Episode 284 - Albums that Shaped Us w/ Sarah Black

Sarah Black is Back to talk about Albums That Shaped Us.

They talk Fall Out Boy, Marshall Crenshaw, Chris Whitley and...TAYLOR SWIFT!

Episode Transcript

(00:17):
From Jappetto Studios in New Freedom,Pennsylvania. Welcome to the Cosmic Hippetto podcast,
your home for inclusive, positive geekculture where we talk about movies,
comics, music, books, andwhatever else we feel like. Please welcome
your host, Drawers getting thrown athim wherever he goes. Brad Mendenhall.

(00:45):
Hey kids, it is episode twoeighty four of the Cosmic Shapetto podcast.
Thrill absolutely thrilled for the return ofSarah Black. She is one of my
favorites. She is smart and thoughtfuland a complete delight. Amazingly, she
likes talking to me. We aregoing to talk about albums that shaped us.

(01:08):
Where else can you find a showtalking about Taylor Swift and Chris Whitley
That is rain any Who, let'sjump in. Very excited returning to the

(01:30):
Cosmic Japeo podcast. Dear friend,excellent podcaster and a person who knows their
music. Sarah Black is back.Sarah, how you doing. I am
great? Thank you so much forhaving me. I'm really excited to be
here again. Always love your show. It's always so much fun. And
what's interesting is we've been trying toget everything getting you back for a little

(01:53):
while. You have an insane schedule, yeah, trying to keep ahead of
work and everything else, and itwas a little tricky. And when we
sort of set this up a whileago, we talked about returning to our
sort of music that sort of formsour love of music, and you know,

(02:19):
the albums that shape us. Yes, I suggested to I called out
two albums that are very important tome. Chris Whitley is Living with the
Law. This is not a wellknown album. No, Chris Whitley said
sadly, he passed away without achievinganything that could be considered stardom. He
is a performer who has received alot of love from people in the industry.

(02:44):
John Mayer, who is the subjectof a song by somebody that you
chose as a fan of Chris Whitley, actually has done one of his songs
in concert. Keith Richards Dave Matthewswere all avowed fans of Whitley, but
because his music never seemed to alignwith what was happening in music, and

(03:07):
he had pretty well documented substance abuseissues, it seemed like he was always
getting stalled out. And then alsoMarshall Crench. I also called out Marshall
Crenshaw's debut album from the eighties adecent size success and a lot of people
thought it was going to lead tomore starting for Marshall Kreshall Marha Crenshall is

(03:28):
still doing it, still putting outmusic, still touring. He's had almost
had more success as a songwriter.He co wrote the excellent song Till I
Hear It from You by the JimBlosses. Yes, very familiar with that
one. Marshall Crenshall never became abig star. A little bit of trivia
for the people who've been listening toKaiswie Chapelle podcast for a long time.

(03:50):
Both Chris Whitley and Marshall Crenshall havebrothers in the music industry who have both
been on this podcast. Oh that'sawesome. Robert Crench who was relatively recently
on the show and he was thedrummer for the album Marshall Marshall Cronshaw's self
titled debut. And but Sarah,you you called out to really interesting artists

(04:12):
share share with the listeners who youwanted us to talk about. So I
chose to talk about two who area little bit more recent and I've actually
even though they've been around for decadestalking about fall Up Boy and Taylor Swift.
I've only become really, really bigmore than casual fans of both of
these artists in recent years. SoI thought that it would be fun to

(04:35):
talk about that since they're both ontoward this summer, and well, they
both just finished the US legs oftheir tours and I had the opportunity to
see them both Fallout Boys album follyAd and Taylor Swift's most recent album,
Midnights. We're gonna end on TaylorSwift because there's a lot to talk about.

