Flat Earth, The Book of Enoch, False Prophets, and Signs of True Revival with Dr. Michael Brown

In this powerful episode, Pastor Mike Signorelli sits down with revival scholar, theologian, and frontline voice Dr. Michael Brown to deliver a wake-up call to the Church. If you've ever asked, "What is real revival?" or "How do we sustain it?" — this episode is for you.

🔥 With decades of experience from the frontlines of Brownsville and global movements, Dr. Brown doesn’t just talk about revival — he’s lived it. Together, Pastor Mike and Dr. Brown dismantle false revival hype, address the pride that kills movements, and expose the deceptions threatening the Body of Christ today.

• A true biblical definition of revival (it’s not what you think)
• Why you can’t schedule revival — and what happens when you try
• The danger of pride and celebrity culture in revival spaces
• How to discern between emotional hype and authentic Holy Spirit fire
• The growing deception of Kabbalah, numerology, and esoteric teachings in the Church
• Why the Book of Enoch and Flat Earth theology aren’t biblical
• Why fruit that remains is the only revival metric that matters

📖 Dr. Brown also shares insights from his latest book, Seize the Moment: How to Fuel the Fires of Revival, offering 25 powerful principles to help leaders and believers alike steward the move of God without burning out or veering off course.

💬 “Revival that makes you bigger is not revival at all.”

💬 “You can no more schedule revival than you can schedule an earthquake.”

👇 Visit Dr. Michael Brown’s ministry and get equipped:

👉 thelineoffire.org

🌍 Get more teachings, tools, and resources from Pastor Mike at www.mikesignorelli.com

Mentioned in this episode:

School Of Prophets

The School of Prophets provides prophetic community, classroom learning and real world experiences to refine the gift to be released into true prophetic ministry. It is made up of the prophets guild, a community of prophets, learning, growing and holding each other accountable around the world. The original School of Prophets (1100BC) was meant to instruct and deploy prophets to the tribes, cities and nations they were called to minister to. They would bring the voice of the Lord to rulers and leaders as well as the people of God. This school carries a sacred call to equip the prophets to encourage, build up and exhort the body of Christ. What to expect in the SCHOOL OF PROPHETS? SOP Global Community Prophetic Mentorship and Coaching Calls Powerful Biblical Teachings Weekly Live Community Gatherings Monthly Live Activations Recorded Lessons Released every Month Private Community Access Access to all resources: prophetic guidebooks, prayers, pdfs, etc Prophetic Accountability ENROLL NOW!

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The Breakers Conference

BREAKERS CONFERENCE is a movement of warriors contending for revival to come to our cities, freedom to break out in our circles, and salvation to sweep through our regions. Throughout history we’ve seen God move mightily when believers come together and we are lifting up our voices to the Lord to ask "Do It Again". Will you answer the call to stand in a seat and ask God to break open the...

Episode Transcript

(00:33):
Well, Dr.
Michael Brown, thank you somuch for being on the broadcast.
You know, before we jump inand talk about your new book, I just
want to just.
This is going to be an amazingconversation, but I want to start
by you defining what exactlyrevival is.
You know, I made a movieentitled the Domino Revival, and
I was able to ask, you know,some of the most premier leaders

(00:54):
and revivalists of ourgeneration, people who are movers
and shakers, and they all hadsuch a different definition.
And we try to show that in the movie.
But, man, I have been dying toget the answer directly from you
as somebody who has beenlaboring, you know, for this definition
and somebody that's, you know,I go back in the archives of your
life and all the things thatyou've accomplished for the kingdom,

(01:17):
and I feel like, man, ifthere's anybody's definition about
what revival is that we need,it's yours for this generation.
So how would you define it?
Yeah.
In its essence, revival is aseason of unusual, divine visitation.
Everything flows out of that.
People talk about God steppingdown from heaven, or Jesus came to

(01:39):
our village.
The Holy Spirit indwells us asbelievers as we worship.
The Holy Spirit's in our midst.
On a certain level, God fillsthe heavens and the earth.
And yet in times of revival,it's a season of unusual divine visitation.
God comes with intense power,with intense conviction, with intense
transformation.

(02:00):
Everything is amped up.
The salvations are radical.
The deliverance is radical.
The repentance is the deepestyou've ever seen.
The joy is the highest you'veever seen.
And you can say, it startedhere and it ended here.
That's when we talk about theWelsh Revival from 1904 to 1905,

(02:20):
or I was part of the BrownsRevival from 1995 to 2000.
It's not always absolutely clear.
Sometimes it can wane ortransfer out in different ways in
terms of the ending.
But something happened.
God came, and it's thisunusual visitation.
Things you prayed for andlonged for and cried out for, sometimes

(02:43):
for generations.
Suddenly, they're happening infront of your eyes, and it's as if
everything in the Bible thatyou knew was true.
It's really true.
It's really happening in frontof your eyes.
It's almost like you call yourfriend after a Sunday service and
say, jesus is al.
We all know.
He's like, no, no, no.
He's really alive.
He's really.
He's in the car with me.

(03:04):
It becomes that real.
And that's why in a shortperiod of time, you can often see
more things happen just, justin, in a month of revival than you
see in years and years of yourbest work.
So you have to do what you doday by day.
You know, look at it that you,you walk all during a time of famine.
You walk miles and miles to aspring and to get water to carry

(03:27):
it back.
But, oh, if you could get somethunder showers, think of what would
happen.
That's what revival is like.
Oh, that is so deep that thatdefinition is rich and it's needed,
you know, so one of the thingsI do on my broadcast is really just
blow up the deceptions.
And, you know, there's so muchin the body of Christ as, you know,

(03:47):
people, you know, can beincredibly manipulative.
And leaders use the termrevival in know.
One thing my wife and I havebeen grieved about for years and
years is this concept that,you know, churches will use the term
revival almost as like a moneymaker, you know, and, and, and you
know, I know we're, we'rejumping right in.
But, you know, there's thisconcept that we've observed where

(04:09):
people are like, oh, we'rehaving a revival, and then it's like,
how many offerings can wecollect in the revival week?
And my wife and I are, arekind of like old school Pentecostals,
I guess.
And, and so where we comefrom, as we got older and then we
became lead pastors, we.
We noticed that some pastorslegitimately have a heart for revival.
And yet there were otherpastors that it seemed as if their

(04:31):
annual revival was more of anannual fundraiser that they were
using the term revival for.
And so, you know, what is yourconcept of churches holding revivals?
And I want to be fair.
I believe, you know, some havean authentic, real heart for it.
I think others, it's more gimmicky.
You know, what, what's yourthoughts on that?
You can no more hold a revivalthan you can hold a hurricane.

(04:54):
You can no more schedule arevival than you can schedule an
earthquake.
Revival is not something thatpeople work up.
Revival is something that Godsends down.
And Mike, when we moved, soI'm in New York originally, then
lived in Maryland, outside of D.C.
and then moved down toPensacola, Florida in my early 40s.
My wife and I are family.
And it was a shocker to see,kind of the church custom that maybe

(05:18):
August you'd be driving downthe street, you'd see A sign revival
September 11th to 15th, therewas a schedule for next month.
And then you see another signrevival September 18th to 20th.
And it was just a custom meetings.
Were holding a series ofspecial meetings with a special speaker,
special music and, yes,special offerings.
And now here's the problemwith it.

