April 25, 2025 • 50 mins
In this deeply personal and unfiltered episode, Apostle Mike Signorelli sits down with Carl Lentz for a no-holds-barred conversation about spiritual warfare, failure, redemption, and the power of grace.
Carl opens up like never before — from the crushing weight of leading in NYC to hitting rock bottom, stepping out of ministry, and finding his way back through counseling, deliverance, and deep inner healing.
This isn’t a soundbite-driven conversation. It’s a raw encounter between two men who have been in the trenches — one who fell, and one who stood by interceding. They talk about the real cost of leadership, the lies we tell ourselves, how demons don’t always leave in one session, and what it truly means to be known by God.
- “If you’re not in a head-on collision with the devil, you’re probably running in the same direction.”
- “We’ve made deliverance go viral, but forgot that discipline keeps you free.”
- “In a world that won’t sit still long enough to watch a full video, how can we expect people to sit still long enough for God to unwind their trauma?”
- “The revival wasn’t filmed — but it happened. And it changed lives.”
Whether you've been following Carl’s journey or you’re walking through your own dark night of the soul, this episode will minister to you, challenge you, and stir a hunger for real, lasting freedom.
🎧 Subscribe, rate, and share if this episode speaks to you.
👉 www.mikesignorelli.com — go now and get equipped.
Mentioned in this episode:
The Domino Revival Movie
The Domino Revival takes moviegoers on an extraordinary journey with Mike Signorelli and a group of revivalists during a pivotal period in our nation’s history. As society’s fascination with the supernatural intensifies, this film unveils the awe-inspiring power of Jesus Christ. Through compelling preaching, documented miracles, triumph over despair, and liberation from demons, The Domino Revival captures the essence of spiritual hunger and delivers a profound cinematic experience. STREAMING NOW!
Inherit Your Freedom
Are you ready to break free from the cycles of generational trauma, curses, and limitations that have held you and your family captive for years? I recently finished writing my second book - Inherit Your Freedom, a powerful guide to transforming your life and legacy. This is more than a book—it’s a blueprint for breakthrough. Through my personal journey of overcoming my own family’s generational struggles, you’ll gain practical wisdom and real-world tools to unearth the spiritual obstacles holding you back and embrace the life of freedom God has destined for you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:33):
Carl Lentz.
You're here.
My brother Mikasa.
I'm in your house here in NewYork City.
Incredible.
Yeah, I, I really appreciateyou, brother.
I think I, I, we talked alittle bit beforehand.
When you meet people in NewYork that are about the, the right
kind of grind, it justresonates with me.
And you've always been thatyou've always been somebody who's
(00:54):
about people and about lettingpeople know there's.
There's a living God.
You can, you can know him ornot, but you're gonna love people
either way.
And I think it's.
It's really special.
My.
My.
My heart, when I come back toNew York, it just, you know, just
fills up with now gratitudeand love.
There was like a.
A little period.
There was tough to.
Tough to function even comingback here.
(01:15):
But seeing men like you, it'sjust cool, man.
I'm really proud of who youare and, and what you represent,
and it's cool to be in yourhouse, brother.
Man, I didn't know we weregonna start with me crying.
Yeah, well, like, it means alot hearing you say that, because
you've been here in the meanstreets, you know, this life, and
it's.
It's incredibly vindicating.
You know, there's been.
I tell people New York City islike the Vietnam of church planting.
(01:38):
So because you see so many ofyour fallen brothers, and I, I, I.
Who's that guy from Forest Gump?
Captain Dan.
Yeah, Lieutenant Dan.
Lieutenant Dan.
I tell because people, I'mlike, I'm not that good.
I'm Lieutenant Dan.
Like, I'm the dude that'slike, I'm missing an eye, my limbs,
and I just wield myself outfor this interview because I just.
I.
But what I do say is I gotthat cockroach anointing.
(02:00):
Yeah.
You know, it's like you candrop in a nuke.
You've kind of got that on you.
Or zombie mode, I call it,where it's like, you can't kill me
a second time already dead.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
He.
One of my friends who's not aChristian, who I love.
He was like, you know, you.
You're like kind of like a cockroach.
And I'm like, you want to fishfor another metaphor, my brother?
You know what I mean?
(02:20):
Like a phoenix.
I'm like, let's go with Phoenix.
Like, I know what you're aboutto say, but, yeah, it's just a little
Hit a nerve.
Yeah.
So funny.
I just own.
I just, man.
Well, you know what?
It's like this guy, JonathanKhan, I was reading one of his books
and this is a mind blowing revelation.
He was talking about how Satanwas referred to as a serpent in.
(02:40):
In the Genesis and then adragon in Revelation, which is coldblooded,
like reptilian.
And then obviously Christbeing the lion of the lamb, which
is warm blooded.
And the whole revelation wascold blooded.
You, you're fast, but youdon't have endurance.
And then warm blooded is forthe long old like you.
You're an endurance creature.
I love that.
And so I feel like, you know,for us, the warm blooded individuals.
(03:04):
Yeah, we just, we're juststill here.
Yeah.
You know, we're still rocking.
And so for you to show up, foryou to be here, as a matter of fact,
it's kind of serendipitous.
I.
I think I'll at least mention this.
Yeah.
You know, I just hit a million subscribers.
Come on, somebody.
And the whole thing was like,man, when we hit a million, I'm gonna
have Carl come.
And it was.
I love this idea of dancing onthe graveyard.
(03:25):
Yeah.
And it was like you and I hadin my mind this triumphant thing
where I'm like, New York Citychurch planter with New York City
church planter.
Carl comes back to New YorkCity and I hit a million subs.
And dude, you can't make this up.
Go.
Can you grab your thing?
Yeah, I'm do.
Yeah, yeah.
Here.
Maybe.
Evan, we're gonna flex it.
This is a.
Is this a soft.
I don't.
I don't even.
(03:45):
I don't even think we cancolor this with a flex.
I like to look at it as.
What a great thing.
This is incredible.
Talk about it.
Well, can we pawn it?
Is this real gold?
One thing I love about beingout of a little bit of the church
mix is the fake humility that,that people don't use in the morals.
(04:05):
Rebuke me, apostle.
No, no, no.
You, you, you.
You can.
It's actually a prettyincredible thing to invade a space
that's filled with so muchstuff that's not helping people.
Yeah.
And you went in there with thereally simple message, bro, and God's
really blessed it, so it'sawesome to see.
Yeah.
Apologize for nothing.
And.
(04:26):
And thank you for that.
Thank you for that.
Because you can't fake yourway to this.
No.
And the thing is, like, peopleknow you.
It's.
They know.
So long story short, this iswhere this becomes like a movie moment.
This to me, right.
I come out here, I start thechurch with 18 people, we launched
seven campuses a decade later.
And then the whole joke was,I'm going to hit a million subscribers
(04:48):
and then Carl's going to come, whatever.
So then my assistant.
So you're on the way, right?
So you're coming.
And then my assistant sends mea message saying, you'll never believe
this.
Your gold play button trackinginformation just came in and it's
literally getting delivered today.
So, like, you and the buttonshowed up at the same time.
Let's go.
I mean, it's just one of thoseweird things.
(05:08):
It's, it's.
It's a.
It's a staple of kind of what,what God's doing with you.
I also say this to the, themillions of people that watch.
So you are, I think the young.
The young people still say areal one.
When you make decisions thatare hard and you fall, you know,
some people don't stick around.
And we've known each other foryears from different angles.
(05:32):
But you didn't abandon thefield, you know, And I think that's
really special.
And I just want to.
For the people that do followyou and trust you and love you, for
as a former minister thatbroke people's trust.
It's cool to be able to alwayspoint to people who say you're a
man of integrity and, and Ithink it's really special.
But that's, that's who thisguy is.
(05:53):
He's not the.
He's not the guy who talks andthen doesn't show.
You've always been encouragingto me and my family, and I appreciate
it.
I'll never forget it.
I have a great long memory,the right way, short memory on the.
On the wrong stuff.
Great memory on the otherstuff, like people who are faithful.
And Chris Durso is another guyin the city that is.
(06:15):
There's just some.
There's some real people out there.
So the guy that has ministeredto you for a long time and does so
probably daily, people who area part of this movement, ministries.
He's the, he's the real deal.
You're a real guy.
Come on, man.
That means a lot.
Well, that's one of the thingsI love about New York City is they
know real.
Knows real.
And it's like, man, you canget away with some stuff outside
(06:35):
of New York City, but you comein here and they're.
They're not having it.
You know, there's a reason whyI came from Indiana and, like, I'm
still here.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
I don't know if you do that.
Do you have guest speakers atyour church?
Yeah, sometimes.
There was a guy who camethrough to preach one time at Hillsong,
and I had him slated to do a couple.
And then after the first one,I was like, man, just.
(06:56):
I can't.
We can't.
We can't run that thing back, brother.
And it's.
No offense.
It's just.
Isn't.
It's not for our people.
Right.
And because you find out realquick that whatever you've been doing,
like, New York has thisbeautiful thing of it where people
are.
They're really genuine andopen and.
And some of the stick or thewhatever you think was working somewhere,
it's like.
But I just never forget thatguy's face.
(07:17):
Like, it just can't do it, brother.
Like, yeah, right.
You know.
Glad you're here.
Appreciate you.
But we got to put, you know, what.
What we do here first.
And so, yeah, New York, NewYork will.
It'll show you colors quick.
It will.
Yeah.
Straight up.
Yeah.
We have to be very intentionalabout who.
Because, you know, it's.
And the other thing too islike, there.
There's not as much likecelebrity Christian culture out here.
(07:40):
You know what I mean?
So you could have a largecrowd at V1 Church and there.
And you're.
I'm.
Name drop.
They're like, we don't knowwho that is and we don't care.
And by the way, can Juliepreach again?
You know, so they just.
My wife is the celebrity ofour church, which I think is awesome.
Yeah.
You know, but it's.
It's so true.
You know, a lot of.
A lot of that stuff is.
Is.
Is.
Is made up culture stuff, youknow, like the whole celebrity vibe
(08:03):
in general, it.
You could even say it's justnot real.
Yeah.
If someone throws these labels around.
Yeah.
Okay.
But on the streets, real lifeoutside of whatever screen you're
watching, it's a different world.
Yeah.
I've never really given a lotof stock to that stuff.
And we obviously got hit withsome of that stuff, but we always
(08:24):
just used to say whatever, youknow, we don't have a lot of time.
Yeah.
To be fishing around some of these.
These labels because it's.
You know, when you do a churchin New York, it's different.
Well, you were always the guytoo, and you still are.
But I just.
So many stories of youministering to people who have no
idea who you are and that you.
And I was telling you thisearlier, but it's just of your primary
(08:45):
giftings is an evangelist, youknow, Dramatic stories that you had
here in the.
In the streets.
And what I loved is like,anybody can have the music playing
behind them.
You know what I mean?
And you set the atmosphere.
And it's like, it's funnybecause one of the ways that I've
kept.
I.
I've sharpened myself out hereis like, try something that worked
on a stage in the streets.
(09:06):
Yeah.
And how many times I've gottenlaughed at, cussed out.
They don't care who I am.
And it's funny because I walkaway from those situations thinking
this made me healthier.
Because you.
You.
When you're in the echochamber and you know it's.
You drop the one line.
Like at our Manhattan campus,I drop a one liner and everyone goes,
wow.
And you know, so where didthat church culture, the.
(09:27):
Wow.
Wow.
And I'm like, from asociological perspective, if somebody
came in, you're like, this isweird, man.
Yeah.
And then you go in the streetand you drop the one liner.
And no.
And no one says, wow.
Yeah.
You know, so.
Yeah, but.
And I love that about.
