November 1, 2023 • 30 mins
Feliciano School of Business faculty members in the department of Information Management and Business Analytics, Dr. Mahmoud ElHussini and Dr. George Elias discuss issues and problems being faced by business professionals. On this podcast, they discuss finding the right mentor. Dr. Moe and Dr. George breakdown issues and problems being encountered by entrepreneurs, executives, and all levels of managers.
Co-Hosts Background:
Mahmoud (Moe) Elhussini, MS, MBA, DBA, is an Instructor Specialist at Montclair State University. He is also the president and founder of The Growth Coach Allentown - Somerville. A consulting and business coaching company. Moe has worked in data & operations management for over a decade. He then switched to business consulting, helping companies build ERP and customer interface systems. After that he transitioned into international business development, helping companies manage their internal organic growth or through mergers and strategic alliances. Moe has published a couple of handbooks, one on emotional intelligence and another on servant leadership. He is currently working on a third that revolves around overcoming sales objections. Moe has a BA in Biology from Rutgers University, an MBA in Global Management, and MS in Information Management, and a DBA in Geopolitics and Strategy. At Montclair University, Moe is part of the Information Management and Business Analytics Department. He teaches Business Decision Making, Operations Management, and Statistics in Business courses.
George Elias, Ph.D., PMP is Chief Systems Engineer for Space and Airborne Systems leading initiatives in integrated spectrum management and mission avionics at L3Harris Technologies. Additionally, Dr. Elias is as an adjunct professor at Montclair State University’s department of information management & business analytics where he teaches business operations and statistics. Dr. Elias is experienced in leading the development and production of complex hardware and software system solutions including: electronic warfare systems, communication systems, and space systems. Previously, Dr. Elias served as the Director of Capture Excellence & Business Development Operations for the Electronic Warfare Sector. As an L3Harris Technologies Certified Enterprise Capture Lead, Dr. Elias was responsible for directing large, complex pursuits across the enterprise. In addition to systems engineering and business development, Dr. Elias has held roles in finance, quality assurance, operations/manufacturing, modeling and simulation, project engineering, program management, and Internal Research and Development (IRAD). Dr. Elias has a Doctorate in Systems Engineering, a Masters Certificate in Project Management, and a Masters in Computer Science from Stevens Institute of Technology. Additionally, Dr. Elias has a Bachelors in Computer Information Systems from Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey & New Jersey Institute of Technology. Finally, Dr. Elias has a Mini-MBA from Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello everybody, Welcome back to Back to Basics.
I am Mauro Hussini and I'm herewith Mr George.
Welcome back, George, to thepodcast.
How are you doing, buddy?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Say good stuff, mauro .
It's a rainy day out here onceagain, and we'll be here
podcasting Lots of fun.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Same here, man, same here.
How's work going?
You're doing good.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Works super busy, just the way I like it it's one
of those things.
That's true.
It makes the day go by, and Ilike getting things done, and
sitting down and just staring atwalls isn't fun for me, so I
like to get going All right,buddy.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Glad to hear that.
George, what do you say?
Last week, I think we weretalking about coaching versus
mentoring.
And I know you have a lot ofexperience mentoring people.
I don't know you had mentors inyour past, early on in your
career.
What do you say we talk about?
Let's focus on mentoring todayand finding the right mentor.
(01:14):
What do you do?
How do you find the rightmentor?
So what I'm going to do is I'mgoing to give it to you.
Actually, why don't you tell us, speak your mind.
What do you think are the do'sand don'ts, or what should we do
when we're trying to pick amentor?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
So, look, you know, let's just kind of skinny it
down a little bit.
More than that.
Let's try to define, you know,the scenario we're in, right?
So you know, I believe you canfind mentors in your life.
You know, outside business,right?
So I think that some of thethings we're going to talk about
(01:54):
today in an organization eventranslates into outside your
organization, right?
So, like, for instance, mo, Iconsider you even though we
don't call it mentoring, youknow I consider you to be one of
my mentors, right?
Oftentimes I call you up foradvice.
(02:14):
I, you know, try to give youthe scenario.
I ask you what should I doabout it?
And I respect your opinion, Irespect what you've done with
your life and I know that, eventhough we're also friends,
you're not afraid to tell me thetruth or call me out in a
(02:35):
situation.
It's a hey, george, you knowyou might be right about this,
but look at what you did.
And I appreciate that.
And I want to first start outwith that sort of relationship.
You know, usually when you pickout mentors, you want somebody
(02:57):
that maybe not exactly the sameworldview as you but maybe has a
similar worldview to you.
So, you know, in business, youknow, if you're somebody that is
not super aggressive, let's say, and you know you want to, just
(03:17):
, you know, be happy in your joband grow just within your job,
you know you don't want to pairup with a mentor who is maybe
super aggressive or superaggressive and flashy, right,
and I'm not saying it's nothelpful to pick somebody that
(03:38):
has a skill or something thatyou don't have, but you want
somebody that pairs with youwell, that you know, when you're
talking about your wanton life,you know is going to understand
at least where you're comingfrom.
So I say that you know, like amentor that has that same kind
(04:01):
of value and definition ofsuccess, right?
So I'll give you an exampleSome people in business, they're
interested in climbing a ladderand making a lot of money very
fast.
If that appeals to you, right,and that's the way you want to
move up, then you know, thenthat's the type of mentor you
want somebody who's a fast mover.
(04:22):
Or maybe there's other mentorsthat are just really good at
some skill or some job, butthey're not super aggressive,
but they want to show value,they want to do things, and it's
not necessarily a right orwrong, but you need to have some
sort of commonplace of values.
