September 11, 2023 • 31 mins
Feliciano School of Business faculty members in the department of Information Management and Business Analytics, Dr. Mahmoud ElHussini and Dr. George Elias discuss issues and problems being faced by business professionals. On this podcast, they discuss how to manage teams with difference levels of competence and dynamics. Dr. Moe and Dr. George breakdown issues and problems being encountered by entrepreneurs, executives, and all levels of managers.
Co-Hosts Background:
Mahmoud (Moe) Elhussini, MS, MBA, DBA, is an Instructor Specialist at Montclair State University. He is also the president and founder of The Growth Coach Allentown - Somerville. A consulting and business coaching company. Moe has worked in data & operations management for over a decade. He then switched to business consulting, helping companies build ERP and customer interface systems. After that he transitioned into international business development, helping companies manage their internal organic growth or through mergers and strategic alliances. Moe has published a couple of handbooks, one on emotional intelligence and another on servant leadership. He is currently working on a third that revolves around overcoming sales objections. Moe has a BA in Biology from Rutgers University, an MBA in Global Management, and MS in Information Management, and a DBA in Geopolitics and Strategy. At Montclair University, Moe is part of the Information Management and Business Analytics Department. He teaches Business Decision Making, Operations Management, and Statistics in Business courses.
George Elias, Ph.D., PMP is Chief Systems Engineer for Space and Airborne Systems leading initiatives in integrated spectrum management and mission avionics at L3Harris Technologies. Additionally, Dr. Elias is as an adjunct professor at Montclair State University’s department of information management & business analytics where he teaches business operations and statistics. Dr. Elias is experienced in leading the development and production of complex hardware and software system solutions including: electronic warfare systems, communication systems, and space systems. Previously, Dr. Elias served as the Director of Capture Excellence & Business Development Operations for the Electronic Warfare Sector. As an L3Harris Technologies Certified Enterprise Capture Lead, Dr. Elias was responsible for directing large, complex pursuits across the enterprise. In addition to systems engineering and business development, Dr. Elias has held roles in finance, quality assurance, operations/manufacturing, modeling and simulation, project engineering, program management, and Internal Research and Development (IRAD). Dr. Elias has a Doctorate in Systems Engineering, a Masters Certificate in Project Management, and a Masters in Computer Science from Stevens Institute of Technology. Additionally, Dr. Elias has a Bachelors in Computer Information Systems from Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey & New Jersey Institute of Technology. Finally, Dr. Elias has a Mini-MBA from Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello everybody, welcome back to our podcast.
Back to Basics.
I am Moe Hussaini and I'm herewith my good friend, george
Elias.
How are you doing, george?
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Doing great.
Moe.
It's a busy beginning to thesemester, but it's nice to do
these podcasts with you.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
How's the weather going Baye?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Well, today was supposed to be a reasonably good
day, but it's been on and off,thunderstorms and pouring Again.
It's a nice activity to doinside as you're recording
podcasts.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Yes, the feeling is mutual.
I actually love the summer, thefall and the changes in seasons
.
I'm looking forward toHalloween and Turkey Day.
But tell me, what do you havein mind?
What do you want to talk abouttoday?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Moe, we've been talking back and forth on the
side about good and bad teamsand good and bad managers and
the interaction between that.
I think it's about a good timeat this point to just talk about
.
Is there such thing as a badteam?
(01:25):
Are all teams good?
I'm curious, what are you atwith that?
I've been in some managementbooks and there's statements
that come out there that thereare no bad teams, they're just
bad managers.
I was wondering how you feelabout good and bad like that.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Good question.
I heard.
Yes, of course we heard aboutthere's no bad teams, only bad
leaders or bad managers.
I agree that is true.
I remember we talked about thismaybe, I think, about 10 or 8
episodes ago.
We thought of that point, wetalked about it and we'll bring
it up again.
We'll focus on it at some point.
Let me I'm buying myself sometime.
(02:07):
Let me think about this.
You know what it is, george.
I think there are.
Okay, let's open it up a littlebit.
Is it that there's good teamsand a bad environment that makes
them a bad team, or is it kindof?
This is what I'm thinking of.
I'm thinking of an example of ateam that I worked with before,
right, where we had a reallygood engineer, a really good
(02:34):
programmer, a really gooddeveloper, a really good project
manager, a really good ofeverything, one of everything.
They were together on one team.
I can't even really say thattheir manager, the lead, was bad
.
He was good, but for somereason, all of those best of the
best together, overall, theteam was underperforming.
(02:56):
So your question made me thinkabout this scenario.
I don't know what would make uslabel the team as bad.
Is it what they're assigned todo by their superiors, and it's
not the way it fit for them.
Is it the environment that theywere placed within?
Is it the manager?
(03:17):
What do you think?
What do you think would causeus to label a team as bad, or
what would create the situationto lead to that title?
Speaker 2 (03:31):
You know, it's kind of just like an interesting
question all together.
I mean, I guess I have aproblem saying bad teams,
because these teams are beingcreated by management, right.
So ultimately management putthose I guess like the scenario
(03:53):
you were talking about kind oflike the engineering dream team,
right.
So they try to assemble anengineering dream team and,
depending on what the dynamicsof the team are and the manager
and the environment, maybethey're trying to one up each
other, Maybe they're all used togetting their way and being
leaders and they don't know howto follow and gel and do this
(04:15):
sort of like handoff where theycan put it together.
I mean, there's a lot of thingsthat I've seen go wrong with
what would otherwise be thoughtas being a high performance team
end up picking each other apart, right.
I mean, it's usually more forsocial reasons, or business
social reasons or politicalsocial reasons than technical
(04:38):
reasons, because you would thinkthat the best of the best, if
they were given the rightdirection by a strong leader,
they'd be able to coalescearound.