I think I gleaned that fromyour life when I got here, where
it was like, I need to spendas much time on the streets as I
do the stage.
Or more.
Yeah.
(09:47):
You know what I mean?
That's a beautiful way to put it.
I think I.
My.
I.
I talk to a lot ofcommunicators now, and part of my
primary thing I'm doing ishelping people preach better.
And there is a switch to bemade where a lot of guys, like, I
want to see if what I'm sayingon the stage works in the street.
I said, and perhaps flip that thing.
Yeah.
That was.
(10:08):
If it's working on the street,go ahead and talk about it.
Yeah.
That.
So I was never a sermon prepguy, where I'm going to prepare a
sermon up in a closet, comedown and try to deliver something.
I was more of a.
An overflow from what reallife is happening and what real life
is doing.
And it'll probably help thesepeople as well.
That was always my.
My memo.
And I.
(10:28):
I met with the preacher one time.
He was like, I got all mysermons prepared for the whole year.
And I was like, sounds miserable.
They're probably trash.
How do you do that?
Like, how on earth could.
You know?
Yeah.
And we both love prep.
Like, I'm a huge, obvious,diligent believer in prep.
My point is like, what are you prepping?
Right.
So it's much more fun to seeGod do things in people's lives on
(10:50):
the street and in your ownfamily and in your everyday life,
and then go talk about whatGod's doing as opposed to trying
to get some ethereal thoughtthat might get you a certain look
or feel, but it doesn't have that.
That impact that you and I love.
The impact of watching Godinvade a space.
Oh, my gosh.
It's so.
(11:10):
It's a cool thing to seepeople make a shift from, like, yeah,
maybe the pulpit to the streets.
Yeah.
Chasm doesn't have to be asglaring as it can seem.
Like that's from where I sitnow on the sidelines to a degree
when it comes to preaching.
I see guys preaching a lot.
I just say, I hope.
I hope there's a new wave ofguys that are going to come out of
(11:31):
the street into the pulpit asopposed to guys trying to see if
this is going to work out there.
Here's my church.
(12:14):
You know, I think, yeah,there's a beautiful mix in there
somewhere.
I feel it.
It's almost like if it workson the stage, it might not work on
the streets, but if it workson the streets, it probably works
three times better on the stage.
Yes.
And that's how you don't loseyour edge.
Yeah.
And it also has humbled mebecause I'm like, wow, I'm not that
good, you know, like.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Because.
And I think New York City, Ihad this weird relationship with
(12:37):
this city because it is like alove hate, you know, because it's.
It's the.
It's that Dickens, you know,the best at times, worst at times.
The Tale of Two Cities, youknow, and.
And I know, you know that, youknow, you know, you.
You were out there, you're evangelizing.
I feel like in.
So, I feel like in so manyways, you were like a marked man
spiritually, because it's likeyou have the nations come to New
(13:01):
York City.
You know, it's like, forexample, I.
I got the mayor's approvalhere to do a Times Square event.
My expectations were low.
The thing.
Yeah.
Wow.
That's a whole other story.
I can't wait.
For those watching, you maynot know.
So I.
I did a live stream from myphone outside of this house, and
it went viral that night,which was.
It was me talking about thelone wolf situation here in the city.
(13:24):
It was a political thing, butI gave, like, a spiritual message.
I love it.
I.
And I.
I hesitate to say this onfilm, but I'm just gonna, you know,
whatever, we'll go there.
You know, I get a WhatsAppfrom the New York City Mayor's office.
Which that kind of freaked me out.
It's like at first I thoughtit was spam, you know, and then it
was like, hey, you know, we'rerequesting your presence at Gracie
(13:45):
Mansion.
So I'm thinking like, this iseither really good or really bad,
you know.
So I show up the next day andthe guys were basically like, hey,
we want to say this, but we can't.
Thank you for saying this,which is kind of crazy.
So then I try to use that opendoor to open another door and was
like, hey, I want to do like atime square event, blah, blah, blah.
(14:07):
So they approve it.
And I'm.
I mean when you see thefootage, the whole thing, it looks
like a New York.
A New Year's Eve.
Wow service.
Check it out.
Which, which was.
But my point, even bringingthat up is like, you know, when,
when to do that.
It's like if I did a event ofthat magnitude in terms of people
in, in Idaho, shout out all myIdaho folks watching right now, it's
(14:30):
not going to.
Yeah, but you put that amountof people in Times Square and it's
like, I mean, I wasinternationally syndicated news that
next week because there'ssomething about this being the crossroads
of the world and you.
I know.
You know, and so that was likea huge moment for me, like kind of
like a milestone moment.
But it also made me aware ofthe spiritual significance.
(14:53):
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
So, so the thing I, I used to.
And I.
This is the first time I'mever saying this to you, but like,
I would pray for you.
Thank you deeply, man.
I'm talking intercede.
Because part of it was likeyou're literally plundering.
There's that phrase I always use.
If you're not in a head oncollision with the devil, it's because
you're both run in the same direction.
(15:14):
Yikes.
And so it was like for you,you're just, you're out here just
plundering hell, raising uppeople to do it.
It was more like apostolicwith, with the evangelistic, you
know what I mean?
And the whole time I think forme, I looked at the spiritual implications
of it.
I'm like, there's a, there's alot of demons mad at this dude.
So I mean, I don't know if youfeel comfortable, like.
(15:35):
Yeah, if you could go back inyour mind to that era of like what
it was like to be public enemynumber one in Satan's kingdom.
Yeah, I mean I.
It was I, I, I, There's a, wetypically either overplay it or underplay
it.
Yeah.
When it comes to spiritual darkness.
And I think I, I have a greatmom and dad who taught me really
(15:58):
well about, about that.
And, and even, you know, mypastor at the time, Brian, and, and
Hillsong in general was very,very tuned into, you know, the, the
spiritual stuff that we can'tput our finger on a lot.
And I feel like I probablycould have done more to get more
(16:19):
help when it came to theheaviness of what I would feel every
day.
And everybody, everybodywatching has their own unique heaviness
that's going to come withtheir life.
And for me in New York, Ididn't, I just, we just hit the ground
running and then you wake upsome days you're like, man, I'm really
sore.
Like, spiritually, like, I don't.
(16:39):
And you just try to pushthrough it.
Whereas I know now it wouldhave been a call, it would have been
a, hey, I don't know what thisis, but just, just pray because I'm
not feeling good or I'mfeeling this, I'm feeling that I
just was so close to reachingout for my own life.
I was really good at reachingout to other, really good at teaching
other people to reach out.
When it came to me, actuallyput my hand up, you know, I didn't,
(17:02):
I didn't, I would do that differently.
And so I, but the spiritualweight of that era was something
special.
I counted it as a reverent honor.
So that head on collision, I'msure you're crazy like me, where
it's like, if there's notsomething wild happening, I'm not
doing my fricking job.
(17:23):
So if I'm not getting 10reports before a service starts about
some sort of drama, are weeven existing?
So there, sometimes there'd bea challenge.
I'll be like, thank Godthere's no power randomly.
Yeah.
The whole day.
Right.
Thank God there's a parade again.
How many effing parades can wehave in New York?
We had a parade last hour andhere we are again.
(17:45):
Hey, just so you know, Carl,all the streets are shut down.
No one can get to the servicebecause we've got parades.
It's like, cool.
But I, so I, I was always upfor the fight.
But I think there is a levelof wisdom that comes with the humility
to get help that I didn't, Ididn't access.
Yeah.
(18:06):
And so that's, that's, that'show when I look back at that one.
That one angle of it.
Boy, it would have been.
It would have been reallyhelpful to let some people know what
I was dealing with.
Yeah, well, it's like we'veall been so inspired by your counseling
journey, you know, and as achurch, like, we.
Scholarship, all kinds of counseling.
I mean, we have a largenational network of people.
(18:27):
People that.
I mean, it's.
It's.
We believe in that, and we'vebeen following your journey.
That's why you're awesome, though.
Mike, there's not like.
There's not a lot, you knowhow I feel about your camp, and I
say that lovingly.
It's not.
It's not a camp.
But why I think you stand outis because you use your whole brain,
the entire thing God gave you,you use it all.
Yeah.
It's not either or.
It's not like people whobelieve in therapy don't.
(18:48):
Don't discount the supernatural.
No, man.
If you're really tuned insupernaturally, you'll be in a therapist
office because you know whatyou need.
So I.
I love the fact that you'reable to just be smart with both,
man.
I appreciate that.
I appreciate that.
Well, I mean, right now I'mdoing hyperbaric oxygen therapy,
which is incredible for your brain.
It is, and it's really helpingme a lot.
(19:09):
Yeah.
But here's my thing.
I knew all about deliveranceand spiritual warfare and still cheated
on my wife, still became analcoholic, still stepped out of ministry.
Yeah.
It's like our stories areidentical, just 15 years apart.
Yeah.
I just.
I had a smaller audience forit than you did, you know?
And.
And so it was crazy because Iwas like, wow, there has to be more.
(19:30):
It's.
You can't counsel a demon, butyou can't cast out a mental issue.
Right.
So it's like I had that.
That's where the wisdom came from.
And.
And so for me, it's like I'mreally just prescribing people what
worked for me.
I'm the crash test dummy of myministry, where I'm like, hey, here's.
Here's what worked, you know?
Yeah.
And.
And unfortunately, I had tolearn the hard way because I was
(19:52):
the guy who over spiritualizeduntil I realized, this is not working.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
And experience taught me.
And what's crazy, I ended upfinding this guy.
Well, so, you know, a lot ofmy viewers know this, but like I
mentioned to you, my dad dies prematurely.
I'm fatherless.
I had multiple abusive stepdads.
I was raised in extremepoverty, gang ridden neighborhoods,
(20:12):
blah, blah, blah.
So all of a sudden, now here Iam, Pastor Mike, and I'm like, I
hadn't dealt with all this stuff.
So that was.
But I had dealt with it on ademonic level or, you know, we say
strongholds, but I was like, Ineed someone.
So for me, basically whathappened was it got so bad at the
height of my alcoholism, Icame home one day and my house is
(20:33):
completely empty, but drunkout of my mind.
I think it was clean.
So in my mind, I'm thinking,man, Julie really cleaned good today.
And then when I sobered up, Iwas like, oh, she's gone.
You know, like, my wife left me.
And.
And, you know, of course thatmade things worse.
I spiraled more.
But eventually I reached acrossroads where I was like, I'm
(20:55):
gonna find help.
So I went to this counselorwho was like, fully medical and fully
Christian, which is kind of ananomaly, as you know.
It's hard to find those dudes.
Yeah.
And then I'm sitting in thecounseling session, and then I start
getting angry because I'mlike, I have to pay a man to care
about me.
This is so jacked up.
Like, my pastor never caredabout me, you know, blah, blah.
(21:16):
And I, you know, all those wounds.
So I literally just talk aboutdropping f bombs.
I just cussed this dude out.
Yeah, he waits till I'm done.
He's like, like, are you done?
I'm like, well, yeah, youknow, and he was like, well, here.
Here's the deal.
You don't have to pay me ever again.
I want to see you every single week.
And I.
I believe in you, and I wantyou to be here.
(21:37):
And this dude just broke thisorphan thing off me.
So I went on this journey withhim for a long time.
And it was funny because I wasstruggling with alcoholism.
Like, I.
When I say it was clinicallydiagnosed, you know how people say
it?
And you're like, no, you justhad a couple rager parties.
It was like, I had a drunk.
Yeah, y know, I'm.
(21:58):
I'm going.
And so what he did is he said,I want you to.
I want you to start visitingall the places over Chicagoland where
the abuse and the trauma happened.
And I want you to ask God,where were you when it happened to
me?
So I'm like, oh, this is goingto be fun.
