April 15, 2025 • 30 mins
Communications coach Simon de Deney shares his journey from acting to helping people become better communicators, offering practical techniques to overcome presentation anxiety. His unique background provides valuable insights into how theater techniques can transform business presentations and help people engage audiences more effectively.
• The fear of public speaking stems from the emotional intensity and vulnerability it creates
• Presentation nerves can be managed through "inside out" (mental focus) and "outside in" (physical techniques) approaches
• Choose a positive word like "inspire" or "entertain" to guide how you want to come across
• Square breathing (4 counts in, hold 4, out 4, hold 4) reduces anxiety and improves vocal quality
• Body language signals confidence—avoid protective postures or overcompensation
• Stand in the "classical position" with relaxed posture as your default stance
• The "I'm important, you're important" mindset creates balanced presenter-audience connection
• Our brains evolved to learn through stories—"storytelling is learning for free"
• Perfect your opening and closing lines since audiences remember first and last impressions
• Record practice sessions and review them with a friend for valuable feedback
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
He is a communications coach.
He is an author, a writer and aprofessional actor, and his
name is Simon Dedenne.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
We learn as a species , we have an experience, we're
affected by it.
It either rewards orpotentially punishes us and we
remember that the good emotionor the bad emotion stays with us
.
And that kind of is whatstories are, because it's
basically taking that learningexperience and giving it to
somebody else is basicallytaking that learning experience
(00:27):
and giving it to somebody else.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Hello and welcome to the Business Edge brought to you
by the Feliciano School ofBusiness here at Montclair State
University.
I'm Gail Yash and I'll be yourhost for this podcast.
If you're someone who struggleswith public speaking maybe you
have some nerves or you justneed to engage your audience
more this podcast is for you.
I am thrilled here today tohave a guest.
He is a communications coach,he is an author, a writer and a
(00:52):
professional actor, and his nameis Simon Dedenne.
Simon, welcome to the BusinessEdge.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Great to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Simon, can you tell our audience a little bit about
yourself and how you came to dothe things that you're doing,
because your background iswonderful?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah, I mean, I kind of never intended to do this and
I never intended to become anactor either.
So I guess, yeah, takingyourself by surprise is possibly
a good thing.
I mean, I originally I went touniversity and I was going to be
a writer and then I starteddoing a little bit of singing in
(01:29):
Gilbert and Sullivan on stage,and the Oxford University
Gilbert and Sullivan Society hada slight imbalance in the sexes
.
They were like three men andabout 40 women, really.
So the chances of you getting asolo part as a man were pretty
high, and so I started doingthis thing and I thought I
(01:50):
really love this.
Yeah, this is really exciting.
I'm kind of getting a real buzzout of this, and I auditioned
for some more plays and I gotmore parts and I thought I'll
try this I want to see if I canactually do this.
And I applied to drama schooland I was applied to advertising
(02:10):
agencies and I got into acouple advertising agencies and
I thought that's fine, I'm gonnado this and it's exciting and
it's creative and I can also dothe writing and I'm not starving
to get out somewhere.
And then, three weeks before myfinal exams, I got a letter
from a drama school saying wewill see you in September for
the postgraduate course, yourcomplete works of Shakespeare
(02:33):
and your dancing jockstrap andyour tap shoes.
And I went oh my God, what am Igoing to do?
And I was really really fast,had everything was kind of
sorted and just came out of theblue.
I really kind of looked deepand thought I've only just been
doing this and maybe for thereare people who actually they
(02:57):
will ask themselves a question,they will just say that is for
me.
They said, no, forget that,stick with.
So I went and I worked inadvertising three years.
I learned about marketing and Ilearned about communications
and all sorts of things.
But I still thought I wonder ifI should be doing this.
And at the time I guess I wasabout 24, 25, I thought I can't
(03:19):
reach 30, which is like anincredibly old age and not at
least have tried it, yeah.
So I applied again to dramaschool and I got in.
I'm in the two 30, which islike an incredibly old age, yeah
, and not at least have tried it, yeah, yeah.
So I applied again to dramaschool and I got in and went to
your course and I rememberarriving at drama school and the
first week going I've arrivedhome.
Yeah, it kind of felt like home, that's great so that's kind of
(03:40):
what happened.
So, as you can see, that likeright from the start, there's a
kind of mix in terms of a kindof commercial thing going on,
but also the acting thing goingon.
And because the great thingabout being an actor and just as
a kind of side story, when Iwas making the decision about
the second time to become anactor, my girlfriend at the time
was actually a theatrical agentand I remember saying to her
(04:03):
I'm actually really, reallyexcited about this change of
career and she looked at me withone eyebrow raised and said
it's not a career, it's anoccasional occupation and that's
the great thing about acting itgives you a chance to do other
things in your life.
So I also used to do graphicdesign when I wasn't acting.
I used to do copywriting when Iwasn't acting.
(04:24):
I used to do copywriting when Iwasn't acting.
And in 2003, I went off toRomania through a long, very,
very dark story, which I won'tbore you with now, and started
to do some role-play work,working in a kind of simulation,
working with a biginternational consultancy out
there kind of simulation,working with a big international
(04:47):
consultancy out there andworking basically helping people
become better team workers,better leaders, better
communicators, and I reallyenjoyed it and I remember the um
, the first it was it soundstiny, it sounds absolutely tiny,
but at the end of the kind ofsimulation we were asked to give
feedback to all the people wewere there that we've been
working with and I remembersaying so tell me what you think
(05:11):
yeah how was it for you?
and the guy who was organizingsaid that's a great question.
I thought, hey, maybe this issomething that, yeah, you know I
should be doing.
So I started in role play andstarted doing presentation
skills.
I've got interested instorytelling and creative
writing, all sorts of things,and for the last 20 years, when
I've not been doing acting oraudiobooks and all that kind of
(05:32):
thing, I've been working withlots of different people,
helping them become bettercommunicators.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
So now I teach business communications and so
many students struggle withnerves, with presenting or how
to engage the audience.
So I have some questions I dowant to ask you, but before we
get into that, why do peoplestruggle so much with
presentations like what is itabout that people are so fearful
of it and they hate it?
Many people, not all people.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I mean I think you're right, I think that it's.
What's fascinating is that Imean I've had people who, um,
when you're working with them,are on the verge of tears.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
And you kind of give them the skills and technique
and they catch you afterwardsand they are so grateful because
you kind of give them a skillthat they didn't have before and
you give them the confidencethat they didn't have before as
well.
I think it's just the pressure,the intensity is huge and I
think it's also because it goesvery deep in terms of the kind
(06:27):
of emotions that it stirs withinpeople.
I mean, just as a kind of sillything.
As you mentioned in theintroduction, I work as a writer
and director and as an actorand so, depending on what I've
been doing at the time, I'llintroduce myself as a writer and
director and actor to people.
People get writer and directorbut if you say you're an actor,
yeah, it's a bit different,you're somehow a bit strange, uh
(06:49):
.
