January 2, 2024 • 32 mins
Feliciano School of Business faculty members in the department of Information Management and Business Analytics, Dr. Mahmoud ElHussini and Dr. George Elias discuss issues and problems being faced by business professionals. On this podcast, they again discuss what your body language says about you. Dr. Moe and Dr. George breakdown issues and problems being encountered by entrepreneurs, executives, and all levels of managers.
Co-Hosts Background:
Mahmoud (Moe) Elhussini, MS, MBA, DBA, is an Instructor Specialist at Montclair State University. He is also the president and founder of The Growth Coach Allentown - Somerville. A consulting and business coaching company. Moe has worked in data & operations management for over a decade. He then switched to business consulting, helping companies build ERP and customer interface systems. After that he transitioned into international business development, helping companies manage their internal organic growth or through mergers and strategic alliances. Moe has published a couple of handbooks, one on emotional intelligence and another on servant leadership. He is currently working on a third that revolves around overcoming sales objections. Moe has a BA in Biology from Rutgers University, an MBA in Global Management, and MS in Information Management, and a DBA in Geopolitics and Strategy. At Montclair University, Moe is part of the Information Management and Business Analytics Department. He teaches Business Decision Making, Operations Management, and Statistics in Business courses.
George Elias, Ph.D., PMP is Chief Systems Engineer for Space and Airborne Systems leading initiatives in integrated spectrum management and mission avionics at L3Harris Technologies. Additionally, Dr. Elias is as an adjunct professor at Montclair State University’s department of information management & business analytics where he teaches business operations and statistics. Dr. Elias is experienced in leading the development and production of complex hardware and software system solutions including: electronic warfare systems, communication systems, and space systems. Previously, Dr. Elias served as the Director of Capture Excellence & Business Development Operations for the Electronic Warfare Sector. As an L3Harris Technologies Certified Enterprise Capture Lead, Dr. Elias was responsible for directing large, complex pursuits across the enterprise. In addition to systems engineering and business development, Dr. Elias has held roles in finance, quality assurance, operations/manufacturing, modeling and simulation, project engineering, program management, and Internal Research and Development (IRAD). Dr. Elias has a Doctorate in Systems Engineering, a Masters Certificate in Project Management, and a Masters in Computer Science from Stevens Institute of Technology. Additionally, Dr. Elias has a Bachelors in Computer Information Systems from Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey & New Jersey Institute of Technology. Finally, Dr. Elias has a Mini-MBA from Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello everybody.
I hope everyone is doing well.
Welcome back to Back to Basics.
I am Maui Hussini and I am herewith my dear, dear friend,
george Elias.
Welcome back, mr George.
How?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
are you doing, doing well, maui?
Good to see you.
It's a nice sunny day.
I've been rainy.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
I was hoping there wasn't a correlation between our
podcast and rainy days.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I'm glad the pattern is broken, but it is awfully
cold.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
It started to get cold towards the end of the
semester.
Here I know the fall slew bythe semester.
It always does.
I have no idea why, but I can'tbelieve we were already in
November.
I'm talking to the studentsabout finals.
I'm talking to the studentsabout finals.
You know term papers?
Yeah, it's crazy, george.
(01:00):
Do you remember?
I know last time we weretalking about body language and
facial expressions and suchposture, hands and so on when
did we leave off?
I know it was an interestingdiscussion, but we had to end it
.
Do you remember what was the?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
last point we were discussing.
I don't remember, I don'tremember, I don't remember.
If I recall the lastconversation we had, we were
talking about facial expressionsand I was relating my own
personal experience on how myfacial expressions are connected
(01:38):
to my emotions and in order forme to control my facial
expressions, I in my ownpersonal experience.
I just wanted to throw out aquestion to you that you said
you might think about.
I asked if there's any culturalaspects to that.
You know the strong connectionbetween emotions and facial
expressions yes, I remember.
I remember.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Yeah, keep going, keep going, yes, keep going
Sorry.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, and just to throw out another one you know
just in terms of you know facialexpressions and culture and
whether they're totallyuniversal or certain cultures
may use them.
You know certain expressionsdifferently, things like that.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Now I remember Good point what do you?
Are you good if we take, like,start from that point?
Use that as our starting pointtoday, because I did think about
that question over the week.
You're good with that?
Shall, we do that?
So we'll continue from here.
Sure, let's go for it.
Do you know what I thoughtabout?
Yes, I think there is arelationship, to answer your
(02:40):
question, between your beliefs,your culture.
I don't want to go as far asreligion maybe, yes, religion,
but let's just, we don't want toopen up the conversation too
deep or too wide.
Let's focus on culture, right?
I do strongly believe thatthere is a relationship between
your facial expression andculture, your cultural
(03:01):
background.
And to give us a point ofreference, a starting point,
call it whatever you want.
I thought about cognitivedissonance, right, and for some
of the listeners that don't knowwhat that means, this was a
concept theory.
They came about in the 50s, Ithink, 1950s.
Simply put, it talks aboutsomething consistency that could
(03:24):
happen between what we believe,what's in our head and our
actions.
Meaning, george tells me onething inside of me inside of me,
it's pissing me off, it'supsetting me, it's stressing me
out, I'm turmoil inside my head,but my actions reflect someone
that is happy, smiling, relaxed,agreeable, right?
(03:48):
So there's a disconnect betweenwhat goes on in my head and
what I'm actually doing and thatI think creates some discomfort
in some people, right, sometension, when they do feel that
disconnect between both.
(04:09):
Some people and I'm going to usethis as a starting point,
george, and you can share yourthoughts I think some people may
deal with this by trying toacquire some information.
So you said something to methat triggered that kind of
reaction, or I'm thinking onething, that I'm acting in
(04:29):
another way.
I may seek to ask you for somemore info, to try to agree with
you, to eliminate that tensionor discomfort, or I might try to
minimize the impact of thatinconsistency or gap that's in
my mind so that I can kind oflike relax myself a little bit.
(04:51):
Your thoughts, I'll give itback to you before I continue
and go into culture and moredetail.
What do you want to add to whatI said?
Speaker 2 (05:02):
I'm still stuck on the big terms of cognitive
dissonance that you brought intoour back to basics conversation
here.
So so, so trying to.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
I said something that you don't know where you can
talk about.
That's the first in 35 years.
Wow, let me say where themoment go ahead.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
So I'm just trying to connect it a little bit to the,
the facial expression.
So are you saying that you're?
You're in a situation, let'ssay, where you're in polite
company, that you know, you knowthat you need to smile and look
present, but something is goingon that is not making you happy
(05:45):
, right Is that you know?