You know, this.
This can be.
So what happened, though?
The very first location I showup to where some really bad stuff
(22:20):
happened to me, I'm like,okay, God, I'm doing it.
This counselor wants.
I'm like, where were you whenit happened?
And this is.
This is the revelation I gotis in that moment, I felt like the
Holy Spirit said, I'm notbound by time.
I'm.
I'm actually still there.
I'm in that moment.
Like, you're bound by time,but not me.
So where am I?
(22:42):
I'm in 1983, and.
And I can touch you right nowif you'll allow.
And that's God's version of healing.
So I'm going through thesecrazy experiences where I'm being
triggered.
It's getting worse, it'sgetting better.
You know how, like, you knowthat whole roller coaster you go
on?
I relate.
Yeah.
And so what happened was oneweek I just decided, like, I don't
(23:06):
want to drink anymore.
And so I come in and I tellthe guy.
He's like, yeah, I thought itwould happen this week or next week.
And he had, like, charted thisthing out.
He was that good.
He was an older guy, had beendoing it for, like, four decades,
and he charted out my journey.
So I think what happened is Ibecame the test tube experiment for
this stuff where I was like,it's cruelty to tell somebody it's
(23:30):
a demon when they need counseling.
It's.
It's actually cruelty becauseI was subjected to that unbalanced
bad theology.
Wow.
You know what I mean?
And.
And so watching you kind of goon that journey as well, where it's
holistic has been inspiring.
So I don't know if you want tokind of, like, piggyback off of that.
I mean, holistic is a great word.
I think.
I.
I mean, you just said it beautifully.
(23:51):
I think there has to be.
I think if you have aChristian, a follower of Jesus, that
is really aware of theirmental health, aware of their neuropath
in their brain chemicals andtheir tendencies, and they're really
aware of the spiritual realm,they're hard to stop now.
(24:17):
Either one alone, easy to stop.
You get that spiritual guywho's like, ah, therapy, whatever.
Need dead man walking.
Get the guy over here who'sall therapy, all brain, dead man
walking.
There's this beautiful placeto get to where it's like, now I'm
a child of God.
I love Jesus.
I know God has a plan for mylife, and because of that, I can
(24:40):
then go pursue the things thatGod has opened up for me to get help.
That combo to me is.
Is everything.
And I think there's a.
There's a wave, and yourepresent a lot of what that can
be.
Of people who can really talkabout both.
And.
And that's where that's the.
To me, the recipe that's goingto bring continual revival is it's.
(25:01):
I mean, right now it's reallycool to talk about mental health.
It's like therapy has becomelike church almost.
I say, oh, I go to church.
I go to therapy.
Okay, I got you.
But that's going to swing backbecause that's empty.
And just like, it's been empty.
Hollow church, where you'regoing to rant and rave about stuff,
but there's no power.
Yeah.
That middle ground for me is.
Is the therapy side of things.
(25:23):
Really, really helped me.
Really helped me.
I went to a rehab, and Ithought that I was going there for
one reason.
And I remember the guy said,you know, I kept asking for my medication.
They're like, hey, you know,we're not going to be giving you
that here.
And I'm like, well, you gotanother thing coming, my brother,
because I didn't come here for that.
I came here for this.
And they're like, yeah, well,we're going to tell you what you're
(25:45):
here for.
And I'm like, see that?
That doesn't work for me, youknow, And I literally got into a
pretty close to a physicalaltercation with this sweet therapist
in the middle of Arizona.
Flipped a table, packed all mystuff up.
Yeah.
And.
And then I was like, oh, Imight be an addict.
Anytime someone tries to takesomething from you and your.
Your response is visceral, youmight want to look into that.
(26:08):
But it was moments like thatwhere God is kind with the way that
he will unwind.
Truth.
You need to see if you can sitthere long enough to let him do it.
And in our world where wecan't sit down long enough to watch
a whole video, people don'thave a lot of time.
Right.
For God to unwind anything.
Yeah.
And I don't look at mysituation as a crash and burn, you
(26:30):
know, I look at my situationas a graceful God who helped me see
things brighter.
Yeah.
And that's my situation.
Yeah.
I'm glad it's mine because Iget to talk about what it is to me.
And so to me, I look at whathappened to me and I said, God was
so kind to allow my vision toexpand, man.
This is as.
As important as all this stuffis that that is now severely damaged,
in which God can always redeemand always bless and always help.
(26:54):
But you.
There's some stuff in you thathas to change.
And so finding that Balancewas a beautiful thing, but you have
to sit still long enough tolet God do it.
Yeah.
And often when I talk topeople, it's like, how I want to
get free of this.
Okay, cool.
I get that.
How much work do you want to do?
Yes, that's the better.
And the question is not, doyou want to be free?
(27:15):
Question is, how much work areyou willing to do?
Yeah, but if it's freedom,shouldn't it be instant?
Eh, depends on what idiotyou're listening to preach every
week.
Because I don't see instantfreedom in the Gospels.
I don't see Peter not.
Not denying Jesus after hewalked with this brother.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, there's examples thatgive us a real.
No, real clear view ofhumanity and the people that we love
(27:37):
so much, we forget that.
Yeah.
Like, if the.
The guys that walk with Jesusneeded time to process who he was
and who they were, who are weto think?
Yeah, there might be somecounseling sessions in your future.
Doesn't mean you're less spiritual.
Doesn't mean you don't haveany faith.
It just means you're smart.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yes.
I.
I did very little therapybefore all this.
(27:57):
Huge proponent of it.
Like, I remember, I.
I wasn't the first guy, but Iwas in that first wave of people
standing up saying, it's okayto not be O.
But for me, it was like, I.
I don't know.
I mean, I.
I can go to a level, but therewas a wall in me where I was even
lying to myself.
Forget about being honest withmy wife Laura, or a counselor.
(28:18):
It's like I was too busy lyingto myself to be able to even get
the kind of help I needed.
So there's a.
There's a couple moments inthere for people to even dissect
their own life and forget about.
Are you honest with people?
Yeah, I like the question.
Are you honest with yourself?
Yeah, that's it.
There's power.
There's.
(29:29):
Yeah, well, so many young guys.
I mean, I get hundreds ofmessages a month from, hey, can you
cast out the demon of lust?
And it's like, let me ask you this.
Yeah, exactly.
Let me ask you a better question.
You know, when were you molested?
And have.
And have you dealt with that?
And what's the root of it?
Or what's your anxiety level?
(29:49):
And how are you medicatinganxiety with love?
So let you talk about the rootsystem, and it's like, you start
talking on that level, it'slike, man, they don't even because
they're looking for a quickfix, which I think contributes to
a culture of condemnation.
Because they're like, I didall the things the guy told me to
do.
The demons came out, but thennow here I am falling back into it.
(30:10):
It's like, well, maybe you didneed deliverance.
But yeah, the discipline iswhat you're talking about, where
it's like, we.
We got to go to the roots.
Like, for me, I was a self sabotager.
Yeah.
So I was the kind of guy thatwas like, oh, life's not fair.
I won't destroy you.
I'll destroy myself.
And so I was trapped in thesecycles of trying realizing things
(30:32):
aren't working out and thendestroying myself.
Yeah.
And then everybody around mewas a casualty of my own self destruction,
you know, and so I was trappedin that.
Yeah.
And it was.
It was so much.
And I feel like it's almostlike this.
Like this is how I'veexplained it before.
Here in New York City, we got.
We got rats the size of cats.
(30:52):
We do.
But wherever you find garbage,you find rats.
So this is a complex problembecause it's like we have to deal
with the garbage problem todeal with the rat problem.
It.
You know, it, it's.
And so for me, it's like, oh,yeah, there might be some demonic
stuff influencing yoursituation, but you got a garbage
problem, bro.
Like, you're feeding this.
(31:12):
You're beautiful, you know,and so I kind of.
I think there's a level of complexity.
But here's the problem, Carl.
And I know, you know, this is.
This kind of talk doesn't go viral.
Right.
But then when I say somethingthat has to.
When I do speak, you know, that's.
That's like, oh, you know, AndI think for me, I've kind of.
Even in my own personalministry, I've been dealing with
(31:33):
that avatar of who MikeSignorelli is.
And then people come into V1church and like, oh, everything's
not a demon here.
And you know, whatever.
And I was like, yes, we're areal church.
You.
You know, and then we'regiving them scholarships to counseling
sessions, and they're like.
I said the guy I wanted tocome see.
Yeah, this is confusing.
And actually, some of them whoare like spiritual vagabonds, they
(31:54):
leave angry and they go find.
Yeah.
A person that will tell them what.
They want to hear.
Yeah, man.
And so it's like, what.
What I love about what you.
What I see you doing is nottrying to deny the reality of the
supernatural.
The influence of Dark.
You know, the darkness, butalso the complexities of it.
Yeah.
Something I've been dying toask you about, you know, because
(32:15):
we're kind of in the grandfinale territory right now.
And I've always wanted to askyou about people throw this term
revivalist around and what I.
When I look at your life, I.
I see an overarching theme.
Because even, Even with you,like, hey, why doesn't revival affect
your mind?
Yeah.
Why, why, why did your spiritcome back to life but not your brain?
Because my brain is the problem.
(32:36):
Or why.
You know, physical.
Yeah.
And.
And I remember this one time Iwas at Hillsong NYC service because
we'd hang out in the eveningswith all those dudes and whatever.
Yeah.
And you just had one of those,like, last service of the day, you
preached all day and then youdropped this atomic bomb and something
happened where it's just.
Everybody just got sucked tothe stage.
(32:56):
And I remember seeing you onstage, like you could barely stand
up.
Yeah, you were.
And you were just.
It was just madness.
I remember Evan and I, who'soff camera just balling our eyes
out be.
Because we moved our wholelife here to see those moments of
response.
And we were like the guys withthe 40 person church.
This is before the seven campuses.
This is before the stuff I'mdoing now, before the Times Square
(33:19):
moment.
And you represented like itwas, like it is possible.
Because when I got here, Iwould say, I would tell people the
vision I had for New York City.
And 100% of pastors would say,say, Mike, we want to adjust your
expectations.
And they thought they werehelping me, but it was Saul's armor.
And they were just saying,listen, bro, people come out here,
(33:40):
you know, with way more, youknow, you're just.
We're.
They're trying to help me.
Yeah.
But I remember seeing thatservice and I remember it was like,
you're under the weight of theglory of God and people are surging.
And dude, I was in the crowd.
Yeah.
So we're meeting people whoare Hindus, atheists, agnostics.
I mean, you people don'tunderstand, bro, what you were doing
here, it wasn't the Bible Bell.
(34:02):
It wasn't.
This was the jungle.
It is.
You know.
You know what I'm saying?
And so I remember watchingthat moment and being like, this
is I.
(35:15):
And I.
Forgive me if I'm steppingover the line, but it felt like historically
significant and.
And I think your story will.
Will have to be told inretrospect because.
Because you're on this other.
And So I think the overarchingtitle for your life is Revivalist,
because wherever you.
Whatever you step into, youbring things back to life, and you've
(35:38):
been doing it in phases, and that's.
I think this journey, if I canspeak prophetically for you right
now, is like a revival of thebiological mind.
A revival of.
We're working on the secondmovie right now, and the title, the
theme of the movie is familyis revival.
So you're bringing your kids,you know, you're putting on the podcast.
(35:59):
But what goes through yourmind when you think about what it
means to be.
Because I know there was avisceral, emotional response to that,
and.
And I.
You know, But I want to say itpublicly to a million subscribers.
One of the greatestrevivalists of our generation's name
is Carl Lentz.
And I believe that.
(36:20):
I saw it, but the crazy thingis I'm still seeing it.
Yeah.
