth to
grave, and we can learn a lot.
I attribute a lot of thesuccess of my church.
You know, how do you get toseven campuses, six physical in eight
years?
It's like, because I stolefrom my Lutheran friends and my Presbyterian
(18:54):
friends and my Methodistfriends and my Baptist friends, because
there's so much value in thethings that they were doing.
And so I think for me to seeyou say, like, okay, there's a lot
of people who've tried tocancel the word revival, but how
else do we even explain what'sgoing on?
And at what point can we.
At what point who gets todetermine when we can use this Word?
(19:16):
And what I love about you islike, bro, when we're seeing hundreds
of college kids, you know,baptized thousands, except Christ,
can I now do I have permissionto use the word revival?
And of course, Pentecostalshave abused that word.
But I think it's like thisweird convergence is happening where
it's like, you know, I loveyou for your relationship teachings,
(19:37):
your marriage teachings.
And then when you stepped intothe spiritual.
The.
The spiritual warfare realm, Iwas like, oh, it's.
It's time to fight back toback on this.
Because there's something about.
There's a convergence, andyou're seeing people, regardless
of their denominationalaffiliation, start to say, wait a
second, let's become friendsin a foxhole.
(19:58):
Because there's nothing that'smore unifying than a shared enemy.
And when we start recognizing,like, we're not each other's enemy,
but Satan and these demonicforces are like, that's, to me, one
of the most powerful nextsteps we could take.
So I just want to say thispublicly because maybe our audiences
are different.
I embrace and affirm whatyou're doing.
(20:20):
There's tremendous value in it.
And just you're walking, Ithink, in a greater level of authority.
And it's a.
Both.
And because, of course, you'restill preaching all those other topics,
but it's stepping into this.
It's.
It's so needed, and it's justlike an extra toolkit.
So.
One last thing I want to say,and I want to ask you a question
about this.
I was in prayer the other day,and you reminded me, when you're
(20:42):
talking to me about Ephesians 7:6.
I had this vision in prayer ofthis exceedingly great army, this.
Which I believe is on theplanet right now.
And they were fully armored up.
They had their sword, they.
They had their shield, butthey were all shoeless.
And it was like this massiveshoeless army just barefoot.
(21:03):
And I feel like what the Lordis calling everyone to right now
is the shoes that speed thegospel, because there's something
about putting, like, when thearmy stops being shoeless.
And it's like.
And because what happens isthat does away with a lot of the
frivolous theologicalarguments, because it's like, when
you start preaching the gospelenough, you know, my friends who
(21:26):
are Methodists are like, oh,yeah, like, well, let me put like
this.
My friends who are Methodistswho preach the gospel have stories
of the demonic.
It's the.
It's my institutionalizedfriends who never leave the building
that don't have those stories.
So.
So to me, the lowest commondenominator is evangelism.
And that's why when you.
When I asked you tell me whatyou have to say about the state of
(21:48):
America, you answered with evangelism.
I'm showing up and I'm evangelizing.
And therefore, I needed towrite this book.
So if you could speak to.
Because this is a thing Iwould love for you to minister to
my audience is you are an evangelist.
You're also a pastor, butthere's something about you where,
like, you're a soul winner,and you're like, man, we need to
(22:10):
understand spiritual warfarebecause of soul winning.
And, and the thing that annoysme so much about people from my camp
is there they know everythingabout spiritual warfare and nothing
about evangelism.
So how would you speak to them?
Yeah, gosh, there's so much there.
I got it back.
I got it back way up.
Because when you were talking,I mean, I don't know what's happening
(22:32):
right now, but I, I gotemotional, too.
And I just, I think that, youknow, Pastor Mike and I met each
other because we, we disagreedon something, and I.
You know, what's so funnyabout disagreements is I can't for
the life of me remember whatit was.
Say it was like.
Like a year and a half ago or something.
And then we started talking.
(22:52):
And, and just as.
As brothers, do, you know, you.
We, we pursued peace.
I think that's why Jesusprayed for us that we would have
peace, because one of theenemy's tactics is disunity, and
he's trying to divide.
And the whole book reallystarts with a screwtape letter about
2020, where it just is, itjust seemed to me that they had unleashed
(23:15):
one.
They all came unified in theirstrategy of just divide.
Divide them racially,socially, politically, by gender,
by ideologies.
Just divide, divide, divide, divide.
And so I think what you'reseeing now is people locking arms.
And I loved what you saidaround a.
A common enemy, becausethat's, that's exactly right.
(23:37):
And will you please forgive mefor whatever bonehead thing I said,
you know, year and a half ago?
I don't even know what it was.
And I wish I could ask with agreater sincerity, but I, I.
Will you please forgive me,Pastor, for whatever that was?
Oh, man, now you get me choked up.
Okay, you want to hearsomething crazy, jp?
I don't remember what it was either.
And I, I, I promise you I don't.
(23:58):
I actually, I vaguely remember that.
And I think I hit you up or something.
And, And I was like.
At first, I was like, I'mgonna go back through DMs and see
if I can find it.
And then it was like,honestly, who cares?
I.
And I was probably wrong, too,so I want to apologize to you.
And, And I.
And I think when you talkabout unity.
Are you familiar with Jack Haford?
(24:19):
Do you remember him?
Yes.
You know, one of the things Irespected about him so much, he was
a mentor, is that he was like,interdenominational, you know, And
I.
And it's like, I really beenseeing a need for that in the earth.
And there's just somethingvery special happening right now.
And I want to be a bridgebuilder, not a bridge burner.
And I.
And I.
It's like.
(24:39):
It's like when you think aboutActs 2, they were in one mind, they
were in one accord.
You know, there's somethingabout that.
Or the Hellenist Greeks versusthe apostolic leaders.
Hey, do we feed the poor?
Do we preach the gospel?
And it's like, hey, guys, wedo both.
And I think we're entering aboth and not an either or.
And it's like, hey, if.
But.
But.
And it's almost.
(25:00):
It takes men like us with acouple of gray hairs, you know, lived
a bit of.
A little bit of life to say,hey, young people, what if you're
all right?
And what.
What if.
What if.
What if what you feel apassion for is what you're supposed
to go do?
And I go do my thing.
And I think what's sobeautiful about our story is, is
I didn't go to New York Citywith the intention of becoming a
(25:22):
deliverance church.
I.
And.
And I think that's evidencedby the fact that my first mentor
was Tim Keller, who's wayoutside of my circles, because I
was like, I want to make surethat I'm faithfully being a witness
to the gospel.
But then what happened was,this is the crossroads of the world,
and people are doing Santeriaand Obia and all forms of witchcraft.
(25:44):
And.
And they're really doing it asa form of counterfeit comfort.
That's the phrase I use,because it's like, most witchcraft
is not with the intention of,I want to be a witch, I want to become
a warlock, I want to be demonized.
It's.
I'm in deep pain.
And I think that this willsolve or at least medicate or help
this pain.
And so I basically startedrealizing that here in New York City
(26:06):
that they don't realize theHoly Spirit's the comforter.
And it's.
And so my definition ofrevival is actually.
It's an exchange.
Give up something that youthink is good for something that's
actually good, which is Jesusand the presence of the Holy Spirit.
And so when all this videostarted coming out of my church campuses,
stages filled with all thesenew age and occult items, I wasn't
(26:31):
trying to create a circus.
I wasn't trying to do it for publicity.
It was literally like, no, theNew Yorkers actually thought all
this stuff was going to helpthem through their grieving seasons,
their mourning seasons, their breakups.
And I gave them Jesus and they traded.
They basically said, oh,you're right, this is better.
And I see that with theApostle Paul, where it's like, you
(26:51):
have an iron workers guildmaking all these trinket gods, and
he starts a whole riot because he.
The statistical sales ofthose, those items go down.
And it wasn't that Paul said,hey, stop selling idols or stop buying
idols.
Paul was like, hey, yeah, Igot something better and it's free.
It's because Jesus paid it all.
(27:12):
And so I think what happenedwas I was kind of starting these
little mini riots online and whatever.
And I was like, I promisethat's not my intention.
You know, so you're in thisjourney now.
Let you know if we could havea few more minutes because this has
been so rich.
Your question too.
I still have an answer for you.
Yeah, yeah, I want to.
That's it.
I want to kick back to you.