And so, on the inside, you'refeeling like because I think
we've all been there right whereyou're forced to try to look
pleasant, you're forced to tryto put that, that grin and bear
it per se, maybe it's done.
So I'll tell you.
My story is, you know, myparents would take me around
(06:06):
everywhere, even to, you know,their friends houses, and we
were expected to sit in thequarter and look pleasant, or
you know, and not haveentertainment per se.
So as kids, we had to learn howto try to behave and look
pleasant, even though we weremildly being tortured.
Be completely bored out of hermind, right.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
So is that is?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
that is that the type of that literally torture, of
just saying, as kids, you'reterrible.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
So I mean, is that, is that the scenario that we're
talking about, where you'reforced to try to act a certain
way, where inside yourcompletely feeling something
else?
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yes, that's actually an example.
That's definitely an exampleand I could give you.
I'll give you another exampleto write to try to give you a
better idea what I'm talkingabout.
Let me bring in culture.
Some cultures prefer what wewould call direct communication,
just being blunt, upfront aboutwhat you're feeling.
(07:11):
Some would prefer an indirectkind of discussion, right where
you're not really.
I'm not telling you, george,listen, you screwed this up.
You need to fix this ASAP.
It's your fault that thishappened.
Versus some people may preferto have an indirect type of
dialogue.
You know how do you feel aboutand you do this a lot.
(07:32):
I noticed when we talk withpeople, you try to be very
diplomatic, saying you know, howdo you feel if we had done this
?
Instead of that, how do youfeel if we had taken this
approach, instead of saying youknow what?
You did this wrong?
So picture this, george right,me and you different beliefs in
our mind.
Let's say I believe in the, inthe direct and blunt right and
(07:54):
you favored this is justhypothetically speaking.
You favor the indirect approach.
Now I'm standing with you infront of five people that we
were doing something with aproject, working on something
would and I take you by surprise.
Those people had done somethingwrong.
I take you by total surpriseand I just confront them
(08:15):
straight up, tell them you guysmess this up.
You should have done this, this, this, this, this, before we
even say hello.
Right, which is not theapproach that you would have
wanted to take.
So now you're kind of like stuckin the middle between Do I go
along with Moe and support himand back up his line of
discussion, or do I stop Moe andrestart, hit a repo like a
(08:36):
reset button and say, moe, no,wait a second, let's take this
in a different way.
Do you know what I mean, george?
So, like, you're kind of likein that situation where inside
your head You're thinking thatthis whole approach is wrong and
should have been done in adifferent way.
But yet now that I started thisline of discussion and the
whole defensive mechanisms arekicking in and you know being on
(08:58):
attack and on the defensive, wehave no choice but to join in
with me to continue thediscussion with those five
people.
So you will be taking on someactivity which you don't really
believe was the right approachfrom the beginning.
But now you're kind of like,for whatever reason, you feel
bad for me.
You don't want to embarrass me.
(09:18):
You kind of you know like youfeel, like it's too late,
whatever your reasoning is, butnow you're acting in a way
that's different from what wasin your mind.
So does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah, I do and I think that there's so, just to
be cleanly blunt about that, Itry to avoid those scenarios.
Just me personally, I know yeah.
Because, if I think there's achance in a business sense, if
(09:51):
there's a chance of thathappening, I do pre-briefs about
the approach.
I try to get us to all agree onhow, like, let's say, we're
going into a meeting and webelieve, regardless if they're a
customer or some contractor orsomething of that nature if we
believe that we've been wrongedin some way, we try to agree on
(10:13):
the approach, right, who's goingto be the main speaker, who's
going to be supported?
So, in a business sense, we dothat with pre-meeting planning,
right.
To avoid that, because I'vebeen in those scenarios and for
me personally they've usuallynot ended very well.
I'll tell you one story.
(10:36):
We had a customer that wassaying things that just plain
weren't true Objectively.
It was just not true, right.
So the leader of the meetingand I'll try to keep names out
of it to not embarrass people,the names of the meeting.
(11:00):
Now, the leader of the meetingwas my supervisor, my boss, okay
.
And he decided to directly tellthe customer that they were a
liar.
They actually called them aliar and that made me very, very
(11:20):
uncomfortable, and normally Iwould have do that.
But I saw the customer was verytaken aback and very upset by
that comment and I decided tostep in.
You know, in hindsight maybenot the best thing to do, but I
decided to step in and I saidhey, you know, I'm not sure if
(11:41):
they're a liar.
I can say for sure that I don'tthink what they're saying is
factually accurate.
Maybe we should ask why they'resaying this, given that it's
not factually accurate, andpoint out you know what the
facts are.
You know, maybe they're justmistaken, right?
Anyway, I nearly got thrown outof the room.
(12:04):
It was very nasty actually, wow, and a very embarrassing
scenario.
I was embarrassed personally,but I was also embarrassed for
my supervisor and the way he wasacting.
I'm still not sure if what I didwas right or wrong.
But I felt as though pointingout you know that you don't just
(12:25):
flat out call your customer aliar, which was probably the
right thing to do.
But, like for those reasons,you know the way I felt I had to
act on it and that's the way Ifelt at the time.
So I try to avoid cognitivedissonance, if that's what you
call it.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yes, I'll grin and try to look pleasant and play
company, even if I don't likethat, but I'm probably going to
try to leave whenever I canwithout looking to impolite.
So you're bringing up thecognitive dissonance and it's
been interesting.
But how does that affectbusiness situations?
You know, are you saying it,for instance, like in
(13:09):
negotiations?
You might want to poke yourface on it, even though you
don't like their offer.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
I wasn't thinking about that example, but I'll
give you an example that has todo with negotiations.
But let me just do a quickcomment about what you just said
.
I think the example that yougave is a mix between your
beliefs and what you believe youshould do and the fact that
you're seeking more informationto diffuse or dilute that
(13:36):
cognitive dissonance.
You get what I mean.
Like, remember what I saidearlier, that sometimes you seek
affirmation.
That's exactly it.
You're trying to do the proper,right thing to get some
information to either agree withwhat your boss is saying to
some extent right, or to showhim in a professional way that
you know what.
No, let's give them a chance.
(13:56):
There's just misunderstanding.
But let me go back to yourquestion Negotiating again, me
and you and I'm going to makemyself be the bad guy again.
Let's say me and you aresitting together and we're
negotiating with a client rightNow.
We're meeting with somebody ina country, right.
(14:18):
So to bring in that culturalaspect of it, we're quote
unquote gifting, not bribing,but gifting is okay.