And like people kind of go oh,you're an actor, yeah, or you're
a thespian in some way, andthere's a, there's a slight kind
of sense of distance in yeah,because actors deal with messy
stuff, they deal with emotions,they deal with all kind of
complicated things and it feelslike it's something that is yeah
, it's a bit strange.
Why would you want to go and dothat?
And when people are presenting.
(07:10):
They feel like they're goinginto this territory.
That doesn't feel comfortableyeah that is not safe.
Where I say the emotional, theemotions are running very high,
um, and that is uncomfortableand I think that's why people
get nervous, because it's it'svery intense, it's under
pressure and it deals with.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
That brings up all sorts of emotions of people that
normally have to deal with sodo you feel that your theater
background and your actingbackground helps you in that
regard?
Speaker 2 (07:38):
yeah, completely.
It's like, uh, but what?
What is great, I think, is thatyou don't necessarily have to
spend two years of drama schoolto be a great presenter.
You can give people thetechniques very quickly within
half a day or a day to kind ofmake them feel better.
I mean, nobody's going to makecomplete dramatic change
(07:59):
overnight.
But actually if you videopeople and you show them what
they're doing and you give themsome feedback and you give them
all the techniques and at theend of the course, the workshop,
whatever you video them again,it's incredible how quickly
that's great, and then they getthe confidence, probably, and
they get the confidence.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Yeah, doing yeah so when I talk to my students they
they gave me a list and thenumber one is I'm so nervous
when I get up there I forgeteverything I'm about to say.
So how can we help people whenthey're in that situation where
their nerves just get the bestof them and all the
physiological things happenheart rate goes up, sweaty palms
, shaking knees.
(08:34):
What tips might you give tosomeone who's got that kind of
feeling?
I mean?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
first of all, I'd say that everyone feels like that,
yeah, and Michael Caine has gota great quote about actors.
He said any actor who tells youthat they're not nervous before
they go on stage or on thecamera is either lying or dead.
So it's a completely naturalthing.
I think that's important toremember that that everyone goes
(09:01):
through it.
You're not unique when you feellike that.
But I think there are two waysin particular, and they approach
the problem from completelyopposite points.
As actors, you often talk aboutworking inside, out and outside
in, meaning that you can eitherthink about what the character's
feeling and how they you knowwhat their emotions are and that
(09:24):
will change how you arephysically.
So if you feel I'm very nervous, then you probably start doing
things like with your hands thatlook like nervous mannerisms,
that kind of stuff.
Um, so the inside affects theoutside.
Or you can work outside in.
You can change physically howyou're standing.
You can maybe alter your voicein some way, um, you can do
different hand gestures and thatwill make you feel differently.
(09:46):
So that's working outside in.
And in terms of what you justasked me in terms of the, you
know that those nerves you getwhen you step up there.
I think there are two reallygood tips that work well I'd say
work out of all the stuff we'regoing to do.
One is the if you come up witha word, that is how you want to
(10:06):
come across in the audience.
Now, words like angry and scaryokay, and nervous, are probably
not great choices.
But words like inspire,entertain, charm, excite, reass
those kind of words they'repositive and they're active and
they're about focusing on theimpact you want to have on the
(10:29):
audience.
So, apart from the fact thatyou will then come across more
like that word that you choose,more exciting.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
So it's like changing how you think about the
presentation.
Yeah, there's a great quotefrom Dr Wayne Dyer change the
way you look at things and thethings you look at change.
So if it's changed the way yousee that presentation and not
focus on the nerves, how you'refeeling, give yourself those
other words, change the script,then you'll present.
Maybe the nerves will go downabsolutely.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
But the fact that when it's because you play a
game where you, you you askpeople to come up and they
choose a word at random andthey've got a little their
speech in the manner of the wordand the audience have got to
actually guess what the word is.
And two things areextraordinary first of all, that
people do it well.
They have been given no time toprepare.
They're not actors, but if youask them to do their speech
(11:20):
nervously or friendily orinspiringly, they will do it
like that.
And the second thing is theaudience will guess the word
always or get it very, veryclose.
They'll say just with that oneword you can transform how you
come across.
But the other thing as wellwhich is good about that
technique is it takes thepressure off you because you're
not thinking about you, you'rethinking about the impact of
(11:41):
having on the audience.
So again, that release some ofthe nerves.
That's the kind of inside outthing.
The outside in thing that worksreally well is and it's really
simple but it's very powerful isbreathing and breathing deeply.
And there are loads of greatbreathing exercises and everyone
should kind of choose the onethat works for them, the one
(12:02):
that I find works really well isactually a yoga exercise called
square breathing.
Basically, you breathe in for acount of four, you hold your
breath for a count of four,breathe out for four, hold you
do that, maybe say four times,and it does three things.
First of all, it does relax youbecause you're slowing down
your breathing and slowing downyour heart rate so you feel more
(12:25):
relaxed.
Also, the process of doing thatmakes you concentrate on just
that rather than all the kind ofstuff going around you.
So you again it kind of helpstake away that pressure.
The other thing which is greatabout it is it means you're
because you're breathing more,because the way we much we
produce our voices is throughthe breath, going through the
(12:46):
vocal cords which vibrate, andthen we resonate in the
different kind of slightly emptybody cavities.
It gives your, your resonance akind of deeper tone.
So you sound more confident.
Again, you feel more confident,but you also it just feels more
relaxed.
It's a warmer tone.
So in terms of engaging withyour audience, they're more
(13:08):
likely to warm to you becauseyou've got that kind of like
deeper, baser tones going on itis amazing how the physiology
affects the emotions.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
So I have noticed people.
They forget to breathe and thenthey feel short of breath, and
then they and it snowballs rightit goes into a whole thing.
Yeah, so this idea of focusingon the physiology to help, then
the feeling about it and thenthe delivery, and you mentioned
some non-verbal.
You mentioned the non-verbal,so the body posture maybe, or
the gestures.
Are there tips that you cangive with certain types of the
(13:40):
way you should stand or the wayyou should stand to make you
feel more confident?
Speaker 2 (13:45):
a lot of the time, people, you know again, because
you're under pressure, um, thevery kind of primeval emotions
start coming up and it you feelas though you're kind of under
attack and the the kind ofresponse that our ancestors had,
um was to the our naturalpredators, which were wild dogs,
(14:07):
bingos, wolves, jackals, umwould be to try and protect the
areas that they would go for,and they tend to go from the
neck or the groin, okay, becausethat's what most vulnerable.
So what we tend to do when we'reunder stress, under pressure,
when we're about to present, iswe tend to protect that.
So a lot of the time we do oneof two things Either we'll kind
of like, make ourselves smaller,okay, and hide those kind of
(14:28):
parts of our body, play with ourfaces, that kind of stuff, okay
, just to kind of keep thatgoing.
We'll put our hands here, handsin front, that kind of thing.
Or we'll do the other thing,which is to kind of go, you know
again, if you're being attackedby dogs, you're going to go.
Come and have a go if you thinkyou're hard enough, okay and
you're going to make yourselfmuch bigger.
