November 1, 2023 • 30 mins
Feliciano School of Business faculty members in the department of Information Management and Business Analytics, Dr. Mahmoud ElHussini and Dr. George Elias discuss issues and problems being faced by business professionals. On this podcast, they discuss what your body language says about you. Dr. Moe and Dr. George breakdown issues and problems being encountered by entrepreneurs, executives, and all levels of managers.
Co-Hosts Background:
Mahmoud (Moe) Elhussini, MS, MBA, DBA, is an Instructor Specialist at Montclair State University. He is also the president and founder of The Growth Coach Allentown - Somerville. A consulting and business coaching company. Moe has worked in data & operations management for over a decade. He then switched to business consulting, helping companies build ERP and customer interface systems. After that he transitioned into international business development, helping companies manage their internal organic growth or through mergers and strategic alliances. Moe has published a couple of handbooks, one on emotional intelligence and another on servant leadership. He is currently working on a third that revolves around overcoming sales objections. Moe has a BA in Biology from Rutgers University, an MBA in Global Management, and MS in Information Management, and a DBA in Geopolitics and Strategy. At Montclair University, Moe is part of the Information Management and Business Analytics Department. He teaches Business Decision Making, Operations Management, and Statistics in Business courses.
George Elias, Ph.D., PMP is Chief Systems Engineer for Space and Airborne Systems leading initiatives in integrated spectrum management and mission avionics at L3Harris Technologies. Additionally, Dr. Elias is as an adjunct professor at Montclair State University’s department of information management & business analytics where he teaches business operations and statistics. Dr. Elias is experienced in leading the development and production of complex hardware and software system solutions including: electronic warfare systems, communication systems, and space systems. Previously, Dr. Elias served as the Director of Capture Excellence & Business Development Operations for the Electronic Warfare Sector. As an L3Harris Technologies Certified Enterprise Capture Lead, Dr. Elias was responsible for directing large, complex pursuits across the enterprise. In addition to systems engineering and business development, Dr. Elias has held roles in finance, quality assurance, operations/manufacturing, modeling and simulation, project engineering, program management, and Internal Research and Development (IRAD). Dr. Elias has a Doctorate in Systems Engineering, a Masters Certificate in Project Management, and a Masters in Computer Science from Stevens Institute of Technology. Additionally, Dr. Elias has a Bachelors in Computer Information Systems from Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey & New Jersey Institute of Technology. Finally, Dr. Elias has a Mini-MBA from Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello everybody, welcome back to Back to Basics.
I am Moe Hussini and I am herewith my dear friend, george
Elias.
Welcome, george, to the podcast.
As always, how are you doing,buddy?
How are you Doing great.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Moe, I really enjoy doing these podcasts with you.
Let me just start out by sayingthat I just when you say
something.
I just noticed our last podcasthad been when it's raining
outside.
So I think there's a pattern.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Is it raining, though ?
Because I'm in my office, Ihaven't even looked outside.
My curtains are drawn.
Is it raining?
I've been here for like fivehours.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
It's raining for me.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
That's spooky.
It's almost Halloween too, sonow that's interesting.
I didn't even notice.
Who knows, maybe next timeit'll be snowing the way the
weather is going Like crazyweather, I know, I know.
Tell me, what do you want totalk about today?
What's on your mind?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
You know, moe, I've been really thinking about body
language recently and I thoughtthat that would be an
interesting topic for us.
Have you ever noticed that whensomebody walks into a room or
when you're first introduced tosomebody that you haven't met
before, you can immediatelyfigure out if that's somebody
(01:30):
that you like or dislike, or youfeel like they're a good person
to do business?
Have you ever had that sort ofsometimes you call it like
intuition or just like aninstant feeling about somebody?
Does that happen to you?
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Interesting you know what?
Yeah, no, no, it has.
It has happened, I think.
Let me put it to you this way,George yes, it happens.
I think as I have progressedthrough my career, I've been
able to maybe harness it orcontrol it or not let it impact
(02:08):
my decision more, but absolutelyI think it's there.
Yes, I think it happens.
Why do you feel it too?
Does it happen to you?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I've actually noticed it quite a bit and I agree that
I've noticed it more as I'vegotten along in my career and I
try not to pass a final judgment.
I try to slow down with thatsort of what do we call it
intuition and try to figure outmore about the person than just
(02:42):
the way they look or theypresent themselves.
I think in the business world,especially when you're thinking
about working with customers notall customers are like that and
it's sort of a scary thing tothink that your customers, or
the people that you want to dobusiness with you, are going to
(03:04):
judge you so quickly, perhapseven before you start to speak,
or present and it makes me thinkof two things.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
But even it's more critical when it happens in an
interview process and I think wetalked about it briefly many
episodes ago when it createsthis kind of like anchoring
effect where I shake your handsand the second I see you and I
meet you.
I've developed this kind oflike label that I'm going to
(03:35):
label you with and theneverything that happens
afterwards, afterwards, it'skind of like just a confirmation
to how I feel, no matter howgood you actually turn out to be
or how polite or how diplomatic, that's it.
I came up with this conclusionin my mind that no matter what
you do, it just anchors it moreand more in my mind.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
You know what I mean.
You know it's funny that youbring in confirmation bias, but
there's a lot of truth to that.
But once you've formed youropinion and I think it's
interesting that you brought itto even a handshake, which is, I
think, a further evolution ofbody language, which includes
(04:18):
you know, hopefully positivetouch right, you know you have a
nice, warm, firm handshake.
Hopefully you're looking theperson in the eye, smiling,
you're dressed for the interview, you look presentable, You're
smiling, you have a pleasantsmile on.
All those sorts of actions canhelp somebody form a positive
(04:44):
view of you, then from then onyou know things that you say.
If you help them with theirconfirmation bias, in a sense
you're on a really good trackfor that interview, aren't you?