(04:57):
Yes, I want to start withfallout Boy. Is this is?
This album is not one that Iwas particularly familiar with. My interaction with
fall up Boy sort of begins andends with the album that had the I
think what you would consider their bigsong, Going Down Swinging Yes, Sugar,
We're Going Down, which was fromUnder the Quirk Tree, which is

(05:19):
a really good song in my opinion. I think it's one of the most
perfect pop songs of all time.I can listen to, and I don't
say that hyperbolic, you know,I listened to like a lot of music.
Top forty is my thing. Ithink it's pretty near a perfect song.
I really like this album Fallow Up, and it makes me think a

(05:39):
little deeper about fall Up Boy,because they don't get while they have a
significant fandom, they don't get alot of respect or critical love. Yes,
so even from me, So Ireally love Sugar We're Going Down was
played all over the radio in twothousand and three when it came out,

(06:00):
and so I was a huge fanof the song. And I even they're
like one of my karaoke bands,so the saint a scene, things like
that I would love to sing atkaraoke. They have just a lot of
their their bigger hits dance, dance, and I love these songs, but
they have They're so much deeper thanthat, and I didn't realize that until

(06:25):
recent years. So I was moreof a casual fan. My twenty year
old daughter is a obsessed with FalloutBoy. So everything I learned and the
reason why I'm such a big FalloutBoy fan is because of her. And
it was actually a couple of summersago she I had traveled to Pittsburgh and

(06:45):
as a bonding thing, we werejust speaking back and forth and she's like,
you should really listen to all ofFallout Boys albums, and then we
were just doing top threes for eachalbum back and forth, and so I
started with their very first evening Outwith Your Girlfriend, which they actually made
in three days and they don't evenreally consider it their first album all the

(07:08):
way through their most recent album,So Much for Stardusts, which I think
is phenomenal, And so I listenedto every single album and we talked about
all of the songs back and forth, and I love all of the albums.
I think part of the reason,and which also in my opinion,

(07:29):
is similar to Taylor Swift, isthat they've done a really great job at
reinventing and reinventing and just trying differentthings and just growing while still being enough
of themselves right, because sometimes musicalartists will change so much that their fans
they either have to get new fansor their fans end up becoming upset.

(07:53):
But then you also don't want togive the fans just the same album over
and over again. So I thinkthat follow Boy has done a great job
of that, like doing reinvention whilealso being very true to follow up Boy.
But Folly Ado, which was thealbum that I chose, I love
the most. I'd say it's themost experimental of their albums, and it

(08:16):
was a very difficult time for theband, so they released the album.
Pete Wentz had been suffering with someaddiction issues. The band had basically put
out like five albums in a veryjust back to back to back. Had
been pouring the whole time. AndPatrick Stump, who's the lead vocalist and

(08:39):
Pete Wentz, primarily does the writingfor the band. He's writes the lyrics
and Patrick Stump is the vocalist,and he put everything into this album.
And it was actually not as poorlyreceived from critics as I thought that it
was when I went back and wasin critics reviews again, but it was

(09:01):
very poorly received by the fans andthat really hurt them, and they even
when they tried to tour this album, people were throwing things at them on
stage, their fans were booing them, and as you mentioned, follow up
was really popular. Like they're aniche, they get categorized as emo,
but they're definitely more like pop punk, pop rock, pop rock. But

(09:26):
there they've maintained their popularity because ofthis very devoted fan base. So to
have their fans turn on them withthis album. It actually led to the
breakup of the band and they didn'tput anything out for more than five years.
There's such an interesting group with aninteresting history because they don't get the

(09:46):
love, but they do have thisreally strong fan base. It's so hard
to be it's really hard to bea band or a performer that exists for
years because you're right, it's ifyou if you don't vary from the formula,

(10:07):
then you're just doing the same thing. But if you do vary from
the formula, then you're you're notdoing what the fans want. Often those
variances can feel very forced. Oneof the first one of the telltale signs
that our performer realizes. There's twotell tale two tell tale things a performer

(10:30):
does when you know, oh,they've run out of there's no longer a
lot of gas in the tank.They do a country album, or they
do an album of standards. Theyare usually not always, but usually that
means they are there's just nothing leftin the tank. They're no longer creatively