(27:32):
Yeah.
So let me, let me say.
So that was.
The one thing is just thankyou for the grace there.
Then we used the wordscessationist earlier, just in case
your audience is not awarethat that root word of that is ceased.
And so there's, there'sdenominations and, and people who
believe that the, the signgifts have ceased.
This comes from FirstCorinthians 13, you know, where,
(27:54):
where there are.
They will cease.
And I don't think that's whatthat scripture is saying, even though
I've in, you know, decades agohave been tempted to believe that
at times, but I just alwaysknew there's got to be more.
There's got to be more of God.
There's got to be more of God.
And Jesus says, you know,greater works than these.
(28:15):
And I'm getting to the answerof your question, says greater works
than these, you'll be able todo these things in greater works
than these.
And so what, what everyfollower of Jesus listening has the
power to do is we can sharethe greatest story that's ever been
told.
It's this story of God gettinghis children back.
It's this story.
It's a rescue plan.
It's this story of the creatorof the heavens, the earth, losing
(28:38):
his children to sin, topornography, to vaping, to thc, to
cocaine, to lust, to greed, toenvy, just giving themselves over
to that.
And God says, how Should Ipunish them for what they've done?
You know what?
I'm gonna go into the world,I'm gonna rescue them, and I'm gonna
(28:59):
be.
I'm gonna be brutally murderedand tortured in their place.
That if they trust in me,Jesus Christ, then they will not
perish, but they will haveeverlasting life.
They will.
They will.
They will adopt.
They will be adopted in.
They will inherit a kingdomthat they could never deserve.
That's grace.
Never deserve.
And so this is the story thatwe're living, where the devil loses.
(29:23):
He's.
He's read the back of the book.
He knows that he's thrown intothe lake of fire.
So he's running this scorchedearth strategy.
Yeah, where he's justterrorized people.
When we.
When we, you know, bait.
When we, you know, sleep withstrangers, when we, you know, buy
things that we don't needrather than help the poor, when we.
When we try to build our ownkingdoms, demons receive that as
(29:46):
worship.
They.
They.
They don't need you to do aseance with candles and a pentagram
on the floor, drinking blood.
They'll take you just hurtingyourself under the banner of sin,
as worship.
And so when you sin, you letthem in.
You know, you give the devil afoothold, and footholds turn to strongholds.
And so when you consistentlysin, you're.
(30:07):
You're.
You're handing yourself overto the enemy to have his way with
you.
So when we come in with thegreatest message ever told, Romans
8:1, there is now nocondemnation for those who are in
Christ Jesus.
2nd Corinthians 5:19.
God is no longer counting yoursins against you.
I can say to the prostitutethat you can stand pure and holy
before God one day, notbecause of what you've done, but
(30:28):
because of what he did for youon his.
On your behalf through hisson, Jesus Christ.
And so the way that I'm.
I'm sharing the gospel is.
And I just would ask youraudience this.
I just say between 1 and 10,10 being certain, 1 being not so
sure.
If you died today, how certainare you that you would go to heaven
on that scale, as you thinkabout it.
(30:49):
And so the reason I do that isbecause 22 years ago, someone asked
me that, and I said, I'm a seven.
And the second question is, isif you stood before God.
And before I say thisquestion, I would just encourage
your audience to think of anumber between 1 and 10.
Anywhere in that.
In that scale.
If you died right now, howcertain are you that you would go
to heaven.
And so again, 22 years ago, Isaid a 7.
(31:11):
And the second question was this.
If you stood before God and hesaid, why should I let you in?
What would you say?
And so you can think about that.
And.
And I ask somebody that everyday of my life.
And I hear, because I wasgood, because I tried hard, because
I went to church, because Iwas a Christian, because I was in
a Christian family, because Idid this, because I did that, because
I.
Because I.
Yeah, and that's it.
(31:31):
I said, because I've triedhard, because I.
Because I'm a good person,because I want to do the right thing.
And they.
That person just shared withme the greatest news the world has
ever heard.
That it's not because I anything.
It's because God sent his son,Jesus Christ, to suffer and die in
my place.
And he defeated death andraised him from the dead.
(31:51):
And the same spirit thatraised Jesus from the dead is available
to me, that that spirit cancome and live in my life and show
me how to overcome temptation,that no temptation has seized me
except what is common to man.
And God is faithful.
He will not allow me to betempted beyond what I can bear.
And he will provide a way outso that I can stand up under.
(32:12):
And so the reality is I can beat 10.
It's first john 5, 13.
I write these things to youwho believe in the name of the Son
of God, so that you may knowthat you have eternal life, that
you can know the scripturesays you can know Ephesians 2, 8,
9, for it is by grace you havebeen saved through faith.
It's not of yourself.
It's the gift of God, not bywork, so that no one can boast.
But Romans 10, 9.
(32:32):
If you confess with your mouththat Jesus Christ is Lord, believe
in your heart that God raisedhim from the dead, then you will
be saved.
Not might be saved, should besaved, could be saved, will be saved,
but will be saved because ofwhat Christ did for us.
And so as I stand before God,and I don't think he'll ask this,
but if he did, why should Ilet you in?
I would say God.
You shouldn't.
You saw prom night and you saw.
(32:53):
You saw things I did.
You saw what I looked at.
You know, the kind of pornthat I preferred.
Before I was a.
A follower of Jesus, you know that.
That time that I got so highwith those guys and the things I
looked at and.
And when I was in that hotelroom where I'm wondering if anybody's
Going to know what I looked aton the tv.
You saw all the things.
But you, God, you pay forthose things through Jesus.
(33:16):
And so now I walk in thefreedom, not needing to hide my sin
any longer.
But as you said, James 5, Ican confess my sin.
That's it.
Confess your sins to others sothat they can pray for you, so that
you may be healed.
For the prayers of a righteousperson are powerful and effective.
And so I can now have thefreedom to confess my sin, to bring
it to the light and livetransparently and pursue righteousness
(33:39):
and pursue holiness becausehe's holy.
And so I think we have to beas we're armed with the sword of
the spirit, which is the wordof God, we've got to be armed with
the gospel of Jesus Christ andso that we can bring the dead to
life.
Come on, you're jpr.
You're on fire, man.
Seriously, like, that was so needed.
And I want to show you something.
This is not a plug, I promise,but, like, I think this will help
(34:02):
you understand how much of analignment there is in the body of
Christ right now.
So the book that I literallyjust released a couple months ago
because my publisher had askedme, like, hey, I want you to do a
book on freedom.
You know, what are the stepsthat you take your church through?
And I really sat with it and Iwas like, man, what is a title that
speaks to the gospel?
And because I think theproblem with the deliverance movement
(34:26):
is that it can teeter into aworkspace thing and people don't
understand salvation, theydon't understand the gospel.
And so I kid you not, youliterally said the word, which is
why I want to show it, becauseI was like, wow, this is so on time.
So the title is inherit your freedom.
And so it's the concept of,like, you don't, you don't earn your
freedom, you inherit it.
(34:46):
And I think a lot of spiritualwarfare insinuates I have to fight
harder.
And it's like, no, no, youneed to surrender deeper because,
like, the deeper you surrenderand that, that's where freedom comes
from.
And so literally, my book iscalled inherit your freedom, which
this is a low key rebuke onthe deliverance community, because
it's like, you know, we need,we need to learn how to inherit it.
(35:10):
Not just fight for it, butactually to understand that it was
already won and we can receivewhat was already won.
I think some of these things,themes like inheritance versus, you
know, earning it throughworks, it brings correction and alignment.
And we know the devil hatesthat because he wants people to think
that they're always going tobe bound.
(36:25):
They're always going to be,you know, got to cast more demons
out so that.
So your book inherit yourfreedom, which I love that title.
One thing I'm doing at these,you know, at these gatherings, unite
gatherings and collegecampuses is I'll.
I'll take something, you know,like a.
Like a.
You know, it's just like.
Like candy, or I'll.
(36:46):
I'll pull out a 20 bill orsomething and I'll just say, hey,
hey.
Is anybody gospel with you?
Is anybody here?
Like, hey, I'm trying.
You're like, man, I'm trying.
Like, I'm trying.
I want.
I want to believe this.
I'm.
I'm trying to live theChristian life.
I'm trying.
I'm trying.