So you go, you overcompensate,so you'll open up your whole
(14:50):
body and basically kind of go,I'm not afraid of you.
Okay, I'm exposing everythingbecause actually I'm stronger
than you.
And that also is a kind ofgiveaway.
When people kind of swagger onstage, you can tell that
actually it's betraying thenerves.
So, if you can, if you can have,there's a thing in acting, when
you learn acting called theclassical position, where
(15:11):
basically you stand with yourfeet underneath your knees,
underneath your hips, yourback's relaxed, and you're
basically just your hands byyour side, completely open, and
it's say it's not closed in,it's not compensated by being
too open, and it's just veryrelaxed.
And that is a as a kind ofposition that you take up, as a,
(15:34):
as you know, a kind of defaultposition doesn't mean you can't.
I mean you should be movingyour hands around, your arms
around using the stage, thespace, wherever you're working,
but as a kind of defaultposition, as a kind of like
because I'm here, I'm feelingconfident, I'm feeling relaxed.
That's a great way to be ableto start.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Because then if you feel that way, then you're going
to have that emotion that I'mconfident.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
So that physical position, that's the outside, in
bit again.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yeah, not the fake it till you, make it kind of thing
, but just make yourself feelfeel confident if I, if I stand
in a position that I am feelingtaller, then I feel more
confident.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
But that's really the kind of the fake it till.
You make it because um andagain.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
It's almost like kind of thing about imposter
syndrome yes um, and I rememberreading um, there's a british
director, really great greatBritish director, paul Richard
Eyre, who used to run theNational Theatre in the UK, and
I read his diaries, calledNational Service, about his time
in the National Theatre andthey are a great source of high
class gossip about actors.
Okay, it's a fantastic read andit's also like kind of short
(16:34):
chapters, so again, you can likeread it a bit at night and just
read a few.
And the fascinating thing washe is one of the UK's greatest
theatre directors and everypress night that he had it was
clear he couldn't watch theperformance.
He'd be behind the audiencepacing up and down, really,
(16:54):
because he was terrified thatthis time he'd be found out.
Yeah, and I think that that'simportant.
Remember, everyone feels thatthey are imposter in some way
and again, like the whole youknow, accepting that you're
nervous because everyone feelsnervous as well.
Um, so actually it's, it's justa completely natural thing so
just embrace it just so you justjust embrace it, yeah, but I
(17:17):
think that the again the thingabout the choosing the word that
focuses your kind of positiveactive word, I think that the
again the thing about thechoosing the word that focuses
you, a kind of positive activeword, I think that can help in
terms of, you know, actually,can.
I fake it till you make it.
There's another exercise, whichis quite good too, but you get
an inside out one where which iscalled I'm important, you're
important.
Again, it goes to this ideathat sometimes, when people are
(17:39):
on stage stage they kind ofdefend themselves and to get rid
of the nerves they'll kind ofgo I am so important, okay, and
they will just again bigthemselves up and alienate the
audience because they're kind ofthinking of though they're,
they're not as good as them.
Uh, there's a whole that kindof terrible old story about you
know, if you ever go for aninterview, people kind of say
(17:59):
imagine people naked.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
You know, I never like that advice.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
That's so ridiculous, right, exactly, yeah, you don't
have to do that um, or you dothe opposite thing.
Where you're going to go, youknow I'm, I'm, I'm nothing, I'm
insignificant, and the audienceis incredibly important and you
know, if you're in an interview,that's probably true.
You don't if you're feeling asthough they've got you know your
career and you're left in theirhands.
But again, it's a kind of aninside thing, an emotional thing
(18:24):
, an intellectual thing.
If you go, I'm important,you're important, and you kind
of walk on stage or thepresentation hall or wherever
you are, without thought thatyou know you have value as a
person and what you're about todo, and the audience have value.
It's a great way, okay, both tofeel good about yourself, but
also to engage with the audienceas well.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
And there's no power issue there.
It's not like I'm better, or,oh my gosh, they're judging me.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Yeah, exactly, absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
So you talked about the nonverbal.
What about verbal techniques toproject your voice?
A lot of students might saythey come up and they're so
nervous they can't get the voiceout or they can't even reach
the back of the room with theirvoice.
So what are some verbaltechniques?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
um.
Singing is good what if youcan't sing because I can't uh,
everyone can sing oh, youhaven't heard me, simon okay,
after this podcast we're gonnahave to do this um, we're gonna
go and find a bar somewhere andwe'll kind of karaoke and we're
going to.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
That's trouble.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
That's the rest that's the big one.
Um, the I mean, I meanseriously singing is great,
because to sing you have to.
Obviously it's like speaking ona continuous note, so actually
it requires more breath and thebreath again like I'm saying
before with the square breathingthing is key.
So if you, if you're really,you know, using a diaphragm and
you're really breathing deeply,then your voice will naturally
(19:44):
sound better.
There's a kind of very easytechnique where you, you can
just go and practice in the room.
You, you know you're about topresent in, and it's not about
shouting, but it's just aboutit's.
It's weird because you knowwhere you kind of go.
It shouldn't work because knowwhere's the science behind it.
But if you just, when you'retalking, you imagine your voice
(20:04):
is hitting the back of the room,it will, without necessarily
you straining or, let's say,shouting, you know it just tends
to work as a thing.
That's a great technique.
But also, I mean, particularlynowadays, you know, people are
often presenting not just infront of huge halls, but they're
presenting in a meeting room orpresenting on Zoom in some way,
(20:26):
and that becomes less of anissue, obviously.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah, yeah, so you do consulting with storytelling, I
know.
Tell the audience here aboutstorytelling and how to engage
your audience with a messagethat tells a story.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
How long have you got ?
Speaker 1 (20:41):
I know right, but that's where have you got?
Speaker 2 (20:42):
I know right.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
But that's where.
That's the presentation skillstoday.
Right, that's how to connectwith your audience.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Yeah, and I was again the same way.
I was saying, you know, I kindof wasn't necessarily ever going
to be an actor, I was nevergoing to be a communications
coach, I hadn't really got aninterest or a kind of knowledge
of storytelling.
But now I completely love itand I'm passionate about
(21:08):
storytelling.
Um, but when I first startedlooking into it I was puzzled
because it seemed that a lot ofthe stuff that was written um
made assumptions about what agood story was, and there was
almost a sense that storytellingwas something that maybe great
writers, great screenwriters did, but it wasn't necessarily
(21:28):
something that everybody coulddo.
That, you know, being creative,telling stories was in some way
special and I thought I don'tbelieve that there must be
something.
If people are touched bystories and we know they are
touched by stories all the timethere must be something going on
that, almost scientifically,you can work out yeah and just
(21:50):
at that time I was getting intothis kind of like what's going
on mode.
Um, a lot of work in terms ofevolutionary psychology and in
terms of neuroscience wasuncovering you know how we
evolved as a species and alsowhat our brains were doing.