So you see me sitting there andI know, based upon the beliefs
of the customs of that culturethat we're in, it's okay to take
out a Rolex watch and a boxwrapped up in a nice bow, nice
(14:39):
gift trap, and I give it to thehead of operations of the
company procurement that we wantto work with.
I'm like, oh, here's a nicelittle gesture that we just want
to thank you for You're takingthe time to meet with us.
Do you see what I mean, george?
Right.
So you're sitting there lookingat it.
You're blown away that I justbroke an ethical code where I'm,
in your mind, bribing somebody,but even though in that country
(15:00):
that's actually considered, soto speak, a gift.
Now if we come back here to theUS and our bosses, bosses,
bosses find out that I did this,I'll be kicked out, just like
you almost did in that meetingthat you were at right Because I
did a big, big no, no, but overthere it's okay.
So now you're sitting again inthat dilemma.
Your beliefs, your background,is very different from the
(15:24):
beliefs and the customs of thecountry that we're in, right,
cognitive descendants, again,right.
So that starts a whole kind ofconflicting view between what I
did and what you believed tohave happened, where there
shouldn't have been a gift likethis given at all because it's
unethical even though it's notillegal, but it's unethical.
(15:46):
I shouldn't have done that.
So that triggers you know howdo you act on the outside versus
how you believe in the outside.
So that's an example that comesright to my mind, because I
know this happens a lot and Iheard about it in a lot of
interactions where the twodiffering culture views between
two countries that are workingtogether can come into play.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, so that situation that you bring up, it
would be a one that I would havesome major cognitive dissidents
.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
I know, I know.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
So so you bring up an interesting, because I do think
, I do think you know, we'reworking for a US firm where
we're American, we're bound byUS laws and in the United States
, bribing or you know that's,those are that's corruption and
that's that's illegal right,exactly, you literally can't do
(16:40):
that.
So so you put me into a dilemmawhere I would so obligated to
report it.
And even though you're you'remy friend, you know, and I and I
, I feel a lot of affection foryou.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
You know that that would be a big, big problem for
me, Right?
So you know, I I'm just lookingat your face now and I know
you're looking at it like I knowthat's exactly what you would
do, but and that's why I wantedto bring something up to an
extreme.
But that's exactly.
But let me ask you, orsomething Okay, what about if we
?
You know we want to please thatclient, right, we want to
(17:18):
obviously get the contract, sowe take him out to dinner.
If we take him out to dinner,is that long?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
It depends to what level.
So I'll just tell you where Iwork.
We'd have to report that, right, and we'd have to talk about
the LB, like, like what waseaten?
Was there alcohol involved?
Who attended?
So there's, we would have thatscrutiny.
You know, for my day job right,my day job would scrutinize
(17:49):
that we'd have to report it andideally we'd get permission
ahead of time on the levels andthe scenario and what to do
about that.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
So the permission, where do you draw the line?
Meaning, I went to a dinner onetime at a Christmas time with a
company back in the 2000s, whenI was my corporate life, and
they bought.
We were in Bridgewater, newJersey, and they bought an $8000
bottle of wine.
Right, extreme, okay.
What about if it was a thousand?
What if it was $2,000 bottle ofwine?
(18:18):
What if it was a $500, $800.
You get my point right.
Where does that cognitivedissonance kick in for people?
And I'm just using an example.
I know we can take this in amillion different ways, but
where does it become?
Where, oh wow, those people arereally spoiling me, they're
really taking good care of me.
Versus, don't you dare spendmore than X amount on something
(18:42):
to please your or schmooze withyour client?
What do you draw that line?
Or how do you think about?
What parameters do you thinkare that in your mind to decide
to say you know what.
We're only going to go up to Xamount of dollars per
transaction, per meal, perdinner, per whatever, per gift.
What do we think about?
Yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
So I I'll say that, yeah, that that's a hard one
without, yeah right.
And I would say that there'sclear lines where you know
you're talking about thoseextravagant bottles of wine and
some other things.
So you know there's a lot offavors and gifts that go on
where I can tell you, if you'redoing business with, let's say,
(19:27):
the government that, that thoseare like immediate red flags,
right, huge red flag.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Yeah, that you can do .
Speaker 2 (19:35):
I would say in certain corporate scenarios.
Some of that I still think athousand dollar bottle wine is,
it is somehow a little crazy.
But I I do know that Some ofthose things are a little bit
more expected right in the waythat business and I don't think
(19:55):
it's all wrong.
I I've I've been in the in thecorporate business of business
world before and some of thoseinteractions system, those
dinners, are important ways thatyou build relationships with
clients and the way you buildrapport that you get on a common
line of bearing.
So I don't think having dinnerwith clients or customers is a
(20:18):
problem.
I do.
I do think that if it gets tothe point where you're doing
special favors and bribing anddoing you know business in a way
that you wouldn't do, there'ssomething wrong with that
scenario for sure.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Okay, okay, and I know we can spend hours talking
about this number of differentscenarios, meaning if you're
selling a printer to that clientversus if you're selling them a
bowling plane, right like,depending on the contract and
how much you're getting.
I understand, and but let melet me do this, if it's okay
with you.
Let's switch to anotherdimension and I'll give another
example about the triggercognitive distance and I'll be
(20:55):
based upon cultural views powerdistance.
How much do I accept higherauthority based upon my boss,
the power that, or the authoritythat my boss has or that my
boss's boss may have over me?
What level of acceptance andobedience do I have based upon
(21:19):
that?
So, in some cultures that arepretty authoritarian in their
business practices, it's verynormal and I've seen this.
Honestly, I'm going to use avery, very, very extreme example
.
In retail I was being with aclient, one of his sales reps in
the business, and it was kindof like a warehouse.
That a mistake.
(21:40):
He slapped him on the face andit was.
The guy turned around and saidsorry, boss, I'm sorry about
that, and he walked away andcontinued his work.
He slapped him.
The first thing that came to mymind right?
What if his wife was there?
What if his kid was there?
Would he still have slapped him?
What if, what if, what if, whatif you got the idea right?
(22:00):
Like a million questions swirlthrough my mind.
But all I could do?
I stood back.
I was 100% neutral, didn'tcomment in any way about what I
saw.
I'm just continued ourdiscussion.
You know about what I was therefor.
But that to me, right, cognitivedissonance.
My whole view of that managerafter he did that slap changed
(22:26):
and I was thinking to myselfshould it have changed?
Should I stay the same way?
I mean in this country, nowthat I spent months there.