A strong, maybe a strong Y or astrong leader would be able to
get them to maybe put at least alittle bit of their egos away
(05:02):
such that they can all fit inthe same room together but, yeah
, I think that there are rightand wrong teams for jobs,
depending on the skillset needed, the maturity of the team, the
criticality of the exercise, thereason why there's an exercise.
(05:23):
So I think there's right andwrong teams.
Like I wouldn't on an extremecase I wouldn't hire a bunch of
firemen to put on a ballet dancerecital or something because it
doesn't make sense, right,that's not their skill set, but
(05:44):
I would absolutely get them onboard to saving some life or
some of my unfortunate events,right no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
So do you think it's safe to say that some teams
because I agree with what yousaid, first of all and do you
think it's safe for us to say,then, that there are some teams
that are just doomed from thebeginning, before they even
start working on the project,based upon who put them together
and the reason they were puttogether If it was, like you
(06:19):
said, for political reasons, fordiplomatic reasons in the
company do you think that couldbe safe to say that, right even
before they even start working,that they're just doomed for
failure?
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Yeah, I think you know that's a good question.
I hate to go to the extreme ofdo doomed for failure, but I
would say it is very, verydifficult to overcome a team
that's been formed poorly.
(06:53):
I think it's really hard toovercome, right, you can culture
bad actors and put them alltogether and you know it's like
you're almost waiting for themto fight in the room and see who
exits somehow.
And it's a bizarre thing to seepeople fight like that and I
(07:16):
don't know why managerssometimes do that.
I just think it's very, verypoor leadership and I think it
stresses out teams unnecessarilyand it's not productive for
work.
So I really struggle whymanagers would purposely almost
set off an experiment to see ifpeople can work together.
It doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yeah, and you know, I think it was Willink and Babin
and their book Extreme Ownership.
I remember one of the sentencesthey wrote was managers have to
appreciate the weight of theirtitle, their authority, right.
And what I was thinking aboutwhen you were talking is some
(08:00):
mistake that may happen, or onesituation that may arise is that
an incompetent manager ordirector or VP puts a team
together right Now.
He chose the wrong people forthe wrong job, but now that that
team is together and they'resitting in a conference room,
they're scared to go backquestion that manager or VP
(08:23):
because they think they're goingto come across as ignorant we,
whatever it may be.
So they assume that this personis all knowing, all wise.
They must have put us togetherfor a reason and they start
working on whatever it is thatthey need to do.
And then there's this typicalcase of escalation of commitment
(08:45):
the more time they put in, themore money they put in their
schedule back out and little doyou know they just started this
avalanche of one misstep afterthe other, all because at the
beginning they just hear goingback to the person like are you
sure Steve should be with Joe,with Lucy, to work on this?
Should you maybe considerputting A instead of B?
(09:07):
Do you know what I mean?
So I think the manager shouldreally open up the door when he
puts the team together.
Explain exactly what he said,george.
The why.
What is the mission, why I putyou together and welcome some
feedback before things go toofar.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
So something you said in there, moe, that I thought
was pretty astute is that Ithink managers often fall into a
number of bias andmisperceptions.
They get into theself-confirmation bias, they get
into this sunk cost bias, theyget into all these bias and the
confirming themselves as beingright in the teams or where the
(09:48):
individual is being wrong, and Ithink that happens more often
than not, unfortunately.
But getting into the formationof the team, which is what
you're really asking.
I'll tell you a situation ofmine.
I work with a lot of very, verysmart townspeople and sometimes
(10:11):
smart towns and people.
They don't get along.
They don't work well together.
It happens if students arelistening.
It happens within the faculty.
You'll have very, very smarttowns and faculty members that
can't work together.
Happens on engineering teams.
Happens on medical boards,where people who are very, very
(10:34):
smart and very good at what theydo have different perspectives
and have strong beliefs towardstheir style and the way that
they do things.
I've run into situations whereI know I'm putting two people
together that are explosive, andit's happened on the team and
(10:55):
I've gone for it and I've donethat when I'm looking to have
breakthrough results.
And let me tell you, it'sdangerous and it's hard and I
know it stresses people out, butI'll tell you what I do.
I usually sit down and talk tothem individually and I explain
(11:16):
to them the project.
I explain to them why, beforeyou put it together, before you
put it together, I introducethem individually, I give them
the scenario, I tell them thewhy, I tell them why I'm their
helper, why I really believethey're the right person, and I
tell them the rest of the teammembers, including the person
(11:38):
that I know that there's aconflict.
And I ask them honestly if theybelieve they can put aside their
emotions, if they can put asidesome of these things.
And I try to find out what arethe circumstances and I try to
make roles and responsibilitiesthat are clearly delineated.
But I'll say, look, if thisperson makes their decision,
(11:59):
that's within their role.
I'm not asking you to agreewith it.
You can voice your dissent.
But once the decision's made,we make it as a team, we move on
.
So I'm not asking for them toyeah, yeah.
The whole reason to have them isbecause they're that good and
that smart and I want theirvoice on the team and I explain
(12:21):
to them how they're gonna berespected, but they also need to
respect everybody else on theteam.
So I've done that, with limitedgood results.
It's usually something thatrequires constant management and
often high touch talk to theseindividuals, make sure that they
don't, that they're just notbottling up emotions and they're
(12:44):
gonna explode later.
It's so.
I've done it and I've done itfor breakthrough results and
I've gotten breakthrough results, but it takes a lot of
management effort to keep a teamlike that together.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
I was just gonna say I think it takes a very
well-seasoned manager that alsounderstands his team.