I'm trying to accept Jesus.
I'm trying to be a Christian.
Anybody feel that and that,like, their hands will go up and
(37:08):
I'll grab somebody, like,usually on the second or third row,
and I was like, come up here and.
And they'll just walk up tothe stage and I'll.
And I'll hold out that, youknow, Snickers bar or whatever it
is, and I'll go, I want you totry to take this.
And they'll take it.
And I'm like.
I'm like, okay, no, no, giveit back to me.
I want you to try to take it.
And they'll take it again.
And I go, no, no, no, give itback to me.
I want you to try to take it.
And they're so confused, and,you know, thousands of people are
(37:30):
watching them, and.
And then they take it again.
And I say, you can't try totake something that's being freely
given to you.
Wow.
You can take it or.
Or you can leave it.
Those are your options.
You can take it or you canleave it.
In Luke, chapter 18, and thestory is repeated throughout the
Gospels, but in Luke 18, hesays, unless you receive the kingdom
(37:50):
of heaven like a child, youwill not enter it.
So he says, you receive thisgrace that he's bringing that Jesus
is giving you free.
He's like, here it is.
And you can say, I want it, oryou can say, I don't want it.
But there you can't really getstuck in the.
Trying to receive it.
The choice, just because ofthe podcast that you're listening
(38:13):
to right now, it's your choice.
You can say, I want that, andI accept it.
In the name of Jesus, I accept it.
Or you can say, I do not wantthat, and I reject it, but you're
brought to a conclusion there.
Man, I'm so thankful, sothankful for you having this conversation.
And, and thank, thank you forwriting that book.
(38:34):
And man, Pastor Mike, I'm justgrateful for you, man.
Oh, come on.
I, well, the feelings mutual.
And I'm so thankful for you.
And this was like a reallypowerful, insightful conversation.
And I love how it's like,listen, Jesus Christ disempowered
the enemy.
And so let's not empower him.
You know, let's not give him ajurisdiction that was already taken
(38:54):
away.
And a lot of it is justenforcing what Christ has already
given us access to andstanding in that authority.
And I love that that's whatyou did with your friend on the,
on the golf course.
It's like, hey, I'm enforcingwhat's already been won.
You know, you have access tofreedom and you, you have to inherit
it, which is.
And I think our culturestruggles with that because we're,
(39:15):
we're grinders, we'rehustlers, we're workers.
Like, we understand the wagesof sin is death.
We understand wages because weknow how to earn a grade in school.
We know how to earn a paycheckat, at our job.
But the gift of God is eternal life.
And we're just bad gift receivers.
And you know that.
And I think even that journeyabout, we talked about cessationism,
(39:37):
it's like, man, there.
These are the gifts of the spirit.
And so it's like the, the realquestion is like, are we becoming
good gift receivers?
And I love your heart, becausea heart that's open to the gospel
is a heart that becomes opento the gifts.
Because it's like, I receivedthe gift of salvation.
What other gifts do you havefor me?
And so I, I love that.
(39:59):
You know, there's that versethat says deliverance is the children's
bread.
And so, you know, I love thatconcept of it's.
It's a gift.
And so, you know, you're a pioneer.
You're a forerunner.
You're bold, man.
You're.
You're a risk taker.
I applaud you for that.
And just stepping into thisterritory and it's, it's just funny
how, you know, in God's divinewisdom, he's bringing guys like you
(40:21):
and I together for such a timeas this.
And, man, I do believe that's something.
You know, I know.
Of course, people have beensaying Christ is going to come back
for a long time, but it's likewhen a woman is in, in those birthing
pangs, the, the frequency, theintensity and the duration of those
contractions are signaling tohow soon it is.
(40:41):
And I think we both agreethat, man, this, this world that
we're living in, we need books.
Like, your story has a villain.
We need to unmask and unveilthe enemy.
We need to be equippedbecause, yeah, it's, I mean, even
in secular scientificcommunity, they've, they've moved
the Doomsday Clock to 11:59.
So it's, you know what I mean?
So it's like, it's like, youknow, Christians are like, oh, we're
(41:04):
not in the end times.
It's like, I don't know,scientists who, atheistic scientists
believe we are.
So, you know, and that'ssomething that I've been looking
a lot into.
So I want to give you thefinal word.
And you know, if you just wantto, you know, people read your book
and I believe many of them aregoing to Amazon, they're getting
it right now.
And what do you hope that theydo on the other side of it?
(41:28):
You know, because my bookdeals a lot with like generational
inheritance things that youdeal with at, you know, the epigenetic,
we take a look at thebiological, the spiritual.
And so I want people to, Ibelieve that family is revival and
the enemy hates family.
Family.
He hates strong f.
He hates fathers in the home.
And so my book is like, man,God's design for humanity is family.
(41:50):
And my, my, my hope is that.
So when people read your storyas a villain and they're buying the
book, now they're getting thebook, like what are they doing and
what's the result of it?
Yeah, I think I would justimplore you as, as the Apostle Paul
did.
And I, I really think that inEphesians 6 he's describing the authentic,
(42:13):
real deal Christian.
And so I would say, walk inrighteousness, stay in step with
the Spirit, pursue holinessbecause he's holy.
Not, it's not legalism.
Like Tozer said, the churchwill be at the height of its heresy
when it calls obedience.
Legalism.
Like, I'm not talking aboutrules, man.
I'm talking about arelationship with your creator through
Jesus Christ that you wouldremain in step with him, that you
(42:35):
would rid your life of anyunholiness that you would drag into
the light, anything indarkness, if there's an abortion
that you thought, hey, I'mgoing to take this to my grave.
I'm never going to tellanybody about this time.
I got too drunk and did thingsthat I never thought I would do.
I, I would bring it to the light.
I would tell believers, Iwould have them pray over you.
I would renounce the enemy andI would walk in the spirit.
(42:56):
I would trust in Christ.
If you haven't, surrender yourlife to Jesus Christ and, and then
stay in step with the spirit.
You know, find, find a Bibleteaching church.
Plug in there, you know, serve there.
Become a, you know, be amember there.
Get other believers around youand live the fullness of the Christian
life.
Because the thief comes onlyto steal, kill and destroy.
But Christ has come so that wemight have life and have it to the
(43:17):
fullest, have it abundantly.
And so the Christian life isnot boring.
Listen, I've drank deeply fromthe world.
Like, I've had the sex, I'vedone the drugs.
I, I lived in the penthouse condo.
I drove the car and had adifferent watch for every day of
the week, week.
And I have found somethingbeautiful in Jesus Christ.
Like, and I'm no, and I'msober minded.
And I'm just telling you,there's no turning back.
I found something good inJesus Christ.
(43:38):
Burn the ships.
Let's go.
You know, and, and I, I wantthat for everybody that's listening
to this right now.
Come on.
Oh, so powerful, man.
And you know what?
That's it.
I, Even for all the faults andfailures of this deliverance movement
or whatever's happening, onething that I've experienced kind
of being invited into thatworld a little bit over the last
several years is a real heartfor holiness, you know, and, and
(44:02):
people just saying, man, Iwant to live right.
I don't want to have thesethings in my life.
And, and I think what I loveis like, how gracious you've been
with this conversation and,you know, being willing to understand
that.
And, you know, I, I really do.
You know, think about how he'sreturning for a bride without spot
or blemish.
But he's the one who does the,who irons out the wrinkles, he's
(44:23):
the one who removes the blemishes.
We just got to submit to that process.
And so it's like, man, God'sbringing these book resources like
your story has a villain,like, you know, inherit your freedom.
And I just think what that'spointing to is, hey, the, the bride,
he's working on the pride.
He's, he's getting usincreasingly ready.
So I'm excited to hear all thetestimonies in the chat, guys.
(44:45):
I can't wait to see what youhad to say about this.
We, we love getting into thecomment section.
And you'll have to come back.
We'll have to go round two, goa little bit deeper and all this.
We're going to have you onbecoming something, and it's going
to be awesome.
Come on.
Yeah.
It'll be fun.
Yeah.
Because I got so many morequestions for you, but I know that
we're busy men, but we'll haveto reconnect.
(45:06):
We'll do part two.
We'll keep the conversation going.
So thank you so much, my joy brother.
Thank you so much, Pastor.
Let's just talk about the demonic.