What do you think about thatMal?
Speaker 1 (04:43):
No, I.
Usually this is a fully loadedanswer in a good way and, excuse
me, I want to start off.
I mean, I'm flattered.
I always tell you that I'mflattered and honored that you
consider me a mentor and youknow the feeling is mutual and
from what you were talking about, I was going to ask you a
question, but I actuallyanswered it for myself and I'll
(05:05):
give you, I'll tell you what itis.
I was thinking I was going toask you, george, based upon what
you're saying, as far asinterest and so on, do you pick
a mentor that shares your sametype of personality or not?
And regardless of what youranswer was going to be, I
actually think that the answeris no, not necessarily, because
(05:26):
when I think about I don't knowif you remember, george, a
couple of it was more than adecade ago when I had a
consulting gig and you arehelping me, but I know with
helping me find people topartner with with the RP and I
know you couldn't, because ofyour work obligations, be a part
of it with me, but you helpedme, put me and I came back to
you with a lot of questions asfar as who I should reach out to
(05:51):
, what I should do, what my planshould be.
And from your answers to me, Irealized that sometimes I don't
want to say impulsive, but I'mquick in my decisions and you're
more calculating and morecautious and more slow.
So I realized that thatdiffering aspect in our
personalities is actually a goodthing, that when I come to you
(06:14):
for mentorship or for advice,the fact that you don't share my
type of decision making speedor process is actually something
I look for, like when I'm goingto make a decision, to do
something, I pick up the phoneto call you, knowing that your
personality is more cautious,more slow in making decisions
(06:35):
than I am.
So, regardless of the actualtopic that we're talking about
your background, yourpersonality compliments, fits in
well with what I'm looking todo.
Does that make sense?
You know what I mean.
So I think my takeaway is thatwhen you're looking for a mentor
(06:55):
or somebody that you're seekingadvice or help from, don't
always try to find somebodythat's exactly like you
personality wise.
It's good to find somebodythat's you know.
If we're talking about the disk, somebody that's maybe more of
a C.
If you're more of an I,somebody that's more compliant,
more calculating.
If you are, somebody that'smore outgoing and more quick in
(07:18):
your decision making.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
I completely agree with that and I think you know
what happens is you end up beinga stronger team for that reason
, right.
But what I saw, I think what wehave, is an interesting combo
where, you know, you and I havea very similar worldview in
terms of, like, our values,right, and how we do hierarchy,
(07:50):
but how our brains naturallyoperate or are a bit different,
and what I think happens is wehave very interesting
conversations because you knowintuitively, you move forward
faster than I do.
So I, you know I don't Iquestion things that you might
(08:14):
not question invites first.
So it makes for a betterconversation and an honest
conversation where we'recomfortable enough with each
other, where we're not offendedby somebody saying I don't agree
with you, that you know that's.
I don't need to be selfvalidated in that, neither do
you, because we know that it'sdone in a caring way, right, and
(08:39):
I think that that's another bigaspect for a mentor.
You need to have a mentor thatis one willing to speak truth to
you and understand that'sallowed and at the same time,
it's trustworthy.
You're not going to be able tohave a mentor and share aspects
(09:03):
of maybe, your emotions, yourfeelings, your needs, your wants
, if you just cannot trust them.
So, of course, in a businesssetting you know you get to
understand that there are somelimits on where you want to draw
that line with trust.
(09:24):
But what I'm saying is if youcan't have mutual trust and
respect with your mentor, thatis a big problem and it's not
going to be a good, healthymentoring relationship.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
And to point out something else that you said a
few minutes ago, just because Iwant to point out.
I want to say it again becauseI think it's important.
You cannot go into this mentalrelationship if you are going to
be intimidated by the critiqueor negative like if they're
going to give you any negativefeedback or give you any advice.
(10:03):
You cannot be intimidated orupset by it.
You have to accept it.
You have to be flexible,open-minded to the feedback that
you're going to get.
So there, just like I said,there is that sense of trust
that this person is looking atfor me.
They are looking to help me.
Having a mentor is not a partof oh, I have a mentor, that I'm
(10:24):
going to be fine.
No, it's actually listening towhat that mentor tells you,
accepting the feedback that theygive you.
Just like, again, our examplewhen I was going into the
consulting and he would come andtell me no more, you can't do
this yet.
Wait on this meeting.
Go over this for it, especiallythe technical aspects.
Yes, you have to.
If this is what you're lookingfor from a mentor, then take it.
(10:47):
It can't be a partial, half andhalf thing, right?
If you are looking for thatadvice.
Take the advice and listen toit.
Now can we move to somethingelse, george, or do you have
anything else to say about this?
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Oh, of course please.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Okay, so I have a project I'm working on.
I have something specific thatI'm working on and I get a
mentor to help me with it.
What are the qualifications,the quality, like you know?
(11:27):
What are the criteria?
What is it that I look for?
What are some of the thingsmore now we're talking about,
instead of like more holisticbut now more specific?
Right, so I'm working on aproject that is specific and I
need to help with it.
I want a mentor to help me, toguide me through it.
What are the checks that I gothrough, the selective criteria
(11:54):
to pick that mentor?
What do you think I should lookfor?
Speaker 2 (11:57):
So let me just I'll get to answering that, but let
me set things up a little bitmore right.
So I believe when you're in anorganization, especially larger
corporate organizations, youshould see yourself going at
work every day, with everyinteraction you have, as being
(12:21):
some sort of interview.