Um, and the evolutionarypsychology is great because it
kind of gives you the kind ofbig picture about why, why our
(22:11):
brains might have evolved toactually be adapted to story,
and the neuroscience kind ofbacks it up.
So there's a kind of thingabout, like, when we have
experiences.
They talk about neurons thatfire together, wire together,
but if you have an emotionalexperience, the neurons are in
the brain and you can rememberthat in some way and you can see
that in terms of the way inwhich we learn as a species.
(22:34):
You know we have an experience,we're affected by it, either
kind of rewards or itpotentially punishes us, and we
remember that.
The good emotion or the bademotion stays with us and that
kind of is what stories are,because it's basically taking
that learning experience andgiving it to somebody else.
So our brains have adapted torespond when people it talks
(22:56):
about a particular, they don'ttalk about a particular story.
So if you know I've beenattacked by somebody, uh, in any
way, and I'm I'm telling thatstory.
I will go through thatemotional experience and you,
listening to me, because yourbrain has evolved to learn about
this will also feel the sameway and you will probably feel
that you won't go down thatalleyway.
Yeah, yeah, so we learn.
(23:17):
I mean, storytelling isbasically learning for free.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah, it is.
I was saying the challenge thatsome of the students have that
they share with me is that theyhave a message they have to give
, they have to tell something,and then maybe we can have them
figure out a story they have togive.
They have to tell something andthen maybe we could have them
figure out a story they want togive to their audience.
But in a business presentation,a lot of students will say to
me how do I stay present?
Because when I'm starting, Ipractice, I prepare, but when I
(23:40):
start to share whatever I haveto share, I forget I'm.
I'm not present in the moment.
My mind goes to other things,like they're looking at me,
they're judging me, so how anytips for helping a student or
anyone stay present in theirpresentation focused on the
message and giving it, not howthey're being perceived?
Speaker 2 (24:01):
um, well, the technique I've mentioned at the
beginning, the thing aboutchoosing the word again,
focusing not on you but on some.
And if you, and again in thesame way, we're saying that, you
know, everyone feels nervous,everyone feels under pressure,
everyone feels as though they'rean imposter, probably everyone
at some point is going to fluffit, they're going to make a
mistake and again, you justaccept that and live with that
(24:25):
because, everyone does it andit's not a big deal.
So, again, being able to forgiveyourself and knowing it's going
to happen, knowing that the,the audio visual is not going to
work, yeah, knowing thatsuddenly there's a firearm,
whatever, uh, and that's thekind of excuse, like something
might go wrong it always does Iexpect it to happen, right yeah
and and I got that question froma lot of students what happens
if I forget?
Speaker 1 (24:45):
what happens?
And I said, well, what's theworst that could happen?
So you forget.
Your audience will probablyhelp you if you say I well, I
was just talking about, what wasI just talking about?
And you hope someone says, oh,you were saying whatever, yeah,
absolutely so just to be lighteron yourself, forgive yourself
Completely.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Also, I mean just on a very basic level.
I mean having cards.
So if you try and learnsomething, that's generally not
a great idea yeah, generally nota great idea because you know
you're kind of worrying abouthaving to learn it and being
word perfect and all that kindof thing, and also it probably
won't come out as being as kindof natural and authentic as
you'd like it to be.
So just having a good bulletpoint.
(25:21):
So if you do lose your place,you've got your next bullet
point there and you can go on tothe next one.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Yep, it's kind of having that picture that you
want the story, that you want totell your audience the main
points, but how you get therethat those words could be
different yeah you don't have tomemorize it.
In fact, you really can'tmemorize it, because it's not
going to be an actual, and youwill forget yeah, that's right,
and I just forget their linesthe whole time.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
But we just don't know about it because we don't
know the script, um, but so wait, when you're an actor and you
forget your lines, do you justad-lib?
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Do you just fill in the blanks?
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah, you have to kind of.
Hopefully you manage to kind ofget back to what you actually
were saying in the first place.
But yeah, there are momentswhen obviously you go completely
hot and cold.
When you go you can't rememberyour lines, but actually you
will get back.
But obviously the whole pointis that the more you do it
professionally, professionally,the more you know that something
(26:13):
will go right at the end it'sgoing to be okay.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Well, even even with presentations in the business
sense, the more you do it and Ishare this with students the
better you'll feel about it.
You may not end up loving it,but you'll have more confidence
and at the end, it's.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
It's that, and the other thing I would say is that,
in terms of learning, if youlearn your opening line and you
learn your closing line, so youcan deliver those completely
confidently, that's greatbecause, in terms of what they
call the primacy and the recencyeffect, people remember the
first impressions and theyremember the last thing about
you.
So if you get that right, whocares what happens in the middle
(26:48):
?
but actually you've made a greatfirst impression and you've
left people with a great lastingimpression yeah and that's
because they it's only what acouple sentences it's easy to do
yeah, that's like that quotefrom Maya Angelou.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
I'll probably get it wrong, but people will forget
what you said, forget what youdid, but they'll always remember
how you made them feelabsolutely right.
I think I butchered that, butit's something like no, no, it's
good I will butcher that too.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, well, that's a great one.
Yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
So, as we sum up, here is what is the big takeaway
?
If you had to give one tip tosomeone who's in front of you
saying simon, I, I'm justterrified of presenting.
How do I start?
What's the?
What's the baby step I do tostart, or is it different for
everybody?
Speaker 2 (27:28):
yeah, I think it's, I mean it obviously.
It is them everyone's kind ofgot you know different.
I think it's, I mean itobviously.
It is everyone's kind of gotyou know different issues,
whether it's like speaking tooquickly or they kind of they
move too quickly or they theykind of they're voiding all
things um I mean, I think, that,um, maybe it takes a little bit
of courage, but not too muchcourage.
Uh, if you can video yourselfbefore you give the speech and
(27:50):
then you watch it back, andmaybe watch it back with a
friend in some way, and they cangive you some feedback as well,
that can be a really great wayfor you to actually make that
progress and also to go hey,actually it wasn't that bad.
I'm feeling confident about it.
So that can be a great way tomake sure, because it's
(28:12):
rehearsal and the point is thatno actor would ever go on stage
willingly without rehearsal.
So a lot of times you find,particularly in businesses,
corporations, not-for-profits,people will spend a long time
working on the content of whatthey do, but very little time on
(28:32):
the actual delivery, and that'skey.
The delivery is key.
I mean just one thing, ifyou've got time, is it's often
really important to think about,when you give a presentation,
what the different channels ofcommunication are, in the sense
that there is what people callthe deck, like the PowerPoint
(28:54):
deck, which is often full ofinformation and people want it
as a kind of referenceafterwards.
That's fine, but then there arethe slides that you show, and
the slide shouldn't be the sameas the deck, because the slides
are your and the audience'sjourney through what you're
telling them the journey butactually the most important part
(29:14):
of the presentation is you,because you're the person that
is going to give the informationthat people want to warm to, to
feel good about in some way,and if there's like facts and
figures they want to find outafterwards go to the deck
exactly, but that's afterwards,in the moment in presentation.