Okay, let's do this though,because there's people watching right
now that believe in the devil.
They believe in demons, butthey, they don't know, like, where's
the line?
How do I know what it is?
How do, how do I know whatit's not?
But before we get into thatquestion, because I was just on Carl
Lentz's podcast and he waslike, mike, how do you know if you're
(00:55):
dealing with a demon?
So I'd love to hear youranswer, jp, and I'm sure you've got
some wisdom on that, but can,do you mind at least sharing the
story of how the spiritualrealm and, and this demonic stuff
really was unveiled to you?
Because I know you had asituation with, with a friend.
When I heard this story, itwas jaw dropping.
Do you mind sharing that with everybody?
(01:17):
Yeah, so I, I'll start hereand just say CS Lewis says there's
two mistakes we make about the devils.
He says one is giving them toomuch power and authority, being afraid
of them, and the other is notbelieving that they exist.
And so that kind of throwsback to Reservoir Dogs.
One of my favorite moviequotes is trick the devil's over
pulled is convincing the worldthat he doesn't exist.
And I think there's another,like a third option in 2025 that
(01:41):
is believing that the devilexists, believing that there's demons,
believing that there's fallen angels.
And that belief having zeroimplication for our life and what
we do.
And so what this, this book,your story, has a villain.
It started out as a three yearresearch project because I was seeing
the guys like you.
And by guys like you, I mean,I mean brilliant guys who love God's
(02:04):
word.
They hold the scripture inhigh authority.
And you're doing deliverance work.
You're coming, you'reencountering the manifestation of
demons.
You're, you're seeing peoplefreed from sin.
You know, it's real, it looksreal to me.
I'm like, you know, I don't, Idon't know.
And I was kind of taught, hey,don't argue with someone's experience,
but you can argue with whatthey make about the experience.
(02:26):
And I'm like, I'm seeing.
And I'm like, and now TikTokand, and Instagram and everybody
having a video camera on theirphone, it gives you a front row seat.
You know, you, you're seeingat least videos of it.
You're like, all right, nowyou got to make about, with what
you're seeing.
And so, for me, I.
I had been in.
I've been to Africa multipletimes, multiple countries in Africa.
(02:48):
Been to Haiti six times, youknow, shared the gospel with voodoo
priests.
I've been to the Amazon junglethree times.
And you would hear thesestories of demonic manifestations,
but I had never seen it firsthand.
Now, what you may not realize,Mike, is I was.
I was actually writing thisbook at the time.
(03:09):
So I was doing this.
I had.
I had agreed to write this book.
I had done the research.
I had preached on spiritualwarfare, and I did believe.
I believe that, you know, thedevil does work, but I still had
never seen it in that way.
And then I was.
You know, of all those placesthat I had been overseas, I had.
I had never seen a.
(03:29):
You know, encountered thedemonic that I was aware of.
And I'm in a country club inUtah, like.
Like, one of the nicestcountry clubs in our country, in
the.
In the nation.
I'm there for a ministryevent, a fundraising event.
I was invited.
And I'm in the lobby, and thisguy just comes off the course.
He's got his title, his visoron, he's got his polo tucked into
his khakis and his golf cleats on.
(03:50):
And I just go.
We're having a conversation.
And I go to share the gospelwith him.
And.
And I'm like, hey, do you.
You know, do you have a faith?
You have a relationship with Jesus?
And he says, I do.
But I struggle to pray.
And I'm like, why do youstruggle to pray?
He goes, when I do, I justhave this, like, physiological.
Like this physical response to prayer.
Like, my throat closes up, andjust something happens to me, and
(04:12):
I go, wow, that sounds demonic.
And he goes.
He's, like, belligerent.
He's like, it's not demonic.
You sound like my mom.
You know, what's wrong with you?
And.
And I go, well, have you everhad anybody pray over you?
Because lots of people haveprayed over me.
And he's still just really putoff by the questions.
And we talked some more.
You know, I'm just loving onthe dude.
And.
And we're talking about Jesus, and.
(04:34):
And he goes, well, why don'tyou pray for me?
And I was like, man, I'd be.
I'd be honored to.
And right then my friend walks up.
Praise God.
You know, I'm not alone.
My friend walks up, and we'rein this country club, and I just
put my hand on his back, and I.
I start praying.
And as I pray, I say, and,Lord, if there's anything demonic
here at work, would you justbind it in Jesus name?
(04:55):
And when I do that, he startsconvulsing and make like, just like,
just, you know, convulsing,kind of making this movement.
And he begins to cough and.
And then he starts, you know,making this terrible noise in this
country club.
And his arms go up and he kindof starts contorting and.
And I'm just like, whoa.
People are like, were you scared?
(05:15):
I was.
I'm embarrassed to tell youthat I was.
I was like, oh, my goodness,what is happening?
And I'm saying stuff.
I'm like, lord, and just bindit in Jesus name.
But I'm in my head.
My internal narrative is like,please don't let it jump on me.
Please don't let it jump on me.
Please don't let it jump on me.
And he kind of gets louder andbigger and.
And then, you know, begins tocalm down, quieter, more still.
(05:38):
And so I say, in Jesus name, amen.
And he's just kind of likestanding there, like, frozen at that
moment.
And he just moves his head andhe goes, well, I didn't expect that
to happen.
I was like, that makes two of us.
Yeah, it was wild.
And so that was a.
That was a crazy experience.
But I was already writing thebook, you know.
(05:58):
Well, and I think there was agrace on you because you were willing
to embrace the entire Bibleand say, okay, we.
We know this is clearly there.
Of course we're not going tobe demon possessed or demon obsessed,
and we're not going to belike, you know, because I think sometimes
there.
There can become this unusualobsession with the demonic and like
you had already mentioned,attributing too much to it.
(06:20):
Right.
And an unwillingness toaddress the mental, the strongholds
we have to deal with ourflesh, our.
You know, and I think that ofcourse, the deliverance movement
in, you know, in the fringes,de emphasized, like, discipleship
and DE emphasized, you know,just walking in holiness and sanctification
and, you know, renewing yourmind and the daily disciplines of
(06:44):
reading scripture.
But then on the flip side ofthat, it's like, well, if in your
Christian experience nothingis ever demonic, then you will be
conquered by the enemy thatyou refuse to acknowledge.
And.
Yeah, and that's my.
Yeah, yeah, that's my journey.
I was, you know, I'm a Bibleguy and I, I taught the Bible for
over a decade.
And I, I mean, I'mexpositional, exegetical, like, let's
(07:08):
take a passage, chop it up,look at the Greek, look at the Hebrew.
And, and, but I'm reading thesame Bible you have, and I'm like,
man, Jesus encountered a lotof demons.
And so what do I do with this?
Am I, am I left to believethat this ended in the first century
and this isn't happening now?
And, and, and I, I, I believethat one third of the angelic realm
(07:30):
fell to earth, and thoseangels are now fallen angels, demons,
and where did they go and whatare they doing?
And, and if it happened, then,then is it here?
And is it, is, are wemisdiagnosing schizophrenia?
Is it, is all of that demonic?
And, you know, what do we dowith that?
And that, that really was thebeginning of this journey.
I mean, that question.
(07:50):
I remember a Christian said,Mike that, you know, he said, I was,
I was getting ready to go tochurch, and I, I, I got in my car
and it wouldn't start, youknow, and, and it was like, hashtag,
spiritual warfare.
And I was like, well,goodness, like, what can, like, and
it was his battery, hisbattery was dead.
(08:11):
I was like, well, can theydrain a battery?
Like, what can they do?
Did they have to pop your hood?
Do they leave your door open,leave the light on?
What did they do?
And I just, those were like,sincere questions, like, I don't
know.
And so I just started that,that trying to figure out.
And it turns out, you know,the Bible says more about spiritual
warfare than it does about marriage.
Yeah.
If I'm an honest preacher,then really my sermon series, you
(08:33):
know, should be 10 to 1,spiritual warfare to marriage.
Because it's, that's, that'show the, the scripture operates.
And, you know, to youroriginal question, Second Corinthians,
chapter four, verse four says,you know, if you ask a bunch of Christians
who's the God of this world,you know, we'll say Jesus, Yahweh,
Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Jehovah.
But Second Corinthians 4,verse 4 says that Satan is the lowercase
(08:57):
G God of this world.