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get your point 100%.
You know what?
Not to this.
Not to open this up to a wholeother discussion that could take
hours and hours and hours.
But back to the handshake.
What if you don't even want toshake someone's hand?
What if your culture, yourreligion, your background, your
upbringing, you know you're in acountry where opposite genders
(05:22):
do not shake hands?
And my point is, without evenanswering it, is that we should
really kind of look at thecombination of the cues all
together, right, like it's acombination of things the
culture, the background of theindividual.
Sometimes what we see has amuch, much deeper meaning or
(05:46):
unseen I don't know what's theword I'm looking for now but has
like an underlying.
You know, really, actors thatcould factor into how that
person is interacting with you.
So I think, yes, what we see,the handshaking, the hugging,
the smiling, the eye contact,that's what we see.
(06:07):
But there could be manytriggers behind the scenes that
lead to what it is that we seefrom the individual.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah, I agree with you.
It's almost difficult to talkabout body language and these
sort of triggers withoutbringing in gender and bias
feelings about that, ordifferences in genders in the
way that people tend to interact, or differences in cultures and
bias in the way people thinkabout it.
(06:38):
I mean, I think back to thefirst time I went to Shakespeare
with Hand in a business typesetting and she didn't raise her
hand to shake back and Iremember the feeling of, on my
hand part, a feeling ofawkwardness at first, until she
(07:04):
looked right at me and said I'msorry, I don't shake hands for
religious reasons.
And that actually turned around.
It was her demeanor and the wayshe said it for me defused the
situation with the explanation,where I no longer felt awkward,
that it was about me for somereason and it was just.
(07:25):
it is what it is and for me itwas an educational piece and
understanding her point of viewand where she was, and for me it
was like, oh, I just learnedsomething about her.
She was able to diffuse andhelp the situation in a very
calm, nice manner.
She was still looking pleasant,not, you know, disgusted or
(07:48):
something like that.
And that really actually helped,informing a very me having a
very positive viewpoint of her,and we ended up actually working
together in a very positivesense.
So I don't think that allbecause somebody doesn't shake
hands or doesn't do somethingfor cultural reasons, that
(08:10):
necessarily excludes them fromdoing business very, very
effectively.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Yes, and I think one.
I agree 100%, and I think oneof the takeaways from our
podcast today, or whenever weend this discussion after one or
many podcasts, one of thetakeaways that I'll bring up
from now is we shouldn't bequick to judge.
We shouldn't be quick to labelsomebody as nice guy, bad guy,
(08:36):
hostile guy, right, we shouldgive the benefit of the doubt to
all those things that we'vementioned in the last couple of
minutes, kind of like what youwent through, I went through it
and you know what.
You were fortunate that youwere with somebody that's
outgoing and confident enough toexplain the reason.
What if she was an introvert?
Or what if it was like such aquick situation where she didn't
(08:58):
get a chance to explain?
That would have been it.
You know what?
You would have labeled her asan unfriendly, whatever it is
that came through your mind.
I will not speak for you, butwhatever thoughts that would
have come through your mind,there's your anchor, right?
That would have been it.
So if you don't have anythingelse to comment, I'm gonna give
(09:19):
it back to you.
But why don't you eithercomment on what I said or let's
start with one.
Let's look at another attributeeye contact.
You wanna start with that.
You know like let's take itfrom the handshake, let's work
our way into another one.
What do you think about eyecontact?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yeah, so let me just comment on the handshake and the
culture aspect.
I think, unfortunately and I'malmost embarrassed to say it,
but unfortunately if she wasn'tso outgoing and maybe left it as
awkward, unfortunately I maynot have had such a positive
viewpoint of her and maybethere's a lesson in there, and I
(10:02):
hate to put the burden onsomebody that is in a culture
where there's handshakes orsomething.
I hate to put the burden onthem, but maybe if they know
that they're in a culture wherethere's things they can't
respond in the same way that Iguess how should I say?
(10:22):
Almost like tradition orsomething where people
traditionally shake hands inbusiness, they should somehow
rehearse or have something tosay like oh, I don't shake hands
for religious reasons, and mostpeople, most people are going
to be perfectly fine with that,just like she did with me, and I
(10:42):
think that it's a growthexperience for everybody, but
maybe somebody should, you know,have something to say about it,
right?
You know, I can't shake hands,you know, and just know that
it's okay to see that and,frankly, if the person is not
okay with that, that's somebodyyou don't want to do business
(11:04):
with anyway.
No, I agree.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
If someone's not tolerant enough to you or
adaptable enough to other pointsof view, I agree, I agree so
anything else around this pointI don't want to bring eyes, but
eyes are tremendously important,tremendously important and
(11:31):
they're important for business.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
They're actually very important If you're interested
in dating or courting somebody.
The way you look, whether youlook at them in their eyes or
not, you know this is a.
You know we're all human beings, but you know there's an
emotional, chemical reactioninside people when they're
looked at it in a pleasant way.
(11:53):
Now, you know, let's be, let'sall be careful with the eyes,
because you know you can look at, you know, let's say, somebody
that you're affection about orwant to date in some way, and
you're looking at them.
You know those eyes and howit's taken to be taken very
affectionately and draw thatperson in.
(12:14):
But if the person doesn't havegood feelings about you, it can
also be kind of creepy.
So, you know, I think thatthere's a proper use of eyes.
Don't overdo it.
If you're not getting the rightreaction, you know, don't think
that you can have, we can alljust stare, just stare in
contest until you're going towin it, because that's that's
not what it is.
But you know, when somebody istalking to you and they make
(12:39):
good, positive eye contact, itfeels good.
They're paying attention to you, they're interested in you.
You know this.
This is one of the reasons whyI've encouraged people to not do
phone or Zoom interviews whenbeing in person is is an option.
(13:00):
And if you're going to do a Zoomif you're going to do Zoom for
business, do things that as muchas possible to look in the
camera.