(05:39):
Let's put.
Let's just say it's all legit.
It's not a bad fundraising thing.
It's okay.
The problem is you getemotionally psyched, you get charged,
you get.
Yeah, yeah.
But nothing really happens onthe inside.
There's not a real deep,lasting encounter with God.
And that now produces adownward trend because after the

(06:00):
emotional high, there'snothing to carry it.
Revival absolutely ties inwith emotion, of course, but it's
emotion because of anencounter with God and the truth
of the word.
And that's the massive difference.
Look, if it was that easy toproduce the revival, we wouldn't
be reading about revivals in history.
Wow.

(06:20):
We wouldn't be praying foryears and years and years for God
to visit.
Now there's the other error onthe other side that Charles Finney
encountered.
Finney, who lived from 1792 to 1875.
Finney encountered the otherside, which is there's nothing you
can do to bring about a revival.
God just sovereignly sends it.
When he does so, you kind ofsit on your hands.

(06:42):
No, you do what you know howto do on a day to day basis.
Love God, love your neighbor,win the loss, make disciples while
you cry out and say, God,there must be more.
Our city's going to hell.
Our young people are turningtheir backs on you.
Our nation doesn't know youbecause the light is not shining.
Oh, God, visit us.
And the reason I wrote my newbook, Seize the Moment, is because

(07:05):
when God comes, it's a unique thing.
You don't want to miss it.
And early on in theBrownsville revival, there was an
article in Charisma magazine.
So you have to remember thiswas in 1995.
It was right before the cellphone Internet explosion.
So news was not happening andspreading instantly the way it is

(07:26):
now.
Right.
So I read in the article aquote from Steve Hill.
Steve and I knew each other.
He was the evangelist God usedto ignite this.
Steve and I knew each otherthrough our mutual friend, Leonard
Ravenhill, author of theclassic book why Revival Carries.
I had been very close toBrother Len the last five years of
his life.
The most extraordinaryrevivalist man of prayer I ever met.

(07:50):
And he had these cuttinglittle sayings.
His famous question, are thethings you're living for worth Christ
dying for?
Or the man who's intimate withGod will never be intimidated by
man These sharp little sayings.
And when Steve was asked incharisma, why did you cancel all
your preaching meetings allaround the world?
Why did you stop what you weredoing and just stay here in Pensacola?

(08:13):
He said, the opportunity of alifetime must be seized during the
lifetime of the opportunity.
And I said, that sounds likeRavenhill, but I never heard him
say it.
So I called his widow, Martha,and she said, no, she didn't hear
him say it either.
When Steve and I got totalking, he said, mike, a few weeks
before Len had his stroke andthen subsequently died, he turned

(08:35):
to me one day and said,stevie, the opportunity of a lifetime
must be seized during thelifetime of the opportunity.
Because Steve would bepreaching in Columbia.
He'd been a missionary inSouth America.
He'd be preaching in Columbia,God moving it.
And he'd come back and tellLeonard Ravenhill, brother Len, I
felt like revival was rightabout to happen.
I felt like if we stayed a fewmore days, we could have a visitation.

(08:57):
And Len said to them, why areyou here?
Why'd you leave?
So when God visited inPensacola, it's because you can't
just hold it, you can't justproduce it.
You can't just turn it on.
If it was that easy,especially in America, we would have
it every day.
We would package it.
We would have Internet revivalcoming your way now, live streaming

(09:18):
in three.
No, you can't do that.
You can pray, you can cry out,you can do what you know how to do.
But then God comes, thatseason of unusual visitation.
And the very first thing thatnormally indicates something unusual,
there's this presence thatwasn't there and nobody wants to
leave.
A colleague of mine inColorado, when he heard about Asbury

(09:40):
last year, they were having amove of God in their church, but
he was hungry for more.
And he said, God, what about us?
And they started on Sundaymorning and ended 8 o'clock the next
morning.
The service just went on.
And people stayed through the8:00 clock.
Literally almost a 24 hour service.
Yeah.
And then, because revivalcomes to set things right, remember,

(10:02):
it is reviving, it is bringingback to life.
Like Jesus says to Sardis InRevelation 3, you have a reputation
for being alive, yet you're dead.
Laodiceans say, I'm rich andpriest involved, have need of nothing.
You don't realize you'rewretched, pitiful, poor, blind and
naked.
Right?
Ephesus, you've left yourfirst love.
So it is a bringing back tolife of God's people.

(10:24):
And that's why the next thingyou almost always see is deep conviction
of sin.
Exactly.
Because something is wrong andthe Holy Spirit is exposing it.
And then out of that, you havethe radical transformations that
bring joy and freedom.
And then as the church ischanged, our witness is now changed.
And now you see that samespirit coming down in the workplace.

(10:47):
You start to see the radicalconversion of sinners.
This is what happens.
And when you see God moving,you can't say, well, we'll just meet
again next week.
No, no, we're not going anywhere.
Or, let's meet again tonightand the next night.
And before you know it, thething can be going on for months
or years.
I love that.
I absolutely love that.
Well, guys, I want to show you this.
It seize the moment.

(11:07):
This is the.
The new book.
And there's an urgency behindthis book.
You know, that's why I have Dr.
Michael Brown here on thebroadcast, because there is an urgency.
And I know you spoke about that.
You know, 25 year history to Brownsville.
For those of you who saw theDomino revival movie.
You saw that we went toBrownsville and conducted services
there and had some reallypowerful moments.

(11:29):
You guys can go back in thearchives and see Doc.
Dr.
Michael Brown there, you know,in real time.
And so you kind of have thislineage, this history of revival,
different epicenters in theUnited States.
You mentioned Asbury.
But there's like an urgencyright now, and I felt it.
You know, when this book camein, there was just something different.
Seize the moment.

(11:49):
And.
And so can you maybe talkabout why now?
Like what?
You know, let's talk aboutthat moment.
Because for me, people,somehow or another, I got sucked
into the deliverance movement.
And I thought it was hilariousbecause I never considered myself
a deliverance guy.
I always consider myself adeep repentance guy.
And I was going around thecountry drawing people to a place

(12:12):
of absolute surrender andrepentance and trying to communicate
the extremity by which Christcommunicated repentance, right?
Like, hey, if your hand won'tstop sinning, cut it off.
So the rest of your body goesto heaven.
You know, that type of language.
And one of the statements thatI went viral for is 99% obedience
is 100% disobedience.

(12:33):
And so I really went acrossthe country calling people to 100%
surrender.
And then in the midst of thatrepentance, demons would manifest
like crazy.
And somehow that sucked meinto the deliverance movement.
I'd say, well, I'm a gospelguy, not a deliverance guy, but wherever
the gospel is being declared,I Think with that level of wholeheartedness,
like, hey, what would it looklike if we actually said go and sin

(12:56):
no more?
You know, instead of juststruggle with it for the next 25
years?
Because I think here inAmerican evangelicalism, we've excused
our sin and we've really, youknow, kind of played with it and
went more the route of, like,motivational speaker versus, you
know, radical surrender.
And so for me, I was goingaround the country doing that, and.

(13:17):
And I felt that urgency.
You know, even the impetus formy movie was being in prayer here
in New York City and seeing avision of this huge domino being
pushed down.
And then each domino wasdropping around the country as people
were saying yes to Jesus wholeheartedly.
And so, you know, I.
I feel like there's somethingstirring in the spirit.