You need to understand how topresent yourself and talk about
yourself in a certain way thatyou're consistent, because that
becomes a dominant.
Even if you go and say post fora job or interview for a job,
you can't change yourpersonality all of a sudden.
(12:43):
You know people will know whoyou are internally.
In the same context, you shouldbe constantly interviewing and
thinking about people in yourorganization that in terms of,
hey, what skills do they havethat they could help me out with
(13:04):
one day?
You know how do they fit intomy personal network?
So on some sense, you should bealways seeking out in an
interview sense people to beyour allies, people to be in
your personal network and peopleto be potential mentors.
(13:24):
So let's say we're in ascenario like you said, right.
So, ideally speaking, you'reassigned, let's say, a new
project.
You realize that this issomething that you haven't done
before and it's criticallyimportant that you find a mentor
right.
So, ideally speaking, you'vealready been in the organization
(13:47):
, you've already met some people.
You may already have a fewcandidates in your head of folks
that might be able to mentoryou through it.
So let me just go through someof that criteria.
I would think one you wantsomebody that you can get along
(14:08):
with right, but again, alignswith your personality on some
level.
I would also critically I wouldsay critically important is
someone who's been through aproject like that before, who
has experienced, who's walked onthat road.
So I would think that that'sanother criteria.
(14:30):
I would say another criteria issomebody that's interested,
unbiasedly, actually interestedin your success and we can get
to what I mean by that in aminute.
But you want somebody that'sinterested in your project
success and even in yourpersonal success and that's what
(14:54):
I'm saying.
And I would say finally, inaddition to the trustworthiness
and speak truth to you andthings like that but actually
has time to sit down and mentoryou.
Even the best mentors ifthey're bogged down and they
don't have time, then theyshould try to be honest with you
and tell you that fact.
(15:15):
But you want somebody that youcan have access to and have
those conversations.
You smell good having a mentorif you and or they don't have
time to actually do the.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
You said something at the beginning of your answer
and I know what you mean, but Iwant you to clarify it.
Talk about it more, especiallyfor listeners that are just
starting their careers incorporate.
You said that you should gothrough your day in your
interaction as if you're alwaysbeing interviewed.
I agree, but elaborate on it.
(15:53):
What do you mean more?
Explain it more for the newentrance into the corporate
world.
What do you mean by it?
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Yeah.
So during an interview, you'rereally trying to sell your best
self to that organization andhopefully at the same time in
the interview, you're alsotrying to figure out if this
organization fits for you.
Right, If it fits for you, andwhat are the types of things
(16:24):
that you could do in thatorganization that would work for
you.
So I think every day when yougo to work, it's not right if
you decide there's an like I'lljust say it for me.
It would not be right ifthere's an interview, George,
where I show my best off, andthen there's my everyday George,
which is just mediocre, right.
(16:45):
I'm not interacting with peoplewith a good attitude.
I'm not putting myself outthere like I said I would during
the interview To me.
Now, instead of justinterviewing, I need to live out
who I said I was during theinterview and hopefully I wasn't
(17:06):
exaggerating or pushingsomething beyond the truth
during the interview.
You can't expect to treatsomebody badly one day at work
and then get their help the nextday.
So you really have to becareful with how you brand
yourself, how you hold yourrelationships, and I actually
(17:29):
the reason why I brought that upis that bleeds over into
mentoring.
A bit right?
How do you carry yourself?
Who are you?
Do you have integrity?
Are you living out your values?
And I believe that's somethingthat you want to be as a mentee,
and that's the type of personyou want as a mentor.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Yes, and to add on to what you just said, I agree
with everything you said, andnot to take it in a different
direction, but just one quickcomment because, also, when you
do approach every interaction tosome extent as if it's an
interview, you're building yournetwork.
(18:11):
People are getting to know you,know your brand, know who you
are.
You never know if 10, 15 yearsdown the road, a year down the
road, one of those people mighthave an opportunity.
They need somebody outside ofthe company, another career path
, something else.
Right, you're always marketingyourself, letting people know
who you are, what qualities youhave.
So that's just a little piece Iwanted to add on to what you
(18:34):
said because I agree.
I agree with you with the factthat you should always practice
what you preach and by preachingI mean what you said in an
interview practice it in youreveryday career life.
So, well said, I agree with you.
There's one point we talkedabout before and we had
disagreed on, and it's relatedto mentoring.
(18:56):
I'm going to bring it up again.
I'm going to pose it as aquestion Do you think I'm
looking for a mentor?
Should I pick, or should I notpick, someone that's in my
career path, or somebody that'smy boss's boss's boss, or my
(19:16):
boss, or like?
Let's keep this one down to avery simple example Can I take
my boss as my mentor?
Speaker 2 (19:26):
So my answer is yes, you can.
Yes, you can, but I believethat your direct supervisor
should naturally be some providesome mentoring for you anyway
(19:46):
as your supervisor.
But I would say that the bestmentors that you want to find
are people that areknowledgeable about your
scenario in some aspect but areoutside of your current hiring
chain, and let me just explainwhy I feel that way.
(20:08):
A little bit more it gets tothe unbiased opinion about you.
So if you do extraordinarilywell, let's say you are a
superstar, a diamond in therough, and all that mentor
needed to do is dust off alittle coal off of you and you
are that superstar diamond.
There are times and I've seenthis that now your supervisor is
(20:33):
actually scared of you becauseyou're going to take their job.
Okay.