So it happened by him, byothers, by others, by others,
and it's a norm you dropsomething, you get physically
punished for it, you messsomething up.
It's not like they're walkingaround and stacking each other,
but I'm saying it happens right.
(22:46):
So that opened up my mind to awhole kind of thinking, way of
thinking when I'm dealing withpeople from cultures that have a
whole different idea of power,distance.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, so you know, it's that, that's that's
prominent about.
Like, the physical nature ofthat, of that culture, is kind
of blowing my mind and I don'twant to derail the whole
conversation about the what, if,what, what would I do?
Speaker 1 (23:20):
in that scenario.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
But that that was terribly that was terribly
uncomfortable for me that that'snot and what I do a lot of
international business and thisis what what I'll say.
I'll get to you know, the powerdistance in a second majority
of the interactions that I haveare in the nuance and, for
(23:44):
instance, some certain cultureswill be more forthcoming, like
your previous examples andothers.
Some are more correct thanothers and sometimes I need to
listen and watch that culture orthat person in that culture
more closely to try to get theirmeaning.
But, for instance, if they'renot as direct as the US culture,
I really try to examine theirwords and try to understand what
(24:07):
they're saying and ask morefollow up questions because I
want to make sure that I reallycaptured, whether they like it
or not.
Are they just telling me thatit's?
Oh, it's okay when they'resaying this thing is horrible,
right, that's?
what we mean In the powerdistance, you know.
Let me ask you if this is agood, a good example.
(24:28):
Yes, so in my company we hadthe a lot of former military
people and, by the way, that'sfrom stay weekend.
So if you're a vet out there,thank you for your service.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Oh yeah, thank you for your service.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yes, yes, but if we have, you know, we have a lot of
vets, a lot of people in themilitary in my company and
oftentimes I find that they'revery much in a higher they, they
, I think because of themilitary training they really
respect leadership right.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
And that's saying that I don't, that I don't
respect.
But sometimes when I'm workingin a collaborative sense with
with some of these people,whether they're in business
development or engineering, youknow, I will be willing to
reinterpret.
you know executive leadershipdesires, right.
I'm willing to reinterpret itto something that makes sense,
(25:23):
something that I still, asthough, will you know, come down
to me and and they're not there, they're very much into.
No, the authority, the power,said that I have to follow it to
the letter.
And yeah, my and my experiencesit doesn't make sense.
I have to tell the executivewhat they're saying doesn't make
sense.
(25:43):
I have to follow up because thisdoesn't make sense, or I will
find a way for it to make senseand implement their desires in
in a sensible manner.
Right, does that make?
Does that?
Does that?
Speaker 1 (25:56):
power distance and and and see.
So you're saying you would askquestions to get some
clarification right, like thegist of it is that right, but
what, but what, what, what?
If you were in the military,would you still ask why?
Or would you just go and do it?
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Um, it depends, so I'll, and I'll tell you why it
depends, right?
So I I feel as though whenyou're in the military and this
is just I'll just tell you theway I am in the military- so, um
, if, if you're, if you're in a,let's say, uh, life and death
situation and you are getting anorder that totally doesn't make
(26:42):
sense, right, you should, Ibelieve, ask them to repeat the
order.
Right, please repeat that order, please.
You know, please confirm,confirm this that you're
requesting this.
I think asking for confirmationmakes sense.
Uh, now, in the military, ifyou're in operations and you're
(27:03):
being told you know specificdirection, it's set up in in
such a way where you have to dothat right, because you not
acting in a timely manner couldmean life and death in a bad way
for for the people you'resupporting.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
So, yeah, I would do it right.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
But, but, but I would probably ask for clarification.
If I was in a military scenarioand it was not a life and death
, let's say combat scenario, I Imight in a nice way privately
challenge my, my, my supervisorand say look, this is, this is
what I'm seeing here.
I bring into this privately, ofcourse, you know we'll, we'll
(27:43):
carry it out as as you requested, but here's, here's the way I
see it, and I you know, becauseI'm your subordinate.
I feel it's my obligation tomake you the best you can.
So here's here's what I say.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
You know it's a whole other.
It'll be a whole otherinteresting discussion.
Talk about the differencesbetween cognitive dissonance,
between the military world andthe corporate world.
And you know, to try to bringsomebody in that lives in that
world, to ask them, you knowbecause I think it would be a
whole different mentality howyou deal with that disconnect in
your mind, with your actions,especially if you're in the
(28:18):
middle of battle, right, youknow, I just thought of that now
while we were talking, but yeah, anyway, no, but we're not
going to get too deep into itnow, but yeah, so those are kind
of like the main things Ithought about.
Right, like power, distance,the communication style, the
culture accepting change.
(28:38):
Also right, like how, how muchdoes someone believe in change
versus stability and the fear ofthe unknown, asking somebody to
do something that they think isgoing to change their world?
I can think of you know several, many different examples where
a cultural aspect or backgroundwould trigger a cognitive
(29:03):
dissonance kind of reaction.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
So I just want to wrap it up and I know we're
running out of time and not tobring something up for that
minute.
But, but I was listening to abook, actually listening to an
audio book about how to talk topeople, and one of the issues
they brought up was being overthe phone.
Right, and being over the phone, yeah, it is a scenario where
(29:32):
facial expressions might notmatter, right, yeah.
But just thinking aboutcognitive dissonance and kind of
like the almost the opposite ofthat is true too.
And this this personrecommended that, in order to
sound pleasant on the phone, youwant to purposely smile when
(29:54):
answering the phone, even thoughthe person can't hear you.
Yeah, yeah and that and that andthat, like you can actually
drive your posture, your facialexpressions and the way you are
over the phone in a way topresent yourself vocally better.
And I just think that thatconcept of cognitive dissonance
and how maybe to avoid it bycontinuing to have good
(30:18):
expressions, good presentationskills, even when you're not
necessarily being seen.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
And you know it makes perfect sense, for the same
reason why people, sometimes,when they're arguing or fighting
over the phone, they're wavetheir fist, they shake their
hands, they, you know, like theyraise up, they swing their arms
.
I think in the same manner, itwould also help if you do the
opposite and try to smile, tryto, you know, feel that
confidence in your posture.
So, not a good point.
I agree with the 100%.
(30:46):
Now, this is.
This has been interesting.
I'm glad we bought this up andI think it was worth it to you
know, spend this time talkingabout cognitive dissonance.
It was an interesting point,like you know, bringing in that
part of the negotiation, thedecision making process.
It was worth the time, I think,to bring this point up so that,
(31:06):
you know, just open up people'sminds to it and have them think
about it more.