(13:38):
I'm connecting with that.
I know you are as well.
So maybe you could talk about,like, what are you sensing?
Why.
Why the book now?
Yeah.
So let me just briefly go back.
What was happening in Brownsville.
Yeah.
God had promised me in 83 thatI would be part of a revival that
would touch the world.
Wow.
And I longed and prayed andcried out and everywhere I traveled

(13:59):
preached repentance and theselong altar calls of people crying
out to God, surrendering theirlives and representation.
So when Brownsville came, itwas the dream come true that the
thing that I've been longing for.
And you have to picture this.
A traditional assembly of Godchurch in the south.
Pensacola, not the easiestcity to get to.
It's only got a regionalairport, and people would get outside

(14:24):
the building, standing onlinebeginning at six in the morning to
wait for the doors to open at6 in the evening.
This went on for years, butthe services started seven in the
evening to go past midnightevery night.
I mean, it was extraordinary.
More than 300,000 differentpeople repented at the altar.
We had people from 130 nations coming.

(14:46):
And it wasn't known for divine healing.
It was people getting rightwith God, thank God for healing,
but that wasn't the focus.
So in the midst of therevival, you know that there are
many things that can hinderrevival that can cut it short.
And it's this very holy linethat you walk to give place to the
spirit, but not to disorder,not to the wrong things or you don't

(15:10):
want to get burnt out and exhausted.
And anyway, in the midst ofit, towards the end, I started to
write a book on all the thingsnot to do if you wanted to see the
move of God continue.
I just started writing it, andThen got caught up in other projects,
then revival ended there.
I never got back to it.
When I was teaching one day inNew York City about 20 years ago,

(15:33):
I just felt the spirit say tome, you're going to need to finish
that book.
Wow.
And I said, that means I getto be in another move, that I'm going
to see it in my lifetime.
So I began to Sense probablyabout 2019, I was very grieved because
I said the state of America.

(15:54):
I don't need to go on and talkabout the state of the nation.
We all live here and the stateof much of the church in the nation.
But in many ways, we becomebetter known for scandals.
We become better known for superficiality.
We've been become better knownfor political support than we have
for being gospel people livingholy lives.
And it brings reproach to thename of the Lord.

(16:17):
We're watching the youngergeneration get sucked up by the world
in crazy agendas.
TikTok has done a better jobof discipling our kids than.
Than many of our many of us have.
So it's an urgent time.
We know that.
And I was grieved because Isaid, we're not seeing the hunger
and the thirst and thebrokenness in the body to equal the

(16:38):
urgency of the situation.
And I've seen much more ofthat in the years leading up to Brownsville.
I started to see somethingrising in late 2019, I began preaching
on God coming as a refiner's fire.
And the next thing, all hellbreaks loose.
In2020, we had Covid, we hadthe race riots, we had the political
upheaval, the events ofJanuary 6th, the whole nation shaking,

(17:02):
and then scandal after scandalin the church.
I'm not saying this to throwstones at people.
And it was only subsequently Ilooked back and thought, the refiner's
fire has been working andbringing all this stuff up to the
surface.
And then I began to see Mikein my.
In my mind's eye.
Not an open vision, which Idon't have, but just a clear picture

(17:22):
of my mind's eye.
I saw thousands of holy firesall over America.
I didn't just see aBrownsville or a Toronto.
I saw thousands of placeswhere God was moving all over America.
And I said, okay, this nextmove is going to be in thousands
of different places, andpastors and leaders who have never

(17:42):
experienced this are going toneed some guidance.
And I've got to get this bookfinished because I've been in it.
I've been in the thick of it.
I've lived it out.
And here are 25 principles.
If we'll hold to these, ifwe'll live these out as pastors,
leaders, as individualbelievers, then the fire that falls
we can cultivate.
Leviticus 6.
Yes, I was just going to askyou about that.

(18:04):
Yeah, it must not go out three times.
God says that.
Why?
Well, on the one hand, itsymbolized 247 worship of God.
But on the other hand, whenyou read through the end of the ninth
chapter, the first fire on thealtar was sent by God.
God sent the fire, and Godconsumed Aaron's sacrifices.

(18:25):
So the fire on the altar wasdivine fire.
So God said, never let it go out.
Let it not be man's fire, butGod's fire.
So I felt I've got to finish.
Seize the moment.
I wrote the book to come outend of last year, ended up getting
released at the beginning ofthis year.
But a year ago, I got on the air.

(18:47):
As I had been traveling acrossAmerica, I was in church after church
that's experiencing a move of God.
Not because I was there, I waswitnessing it.
Young people flocking to thealtars, people repenting and getting
right with God.
Spontaneous baptisms every week.
And I said, okay, the firstwave of this next revival movement,

(19:07):
it's already here.
Obviously you had a thrivingchurch, many others, but I was seeing
it in so many places.
And because of my daily radioshow, we've got a wide range of listeners,
right?
A lot of hardcore Pentecostalcharismatics, others.
I'm the only charismatic theytrust, skeptics, mockers, critics,
the whole bit.
So I am circumspect inproclaiming things.

(19:28):
But I got on the air and Isaid, listen, it's very clear to
me, and I want to say it.
The beginning of the firstwave of the next revival has hit
America, and we're in theearly stages, but it is the beginning
of the first wave of the next revival.
Eight days after that, Asburyhappened and I got back on the air

(19:49):
and I said, hey, hey.
Did I tell you or did I tell you?
That was just a divineexclamation point.
And it's not supposed to justbe one place.
Of course, soon enough it gotshut down with everybody flocking
there.
But we are going to be seeing this.

(21:11):
And literally, if we don't getthis right, if the Church of America
does not broadly embrace whatthe Spirit is doing, that could be
the end of America as we knowit, Right?
It literally could be the lasthope, the last breath of America.
And when you mentioned DominoRevival for years.
I had this internal vision foryears because God promised me that

(21:34):
I would see a gospel basedmoral and cultural revolution in
my lifetime.
We need to be some kind of pushback.
And that can only happenthrough revived church.
I saw dominoes falling in thenegative sense.
Wow.
Falling across the country interms of moral and spiritual collapse.
But then I saw through thegospel move the dominoes standing
back up across the country.

(21:56):
Come on.
And the only way that canhappen is with a revived church.
Right.
So this is it.
As God's moving, God moves inyour local church, God moves in your
life.
You've got to seize the moment.
You've got to.
You've got to pour fuel on thefires of revival because this literally
could be the last breath for America.
Yes.

(22:16):
I almost started weeping whenyou were talking about Leviticus
6 because, you know, that'ssuch a theme recently.
And you know, for those of youthat watch, I mean, I've amassed
hundreds of thousands offollowers by releasing prophetic
words that would then come to pass.
And I don't regard myself as aprophet, but just simply somebody
who says, okay, God, what areyou doing in the earth?

(22:36):
How can I narrate it?
And so last Sunday, I wassharing with our church.
You know, I'm originally from Indiana.
David Wilkerson was, you know,kind of originally from the Midwest
as well.
So God has a way of likeexporting us to New York City, I
guess.
But.
But I had this vision of thiswave hitting New York City.

(22:57):
But when I first got to NewYork, so I had been raised around
Lake Michigan.
So a lake is very differentthan the ocean.
And I remember trying tobaptize our first disciples here
in New York City.
And I didn't realize that the,that the water recedes.
And so you could be standingup to your waist in water, but it'll
recede all the way down to the sand.
And we were basically pushingpeople into the sand, missing the

(23:20):
timing of the waves in theearly days of the church.
My point in saying that thoughis this Sunday I was on stage and
I started feeling in thespirit like that recession where
there was a drawback beforethe formation of a large wave.
And I really felt like theLord was telling me to tell my church
that, that.
That drawing is a drawing backto intercession, a drawing back to

(23:44):
prayer, a drawing back tofasting and longing and desperation
and repentance.
Repentance.
Because before you ever seethe formation of a wave, there's
a.
There's a drawing back.
And I really feel like what we're.
What's happening right now,and I want to really honor the vision
that you gave, is that manypeople are feeling drawn to prayer,
drawn to the secret place.