And the good news is, firstJohn 4, verse 4, greater is he who
is in us than he who is in the world.
And so we don't have to beafraid, but we do need to be aware.
(09:47):
Yeah, that's why I love whatyou're doing, is you're, you are
raising awareness of this.
And, you know, I think, Ithink people who come from the camp
that I come from couldcriticize that.
And I, I love that you're,you're bringing a healthy balance
to that.
Just to say, hey, the enemy's real.
We Don't.
We don't need to make too muchof it.
We don't need to operate froma position of defeat.
(10:07):
But we do need to be aware.
You know, we do need to beaware that a lot of the bondage that
we're seeing is Satanic.
It is demonic, and we got tohave solutions for that.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, and I love the fact thatyou mentioned Jesus encountered a
lot of demons.
I've been rereading the bookof Matthew, and it's almost like
you forget how frequently hewas encountering demons until you
(10:29):
read the book of Matthew specifically.
And.
But it was just a normal thing.
And I think it's.
When you're ministering topeople, there's like an arsenal you
have.
And the thing I was talkingabout the other day is, like, what
do you do with the disablingspirit in the book of Luke, you know,
where it's like a spirit of infirmity?
One translation says, youknow, James chapter five is like,
if there's any sick among you,bring them to the elders, have them
(10:51):
anoint with oil and lay hands.
But then how do you know ifyou're dealing with something biological
or something supernatural?
And even for me as a pastor, Ihave to audit myself and say, man,
when I'm praying for sickpeople, am I ever attributing it
to a demonic origin, or is itonly biological in my mind?
Because a good minister has a repertoire.
(11:13):
It's like, hey, you need toapply discipline.
We need to get you on ahealthy diet.
We need to get you working out regularly.
And this is primarily adiscipline issue.
Then the next person like, no,regardless of discipline, this sickness
is biological, and we need topray for supernatural healing.
But then the other category,and I think it's Luke chapter 13,
(11:33):
is, you know, the woman who'shunched over for 18 years, and it
was like, Jesus did not say,you know, be made whole.
He literally cast out adisabling spirit.
And so you do have an instancewhere that was demonic in origin.
And I just think it's a wisdomthing, you know, And.
And then sometimes it's all three.
It's like, hey, the demonicinfluence caused a physical condition,
(11:57):
but then now you have to rehabyour body and go on a journey of
health after this prayer for freedom.
And I think what happened forme and is that just my willingness
to even acknowledge the fullministry of Jesus caused me to get
thrust into a deliverance camp.
And, jp I know we're kind ofgetting to know each other, but I
literally spent two years withTim Keller in New York City.
(12:20):
So it's like, that's GospelCoalition, you know, that's reformed
camp, you know.
And so it's weird because whenI, when people started, you know,
calling me a deliverance guy,I laughed because I was like, well,
I used to call myself a gospel guy.
And wherever the gospel isbeing preached, I do believe you
will see people gettinghealed, people getting free from
(12:41):
demons, people's lives being restored.
And there's a lot of, like,nuance in that.
And so I'm grateful for yourbook and conversations like this
because I feel like, you know,it's bringing a.
A wisdom.
I don't even want to use theword balance, because sometimes,
as you mentioned with yourfriend in the country club, like,
there's nothing balanced aboutthe fact that he's coughing and contorting
(13:02):
and a golf course, you know,and so sometimes people look at the
footage and there's like, thiscan't possibly be real.
And it's like, well, if it'shappening every single time you pray
for somebody, somebody'smaking it up, you know, like.
But it, but if you'refaithfully praying for people over
the totality of your ministryand never encountering the demonic,
(13:24):
I have to question some.
You know, even there's a greatJohn Piper story that he tells himself
of ministering to somebody.
And then it's very similar toyour story where it was sort of unexpected.
And so it's like, listen, ifJohn Piper has a deliverance story
and you don't, I don't carewhat camp you come from, like, you're
doing something wrong.
(13:45):
So, but, but let me ask youthis, because you minister to a lot
of people.
You talked about seeing someof these things happen overseas.
Then you had experience on US Soil.
What do you think is the.
What are you discerning is thespiritual climate in America right
now?
Like, why is this book.
Your story has a villain soimportant, particularly for American
(14:07):
Christians.
You said, we're getting toknow each other.
I know we're doing ministry intwo different contexts.
And so I, you know, two yearsago, my now friend Tanya Pruitt asked
me to speak at Deal at Auburn University.
I thought I was going to see600 college students.
(14:27):
And initially I said no,because it was just a short turnaround.
And then another personreached out and said, hey, would
you please do this?
That I knew.
And I said, sure.
And so I go there and.
And there were 6,000 college students.
And that night a bunchresponded to the gospel, and 250
were baptized and we.
It was amazing.
It was one of the highlightsof my ministry, and I thought it
(14:49):
was done, but Tanya had reallyprayed this movement into existence.
Little did I know.
I didn't know at the time.
Wow.
But then we went to fsu, thenAlabama, then Georgia, then Tennessee,
you know, and then.
And then the University ofFlorida and South Carolina.
And so now we've been to 13,14 campuses.
We're going to Purdue, we'regoing to West Virginia.
(15:13):
April 22nd will be at Baylor.
And we're seeing thousandsrespond to the gospel and hundreds
get baptized every single time.
So now I've prayed with over20,000 college students.
And so.
Wow.
I'm using the, the word revival.
I think we're in it.
I think it's happening in, in,in prisons and on university campuses.
(15:37):
I think it's happening on, in,in and throughout street conversations.
Some.
Much of, you know what, whatyou're doing and just where God is
anointing men, pastors likeyourself to have this international
global reach to declare thetruth of Christ.
I, I'll say.
(15:58):
I mean, you know, it's soweird because you're.
For your, your audience.
This may not be strange thingsto say for, for me and my background
and, and what I know, mytheological framework, my theological
foundation is such a strangething to say.
Pastor Mike, I think we are soclose to, to the return of Christ.
I think he's coming back and,and there's something being disrupted
(16:21):
in the spiritual realm right now.
Satan's not hiding anymore.
You know, you go back to that,that quote from Reservoir Dogs.
He.
He's no longer trying toconvince the world he doesn't exist
right now, at least in our country.
It just seems like he's.
He's showing his cards, he'sshowing up, he's.
He's doing work and, And Ithink he's.
I think he's really trying to,to wreak havoc, to, to terrorize,
(16:42):
to scare people.
And, you know, when, when yougo through Ephesians 6, the, the
spiritual armor and you havethe feet fitted ready with, with
the readiness of the gospel.
I think we have to, asfollowers of Jesus Christ, be armed
with the gospel and sharing iton the regular.
I think Paul there is, Isprobably chained to a Roman soldier,
(17:03):
and he's just, he's using thearmor to describe a normal Christian.
Yeah, like a normal Christianwill be positioned in truth and aligned
with righteousness, and anormal Christian is sharing the gospel.
And they, they have the shieldof faith, faith, and they're internalizing
salvation and they'reoperating with the sword of the Spirit,
which is the word of God, andthey're praying consistently that
God would move and act, thatthat's just normal for a follower
(17:26):
of Jesus.
And.
And my context is differentthan yours.
In the south, it's like,everybody thinks they're a Christian.
You probably live in a.
I'm.
I assume New York is morepolarized, where it's just like,
no, I'm not a Christian.
In the south, you know,everybody's a Christian.
And so I'm.
I'm evangelizing to people whohave gone to church their entire
life, really trying toconvince them that they're not a
(17:48):
Jesus follower so that theycan become one.
But, yeah, I think we'reseeing revival, man.
Wow.
Well, let me just say thispublicly, because there's been a
couple of times while you'retalking where I.
I feel like I want to weep.
And I was like, lord, what is it?
Because you're carrying such astrong external presence of the Holy
Spirit on you, and I reallywant to affirm it's your humility,
(18:11):
because you know that it'streacherous territory within your
circles.
And, you know, you're kind oflike, you're trying to honor and
acknowledge scriptures andserve people well.
And I just respect that sodeeply because I spent years, you
know, trying to be thePentecostal that went into the Reformed
camps or.
And I have a lot of dearfriends who are very ardent cessationists.
(18:34):
And you know what I love about them?
They know the scriptures.