Have your camera on, look inthe camera, try to look at the
person when they're talking,because when you, when you look
distracted and it's harder overZoom, when you look distracted,
you're looking away People don'tmake the same connection and
(13:23):
ultimately that does that reallydoes affect your, your business
and your ability to move on tofurther stages in the interview
process.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
So let me pose it to you as a question Sustained eye
contact You're talking tosomebody and they have sustained
eye contact with you.
What does that signify to you?
Speaker 2 (13:48):
What would that tell?
Speaker 1 (13:49):
you, yeah, yeah, what ?
What is it to you?
Speaker 2 (13:53):
It, it.
To me, it means that they'reinterested in me, they're,
they're engaged, they're they'relistening, they, they, they
find me pleasant in some way.
It makes a huge difference, letme, let me just explain
something that I've, that I'veobserved, and you tell me if you
, if you've, observed this right.
Let's say there's a child, asmall child you know, I will
(14:20):
call him little Jimmy maybethree or four years old, right
Walks into the room with a bunchof adults.
Okay, yes.
One of the young ladies noticesthis this child walking through
with adults.
What does she do?
She's a typical thing that ayoung woman would do.
She will get down on thatchild's level.
(14:42):
Look him in the eyes, Right,Look in the eyes and, with a
very pleasant voice, oh, Jimmy,look at what you're doing.
Oh, you're here and she she'sgoing to be making direct eye
contact right into Jimmy andshe's going to be, you know,
carrying him with a hug andbringing him back to the room
(15:04):
for him to play right or orwhatever it's next.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yes, okay, yes.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
And, and you know I hate to say it, but we're all,
we all have that little kid inus still, even as adults, we all
have that, that little kid inus and we all want people to get
onto our level, to make eyecontact to, to talk pleasantly,
embrace us, even if it's notphysical, but embrace us in the
(15:29):
conversation or, you know, inthe presence, and that makes us
feel good, right.
And I'm just bringing that upbecause you know that's how we
grew up, you know, as childrenbeing treated and that's the way
we even want to be treated asadults.
And in the business worldthere's, you know,
appropriateness around thatthere's an appropriate way of
(15:51):
being greeted, of being lookedat and being talked to, and when
you're talked in thatappropriate, you know,
appropriately loving way, youcan't help but respond.
Little Jimmy felt good in thatmoment, Right.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
And and little Mo wants to feel good inside when,
when coming in doing business,and so does little.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
George, here no I agree with you, yes, and I think
I know I can think of somepeople that I have known that on
a social and professional level.
Oh, how to give that?
You know it's a mix ofaffection, interest, respect,
(16:35):
attention.
When they talk to somebody, youcan see the sincerity in their
eye.
It reflects that affection, theinterest you know.
They make you feel you'reimportant, they make you feel
valued.
I think it's a talent that somepeople are born with or that
they acquire, or it's part oftheir personality that they do
(16:56):
bring out or they do seek thatlittle Jimmy.
And then the person they'retalking to, and they know how to
feed it, they know how to makea connection through it right,
they know how to connect withthat person through that
approach that you're talkingabout.
I agree, I think if we all havethat in us and some people know
(17:17):
how to bring it out and knowhow to deal and communicate with
it, connect with it on manydifferent levels depending on
the nature of the interaction,now, no, go ahead.
What were you going to?
Speaker 2 (17:33):
say you know I, you know you said something, and
I'll just point out that I sortof disagree a little bit, only
that you said that it's likethey're born with it, and I do
think some people are much, arenaturally outgoing and have the
(17:53):
ability to do it.
But I also believe that thislevel of interaction is
trainable and I believe that forsomebody who's, let's say, is
just not good at making eyecontact, I think with working
with them and teaching them howto userize and to practice, you
(18:15):
know, talk to themselves in themirror, look at the.
Look at themselves in themirror.
When you're talking hey, ifyou're having a problem talking
to somebody, look in the eye.
You know.
Look at their forehead, lookbetween their eyes.
You know, start getting, startgetting that, I think.
I think there's it's trainable,I think, telling somebody to
use their eyes like they'resticky eyes.
(18:38):
So when you look at somebody,you know, look at them like
they're a little sticky and whenyou have to look away, look
away almost like you'rereluctant to look away, but you
have to, right.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
People pick.
You know when they're told andyou're trained, you can actually
break down the way you use youreyes.
It you know, even if you're notgood.
I think it's trainable.
So I the reason why I bringthis up is for the listeners.
I don't want them to feel like,if they're just not good at it,
there's nothing they can do.
There's a lot that you can doand the more you train, the more
(19:15):
you work at it, the better youget at it.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
I get your point.
It's a valid point.
The reason I said it the way Isaid it is because I believe
myself, anybody around me orlike us in general, our
tendencies that we talked about,I think, in one of our first
episodes, or what makes us, ispart hereditary, part through
our experience after we cross,maybe like the 18 year old age,
(19:42):
and part of it is through ourrole model, like how we see
people behave and act.
But I do believe thateverything you said is correct.
But I do believe it's kind oflike what I think about when you
say what you just said.
Absolutely Everybody should tryto train and improve and explore
and discover new things in them.
But I believe that to someextent it's going to kind of be
(20:04):
an introvert.
Let me take and teach you to begood at public speaking.
You know there's some things,yes, where we can learn and
train and practice.
Some we cannot.
But your point is valid thatthere are in between.
You know, even if I know thatI'm really really uncomfortable
dealing with people I'm reallybad at even shaking hands or
(20:25):
connecting, making eye contact Ishould, like you said, train,
try to practice and try to applyit to some extent, right.
So I agree that yes, no matterwhat, we should give it a try
and try to learn to do it.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
I mean, I guess I feel as though I agree with you,
you know with the, you knowthere's like a there's a nature
aspect of it, and you knowpeople having them, whether
they're introvert or extroverts.