(24:04):
I've been getting hundreds ofmessages from people in our text
community, in our emailsaying, I'm at work and I'm just
using my entire lunch break to pray.
You know, I'm.
I'm literally underneath mykitchen table and with, you know,
just praying.
I'm finding myself in thebathroom praying.
And I believe God is reallyuniting people on a heart level for
this desperation.

(24:26):
And, you know, generationally,when you talk about seize the moment,
and you said, I was there, youknow, I was there in Brownsville
and I made a manual for revival.
Guys, this is more than just apromo for the, For a book.
This is a general in the faithwho has a lifetime of experience
that God is putting in thesebooks now for so that we don't miss

(24:47):
it.
Because the fastest route toextinguishing a revival is from know
it alls who try to impose, youknow, and I think there can be an
immaturity.
And I'm speaking to themillennial pastors and the Gen Xers,
you know, and, and this.
I think sometimes what willhappen is we ignore the.
The wisdom of the sages thatGod has in this generation.

(25:10):
And Dr.
Michael Brown, I want to honoryou publicly right now, and I just
want to commission everybody.
The link is in the chat.
It's in the description ofthis video.
You've got to get seized the moment.
Don't assume that you'vecornered the market on revival.
And I think there's a littlebit of arrogance, and I just kind
of feel led by the Holy Spiritto speak into this now.
A little bit of arrogance.

(25:30):
You know, you go to people'sInstagram and they have, I'm a revivalist,
you know, and, and.
And it's like, I'm not tryingto kill the passion or kill the desire,
but I am trying to kill the pride.
And I think there's a level of humility.
I mean, seize the Moment asmandatory reading for V1 church leaders
and those that are underneathmy leadership.

(25:51):
And so can you maybe speak tothem, the people watching right now,
about, you know, don't assume,you know, don't assume that you're
the expert on revival.
You know, why the necessity toreally get into seize the moment.
Yeah.
So here's the reality.
It would be one thing if I wassitting on the sidelines talking

(26:12):
about these old days inPensacola and, you know, Sitting
with nostalgia.
I'm on the front lines, man.
I'm burning as great as I'veever burned.
Exactly.
I'm seeing God move whereveryou reach America, around the world.
I just came back from India,my 29th trip there, and the brother
said that they were mostimpacting meetings that they've ever
had.

(26:32):
That's it.
I'm in the thick of this now.
And I'm shouting as loudly aswe can, as I can.
Look, I've lived in it, in theintensity of revival for four or
five years before that, andoutpouring for three months and six
days that got cut short.
That's what put thedesperation in me when I saw things
get cut short.

(26:53):
Even at the end of Pensacola.
Everything God did there was atemporary split between the pastor,
John Kilpatrick, and meleading the school.
One reason is we got soexhausted, we were going 70, 80 hours
a week for years and years and years.
And I preached about this.
I preached about the danger ofoverworking yourself, but thinking,

(27:14):
you know, this is different.
No, no, it's never different.
There are no exceptions.
The same with sin.
You realize, hey, the same waymy good friend fell, and this one
fell, I could fall.
When I teach you about sexualimmorality, that's the first lesson.
It can happen to you as easilyas anybody else.
If you play with fire, youwill get burned.

(27:35):
And I've watched now, youknow, I'm almost 69 years old.
I'm fresh and ready to run.
I work out with guys in their20s and they throw up.
I mean, I'm doing my best tobe a good steward because the best
years are right ahead, and Iwant to be ready for the decades
to come.
But please hear me.
I've watched all the peoplecome and go.
I've watched the shooting stars.

(27:57):
There was this great poem byAmy Carmichael called Scars.
If you've never read it, justsearch online.
She was a missionary to Indiafor decades and died there.
And she's like, oh, yeah, weheard you're the rising star.
But you don't have any scars.
You have any scars.
And I've watched.
Oh, this one's different.
This move is going to bypass repentance.

(28:18):
No, it does.
There is no move that bypasses repentance.
Yeah, come on.
It may be that people are sobeaten down and discouraged that
God just pours out love andgrace and love and grace to get them
healthy enough.
But as soon as they're healthyenough, you better believe he's gonna
claw out the surgeon's knifebecause Sin in our spirit is far
more deadly than cancer in our bodies.

(28:40):
I've warned the peopleprivately, and for whatever reason,
they don't hear.
It's interesting.
My online constituency.
And by God's grace, we're ableto reach millions every week, or
online constituency, thenumber one demographic, aside from
Facebook, which is a lot ofolder ladies, is 25 to 34 years.
That's it.
So I'm talking to a youngergeneration, Gen Z, millennial all

(29:02):
the time.
This, again, is not just.
I'm sitting on the sidelineswishing for the old days and jealous
for those succeeding.
No, I want you and everyone inyour generation to do things I've
dreamed about.
But look, when I used to teachin New York city in the 2004, 5,
6, when I used to preach forDavid Wilkerson in the 90s regularly,

(29:23):
there were times when I wouldwalk the streets of the city late
at night for hours, prayingfor revival, praying for God to come.
And obviously I was one tiny element.
So many others prayed.
I want to see God do seethings through people whose names
we don't know.
Let Jesus be glorified.
Let him get the credit.
That's not it.
But when I stand by people andwarn them and say, you cannot do

(29:45):
this with the flesh, right?
There are no celebrity pastors here.
Come on, you cannot bypass the cross.
And they're like, no, no, lookat our success.
And then I watch them crashand burn.
And I'm not there to say, Itold you so.
I'm there to say, hey, let'spick up the broken pieces.
But there are no exceptions.
What struck me when Ioriginally put together a list of
30 items that ended up makingthem 25 for Seize the Moment, how

(30:08):
to fuel the fires of revival.
I went and read Finney'ssermon on hindrances to revival,
and I think he had 20.
And I was amazed at how muchoverlap there was.
It's because it's the same principles.
We cannot play with fire.
You read the Book of Proverbs.
I don't care who you are.
I don't care how famous you are.
I don't care how big yourplatform is.
I don't care how fast growingyour church is.

(30:30):
If you don't follow theprinciples, if you let your personal
devotional life get eroded,you'll fall.
It's going to happen.
If you let pride enter in.
If you think, I've got themethod and I can control it, and
on the contrary, I've seenpeople who've honored the Lord who
kept the Fire burning in theirprivate lives, who walk in humility,

(30:52):
who welcome the Holy Spirit,who are grounded in the word, and
decades later, they're burning bright.
And their churches arehealthier and stronger than ever.
I'm not impressed with ashooting star.
I've been around too long for that.
I long to see lasting fruit.
And Mike, every single week inthe revival because God would come

(31:13):
in power and bodies would beflying as we laid hands on people
at the end of the night, thepower of God was there.
Every week we tell people wedon't care if you shake or fall.
The only question is, one yearfrom now, how are you living?
Right.
The question is, how are youliving when you walk out this building?
And Steve Hill will tellpeople the true test of revival,
the true test of an evangelistis five or ten years down the line.

(31:36):
Right.
I can introduce you to ourworkers all around the world who
were touched in Brownsville 25years ago or longer and have been
on the mission field bearingfruit and burning bright for over
25 years.
That's what I'm talking about.
Yeah.
Not just a momentaryexcitement or people were blessed
for a few weeks.