They memorize the scriptures,spiritual formation from birth to
grave, and we can learn a lot.
I attribute a lot of thesuccess of my church.
You know, how do you get toseven campuses, six physical in eight
years?
It's like, because I stolefrom my Lutheran friends and my Presbyterian
(18:54):
friends and my Methodistfriends and my Baptist friends, because
there's so much value in thethings that they were doing.
And so I think for me to seeyou say, like, okay, there's a lot
of people who've tried tocancel the word revival, but how
else do we even explain what'sgoing on?
And at what point can we.
At what point who gets todetermine when we can use this Word?
(19:16):
And what I love about you islike, bro, when we're seeing hundreds
of college kids, you know,baptized thousands, except Christ,
can I now do I have permissionto use the word revival?
And of course, Pentecostalshave abused that word.
But I think it's like thisweird convergence is happening where
it's like, you know, I loveyou for your relationship teachings,
(19:37):
your marriage teachings.
And then when you stepped intothe spiritual.
The.
The spiritual warfare realm, Iwas like, oh, it's.
It's time to fight back toback on this.
Because there's something about.
There's a convergence, andyou're seeing people, regardless
of their denominationalaffiliation, start to say, wait a
second, let's become friendsin a foxhole.
(19:58):
Because there's nothing that'smore unifying than a shared enemy.
And when we start recognizing,like, we're not each other's enemy,
but Satan and these demonicforces are like, that's, to me, one
of the most powerful nextsteps we could take.
So I just want to say thispublicly because maybe our audiences
are different.
I embrace and affirm whatyou're doing.
(20:20):
There's tremendous value in it.
And just you're walking, Ithink, in a greater level of authority.
And it's a.
Both.
And because, of course, you'restill preaching all those other topics,
but it's stepping into this.
It's.
It's so needed, and it's justlike an extra toolkit.
So.
One last thing I want to say,and I want to ask you a question
about this.
I was in prayer the other day,and you reminded me, when you're
(20:42):
talking to me about Ephesians 7:6.
I had this vision in prayer ofthis exceedingly great army, this.
Which I believe is on theplanet right now.
And they were fully armored up.
They had their sword, they.
They had their shield, butthey were all shoeless.
And it was like this massiveshoeless army just barefoot.
(21:03):
And I feel like what the Lordis calling everyone to right now
is the shoes that speed thegospel, because there's something
about putting, like, when thearmy stops being shoeless.
And it's like.
And because what happens isthat does away with a lot of the
frivolous theologicalarguments, because it's like, when
you start preaching the gospelenough, you know, my friends who
(21:26):
are Methodists are like, oh,yeah, like, well, let me put like
this.
My friends who are Methodistswho preach the gospel have stories
of the demonic.
It's the.
It's my institutionalizedfriends who never leave the building
that don't have those stories.
So.
So to me, the lowest commondenominator is evangelism.
And that's why when you.
When I asked you tell me whatyou have to say about the state of
(21:48):
America, you answered with evangelism.
I'm showing up and I'm evangelizing.
And therefore, I needed towrite this book.
So if you could speak to.
Because this is a thing Iwould love for you to minister to
my audience is you are an evangelist.
You're also a pastor, butthere's something about you where,
like, you're a soul winner,and you're like, man, we need to
(22:10):
understand spiritual warfarebecause of soul winning.
And, and the thing that annoysme so much about people from my camp
is there they know everythingabout spiritual warfare and nothing
about evangelism.
So how would you speak to them?
Yeah, gosh, there's so much there.
I got it back.
I got it back way up.
Because when you were talking,I mean, I don't know what's happening
(22:32):
right now, but I, I gotemotional, too.
And I just, I think that, youknow, Pastor Mike and I met each
other because we, we disagreedon something, and I.
You know, what's so funnyabout disagreements is I can't for
the life of me remember whatit was.
Say it was like.
Like a year and a half ago or something.
And then we started talking.
(22:52):
And, and just as.
As brothers, do, you know, you.
We, we pursued peace.
I think that's why Jesusprayed for us that we would have
peace, because one of theenemy's tactics is disunity, and
he's trying to divide.
And the whole book reallystarts with a screwtape letter about
2020, where it just is, itjust seemed to me that they had unleashed
(23:15):
one.
They all came unified in theirstrategy of just divide.
Divide them racially,socially, politically, by gender,
by ideologies.
Just divide, divide, divide, divide.
And so I think what you'reseeing now is people locking arms.
And I loved what you saidaround a.
A common enemy, becausethat's, that's exactly right.
(23:37):
And will you please forgive mefor whatever bonehead thing I said,
you know, year and a half ago?
I don't even know what it was.
And I wish I could ask with agreater sincerity, but I, I.
Will you please forgive me,Pastor, for whatever that was?
Oh, man, now you get me choked up.
Okay, you want to hearsomething crazy, jp?
I don't remember what it was either.
And I, I, I promise you I don't.
(23:58):
I actually, I vaguely remember that.
And I think I hit you up or something.
And, And I was like.
At first, I was like, I'mgonna go back through DMs and see
if I can find it.
And then it was like,honestly, who cares?
I.
And I was probably wrong, too,so I want to apologize to you.
And, And I.
And I think when you talkabout unity.
Are you familiar with Jack Haford?
(24:19):
Do you remember him?
Yes.
You know, one of the things Irespected about him so much, he was
a mentor, is that he was like,interdenominational, you know, And
I.
And it's like, I really beenseeing a need for that in the earth.
And there's just somethingvery special happening right now.
And I want to be a bridgebuilder, not a bridge burner.
And I.
And I.
It's like.
(24:39):
It's like when you think aboutActs 2, they were in one mind, they
were in one accord.
You know, there's somethingabout that.
Or the Hellenist Greeks versusthe apostolic leaders.
Hey, do we feed the poor?
Do we preach the gospel?
And it's like, hey, guys, wedo both.
And I think we're entering aboth and not an either or.
And it's like, hey, if.
But.
But.
And it's almost.
(25:00):
It takes men like us with acouple of gray hairs, you know, lived
a bit of.
A little bit of life to say,hey, young people, what if you're
all right?
And what.
What if.
What if.
What if what you feel apassion for is what you're supposed
to go do?
And I go do my thing.
And I think what's sobeautiful about our story is, is
I didn't go to New York Citywith the intention of becoming a
(25:22):
deliverance church.
I.
And.
And I think that's evidencedby the fact that my first mentor
was Tim Keller, who's wayoutside of my circles, because I
was like, I want to make surethat I'm faithfully being a witness
to the gospel.
But then what happened was,this is the crossroads of the world,
and people are doing Santeriaand Obia and all forms of witchcraft.
(25:44):
And.
And they're really doing it asa form of counterfeit comfort.
That's the phrase I use,because it's like, most witchcraft
is not with the intention of,I want to be a witch, I want to become
a warlock, I want to be demonized.
It's.
I'm in deep pain.
And I think that this willsolve or at least medicate or help
this pain.
And so I basically startedrealizing that here in New York City
(26:06):
that they don't realize theHoly Spirit's the comforter.
And it's.
And so my definition ofrevival is actually.
It's an exchange.
Give up something that youthink is good for something that's
actually good, which is Jesusand the presence of the Holy Spirit.
And so when all this videostarted coming out of my church campuses,
stages filled with all thesenew age and occult items, I wasn't
(26:31):
trying to create a circus.
I wasn't trying to do it for publicity.
It was literally like, no, theNew Yorkers actually thought all
this stuff was going to helpthem through their grieving seasons,
their mourning seasons, their breakups.
And I gave them Jesus and they traded.
They basically said, oh,you're right, this is better.
And I see that with theApostle Paul, where it's like, you
(26:51):
have an iron workers guildmaking all these trinket gods, and
he starts a whole riot because he.
The statistical sales ofthose, those items go down.
And it wasn't that Paul said,hey, stop selling idols or stop buying
idols.
Paul was like, hey, yeah, Igot something better and it's free.
It's because Jesus paid it all.
(27:12):
And so I think what happenedwas I was kind of starting these
little mini riots online and whatever.
And I was like, I promisethat's not my intention.
You know, so you're in thisjourney now.
Let you know if we could havea few more minutes because this has
been so rich.
Your question too.
I still have an answer for you.
Yeah, yeah, I want to.