And I saw people surged to thestage when we were in that venue
in Manhattan, but people aresurging to YouTube, and it's actually
a bigger.
And I felt like the Lord wasshowing me, like, what.
What Carl's doing now isliterally greater than what he did
before.
It's just that it's digital,not physical in many ways.
(36:43):
So you want to kind of, like,speak to that?
No, I think it.
It definitely.
I.
I remember, you know, you everhad those moments where you're like,
(37:16):
if I don't stop this cry.
Yeah, man.
Let it go.
Rap.
No, no, like, let it out.
There are cries, and they'relike, there, there's.
I've learned to recognize whatkind of tears are flowing, which
comes through some work aswell, let me tell you.
Different types of tears.
Who knew?
No, I remember, you know,moments like that or.
And things like that.
(37:37):
And I think it's.
It's one of those.
It's beautiful.
It's a beautiful.
One of the things that sucksabout making decisions that.
That have a.
Have a huge consequence beyondwhat you can see is, you know, you
put.
There's a time where your workand what you did that was right.
You know, you put it in thehands of other people to question
that's a consequence.
(37:57):
Doesn't stay like that.
God redeems.
But there are parts of that.
That journey that.
That were marred or covered for.
For a season, because I.
I put some of that in avulnerable position.
And to those parts, I'll get there.
(38:25):
Well, let me.
Let me say why you get it.
Yeah.
Because.
And if you want to cry, youkeep letting it out.
No, no, but let me tell you why.
Because I believe that thereis an element of vindication.
You know, the Bible talksabout wood, haste, double.
You know, it's like when thefire comes, there's things that remain.
Pain.
Yeah.
And those were, like,irrevocable moments.
Yeah.
Of true revival that weren't filmed.
(38:48):
Yeah.
You.
This is what people understand.
We didn't do this.
And I'm not fangirling right now.
It's like, I.
I have devoted my life to this man.
Yeah.
And as a practitioner, I'msaying there was.
You didn't have a D Rockfollowing you around so you can get
the next viral clip of youdoing revival.
You did it in the streets, inthe local bodegas.
You did it on stage.
(39:08):
And those services are.
They only exist in our minds.
Yeah.
I don't even think there'sarchival footage of this stuff.
Yeah.
And.
And I just felt like.
And that was kind of the lastthing I wanted to ask you about for
this.
Yeah.
Because I.
I wanted to acknowledge you asa revivalist.
Thank you.
And I.
I believe history will reflectwhat I said.
(39:29):
And.
And I.
And.
But I think what.
What happens is.
Let me say this.
When you're two steps ahead ofpeople, you're their leader.
When you're 10 steps ahead,you're their martyr.
And you've always been ahead.
So it's like, because youchase up ahead what God's doing,
you're a forerunner.
And so that's caused a levelof martyrdom for you.
But as somebody who's nowliving in your.
(39:51):
Yes.
Living in your.
Yes.
Stewarding many of the peoplethat were a part of that who are
now at our various campuses.
They are.
I just wanted to tell you.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Now, you're.
You're an amazing place forthem to be able to have gone, I think.
Yeah.
There's so much about thatpart of our.
Our chapter and story that I'mglad that God redeems because we.
(40:15):
You know, what we saw here, ithad never happened.
Yeah.
And.
And that's not something thatI'm gonna always necessarily say,
but when.
When your mistakes can havepeople almost try to reduce a move
of God to some salacious thingthat's half true anyway.
It's one of those things whereyou want to remind people when they're
(40:35):
on that doorstep of sin,that's going to destroy stuff, really
count that cost.
You know, because there's, like.
(40:56):
Neither of us do, like,structured interview stuff.
Yeah.
And I'm regretting it nowbecause I would have seen this Question.
Come and be like, mike, I'mnot doing it.
Not with a million.
No.
No freaking way.
Yeah, we did it.
We did prepare for this.
No, I think, I think it'sjust, it's a beautiful, like when
God gives you something tosteward, count the cost.
And it's hard to hear if Iwould have been on the other side
(41:22):
of this, listening to someonehave this combo, I probably would
have said, well, I am counting it.
But I look back at that eraand it just.
There's so many amazingpeople, and I saw God do so much.
Where some people ask, how didyou get up?
I'm like, man, you've seenwhat I've seen, brother.
Like, I'm not God.
Didn't fail me like, I a day, right?
(41:45):
What we saw, I was just soblessed to be a part of that.
I remember services like that.
I remember seeing the tangiblepresence of God change people's lives.
And yeah, it's a, it's a, it'sa beautiful feeling I have just thinking
about even some of the mantleof that that God has bestowed on
you and what you're doing and,and stuff that we, we were never,
(42:07):
we didn't do do.
Like, the, the gift that youhave right now to reach people digitally
is really special.
But yeah, I think, I thinkwhen I think about revival, we serve
a God that can, in the blinkof an eye, turn anything around,
any situation around, any mistake.
I, I am proof of that.
Like, I always tell people,like, I'm 46.
(42:30):
I'm not 96.
Come on.
Like, our stories are long and everybody.
I have a chapter of mine thatwas, that was, that was hard and
happened to be really public.
But the outweighing memory andgratitude I have to be a part of,
like, when people speculate ortry to judge stories they don't know,
it's human nature to just takethe little bit of information you
(42:52):
have and just try to destroysomebody's whole life.
Not when you've seen the stuffthat you and I have seen.
Yeah.
And, and I'm, I'm reallygrateful that, you know, New York
has, has men of integrity thatare stewarding that platform well.
And I, I, I'm, I'm gratefulfor the, for the New York time that
we spent on the, on the battlefields.
(43:14):
But I think I'm trying to goback to the, the impetus of my floodgate
tier issue that I was about to have.
It's just because it, it'sthat that lane is open.
You know, it, you running it,you stay in it.
And I could.
I mean, there's a huge lanethat is still waiting to be occupied
by many people who are willingjust to be faithful, to step out.
(43:37):
Like, you come in here.
I mean, we're in your house inQueens, overlooking the greatest
city on Earth.
If you would have told you 10years ago, Mike, this is your story,
you would have been like, andif he's done it for you, can do it
for anybody.
If he's done it for me, eventhis chapter, if he's done it for
me, like, as I sit here today,I have a wife, I have a family.
(43:57):
Family that's better thanthey've ever been.
I have, like.
So even through all that messand destruction, that's how faithful
our God is.
So I'm not an example of whathappens when somebody messes up.
You know, I think.
I hope I will always be anexample of somebody who presses in.
And regardless of thecircumstances, regardless of the
sin, regardless of what you'vebeen faced with, you know, there's
(44:17):
nothing that can hold down aman or woman of God that chooses
to put their hand up again.
Yeah.
And that's.
That's kind of a message I'veenjoyed leaning on.
I've been the guy on the frontof the stage heaving my guts out
for a season.
Right now I'm.
I'm a guy in a differentposition still with the same passion,
but he's able to say, hey, bythe way, I don't know what you're
going through.
I don't know why you clickedon this interview, but the.
(44:39):
Whatever's happened to yourstory, it's not a period.
Yeah.
There's a.
There's a.
There's a page to be turned,you know, but thank you for your.
Your kind words and for yourlove and your support, and I love
watching what you're doing.
And here's to the nextmillion, you know, because here's
the thing about you innumbers, brother.
You don't.
Numbers represent people.
Yeah.
(45:00):
Sometimes numbers representmoney to people.
That's not Mike.
That's not you.
And I know that's why God'sgoing to keep on blessing it.
So, yeah, man, I'm.
I'm grateful to be your friend.
Don't appreciate you making metrigger cry out of nowhere.
Well, I was trying to hold ittogether because I'm about to.
I almost lost.
I'm like, one of us has tokeep this thing going because.
(45:22):
But you know what, man, as wewrap up and thank you for each and
every one of you tuning in,you gotta share this message, it's
gonna.
I know it's helped you, butit's gonna help somebody else.
You know, the thing, and I'll.
I'll just end on this is Ilove the idea of Turn the page.
The fact that you.
You're calling me man ofintegrity, that did something to
me because I go back to 15years ago, or maybe more now, whatever
(45:46):
it was.
Bella was 2 years old.
That story where my wife leftme and.
And you know, where.
Alcoholic Mic, you know.
Yeah.
It's like to.
To fast forward.
Yeah.
And it's like, if peopleprobably watch and can't even imagine
me being that dude, which iscrazy to me.
You know?
And so it's like, just asequally important to hear that from
(46:08):
you.
Yeah.
That.
Hey, that's my perception.
Like, this is the.
It's like, what.
You know, when people say,like, I hate Mike Signorelli, it's
like, which version did you meet?
Because I probably agree withyou, bro.
Like, which version did you meet?
I hate that guy, too.
It's like the.
The Spider man meme that, you know.
When people come up, say, youknow, I.
I didn't really like you, and.
And you want to tell them youdidn't definitely didn't know me,
(46:29):
whoever you thought you disliked.
But go ahead, please.
Yeah.
Please.
Yeah.
Let me say this because I,before you, before we log off, when
you use the rat in the garbagething, I, I, it's funny because that.
That's a beautiful wordpicture for, like, what ended up
on the front pages was therats in our story.
What.
What wasn't was the garbage.
(46:50):
And the garbage can be cleanedout before the rats come.
And I think that's a.
That's a beautiful.
Could even be a propheticinterjection for somebody right now
who maybe.
Maybe the rats aren't runningall over the sidewalk yet, but you
can.
You can get somebody in thereto inspect that.
That pile of stuff you have inyour soul right now.
(47:11):
Maybe the rats don't ever haveto run over your feet, end up on
a website, whatever it is.
Like, there's.
That's the beautiful thingabout being a Christian, that, that.
No, we get to actually saythat, like, our God is faithful.
He's close to the brokenhearted.
He has never once rejectedsomebody's cry for help, ever.
Yeah.
So I, I think it.
If you are searching aroundyour life, what might you be hiding?
(47:33):
It's a question I love to ask people.
And then why.
So maybe take a step forwardinto, like, okay, well, if Those
guys on YouTube are sayingthere's an area that might be garbage
filled right now that couldproduce rats someday.
Well, here it is.
I don't know.
That's a beautiful first step.
Yeah.
And I don't care howsuccessful you are.
Whatever.
I had a measure of whatever inmy life, and I had a giant.
(47:55):
You know what I thought was asmall piece of garbage was a dump.
Yeah, right, right.
Seagulls flying around.
Yes.
Amen.
PS104, you know, built rightunderneath it.
So.
New York reference.
But, yeah, I think it could bea beautiful thing to just start inspecting.
You don't.
You don't have to have carnageto have breakthrough.
(48:15):
Yeah.
These two things have to come together.
Yeah.
Are we tag team preaching?
Maybe.
Well, I mean, and just to say,because that garbage, for me, when
I look back at it, it waslike, your dad died prematurely,
Mike.
Do you believe you'll die prematurely?
And then is that feelingcreating nihilism, despair.
(48:36):
Then do you not care?
Because when you can't see afuture, I mean, discipline is really
just vision reverse engineered.
So it's like, hey, I seemyself getting here.
So now I'm disciplined becauseI'm reverse engineering that vision.
But when I lost the vision, Iwas like, what if I die young, like
my dad, like my grandpa, likemy gr.
And it was like.
It was the.
But the guard.
(48:56):
So I think when you look down,you're like, it's garbage.
But that's a water bottle.
That's a gut.
You know, it's.
And you.
I think a lot of counseling islike, let's talk about what it is.
Yeah.
It's not just a water bottle.
Yeah.
It's actually.
So there's some abuse in my past.
No, no.
What abuse?
I was a garbage piler.
And.
And some of that stuff in the pile.