(31:56):
I'm talking about decades downthe line when you raise your kids
differently because you weretouched as a child yourself.
That's what we need to see,that kind of lasting fruit.
And it does not come throughplaying games or thinking that we're
the big shots or we figured itall out.
Look, we can have social mediafollowings of hundreds of millions.
The biggest social mediafollowings in the world are celebrities,

(32:19):
but they're not changing the world.
So we have the numbers, butour lives being changed.
Is there lasting fruit?
And as a word based person,you know, that's.
That's what matters.
That's it.
Are the foundation solved?
Because otherwise it's goingto be here today.
Watch it grow, watch it collapse.
Or it's going to be massive innumbers, but there's no substance.

(32:39):
Right.
So what does Jesus say in theparable of the sower in Matthew 13,
in Mark 4 and Luke 8, thatwhen trouble and testing comes because
of the word.
Yeah.
Then they quickly follow it.
Well, what if trouble andtesting doesn't come for years?

(33:59):
What if you build this greatthing filled with people, but if
there's not the foundation of repentance.
Right.
Once the shaking comes, thatcould be 10 years into your ministry.
Everything's going to be gone.
And then what?
Oh, well, I asked you toassassinate pride, and I will tell
you mission accomplished.
That was so needed, thoughsome of you Guys need to replay that

(34:20):
whole section of thisinterview over and over and over
to get that in your spirit.
Because John, chapter 15,first fruit that remains.
That's been my number one prayer.
You know, we have enougheloquent sermons.
We've got people who are goodwith words, wordsmiths, but we desperately
need fruit that remains.
And I love that you justpretty much unloaded your clip on

(34:41):
Pride.
Because, you know, real quickstory is I.
As I was touring the country acouple years ago, I had a very humbling
moment where I came crawlinginto an event in the Pacific Northwest.
I just didn't feel it.
I was personally discouraged,I was wore out, I was tired, and
I just got up on stage and Isaid, you know, I'm just going to
sort of get through this, God.

(35:02):
And that's not my.
Everybody who knows me knowsI, you know, I go all in and I leave
it all on the altar.
And.
But that particular event, Isaid, you know, God, I just can't.
And it was a quote unquoterevival style event.
They had brought me in large10 event.
And here's Mike Signorelli,the revival revivalist.
And I just said, God, I justdon't have anything left in me.

(35:22):
And I'll tell you what, I gotup there and it was like, immediately
the Lord just began to do whatonly he could do.
And there was like a fragrancethat just released over that tent.
And I'm not kidding, oneperson came out of a wheelchair,
I mean, another woman, she hadbones removed in her inner ear when
she was a child and had lostall of her hearing.
And miraculously, it was acreative miracle she received hearing

(35:45):
in her ear.
And they're bringing thesepeople to me.
I did nothing, doctor.
I did nothing.
And it was one of thosemoments where the Lord said, you
think you're so advanced.
You've traveled the entirecountry but without saying the prayers.
You always say them, you know,with your, your formulaic prayers,
without your, you know,because I kind of had a sequence

(36:07):
like you said, and part of it.
And I don't know if my goodfriend Vlad Softchuk is watching,
but Vlad had been to the eventright before me.
And I said, hey, Vlad, whatdid you do?
And he said, oh, I kind of didyour move.
You know, I started withrepentance, then people surrender
drugs and this.
So part of that was like, oh,Lord, what am I going to do?
You know, that was my plan.
And Vlad took my plan, whichwas really the gospel.

(36:27):
So I shouldn't have been mad.
But I again, I say that to saywhen those miraculous healings started
to take place, I mean, one guytook his hearing aids out, threw
him on the ground on stage,was like, I have full hearing.
It was one after another.
And it was in the midst of myown personal frustration, my own
tiredness, and in the midst ofa lack of any sort of formula.

(36:49):
I mean, it was just the Lorddoing it.
And I think for me, that was ahumbling moment where it was almost
like God was showing me howlittle he needed me.
And so.
Oh, yeah, you know, And I justwanted to pause and say that because,
Dr.
Michael Brown, we're living inan era where people are putting their
identity in being a revivalistand not being a son or a daughter.

(37:10):
And it's like, you know what I mean?
Or being a disciple.
What happened to me towardsthe end of the revival is God really
was revealing flesh in my own life.
And one of the lessons for mewas that I had.
I had always put all my trustin God.
And if you don't help, if youdon't anoint, if you don't give me

(37:30):
words, I can't even open mymouth and speak.
And yet there was a subtleself confidence joined with a God
confidence.
And God had to burn that outof me.
And really, as we got as therevival waned, some God really began
to reveal flesh that was in mylife and brought me to a new place
of repentance.
And part of that was in thebusyness and intensity of being in

(37:52):
powerful meetings where theSpirit's moving and you're on your
face in worship, weeping andGod's touching people through you
that you can neglect thesecret place.
You can get so caught up inthe busyness of life and ministry
that you miss the beauty ofpersonal devotion.
I remember one night early inthe revival where I had to confront

(38:14):
a brother about something andrather than respond to me respectfully
in any way, he kind of barked back.
It was just a shocker the wayhe responded.
And right after that, it wasafter the altar call, after everyone
got personal ministry.
Now we went to lay hands onpeople who wanted prayer.
And I hadn't lost my temper,but I was so shocked.

(38:35):
It would be like a kid cursingout their parents.
Like what?
I was so shocked.
I was agitated in my spirit.
And they said, Dr.
Brown, Dr.
Brown, time to pray for people.
And I'm thinking, not tonight.
I got nothing in me.
And I said, okay, the wholeteam's there ready for me to go praying
for people.
I'll pray for a few Nothingwill happen.
I'll say, hey, for somereason, it's not happening tonight.

(38:57):
I'll go home.
The first person I touched,it's like God crippled the intensity.
And then the next and then.
And I was in a state of shock.
And God said to me, it's not you.
It's not your power.
Power coming through your.
A man of God, powerful, youknow, or you know, you got healing
in your head.
No, it's nothing.
God used me once to pray for people.

(39:20):
In an obscure meeting in Canada.
They'd driven for a while froma reserve.
We call it a reservation.
They had a little church there.
It was a community of 1200 people.
They had a little church thatwent through a split and now they
had two tiny churches.
They were deeply discouraged.
Out of the thousand or sopeople I prayed for that night after
the repentance and gettingright with God were these Native

(39:44):
Canadian people.
Just out of the whole crowd,they went back.
Encouraged by the Lord, theystarted holding meetings.
I had three differenteyewitnesses confirm this to me.
One year later, threedifferent separate, independent people,
they went back, had meetings.
God moved.
They said, let's go another night.
Let's go another night.
Let's go another night.

(40:04):
They finally got so exhausted,they brought in local pastors, one
of whom I met.
A year plus later, they went on.
One year later, 1150 out ofthe 1200 people had professed faith
in Jesus.
The most extraordinary storythat I've ever been personally part
of.
I got this testimony and Itold my wife Nancy, you know what

(40:27):
her first words were?
She said, and you can't takeany credit for it.
Those were her first words.
She said, think of all thethousands of people you prayed for
and that never happened.
Yeah.
And it's God working throughhuman vessels.
And the moment we think, lookat me.
Power of God anointed.