I'll definitely think about itmore later, you know, see what
other factors could influence it.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Yeah.
So what I'm thinking about ismaybe for next time let's talk
about body language in moreformal scenarios like
interviewing, presenting, andnot just kind of like an
everyday scenario, but maybe aspecial scenario where you might
need to get dressed up orpresent, or you know, presenting
(31:42):
is good.
It looks like you're puttingtogether.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Yeah, yeah, I like the sound of presenting because
I know we talked aboutinterviews before.
Definitely we can bring it upagain.
But yeah, let's bring in thepresentation angle.
I think that one would beuseful to a lot of people.
Sounds good, george, we'll dothat, buddy.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
So listen, let's wrap it up here, Mo and it's been a
great conversation, and so thankyou all for listening to this
episode of Back to Basics on theBusiness Edge, brought to you
by Feliciano School of Businessat Montclair State University.
We hope you enjoyed thispodcast and welcome any feedback
you have for us, includingsuggestions for future topics.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Thank you, george, and thank you to all of our
listeners, as always, and I lookforward to our next discussion.
Buddy, we'll continue thisdialogue.
See you next time.
I'm back to basic spot testeveryone, take care, awesome,
see you next time.
Hello everybody.
I hope everyone is doing well.
Welcome back to Back to Basics.
I am Maui Hussini and I am herewith my dear, dear friend,
george Elias.
Welcome back, mr George.
How?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
are you doing, doing well, maui?
Good to see you.
It's a nice sunny day.
I've been rainy.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
I was hoping there wasn't a correlation between our
podcast and rainy days.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I'm glad the pattern is broken, but it is awfully
cold.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
It started to get cold towards the end of the
semester.
Here I know the fall slew bythe semester.
It always does.
I have no idea why, but I can'tbelieve we were already in
November.
I'm talking to the studentsabout finals.
I'm talking to the studentsabout finals.
You know term papers?
Yeah, it's crazy, george.
(01:00):
Do you remember?
I know last time we weretalking about body language and
facial expressions and suchposture, hands and so on when
did we leave off?
I know it was an interestingdiscussion, but we had to end it
.
Do you remember what was the?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
last point we were discussing.
I don't remember, I don'tremember, I don't remember.
If I recall the lastconversation we had, we were
talking about facial expressionsand I was relating my own
personal experience on how myfacial expressions are connected
(01:38):
to my emotions and in order forme to control my facial
expressions, I in my ownpersonal experience.
I just wanted to throw out aquestion to you that you said
you might think about.
I asked if there's any culturalaspects to that.
You know the strong connectionbetween emotions and facial
expressions yes, I remember.
I remember.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Yeah, keep going, keep going, yes, keep going
Sorry.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, and just to throw out another one you know
just in terms of you know facialexpressions and culture and
whether they're totallyuniversal or certain cultures
may use them.
You know certain expressionsdifferently, things like that.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Now I remember Good point what do you?
Are you good if we take, like,start from that point?
Use that as our starting pointtoday, because I did think about
that question over the week.
You're good with that?
Shall, we do that?
So we'll continue from here.
Sure, let's go for it.
Do you know what I thoughtabout?
Yes, I think there is arelationship, to answer your
(02:40):
question, between your beliefs,your culture.
I don't want to go as far asreligion maybe, yes, religion,
but let's just, we don't want toopen up the conversation too
deep or too wide.
Let's focus on culture, right?
I do strongly believe thatthere is a relationship between
your facial expression andculture, your cultural
(03:01):
background.
And to give us a point ofreference, a starting point,
call it whatever you want.
I thought about cognitivedissonance, right, and for some
of the listeners that don't knowwhat that means, this was a
concept theory.
They came about in the 50s, Ithink, 1950s.
Simply put, it talks aboutsomething consistency that could
(03:24):
happen between what we believe,what's in our head and our
actions.
Meaning, george tells me onething inside of me inside of me,
it's pissing me off, it'supsetting me, it's stressing me
out, I'm turmoil inside my head,but my actions reflect someone
that is happy, smiling, relaxed,agreeable, right?
(03:48):
So there's a disconnect betweenwhat goes on in my head and
what I'm actually doing and thatI think creates some discomfort
in some people, right, sometension, when they do feel that
disconnect between both.
(04:09):
Some people and I'm going to usethis as a starting point,
george, and you can share yourthoughts I think some people may
deal with this by trying toacquire some information.
So you said something to methat triggered that kind of
reaction, or I'm thinking onething, that I'm acting in
(04:29):
another way.
I may seek to ask you for somemore info, to try to agree with
you, to eliminate that tensionor discomfort, or I might try to
minimize the impact of thatinconsistency or gap that's in
my mind so that I can kind oflike relax myself a little bit.
(04:51):
Your thoughts, I'll give itback to you before I continue
and go into culture and moredetail.
What do you want to add to whatI said?
Speaker 2 (05:02):
I'm still stuck on the big terms of cognitive
dissonance that you brought intoour back to basics conversation
here.
So so, so trying to.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
I said something that you don't know where you can
talk about.
That's the first in 35 years.
Wow, let me say where themoment go ahead.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
So I'm just trying to connect it a little bit to the,
the facial expression.
So are you saying that you're?
You're in a situation, let'ssay, where you're in polite
company, that you know, you knowthat you need to smile and look
present, but something is goingon that is not making you happy
(05:45):
, right Is that you know?
And so, on the inside, you'refeeling like because I think
we've all been there right whereyou're forced to try to look
pleasant, you're forced to tryto put that, that grin and bear
it per se, maybe it's done.
So I'll tell you.
My story is, you know, myparents would take me around
(06:06):
everywhere, even to, you know,their friends houses, and we
were expected to sit in thequarter and look pleasant, or
you know, and not haveentertainment per se.
So as kids, we had to learn howto try to behave and look
pleasant, even though we weremildly being tortured.
Be completely bored out of hermind, right.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
So is that is?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
that is that the type of that literally torture, of
just saying, as kids, you'reterrible.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
So I mean, is that, is that the scenario that we're
talking about, where you'reforced to try to act a certain
way, where inside yourcompletely feeling something
else?
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yes, that's actually an example.
That's definitely an exampleand I could give you.
I'll give you another exampleto write to try to give you a
better idea what I'm talkingabout.
Let me bring in culture.
Some cultures prefer what wewould call direct communication,
just being blunt, upfront aboutwhat you're feeling.
(07:11):
Some would prefer an indirectkind of discussion, right where
you're not really.
I'm not telling you, george,listen, you screwed this up.