Because, along the points ofwhat you just mentioned, you
said you wanted likebreakthrough results.
Right, that's the word you use,right, is that correct?
Yeah, so I'm thinking aboutother scenarios.
Right, what if you don't wantresults but you want some good
(13:18):
brainstorming over an idea andthe results come at another
meeting?
There's the right person whenyou're forming that team.
What if you just wanna go very,very carefully through data,
much, much detailed analysis ofdata?
There's a different kind ofmanager to run that team.
Right, you may not want aresult or a conclusion or a
(13:40):
decision.
So you bring up a good point inthat formation.
Who am I going to put in theteam and, more importantly, who
am I going to put in charge ofthat team?
Am I just looking to createsome kind of sense of stability,
put people at ease during somechanges that are happening?
So, change management kind ofmanager, am I looking to go
(14:00):
through data to do some analysisin the meeting?
So, based upon what it is thatwe're doing, we have to keep the
behavior aspect of those people, or their tendencies, their
personal tendencies, what typeof individual that is in mind
when we're forming and whenwe're executing in that team and
(14:23):
when we're managing it.
I think that's a key part ofyes, exactly like what you said,
george 100%.
What's the why, what's themission, what are those tangible
goals?
What are the goals based uponthat?
Who are we putting in thatmeeting and who's going to be in
charge?
That's to be careful thinking.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
So I've actually been had to lay out what I perceive
as acceptable and unacceptablebehaviors.
To be very honest, these arewith senior.
I've been calling people so,for instance, I said, break the
results.
And you pick him up with abunch of examples of things that
(15:04):
I would want break throughresults Like, for instance, like
one of the first things youmentioned was brainstorming.
Yeah, I want to bring some ofthe best, the best of the table
for brainstorming.
That's a perfect project tobring people together that I
know are big thinkers.
Right, and at the time whereyou bring a bunch of senior big
thinkers and maybe a few of themhave a chip on their shoulder
(15:26):
or can't be wrong mentality andI'll talk to them, I said,
listen, people are going to comeup with ideas.
We're going to write down yourideas, just like everybody
else's, and we'll decide on themerit.
And it's not because someone'sgoing to say it louder, because
shouting over people or yelling,that's not acceptable here.
(15:47):
That's just, and if it gets tothat, we're just going to.
If I understand, you get excitedsometimes.
Look at me and I'll put my hand, like this and me and think
relax a little bit and we're alllistening to you and if you can
handle it, you're invited togive yourself a timeout.
If you feel like you can'thandle the meeting, it's okay.
(16:09):
If you need to walk out, Givethem that permission.
Hey, it's okay if you removeyourself If you're getting too
emotional.
I want people that are boughtin.
I want people that think theproject's important but at some
point when they can't containthemselves, it can be an issue.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Yes, yeah, and there has to be that, yeah, like that
room to vent or to manage thatsituation, if it does exist, or
it will come up.
So you have to plan for it,like have a contingency for it,
so kind of like the point, andyou add onto it or correct me,
change it, george.
One of the points we've made sofar is that it's the concept of
(17:01):
a good or bad team is muchbigger than just the goal, the
objective and making sure thatthey do what they need to do.
There's a bigger picture andthere's some steps that need to
take place before you even tellthat team go right, get it done.
There's careful thinking andthere's a methodology and there
should be a process tounderstand how and who to put
(17:27):
into that team and make surethat there's direction given and
kind of like what you saidearlier Prepping to put that
team together.
You have to sometimes meet withsome individual separately
before they're thrown into thethrust of things and putting
them into the team.
You have to meet with them tomentally prep them to what's
(17:47):
coming, make sure they are ready, make sure that they are the
right person for that job.
I don't want to call itinterviewing, but you know,
there's some kind of prepping upto the point where that team is
together.
It's not just pay, sending outan email.
You, you, you are going to beworking together.
Here's the objective get itdone by December 1st.
No, there's more prepping tothat process.
(18:11):
There's more science that goesinto it, into putting the team
together, making sure theysucceed.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean to me.
That's why I keep on comingaround to the fact that there's
really no bad team If you are amanager, set that team up, put
it together.
If that team doesn't perform,doesn't do or act the way it
(18:39):
should, ultimately you'reresponsible for that team.
You're responsible for asking ateam member to remove
themselves.
You're responsible for bringingon the team members and making
sure they can work together.
You, as the manager, you knowit should be your first.
You're responsible, right?
So I think managers need totake a huge section of
(19:02):
responsibility for all aspectsof the team and not just blame
the team for underperforming ornot performing.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
You know the mission at hand, yes, and you know what
I just thought of two, george, Ithink one.
One other point that themanager should keep in mind is
that there will not be I don'tthink there will be one
motivator for all the teamstogether in unison.
(19:32):
Your members of the team willtake different types of
motivation strategies.
Somebody will be motivated andthat team by a challenge.
Someone else will be motivatedby a pattern.
Someone else will be motivatedby getting a sense of security
that listen, I'm right behindyou if you need anything right.
There will be differenttriggers to motivate those team
(19:55):
members that could vary from oneperson to the other.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
You know, I agree with you.
You know everybody's anindividual and I would say not
just in terms of motivation, buteven their skill set and how
they might perform on the team.
So, for instance, I'll give youan example.
Let's say it's a brainstormingsession.
There might be some individualsthat are chomping at the bit to
(20:25):
get their ideas out and theycan't say them.
They're fast enough or loudenough.
There might be other members ofthe team that sit back and
listen and need to be prompted.
You know it could be okay, joe.
Joe, it's just up there sayingthe answer, saying the answer,
saying the ideas and the answers, and I might have to go over to
(20:45):
Sally.
Hey, sally, joe, hold on asecond.