(40:47):
No, no.
The moment we put trust innumbers or following or anything
like that, then we miss God's heart.
And I mentioned early in 2020,preaching on the refiner's fire.
So I'm in a church of about6000 in California Preaching on God
coming as a refiner's fire.
At the end of the service, wehave this massive altar call, people

(41:08):
repenting, get right with God.
And I knew it's one of thesesacred moments where God wants to
take it a step further.
And I said, some of you willnot be free until you get up on stage
and take the mic and publicly confess.
I don't want you to embarrassyourself, but I knew it was one of
these sacred moments when Godwas doing that.
So the next thing, there's awhole line of people, old and young,

(41:30):
weeping, shaking and testifying.
You know, I've been in drugministry, but I'm on drugs myself.
And next thing, they're weeping.
Everyone's surrounding them,praying for them.
It was amazing.
I get back to my hotel room,I'm so charged by the spirit.
I thought, okay, I'm not goingto chill or anything.
I just got to get on my kneesand pray some more.
As I'm praying, suddenly Istart getting these thoughts about

(41:53):
ambition and pride.
I wanted to be somebody.
This is 2020.
I mean, I'm in my mid-60s, right?
I'm thinking, where is this?
This is filthy.
This is ugly.
But it was so real.
I journaled it all.
And then I realized I justpreached under a refiner's fire,
and God just sent the.
See, that's why people getuncomfortable with real revival,

(42:16):
because the refiner's firebrings stuff to the surface we didn't
even know was there.
That's it.
And now it's like, hey, Icould either humble myself in get
low.
Like many pastors would bringtheir congregation to Brownsville
because their people needed afresh touch.
And at the end of the service,literally, they are the first ones
not walking to the altar,running to the altar, weeping to

(42:39):
repent and get right.
What's their congregation thinking?
He's been in adultery, he'sbeen stealing.
It could be God.
Just conviction of prayerlessness.
But the conviction is sointense, it's like Isaiah undone
in the presence of God.
So if revival makes me bigger,it's not real revival.
If revival somehow lifts me upand my reputation, then it's become

(43:04):
polluted along the way.
If revival makes me lessdependent on God and less in love
with him and less intimatewith him.
And now it's this thing I cankind of navigate in merchandise.
Woe to us.
Because this is sacred, sacred stuff.
And when God moves, you know,and I've had that exact same thing.

(43:25):
You're exhausted, you're jetlagged, you've got nothing.
And God moves and he remindsyou, it's me, the Excellency of the
power.
That's what Paul writes is in Urza.
That's it.
Yeah.
So that God gets the glory.
And that's the great lesson.
And one of the lessons that Ilearned through my own weakness in
Brownsville was God's strengthis made perfect in our weakness.

(43:47):
Yes.
And we know it.
I knew it.
Intellectually, I could teachon it.
But I learned it on a deeperlevel, and the more quickly we can
recognize that it's not anexcuse for sin, God forbid, but it's
the recognition that it'sGod's strength, it's God's power,
it's God's grace.
That's why even if you hearabout a leader, unless there's a
tangent, some leader who fell,or maybe they were living a double

(44:10):
life, and you think, but theirbooks really bless me or their music
really blessed me.
Well, it was God through them.
It was never them.
Right.
It was never God used them,but it was God's grace and God's
gift.
Just like SAMSON In Judges 16,he sleeps with a philistine prostitute,
and then he gets attacked andhe carries the gates on his shoulders.
That's a very scary passagebecause the gift still operated.

(44:34):
There was still a divine gracein him, but then his sin led to his
downfall.
So putting even revival aside,do not be seduced by the success
of ministry.
Do not be seduced by thesuccess of numbers.
The more God uses you, theless you think of yourself and the
more you realize it's hisgrace, and the less you feel liberty

(44:57):
to play with sin and mess withthe world.
Oh, that is so good.
And I know we're in the finalstretch here, guys.
We're saving the best for last.
So make sure you do not clickoff of this.
I, I.
And I want to see you in thecomments section because this has
been speaking to me.
You know, a lot of people askme, pastor Mike, you know, how this
person fell?
This person fell.
But what were the salvations real?

(45:18):
Were the healings real?
And I say, yes, it's more areflection of.
In an affirmation of God'slove for the people who are being
ministered to than hisapproval of the minister, you know,
and so God will use somebodyeven when there is sin in their life,
not, not as an affirmation ofthat person's sin, but more an affirmation
of his love for the peoplereceiving ministry.

(45:40):
And that's what makes itdangerous, is that you could.
Ministry is one of the fewjobs that you could stay in it for
a long time.
Well past the time God alreadyfired you.
You know, it's.
And because you just keepgoing through the motions, and I
don't want to be that guy.
And this conversation's beendeeply convicting and, and that was
my prayer.
But because we can't play withrevival, you know, we can't monetize

(46:04):
revival, we can't market revival.
And.
And so even for me, you know,making the movie, and I don't want
to ruin the ending, it'sgetting ready to go to digital distribution.
But my attempt with the moviewas to take all of that selfish ambition
and turn it on its head.
You know, where people get inthere and then they're like, oh,
you know, and.
And really, even when we did the.

(46:25):
We actually did the moviepremiere, and I had all the cast
of characters and some of themost significant voices with the
biggest platforms all in one auditorium.
And when that last scenerolled, it was like the organic response
was everybody hit their knees.
I mean, we had viral footageof it.
People just weeping, ballingtheir eyes out, saying, God, let

(46:46):
it start with me, you know?
And so my prayer has been thatat this point in this.
This conversation, that peopleright now are like, I don't even
know if I can keep watching.
I just need to begin to pray.
I do want to ask you a fewquestions, though, just as we get
ready to close it down,because one of the things I love
about your ministry is how youjust demolish strongholds, and I
think God has used youpowerfully to just dismantle that.

(47:09):
You're a perfect convergenceof, you know, the anointing of God,
but also, you know, intellectual.
I think about Paul, who'slike, sometimes I come with a cunning
of words and other times ademonstration of God's power.
And I.
I've always loved that aboutyour ministry.
So if you don't mind, ifyou've got time for just a few more
quick questions, we could justquickly demolish some strongholds.

(47:30):
That is that all right?
Perfect.
Okay.
And guys, by the way, we wantyou to subscribe to his channel.
We're going to have all thatlinked in the description as well,
so you can grab the book andalso subscribe to his channel.
He's got so many teachings, sothe things that we're talking about
here.
Also, he's got videos indepth, which I'll link to.
But right now, something thatI've been seeing is this Jewish mysticism

(47:53):
and Kabbalah creeping into the church.
You know, where do you seethis happening?
And could you speak on that?
It's a superficial fascinationwith things that they know absolutely
nothing about.
The first thing is to reallyunderstand Kabbalah and Jewish mysticism.
There's even a Jewishtradition that Jewish men can't even
begin to study it untilthey're past 40 years old because

(48:15):
it can be so esoteric.
So even with all my knowledgeand background and studies that I've
done.
Mysticism is still a veryesoteric thing.
So the Kabbalah and the stuffthat people get, it's just this poor
man's version of a trinket ofsomething that somebody passed on.
And it has nothing to do withscripture, it has nothing to do with

(48:36):
spiritual revelation.
It's generally based on theless you know, the more you talk
about it, in short, becausethe more you knew about it, the less
you would actually talk aboutit or tie it in with the gospel.
So you're going to find thisnumerology or, you know, try to derive
meanings of, you know, fromHebrew letters and things and it's,

(48:58):
it's all bogus.
People that know Hebrew wellknow it's bogus, but then when you
go to expose it, you getcalled the Antichrist and false prophet
because people get so caughtup with the sensationalism.
I'm thinking, isn't God'sliving word enough?
Isn't relationship with theHoly Spirit enough?
Why do you need this cheap nonsense?