So so what you know, so whatI'm saying is you want people
that are mentors that don't havea biased interest in you either
getting promoted or not gettingpromoted.
That's also why sometimes it'sdifficult having a mentor in
(20:55):
your department where you may becompeting at some point for
promotion, right, and so, forinstance, you know, let's say, I
found a mentor on that project.
It's somebody in my department,it's somebody that I'm going to
be in competition for apromotion at some point.
(21:15):
That person may come in and,instead of helping me do well
and get the credit, they showhow they were the ones that
helped me get there.
Yeah Right, and I'm justpointing out to avoid those
scenarios, you ideally wantsomeone who's somewhat detached
(21:38):
from the scenario so they canunbiasedly give you good
feedback.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I agree the one point one takeaway I will mention
that I try to avoid when I amworking is if I am a manager and
my boss is a senior manager andthe only next step I can take
is to be a senior manager, Ithink, right there, that is not
a good job to take.
(22:07):
Right, like, I always thinkit's better to have a couple of
pay grades between you and yourmanager so that, yes, your
manager, you know there will beno way in heck that you are
going to get promoted unlessyour manager moves to another
job or you go somewhere else asa senior manager.
But that lateral move upwardsit's not going to happen with
that guy there.
(22:27):
So, yes, I agree with you, andthat's one of the negativities
is that, yeah, that person canbe ever your mentor because
there is not going to make youequal to him or her.
But, george, knowing that weare human, humans are emotional,
humans like compliments, likepraise, some humans like to be
you know they are ego to be fedDon't you think it's a
(22:48):
diplomatic or good strategicmove that you go to your boss,
especially if it's the kind ofperson that likes to praise,
likes the acknowledgement, andtell them I want you to be my
mentor.
I mean, there is nothing thatsays you look up to a person or
you trust their expertise andknowledge more than asking them
to be your guide.
(23:10):
So don't you think there aresome cases where, in that
situation, you are an analystand your manager is a director
there is a comfort zone betweenboth of you?
Do you think in that case itwould be good to reach out to
that manager of yours to be yourmentor?
(23:30):
Or still not a good idea?
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Well, I think it depends.
I think it could be a goodchoice, but again, I think there
is a lot of dependence.
If you are going to that personto ask them as a mentor, to
flatter them or to try tomanipulate the situation, that
(23:58):
all over the place might havesome warning signs to me about
your intentions and why, andalso the ability of this person
to speak truth into your lifemight be hampered because of
that scenario.
But I would think if genuinelyyou see somebody, maybe a couple
(24:19):
, rungs up in the organizationthat just happens to be in your
direct line and has skills andthey line up in every other way
and they have time for you, thenI think it could be a very good
thing, a very positive thing.
But I think it really depends onthe scenario of how it is
(24:41):
approached.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
And that's kind of what I meant.
I did a minute that yours, andit's good that you mentioned it
so that I can clarify.
I did not mean that your solepurpose would be that you're
looking to kiss up to them or toflatter them, but I meant more
that you know what they are goodat, what they do, and this will
be an added piece that if youdo it, they might come across as
well that you're appreciatingtheir knowledge and expertise.
(25:06):
But it's a valid point that youmentioned.
That should not be the reason.
Now here's another questionwhat if the mentor is your
boss's boss's boss?
You think that should be evenas qualified as they are?
Do you think we should notapproach that individual just
because it may be threatening toyour manager, or would you
(25:29):
think that it's still somethingworth considering?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah, I still think this is either a thing that you
have to tread carefully.
Full disclosure I had a mentorthat was three rungs up ahead of
me and in my organization, soit can work.
It's great.
(25:54):
Most of the issues and thingsthat I spoke to that person
about, who was an excellentmentor, had more to do with my
perception of what was going onin the organization and how to
better align, and not withcertain specific skills like how
(26:14):
do I get myself promoted,because I wanted a free and fair
discourse.
So I set the boundaries of whatthat meant, because obviously
he could say, okay, I'll tellyou exactly what I'm looking for
personally to get promoted andthen I just go do them.
(26:39):
That's more of what asupervisor would do and then I'd
be going around my supervisor.
So I kept it professional and Ikept it on certain topics that
just made a lot of sense that Ithought this gentleman was very
good at, which wasorganizational perception and
how to position and how tounderstand, how to navigate some
(27:01):
of your organization.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Did you let your manager know that you have the
mentor A and B, or did you evenlet him know, before you
approached that mentor, that youwere going to do this?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
So kind of an odd scenario.
This person was my mentor andthere was a slight reorg that I
got into a new supervisor andthat supervisor happened to work
like three runs down from mymentor.
So I did let them know.
I said, by the way, thisperson's been my mentor for a
(27:36):
little while.
There was a reorg.
I want to keep them as a mentor.
This is the nature of therelationship.
I hope he felt comfortable andhe was a very mature manager and
did not have an issue with it.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Yeah, because I do think I mean we can wrap up with
this point.
I do think if, in that scenario, if you do reach out to
somebody that's above yourdirect manager, that you should
let your manager know about it,just out of respect and to avoid
any future complications ormisunderstandings that may arise
.
Perfect, anything else you want?
To add George Before we wrap up.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Yeah, just one more thing I just want to put out
there.
I mean, we've been talkingabout scenarios where you're
seeking out individuals on yourown.
I just want to point out thatyou can also ask your supervisor
.
You can ask senior people inthe organization and say, hey,
I'm looking for mentorship, Iwant to get better.
(28:37):
Who would you recommend?
And you can do that.
So some organizations will havementoring programs.