If I just would have broughtout that first water bottle.
(49:18):
Yeah.
That's actually not a water bottle.
Yeah.
You got sexually abused whenyou were a kid.
Yeah.
So that's going to affect you.
Yeah.
Oh, there it is in highschool, there it is in college.
There it is when you gotsaved, There it is after you were
saved.
There it is as a preacher.
There it is as.
It's the same water.
Yeah.
And so maybe you.
You start getting that stuffchecked before it becomes a, you
know, a public dump.
(49:39):
But that's.
That's a beautiful, beautifulthing to put your finger on.
So we are garbage collectors today.
Yes.
Yeah.
Come on.
Listen, here's what I'm goingto do, because right now there's
probably a lot of you guys whoare crying, dealing with different
issues.
If you go to the description,I've linked a lot of resources for
you because this is your firststep, not your final step.
Beautiful.
We want you to take your nextstep because God will divinely bring
(50:03):
you into moments like this toopen you up so we can start to deal
with things, and we'll haveall those resources in the description.
I love you guys so much.
Carl, it's a pleasure, man.
Love you.
Thank you.
Such an honor.
Until next time.
Yeah.
Carl Lentz.
You're here.
My brother Mikasa.
I'm in your house here in NewYork City.
Incredible.
Yeah, I, I really appreciateyou, brother.
I think I, I, we talked alittle bit beforehand.
When you meet people in NewYork that are about the, the right
kind of grind, it justresonates with me.
And you've always been thatyou've always been somebody who's
(00:54):
about people and about lettingpeople know there's.
There's a living God.
You can, you can know him ornot, but you're gonna love people
either way.
And I think it's.
It's really special.
My.
My.
My heart, when I come back toNew York, it just, you know, just
fills up with now gratitudeand love.
There was like a.
A little period.
There was tough to.
Tough to function even comingback here.
(01:15):
But seeing men like you, it'sjust cool, man.
I'm really proud of who youare and, and what you represent,
and it's cool to be in yourhouse, brother.
Man, I didn't know we weregonna start with me crying.
Yeah, well, like, it means alot hearing you say that, because
you've been here in the meanstreets, you know, this life, and
it's.
It's incredibly vindicating.
You know, there's been.
I tell people New York City islike the Vietnam of church planting.
(01:38):
So because you see so many ofyour fallen brothers, and I, I, I.
Who's that guy from Forest Gump?
Captain Dan.
Yeah, Lieutenant Dan.
Lieutenant Dan.
I tell because people, I'mlike, I'm not that good.
I'm Lieutenant Dan.
Like, I'm the dude that'slike, I'm missing an eye, my limbs,
and I just wield myself outfor this interview because I just.
I.
But what I do say is I gotthat cockroach anointing.
(02:00):
Yeah.
You know, it's like you candrop in a nuke.
You've kind of got that on you.
Or zombie mode, I call it,where it's like, you can't kill me
a second time already dead.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
He.
One of my friends who's not aChristian, who I love.
He was like, you know, you.
You're like kind of like a cockroach.
And I'm like, you want to fishfor another metaphor, my brother?
You know what I mean?
(02:20):
Like a phoenix.
I'm like, let's go with Phoenix.
Like, I know what you're aboutto say, but, yeah, it's just a little
Hit a nerve.
Yeah.
So funny.
I just own.
I just, man.
Well, you know what?
It's like this guy, JonathanKhan, I was reading one of his books
and this is a mind blowing revelation.
He was talking about how Satanwas referred to as a serpent in.
(02:40):
In the Genesis and then adragon in Revelation, which is coldblooded,
like reptilian.
And then obviously Christbeing the lion of the lamb, which
is warm blooded.
And the whole revelation wascold blooded.
You, you're fast, but youdon't have endurance.
And then warm blooded is forthe long old like you.
You're an endurance creature.
I love that.
And so I feel like, you know,for us, the warm blooded individuals.
(03:04):
Yeah, we just, we're juststill here.
Yeah.
You know, we're still rocking.
And so for you to show up, foryou to be here, as a matter of fact,
it's kind of serendipitous.
I.
I think I'll at least mention this.
Yeah.
You know, I just hit a million subscribers.
Come on, somebody.
And the whole thing was like,man, when we hit a million, I'm gonna
have Carl come.
And it was.
I love this idea of dancing onthe graveyard.
(03:25):
Yeah.
And it was like you and I hadin my mind this triumphant thing
where I'm like, New York Citychurch planter with New York City
church planter.
Carl comes back to New YorkCity and I hit a million subs.
And dude, you can't make this up.
Go.
Can you grab your thing?
Yeah, I'm do.
Yeah, yeah.
Here.
Maybe.
Evan, we're gonna flex it.
This is a.
Is this a soft.
I don't.
I don't even.
(03:45):
I don't even think we cancolor this with a flex.
I like to look at it as.
What a great thing.
This is incredible.
Talk about it.
Well, can we pawn it?
Is this real gold?
One thing I love about beingout of a little bit of the church
mix is the fake humility that,that people don't use in the morals.
(04:05):
Rebuke me, apostle.
No, no, no.
You, you, you.
You can.
It's actually a prettyincredible thing to invade a space
that's filled with so muchstuff that's not helping people.
Yeah.
And you went in there with thereally simple message, bro, and God's
really blessed it, so it'sawesome to see.
Yeah.
Apologize for nothing.
And.
(04:26):
And thank you for that.
Thank you for that.
Because you can't fake yourway to this.
No.
And the thing is, like, peopleknow you.
It's.
They know.
So long story short, this iswhere this becomes like a movie moment.
This to me, right.
I come out here, I start thechurch with 18 people, we launched
seven campuses a decade later.
And then the whole joke was,I'm going to hit a million subscribers
(04:48):
and then Carl's going to come, whatever.
So then my assistant.
So you're on the way, right?
So you're coming.
And then my assistant sends mea message saying, you'll never believe
this.
Your gold play button trackinginformation just came in and it's
literally getting delivered today.
So, like, you and the buttonshowed up at the same time.
Let's go.
I mean, it's just one of thoseweird things.
(05:08):
It's, it's.
It's a.
It's a staple of kind of what,what God's doing with you.
I also say this to the, themillions of people that watch.
So you are, I think the young.
The young people still say areal one.
When you make decisions thatare hard and you fall, you know,
some people don't stick around.
And we've known each other foryears from different angles.
(05:32):
But you didn't abandon thefield, you know, And I think that's
really special.
And I just want to.
For the people that do followyou and trust you and love you, for
as a former minister thatbroke people's trust.
It's cool to be able to alwayspoint to people who say you're a
man of integrity and, and Ithink it's really special.
But that's, that's who thisguy is.
(05:53):
He's not the.
He's not the guy who talks andthen doesn't show.
You've always been encouragingto me and my family, and I appreciate
it.
I'll never forget it.
I have a great long memory,the right way, short memory on the.
On the wrong stuff.
Great memory on the otherstuff, like people who are faithful.
And Chris Durso is another guyin the city that is.
(06:15):
There's just some.
There's some real people out there.
So the guy that has ministeredto you for a long time and does so
probably daily, people who area part of this movement, ministries.
He's the, he's the real deal.
You're a real guy.
Come on, man.
That means a lot.
Well, that's one of the thingsI love about New York City is they
know real.
Knows real.
And it's like, man, you canget away with some stuff outside
(06:35):
of New York City, but you comein here and they're.
They're not having it.
You know, there's a reason whyI came from Indiana and, like, I'm
still here.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
I don't know if you do that.
Do you have guest speakers atyour church?
Yeah, sometimes.
There was a guy who camethrough to preach one time at Hillsong,
and I had him slated to do a couple.
And then after the first one,I was like, man, just.
(06:56):
I can't.
We can't.
We can't run that thing back, brother.
And it's.
No offense.
It's just.
Isn't.
It's not for our people.
Right.
And because you find out realquick that whatever you've been doing,
like, New York has thisbeautiful thing of it where people
are.
They're really genuine andopen and.
And some of the stick or thewhatever you think was working somewhere,
it's like.
But I just never forget thatguy's face.
(07:17):
Like, it just can't do it, brother.
Like, yeah, right.
You know.
Glad you're here.
Appreciate you.
But we got to put, you know, what.
What we do here first.
And so, yeah, New York, NewYork will.
It'll show you colors quick.
It will.
Yeah.
Straight up.
Yeah.
We have to be very intentionalabout who.
Because, you know, it's.
And the other thing too islike, there.
There's not as much likecelebrity Christian culture out here.
(07:40):
You know what I mean?
So you could have a largecrowd at V1 Church and there.
And you're.
I'm.
Name drop.
They're like, we don't knowwho that is and we don't care.
And by the way, can Juliepreach again?
You know, so they just.
My wife is the celebrity ofour church, which I think is awesome.
Yeah.
You know, but it's.
It's so true.
You know, a lot of.
A lot of that stuff is.
Is.
Is.
Is made up culture stuff, youknow, like the whole celebrity vibe
(08:03):
in general, it.
You could even say it's justnot real.
Yeah.
If someone throws these labels around.
Yeah.
Okay.
But on the streets, real lifeoutside of whatever screen you're
watching, it's a different world.
Yeah.
I've never really given a lotof stock to that stuff.
And we obviously got hit withsome of that stuff, but we always
(08:24):
just used to say whatever, youknow, we don't have a lot of time.
Yeah.
To be fishing around some of these.
These labels because it's.
You know, when you do a churchin New York, it's different.
Well, you were always the guytoo, and you still are.
But I just.
So many stories of youministering to people who have no
idea who you are and that you.
And I was telling you thisearlier, but it's just of your primary
(08:45):
giftings is an evangelist, youknow, Dramatic stories that you had
here in the.
In the streets.
And what I loved is like,anybody can have the music playing
behind them.
You know what I mean?
And you set the atmosphere.
And it's like, it's funnybecause one of the ways that I've
kept.
I.
I've sharpened myself out hereis like, try something that worked
on a stage in the streets.
(09:06):
Yeah.
And how many times I've gottenlaughed at, cussed out.
They don't care who I am.
And it's funny because I walkaway from those situations thinking
this made me healthier.
Because you.
You.
When you're in the echochamber and you know it's.
You drop the one line.
Like at our Manhattan campus,I drop a one liner and everyone goes,
wow.
And you know, so where didthat church culture, the.
(09:27):
Wow.
Wow.
And I'm like, from asociological perspective, if somebody
came in, you're like, this isweird, man.
Yeah.
And then you go in the streetand you drop the one liner.
And no.
And no one says, wow.
Yeah.
You know, so.
Yeah, but.
And I love that about.
I think I gleaned that fromyour life when I got here, where
it was like, I need to spendas much time on the streets as I
do the stage.
Or more.
Yeah.
(09:47):
You know what I mean?
That's a beautiful way to put it.
I think I.
My.
I.
I talk to a lot ofcommunicators now, and part of my
primary thing I'm doing ishelping people preach better.
And there is a switch to bemade where a lot of guys, like, I
want to see if what I'm sayingon the stage works in the street.
I said, and perhaps flip that thing.
Yeah.
That was.
(10:08):
If it's working on the street,go ahead and talk about it.
Yeah.
That.
So I was never a sermon prepguy, where I'm going to prepare a
sermon up in a closet, comedown and try to deliver something.
I was more of a.
An overflow from what reallife is happening and what real life
is doing.
And it'll probably help thesepeople as well.
That was always my.
My memo.
And I.
(10:28):
I met with the preacher one time.
He was like, I got all mysermons prepared for the whole year.
And I was like, sounds miserable.
They're probably trash.
How do you do that?
Like, how on earth could.
You know?
Yeah.
And we both love prep.
Like, I'm a huge, obvious,diligent believer in prep.