It's all about you.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
That's great.
Thank you so much, Simon.
This has been wonderful and Iknow I have definitely tips to
bring back to my students.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
My pleasure.
They had a journey here and agreat holiday.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yes, thank you so much.
Well, I want to thank the crewhere too.
You guys have been great.
There's a lot of you.
Thank you so much, and we'llconclude this.
I want to say thank you to ourlisteners.
If you found this contentvaluable, please subscribe and
share this with a friend, anduntil next time.
Thanks for listening to theBusiness Edge.
He is a communications coach.
He is an author, a writer and aprofessional actor, and his
name is Simon Dedenne.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
We learn as a species , we have an experience, we're
affected by it.
It either rewards orpotentially punishes us and we
remember that the good emotionor the bad emotion stays with us
.
And that kind of is whatstories are, because it's
basically taking that learningexperience and giving it to
somebody else is basicallytaking that learning experience
(00:27):
and giving it to somebody else.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Hello and welcome to the Business Edge brought to you
by the Feliciano School ofBusiness here at Montclair State
University.
I'm Gail Yash and I'll be yourhost for this podcast.
If you're someone who struggleswith public speaking maybe you
have some nerves or you justneed to engage your audience
more this podcast is for you.
I am thrilled here today tohave a guest.
He is a communications coach,he is an author, a writer and a
(00:52):
professional actor, and his nameis Simon Dedenne.
Simon, welcome to the BusinessEdge.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Great to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Simon, can you tell our audience a little bit about
yourself and how you came to dothe things that you're doing,
because your background iswonderful?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah, I mean, I kind of never intended to do this and
I never intended to become anactor either.
So I guess, yeah, takingyourself by surprise is possibly
a good thing.
I mean, I originally I went touniversity and I was going to be
a writer and then I starteddoing a little bit of singing in
(01:29):
Gilbert and Sullivan on stage,and the Oxford University
Gilbert and Sullivan Society hada slight imbalance in the sexes
.
They were like three men andabout 40 women, really.
So the chances of you getting asolo part as a man were pretty
high, and so I started doingthis thing and I thought I
(01:50):
really love this.
Yeah, this is really exciting.
I'm kind of getting a real buzzout of this, and I auditioned
for some more plays and I gotmore parts and I thought I'll
try this I want to see if I canactually do this.
And I applied to drama schooland I was applied to advertising
(02:10):
agencies and I got into acouple advertising agencies and
I thought that's fine, I'm gonnado this and it's exciting and
it's creative and I can also dothe writing and I'm not starving
to get out somewhere.
And then, three weeks before myfinal exams, I got a letter
from a drama school saying wewill see you in September for
the postgraduate course, yourcomplete works of Shakespeare
(02:33):
and your dancing jockstrap andyour tap shoes.
And I went oh my God, what am Igoing to do?
And I was really really fast,had everything was kind of
sorted and just came out of theblue.
I really kind of looked deepand thought I've only just been
doing this and maybe for thereare people who actually they
(02:57):
will ask themselves a question,they will just say that is for
me.
They said, no, forget that,stick with.
So I went and I worked inadvertising three years.
I learned about marketing and Ilearned about communications
and all sorts of things.
But I still thought I wonder ifI should be doing this.
And at the time I guess I wasabout 24, 25, I thought I can't
(03:19):
reach 30, which is like anincredibly old age and not at
least have tried it, yeah.
So I applied again to dramaschool and I got in.
I'm in the two 30, which islike an incredibly old age, yeah
, and not at least have tried it, yeah, yeah.
So I applied again to dramaschool and I got in and went to
your course and I rememberarriving at drama school and the
first week going I've arrivedhome.
Yeah, it kind of felt like home, that's great so that's kind of
(03:40):
what happened.
So, as you can see, that likeright from the start, there's a
kind of mix in terms of a kindof commercial thing going on,
but also the acting thing goingon.
And because the great thingabout being an actor and just as
a kind of side story, when Iwas making the decision about
the second time to become anactor, my girlfriend at the time
was actually a theatrical agentand I remember saying to her
(04:03):
I'm actually really, reallyexcited about this change of
career and she looked at me withone eyebrow raised and said
it's not a career, it's anoccasional occupation and that's
the great thing about acting itgives you a chance to do other
things in your life.
So I also used to do graphicdesign when I wasn't acting.
I used to do copywriting when Iwasn't acting.
(04:24):
I used to do copywriting when Iwasn't acting.
And in 2003, I went off toRomania through a long, very,
very dark story, which I won'tbore you with now, and started
to do some role-play work,working in a kind of simulation,
working with a biginternational consultancy out
there kind of simulation,working with a big international
(04:47):
consultancy out there andworking basically helping people
become better team workers,better leaders, better
communicators, and I reallyenjoyed it and I remember the um
, the first it was it soundstiny, it sounds absolutely tiny,
but at the end of the kind ofsimulation we were asked to give
feedback to all the people wewere there that we've been
working with and I remembersaying so tell me what you think
(05:11):
yeah how was it for you?
and the guy who was organizingsaid that's a great question.
I thought, hey, maybe this issomething that, yeah, you know I
should be doing.
So I started in role play andstarted doing presentation
skills.
I've got interested instorytelling and creative
writing, all sorts of things,and for the last 20 years, when
I've not been doing acting oraudiobooks and all that kind of
(05:32):
thing, I've been working withlots of different people,
helping them become bettercommunicators.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
So now I teach business communications and so
many students struggle withnerves, with presenting or how
to engage the audience.
So I have some questions I dowant to ask you, but before we
get into that, why do peoplestruggle so much with
presentations like what is itabout that people are so fearful
of it and they hate it?
Many people, not all people.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I mean I think you're right, I think that it's.
What's fascinating is that Imean I've had people who, um,
when you're working with them,are on the verge of tears.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
And you kind of give them the skills and technique
and they catch you afterwardsand they are so grateful because
you kind of give them a skillthat they didn't have before and
you give them the confidencethat they didn't have before as
well.
I think it's just the pressure,the intensity is huge and I
think it's also because it goesvery deep in terms of the kind
(06:27):
of emotions that it stirs withinpeople.
I mean, just as a kind of sillything.
As you mentioned in theintroduction, I work as a writer
and director and as an actorand so, depending on what I've
been doing at the time, I'llintroduce myself as a writer and
director and actor to people.
People get writer and directorbut if you say you're an actor,
yeah, it's a bit different,you're somehow a bit strange, uh
(06:49):
.
And like people kind of go oh,you're an actor, yeah, or you're
a thespian in some way, andthere's a, there's a slight kind
of sense of distance in yeah,because actors deal with messy
stuff, they deal with emotions,they deal with all kind of
complicated things and it feelslike it's something that is yeah
, it's a bit strange.
Why would you want to go and dothat?
And when people are presenting.
(07:10):
They feel like they're goinginto this territory.
That doesn't feel comfortableyeah that is not safe.