You need to fix this ASAP.
It's your fault that thishappened.
Versus some people may preferto have an indirect type of
dialogue.
You know how do you feel aboutand you do this a lot.
(07:32):
I noticed when we talk withpeople, you try to be very
diplomatic, saying you know, howdo you feel if we had done this
?
Instead of that, how do youfeel if we had taken this
approach, instead of saying youknow what?
You did this wrong?
So picture this, george right,me and you different beliefs in
our mind.
Let's say I believe in the, inthe direct and blunt right and
(07:54):
you favored this is justhypothetically speaking.
You favor the indirect approach.
Now I'm standing with you infront of five people that we
were doing something with aproject, working on something
would and I take you by surprise.
Those people had done somethingwrong.
I take you by total surpriseand I just confront them
(08:15):
straight up, tell them you guysmess this up.
You should have done this, this, this, this, this, before we
even say hello.
Right, which is not theapproach that you would have
wanted to take.
So now you're kind of like stuckin the middle between Do I go
along with Moe and support himand back up his line of
discussion, or do I stop Moe andrestart, hit a repo like a
(08:36):
reset button and say, moe, no,wait a second, let's take this
in a different way.
Do you know what I mean, george?
So, like, you're kind of likein that situation where inside
your head You're thinking thatthis whole approach is wrong and
should have been done in adifferent way.
But yet now that I started thisline of discussion and the
whole defensive mechanisms arekicking in and you know being on
(08:58):
attack and on the defensive, wehave no choice but to join in
with me to continue thediscussion with those five
people.
So you will be taking on someactivity which you don't really
believe was the right approachfrom the beginning.
But now you're kind of like,for whatever reason, you feel
bad for me.
You don't want to embarrass me.
(09:18):
You kind of you know like youfeel, like it's too late,
whatever your reasoning is, butnow you're acting in a way
that's different from what wasin your mind.
So does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah, I do and I think that there's so, just to
be cleanly blunt about that, Itry to avoid those scenarios.
Just me personally, I know yeah.
Because, if I think there's achance in a business sense, if
(09:51):
there's a chance of thathappening, I do pre-briefs about
the approach.
I try to get us to all agree onhow, like, let's say, we're
going into a meeting and webelieve, regardless if they're a
customer or some contractor orsomething of that nature if we
believe that we've been wrongedin some way, we try to agree on
(10:13):
the approach, right, who's goingto be the main speaker, who's
going to be supported?
So, in a business sense, we dothat with pre-meeting planning,
right.
To avoid that, because I'vebeen in those scenarios and for
me personally they've usuallynot ended very well.
I'll tell you one story.
(10:36):
We had a customer that wassaying things that just plain
weren't true Objectively.
It was just not true, right.
So the leader of the meetingand I'll try to keep names out
of it to not embarrass people,the names of the meeting.
(11:00):
Now, the leader of the meetingwas my supervisor, my boss, okay
.
And he decided to directly tellthe customer that they were a
liar.
They actually called them aliar and that made me very, very
(11:20):
uncomfortable, and normally Iwould have do that.
But I saw the customer was verytaken aback and very upset by
that comment and I decided tostep in.
You know, in hindsight maybenot the best thing to do, but I
decided to step in and I saidhey, you know, I'm not sure if
(11:41):
they're a liar.
I can say for sure that I don'tthink what they're saying is
factually accurate.
Maybe we should ask why they'resaying this, given that it's
not factually accurate, andpoint out you know what the
facts are.
You know, maybe they're justmistaken, right?
Anyway, I nearly got thrown outof the room.
(12:04):
It was very nasty actually, wow, and a very embarrassing
scenario.
I was embarrassed personally,but I was also embarrassed for
my supervisor and the way he wasacting.
I'm still not sure if what I didwas right or wrong.
But I felt as though pointingout you know that you don't just
(12:25):
flat out call your customer aliar, which was probably the
right thing to do.
But, like for those reasons,you know the way I felt I had to
act on it and that's the way Ifelt at the time.
So I try to avoid cognitivedissonance, if that's what you
call it.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yes, I'll grin and try to look pleasant and play
company, even if I don't likethat, but I'm probably going to
try to leave whenever I canwithout looking to impolite.
So you're bringing up thecognitive dissonance and it's
been interesting.
But how does that affectbusiness situations?
You know, are you saying it,for instance, like in
(13:09):
negotiations?
You might want to poke yourface on it, even though you
don't like their offer.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
I wasn't thinking about that example, but I'll
give you an example that has todo with negotiations.
But let me just do a quickcomment about what you just said
.
I think the example that yougave is a mix between your
beliefs and what you believe youshould do and the fact that
you're seeking more informationto diffuse or dilute that
(13:36):
cognitive dissonance.
You get what I mean.
Like, remember what I saidearlier, that sometimes you seek
affirmation.
That's exactly it.
You're trying to do the proper,right thing to get some
information to either agree withwhat your boss is saying to
some extent right, or to showhim in a professional way that
you know what.
No, let's give them a chance.
(13:56):
There's just misunderstanding.
But let me go back to yourquestion Negotiating again, me
and you and I'm going to makemyself be the bad guy again.
Let's say me and you aresitting together and we're
negotiating with a client rightNow.
We're meeting with somebody ina country, right.
(14:18):
So to bring in that culturalaspect of it, we're quote
unquote gifting, not bribing,but gifting is okay.
So you see me sitting there andI know, based upon the beliefs
of the customs of that culturethat we're in, it's okay to take
out a Rolex watch and a boxwrapped up in a nice bow, nice
(14:39):
gift trap, and I give it to thehead of operations of the
company procurement that we wantto work with.
I'm like, oh, here's a nicelittle gesture that we just want
to thank you for You're takingthe time to meet with us.
Do you see what I mean, george?
Right.
So you're sitting there lookingat it.
You're blown away that I justbroke an ethical code where I'm,
in your mind, bribing somebody,but even though in that country
(15:00):
that's actually considered, soto speak, a gift.
Now if we come back here to theUS and our bosses, bosses,
bosses find out that I did this,I'll be kicked out, just like
you almost did in that meetingthat you were at right Because I
did a big, big no, no, but overthere it's okay.
So now you're sitting again inthat dilemma.
Your beliefs, your background,is very different from the
(15:24):
beliefs and the customs of thecountry that we're in, right,
cognitive descendants, again,right.
So that starts a whole kind ofconflicting view between what I
did and what you believed tohave happened, where there
shouldn't have been a gift likethis given at all because it's
unethical even though it's notillegal, but it's unethical.