Sally did.
Did you have to be in thecountry where you might actually
have to prop them?
And that's okay.
That's a difference in styleand that's how you need to know
your team as a manager, not justas a team collectively, but
also as individuals and getpeople the space and the room
(21:05):
that they need in order toperform, while also helping
other people that are maybe highperformers and are really out
there.
Allow them to give room toother team members to
participate in.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Good, good point.
And to add on to that, I thinkalso in the situation where
you're in need of individualsfrom other departments or other
business lines that need to comeinto work as part of your team,
just on the way you said, ifthat, if you don't know them,
(21:42):
then it's worth it to take thetime to speak to your, to their
managers, to get to know moreabout them, right?
So that's kind of likeknowledge exchange, knowledge
transfer, to know about thoseindividuals taking the time to
do that, so you can applyexactly what you said to those
individuals that you don't know,very well.
(22:05):
Now what do you think from theoutside environment, besides the
manager, could influence orimpact the success or the
failure of that team?
So, besides the team members,besides the goal, besides the
(22:28):
objectives, besides the managerWe've done everything that we
just talked about, all the duediligence this team is together.
What could happen from theoutside, or what could be
happening from the outside, thatcould impact their performance?
Speaker 2 (22:48):
So that depends on what you mean by environment.
But let me just, I know, andI'm leaving it, let me just tell
you.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Sorry, george, look, I'm being very vague with the
question because, honestly, I'mthinking about the answer as I
ask it to you as well.
I'm leaving it open, exactlylike you said, think of it any
way that you want by environment.
Take it any way that you want.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
So let me just bring it to the business, the business
social environment, rightThings that are happening within
this corporation ororganization, and so let me just
constrain it to thatenvironment.
There's a lot of things thatcould upset a team compensation
issues, the building itself, nothaving proper air conditioning
(23:33):
right there's a lot of thingsthat can really hurt a team.
Just from a workplace Do Ienjoy my environment?
Do I have a squeaky chair?
But let's just talk about theleadership environment, of
what's going on.
So I'll tell you that I've been.
(23:54):
I've had a team where I'mleading and messages from senior
leadership don't help.
I'll give you one like anexample.
I'm working on a team and I'mtelling my team that what
they're doing is very importantto the customer and very
(24:14):
important for the company, veryimportant for lots of reasons.
I've given them all the why.
And then my senior leadershipholds a town hall and announces
another project as the mostimportant project in the company
and it's all hands on deck, andso I've literally had senior
(24:35):
management completely underminethe team leadership.
So things like that can happenand that definitely disrupts
teams.
I've had leadership and teamspromote awesome mentality, or
what I'll say like toxicmentality, and it ends up
(25:00):
pervading on the organization.
So I do really, really thinkthat you, as a leader of your
team, you need to be ready forpoor managers and poor
leadership above you thatsometimes undoes your good work.
(25:20):
That's unfortunate, but it doeshappen.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Which also probably fits in.
It'll be safe to say thatsometimes, as the manager, you
have to or the team lead, youhave to manage some aspects of
the company's culture that canhinder the performance of your
team, because some of the thingsthat you talk about the toxic
environment you know that usagainst them and you know some
(25:48):
of those things that could beembedded, intertwined in the
company's culture, right, mightbe a force that the manager
would have to manage with histeam to ensure that it doesn't
impact their performance.
So, kind of, using one of thethings that you mentioned as an
example, us them mentality, dothis.
(26:09):
Instead of that, this is thepriority, you're not important,
right.
You would have to manage thosemessages that the team is
getting to give them somestability, some security, you
know, some motivation to keepgoing right.
So it's kind of like a bubblewithin the bubble.
You know like this is.
You know we're together indisguise, don't worry about
(26:30):
what's going on the outside, I'mhere for you, kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Yeah, and I've actively been aware of that.
In extreme situations where Ifeel like I'm being undermined
too much by senior leadership, Ihave had to muster the courage
to go, challenge them right andsay to them.
(27:01):
hey, frank, you said that that'sthe number one mentality of
priority and that's what you'resaying.
Hey, I got a team of fiveindividuals that aren't working
on that.
I'll just send my team and havethem all work on your project
and they'll say oh no, no,that's not what we meant I said.
Do you mind setting a note tome just complimenting my team or
(27:26):
clarifying?
that the work that they're doingis important too, because they
feel like what they're doing isimportant and, quite frankly,
I'm questioning why I'm not onthe number one priority over
there helping you out, becausethat's you know, you made it
sound like that's all thatshould happen, right?
So sometimes calling on amanager.
(27:47):
It actually becomes a healthything and allows them to clarify
what they mean.
Sometimes they don't evenunderstand.
What they said could becompletely misinterpreted by the
folks on the ground.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Yeah, and it goes back to that thing where there
is no way those team memberswould ever dare or try to reach
out to Frank in your example,right, there's no way.
They would just have to deal bythe bullet and deal with it.
So, yeah, it's your job I don'twant to say middleman, but as
(28:23):
that person responsible to takethat step and do that.
You have to own up to it and doit, because other than that, no
one else in the team is goingto do it.
So it is that manager's job togo and take that step and have
that discussion.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Yeah, and so I'll say it this way Mo, I think as a
manager, you need to both managethe internals of your team, but
you also need to manage theexternals of your team, and if
that means clarifying messagesthat are coming from senior
leadership.
Another thing that I've done is, when I find out that maybe
(29:00):
functional departments areasking my team members to do a
lot of extra work or extrareports, I've actually
volunteered to help them to tryto get the burden off.
If I know a team member isbeing extra burden, I'll say,
hey, I know that's not my job,but we're a team.
Can I help you do some of thosereports?