Where I say the emotional, theemotions are running very high,
um, and that is uncomfortableand I think that's why people
get nervous, because it's it'svery intense, it's under
pressure and it deals with.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
That brings up all sorts of emotions of people that
normally have to deal with sodo you feel that your theater
background and your actingbackground helps you in that
regard?
Speaker 2 (07:38):
yeah, completely.
It's like, uh, but what?
What is great, I think, is thatyou don't necessarily have to
spend two years of drama schoolto be a great presenter.
You can give people thetechniques very quickly within
half a day or a day to kind ofmake them feel better.
I mean, nobody's going to makecomplete dramatic change
(07:59):
overnight.
But actually if you videopeople and you show them what
they're doing and you give themsome feedback and you give them
all the techniques and at theend of the course, the workshop,
whatever you video them again,it's incredible how quickly
that's great, and then they getthe confidence, probably, and
they get the confidence.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Yeah, doing yeah so when I talk to my students they
they gave me a list and thenumber one is I'm so nervous
when I get up there I forgeteverything I'm about to say.
So how can we help people whenthey're in that situation where
their nerves just get the bestof them and all the
physiological things happenheart rate goes up, sweaty palms
, shaking knees.
(08:34):
What tips might you give tosomeone who's got that kind of
feeling?
I mean?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
first of all, I'd say that everyone feels like that,
yeah, and Michael Caine has gota great quote about actors.
He said any actor who tells youthat they're not nervous before
they go on stage or on thecamera is either lying or dead.
So it's a completely naturalthing.
I think that's important toremember that that everyone goes
(09:01):
through it.
You're not unique when you feellike that.
But I think there are two waysin particular, and they approach
the problem from completelyopposite points.
As actors, you often talk aboutworking inside, out and outside
in, meaning that you can eitherthink about what the character's
feeling and how they you knowwhat their emotions are and that
(09:24):
will change how you arephysically.
So if you feel I'm very nervous, then you probably start doing
things like with your hands thatlook like nervous mannerisms,
that kind of stuff.
Um, so the inside affects theoutside.
Or you can work outside in.
You can change physically howyou're standing.
You can maybe alter your voicein some way, um, you can do
different hand gestures and thatwill make you feel differently.
(09:46):
So that's working outside in.
And in terms of what you justasked me in terms of the, you
know that those nerves you getwhen you step up there.
I think there are two reallygood tips that work well I'd say
work out of all the stuff we'regoing to do.
One is the if you come up witha word, that is how you want to
(10:06):
come across in the audience.
Now, words like angry and scaryokay, and nervous, are probably
not great choices.
But words like inspire,entertain, charm, excite, reass
those kind of words they'repositive and they're active and
they're about focusing on theimpact you want to have on the
(10:29):
audience.
So, apart from the fact thatyou will then come across more
like that word that you choose,more exciting.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
So it's like changing how you think about the
presentation.
Yeah, there's a great quotefrom Dr Wayne Dyer change the
way you look at things and thethings you look at change.
So if it's changed the way yousee that presentation and not
focus on the nerves, how you'refeeling, give yourself those
other words, change the script,then you'll present.
Maybe the nerves will go downabsolutely.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
But the fact that when it's because you play a
game where you, you you askpeople to come up and they
choose a word at random andthey've got a little their
speech in the manner of the wordand the audience have got to
actually guess what the word is.
And two things areextraordinary first of all, that
people do it well.
They have been given no time toprepare.
They're not actors, but if youask them to do their speech
(11:20):
nervously or friendily orinspiringly, they will do it
like that.
And the second thing is theaudience will guess the word
always or get it very, veryclose.
They'll say just with that oneword you can transform how you
come across.
But the other thing as wellwhich is good about that
technique is it takes thepressure off you because you're
not thinking about you, you'rethinking about the impact of
(11:41):
having on the audience.
So again, that release some ofthe nerves.
That's the kind of inside outthing.
The outside in thing that worksreally well is and it's really
simple but it's very powerful isbreathing and breathing deeply.
And there are loads of greatbreathing exercises and everyone
should kind of choose the onethat works for them, the one
(12:02):
that I find works really well isactually a yoga exercise called
square breathing.
Basically, you breathe in for acount of four, you hold your
breath for a count of four,breathe out for four, hold you
do that, maybe say four times,and it does three things.
First of all, it does relax youbecause you're slowing down
your breathing and slowing downyour heart rate so you feel more
(12:25):
relaxed.
Also, the process of doing thatmakes you concentrate on just
that rather than all the kind ofstuff going around you.
So you again it kind of helpstake away that pressure.
The other thing which is greatabout it is it means you're
because you're breathing more,because the way we much we
produce our voices is throughthe breath, going through the
(12:46):
vocal cords which vibrate, andthen we resonate in the
different kind of slightly emptybody cavities.
It gives your, your resonance akind of deeper tone.
So you sound more confident.
Again, you feel more confident,but you also it just feels more
relaxed.
It's a warmer tone.
So in terms of engaging withyour audience, they're more
(13:08):
likely to warm to you becauseyou've got that kind of like
deeper, baser tones going on itis amazing how the physiology
affects the emotions.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
So I have noticed people.
They forget to breathe and thenthey feel short of breath, and
then they and it snowballs rightit goes into a whole thing.
Yeah, so this idea of focusingon the physiology to help, then
the feeling about it and thenthe delivery, and you mentioned
some non-verbal.
You mentioned the non-verbal,so the body posture maybe, or
the gestures.
Are there tips that you cangive with certain types of the
(13:40):
way you should stand or the wayyou should stand to make you
feel more confident?
Speaker 2 (13:45):
a lot of the time, people, you know again, because
you're under pressure, um, thevery kind of primeval emotions
start coming up and it you feelas though you're kind of under
attack and the the kind ofresponse that our ancestors had,
um was to the our naturalpredators, which were wild dogs,
(14:07):
bingos, wolves, jackals, umwould be to try and protect the
areas that they would go for,and they tend to go from the
neck or the groin, okay, becausethat's what most vulnerable.
So what we tend to do when we'reunder stress, under pressure,
when we're about to present, iswe tend to protect that.
So a lot of the time we do oneof two things Either we'll kind
of like, make ourselves smaller,okay, and hide those kind of
(14:28):
parts of our body, play with ourfaces, that kind of stuff, okay
, just to kind of keep thatgoing.
We'll put our hands here, handsin front, that kind of thing.
Or we'll do the other thing,which is to kind of go, you know
again, if you're being attackedby dogs, you're going to go.
Come and have a go if you thinkyou're hard enough, okay and
you're going to make yourselfmuch bigger.
So you go, you overcompensate,so you'll open up your whole
(14:50):
body and basically kind of go,I'm not afraid of you.
Okay, I'm exposing everythingbecause actually I'm stronger
than you.
And that also is a kind ofgiveaway.
When people kind of swagger onstage, you can tell that
actually it's betraying thenerves.
So, if you can, if you can have,there's a thing in acting, when
you learn acting called theclassical position, where
(15:11):
basically you stand with yourfeet underneath your knees,
underneath your hips, yourback's relaxed, and you're
basically just your hands byyour side, completely open, and
it's say it's not closed in,it's not compensated by being
too open, and it's just veryrelaxed.