My point is like, what are you prepping?
Right.
So it's much more fun to seeGod do things in people's lives on
(10:50):
the street and in your ownfamily and in your everyday life,
and then go talk about whatGod's doing as opposed to trying
to get some ethereal thoughtthat might get you a certain look
or feel, but it doesn't have that.
That impact that you and I love.
The impact of watching Godinvade a space.
Oh, my gosh.
It's so.
(11:10):
It's a cool thing to seepeople make a shift from, like, yeah,
maybe the pulpit to the streets.
Yeah.
Chasm doesn't have to be asglaring as it can seem.
Like that's from where I sitnow on the sidelines to a degree
when it comes to preaching.
I see guys preaching a lot.
I just say, I hope.
I hope there's a new wave ofguys that are going to come out of
(11:31):
the street into the pulpit asopposed to guys trying to see if
this is going to work out there.
Here's my church.
(12:14):
You know, I think, yeah,there's a beautiful mix in there
somewhere.
I feel it.
It's almost like if it workson the stage, it might not work on
the streets, but if it workson the streets, it probably works
three times better on the stage.
Yes.
And that's how you don't loseyour edge.
Yeah.
And it also has humbled mebecause I'm like, wow, I'm not that
good, you know, like.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Because.
And I think New York City, Ihad this weird relationship with
(12:37):
this city because it is like alove hate, you know, because it's.
It's the.
It's that Dickens, you know,the best at times, worst at times.
The Tale of Two Cities, youknow, and.
And I know, you know that, youknow, you know, you.
You were out there, you're evangelizing.
I feel like in.
So, I feel like in so manyways, you were like a marked man
spiritually, because it's likeyou have the nations come to New
(13:01):
York City.
You know, it's like, forexample, I.
I got the mayor's approvalhere to do a Times Square event.
My expectations were low.
The thing.
Yeah.
Wow.
That's a whole other story.
I can't wait.
For those watching, you maynot know.
So I.
I did a live stream from myphone outside of this house, and
it went viral that night,which was.
It was me talking about thelone wolf situation here in the city.
(13:24):
It was a political thing, butI gave, like, a spiritual message.
I love it.
I.
And I.
I hesitate to say this onfilm, but I'm just gonna, you know,
whatever, we'll go there.
You know, I get a WhatsAppfrom the New York City Mayor's office.
Which that kind of freaked me out.
It's like at first I thoughtit was spam, you know, and then it
was like, hey, you know, we'rerequesting your presence at Gracie
(13:45):
Mansion.
So I'm thinking like, this iseither really good or really bad,
you know.
So I show up the next day andthe guys were basically like, hey,
we want to say this, but we can't.
Thank you for saying this,which is kind of crazy.
So then I try to use that opendoor to open another door and was
like, hey, I want to do like atime square event, blah, blah, blah.
(14:07):
So they approve it.
And I'm.
I mean when you see thefootage, the whole thing, it looks
like a New York.
A New Year's Eve.
Wow service.
Check it out.
Which, which was.
But my point, even bringingthat up is like, you know, when,
when to do that.
It's like if I did a event ofthat magnitude in terms of people
in, in Idaho, shout out all myIdaho folks watching right now, it's
(14:30):
not going to.
Yeah, but you put that amountof people in Times Square and it's
like, I mean, I wasinternationally syndicated news that
next week because there'ssomething about this being the crossroads
of the world and you.
I know.
You know, and so that was likea huge moment for me, like kind of
like a milestone moment.
But it also made me aware ofthe spiritual significance.
(14:53):
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
So, so the thing I, I used to.
And I.
This is the first time I'mever saying this to you, but like,
I would pray for you.
Thank you deeply, man.
I'm talking intercede.
Because part of it was likeyou're literally plundering.
There's that phrase I always use.
If you're not in a head oncollision with the devil, it's because
you're both run in the same direction.
(15:14):
Yikes.
And so it was like for you,you're just, you're out here just
plundering hell, raising uppeople to do it.
It was more like apostolicwith, with the evangelistic, you
know what I mean?
And the whole time I think forme, I looked at the spiritual implications
of it.
I'm like, there's a, there's alot of demons mad at this dude.
So I mean, I don't know if youfeel comfortable, like.
(15:35):
Yeah, if you could go back inyour mind to that era of like what
it was like to be public enemynumber one in Satan's kingdom.
Yeah, I mean I.
It was I, I, I, There's a, wetypically either overplay it or underplay
it.
Yeah.
When it comes to spiritual darkness.
And I think I, I have a greatmom and dad who taught me really
(15:58):
well about, about that.
And, and even, you know, mypastor at the time, Brian, and, and
Hillsong in general was very,very tuned into, you know, the, the
spiritual stuff that we can'tput our finger on a lot.
And I feel like I probablycould have done more to get more
(16:19):
help when it came to theheaviness of what I would feel every
day.
And everybody, everybodywatching has their own unique heaviness
that's going to come withtheir life.
And for me in New York, Ididn't, I just, we just hit the ground
running and then you wake upsome days you're like, man, I'm really
sore.
Like, spiritually, like, I don't.
(16:39):
And you just try to pushthrough it.
Whereas I know now it wouldhave been a call, it would have been
a, hey, I don't know what thisis, but just, just pray because I'm
not feeling good or I'mfeeling this, I'm feeling that I
just was so close to reachingout for my own life.
I was really good at reachingout to other, really good at teaching
other people to reach out.
When it came to me, actuallyput my hand up, you know, I didn't,
(17:02):
I didn't, I would do that differently.
And so I, but the spiritualweight of that era was something
special.
I counted it as a reverent honor.
So that head on collision, I'msure you're crazy like me, where
it's like, if there's notsomething wild happening, I'm not
doing my fricking job.
(17:23):
So if I'm not getting 10reports before a service starts about
some sort of drama, are weeven existing?
So there, sometimes there'd bea challenge.
I'll be like, thank Godthere's no power randomly.
Yeah.
The whole day.
Right.
Thank God there's a parade again.
How many effing parades can wehave in New York?
We had a parade last hour andhere we are again.
(17:45):
Hey, just so you know, Carl,all the streets are shut down.
No one can get to the servicebecause we've got parades.
It's like, cool.
But I, so I, I was always upfor the fight.
But I think there is a levelof wisdom that comes with the humility
to get help that I didn't, Ididn't access.
Yeah.
(18:06):
And so that's, that's, that'show when I look back at that one.
That one angle of it.
Boy, it would have been.
It would have been reallyhelpful to let some people know what
I was dealing with.
Yeah, well, it's like we'veall been so inspired by your counseling
journey, you know, and as achurch, like, we.
Scholarship, all kinds of counseling.
I mean, we have a largenational network of people.
(18:27):
People that.
I mean, it's.
It's.
We believe in that, and we'vebeen following your journey.
That's why you're awesome, though.
Mike, there's not like.
There's not a lot, you knowhow I feel about your camp, and I
say that lovingly.
It's not.
It's not a camp.
But why I think you stand outis because you use your whole brain,
the entire thing God gave you,you use it all.
Yeah.
It's not either or.
It's not like people whobelieve in therapy don't.
(18:48):
Don't discount the supernatural.
No, man.
If you're really tuned insupernaturally, you'll be in a therapist
office because you know whatyou need.
So I.
I love the fact that you'reable to just be smart with both,
man.
I appreciate that.
I appreciate that.
Well, I mean, right now I'mdoing hyperbaric oxygen therapy,
which is incredible for your brain.
It is, and it's really helpingme a lot.
(19:09):
Yeah.
But here's my thing.
I knew all about deliveranceand spiritual warfare and still cheated
on my wife, still became analcoholic, still stepped out of ministry.
Yeah.
It's like our stories areidentical, just 15 years apart.
Yeah.
I just.
I had a smaller audience forit than you did, you know?
And.
And so it was crazy because Iwas like, wow, there has to be more.
(19:30):
It's.
You can't counsel a demon, butyou can't cast out a mental issue.
Right.
So it's like I had that.
That's where the wisdom came from.
And.
And so for me, it's like I'mreally just prescribing people what
worked for me.
I'm the crash test dummy of myministry, where I'm like, hey, here's.
Here's what worked, you know?
Yeah.
And.
And unfortunately, I had tolearn the hard way because I was
(19:52):
the guy who over spiritualizeduntil I realized, this is not working.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
And experience taught me.
And what's crazy, I ended upfinding this guy.
Well, so, you know, a lot ofmy viewers know this, but like I
mentioned to you, my dad dies prematurely.
I'm fatherless.
I had multiple abusive stepdads.
I was raised in extremepoverty, gang ridden neighborhoods,
(20:12):
blah, blah, blah.
So all of a sudden, now here Iam, Pastor Mike, and I'm like, I
hadn't dealt with all this stuff.
So that was.
But I had dealt with it on ademonic level or, you know, we say
strongholds, but I was like, Ineed someone.
So for me, basically whathappened was it got so bad at the
height of my alcoholism, Icame home one day and my house is
(20:33):
completely empty, but drunkout of my mind.
I think it was clean.
So in my mind, I'm thinking,man, Julie really cleaned good today.
And then when I sobered up, Iwas like, oh, she's gone.
You know, like, my wife left me.
And.
And, you know, of course thatmade things worse.
I spiraled more.
But eventually I reached acrossroads where I was like, I'm
(20:55):
gonna find help.
So I went to this counselorwho was like, fully medical and fully
Christian, which is kind of ananomaly, as you know.
It's hard to find those dudes.
Yeah.
And then I'm sitting in thecounseling session, and then I start
getting angry because I'mlike, I have to pay a man to care
about me.
This is so jacked up.
Like, my pastor never caredabout me, you know, blah, blah.
(21:16):
And I, you know, all those wounds.
So I literally just talk aboutdropping f bombs.
I just cussed this dude out.
Yeah, he waits till I'm done.
He's like, like, are you done?
I'm like, well, yeah, youknow, and he was like, well, here.
Here's the deal.
You don't have to pay me ever again.
I want to see you every single week.
And I.
I believe in you, and I wantyou to be here.
(21:37):
And this dude just broke thisorphan thing off me.
So I went on this journey withhim for a long time.
And it was funny because I wasstruggling with alcoholism.
Like, I.
When I say it was clinicallydiagnosed, you know how people say
it?
And you're like, no, you justhad a couple rager parties.
It was like, I had a drunk.
Yeah, y know, I'm.
(21:58):
I'm going.
And so what he did is he said,I want you to.
I want you to start visitingall the places over Chicagoland where
the abuse and the trauma happened.
And I want you to ask God,where were you when it happened to
me?
So I'm like, oh, this is goingto be fun.
You know, this.
This can be.
So what happened, though?
The very first location I showup to where some really bad stuff
(22:20):
happened to me, I'm like,okay, God, I'm doing it.
This counselor wants.
I'm like, where were you whenit happened?
And this is.
This is the revelation I gotis in that moment, I felt like the
Holy Spirit said, I'm notbound by time.
I'm.
I'm actually still there.
I'm in that moment.
Like, you're bound by time,but not me.
So where am I?
(22:42):
I'm in 1983, and.
And I can touch you right nowif you'll allow.
And that's God's version of healing.
So I'm going through thesecrazy experiences where I'm being
triggered.
It's getting worse, it'sgetting better.
You know how, like, you knowthat whole roller coaster you go
on?
I relate.
Yeah.
And so what happened was oneweek I just decided, like, I don't
(23:06):
want to drink anymore.
And so I come in and I tellthe guy.
He's like, yeah, I thought itwould happen this week or next week.
And he had, like, charted thisthing out.
He was that good.
He was an older guy, had beendoing it for, like, four decades,
and he charted out my journey.