I'll let you read them.
(29:20):
You know everything.
But hey, can I help you Becausewe're a team, right, yeah?
So I think managing inside andoutside, individually and as a
team, culturally, is important.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Well said, my friend Well said.
So I mean, I hope, some of thepoints that we shared here.
They may not all be applicablein every scenario, but it just
opens the listener's mind tosome of the areas that they
should think about when they'reputting the team together.
There's outside dynamics, likeGeorge talked about, things on
(30:04):
the outside that you need tomanage just as much and as well
as things on the inside.
George, anything else you wantto add, I'll give it back to you
.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
to wrap up, buddy, Well, this is great, Great
conversation so I have.
Sometimes in this discourse I'msurprised at some of the
comments and some of the placesthat we go in this conversation.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
So very enjoyable.
Great, great great.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
I have to hear that so anyway, thank you all for
listening to this episode ofBack to Basics on the Business
Edge, brought to you byFeliciano School of Business at
Malkler State University.
We hope you enjoyed thispodcast and welcome any feedback
you have for us, includingsuggestions for future topics.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Thank you, mr George, thank you everyone for
listening and see you next timeon the Back to Basics podcast.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Goodbye everybody, bye, goodbye, see you next time.
Bye.
Hello everybody, welcome back to our podcast.
Back to Basics.
I am Moe Hussaini and I'm herewith my good friend, george
Elias.
How are you doing, george?
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Doing great.
Moe.
It's a busy beginning to thesemester, but it's nice to do
these podcasts with you.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
How's the weather going Baye?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Well, today was supposed to be a reasonably good
day, but it's been on and off,thunderstorms and pouring Again.
It's a nice activity to doinside as you're recording
podcasts.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Yes, the feeling is mutual.
I actually love the summer, thefall and the changes in seasons
.
I'm looking forward toHalloween and Turkey Day.
But tell me, what do you havein mind?
What do you want to talk abouttoday?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Moe, we've been talking back and forth on the
side about good and bad teamsand good and bad managers and
the interaction between that.
I think it's about a good timeat this point to just talk about
.
Is there such thing as a badteam?
(01:25):
Are all teams good?
I'm curious, what are you atwith that?
I've been in some managementbooks and there's statements
that come out there that thereare no bad teams, they're just
bad managers.
I was wondering how you feelabout good and bad like that.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Good question.
I heard.
Yes, of course we heard aboutthere's no bad teams, only bad
leaders or bad managers.
I agree that is true.
I remember we talked about thismaybe, I think, about 10 or 8
episodes ago.
We thought of that point, wetalked about it and we'll bring
it up again.
We'll focus on it at some point.
Let me I'm buying myself sometime.
(02:07):
Let me think about this.
You know what it is, george.
I think there are.
Okay, let's open it up a littlebit.
Is it that there's good teamsand a bad environment that makes
them a bad team, or is it kindof?
This is what I'm thinking of.
I'm thinking of an example of ateam that I worked with before,
right, where we had a reallygood engineer, a really good
(02:34):
programmer, a really gooddeveloper, a really good project
manager, a really good ofeverything, one of everything.
They were together on one team.
I can't even really say thattheir manager, the lead, was bad
.
He was good, but for somereason, all of those best of the
best together, overall, theteam was underperforming.
(02:56):
So your question made me thinkabout this scenario.
I don't know what would make uslabel the team as bad.
Is it what they're assigned todo by their superiors, and it's
not the way it fit for them.
Is it the environment that theywere placed within?
Is it the manager?
(03:17):
What do you think?
What do you think would causeus to label a team as bad, or
what would create the situationto lead to that title?
Speaker 2 (03:31):
You know, it's kind of just like an interesting
question all together.
I mean, I guess I have aproblem saying bad teams,
because these teams are beingcreated by management, right.
So ultimately management putthose I guess like the scenario
(03:53):
you were talking about kind oflike the engineering dream team,
right.
So they try to assemble anengineering dream team and,
depending on what the dynamicsof the team are and the manager
and the environment, maybethey're trying to one up each
other, Maybe they're all used togetting their way and being
leaders and they don't know howto follow and gel and do this
(04:15):
sort of like handoff where theycan put it together.
I mean, there's a lot of thingsthat I've seen go wrong with
what would otherwise be thoughtas being a high performance team
end up picking each other apart, right.
I mean, it's usually more forsocial reasons, or business
social reasons or politicalsocial reasons than technical
(04:38):
reasons, because you would thinkthat the best of the best, if
they were given the rightdirection by a strong leader,
they'd be able to coalescearound.
A strong, maybe a strong Y or astrong leader would be able to
get them to maybe put at least alittle bit of their egos away
(05:02):
such that they can all fit inthe same room together but, yeah
, I think that there are rightand wrong teams for jobs,
depending on the skillset needed, the maturity of the team, the
criticality of the exercise, thereason why there's an exercise.
(05:23):
So I think there's right andwrong teams.
Like I wouldn't on an extremecase I wouldn't hire a bunch of
firemen to put on a ballet dancerecital or something because it
doesn't make sense, right,that's not their skill set, but
(05:44):
I would absolutely get them onboard to saving some life or
some of my unfortunate events,right no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
So do you think it's safe to say that some teams
because I agree with what yousaid, first of all and do you
think it's safe for us to say,then, that there are some teams
that are just doomed from thebeginning, before they even
start working on the project,based upon who put them together
and the reason they were puttogether If it was, like you
(06:19):
said, for political reasons, fordiplomatic reasons in the
company do you think that couldbe safe to say that, right even
before they even start working,that they're just doomed for
failure?
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Yeah, I think you know that's a good question.