But I think even with thatthere's ways of becoming better
and trainable, right?
I think that?
(21:08):
you know, and that's where I'mat, and I know that I was
fortunate with with, forinstance, my father, who was a
businessman, so I you know, hebrought me around at a very
young age where he was doingbusiness, so I got to see him
and emulate him and, you know,learn about that.
(21:28):
And I can also tell you that Iused to be part of a of a group
in high school that actuallycompeted doing things like
interviews, and I and I wascoached in in my teams on, you
know, posture and eye contactand what to do with your hands
and smiling and things like thisand all these things make a
(21:52):
huge difference.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Some people do it naturally Other people have to
be told.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Yes, you know.
And just one last thing thatthat I'll say about it.
You know, because you'retalking about posture and things
, I know that the military takesin and I know we've talked
about military a lot.
They taken people that are 17,18 years old and they teach them
how to stand up straight.
You know how to look, how to,how to, how to look forward, how
(22:19):
to articulate and talk, and youknow you can instantly see
somebody that's had thatmilitary type training in how to
present and I, because I see itall the time, you know I'm like
, oh, that person's the militaryof the way they stand.
You know, you're 17, 18 yearsold, you're still moldable,
you're still able to learn thesethings, and maybe you you won't
(22:42):
be that natural best at them,but you can learn enough where
you can turn it on and make itwork for you.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
I agree, I agree, and I mean, since you did, I
remember back God.
When was it?
Maybe 10, 11 years ago?
I remember me I went by yourdad's work.
I remember who took me out forlunch with him and a bunch of
his colleagues.
Remember when he was likehelping me learn some things and
like that new project I wasworking on with steel and
(23:10):
manufacturing and stuff.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
And I remember he took me out for lunch, remember?
Speaker 1 (23:14):
And yeah, we were sitting about seven of us and he
was the the heart of thediscussion and I see well, you
know what you're talking aboutnow.
He was the one connectingeverybody with everybody,
starting the conversations,creating that lively atmosphere,
and there were other guyssitting there that they needed
that nudge and that push, thatpush which, back to your point,
(23:37):
there are people that arenatural at it and some people
that are uncomfortable with it.
There are some people thatdon't like it, but, no matter
what, it is part of our dailylives and that we should
practice it and train on it tosome extent, as much as we can.
Agreed Um the rest of the face,all right, forget the eyes.
(24:00):
Facial expressions what, whatabout facial expression?
Expressive facial expressions?
What would they indicate?
Oh boy, mom, this is something,yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
I'm terrible at this because you know me you know me,
my face tells people exactlywhat I'm thinking.
There is no hiding, so I know,I know.
You know, so I'm happy.
If I'm feeling good aboutsomething, you can see it on my
face, and if I'm not, you cansee it on my face.
(24:38):
So I know that and I think youknow that.
People that know me know that.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
So other people are very are very good at managing
their facial expression.
They're very good at doing itand I think it's an asset in
business that, if you allow, Letme interrupt you for a second.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Hold on hold on hold on Cause you're saying something
I actually before.
We would be one and we forget,and I hope I didn't make some
trouble.
Sorry, but I consider actuallythe fact that you're facing.
I don't remember from thenineties when we would be going
at sitting up for druggers or goto the movies in the car and
you would have an argument withsomebody.
I think the fact that you showwhat you feel is a form of
(25:22):
sincerity.
It's actually you know, thefact that you're upfront and
you're honest about how you feel.
You know, you believe you havea point in your mind.
You're genuine and honest aboutit and it's sincere, it's
commendable and respectable thatyou actually express it.
Anyway, I just wanted tomention that because actually I
always think that that'sactually a good thing in you
(25:42):
that you don't sugarcoat things.
You know what you feel, youropinion about something you say,
you're sincere about it, you'rerespectable, diplomatic, but
you voice your opinion, voiceyour personality.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Well, thanks for saying that, Mo, and I really
appreciate that.
I feel those are a lot ofcompliments, right yeah?
Speaker 1 (26:03):
I think.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
What I mean by that is so, because my faith betrays
my feelings so well it justbubbles out of me.
I guess what likes and dislikes, and whether I agree or
disagree.
You can see it all over my face.
(26:26):
I'd be the worst poker playerin the world, right.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Everybody would know what hand I have.
That's why I don't think poker.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
But sometimes in business you need to have a
poker face, and that's what Imean.
You're right, you're right, andthat's what I'm saying.
I know I'm not good at it.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Right.
If somebody gives me a greatoffer, the smile is going to be
ear to ear.
I'm like I just got a greatoffer.
Other people who have a pokerface might be able to even
negotiate a better deal right.
And say, just because of the waythey can manage your facial
expressions and make the mostout of the business for that
(27:09):
right.
Or sometimes being in a veryupsetting situation and exuding
calm and even having your facialexpressions show that you're
calm, even when inside you'refreaking out a little bit.
People that can do that canlead people through a really
difficult situation.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
So I really think me.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
I have to make my inside calm.
I can't just have my face becalm, I literally have to calm
myself down for me to exude calm.
I know that about me and I haveto manage my feelings more than
my face, or maybe other peoplecan manage their face despite
their feelings.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Interesting.
That's a really interestingpoint.
For the sake of time I knowwe're almost out Remember that
point that you just mentionedabout controlling the inside to
control the outside, versusbeing able to disconnect both.
We should talk about that onemore, because I really think
it's an interesting point.
(28:12):
I think our differentpersonalities may approach that
in different ways, so why don'twe?
Are you okay if we start thenext episode?
We're going to continue ourdiscussion about body language,
facial expressions, but let'sbring that point up and start
from there.
What do you say?
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Yeah, I think that's really interesting and I'd like
to hear how you feel if there'sa cultural aspect to that as
well.
I'm going to think about it?