So within my outside ofMontclair, I work full time.
I signed up as part of theirmentoring program and I've
listed my skills and my resumeto be picked as a mentor.
(29:01):
So I do think that there's lotsof scenarios where you can have
then get help in being matchedup appropriately.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Perfect, good information, george.
I appreciate you saying that,ending with that, so that people
again, especially people thatare new into the corporate life,
keep these things in mind,because I do think they're very,
very helpful and things thatcould help act as a catalyst for
someone in their career.
Anything else.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
That's good.
It's a great conversation we'vehad.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
No, man, thank you.
Thank you for sharing all thisinformation, and I think this
was a good second discussionafter what we talked about in
the last podcast.
So thanks a lot, george.
Thank you again, man.
Thanks for joining and I'llgive it back to you.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Always a pleasure, mo , so we're going to end this
podcast by saying thank you allfor listening to this episode of
Back to Basics on the BusinessEdge, brought to you by
Feliciano School of Business atMontclair State University.
We hope you enjoy this podcastand welcome any feedback you
have for us, includingsuggestions for future topics.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Thank you, george again, thank you everybody for
listening and we will see younext time on the Back to Basics
podcast.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Take care everyone.
See you next time, Bye.
Hello everybody, Welcome back to Back to Basics.
I am Mauro Hussini and I'm herewith Mr George.
Welcome back, George, to thepodcast.
How are you doing, buddy?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Say good stuff, mauro .
It's a rainy day out here onceagain, and we'll be here
podcasting Lots of fun.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Same here, man, same here.
How's work going?
You're doing good.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Works super busy, just the way I like it it's one
of those things.
That's true.
It makes the day go by, and Ilike getting things done, and
sitting down and just staring atwalls isn't fun for me, so I
like to get going All right,buddy.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Glad to hear that.
George, what do you say?
Last week, I think we weretalking about coaching versus
mentoring.
And I know you have a lot ofexperience mentoring people.
I don't know you had mentors inyour past, early on in your
career.
What do you say we talk about?
Let's focus on mentoring todayand finding the right mentor.
(01:14):
What do you do?
How do you find the rightmentor?
So what I'm going to do is I'mgoing to give it to you.
Actually, why don't you tell us, speak your mind.
What do you think are the do'sand don'ts, or what should we do
when we're trying to pick amentor?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
So, look, you know, let's just kind of skinny it
down a little bit.
More than that.
Let's try to define, you know,the scenario we're in, right?
So you know, I believe you canfind mentors in your life.
You know, outside business,right?
So I think that some of thethings we're going to talk about
(01:54):
today in an organization eventranslates into outside your
organization, right?
So, like, for instance, mo, Iconsider you even though we
don't call it mentoring, youknow I consider you to be one of
my mentors, right?
Oftentimes I call you up foradvice.
(02:14):
I, you know, try to give youthe scenario.
I ask you what should I doabout it?
And I respect your opinion, Irespect what you've done with
your life and I know that, eventhough we're also friends,
you're not afraid to tell me thetruth or call me out in a
(02:35):
situation.
It's a hey, george, you knowyou might be right about this,
but look at what you did.
And I appreciate that.
And I want to first start outwith that sort of relationship.
You know, usually when you pickout mentors, you want somebody
(02:57):
that maybe not exactly the sameworldview as you but maybe has a
similar worldview to you.
So, you know, in business, youknow, if you're somebody that is
not super aggressive, let's say, and you know you want to, just
(03:17):
, you know, be happy in your joband grow just within your job,
you know you don't want to pairup with a mentor who is maybe
super aggressive or superaggressive and flashy, right,
and I'm not saying it's nothelpful to pick somebody that
(03:38):
has a skill or something thatyou don't have, but you want
somebody that pairs with youwell, that you know, when you're
talking about your wanton life,you know is going to understand
at least where you're comingfrom.
So I say that you know, like amentor that has that same kind
(04:01):
of value and definition ofsuccess, right?
So I'll give you an exampleSome people in business, they're
interested in climbing a ladderand making a lot of money very
fast.
If that appeals to you, right,and that's the way you want to
move up, then you know, thenthat's the type of mentor you
want somebody who's a fast mover.
(04:22):
Or maybe there's other mentorsthat are just really good at
some skill or some job, butthey're not super aggressive,
but they want to show value,they want to do things, and it's
not necessarily a right orwrong, but you need to have some
sort of commonplace of values.
What do you think about thatMal?
Speaker 1 (04:43):
No, I.
Usually this is a fully loadedanswer in a good way and, excuse
me, I want to start off.
I mean, I'm flattered.
I always tell you that I'mflattered and honored that you
consider me a mentor and youknow the feeling is mutual and
from what you were talking about, I was going to ask you a
question, but I actuallyanswered it for myself and I'll
(05:05):
give you, I'll tell you what itis.
I was thinking I was going toask you, george, based upon what
you're saying, as far asinterest and so on, do you pick
a mentor that shares your sametype of personality or not?
And regardless of what youranswer was going to be, I
actually think that the answeris no, not necessarily, because
(05:26):
when I think about I don't knowif you remember, george, a
couple of it was more than adecade ago when I had a
consulting gig and you arehelping me, but I know with
helping me find people topartner with with the RP and I
know you couldn't, because ofyour work obligations, be a part
of it with me, but you helpedme, put me and I came back to
you with a lot of questions asfar as who I should reach out to
(05:51):
, what I should do, what my planshould be.