That's it.
I want to kick back to you.
(27:32):
Yeah.
So let me, let me say.
So that was.
The one thing is just thankyou for the grace there.
Then we used the wordscessationist earlier, just in case
your audience is not awarethat that root word of that is ceased.
And so there's, there'sdenominations and, and people who
believe that the, the signgifts have ceased.
This comes from FirstCorinthians 13, you know, where,
(27:54):
where there are.
They will cease.
And I don't think that's whatthat scripture is saying, even though
I've in, you know, decades agohave been tempted to believe that
at times, but I just alwaysknew there's got to be more.
There's got to be more of God.
There's got to be more of God.
And Jesus says, you know,greater works than these.
(28:15):
And I'm getting to the answerof your question, says greater works
than these, you'll be able todo these things in greater works
than these.
And so what, what everyfollower of Jesus listening has the
power to do is we can sharethe greatest story that's ever been
told.
It's this story of God gettinghis children back.
It's this story.
It's a rescue plan.
It's this story of the creatorof the heavens, the earth, losing
(28:38):
his children to sin, topornography, to vaping, to thc, to
cocaine, to lust, to greed, toenvy, just giving themselves over
to that.
And God says, how Should Ipunish them for what they've done?
You know what?
I'm gonna go into the world,I'm gonna rescue them, and I'm gonna
(28:59):
be.
I'm gonna be brutally murderedand tortured in their place.
That if they trust in me,Jesus Christ, then they will not
perish, but they will haveeverlasting life.
They will.
They will.
They will adopt.
They will be adopted in.
They will inherit a kingdomthat they could never deserve.
That's grace.
Never deserve.
And so this is the story thatwe're living, where the devil loses.
(29:23):
He's.
He's read the back of the book.
He knows that he's thrown intothe lake of fire.
So he's running this scorchedearth strategy.
Yeah, where he's justterrorized people.
When we.
When we, you know, bait.
When we, you know, sleep withstrangers, when we, you know, buy
things that we don't needrather than help the poor, when we.
When we try to build our ownkingdoms, demons receive that as
(29:46):
worship.
They.
They.
They don't need you to do aseance with candles and a pentagram
on the floor, drinking blood.
They'll take you just hurtingyourself under the banner of sin,
as worship.
And so when you sin, you letthem in.
You know, you give the devil afoothold, and footholds turn to strongholds.
And so when you consistentlysin, you're.
(30:07):
You're.
You're handing yourself overto the enemy to have his way with
you.
So when we come in with thegreatest message ever told, Romans
8:1, there is now nocondemnation for those who are in
Christ Jesus.
2nd Corinthians 5:19.
God is no longer counting yoursins against you.
I can say to the prostitutethat you can stand pure and holy
before God one day, notbecause of what you've done, but
(30:28):
because of what he did for youon his.
On your behalf through hisson, Jesus Christ.
And so the way that I'm.
I'm sharing the gospel is.
And I just would ask youraudience this.
I just say between 1 and 10,10 being certain, 1 being not so
sure.
If you died today, how certainare you that you would go to heaven
on that scale, as you thinkabout it.
(30:49):
And so the reason I do that isbecause 22 years ago, someone asked
me that, and I said, I'm a seven.
And the second question is, isif you stood before God.
And before I say thisquestion, I would just encourage
your audience to think of anumber between 1 and 10.
Anywhere in that.
In that scale.
If you died right now, howcertain are you that you would go
to heaven.
And so again, 22 years ago, Isaid a 7.
(31:11):
And the second question was this.
If you stood before God and hesaid, why should I let you in?
What would you say?
And so you can think about that.
And.
And I ask somebody that everyday of my life.
And I hear, because I wasgood, because I tried hard, because
I went to church, because Iwas a Christian, because I was in
a Christian family, because Idid this, because I did that, because
I.
Because I.
Yeah, and that's it.
(31:31):
I said, because I've triedhard, because I.
Because I'm a good person,because I want to do the right thing.
And they.
That person just shared withme the greatest news the world has
ever heard.
That it's not because I anything.
It's because God sent his son,Jesus Christ, to suffer and die in
my place.
And he defeated death andraised him from the dead.
(31:51):
And the same spirit thatraised Jesus from the dead is available
to me, that that spirit cancome and live in my life and show
me how to overcome temptation,that no temptation has seized me
except what is common to man.
And God is faithful.
He will not allow me to betempted beyond what I can bear.
And he will provide a way outso that I can stand up under.
(32:12):
And so the reality is I can beat 10.
It's first john 5, 13.
I write these things to youwho believe in the name of the Son
of God, so that you may knowthat you have eternal life, that
you can know the scripturesays you can know Ephesians 2, 8,
9, for it is by grace you havebeen saved through faith.
It's not of yourself.
It's the gift of God, not bywork, so that no one can boast.
But Romans 10, 9.
(32:32):
If you confess with your mouththat Jesus Christ is Lord, believe
in your heart that God raisedhim from the dead, then you will
be saved.
Not might be saved, should besaved, could be saved, will be saved,
but will be saved because ofwhat Christ did for us.
And so as I stand before God,and I don't think he'll ask this,
but if he did, why should Ilet you in?
I would say God.
You shouldn't.
You saw prom night and you saw.
(32:53):
You saw things I did.
You saw what I looked at.
You know, the kind of pornthat I preferred.
Before I was a.
A follower of Jesus, you know that.
That time that I got so highwith those guys and the things I
looked at and.
And when I was in that hotelroom where I'm wondering if anybody's
Going to know what I looked aton the tv.
You saw all the things.
But you, God, you pay forthose things through Jesus.
(33:16):
And so now I walk in thefreedom, not needing to hide my sin
any longer.
But as you said, James 5, Ican confess my sin.
That's it.
Confess your sins to others sothat they can pray for you, so that
you may be healed.
For the prayers of a righteousperson are powerful and effective.
And so I can now have thefreedom to confess my sin, to bring
it to the light and livetransparently and pursue righteousness
(33:39):
and pursue holiness becausehe's holy.
And so I think we have to beas we're armed with the sword of
the spirit, which is the wordof God, we've got to be armed with
the gospel of Jesus Christ andso that we can bring the dead to
life.
Come on, you're jpr.
You're on fire, man.
Seriously, like, that was so needed.
And I want to show you something.
This is not a plug, I promise,but, like, I think this will help
(34:02):
you understand how much of analignment there is in the body of
Christ right now.
So the book that I literallyjust released a couple months ago
because my publisher had askedme, like, hey, I want you to do a
book on freedom.
You know, what are the stepsthat you take your church through?
And I really sat with it and Iwas like, man, what is a title that
speaks to the gospel?
And because I think theproblem with the deliverance movement
(34:26):
is that it can teeter into aworkspace thing and people don't
understand salvation, theydon't understand the gospel.
And so I kid you not, youliterally said the word, which is
why I want to show it, becauseI was like, wow, this is so on time.
So the title is inherit your freedom.
And so it's the concept of,like, you don't, you don't earn your
freedom, you inherit it.
(34:46):
And I think a lot of spiritualwarfare insinuates I have to fight
harder.
And it's like, no, no, youneed to surrender deeper because,
like, the deeper you surrenderand that, that's where freedom comes
from.
And so literally, my book iscalled inherit your freedom, which
this is a low key rebuke onthe deliverance community, because
it's like, you know, we need,we need to learn how to inherit it.
(35:10):
Not just fight for it, butactually to understand that it was
already won and we can receivewhat was already won.
I think some of these things,themes like inheritance versus, you
know, earning it throughworks, it brings correction and alignment.
And we know the devil hatesthat because he wants people to think
that they're always going tobe bound.
(36:25):
They're always going to be,you know, got to cast more demons
out so that.
So your book inherit yourfreedom, which I love that title.
One thing I'm doing at these,you know, at these gatherings, unite
gatherings and collegecampuses is I'll.
I'll take something, you know,like a.
Like a.
You know, it's just like.
Like candy, or I'll.
(36:46):
I'll pull out a 20 bill orsomething and I'll just say, hey,
hey.
Is anybody gospel with you?
Is anybody here?
Like, hey, I'm trying.
You're like, man, I'm trying.
Like, I'm trying.
I want.
I want to believe this.
I'm.
I'm trying to live theChristian life.