(10:50):
at their peak, and they're justgoing to rely on people's affections for someone
else's music. The Two and aHalf, The Two and a Half one
if they do an album of Dylancovers or a Christmas album maybe, Oh
Christmas albums are They're pretty bad.And by the way, people that I
like have done all these things.Oh yeah, me too. I'm a

(11:13):
Bob Dylan fan. Bob Dylan hasdone a Christmas album which is if you
listen to us, is his hissane as you think it would be.
Uh. And he did an albumof standards. But Bob Dylan gets away
with it because he's Bob Dylan.But he has had literally five to ten
year periods in his career where hewas just phoning it in. But I

(11:37):
think what hurts? What is hurt? Fall up boy? I think it's
tough to be a pop punk bandin the same era as Wheezer and the
American idiot band Oh Day. Ialways joke, jokingly say that Green Day

(11:58):
started pop punk, which obviously theydidn't. It was surround a lot longer
before Green Day. But Green Day'sfirst album I think really did revolutionized just
bringing that style of music in themid nineties to the forefront into top forty
and was a precursor to all ofthe two thousands pop punk bands that we

(12:22):
saw, and weez are one ofthe best bands I've ever seen live.
Also, of course phenomenal band.Those two bands get so much critical love,
it's hard to be the third bandin that triumvirate. And also,
I guess it, and this isn'tfair, but I think also the band

(12:43):
and Pete Wentz became a little bitof a celebrity. He married Ashley Simpson.
He became a little bit of tabloidfodder and that shouldn't matter. And
I think that was part of theguests argument or part of the stress,
the strife that was going on withinFollow Boy. That also led to them

(13:05):
breaking up for a good while becausePatrick is very quiet, he's very anti
tabloid fodder. He's very I thinkhe just wanted to make music and not
have that type of attention directed tothe band. And Pete Wentz is very
in your face and he's they're they'redifferent. They work really really well creatively

(13:28):
together, but they're different. SoI'm not sure how many people know.
But Pete Wentz is a brilliant businessmanin my opinion, he basically found brendan
jury. He's the reason Panic atthe Disco exists. He's also found and

(13:50):
helped develop a lot of other bands. One of those bands is water Parks,
who I also got to see thisyear, who are phenomenal. Love
them and so yeah, Pete One'sjust a really good business meant very very
smart, and also it writes brilliantlyrics. Most of those lyrics are not

(14:11):
the ones that people would know though, in songs like Dance Damps or maybe
the Phoenix, or ones that aremore popular but are more of their deep
cuts. I got trouble thoughts andsave the students to match what can't what

(14:35):
can't? Whoa you never catches?So just let me be to the husband

(14:56):
two people American still um back,Yeah, still palms. The lyrics are

(15:18):
very good, very solid. There'sa wonderful workmanlike quality where the pentameter solid,
the rhyme schemes are solid. Thelyrics also have a fun little bit
of winking humor to them, yes, which I think might be another thing
that sort of hurts where they're anemo punk band and everything's supposed to be

(15:39):
serious. Green Dany notoriously very serious. When bands sort of have that humor
to their music, they aren't takingthey aren't taking seriously, despite how hard
it is to do that. It'sthe sort of thing is Barnaked Ladies probably

(16:00):
one of the more famous examples ofthis. Bernaked Ladies has a lot of
humor in their music and they're dismissedfor that despite the fact that it's solid
lyrically they're barely solid. They alsohave plenty of music that doesn't have that.
You know, they have plenty ofsongs that are straight ahead, but
they get a little bit dismissed because, oh, they're the wacky Canadians that

(16:23):
do the song about Brian Wilson andeverything like that. Again not fair.
It's actually a real challenge to includea little bit of sort of bitter levity
into the into your work. AndI love better levity. So that's probably
why like these artists, and it'sprobably why for the for the kind of

(16:45):
rabbit fan fan base that they dohave. That's the big reason why they
have it. I I just reallylove that there's a story arc to folly
you Do, not the album itself, but there's a story arc to follow

(17:07):
you du and that it was thealbum that they released right before again their
fans turned on them. They weregetting booed off stage to not playing for
years to in their tour. There'sso much for a Stardust tour this summer,
and actually both follow Up Boy andTaylor Swift have done this, and
it's a very smart move, whichis to have bonus tracks or like bonus

(17:32):
performances rather so that each city getstheir own song that's not on the set
list. Follow Out Boy did thisas Magic eight Ball, so as part
of their show, they have likea pick Magic eight ball come onto the
screen and then they asked the Magicgate Ball questions and then they end up
with the end up playing a song. Sometimes they'll do to Magic eight Balls.