And that is a as a kind ofposition that you take up, as a,
(15:34):
as you know, a kind of defaultposition doesn't mean you can't.
I mean you should be movingyour hands around, your arms
around using the stage, thespace, wherever you're working,
but as a kind of defaultposition, as a kind of like
because I'm here, I'm feelingconfident, I'm feeling relaxed.
That's a great way to be ableto start.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Because then if you feel that way, then you're going
to have that emotion that I'mconfident.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
So that physical position, that's the outside, in
bit again.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yeah, not the fake it till you, make it kind of thing
, but just make yourself feelfeel confident if I, if I stand
in a position that I am feelingtaller, then I feel more
confident.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
But that's really the kind of the fake it till.
You make it because um andagain.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
It's almost like kind of thing about imposter
syndrome yes um, and I rememberreading um, there's a british
director, really great greatBritish director, paul Richard
Eyre, who used to run theNational Theatre in the UK, and
I read his diaries, calledNational Service, about his time
in the National Theatre andthey are a great source of high
class gossip about actors.
Okay, it's a fantastic read andit's also like kind of short
(16:34):
chapters, so again, you can likeread it a bit at night and just
read a few.
And the fascinating thing washe is one of the UK's greatest
theatre directors and everypress night that he had it was
clear he couldn't watch theperformance.
He'd be behind the audiencepacing up and down, really,
(16:54):
because he was terrified thatthis time he'd be found out.
Yeah, and I think that that'simportant.
Remember, everyone feels thatthey are imposter in some way
and again, like the whole youknow, accepting that you're
nervous because everyone feelsnervous as well.
Um, so actually it's, it's justa completely natural thing so
just embrace it just so you justjust embrace it, yeah, but I
(17:17):
think that the again the thingabout the choosing the word that
focuses your kind of positiveactive word, I think that the
again the thing about thechoosing the word that focuses
you, a kind of positive activeword, I think that can help in
terms of, you know, actually,can.
I fake it till you make it.
There's another exercise, whichis quite good too, but you get
an inside out one where which iscalled I'm important, you're
important.
Again, it goes to this ideathat sometimes, when people are
(17:39):
on stage stage they kind ofdefend themselves and to get rid
of the nerves they'll kind ofgo I am so important, okay, and
they will just again bigthemselves up and alienate the
audience because they're kind ofthinking of though they're,
they're not as good as them.
Uh, there's a whole that kindof terrible old story about you
know, if you ever go for aninterview, people kind of say
(17:59):
imagine people naked.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
You know, I never like that advice.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
That's so ridiculous, right, exactly, yeah, you don't
have to do that um, or you dothe opposite thing.
Where you're going to go, youknow I'm, I'm, I'm nothing, I'm
insignificant, and the audienceis incredibly important and you
know, if you're in an interview,that's probably true.
You don't if you're feeling asthough they've got you know your
career and you're left in theirhands.
But again, it's a kind of aninside thing, an emotional thing
(18:24):
, an intellectual thing.
If you go, I'm important,you're important, and you kind
of walk on stage or thepresentation hall or wherever
you are, without thought thatyou know you have value as a
person and what you're about todo, and the audience have value.
It's a great way, okay, both tofeel good about yourself, but
also to engage with the audienceas well.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
And there's no power issue there.
It's not like I'm better, or,oh my gosh, they're judging me.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Yeah, exactly, absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
So you talked about the nonverbal.
What about verbal techniques toproject your voice?
A lot of students might saythey come up and they're so
nervous they can't get the voiceout or they can't even reach
the back of the room with theirvoice.
So what are some verbaltechniques?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
um.
Singing is good what if youcan't sing because I can't uh,
everyone can sing oh, youhaven't heard me, simon okay,
after this podcast we're gonnahave to do this um, we're gonna
go and find a bar somewhere andwe'll kind of karaoke and we're
going to.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
That's trouble.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
That's the rest that's the big one.
Um, the I mean, I meanseriously singing is great,
because to sing you have to.
Obviously it's like speaking ona continuous note, so actually
it requires more breath and thebreath again like I'm saying
before with the square breathingthing is key.
So if you, if you're really,you know, using a diaphragm and
you're really breathing deeply,then your voice will naturally
(19:44):
sound better.
There's a kind of very easytechnique where you, you can
just go and practice in the room.
You, you know you're about topresent in, and it's not about
shouting, but it's just aboutit's.
It's weird because you knowwhere you kind of go.
It shouldn't work because knowwhere's the science behind it.
But if you just, when you'retalking, you imagine your voice
(20:04):
is hitting the back of the room,it will, without necessarily
you straining or, let's say,shouting, you know it just tends
to work as a thing.
That's a great technique.
But also, I mean, particularlynowadays, you know, people are
often presenting not just infront of huge halls, but they're
presenting in a meeting room orpresenting on Zoom in some way,
(20:26):
and that becomes less of anissue, obviously.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah, yeah, so you do consulting with storytelling, I
know.
Tell the audience here aboutstorytelling and how to engage
your audience with a messagethat tells a story.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
How long have you got ?
Speaker 1 (20:41):
I know right, but that's where have you got?
Speaker 2 (20:42):
I know right.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
But that's where.
That's the presentation skillstoday.
Right, that's how to connectwith your audience.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Yeah, and I was again the same way.
I was saying, you know, I kindof wasn't necessarily ever going
to be an actor, I was nevergoing to be a communications
coach, I hadn't really got aninterest or a kind of knowledge
of storytelling.
But now I completely love itand I'm passionate about
(21:08):
storytelling.
Um, but when I first startedlooking into it I was puzzled
because it seemed that a lot ofthe stuff that was written um
made assumptions about what agood story was, and there was
almost a sense that storytellingwas something that maybe great
writers, great screenwriters did, but it wasn't necessarily
(21:28):
something that everybody coulddo.
That, you know, being creative,telling stories was in some way
special and I thought I don'tbelieve that there must be
something.
If people are touched bystories and we know they are
touched by stories all the timethere must be something going on
that, almost scientifically,you can work out yeah and just
(21:50):
at that time I was getting intothis kind of like what's going
on mode.
Um, a lot of work in terms ofevolutionary psychology and in
terms of neuroscience wasuncovering you know how we
evolved as a species and alsowhat our brains were doing.
Um, and the evolutionarypsychology is great because it
kind of gives you the kind ofbig picture about why, why our
(22:11):
brains might have evolved toactually be adapted to story,
and the neuroscience kind ofbacks it up.
So there's a kind of thingabout, like, when we have
experiences.
They talk about neurons thatfire together, wire together,
but if you have an emotionalexperience, the neurons are in
the brain and you can rememberthat in some way and you can see
that in terms of the way inwhich we learn as a species.
(22:34):
You know we have an experience,we're affected by it, either
kind of rewards or itpotentially punishes us, and we
remember that.