(15:46):
I shouldn't have done that.
So that triggers you know howdo you act on the outside versus
how you believe in the outside.
So that's an example that comesright to my mind, because I
know this happens a lot and Iheard about it in a lot of
interactions where the twodiffering culture views between
two countries that are workingtogether can come into play.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, so that situation that you bring up, it
would be a one that I would havesome major cognitive dissidents
.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
I know, I know.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
So so you bring up an interesting, because I do think
, I do think you know, we'reworking for a US firm where
we're American, we're bound byUS laws and in the United States
, bribing or you know that's,those are that's corruption and
that's that's illegal right,exactly, you literally can't do
(16:40):
that.
So so you put me into a dilemmawhere I would so obligated to
report it.
And even though you're you'remy friend, you know, and I and I
, I feel a lot of affection foryou.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
You know that that would be a big, big problem for
me, Right?
So you know, I I'm just lookingat your face now and I know
you're looking at it like I knowthat's exactly what you would
do, but and that's why I wantedto bring something up to an
extreme.
But that's exactly.
But let me ask you, orsomething Okay, what about if we
?
You know we want to please thatclient, right, we want to
(17:18):
obviously get the contract, sowe take him out to dinner.
If we take him out to dinner,is that long?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
It depends to what level.
So I'll just tell you where Iwork.
We'd have to report that, right, and we'd have to talk about
the LB, like, like what waseaten?
Was there alcohol involved?
Who attended?
So there's, we would have thatscrutiny.
You know, for my day job right,my day job would scrutinize
(17:49):
that we'd have to report it andideally we'd get permission
ahead of time on the levels andthe scenario and what to do
about that.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
So the permission, where do you draw the line?
Meaning, I went to a dinner onetime at a Christmas time with a
company back in the 2000s, whenI was my corporate life, and
they bought.
We were in Bridgewater, newJersey, and they bought an $8000
bottle of wine.
Right, extreme, okay.
What about if it was a thousand?
What if it was $2,000 bottle ofwine?
(18:18):
What if it was a $500, $800.
You get my point right.
Where does that cognitivedissonance kick in for people?
And I'm just using an example.
I know we can take this in amillion different ways, but
where does it become?
Where, oh wow, those people arereally spoiling me, they're
really taking good care of me.
Versus, don't you dare spendmore than X amount on something
(18:42):
to please your or schmooze withyour client?
What do you draw that line?
Or how do you think about?
What parameters do you thinkare that in your mind to decide
to say you know what.
We're only going to go up to Xamount of dollars per
transaction, per meal, perdinner, per whatever, per gift.
What do we think about?
Yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
So I I'll say that, yeah, that that's a hard one
without, yeah right.
And I would say that there'sclear lines where you know
you're talking about thoseextravagant bottles of wine and
some other things.
So you know there's a lot offavors and gifts that go on
where I can tell you, if you'redoing business with, let's say,
(19:27):
the government that, that thoseare like immediate red flags,
right, huge red flag.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Yeah, that you can do .
Speaker 2 (19:35):
I would say in certain corporate scenarios.
Some of that I still think athousand dollar bottle wine is,
it is somehow a little crazy.
But I I do know that Some ofthose things are a little bit
more expected right in the waythat business and I don't think
(19:55):
it's all wrong.
I I've I've been in the in thecorporate business of business
world before and some of thoseinteractions system, those
dinners, are important ways thatyou build relationships with
clients and the way you buildrapport that you get on a common
line of bearing.
So I don't think having dinnerwith clients or customers is a
(20:18):
problem.
I do.
I do think that if it gets tothe point where you're doing
special favors and bribing anddoing you know business in a way
that you wouldn't do, there'ssomething wrong with that
scenario for sure.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Okay, okay, and I know we can spend hours talking
about this number of differentscenarios, meaning if you're
selling a printer to that clientversus if you're selling them a
bowling plane, right like,depending on the contract and
how much you're getting.
I understand, and but let melet me do this, if it's okay
with you.
Let's switch to anotherdimension and I'll give another
example about the triggercognitive distance and I'll be
(20:55):
based upon cultural views powerdistance.
How much do I accept higherauthority based upon my boss,
the power that, or the authoritythat my boss has or that my
boss's boss may have over me?
What level of acceptance andobedience do I have based upon
(21:19):
that?
So, in some cultures that arepretty authoritarian in their
business practices, it's verynormal and I've seen this.
Honestly, I'm going to use avery, very, very extreme example
.
In retail I was being with aclient, one of his sales reps in
the business, and it was kindof like a warehouse.
That a mistake.
(21:40):
He slapped him on the face andit was.
The guy turned around and saidsorry, boss, I'm sorry about
that, and he walked away andcontinued his work.
He slapped him.
The first thing that came to mymind right?
What if his wife was there?
What if his kid was there?
Would he still have slapped him?
What if, what if, what if, whatif you got the idea right?
(22:00):
Like a million questions swirlthrough my mind.
But all I could do?
I stood back.
I was 100% neutral, didn'tcomment in any way about what I
saw.
I'm just continued ourdiscussion.
You know about what I was therefor.
But that to me, right, cognitivedissonance.
My whole view of that managerafter he did that slap changed
(22:26):
and I was thinking to myselfshould it have changed?
Should I stay the same way?
I mean in this country, nowthat I spent months there.
So it happened by him, byothers, by others, by others,
and it's a norm you dropsomething, you get physically
punished for it, you messsomething up.
It's not like they're walkingaround and stacking each other,
but I'm saying it happens right.
(22:46):
So that opened up my mind to awhole kind of thinking, way of
thinking when I'm dealing withpeople from cultures that have a
whole different idea of power,distance.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, so you know, it's that, that's that's
prominent about.
Like, the physical nature ofthat, of that culture, is kind
of blowing my mind and I don'twant to derail the whole
conversation about the what, if,what, what would I do?
Speaker 1 (23:20):
in that scenario.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
But that that was terribly that was terribly
uncomfortable for me that that'snot and what I do a lot of
international business and thisis what what I'll say.
I'll get to you know, the powerdistance in a second majority
of the interactions that I haveare in the nuance and, for
(23:44):
instance, some certain cultureswill be more forthcoming, like
your previous examples andothers.
Some are more correct thanothers and sometimes I need to
listen and watch that culture orthat person in that culture
more closely to try to get theirmeaning.
But, for instance, if they'renot as direct as the US culture,
I really try to examine theirwords and try to understand what
(24:07):
they're saying and ask morefollow up questions because I
want to make sure that I reallycaptured, whether they like it
or not.