So I think what happened is Ibecame the test tube experiment for
this stuff where I was like,it's cruelty to tell somebody it's
(23:30):
a demon when they need counseling.
It's.
It's actually cruelty becauseI was subjected to that unbalanced
bad theology.
Wow.
You know what I mean?
And.
And so watching you kind of goon that journey as well, where it's
holistic has been inspiring.
So I don't know if you want tokind of, like, piggyback off of that.
I mean, holistic is a great word.
I think.
I.
I mean, you just said it beautifully.
(23:51):
I think there has to be.
I think if you have aChristian, a follower of Jesus, that
is really aware of theirmental health, aware of their neuropath
in their brain chemicals andtheir tendencies, and they're really
aware of the spiritual realm,they're hard to stop now.
(24:17):
Either one alone, easy to stop.
You get that spiritual guywho's like, ah, therapy, whatever.
Need dead man walking.
Get the guy over here who'sall therapy, all brain, dead man
walking.
There's this beautiful placeto get to where it's like, now I'm
a child of God.
I love Jesus.
I know God has a plan for mylife, and because of that, I can
(24:40):
then go pursue the things thatGod has opened up for me to get help.
That combo to me is.
Is everything.
And I think there's a.
There's a wave, and yourepresent a lot of what that can
be.
Of people who can really talkabout both.
And.
And that's where that's the.
To me, the recipe that's goingto bring continual revival is it's.
(25:01):
I mean, right now it's reallycool to talk about mental health.
It's like therapy has becomelike church almost.
I say, oh, I go to church.
I go to therapy.
Okay, I got you.
But that's going to swing backbecause that's empty.
And just like, it's been empty.
Hollow church, where you'regoing to rant and rave about stuff,
but there's no power.
Yeah.
That middle ground for me is.
Is the therapy side of things.
(25:23):
Really, really helped me.
Really helped me.
I went to a rehab, and Ithought that I was going there for
one reason.
And I remember the guy said,you know, I kept asking for my medication.
They're like, hey, you know,we're not going to be giving you
that here.
And I'm like, well, you gotanother thing coming, my brother,
because I didn't come here for that.
I came here for this.
And they're like, yeah, well,we're going to tell you what you're
(25:45):
here for.
And I'm like, see that?
That doesn't work for me, youknow, And I literally got into a
pretty close to a physicalaltercation with this sweet therapist
in the middle of Arizona.
Flipped a table, packed all mystuff up.
Yeah.
And.
And then I was like, oh, Imight be an addict.
Anytime someone tries to takesomething from you and your.
Your response is visceral, youmight want to look into that.
(26:08):
But it was moments like thatwhere God is kind with the way that
he will unwind.
Truth.
You need to see if you can sitthere long enough to let him do it.
And in our world where wecan't sit down long enough to watch
a whole video, people don'thave a lot of time.
Right.
For God to unwind anything.
Yeah.
And I don't look at mysituation as a crash and burn, you
(26:30):
know, I look at my situationas a graceful God who helped me see
things brighter.
Yeah.
And that's my situation.
Yeah.
I'm glad it's mine because Iget to talk about what it is to me.
And so to me, I look at whathappened to me and I said, God was
so kind to allow my vision toexpand, man.
This is as.
As important as all this stuffis that that is now severely damaged,
in which God can always redeemand always bless and always help.
(26:54):
But you.
There's some stuff in you thathas to change.
And so finding that Balancewas a beautiful thing, but you have
to sit still long enough tolet God do it.
Yeah.
And often when I talk topeople, it's like, how I want to
get free of this.
Okay, cool.
I get that.
How much work do you want to do?
Yes, that's the better.
And the question is not, doyou want to be free?
(27:15):
Question is, how much work areyou willing to do?
Yeah, but if it's freedom,shouldn't it be instant?
Eh, depends on what idiotyou're listening to preach every
week.
Because I don't see instantfreedom in the Gospels.
I don't see Peter not.
Not denying Jesus after hewalked with this brother.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, there's examples thatgive us a real.
No, real clear view ofhumanity and the people that we love
(27:37):
so much, we forget that.
Yeah.
Like, if the.
The guys that walk with Jesusneeded time to process who he was
and who they were, who are weto think?
Yeah, there might be somecounseling sessions in your future.
Doesn't mean you're less spiritual.
Doesn't mean you don't haveany faith.
It just means you're smart.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yes.
I.
I did very little therapybefore all this.
(27:57):
Huge proponent of it.
Like, I remember, I.
I wasn't the first guy, but Iwas in that first wave of people
standing up saying, it's okayto not be O.
But for me, it was like, I.
I don't know.
I mean, I.
I can go to a level, but therewas a wall in me where I was even
lying to myself.
Forget about being honest withmy wife Laura, or a counselor.
(28:18):
It's like I was too busy lyingto myself to be able to even get
the kind of help I needed.
So there's a.
There's a couple moments inthere for people to even dissect
their own life and forget about.
Are you honest with people?
Yeah, I like the question.
Are you honest with yourself?
Yeah, that's it.
There's power.
There's.
(29:29):
Yeah, well, so many young guys.
I mean, I get hundreds ofmessages a month from, hey, can you
cast out the demon of lust?
And it's like, let me ask you this.
Yeah, exactly.
Let me ask you a better question.
You know, when were you molested?
And have.
And have you dealt with that?
And what's the root of it?
Or what's your anxiety level?
(29:49):
And how are you medicatinganxiety with love?
So let you talk about the rootsystem, and it's like, you start
talking on that level, it'slike, man, they don't even because
they're looking for a quickfix, which I think contributes to
a culture of condemnation.
Because they're like, I didall the things the guy told me to
do.
The demons came out, but thennow here I am falling back into it.
(30:10):
It's like, well, maybe you didneed deliverance.
But yeah, the discipline iswhat you're talking about, where
it's like, we.
We got to go to the roots.
Like, for me, I was a self sabotager.
Yeah.
So I was the kind of guy thatwas like, oh, life's not fair.
I won't destroy you.
I'll destroy myself.
And so I was trapped in thesecycles of trying realizing things
(30:32):
aren't working out and thendestroying myself.
Yeah.
And then everybody around mewas a casualty of my own self destruction,
you know, and so I was trappedin that.
Yeah.
And it was.
It was so much.
And I feel like it's almostlike this.
Like this is how I'veexplained it before.
Here in New York City, we got.
We got rats the size of cats.
(30:52):
We do.
But wherever you find garbage,you find rats.
So this is a complex problembecause it's like we have to deal
with the garbage problem todeal with the rat problem.
It.
You know, it, it's.
And so for me, it's like, oh,yeah, there might be some demonic
stuff influencing yoursituation, but you got a garbage
problem, bro.
Like, you're feeding this.
(31:12):
You're beautiful, you know,and so I kind of.
I think there's a level of complexity.
But here's the problem, Carl.
And I know, you know, this is.
This kind of talk doesn't go viral.
Right.
But then when I say somethingthat has to.
When I do speak, you know, that's.
That's like, oh, you know, AndI think for me, I've kind of.
Even in my own personalministry, I've been dealing with
(31:33):
that avatar of who MikeSignorelli is.
And then people come into V1church and like, oh, everything's
not a demon here.
And you know, whatever.
And I was like, yes, we're areal church.
You.
You know, and then we'regiving them scholarships to counseling
sessions, and they're like.
I said the guy I wanted tocome see.
Yeah, this is confusing.
And actually, some of them whoare like spiritual vagabonds, they
(31:54):
leave angry and they go find.
Yeah.
A person that will tell them what.
They want to hear.
Yeah, man.
And so it's like, what.
What I love about what you.
What I see you doing is nottrying to deny the reality of the
supernatural.
The influence of Dark.
You know, the darkness, butalso the complexities of it.
Yeah.
Something I've been dying toask you about, you know, because
(32:15):
we're kind of in the grandfinale territory right now.
And I've always wanted to askyou about people throw this term
revivalist around and what I.
When I look at your life, I.
I see an overarching theme.
Because even, Even with you,like, hey, why doesn't revival affect
your mind?
Yeah.
Why, why, why did your spiritcome back to life but not your brain?
Because my brain is the problem.
(32:36):
Or why.
You know, physical.
Yeah.
And.
And I remember this one time Iwas at Hillsong NYC service because
we'd hang out in the eveningswith all those dudes and whatever.
Yeah.
And you just had one of those,like, last service of the day, you
preached all day and then youdropped this atomic bomb and something
happened where it's just.
Everybody just got sucked tothe stage.
(32:56):
And I remember seeing you onstage, like you could barely stand
up.
Yeah, you were.
And you were just.
It was just madness.
I remember Evan and I, who'soff camera just balling our eyes
out be.
Because we moved our wholelife here to see those moments of
response.
And we were like the guys withthe 40 person church.
This is before the seven campuses.
This is before the stuff I'mdoing now, before the Times Square
(33:19):
moment.
And you represented like itwas, like it is possible.
Because when I got here, Iwould say, I would tell people the
vision I had for New York City.
And 100% of pastors would say,say, Mike, we want to adjust your
expectations.
And they thought they werehelping me, but it was Saul's armor.
And they were just saying,listen, bro, people come out here,
(33:40):
you know, with way more, youknow, you're just.
We're.
They're trying to help me.
Yeah.
But I remember seeing thatservice and I remember it was like,
you're under the weight of theglory of God and people are surging.
And dude, I was in the crowd.
Yeah.
So we're meeting people whoare Hindus, atheists, agnostics.
I mean, you people don'tunderstand, bro, what you were doing
here, it wasn't the Bible Bell.
(34:02):
It wasn't.
This was the jungle.
It is.
You know.
You know what I'm saying?
And so I remember watchingthat moment and being like, this
is I.
(35:15):
And I.
Forgive me if I'm steppingover the line, but it felt like historically
significant and.
And I think your story will.
Will have to be told inretrospect because.
Because you're on this other.
And So I think the overarchingtitle for your life is Revivalist,
because wherever you.
Whatever you step into, youbring things back to life, and you've
(35:38):
been doing it in phases, and that's.
I think this journey, if I canspeak prophetically for you right
now, is like a revival of thebiological mind.
A revival of.
We're working on the secondmovie right now, and the title, the
theme of the movie is familyis revival.
So you're bringing your kids,you know, you're putting on the podcast.
(35:59):
But what goes through yourmind when you think about what it
means to be.
Because I know there was avisceral, emotional response to that,
and.
And I.
You know, But I want to say itpublicly to a million subscribers.
One of the greatestrevivalists of our generation's name
is Carl Lentz.
And I believe that.
(36:20):
I saw it, but the crazy thingis I'm still seeing it.
Yeah.
And I saw people surged to thestage when we were in that venue
in Manhattan, but people aresurging to YouTube, and it's actually
a bigger.
And I felt like the Lord wasshowing me, like, what.
What Carl's doing now isliterally greater than what he did
before.
It's just that it's digital,not physical in many ways.
(36:43):
So you want to kind of, like,speak to that?
No, I think it.
It definitely.
I.
I remember, you know, you everhad those moments where you're like,
(37:16):
if I don't stop this cry.
Yeah, man.
Let it go.
Rap.
No, no, like, let it out.
There are cries, and they'relike, there, there's.
I've learned to recognize whatkind of tears are flowing, which
comes through some work aswell, let me tell you.
Different types of tears.
Who knew?
No, I remember, you know,moments like that or.
And things like that.
(37:37):
And I think it's.
It's one of those.
It's beautiful.
It's a beautiful.
One of the things that sucksabout making decisions that.
That have a.
Have a huge consequence beyondwhat you can see is, you know, you
put.
There's a time where your workand what you did that was right.
You know, you put it in thehands of other people to question
that's a consequence.
(37:57):
Doesn't stay like that.