And from your answers to me, Irealized that sometimes I don't
want to say impulsive, but I'mquick in my decisions and you're
more calculating and morecautious and more slow.
So I realized that thatdiffering aspect in our
personalities is actually a goodthing, that when I come to you
(06:14):
for mentorship or for advice,the fact that you don't share my
type of decision making speedor process is actually something
I look for, like when I'm goingto make a decision, to do
something, I pick up the phoneto call you, knowing that your
personality is more cautious,more slow in making decisions
(06:35):
than I am.
So, regardless of the actualtopic that we're talking about
your background, yourpersonality compliments, fits in
well with what I'm looking todo.
Does that make sense?
You know what I mean.
So I think my takeaway is thatwhen you're looking for a mentor
(06:55):
or somebody that you're seekingadvice or help from, don't
always try to find somebodythat's exactly like you
personality wise.
It's good to find somebodythat's you know.
If we're talking about the disk, somebody that's maybe more of
a C.
If you're more of an I,somebody that's more compliant,
more calculating.
If you are, somebody that'smore outgoing and more quick in
(07:18):
your decision making.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
I completely agree with that and I think you know
what happens is you end up beinga stronger team for that reason
, right.
But what I saw, I think what wehave, is an interesting combo
where, you know, you and I havea very similar worldview in
terms of, like, our values,right, and how we do hierarchy,
(07:50):
but how our brains naturallyoperate or are a bit different,
and what I think happens is wehave very interesting
conversations because you knowintuitively, you move forward
faster than I do.
So I, you know I don't Iquestion things that you might
(08:14):
not question invites first.
So it makes for a betterconversation and an honest
conversation where we'recomfortable enough with each
other, where we're not offendedby somebody saying I don't agree
with you, that you know that's.
I don't need to be selfvalidated in that, neither do
you, because we know that it'sdone in a caring way, right, and
(08:39):
I think that that's another bigaspect for a mentor.
You need to have a mentor thatis one willing to speak truth to
you and understand that'sallowed and at the same time,
it's trustworthy.
You're not going to be able tohave a mentor and share aspects
(09:03):
of maybe, your emotions, yourfeelings, your needs, your wants
, if you just cannot trust them.
So, of course, in a businesssetting you know you get to
understand that there are somelimits on where you want to draw
that line with trust.
(09:24):
But what I'm saying is if youcan't have mutual trust and
respect with your mentor, thatis a big problem and it's not
going to be a good, healthymentoring relationship.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
And to point out something else that you said a
few minutes ago, just because Iwant to point out.
I want to say it again becauseI think it's important.
You cannot go into this mentalrelationship if you are going to
be intimidated by the critiqueor negative like if they're
going to give you any negativefeedback or give you any advice.
(10:03):
You cannot be intimidated orupset by it.
You have to accept it.
You have to be flexible,open-minded to the feedback that
you're going to get.
So there, just like I said,there is that sense of trust
that this person is looking atfor me.
They are looking to help me.
Having a mentor is not a partof oh, I have a mentor, that I'm
(10:24):
going to be fine.
No, it's actually listening towhat that mentor tells you,
accepting the feedback that theygive you.
Just like, again, our examplewhen I was going into the
consulting and he would come andtell me no more, you can't do
this yet.
Wait on this meeting.
Go over this for it, especiallythe technical aspects.
Yes, you have to.
If this is what you're lookingfor from a mentor, then take it.
(10:47):
It can't be a partial, half andhalf thing, right?
If you are looking for thatadvice.
Take the advice and listen toit.
Now can we move to somethingelse, george, or do you have
anything else to say about this?
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Oh, of course please.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Okay, so I have a project I'm working on.
I have something specific thatI'm working on and I get a
mentor to help me with it.
What are the qualifications,the quality, like you know?
(11:27):
What are the criteria?
What is it that I look for?
What are some of the thingsmore now we're talking about,
instead of like more holisticbut now more specific?
Right, so I'm working on aproject that is specific and I
need to help with it.
I want a mentor to help me, toguide me through it.
What are the checks that I gothrough, the selective criteria
(11:54):
to pick that mentor?
What do you think I should lookfor?
Speaker 2 (11:57):
So let me just I'll get to answering that, but let
me set things up a little bitmore right.
So I believe when you're in anorganization, especially larger
corporate organizations, youshould see yourself going at
work every day, with everyinteraction you have, as being
(12:21):
some sort of interview.
You need to understand how topresent yourself and talk about
yourself in a certain way thatyou're consistent, because that
becomes a dominant.
Even if you go and say post fora job or interview for a job,
you can't change yourpersonality all of a sudden.
(12:43):
You know people will know whoyou are internally.
In the same context, you shouldbe constantly interviewing and
thinking about people in yourorganization that in terms of,
hey, what skills do they havethat they could help me out with
(13:04):
one day?
You know how do they fit intomy personal network?
So on some sense, you should bealways seeking out in an
interview sense people to beyour allies, people to be in
your personal network and peopleto be potential mentors.
(13:24):
So let's say we're in ascenario like you said, right.
So, ideally speaking, you'reassigned, let's say, a new
project.
You realize that this issomething that you haven't done
before and it's criticallyimportant that you find a mentor
right.
So, ideally speaking, you'vealready been in the organization
(13:47):
, you've already met some people.
You may already have a fewcandidates in your head of folks
that might be able to mentoryou through it.
So let me just go through someof that criteria.
I would think one you wantsomebody that you can get along
(14:08):
with right, but again, alignswith your personality on some
level.