Are they just telling me thatit's?
Oh, it's okay when they'resaying this thing is horrible,
right, that's?
what we mean In the powerdistance, you know.
Let me ask you if this is agood, a good example.
(24:28):
Yes, so in my company we hadthe a lot of former military
people and, by the way, that'sfrom stay weekend.
So if you're a vet out there,thank you for your service.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Oh yeah, thank you for your service.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yes, yes, but if we have, you know, we have a lot of
vets, a lot of people in themilitary in my company and
oftentimes I find that they'revery much in a higher they, they
, I think because of themilitary training they really
respect leadership right.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
And that's saying that I don't, that I don't
respect.
But sometimes when I'm workingin a collaborative sense with
with some of these people,whether they're in business
development or engineering, youknow, I will be willing to
reinterpret.
you know executive leadershipdesires, right.
I'm willing to reinterpret itto something that makes sense,
(25:23):
something that I still, asthough, will you know, come down
to me and and they're not there, they're very much into.
No, the authority, the power,said that I have to follow it to
the letter.
And yeah, my and my experiencesit doesn't make sense.
I have to tell the executivewhat they're saying doesn't make
sense.
(25:43):
I have to follow up because thisdoesn't make sense, or I will
find a way for it to make senseand implement their desires in
in a sensible manner.
Right, does that make?
Does that?
Does that?
Speaker 1 (25:56):
power distance and and and see.
So you're saying you would askquestions to get some
clarification right, like thegist of it is that right, but
what, but what, what, what?
If you were in the military,would you still ask why?
Or would you just go and do it?
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Um, it depends, so I'll, and I'll tell you why it
depends, right?
So I I feel as though whenyou're in the military and this
is just I'll just tell you theway I am in the military- so, um
, if, if you're, if you're in a,let's say, uh, life and death
situation and you are getting anorder that totally doesn't make
(26:42):
sense, right, you should, Ibelieve, ask them to repeat the
order.
Right, please repeat that order, please.
You know, please confirm,confirm this that you're
requesting this.
I think asking for confirmationmakes sense.
Uh, now, in the military, ifyou're in operations and you're
(27:03):
being told you know specificdirection, it's set up in in
such a way where you have to dothat right, because you not
acting in a timely manner couldmean life and death in a bad way
for for the people you'resupporting.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
So, yeah, I would do it right.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
But, but, but I would probably ask for clarification.
If I was in a military scenarioand it was not a life and death
, let's say combat scenario, I Imight in a nice way privately
challenge my, my, my supervisorand say look, this is, this is
what I'm seeing here.
I bring into this privately, ofcourse, you know we'll, we'll
(27:43):
carry it out as as you requested, but here's, here's the way I
see it, and I you know, becauseI'm your subordinate.
I feel it's my obligation tomake you the best you can.
So here's here's what I say.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
You know it's a whole other.
It'll be a whole otherinteresting discussion.
Talk about the differencesbetween cognitive dissonance,
between the military world andthe corporate world.
And you know, to try to bringsomebody in that lives in that
world, to ask them, you knowbecause I think it would be a
whole different mentality howyou deal with that disconnect in
your mind, with your actions,especially if you're in the
(28:18):
middle of battle, right, youknow, I just thought of that now
while we were talking, but yeah, anyway, no, but we're not
going to get too deep into itnow, but yeah, so those are kind
of like the main things Ithought about.
Right, like power, distance,the communication style, the
culture accepting change.
(28:38):
Also right, like how, how muchdoes someone believe in change
versus stability and the fear ofthe unknown, asking somebody to
do something that they think isgoing to change their world?
I can think of you know several, many different examples where
a cultural aspect or backgroundwould trigger a cognitive
(29:03):
dissonance kind of reaction.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
So I just want to wrap it up and I know we're
running out of time and not tobring something up for that
minute.
But, but I was listening to abook, actually listening to an
audio book about how to talk topeople, and one of the issues
they brought up was being overthe phone.
Right, and being over the phone, yeah, it is a scenario where
(29:32):
facial expressions might notmatter, right, yeah.
But just thinking aboutcognitive dissonance and kind of
like the almost the opposite ofthat is true too.
And this this personrecommended that, in order to
sound pleasant on the phone, youwant to purposely smile when
(29:54):
answering the phone, even thoughthe person can't hear you.
Yeah, yeah and that and that andthat, like you can actually
drive your posture, your facialexpressions and the way you are
over the phone in a way topresent yourself vocally better.
And I just think that thatconcept of cognitive dissonance
and how maybe to avoid it bycontinuing to have good
(30:18):
expressions, good presentationskills, even when you're not
necessarily being seen.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
And you know it makes perfect sense, for the same
reason why people, sometimes,when they're arguing or fighting
over the phone, they're wavetheir fist, they shake their
hands, they, you know, like theyraise up, they swing their arms
.
I think in the same manner, itwould also help if you do the
opposite and try to smile, tryto, you know, feel that
confidence in your posture.
So, not a good point.
I agree with the 100%.
(30:46):
Now, this is.
This has been interesting.
I'm glad we bought this up andI think it was worth it to you
know, spend this time talkingabout cognitive dissonance.
It was an interesting point,like you know, bringing in that
part of the negotiation, thedecision making process.
It was worth the time, I think,to bring this point up so that,
(31:06):
you know, just open up people'sminds to it and have them think
about it more.
I'll definitely think about itmore later, you know, see what
other factors could influence it.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Yeah.
So what I'm thinking about ismaybe for next time let's talk
about body language in moreformal scenarios like
interviewing, presenting, andnot just kind of like an
everyday scenario, but maybe aspecial scenario where you might
need to get dressed up orpresent, or you know, presenting
(31:42):
is good.
It looks like you're puttingtogether.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Yeah, yeah, I like the sound of presenting because
I know we talked aboutinterviews before.
Definitely we can bring it upagain.
But yeah, let's bring in thepresentation angle.
I think that one would beuseful to a lot of people.
Sounds good, george, we'll dothat, buddy.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
So listen, let's wrap it up here, Mo and it's been a
great conversation, and so thankyou all for listening to this
episode of Back to Basics on theBusiness Edge, brought to you
by Feliciano School of Businessat Montclair State University.
We hope you enjoyed thispodcast and welcome any feedback
you have for us, includingsuggestions for future topics.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Thank you, george, and thank you to all of our
listeners, as always, and I lookforward to our next discussion.
Buddy, we'll continue thisdialogue.
See you next time.
I'm back to basic spot testeveryone, take care, awesome,
see you next time.
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