God redeems.
But there are parts of that.
That journey that.
That were marred or covered for.
For a season, because I.
I put some of that in avulnerable position.
And to those parts, I'll get there.
(38:25):
Well, let me.
Let me say why you get it.
Yeah.
Because.
And if you want to cry, youkeep letting it out.
No, no, but let me tell you why.
Because I believe that thereis an element of vindication.
You know, the Bible talksabout wood, haste, double.
You know, it's like when thefire comes, there's things that remain.
Pain.
Yeah.
And those were, like,irrevocable moments.
Yeah.
Of true revival that weren't filmed.
(38:48):
Yeah.
You.
This is what people understand.
We didn't do this.
And I'm not fangirling right now.
It's like, I.
I have devoted my life to this man.
Yeah.
And as a practitioner, I'msaying there was.
You didn't have a D Rockfollowing you around so you can get
the next viral clip of youdoing revival.
You did it in the streets, inthe local bodegas.
You did it on stage.
(39:08):
And those services are.
They only exist in our minds.
Yeah.
I don't even think there'sarchival footage of this stuff.
Yeah.
And.
And I just felt like.
And that was kind of the lastthing I wanted to ask you about for
this.
Yeah.
Because I.
I wanted to acknowledge you asa revivalist.
Thank you.
And I.
I believe history will reflectwhat I said.
(39:29):
And.
And I.
And.
But I think what.
What happens is.
Let me say this.
When you're two steps ahead ofpeople, you're their leader.
When you're 10 steps ahead,you're their martyr.
And you've always been ahead.
So it's like, because youchase up ahead what God's doing,
you're a forerunner.
And so that's caused a levelof martyrdom for you.
But as somebody who's nowliving in your.
(39:51):
Yes.
Living in your.
Yes.
Stewarding many of the peoplethat were a part of that who are
now at our various campuses.
They are.
I just wanted to tell you.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Now, you're.
You're an amazing place forthem to be able to have gone, I think.
Yeah.
There's so much about thatpart of our.
Our chapter and story that I'mglad that God redeems because we.
(40:15):
You know, what we saw here, ithad never happened.
Yeah.
And.
And that's not something thatI'm gonna always necessarily say,
but when.
When your mistakes can havepeople almost try to reduce a move
of God to some salacious thingthat's half true anyway.
It's one of those things whereyou want to remind people when they're
(40:35):
on that doorstep of sin,that's going to destroy stuff, really
count that cost.
You know, because there's, like.
(40:56):
Neither of us do, like,structured interview stuff.
Yeah.
And I'm regretting it nowbecause I would have seen this Question.
Come and be like, mike, I'mnot doing it.
Not with a million.
No.
No freaking way.
Yeah, we did it.
We did prepare for this.
No, I think, I think it'sjust, it's a beautiful, like when
God gives you something tosteward, count the cost.
And it's hard to hear if Iwould have been on the other side
(41:22):
of this, listening to someonehave this combo, I probably would
have said, well, I am counting it.
But I look back at that eraand it just.
There's so many amazingpeople, and I saw God do so much.
Where some people ask, how didyou get up?
I'm like, man, you've seenwhat I've seen, brother.
Like, I'm not God.
Didn't fail me like, I a day, right?
(41:45):
What we saw, I was just soblessed to be a part of that.
I remember services like that.
I remember seeing the tangiblepresence of God change people's lives.
And yeah, it's a, it's a, it'sa beautiful feeling I have just thinking
about even some of the mantleof that that God has bestowed on
you and what you're doing and,and stuff that we, we were never,
(42:07):
we didn't do do.
Like, the, the gift that youhave right now to reach people digitally
is really special.
But yeah, I think, I thinkwhen I think about revival, we serve
a God that can, in the blinkof an eye, turn anything around,
any situation around, any mistake.
I, I am proof of that.
Like, I always tell people,like, I'm 46.
(42:30):
I'm not 96.
Come on.
Like, our stories are long and everybody.
I have a chapter of mine thatwas, that was, that was hard and
happened to be really public.
But the outweighing memory andgratitude I have to be a part of,
like, when people speculate ortry to judge stories they don't know,
it's human nature to just takethe little bit of information you
(42:52):
have and just try to destroysomebody's whole life.
Not when you've seen the stuffthat you and I have seen.
Yeah.
And, and I'm, I'm reallygrateful that, you know, New York
has, has men of integrity thatare stewarding that platform well.
And I, I, I'm, I'm gratefulfor the, for the New York time that
we spent on the, on the battlefields.
(43:14):
But I think I'm trying to goback to the, the impetus of my floodgate
tier issue that I was about to have.
It's just because it, it'sthat that lane is open.
You know, it, you running it,you stay in it.
And I could.
I mean, there's a huge lanethat is still waiting to be occupied
by many people who are willingjust to be faithful, to step out.
(43:37):
Like, you come in here.
I mean, we're in your house inQueens, overlooking the greatest
city on Earth.
If you would have told you 10years ago, Mike, this is your story,
you would have been like, andif he's done it for you, can do it
for anybody.
If he's done it for me, eventhis chapter, if he's done it for
me, like, as I sit here today,I have a wife, I have a family.
(43:57):
Family that's better thanthey've ever been.
I have, like.
So even through all that messand destruction, that's how faithful
our God is.
So I'm not an example of whathappens when somebody messes up.
You know, I think.
I hope I will always be anexample of somebody who presses in.
And regardless of thecircumstances, regardless of the
sin, regardless of what you'vebeen faced with, you know, there's
(44:17):
nothing that can hold down aman or woman of God that chooses
to put their hand up again.
Yeah.
And that's.
That's kind of a message I'veenjoyed leaning on.
I've been the guy on the frontof the stage heaving my guts out
for a season.
Right now I'm.
I'm a guy in a differentposition still with the same passion,
but he's able to say, hey, bythe way, I don't know what you're
going through.
I don't know why you clickedon this interview, but the.
(44:39):
Whatever's happened to yourstory, it's not a period.
Yeah.
There's a.
There's a.
There's a page to be turned,you know, but thank you for your.
Your kind words and for yourlove and your support, and I love
watching what you're doing.
And here's to the nextmillion, you know, because here's
the thing about you innumbers, brother.
You don't.
Numbers represent people.
Yeah.
(45:00):
Sometimes numbers representmoney to people.
That's not Mike.
That's not you.
And I know that's why God'sgoing to keep on blessing it.
So, yeah, man, I'm.
I'm grateful to be your friend.
Don't appreciate you making metrigger cry out of nowhere.
Well, I was trying to hold ittogether because I'm about to.
I almost lost.
I'm like, one of us has tokeep this thing going because.
(45:22):
But you know what, man, as wewrap up and thank you for each and
every one of you tuning in,you gotta share this message, it's
gonna.
I know it's helped you, butit's gonna help somebody else.
You know, the thing, and I'll.
I'll just end on this is Ilove the idea of Turn the page.
The fact that you.
You're calling me man ofintegrity, that did something to
me because I go back to 15years ago, or maybe more now, whatever
(45:46):
it was.
Bella was 2 years old.
That story where my wife leftme and.
And you know, where.
Alcoholic Mic, you know.
Yeah.
It's like to.
To fast forward.
Yeah.
And it's like, if peopleprobably watch and can't even imagine
me being that dude, which iscrazy to me.
You know?
And so it's like, just asequally important to hear that from
(46:08):
you.
Yeah.
That.
Hey, that's my perception.
Like, this is the.
It's like, what.
You know, when people say,like, I hate Mike Signorelli, it's
like, which version did you meet?
Because I probably agree withyou, bro.
Like, which version did you meet?
I hate that guy, too.
It's like the.
The Spider man meme that, you know.
When people come up, say, youknow, I.
I didn't really like you, and.
And you want to tell them youdidn't definitely didn't know me,
(46:29):
whoever you thought you disliked.
But go ahead, please.
Yeah.
Please.
Yeah.
Let me say this because I,before you, before we log off, when
you use the rat in the garbagething, I, I, it's funny because that.
That's a beautiful wordpicture for, like, what ended up
on the front pages was therats in our story.
What.
What wasn't was the garbage.
(46:50):
And the garbage can be cleanedout before the rats come.
And I think that's a.
That's a beautiful.
Could even be a propheticinterjection for somebody right now
who maybe.
Maybe the rats aren't runningall over the sidewalk yet, but you
can.
You can get somebody in thereto inspect that.
That pile of stuff you have inyour soul right now.
(47:11):
Maybe the rats don't ever haveto run over your feet, end up on
a website, whatever it is.
Like, there's.
That's the beautiful thingabout being a Christian, that, that.
No, we get to actually saythat, like, our God is faithful.
He's close to the brokenhearted.
He has never once rejectedsomebody's cry for help, ever.
Yeah.
So I, I think it.
If you are searching aroundyour life, what might you be hiding?
(47:33):
It's a question I love to ask people.
And then why.
So maybe take a step forwardinto, like, okay, well, if Those
guys on YouTube are sayingthere's an area that might be garbage
filled right now that couldproduce rats someday.
Well, here it is.
I don't know.
That's a beautiful first step.
Yeah.
And I don't care howsuccessful you are.
Whatever.
I had a measure of whatever inmy life, and I had a giant.
(47:55):
You know what I thought was asmall piece of garbage was a dump.
Yeah, right, right.
Seagulls flying around.
Yes.
Amen.
PS104, you know, built rightunderneath it.
So.
New York reference.
But, yeah, I think it could bea beautiful thing to just start inspecting.
You don't.
You don't have to have carnageto have breakthrough.
(48:15):
Yeah.
These two things have to come together.
Yeah.
Are we tag team preaching?
Maybe.
Well, I mean, and just to say,because that garbage, for me, when
I look back at it, it waslike, your dad died prematurely,
Mike.
Do you believe you'll die prematurely?
And then is that feelingcreating nihilism, despair.
(48:36):
Then do you not care?
Because when you can't see afuture, I mean, discipline is really
just vision reverse engineered.
So it's like, hey, I seemyself getting here.
So now I'm disciplined becauseI'm reverse engineering that vision.
But when I lost the vision, Iwas like, what if I die young, like
my dad, like my grandpa, likemy gr.
And it was like.
It was the.
But the guard.
(48:56):
So I think when you look down,you're like, it's garbage.
But that's a water bottle.
That's a gut.
You know, it's.
And you.
I think a lot of counseling islike, let's talk about what it is.
Yeah.
It's not just a water bottle.
Yeah.
It's actually.
So there's some abuse in my past.
No, no.
What abuse?
I was a garbage piler.
And.
And some of that stuff in the pile.
If I just would have broughtout that first water bottle.
(49:18):
Yeah.
That's actually not a water bottle.
Yeah.
You got sexually abused whenyou were a kid.
Yeah.
So that's going to affect you.
Yeah.
Oh, there it is in highschool, there it is in college.
There it is when you gotsaved, There it is after you were
saved.
There it is as a preacher.
There it is as.
It's the same water.
Yeah.
And so maybe you.
You start getting that stuffchecked before it becomes a, you
know, a public dump.
(49:39):
But that's.
That's a beautiful, beautifulthing to put your finger on.
So we are garbage collectors today.
Yes.
Yeah.
Come on.
Listen, here's what I'm goingto do, because right now there's
probably a lot of you guys whoare crying, dealing with different
issues.
If you go to the description,I've linked a lot of resources for
you because this is your firststep, not your final step.
Beautiful.
We want you to take your nextstep because God will divinely bring
(50:03):
you into moments like this toopen you up so we can start to deal
with things, and we'll haveall those resources in the description.
I love you guys so much.
Carl, it's a pleasure, man.
Love you.
Thank you.
Such an honor.
Until next time.
Yeah.
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