I would also critically I wouldsay critically important is
someone who's been through aproject like that before, who
has experienced, who's walked onthat road.
So I would think that that'sanother criteria.
(14:30):
I would say another criteria issomebody that's interested,
unbiasedly, actually interestedin your success and we can get
to what I mean by that in aminute.
But you want somebody that'sinterested in your project
success and even in yourpersonal success and that's what
(14:54):
I'm saying.
And I would say finally, inaddition to the trustworthiness
and speak truth to you andthings like that but actually
has time to sit down and mentoryou.
Even the best mentors ifthey're bogged down and they
don't have time, then theyshould try to be honest with you
and tell you that fact.
(15:15):
But you want somebody that youcan have access to and have
those conversations.
You smell good having a mentorif you and or they don't have
time to actually do the.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
You said something at the beginning of your answer
and I know what you mean, but Iwant you to clarify it.
Talk about it more, especiallyfor listeners that are just
starting their careers incorporate.
You said that you should gothrough your day in your
interaction as if you're alwaysbeing interviewed.
I agree, but elaborate on it.
(15:53):
What do you mean more?
Explain it more for the newentrance into the corporate
world.
What do you mean by it?
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Yeah.
So during an interview, you'rereally trying to sell your best
self to that organization andhopefully at the same time in
the interview, you're alsotrying to figure out if this
organization fits for you.
Right, If it fits for you, andwhat are the types of things
(16:24):
that you could do in thatorganization that would work for
you.
So I think every day when yougo to work, it's not right if
you decide there's an like I'lljust say it for me.
It would not be right ifthere's an interview, George,
where I show my best off, andthen there's my everyday George,
which is just mediocre, right.
(16:45):
I'm not interacting with peoplewith a good attitude.
I'm not putting myself outthere like I said I would during
the interview To me.
Now, instead of justinterviewing, I need to live out
who I said I was during theinterview and hopefully I wasn't
(17:06):
exaggerating or pushingsomething beyond the truth
during the interview.
You can't expect to treatsomebody badly one day at work
and then get their help the nextday.
So you really have to becareful with how you brand
yourself, how you hold yourrelationships, and I actually
(17:29):
the reason why I brought that upis that bleeds over into
mentoring.
A bit right?
How do you carry yourself?
Who are you?
Do you have integrity?
Are you living out your values?
And I believe that's somethingthat you want to be as a mentee,
and that's the type of personyou want as a mentor.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Yes, and to add on to what you just said, I agree
with everything you said, andnot to take it in a different
direction, but just one quickcomment because, also, when you
do approach every interaction tosome extent as if it's an
interview, you're building yournetwork.
(18:11):
People are getting to know you,know your brand, know who you
are.
You never know if 10, 15 yearsdown the road, a year down the
road, one of those people mighthave an opportunity.
They need somebody outside ofthe company, another career path
, something else.
Right, you're always marketingyourself, letting people know
who you are, what qualities youhave.
So that's just a little piece Iwanted to add on to what you
(18:34):
said because I agree.
I agree with you with the factthat you should always practice
what you preach and by preachingI mean what you said in an
interview practice it in youreveryday career life.
So, well said, I agree with you.
There's one point we talkedabout before and we had
disagreed on, and it's relatedto mentoring.
(18:56):
I'm going to bring it up again.
I'm going to pose it as aquestion Do you think I'm
looking for a mentor?
Should I pick, or should I notpick, someone that's in my
career path, or somebody that'smy boss's boss's boss, or my
(19:16):
boss, or like?
Let's keep this one down to avery simple example Can I take
my boss as my mentor?
Speaker 2 (19:26):
So my answer is yes, you can.
Yes, you can, but I believethat your direct supervisor
should naturally be some providesome mentoring for you anyway
(19:46):
as your supervisor.
But I would say that the bestmentors that you want to find
are people that areknowledgeable about your
scenario in some aspect but areoutside of your current hiring
chain, and let me just explainwhy I feel that way.
(20:08):
A little bit more it gets tothe unbiased opinion about you.
So if you do extraordinarilywell, let's say you are a
superstar, a diamond in therough, and all that mentor
needed to do is dust off alittle coal off of you and you
are that superstar diamond.
There are times and I've seenthis that now your supervisor is
(20:33):
actually scared of you becauseyou're going to take their job.
Okay.
So so what you know, so whatI'm saying is you want people
that are mentors that don't havea biased interest in you either
getting promoted or not gettingpromoted.
That's also why sometimes it'sdifficult having a mentor in
(20:55):
your department where you may becompeting at some point for
promotion, right, and so, forinstance, you know, let's say, I
found a mentor on that project.
It's somebody in my department,it's somebody that I'm going to
be in competition for apromotion at some point.
(21:15):
That person may come in and,instead of helping me do well
and get the credit, they showhow they were the ones that
helped me get there.
Yeah Right, and I'm justpointing out to avoid those
scenarios, you ideally wantsomeone who's somewhat detached
(21:38):
from the scenario so they canunbiasedly give you good
feedback.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I agree the one point one takeaway I will mention
that I try to avoid when I amworking is if I am a manager and
my boss is a senior manager andthe only next step I can take
is to be a senior manager, Ithink, right there, that is not
a good job to take.
(22:07):
Right, like, I always thinkit's better to have a couple of
pay grades between you and yourmanager so that, yes, your
manager, you know there will beno way in heck that you are
going to get promoted unlessyour manager moves to another
job or you go somewhere else asa senior manager.
But that lateral move upwardsit's not going to happen with
that guy there.