(17:56):
Taylor Swift did hers just as abonus acoustics that we're she played too
before her last era, but withFallout Boy, the Magic eight Ball songs
were mostly all folly Ado songs,so they hadn't played anything from this album
on their subsequent tours when they didget back together, like with their Mania

(18:17):
tour, they didn't really play anythingfrom Folly Doo, And when they just
play other shows or as part offestivals, they don't play anything from Folly
Do So for this tour it almostseemed very therapeutic for the band because the
fans have come around on this album, and now it's one of the most
beloved albums, so it's almost likeit was ahead of its time too,

(18:41):
like the fans weren't ready for it, but after they had years to sit
with it and process it, nowit's so beloved, so all over Reddit,
all over social media. Again verysmart marketing strategy from these artists.
It's also generating conversation like what arethey going to play tonight? They've never
played saying Wayam's which is my favoritesong from fali Adoo, Like they've never

(19:04):
played this song, or they've neverplayed that song. Are we going to
get this as our bonus track tonight? Which just generated so much buzz and
discussion, but also felt very therapeuticfrom my perspective for the band to get
to play all of these songs thathad once gotten them Buddhof stage and now
their fans were so excited to hearthem and like begging them, like please

(19:26):
play this song, please play thatsong, and then just getting such great
reception. Then we went to Sarahand I, my daughter and I went
to both nights of follow up Boyin La and the second night she had
a song bang the Doldrums That onewas actually from Infinity on High, but

(19:48):
it was a song that she hadjust wanted to hear that they had never
played. Infinity on High was theiralbum in between from Under the Cork Tree
and Faliado, and that's the onethat they played, so out of their
whole discography, she got the onethat she was hoping that they would play.
And just seeing the look on herface when she realized they were playing

(20:08):
the song that she was just hopingthat they would play was so awesome.
And just having people, you know, all other fans have their just share
videos and share their experiences on Reddit. But they ended up playing. I
believe every song from folly A doduring that during their tour at one point

(20:30):
or another, as like their bonustrack or their Magic Cable performances. I
love that the performers who an listen. Obviously we all want to go see
the hits. If def Leppard doesn'tdo pour some sugar on me, people
are going to get upset. Yeah, but there's so much room in an

(20:51):
hour and a half to two hoursset to sprinkle something in, especially when
we have a dedicated fan base.I went to a wonderful answer. It
was. It was called the paperAirplane tour for Ben Folds. It was
a solo show. It was justBen Folds and a piano. And what
he did is he had his setand then he took a twenty minute break.

(21:15):
Everyone could file out into the lobbyand they had paper and pencil and
you could write down the song youwanted to hear, fold up the paper
into an airplane and throw it onstage. He came out, he grabbed
the first six that he did.He threw away. The stuff that was
ridiculous is like, no, I'mnot doing hit Me Baby one more time

(21:38):
because I don't know it. Buthe was able to do some really out
there songs. Now he had ahuge advantage because because it was a solo
show, he didn't have to worryabout rehearsing with a band or anything like
that, which could be a challenge. I know Bruce Springsteen has done the
same thing where fans will bring signsfor different songs they want to hear,

(22:00):
and he'll say it's like, oh, okay. And I saw a really
interesting video where the song come alittle bit closer. It was in the
second Guardians of the Galaxy movie.Basically just like it was a story song
about a woman saying, come alittle bit closer your mind kind of man.