(49:18):
It's frivolous.
And then when you tie it inwith prophetic words, it's deception
added to deception.
Yeah, I mean, just briefly,what do you think people's fascination,
I mean, calling a year, youknow, something based on Hebrew numbers
or the Alphabet, like, youknow, what is the fascination?
Why are they drawn to that?
Is it just a lack of personaldiscipline to study the word of God

(49:40):
that we have?
And it's just, is it theemotionalism that's connected to
it?
Is it that it's sort of acounterfeit or, or how do I put this?
Like a, it runs parallel tolike a psychic medium, New age kind
of thing.
Like why do, why areChristians so, You know, it's like
you post a video about, we'regoing to go through the book of James
and you get five videos andthen you post a video about some

(50:01):
esoteric mystical aspect andyou get a million views.
What is that, that phenomenon?
Yeah, you know, there's theprinciple in Proverbs 9, that's that
that food eaten in secret isdelicious, that something that's
stolen has a certain allure to it.
Or, or Jesus rebukes it inrevelation to Satan's so called deep

(50:23):
secret.
One of the early heresies thechurch dealt with was Gnosticism,
this special knowledge.
So anytime, just like aconspiracy thing, hey, I've got insider
information that has a certainallure to it, or a deeper spiritual
truth by which we can predictthe future.

(50:43):
No, there is this completelyidiotic, one of the most idiotic
pathetic, nonsensical videosI've ever seen in my life.
And people started to ask meabout it.
Dr.
Bryant, have you seen this?
Have you seen this?
Have you seen this?
So I go, of course.
It's millions of views andit's laying out why Jesus is coming
before the end of 2023.
This is a video posted in 2018with a book based on the first word

(51:09):
in Genesis, bereshit in Hebrew.
Based on alleged numeric valueof the letters, this was now laying
out the whole plan of redemption.
Every so I watched the beginning.
Every single point made was bogus.
It would be like saying yourname is Mike Jones and you're from
Mars and your parents live in Paris.
Every part was factually bogus.

(51:31):
And then I said, the only goodthing is it's got dates.
So I said, I guarantee youJesus is not coming by the end of
2023.
Here's what I want you to do.
I want you to archive myarticle and I want you to archive
this video and I want you tosee which one ages better.
It's this.
It's this fascination.
It's this.

(51:52):
And, and I think if people hada vibrant personal relationship with
God.
Yeah, we're grounded in theWord and we're bearing fruit.
Seeing people come to theLord, lives touched, that would be
so consuming and so life giving.
They wouldn't have time forthis trivial nonsense.
Oh, that's so good.
Okay, I've got two morequestions because this is this.
Obviously I could talk to youall day, but I've got to respect

(52:13):
your time.
But I have two more questions.
Super quick question.
So obviously me kind ofgetting sucked into the deliverance
world.
There's this huge fascinationwith the book of Enoch.
Why was the book of Enoch notcanonized in the 66 books of the
Bible?
Right.
So what people need to knowoutside of the Ethiopic canon, parts

(52:34):
of the Ethiopian church thatrecognized Enoch.
Enoch was highly esteemed byearly Jews and early followers of
Jesus, but it was neverconsidered part of the Jewish canon.
So what you have to understandis there was not a formal process
where 50 people sat around and voted.
It was more organic that,okay, here are the words of Moses

(52:57):
and now this is the book thatGod gave.
And now God has verified thatbook through the Exodus.
So these are sacred.
Now here are words of theprophets or words of the apostles
that became recognized by the people.
So Enoch number one does notall go back to Enoch.
We know for sure that althoughthere may be words like Jude quotes

(53:17):
and go back to him thatotherwise there's much in Enoch that's
not going back to him.
It's called pseudepigraphical literature.
It would be like me writing aletter to the church From Mike Signorelli
100 years after you're gone.
You didn't really write it,but it's in your name.
And I try to write it, it's inyour name.
So there are parts of Enochthat are clearly later than Enoch.
So it was falsely attributedto him.

(53:39):
Also, it's produced in betweenthe Old and the New Testament.
So basically the canon of theOld Testament is closed.
It's not part of the NewTestament canon.
So it was a respected book.
Just like shepherd of Hermosor Epistle of Barnabas.
These were respected books,but they never became part of scripture.
So as you go through in theearly church, as they're listing

(54:00):
different books, this wasnever part of.
Of, you know, one of thestandard lists that they agreed on.
So it's not that there wasthis conspiracy to keep Enoch.
And there are lots of thingsin it that are very interesting and
that shed light on certainthings that were happening in the
1st century in Jewish thought.
But it was never part of the Bible.

(54:21):
It did not get excludedbecause someone took it out.
It was never part.
So in a certain level, it cameat the wrong time.
In between the Old and NewTestaments, it contained material
that was pseudepigraphical, inother words, not really going back
to Enoch.
And it may have some otherideas that are not exactly orthodox.
So it never made it in.

(54:43):
You know, it's like the guythat didn't make it into the major
leagues, it wasn't because ofhis last name.
It wasn't because of his funny beard.
It's that he didn't quite playwell enough to make it.
So it's a very interestingbook, a compilation of several books,
actually.
Yeah, it's interesting toread, but that's it.
Yeah, it's not scripture.
It's a great answer.

(55:03):
Okay, this last question, I'mgoing to probably lose some subscribers
over, so I'm going to takethis risk with you right now.
I just want to say I'm in itwith you, but I'm probably going
to lose some subscribers andI'm going to have to tell my wife
that the next couple daysafter this are going to be hard couple
days for me.
So why is.
If you're willing.
If you're willing, you can bowout of this.
We'll.
We'll delete it.

(55:24):
But why Is the idea of theflat Earth not biblical?
Okay, you talk about something nonsense.
So I'm not a scientist, Idon't claim to be a scientist, but
did the sun rise where youlive today?
It did, yes.
Okay.
That's observational language.
We use observational languageto this day.

(55:45):
The sun rising, the sun setting.
But we know.
Unless you actually believethat the sun goes around the Earth
as a flat Earther, which Idon't think flat Earthers actually
believe that the sun goesaround the Earth.
So unless you believe that,you recognize the Bible uses observational
language, talking about to theends of the Earth or to the corners,

(56:08):
it uses other observationallanguage or just kind of conceptions
of the time that it's built onfoundations, or do we actually believe
that there are foundationsthat have.
If there's a flat earth andyou went.
There's like a table with legsgoing out of.
No, but if you want to read itliterally, that's what you have to
read.
On the flip side, you can readin Job where he hangs the earth on

(56:30):
nothing.
You read in Isaiah where Godsits on the hoog of the Earth, which
is the circle or the sphere ofthe Earth.
And people use that to say theBible knew that the Earth was a globe.
It's not talking about.
The Bible is not there to makescientific observations about the
shape of the Earth.
And if you want to readthrough all the different foundations,

(56:50):
you'll see many, manydifferent descriptions.
Some of it's poetic language,and others is just observational
language.
And for people to, you know, Italked to a guy, a solid Christian,
who was an astronaut who tookmore pictures of the Earth than any
human being in history.
You know, so when you talk tohim about the flat Earth, having

(57:12):
circled the Earth endlessly,endlessly, and looked at it, documented
and taken pictures, you think,what are people thinking?
What concerns me, though, isnot people misreading the Bible and
misunderstanding the Bible andforgetting that it uses observational
language.
So I see the sun set, the sun rise.
Remember this.
If the Bible was attempting togive accurate scientific information

(57:36):
about every statement that itmakes, I don't mean it speaks falsely,
but it can just use different language.
Then all the years up until usdiscovering that the Earth went around
the sun rather than someonearound the Earth, if the Bible said
two, three thousand years agothat the Earth goes around the sun,
every person in the worldwould have thought the Bible was
wrong because scientificknowledge had not caught up.