I'm trying.
I'm trying.
I'm trying to accept Jesus.
I'm trying to be a Christian.
Anybody feel that and that,like, their hands will go up and
(37:08):
I'll grab somebody, like,usually on the second or third row,
and I was like, come up here and.
And they'll just walk up tothe stage and I'll.
And I'll hold out that, youknow, Snickers bar or whatever it
is, and I'll go, I want you totry to take this.
And they'll take it.
And I'm like.
I'm like, okay, no, no, giveit back to me.
I want you to try to take it.
And they'll take it again.
And I go, no, no, no, give itback to me.
I want you to try to take it.
And they're so confused, and,you know, thousands of people are
(37:30):
watching them, and.
And then they take it again.
And I say, you can't try totake something that's being freely
given to you.
Wow.
You can take it or.
Or you can leave it.
Those are your options.
You can take it or you canleave it.
In Luke, chapter 18, and thestory is repeated throughout the
Gospels, but in Luke 18, hesays, unless you receive the kingdom
(37:50):
of heaven like a child, youwill not enter it.
So he says, you receive thisgrace that he's bringing that Jesus
is giving you free.
He's like, here it is.
And you can say, I want it, oryou can say, I don't want it.
But there you can't really getstuck in the.
Trying to receive it.
The choice, just because ofthe podcast that you're listening
(38:13):
to right now, it's your choice.
You can say, I want that, andI accept it.
In the name of Jesus, I accept it.
Or you can say, I do not wantthat, and I reject it, but you're
brought to a conclusion there.
Man, I'm so thankful, sothankful for you having this conversation.
And, and thank, thank you forwriting that book.
(38:34):
And man, Pastor Mike, I'm justgrateful for you, man.
Oh, come on.
I, well, the feelings mutual.
And I'm so thankful for you.
And this was like a reallypowerful, insightful conversation.
And I love how it's like,listen, Jesus Christ disempowered
the enemy.
And so let's not empower him.
You know, let's not give him ajurisdiction that was already taken
(38:54):
away.
And a lot of it is justenforcing what Christ has already
given us access to andstanding in that authority.
And I love that that's whatyou did with your friend on the,
on the golf course.
It's like, hey, I'm enforcingwhat's already been won.
You know, you have access tofreedom and you, you have to inherit
it, which is.
And I think our culturestruggles with that because we're,
(39:15):
we're grinders, we'rehustlers, we're workers.
Like, we understand the wagesof sin is death.
We understand wages because weknow how to earn a grade in school.
We know how to earn a paycheckat, at our job.
But the gift of God is eternal life.
And we're just bad gift receivers.
And you know that.
And I think even that journeyabout, we talked about cessationism,
(39:37):
it's like, man, there.
These are the gifts of the spirit.
And so it's like the, the realquestion is like, are we becoming
good gift receivers?
And I love your heart, becausea heart that's open to the gospel
is a heart that becomes opento the gifts.
Because it's like, I receivedthe gift of salvation.
What other gifts do you havefor me?
And so I, I love that.
(39:59):
You know, there's that versethat says deliverance is the children's
bread.
And so, you know, I love thatconcept of it's.
It's a gift.
And so, you know, you're a pioneer.
You're a forerunner.
You're bold, man.
You're.
You're a risk taker.
I applaud you for that.
And just stepping into thisterritory and it's, it's just funny
how, you know, in God's divinewisdom, he's bringing guys like you
(40:21):
and I together for such a timeas this.
And, man, I do believe that's something.
You know, I know.
Of course, people have beensaying Christ is going to come back
for a long time, but it's likewhen a woman is in, in those birthing
pangs, the, the frequency, theintensity and the duration of those
contractions are signaling tohow soon it is.
(40:41):
And I think we both agreethat, man, this, this world that
we're living in, we need books.
Like, your story has a villain.
We need to unmask and unveilthe enemy.
We need to be equippedbecause, yeah, it's, I mean, even
in secular scientificcommunity, they've, they've moved
the Doomsday Clock to 11:59.
So it's, you know what I mean?
So it's like, it's like, youknow, Christians are like, oh, we're
(41:04):
not in the end times.
It's like, I don't know,scientists who, atheistic scientists
believe we are.
So, you know, and that'ssomething that I've been looking
a lot into.
So I want to give you thefinal word.
And you know, if you just wantto, you know, people read your book
and I believe many of them aregoing to Amazon, they're getting
it right now.
And what do you hope that theydo on the other side of it?
(41:28):
You know, because my bookdeals a lot with like generational
inheritance things that youdeal with at, you know, the epigenetic,
we take a look at thebiological, the spiritual.
And so I want people to, Ibelieve that family is revival and
the enemy hates family.
Family.
He hates strong f.
He hates fathers in the home.
And so my book is like, man,God's design for humanity is family.
(41:50):
And my, my, my hope is that.
So when people read your storyas a villain and they're buying the
book, now they're getting thebook, like what are they doing and
what's the result of it?
Yeah, I think I would justimplore you as, as the Apostle Paul
did.
And I, I really think that inEphesians 6 he's describing the authentic,
(42:13):
real deal Christian.
And so I would say, walk inrighteousness, stay in step with
the Spirit, pursue holinessbecause he's holy.
Not, it's not legalism.
Like Tozer said, the churchwill be at the height of its heresy
when it calls obedience.
Legalism.
Like, I'm not talking aboutrules, man.
I'm talking about arelationship with your creator through
Jesus Christ that you wouldremain in step with him, that you
(42:35):
would rid your life of anyunholiness that you would drag into
the light, anything indarkness, if there's an abortion
that you thought, hey, I'mgoing to take this to my grave.
I'm never going to tellanybody about this time.
I got too drunk and did thingsthat I never thought I would do.
I, I would bring it to the light.
I would tell believers, Iwould have them pray over you.
I would renounce the enemy andI would walk in the spirit.
(42:56):
I would trust in Christ.
If you haven't, surrender yourlife to Jesus Christ and, and then
stay in step with the spirit.
You know, find, find a Bibleteaching church.
Plug in there, you know, serve there.
Become a, you know, be amember there.
Get other believers around youand live the fullness of the Christian
life.
Because the thief comes onlyto steal, kill and destroy.
But Christ has come so that wemight have life and have it to the
(43:17):
fullest, have it abundantly.
And so the Christian life isnot boring.
Listen, I've drank deeply fromthe world.
Like, I've had the sex, I'vedone the drugs.
I, I lived in the penthouse condo.
I drove the car and had adifferent watch for every day of
the week, week.
And I have found somethingbeautiful in Jesus Christ.
Like, and I'm no, and I'msober minded.
And I'm just telling you,there's no turning back.
I found something good inJesus Christ.
(43:38):
Burn the ships.
Let's go.
You know, and, and I, I wantthat for everybody that's listening
to this right now.
Come on.
Oh, so powerful, man.
And you know what?
That's it.
I, Even for all the faults andfailures of this deliverance movement
or whatever's happening, onething that I've experienced kind
of being invited into thatworld a little bit over the last
several years is a real heartfor holiness, you know, and, and
(44:02):
people just saying, man, Iwant to live right.
I don't want to have thesethings in my life.
And, and I think what I loveis like, how gracious you've been
with this conversation and,you know, being willing to understand
that.
And, you know, I, I really do.
You know, think about how he'sreturning for a bride without spot
or blemish.
But he's the one who does the,who irons out the wrinkles, he's
(44:23):
the one who removes the blemishes.
We just got to submit to that process.
And so it's like, man, God'sbringing these book resources like
your story has a villain,like, you know, inherit your freedom.
And I just think what that'spointing to is, hey, the, the bride,
he's working on the pride.
He's, he's getting usincreasingly ready.
So I'm excited to hear all thetestimonies in the chat, guys.
(44:45):
I can't wait to see what youhad to say about this.
We, we love getting into thecomment section.
And you'll have to come back.
We'll have to go round two, goa little bit deeper and all this.
We're going to have you onbecoming something, and it's going
to be awesome.
Come on.
Yeah.
It'll be fun.
Yeah.
Because I got so many morequestions for you, but I know that
we're busy men, but we'll haveto reconnect.
(45:06):
We'll do part two.
We'll keep the conversation going.
So thank you so much, my joy brother.
Thank you so much, Pastor.
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