Because me personally, I thinkI've noticed, and again, I'm not
inside everybody, so I don'tknow.
But I think I've noticed thatthere are certain cultures that
(28:53):
are much better at having anoutside presentation versus what
their inside is doing when someother cultures.
There isn't as much of anemphasis on being able to do
that, so I'm curious how youfeel about that I'm going to
brainstorm on it between now andour next episode, and we'll
(29:15):
definitely talk more about it.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
George, let's do that .
Sounds good to me.
All right, man.
So this was really interesting.
I mean, like I said, we'regoing to take this to the next.
Continue the discussion nexttime when we continue talking
about this topic.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah, I agree, really interesting talking today with
you about island language, soanyway.
So thank you all for listeningto this episode of Back to
Basics on the Business Edge,brought to you by Feliciano
School of Business at MontclairState University.
We hope you enjoyed thispodcast and welcome any feedback
(29:55):
you have for us, includingsuggestions for future topics.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
George, the feeling is mutual, man.
I really did enjoy this.
We went back down memory lane,brought up some old stories that
we've had, but thank you andthank you all for listening and
we will see you next time on theBack to Basics podcast.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Thanks Mo, thank you, see you next time.
Bye, take care.
Hello everybody, welcome back to Back to Basics.
I am Moe Hussini and I am herewith my dear friend, george
Elias.
Welcome, george, to the podcast.
As always, how are you doing,buddy?
How are you Doing great.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Moe, I really enjoy doing these podcasts with you.
Let me just start out by sayingthat I just when you say
something.
I just noticed our last podcasthad been when it's raining
outside.
So I think there's a pattern.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Is it raining, though ?
Because I'm in my office, Ihaven't even looked outside.
My curtains are drawn.
Is it raining?
I've been here for like fivehours.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
It's raining for me.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
That's spooky.
It's almost Halloween too, sonow that's interesting.
I didn't even notice.
Who knows, maybe next timeit'll be snowing the way the
weather is going Like crazyweather, I know, I know.
Tell me, what do you want totalk about today?
What's on your mind?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
You know, moe, I've been really thinking about body
language recently and I thoughtthat that would be an
interesting topic for us.
Have you ever noticed that whensomebody walks into a room or
when you're first introduced tosomebody that you haven't met
before, you can immediatelyfigure out if that's somebody
(01:30):
that you like or dislike, or youfeel like they're a good person
to do business?
Have you ever had that sort ofsometimes you call it like
intuition or just like aninstant feeling about somebody?
Does that happen to you?
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Interesting you know what?
Yeah, no, no, it has.
It has happened, I think.
Let me put it to you this way,George yes, it happens.
I think as I have progressedthrough my career, I've been
able to maybe harness it orcontrol it or not let it impact
(02:08):
my decision more, but absolutelyI think it's there.
Yes, I think it happens.
Why do you feel it too?
Does it happen to you?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I've actually noticed it quite a bit and I agree that
I've noticed it more as I'vegotten along in my career and I
try not to pass a final judgment.
I try to slow down with thatsort of what do we call it
intuition and try to figure outmore about the person than just
(02:42):
the way they look or theypresent themselves.
I think in the business world,especially when you're thinking
about working with customers notall customers are like that and
it's sort of a scary thing tothink that your customers, or
the people that you want to dobusiness with you, are going to
(03:04):
judge you so quickly, perhapseven before you start to speak,
or present and it makes me thinkof two things.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
But even it's more critical when it happens in an
interview process and I think wetalked about it briefly many
episodes ago when it createsthis kind of like anchoring
effect where I shake your handsand the second I see you and I
meet you.
I've developed this kind oflike label that I'm going to
(03:35):
label you with and theneverything that happens
afterwards, afterwards, it'skind of like just a confirmation
to how I feel, no matter howgood you actually turn out to be
or how polite or how diplomatic, that's it.
I came up with this conclusionin my mind that no matter what
you do, it just anchors it moreand more in my mind.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
You know what I mean.
You know it's funny that youbring in confirmation bias, but
there's a lot of truth to that.
But once you've formed youropinion and I think it's
interesting that you brought itto even a handshake, which is, I
think, a further evolution ofbody language, which includes
(04:18):
you know, hopefully positivetouch right, you know you have a
nice, warm, firm handshake.
Hopefully you're looking theperson in the eye, smiling,
you're dressed for the interview, you look presentable, You're
smiling, you have a pleasantsmile on.
All those sorts of actions canhelp somebody form a positive
(04:44):
view of you, then from then onyou know things that you say.
If you help them with theirconfirmation bias, in a sense
you're on a really good trackfor that interview, aren't you?
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get your point 100%.
You know what?
Not to this.
Not to open this up to a wholeother discussion that could take
hours and hours and hours.
But back to the handshake.
What if you don't even want toshake someone's hand?
What if your culture, yourreligion, your background, your
upbringing, you know you're in acountry where opposite genders
(05:22):
do not shake hands?
And my point is, without evenanswering it, is that we should
really kind of look at thecombination of the cues all
together, right, like it's acombination of things the
culture, the background of theindividual.
Sometimes what we see has amuch, much deeper meaning or
(05:46):
unseen I don't know what's theword I'm looking for now but has
like an underlying.
You know, really, actors thatcould factor into how that
person is interacting with you.
So I think, yes, what we see,the handshaking, the hugging,
the smiling, the eye contact,that's what we see.
(06:07):
But there could be manytriggers behind the scenes that
lead to what it is that we seefrom the individual.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah, I agree with you.
It's almost difficult to talkabout body language and these
sort of triggers withoutbringing in gender and bias
feelings about that, ordifferences in genders in the
way that people tend to interact, or differences in cultures and
bias in the way people thinkabout it.