I hate to go to the extreme ofdo doomed for failure, but I
would say it is very, verydifficult to overcome a team
that's been formed poorly.
(06:53):
I think it's really hard toovercome, right, you can culture
bad actors and put them alltogether and you know it's like
you're almost waiting for themto fight in the room and see who
exits somehow.
And it's a bizarre thing to seepeople fight like that and I
(07:16):
don't know why managerssometimes do that.
I just think it's very, verypoor leadership and I think it
stresses out teams unnecessarilyand it's not productive for
work.
So I really struggle whymanagers would purposely almost
set off an experiment to see ifpeople can work together.
It doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yeah, and you know, I think it was Willink and Babin
and their book Extreme Ownership.
I remember one of the sentencesthey wrote was managers have to
appreciate the weight of theirtitle, their authority, right.
And what I was thinking aboutwhen you were talking is some
(08:00):
mistake that may happen, or onesituation that may arise is that
an incompetent manager ordirector or VP puts a team
together right Now.
He chose the wrong people forthe wrong job, but now that that
team is together and they'resitting in a conference room,
they're scared to go backquestion that manager or VP
(08:23):
because they think they're goingto come across as ignorant we,
whatever it may be.
So they assume that this personis all knowing, all wise.
They must have put us togetherfor a reason and they start
working on whatever it is thatthey need to do.
And then there's this typicalcase of escalation of commitment
(08:45):
the more time they put in, themore money they put in their
schedule back out and little doyou know they just started this
avalanche of one misstep afterthe other, all because at the
beginning they just hear goingback to the person like are you
sure Steve should be with Joe,with Lucy, to work on this?
Should you maybe considerputting A instead of B?
(09:07):
Do you know what I mean?
So I think the manager shouldreally open up the door when he
puts the team together.
Explain exactly what he said,george.
The why.
What is the mission, why I putyou together and welcome some
feedback before things go toofar.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
So something you said in there, moe, that I thought
was pretty astute is that Ithink managers often fall into a
number of bias andmisperceptions.
They get into theself-confirmation bias, they get
into this sunk cost bias, theyget into all these bias and the
confirming themselves as beingright in the teams or where the
(09:48):
individual is being wrong, and Ithink that happens more often
than not, unfortunately.
But getting into the formationof the team, which is what
you're really asking.
I'll tell you a situation ofmine.
I work with a lot of very, verysmart townspeople and sometimes
(10:11):
smart towns and people.
They don't get along.
They don't work well together.
It happens if students arelistening.
It happens within the faculty.
You'll have very, very smarttowns and faculty members that
can't work together.
Happens on engineering teams.
Happens on medical boards,where people who are very, very
(10:34):
smart and very good at what theydo have different perspectives
and have strong beliefs towardstheir style and the way that
they do things.
I've run into situations whereI know I'm putting two people
together that are explosive, andit's happened on the team and
(10:55):
I've gone for it and I've donethat when I'm looking to have
breakthrough results.
And let me tell you, it'sdangerous and it's hard and I
know it stresses people out, butI'll tell you what I do.
I usually sit down and talk tothem individually and I explain
(11:16):
to them the project.
I explain to them why, beforeyou put it together, before you
put it together, I introducethem individually, I give them
the scenario, I tell them thewhy, I tell them why I'm their
helper, why I really believethey're the right person, and I
tell them the rest of the teammembers, including the person
(11:38):
that I know that there's aconflict.
And I ask them honestly if theybelieve they can put aside their
emotions, if they can put asidesome of these things.
And I try to find out what arethe circumstances and I try to
make roles and responsibilitiesthat are clearly delineated.
But I'll say, look, if thisperson makes their decision,
(11:59):
that's within their role.
I'm not asking you to agreewith it.
You can voice your dissent.
But once the decision's made,we make it as a team, we move on
.
So I'm not asking for them toyeah, yeah.
The whole reason to have them isbecause they're that good and
that smart and I want theirvoice on the team and I explain
(12:21):
to them how they're gonna berespected, but they also need to
respect everybody else on theteam.
So I've done that, with limitedgood results.
It's usually something thatrequires constant management and
often high touch talk to theseindividuals, make sure that they
don't, that they're just notbottling up emotions and they're
(12:44):
gonna explode later.
It's so.
I've done it and I've done itfor breakthrough results and
I've gotten breakthrough results, but it takes a lot of
management effort to keep a teamlike that together.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
I was just gonna say I think it takes a very
well-seasoned manager that alsounderstands his team.
Because, along the points ofwhat you just mentioned, you
said you wanted likebreakthrough results.
Right, that's the word you use,right, is that correct?
Yeah, so I'm thinking aboutother scenarios.
Right, what if you don't wantresults but you want some good
(13:18):
brainstorming over an idea andthe results come at another
meeting?
There's the right person whenyou're forming that team.
What if you just wanna go very,very carefully through data,
much, much detailed analysis ofdata?
There's a different kind ofmanager to run that team.
Right, you may not want aresult or a conclusion or a
(13:40):
decision.
So you bring up a good point inthat formation.
Who am I going to put in theteam and, more importantly, who
am I going to put in charge ofthat team?
Am I just looking to createsome kind of sense of stability,
put people at ease during somechanges that are happening?
So, change management kind ofmanager, am I looking to go
(14:00):
through data to do some analysisin the meeting?
So, based upon what it is thatwe're doing, we have to keep the
behavior aspect of those people, or their tendencies, their
personal tendencies, what typeof individual that is in mind
when we're forming and whenwe're executing in that team and
(14:23):
when we're managing it.
I think that's a key part ofyes, exactly like what you said,
george 100%.
What's the why, what's themission, what are those tangible
goals?
What are the goals based uponthat?