The good emotion or the bademotion stays with us and that
kind of is what stories are,because it's basically taking
that learning experience andgiving it to somebody else.
So our brains have adapted torespond when people it talks
(22:56):
about a particular, they don'ttalk about a particular story.
So if you know I've beenattacked by somebody, uh, in any
way, and I'm I'm telling thatstory.
I will go through thatemotional experience and you,
listening to me, because yourbrain has evolved to learn about
this will also feel the sameway and you will probably feel
that you won't go down thatalleyway.
Yeah, yeah, so we learn.
(23:17):
I mean, storytelling isbasically learning for free.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah, it is.
I was saying the challenge thatsome of the students have that
they share with me is that theyhave a message they have to give
, they have to tell something,and then maybe we can have them
figure out a story they have togive.
They have to tell something andthen maybe we could have them
figure out a story they want togive to their audience.
But in a business presentation,a lot of students will say to
me how do I stay present?
Because when I'm starting, Ipractice, I prepare, but when I
(23:40):
start to share whatever I haveto share, I forget I'm.
I'm not present in the moment.
My mind goes to other things,like they're looking at me,
they're judging me, so how anytips for helping a student or
anyone stay present in theirpresentation focused on the
message and giving it, not howthey're being perceived?
Speaker 2 (24:01):
um, well, the technique I've mentioned at the
beginning, the thing aboutchoosing the word again,
focusing not on you but on some.
And if you, and again in thesame way, we're saying that, you
know, everyone feels nervous,everyone feels under pressure,
everyone feels as though they'rean imposter, probably everyone
at some point is going to fluffit, they're going to make a
mistake and again, you justaccept that and live with that
(24:25):
because, everyone does it andit's not a big deal.
So, again, being able to forgiveyourself and knowing it's going
to happen, knowing that the,the audio visual is not going to
work, yeah, knowing thatsuddenly there's a firearm,
whatever, uh, and that's thekind of excuse, like something
might go wrong it always does Iexpect it to happen, right yeah
and and I got that question froma lot of students what happens
if I forget?
Speaker 1 (24:45):
what happens?
And I said, well, what's theworst that could happen?
So you forget.
Your audience will probablyhelp you if you say I well, I
was just talking about, what wasI just talking about?
And you hope someone says, oh,you were saying whatever, yeah,
absolutely so just to be lighteron yourself, forgive yourself
Completely.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Also, I mean just on a very basic level.
I mean having cards.
So if you try and learnsomething, that's generally not
a great idea yeah, generally nota great idea because you know
you're kind of worrying abouthaving to learn it and being
word perfect and all that kindof thing, and also it probably
won't come out as being as kindof natural and authentic as
you'd like it to be.
So just having a good bulletpoint.
(25:21):
So if you do lose your place,you've got your next bullet
point there and you can go on tothe next one.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Yep, it's kind of having that picture that you
want the story, that you want totell your audience the main
points, but how you get therethat those words could be
different yeah you don't have tomemorize it.
In fact, you really can'tmemorize it, because it's not
going to be an actual, and youwill forget yeah, that's right,
and I just forget their linesthe whole time.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
But we just don't know about it because we don't
know the script, um, but so wait, when you're an actor and you
forget your lines, do you justad-lib?
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Do you just fill in the blanks?
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah, you have to kind of.
Hopefully you manage to kind ofget back to what you actually
were saying in the first place.
But yeah, there are momentswhen obviously you go completely
hot and cold.
When you go you can't rememberyour lines, but actually you
will get back.
But obviously the whole pointis that the more you do it
professionally, professionally,the more you know that something
(26:13):
will go right at the end it'sgoing to be okay.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Well, even even with presentations in the business
sense, the more you do it and Ishare this with students the
better you'll feel about it.
You may not end up loving it,but you'll have more confidence
and at the end, it's.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
It's that, and the other thing I would say is that,
in terms of learning, if youlearn your opening line and you
learn your closing line, so youcan deliver those completely
confidently, that's greatbecause, in terms of what they
call the primacy and the recencyeffect, people remember the
first impressions and theyremember the last thing about
you.
So if you get that right, whocares what happens in the middle
(26:48):
?
but actually you've made a greatfirst impression and you've
left people with a great lastingimpression yeah and that's
because they it's only what acouple sentences it's easy to do
yeah, that's like that quotefrom Maya Angelou.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
I'll probably get it wrong, but people will forget
what you said, forget what youdid, but they'll always remember
how you made them feelabsolutely right.
I think I butchered that, butit's something like no, no, it's
good I will butcher that too.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, well, that's a great one.
Yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
So, as we sum up, here is what is the big takeaway
?
If you had to give one tip tosomeone who's in front of you
saying simon, I, I'm justterrified of presenting.
How do I start?
What's the?
What's the baby step I do tostart, or is it different for
everybody?
Speaker 2 (27:28):
yeah, I think it's, I mean it obviously.
It is them everyone's kind ofgot you know different.
I think it's, I mean itobviously.
It is everyone's kind of gotyou know different issues,
whether it's like speaking tooquickly or they kind of they
move too quickly or they theykind of they're voiding all
things um I mean, I think, that,um, maybe it takes a little bit
of courage, but not too muchcourage.
Uh, if you can video yourselfbefore you give the speech and
(27:50):
then you watch it back, andmaybe watch it back with a
friend in some way, and they cangive you some feedback as well,
that can be a really great wayfor you to actually make that
progress and also to go hey,actually it wasn't that bad.
I'm feeling confident about it.
So that can be a great way tomake sure, because it's
(28:12):
rehearsal and the point is thatno actor would ever go on stage
willingly without rehearsal.
So a lot of times you find,particularly in businesses,
corporations, not-for-profits,people will spend a long time
working on the content of whatthey do, but very little time on
(28:32):
the actual delivery, and that'skey.
The delivery is key.
I mean just one thing, ifyou've got time, is it's often
really important to think about,when you give a presentation,
what the different channels ofcommunication are, in the sense
that there is what people callthe deck, like the PowerPoint
(28:54):
deck, which is often full ofinformation and people want it
as a kind of referenceafterwards.
That's fine, but then there arethe slides that you show, and
the slide shouldn't be the sameas the deck, because the slides
are your and the audience'sjourney through what you're
telling them the journey butactually the most important part
(29:14):
of the presentation is you,because you're the person that
is going to give the informationthat people want to warm to, to
feel good about in some way,and if there's like facts and
figures they want to find outafterwards go to the deck
exactly, but that's afterwards,in the moment in presentation.
It's all about you.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
That's great.
Thank you so much, Simon.
This has been wonderful and Iknow I have definitely tips to
bring back to my students.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
My pleasure.
They had a journey here and agreat holiday.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yes, thank you so much.
Well, I want to thank the crewhere too.
You guys have been great.
There's a lot of you.
Thank you so much, and we'llconclude this.
I want to say thank you to ourlisteners.
If you found this contentvaluable, please subscribe and
share this with a friend, anduntil next time.
Thanks for listening to theBusiness Edge.
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