(06:38):
I mean, I think back to thefirst time I went to Shakespeare
with Hand in a business typesetting and she didn't raise her
hand to shake back and Iremember the feeling of, on my
hand part, a feeling ofawkwardness at first, until she
(07:04):
looked right at me and said I'msorry, I don't shake hands for
religious reasons.
And that actually turned around.
It was her demeanor and the wayshe said it for me defused the
situation with the explanation,where I no longer felt awkward,
that it was about me for somereason and it was just.
(07:25):
it is what it is and for me itwas an educational piece and
understanding her point of viewand where she was, and for me it
was like, oh, I just learnedsomething about her.
She was able to diffuse andhelp the situation in a very
calm, nice manner.
She was still looking pleasant,not, you know, disgusted or
(07:48):
something like that.
And that really actually helped,informing a very me having a
very positive viewpoint of her,and we ended up actually working
together in a very positivesense.
So I don't think that allbecause somebody doesn't shake
hands or doesn't do somethingfor cultural reasons, that
(08:10):
necessarily excludes them fromdoing business very, very
effectively.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Yes, and I think one.
I agree 100%, and I think oneof the takeaways from our
podcast today, or whenever weend this discussion after one or
many podcasts, one of thetakeaways that I'll bring up
from now is we shouldn't bequick to judge.
We shouldn't be quick to labelsomebody as nice guy, bad guy,
(08:36):
hostile guy, right, we shouldgive the benefit of the doubt to
all those things that we'vementioned in the last couple of
minutes, kind of like what youwent through, I went through it
and you know what.
You were fortunate that youwere with somebody that's
outgoing and confident enough toexplain the reason.
What if she was an introvert?
Or what if it was like such aquick situation where she didn't
(08:58):
get a chance to explain?
That would have been it.
You know what?
You would have labeled her asan unfriendly, whatever it is
that came through your mind.
I will not speak for you, butwhatever thoughts that would
have come through your mind,there's your anchor, right?
That would have been it.
So if you don't have anythingelse to comment, I'm gonna give
(09:19):
it back to you.
But why don't you eithercomment on what I said or let's
start with one.
Let's look at another attributeeye contact.
You wanna start with that.
You know like let's take itfrom the handshake, let's work
our way into another one.
What do you think about eyecontact?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yeah, so let me just comment on the handshake and the
culture aspect.
I think, unfortunately and I'malmost embarrassed to say it,
but unfortunately if she wasn'tso outgoing and maybe left it as
awkward, unfortunately I maynot have had such a positive
viewpoint of her and maybethere's a lesson in there, and I
(10:02):
hate to put the burden onsomebody that is in a culture
where there's handshakes orsomething.
I hate to put the burden onthem, but maybe if they know
that they're in a culture wherethere's things they can't
respond in the same way that Iguess how should I say?
(10:22):
Almost like tradition orsomething where people
traditionally shake hands inbusiness, they should somehow
rehearse or have something tosay like oh, I don't shake hands
for religious reasons, and mostpeople, most people are going
to be perfectly fine with that,just like she did with me, and I
(10:42):
think that it's a growthexperience for everybody, but
maybe somebody should, you know,have something to say about it,
right?
You know, I can't shake hands,you know, and just know that
it's okay to see that and,frankly, if the person is not
okay with that, that's somebodyyou don't want to do business
(11:04):
with anyway.
No, I agree.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
If someone's not tolerant enough to you or
adaptable enough to other pointsof view, I agree, I agree so
anything else around this pointI don't want to bring eyes, but
eyes are tremendously important,tremendously important and
(11:31):
they're important for business.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
They're actually very important If you're interested
in dating or courting somebody.
The way you look, whether youlook at them in their eyes or
not, you know this is a.
You know we're all human beings, but you know there's an
emotional, chemical reactioninside people when they're
looked at it in a pleasant way.
(11:53):
Now, you know, let's be, let'sall be careful with the eyes,
because you know you can look at, you know, let's say, somebody
that you're affection about orwant to date in some way, and
you're looking at them.
You know those eyes and howit's taken to be taken very
affectionately and draw thatperson in.
(12:14):
But if the person doesn't havegood feelings about you, it can
also be kind of creepy.
So, you know, I think thatthere's a proper use of eyes.
Don't overdo it.
If you're not getting the rightreaction, you know, don't think
that you can have, we can alljust stare, just stare in
contest until you're going towin it, because that's that's
not what it is.
But you know, when somebody istalking to you and they make
(12:39):
good, positive eye contact, itfeels good.
They're paying attention to you, they're interested in you.
You know this.
This is one of the reasons whyI've encouraged people to not do
phone or Zoom interviews whenbeing in person is is an option.
(13:00):
And if you're going to do a Zoomif you're going to do Zoom for
business, do things that as muchas possible to look in the
camera.
Have your camera on, look inthe camera, try to look at the
person when they're talking,because when you, when you look
distracted and it's harder overZoom, when you look distracted,
you're looking away People don'tmake the same connection and
(13:23):
ultimately that does that reallydoes affect your, your business
and your ability to move on tofurther stages in the interview
process.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
So let me pose it to you as a question Sustained eye
contact You're talking tosomebody and they have sustained
eye contact with you.
What does that signify to you?
Speaker 2 (13:48):
What would that tell?
Speaker 1 (13:49):
you, yeah, yeah, what ?
What is it to you?
Speaker 2 (13:53):
It, it.
To me, it means that they'reinterested in me, they're,
they're engaged, they're they'relistening, they, they, they
find me pleasant in some way.
It makes a huge difference, letme, let me just explain
something that I've, that I'veobserved, and you tell me if you
, if you've, observed this right.
Let's say there's a child, asmall child you know, I will
(14:20):
call him little Jimmy maybethree or four years old, right
Walks into the room with a bunchof adults.
Okay, yes.
One of the young ladies noticesthis this child walking through
with adults.
What does she do?
She's a typical thing that ayoung woman would do.