Who are we putting in thatmeeting and who's going to be in
charge?
That's to be careful thinking.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
So I've actually been had to lay out what I perceive
as acceptable and unacceptablebehaviors.
To be very honest, these arewith senior.
I've been calling people so,for instance, I said, break the
results.
And you pick him up with abunch of examples of things that
(15:04):
I would want break throughresults Like, for instance, like
one of the first things youmentioned was brainstorming.
Yeah, I want to bring some ofthe best, the best of the table
for brainstorming.
That's a perfect project tobring people together that I
know are big thinkers.
Right, and at the time whereyou bring a bunch of senior big
thinkers and maybe a few of themhave a chip on their shoulder
(15:26):
or can't be wrong mentality andI'll talk to them, I said,
listen, people are going to comeup with ideas.
We're going to write down yourideas, just like everybody
else's, and we'll decide on themerit.
And it's not because someone'sgoing to say it louder, because
shouting over people or yelling,that's not acceptable here.
(15:47):
That's just, and if it gets tothat, we're just going to.
If I understand, you get excitedsometimes.
Look at me and I'll put my hand, like this and me and think
relax a little bit and we're alllistening to you and if you can
handle it, you're invited togive yourself a timeout.
If you feel like you can'thandle the meeting, it's okay.
(16:09):
If you need to walk out, Givethem that permission.
Hey, it's okay if you removeyourself If you're getting too
emotional.
I want people that are boughtin.
I want people that think theproject's important but at some
point when they can't containthemselves, it can be an issue.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Yes, yeah, and there has to be that, yeah, like that
room to vent or to manage thatsituation, if it does exist, or
it will come up.
So you have to plan for it,like have a contingency for it,
so kind of like the point, andyou add onto it or correct me,
change it, george.
One of the points we've made sofar is that it's the concept of
(17:01):
a good or bad team is muchbigger than just the goal, the
objective and making sure thatthey do what they need to do.
There's a bigger picture andthere's some steps that need to
take place before you even tellthat team go right, get it done.
There's careful thinking andthere's a methodology and there
should be a process tounderstand how and who to put
(17:27):
into that team and make surethat there's direction given and
kind of like what you saidearlier Prepping to put that
team together.
You have to sometimes meet withsome individual separately
before they're thrown into thethrust of things and putting
them into the team.
You have to meet with them tomentally prep them to what's
(17:47):
coming, make sure they are ready, make sure that they are the
right person for that job.
I don't want to call itinterviewing, but you know,
there's some kind of prepping upto the point where that team is
together.
It's not just pay, sending outan email.
You, you, you are going to beworking together.
Here's the objective get itdone by December 1st.
No, there's more prepping tothat process.
(18:11):
There's more science that goesinto it, into putting the team
together, making sure theysucceed.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean to me.
That's why I keep on comingaround to the fact that there's
really no bad team If you are amanager, set that team up, put
it together.
If that team doesn't perform,doesn't do or act the way it
(18:39):
should, ultimately you'reresponsible for that team.
You're responsible for asking ateam member to remove
themselves.
You're responsible for bringingon the team members and making
sure they can work together.
You, as the manager, you knowit should be your first.
You're responsible, right?
So I think managers need totake a huge section of
(19:02):
responsibility for all aspectsof the team and not just blame
the team for underperforming ornot performing.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
You know the mission at hand, yes, and you know what
I just thought of two, george, Ithink one.
One other point that themanager should keep in mind is
that there will not be I don'tthink there will be one
motivator for all the teamstogether in unison.
(19:32):
Your members of the team willtake different types of
motivation strategies.
Somebody will be motivated andthat team by a challenge.
Someone else will be motivatedby a pattern.
Someone else will be motivatedby getting a sense of security
that listen, I'm right behindyou if you need anything right.
There will be differenttriggers to motivate those team
(19:55):
members that could vary from oneperson to the other.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
You know, I agree with you.
You know everybody's anindividual and I would say not
just in terms of motivation, buteven their skill set and how
they might perform on the team.
So, for instance, I'll give youan example.
Let's say it's a brainstormingsession.
There might be some individualsthat are chomping at the bit to
(20:25):
get their ideas out and theycan't say them.
They're fast enough or loudenough.
There might be other members ofthe team that sit back and
listen and need to be prompted.
You know it could be okay, joe.
Joe, it's just up there sayingthe answer, saying the answer,
saying the ideas and the answers, and I might have to go over to
(20:45):
Sally.
Hey, sally, joe, hold on asecond.
Sally did.
Did you have to be in thecountry where you might actually
have to prop them?
And that's okay.
That's a difference in styleand that's how you need to know
your team as a manager, not justas a team collectively, but
also as individuals and getpeople the space and the room
(21:05):
that they need in order toperform, while also helping
other people that are maybe highperformers and are really out
there.
Allow them to give room toother team members to
participate in.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Good, good point.
And to add on to that, I thinkalso in the situation where
you're in need of individualsfrom other departments or other
business lines that need to comeinto work as part of your team,
just on the way you said, ifthat, if you don't know them,
(21:42):
then it's worth it to take thetime to speak to your, to their
managers, to get to know moreabout them, right?
So that's kind of likeknowledge exchange, knowledge
transfer, to know about thoseindividuals taking the time to
do that, so you can applyexactly what you said to those
individuals that you don't know,very well.
(22:05):
Now what do you think from theoutside environment, besides the
manager, could influence orimpact the success or the
failure of that team?
So, besides the team members,besides the goal, besides the
(22:28):
objectives, besides the managerWe've done everything that we
just talked about, all the duediligence this team is together.
What could happen from theoutside, or what could be
happening from the outside, thatcould impact their performance?