(22:27):
So, yes, I agree with you, andthat's one of the negativities
is that, yeah, that person canbe ever your mentor because
there is not going to make youequal to him or her.
But, george, knowing that weare human, humans are emotional,
humans like compliments, likepraise, some humans like to be
you know they are ego to be fedDon't you think it's a
(22:48):
diplomatic or good strategicmove that you go to your boss,
especially if it's the kind ofperson that likes to praise,
likes the acknowledgement, andtell them I want you to be my
mentor.
I mean, there is nothing thatsays you look up to a person or
you trust their expertise andknowledge more than asking them
to be your guide.
(23:10):
So don't you think there aresome cases where, in that
situation, you are an analystand your manager is a director
there is a comfort zone betweenboth of you?
Do you think in that case itwould be good to reach out to
that manager of yours to be yourmentor?
(23:30):
Or still not a good idea?
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Well, I think it depends.
I think it could be a goodchoice, but again, I think there
is a lot of dependence.
If you are going to that personto ask them as a mentor, to
flatter them or to try tomanipulate the situation, that
(23:58):
all over the place might havesome warning signs to me about
your intentions and why, andalso the ability of this person
to speak truth into your lifemight be hampered because of
that scenario.
But I would think if genuinelyyou see somebody, maybe a couple
(24:19):
, rungs up in the organizationthat just happens to be in your
direct line and has skills andthey line up in every other way
and they have time for you, thenI think it could be a very good
thing, a very positive thing.
But I think it really depends onthe scenario of how it is
(24:41):
approached.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
And that's kind of what I meant.
I did a minute that yours, andit's good that you mentioned it
so that I can clarify.
I did not mean that your solepurpose would be that you're
looking to kiss up to them or toflatter them, but I meant more
that you know what they are goodat, what they do, and this will
be an added piece that if youdo it, they might come across as
well that you're appreciatingtheir knowledge and expertise.
(25:06):
But it's a valid point that youmentioned.
That should not be the reason.
Now here's another questionwhat if the mentor is your
boss's boss's boss?
You think that should be evenas qualified as they are?
Do you think we should notapproach that individual just
because it may be threatening toyour manager, or would you
(25:29):
think that it's still somethingworth considering?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah, I still think this is either a thing that you
have to tread carefully.
Full disclosure I had a mentorthat was three rungs up ahead of
me and in my organization, soit can work.
It's great.
(25:54):
Most of the issues and thingsthat I spoke to that person
about, who was an excellentmentor, had more to do with my
perception of what was going onin the organization and how to
better align, and not withcertain specific skills like how
(26:14):
do I get myself promoted,because I wanted a free and fair
discourse.
So I set the boundaries of whatthat meant, because obviously
he could say, okay, I'll tellyou exactly what I'm looking for
personally to get promoted andthen I just go do them.
(26:39):
That's more of what asupervisor would do and then I'd
be going around my supervisor.
So I kept it professional and Ikept it on certain topics that
just made a lot of sense that Ithought this gentleman was very
good at, which wasorganizational perception and
how to position and how tounderstand, how to navigate some
(27:01):
of your organization.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Did you let your manager know that you have the
mentor A and B, or did you evenlet him know, before you
approached that mentor, that youwere going to do this?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
So kind of an odd scenario.
This person was my mentor andthere was a slight reorg that I
got into a new supervisor andthat supervisor happened to work
like three runs down from mymentor.
So I did let them know.
I said, by the way, thisperson's been my mentor for a
(27:36):
little while.
There was a reorg.
I want to keep them as a mentor.
This is the nature of therelationship.
I hope he felt comfortable andhe was a very mature manager and
did not have an issue with it.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Yeah, because I do think I mean we can wrap up with
this point.
I do think if, in that scenario, if you do reach out to
somebody that's above yourdirect manager, that you should
let your manager know about it,just out of respect and to avoid
any future complications ormisunderstandings that may arise
.
Perfect, anything else you want?
To add George Before we wrap up.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Yeah, just one more thing I just want to put out
there.
I mean, we've been talkingabout scenarios where you're
seeking out individuals on yourown.
I just want to point out thatyou can also ask your supervisor
.
You can ask senior people inthe organization and say, hey,
I'm looking for mentorship, Iwant to get better.
(28:37):
Who would you recommend?
And you can do that.
So some organizations will havementoring programs.
So within my outside ofMontclair, I work full time.
I signed up as part of theirmentoring program and I've
listed my skills and my resumeto be picked as a mentor.
(29:01):
So I do think that there's lotsof scenarios where you can have
then get help in being matchedup appropriately.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Perfect, good information, george.
I appreciate you saying that,ending with that, so that people
again, especially people thatare new into the corporate life,
keep these things in mind,because I do think they're very,
very helpful and things thatcould help act as a catalyst for
someone in their career.
Anything else.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
That's good.
It's a great conversation we'vehad.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
No, man, thank you.
Thank you for sharing all thisinformation, and I think this
was a good second discussionafter what we talked about in
the last podcast.
So thanks a lot, george.
Thank you again, man.
Thanks for joining and I'llgive it back to you.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Always a pleasure, mo , so we're going to end this
podcast by saying thank you allfor listening to this episode of
Back to Basics on the BusinessEdge, brought to you by
Feliciano School of Business atMontclair State University.
We hope you enjoy this podcastand welcome any feedback you
have for us, includingsuggestions for future topics.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Thank you, george again, thank you everybody for
listening and we will see younext time on the Back to Basics
podcast.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Take care everyone.
See you next time, Bye.
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