She will get down on thatchild's level.
(14:42):
Look him in the eyes, Right,Look in the eyes and, with a
very pleasant voice, oh, Jimmy,look at what you're doing.
Oh, you're here and she she'sgoing to be making direct eye
contact right into Jimmy andshe's going to be, you know,
carrying him with a hug andbringing him back to the room
(15:04):
for him to play right or orwhatever it's next.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yes, okay, yes.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
And, and you know I hate to say it, but we're all,
we all have that little kid inus still, even as adults, we all
have that, that little kid inus and we all want people to get
onto our level, to make eyecontact to, to talk pleasantly,
embrace us, even if it's notphysical, but embrace us in the
(15:29):
conversation or, you know, inthe presence, and that makes us
feel good, right.
And I'm just bringing that upbecause you know that's how we
grew up, you know, as childrenbeing treated and that's the way
we even want to be treated asadults.
And in the business worldthere's, you know,
appropriateness around thatthere's an appropriate way of
(15:51):
being greeted, of being lookedat and being talked to, and when
you're talked in thatappropriate, you know,
appropriately loving way, youcan't help but respond.
Little Jimmy felt good in thatmoment, Right.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
And and little Mo wants to feel good inside when,
when coming in doing business,and so does little.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
George, here no I agree with you, yes, and I think
I know I can think of somepeople that I have known that on
a social and professional level.
Oh, how to give that?
You know it's a mix ofaffection, interest, respect,
(16:35):
attention.
When they talk to somebody, youcan see the sincerity in their
eye.
It reflects that affection, theinterest you know.
They make you feel you'reimportant, they make you feel
valued.
I think it's a talent that somepeople are born with or that
they acquire, or it's part oftheir personality that they do
(16:56):
bring out or they do seek thatlittle Jimmy.
And then the person they'retalking to, and they know how to
feed it, they know how to makea connection through it right,
they know how to connect withthat person through that
approach that you're talkingabout.
I agree, I think if we all havethat in us and some people know
(17:17):
how to bring it out and knowhow to deal and communicate with
it, connect with it on manydifferent levels depending on
the nature of the interaction,now, no, go ahead.
What were you going to?
Speaker 2 (17:33):
say you know I, you know you said something, and
I'll just point out that I sortof disagree a little bit, only
that you said that it's likethey're born with it, and I do
think some people are much, arenaturally outgoing and have the
(17:53):
ability to do it.
But I also believe that thislevel of interaction is
trainable and I believe that forsomebody who's, let's say, is
just not good at making eyecontact, I think with working
with them and teaching them howto userize and to practice, you
(18:15):
know, talk to themselves in themirror, look at the.
Look at themselves in themirror.
When you're talking hey, ifyou're having a problem talking
to somebody, look in the eye.
You know.
Look at their forehead, lookbetween their eyes.
You know, start getting, startgetting that, I think.
I think there's it's trainable,I think, telling somebody to
use their eyes like they'resticky eyes.
(18:38):
So when you look at somebody,you know, look at them like
they're a little sticky and whenyou have to look away, look
away almost like you'rereluctant to look away, but you
have to, right.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
People pick.
You know when they're told andyou're trained, you can actually
break down the way you use youreyes.
It you know, even if you're notgood.
I think it's trainable.
So I the reason why I bringthis up is for the listeners.
I don't want them to feel like,if they're just not good at it,
there's nothing they can do.
There's a lot that you can doand the more you train, the more
(19:15):
you work at it, the better youget at it.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
I get your point.
It's a valid point.
The reason I said it the way Isaid it is because I believe
myself, anybody around me orlike us in general, our
tendencies that we talked about,I think, in one of our first
episodes, or what makes us, ispart hereditary, part through
our experience after we cross,maybe like the 18 year old age,
(19:42):
and part of it is through ourrole model, like how we see
people behave and act.
But I do believe thateverything you said is correct.
But I do believe it's kind oflike what I think about when you
say what you just said.
Absolutely Everybody should tryto train and improve and explore
and discover new things in them.
But I believe that to someextent it's going to kind of be
(20:04):
an introvert.
Let me take and teach you to begood at public speaking.
You know there's some things,yes, where we can learn and
train and practice.
Some we cannot.
But your point is valid thatthere are in between.
You know, even if I know thatI'm really really uncomfortable
dealing with people I'm reallybad at even shaking hands or
(20:25):
connecting, making eye contact Ishould, like you said, train,
try to practice and try to applyit to some extent, right.
So I agree that yes, no matterwhat, we should give it a try
and try to learn to do it.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
I mean, I guess I feel as though I agree with you,
you know with the, you knowthere's like a there's a nature
aspect of it, and you knowpeople having them, whether
they're introvert or extroverts.
But I think even with thatthere's ways of becoming better
and trainable, right?
I think that?
(21:08):
you know, and that's where I'mat, and I know that I was
fortunate with with, forinstance, my father, who was a
businessman, so I you know, hebrought me around at a very
young age where he was doingbusiness, so I got to see him
and emulate him and, you know,learn about that.
(21:28):
And I can also tell you that Iused to be part of a of a group
in high school that actuallycompeted doing things like
interviews, and I and I wascoached in in my teams on, you
know, posture and eye contactand what to do with your hands
and smiling and things like thisand all these things make a
(21:52):
huge difference.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Some people do it naturally Other people have to
be told.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Yes, you know.
And just one last thing thatthat I'll say about it.
You know, because you'retalking about posture and things
, I know that the military takesin and I know we've talked
about military a lot.
They taken people that are 17,18 years old and they teach them
how to stand up straight.
You know how to look, how to,how to, how to look forward, how
(22:19):
to articulate and talk, and youknow you can instantly see
somebody that's had thatmilitary type training in how to
present and I, because I see itall the time, you know I'm like
, oh, that person's the militaryof the way they stand.