Speaker 2 (22:48):
So that depends on what you mean by environment.
But let me just, I know, andI'm leaving it, let me just tell
you.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Sorry, george, look, I'm being very vague with the
question because, honestly, I'mthinking about the answer as I
ask it to you as well.
I'm leaving it open, exactlylike you said, think of it any
way that you want by environment.
Take it any way that you want.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
So let me just bring it to the business, the business
social environment, rightThings that are happening within
this corporation ororganization, and so let me just
constrain it to thatenvironment.
There's a lot of things thatcould upset a team compensation
issues, the building itself, nothaving proper air conditioning
(23:33):
right there's a lot of thingsthat can really hurt a team.
Just from a workplace Do Ienjoy my environment?
Do I have a squeaky chair?
But let's just talk about theleadership environment, of
what's going on.
So I'll tell you that I've been.
(23:54):
I've had a team where I'mleading and messages from senior
leadership don't help.
I'll give you one like anexample.
I'm working on a team and I'mtelling my team that what
they're doing is very importantto the customer and very
(24:14):
important for the company, veryimportant for lots of reasons.
I've given them all the why.
And then my senior leadershipholds a town hall and announces
another project as the mostimportant project in the company
and it's all hands on deck, andso I've literally had senior
(24:35):
management completely underminethe team leadership.
So things like that can happenand that definitely disrupts
teams.
I've had leadership and teamspromote awesome mentality, or
what I'll say like toxicmentality, and it ends up
(25:00):
pervading on the organization.
So I do really, really thinkthat you, as a leader of your
team, you need to be ready forpoor managers and poor
leadership above you thatsometimes undoes your good work.
(25:20):
That's unfortunate, but it doeshappen.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Which also probably fits in.
It'll be safe to say thatsometimes, as the manager, you
have to or the team lead, youhave to manage some aspects of
the company's culture that canhinder the performance of your
team, because some of the thingsthat you talk about the toxic
environment you know that usagainst them and you know some
(25:48):
of those things that could beembedded, intertwined in the
company's culture, right, mightbe a force that the manager
would have to manage with histeam to ensure that it doesn't
impact their performance.
So, kind of, using one of thethings that you mentioned as an
example, us them mentality, dothis.
(26:09):
Instead of that, this is thepriority, you're not important,
right.
You would have to manage thosemessages that the team is
getting to give them somestability, some security, you
know, some motivation to keepgoing right.
So it's kind of like a bubblewithin the bubble.
You know like this is.
You know we're together indisguise, don't worry about
(26:30):
what's going on the outside, I'mhere for you, kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Yeah, and I've actively been aware of that.
In extreme situations where Ifeel like I'm being undermined
too much by senior leadership, Ihave had to muster the courage
to go, challenge them right andsay to them.
(27:01):
hey, frank, you said that that'sthe number one mentality of
priority and that's what you'resaying.
Hey, I got a team of fiveindividuals that aren't working
on that.
I'll just send my team and havethem all work on your project
and they'll say oh no, no,that's not what we meant I said.
Do you mind setting a note tome just complimenting my team or
(27:26):
clarifying?
that the work that they're doingis important too, because they
feel like what they're doing isimportant and, quite frankly,
I'm questioning why I'm not onthe number one priority over
there helping you out, becausethat's you know, you made it
sound like that's all thatshould happen, right?
So sometimes calling on amanager.
(27:47):
It actually becomes a healthything and allows them to clarify
what they mean.
Sometimes they don't evenunderstand.
What they said could becompletely misinterpreted by the
folks on the ground.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Yeah, and it goes back to that thing where there
is no way those team memberswould ever dare or try to reach
out to Frank in your example,right, there's no way.
They would just have to deal bythe bullet and deal with it.
So, yeah, it's your job I don'twant to say middleman, but as
(28:23):
that person responsible to takethat step and do that.
You have to own up to it and doit, because other than that, no
one else in the team is goingto do it.
So it is that manager's job togo and take that step and have
that discussion.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Yeah, and so I'll say it this way Mo, I think as a
manager, you need to both managethe internals of your team, but
you also need to manage theexternals of your team, and if
that means clarifying messagesthat are coming from senior
leadership.
Another thing that I've done is, when I find out that maybe
(29:00):
functional departments areasking my team members to do a
lot of extra work or extrareports, I've actually
volunteered to help them to tryto get the burden off.
If I know a team member isbeing extra burden, I'll say,
hey, I know that's not my job,but we're a team.
Can I help you do some of thosereports?
I'll let you read them.
(29:20):
You know everything.
But hey, can I help you Becausewe're a team, right, yeah?
So I think managing inside andoutside, individually and as a
team, culturally, is important.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Well said, my friend Well said.
So I mean, I hope, some of thepoints that we shared here.
They may not all be applicablein every scenario, but it just
opens the listener's mind tosome of the areas that they
should think about when they'reputting the team together.
There's outside dynamics, likeGeorge talked about, things on
(30:04):
the outside that you need tomanage just as much and as well
as things on the inside.
George, anything else you wantto add, I'll give it back to you
.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
to wrap up, buddy, Well, this is great, Great
conversation so I have.
Sometimes in this discourse I'msurprised at some of the
comments and some of the placesthat we go in this conversation.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
So very enjoyable.
Great, great great.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
I have to hear that so anyway, thank you all for
listening to this episode ofBack to Basics on the Business
Edge, brought to you byFeliciano School of Business at
Malkler State University.
We hope you enjoyed thispodcast and welcome any feedback
you have for us, includingsuggestions for future topics.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Thank you, mr George, thank you everyone for
listening and see you next timeon the Back to Basics podcast.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Goodbye everybody, bye, goodbye, see you next time.
Bye.
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