(57:58):
Then when it catches up, oh,now the Bible is right.
And what if 500 years later welearn something new and it keeps
developing.
So the purpose of scripture isto teach us about God and to tell
us how to live before him andnot to make these random scientific
observations.
So again, if I presented everysingle picture and we wanted to take

(58:20):
it literally, you'd end upwith something maybe a kind of a
globe or maybe more flat,sitting on actual physical pillars.
It's not what it means.
And the concern to me is notthat people believe something weird
or stupid.
In other words, it's not goingto hurt them following Jesus, but

(58:42):
it makes us look idiotic.
It further brings reproach tothe gospel.
Yeah.
So if you hold to a flatearth, just let it be between you
and God.
Don't announce it to the world.
We have enough obstacles to overcome.
Let not that be added to it.
Well, listen, listen, if youlose a lot of followers over that,

(59:02):
just like I lost a ton offollowers when I went after QAnon.
Yeah, those people are notworthy of following you, man.
Come on.
That's it.
You guys heard it first hereat the Michael and Mike show.
You guys, you got.
Well, you know, one of thetravesties, one of the first travesties
I experienced here in New YorkCity when I first moved here was

(59:24):
being evangelized to on the streets.
And they didn't know I was apastor and a preacher.
So I said, yeah, you lead meto Jesus, let me see what you got,
you know, and they were kindof taking me on that journey and
exchanged numbers with me.
So they don't, they don'trealize they're talking to a full
blown lead pastor of a churchthe whole time.
And I wasn't trying to lie,lied to them, but I wanted to see,
like, what, what is this all about?
Well, long story short, theyended up being a cult that believes

(59:47):
that every time the phrase thebride of Christ is being used that
there was a literal bride.
Like, so they took that phraseas if it was.
There was one woman whomarried Jesus Christ and she is the,
the bride of Christ.
And me trying to convince thatentire cult in Queensland that that
is figurative language, that'ssymbolic, obviously of the collective,

(01:00:11):
of all of us who've accepted Christ.
I mean, was like, beat my headagainst the wall.
I was unsuccessful.
I did.
I just, I want to tell mylisteners, I, I did not successfully
dismantle that cult.
But it just goes to show you,using the limitations of language
and, you know, faultyargumentation, they're, they're able
to amass a whole audience andbuild a whole cult.

(01:00:31):
A New York City, and there'schurches that rightly divide the
word, that can't even keeptheir doors open out here.
So, you know, the deceptionruns deep.
Thank you so much for talkingabout, you know, the.
The usage of the, you know, wewould be on physical pillars that.
Listen, guys, rewind that.
Watch it a couple more timesbefore you send us hate mail.

(01:00:53):
And let me just say this.
It's in the book.
Seize the moment as well,because revival comes with such intensity.
You can get caught up with themanifestations or just deliverance,
Right?
Yeah.
And everything becomes aboutdemons or, you know, the latest viral
video kind of thing, whateverit is, or some esoteric angelic revelation.

(01:01:14):
Major on the majors.
That's it.
The whole reason I earned aPhD in Semitic languages was to better
study scripture and understand.
I love to dig deep.
I love to dig, and I love toexplore and study and learn and want
to be like that all my life.
But the more I go on, the moreI'm drawn to the center, the more

(01:01:37):
I major, the more I want todiscover who Jesus is and the wonders
of the nature of God and thedepth of the wisdom of the word of
God.
And then practically, how dowe live this out?
That's it.
And that.
That forever and ever and everis going to be enthralling, is going
to be overwhelming.
You know, like the elders, youknow, you picture it at the throne

(01:01:59):
of God, and they're saying,holy, holy, holy, right?
And they're casting down theircrowns, but they're continually doing
this.
So the mental picture I get isthey, you know, they cast the crowns
down, they worship, and thenthey kind of get resettled.
They put the crown back ontheir head, and they look up like,
oh, they get a freshrevelation of God and it's new every
month.
Oh, and they're overwhelmed.
The holy.

(01:02:19):
And they throw the crowns downand they kind of get settled, and
that's what happens in revival.
Oh, God, it's real overwhelming.
So major on the majors.
That's it.
There's enough there, enoughmeat to dig into.
And I'm constantly justreading through the Word after all
these decades, learningsomething new about the basics, and
that's it.

(01:02:40):
Insight.
Wow.
I never knew that.
I never saw that.
It's so rich.
Don't get lost in the weeds.
No, it's so good.
I was just telling ourcongregation, you know, the further
you go in Christ, the moresick, simple you become.
I thought I was going tobecome more complicated, but I want
to pray more, I want to readthe Word more.
I want to serve more.
It's like maturity in the faith.

(01:03:00):
It doesn't make you more complicated.
It makes you more simple.
So here's what I want you guysto do.
We have seize the moment.
I've got this in my hands.
You need to get this book inyour hands.
I want you guys to all getthat book.
I want you to subscribe to his channel.
But also, he didn't ask me todo this, but we believe, believe
in sewing.
So even above and beyondgetting the book, I want you to sew
into his ministry.

(01:03:21):
We got the link that's pinnedas well.
Thank you so much.
It's been over an hour, which.
This has honestly been one ofthe fa.
My favorite conversations I'veever had on my channel.
So, guys, make sure that yousubscribe here if you're new and
share this with people.
Share this.
You know, one of the ways thatyou can destroy deceptions in people's
lives is to say, hey, thereare those who have been faithful

(01:03:43):
that.
That there's fruit in theirlife, and here's what they have to
say about it.
And we need that more thanever before.
Guys, we're.
I want you to all go to theline of fire.org because Dr.
Michael Brown, you have anewsletter, is that right?
Tell them about the newsletter.
Yeah, so just so folks know, Inormally write about four or five
articles a week.

(01:04:04):
And then we've got our dailyradio show and other videos.
So we have thousands of hoursof free resources there.
Wow.
Just search for things you'reinterested in.
But we just launched inJanuary, the Frontline newsletter.
And every every month, firstthere's a message that'll stir you
and inspire you.
And then amazing testimonies.
We've added in a Hebrew wordstudy each month to make it interesting.

(01:04:27):
Book excerpts, other things.
So the whole goal is to say,okay, look, all of us, we're in the
line of fire today.
That's the reality.
We're all on the front lineswherever we live.
I want to come alongside you,hold your hands up, because together
we can make a difference.
This.
We're in the early stages ofsomething that we've been praying
for and longing for for many,many years.

(01:04:47):
Come on, let's grab hold of it together.
We want to equip you on thefront line.
So the line of fire.org righton the homepage.
Sign up for the Frontlinenewsletter and then we'll put you
in our welcome tour.
So share my testimony from LSDto PhD.
Come on.
I was shooting heroin at 15 onLong island, the whole transformation
and then the three R's of ourministry revival in the church, leading

(01:05:08):
to gospel based moral andcultural revolution, leading to the
redemption of Israel.
That's what causes our heartto burn and that's what we want to
see.
Oh, I love your heart andwe're so grateful for this conversation.