You know, you're 17, 18 yearsold, you're still moldable,
you're still able to learn thesethings, and maybe you you won't
(22:42):
be that natural best at them,but you can learn enough where
you can turn it on and make itwork for you.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
I agree, I agree, and I mean, since you did, I
remember back God.
When was it?
Maybe 10, 11 years ago?
I remember me I went by yourdad's work.
I remember who took me out forlunch with him and a bunch of
his colleagues.
Remember when he was likehelping me learn some things and
like that new project I wasworking on with steel and
(23:10):
manufacturing and stuff.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
And I remember he took me out for lunch, remember?
Speaker 1 (23:14):
And yeah, we were sitting about seven of us and he
was the the heart of thediscussion and I see well, you
know what you're talking aboutnow.
He was the one connectingeverybody with everybody,
starting the conversations,creating that lively atmosphere,
and there were other guyssitting there that they needed
that nudge and that push, thatpush which, back to your point,
(23:37):
there are people that arenatural at it and some people
that are uncomfortable with it.
There are some people thatdon't like it, but, no matter
what, it is part of our dailylives and that we should
practice it and train on it tosome extent, as much as we can.
Agreed Um the rest of the face,all right, forget the eyes.
(24:00):
Facial expressions what, whatabout facial expression?
Expressive facial expressions?
What would they indicate?
Oh boy, mom, this is something,yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
I'm terrible at this because you know me you know me,
my face tells people exactlywhat I'm thinking.
There is no hiding, so I know,I know.
You know, so I'm happy.
If I'm feeling good aboutsomething, you can see it on my
face, and if I'm not, you cansee it on my face.
(24:38):
So I know that and I think youknow that.
People that know me know that.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
So other people are very are very good at managing
their facial expression.
They're very good at doing itand I think it's an asset in
business that, if you allow, Letme interrupt you for a second.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Hold on hold on hold on Cause you're saying something
I actually before.
We would be one and we forget,and I hope I didn't make some
trouble.
Sorry, but I consider actuallythe fact that you're facing.
I don't remember from thenineties when we would be going
at sitting up for druggers or goto the movies in the car and
you would have an argument withsomebody.
I think the fact that you showwhat you feel is a form of
(25:22):
sincerity.
It's actually you know, thefact that you're upfront and
you're honest about how you feel.
You know, you believe you havea point in your mind.
You're genuine and honest aboutit and it's sincere, it's
commendable and respectable thatyou actually express it.
Anyway, I just wanted tomention that because actually I
always think that that'sactually a good thing in you
(25:42):
that you don't sugarcoat things.
You know what you feel, youropinion about something you say,
you're sincere about it, you'rerespectable, diplomatic, but
you voice your opinion, voiceyour personality.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Well, thanks for saying that, Mo, and I really
appreciate that.
I feel those are a lot ofcompliments, right yeah?
Speaker 1 (26:03):
I think.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
What I mean by that is so, because my faith betrays
my feelings so well it justbubbles out of me.
I guess what likes and dislikes, and whether I agree or
disagree.
You can see it all over my face.
(26:26):
I'd be the worst poker playerin the world, right.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Everybody would know what hand I have.
That's why I don't think poker.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
But sometimes in business you need to have a
poker face, and that's what Imean.
You're right, you're right, andthat's what I'm saying.
I know I'm not good at it.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Right.
If somebody gives me a greatoffer, the smile is going to be
ear to ear.
I'm like I just got a greatoffer.
Other people who have a pokerface might be able to even
negotiate a better deal right.
And say, just because of the waythey can manage your facial
expressions and make the mostout of the business for that
(27:09):
right.
Or sometimes being in a veryupsetting situation and exuding
calm and even having your facialexpressions show that you're
calm, even when inside you'refreaking out a little bit.
People that can do that canlead people through a really
difficult situation.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
So I really think me.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
I have to make my inside calm.
I can't just have my face becalm, I literally have to calm
myself down for me to exude calm.
I know that about me and I haveto manage my feelings more than
my face, or maybe other peoplecan manage their face despite
their feelings.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Interesting.
That's a really interestingpoint.
For the sake of time I knowwe're almost out Remember that
point that you just mentionedabout controlling the inside to
control the outside, versusbeing able to disconnect both.
We should talk about that onemore, because I really think
it's an interesting point.
(28:12):
I think our differentpersonalities may approach that
in different ways, so why don'twe?
Are you okay if we start thenext episode?
We're going to continue ourdiscussion about body language,
facial expressions, but let'sbring that point up and start
from there.
What do you say?
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Yeah, I think that's really interesting and I'd like
to hear how you feel if there'sa cultural aspect to that as
well.
I'm going to think about it?
Because me personally, I thinkI've noticed, and again, I'm not
inside everybody, so I don'tknow.
But I think I've noticed thatthere are certain cultures that
(28:53):
are much better at having anoutside presentation versus what
their inside is doing when someother cultures.
There isn't as much of anemphasis on being able to do
that, so I'm curious how youfeel about that I'm going to
brainstorm on it between now andour next episode, and we'll
(29:15):
definitely talk more about it.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
George, let's do that .
Sounds good to me.
All right, man.
So this was really interesting.
I mean, like I said, we'regoing to take this to the next.
Continue the discussion nexttime when we continue talking
about this topic.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah, I agree, really interesting talking today with
you about island language, soanyway.
So thank you all for listeningto this episode of Back to
Basics on the Business Edge,brought to you by Feliciano
School of Business at MontclairState University.
We hope you enjoyed thispodcast and welcome any feedback
(29:55):
you have for us, includingsuggestions for future topics.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
George, the feeling is mutual, man.
I really did enjoy this.
We went back down memory lane,brought up some old stories that
we've had, but thank you andthank you all for listening and
we will see you next time on theBack to Basics podcast.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Thanks Mo, thank you, see you next time.
Bye, take care.
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