(22:22):
It's one of those that you ifyou heard it, you'd know it.
And you can see him like,oh okay, Bruce Springsteen saying it's
like okay, we can play this, and he just turned to the band
and you can see them working throughthe different parts to the song and then
he played it, which was reallyamazing to see, Like they take five
to ten minutes, but the bandis so tight and so skilled that they
were able to noodle through composing thissong. I love that stuff. Yeah,

(22:45):
me too. But what was thesize of the venue that fall On
Boy played? Follow Boy played about? Oh my gosh, I'm completely blinking
the name. It's where LAFC playsthe soccer team in LA and I need
to look this up. I don'tknow why my brain just or I'll look

(23:06):
at up and Taylor Swift was itso fine? There's a pro soccer that's
a huge venue. Oh yeah,it was a huge stadium. It was
a stadium show, So it wasthere a lot of credit because they're not
at their commercial you wouldn't think they'reat their commercial peak. No, they've

(23:26):
become a very successful stadium level legacyact. That's that's that's sort of refined
air. So good for them.Yeah, I thought it was phenomenal how
many people turned out. I thinkthey also had great opening acts, So

(23:47):
Bring Me the Horizon has a veryrabid fan base. Two and they almost
never play, and they played,they were one of the opening acts,
but they did almost like a fullhour set, so that that definitely helped.
And other opening acts that they hadRoyal and the Serpent who I Love

(24:10):
And they also had Newfound Glory onNight one when I Went and the Academy
Is and both of those bands againvery popular emo bands back in the two
thousands, but again like definitely notat the peak of their careers either.
But these are bands that if peoplelove them, if they grew up with
them, nostalgia don't get to hearthem often would have also helped to to

(24:36):
attract fans as well. The showGood Back and Go Home and Blight,

(25:00):
Stiffy Bottle Again and Fline to SteelTravel with Shot, Didn't I Needn't,
I didn't I need, I need, I didn't I need I don't.
Just fun to be fun, butno, some one else's happier. See

(25:21):
Away the Sun Side Underway band Awaydoesn't go away, just say I will
never end up like him on myback already and cheaper chilling in this way

(25:45):
will always know people were too jumpinto this album if they have been suspicious
of fall Out Boy because there's toomuch eyeliner and Pete Wentz was married to
the other Simpson kid. What songwould you recommend or what three songs would

(26:06):
you recommend from that album that theyshould dial into. Okay, so at
first I would say head first,Slide into Cooperstown because Patrick Stump's vocals are
incredible. This song was so goodlive, but it sounds amazing on the
album as well. I love thelyrics. I think it's just it's such

(26:27):
a phenomenal song. Mostly I thinkstill for Patrick because I personally feel like
Patrick Stump has one of the greatestvoices in rock, and I feel like
he doesn't get that respect. Soit's more it's like he's so good that
sometimes people might not even think aboutthe fact that he's so good. I

(26:52):
don't know if that makes sense,but if you really listen to what he's
doing vocally, it's incredible. Becausea lot of rock artists don't really have
the greatest voices. They have charisma, they're interesting, they can sit.
But I think Patrick Stump has sucha good voice. Yeah, that was
something that struck me listening to thisis like, I didn't realize how good

(27:12):
a singer he is, but he'sa little bit of a belter fall Out
Boy. And this is going tosound more dismissive than it's meant to be.
Fall Out Boy. They don't havea guitarist that shreds right, they
don't have Keith Moon on drums.No, they are solid. Yes,
no one in the band is spectacular. And I thought it was like,

(27:34):
oh, but they have they haveHookie, Their songs have good hooks and
the lyrics are solid and clever.But I was like, oh no,
the singing is actually pretty exceptional.Thank you. Yes, I agree.
And what I really really love aboutPatrick Stump in respect about him even more
is if you listen to the firsttwo albums, he was not He did

(27:57):
not, so he actually not wantto be the singer a Fallout Boy.
Pete wants to put the band togetherand Patrick auditioned and he wanted to be
the drummer and Pete wanted him tosing, so he ended up joining the
band as the singer, and onthe first two albums his voice was rough.

(28:18):
He put a lot of work,Like this wasn't just a person who
was born with raw talent to sing. He's somebody who put a lot of
time and effort into his craft andI respect that a lot, and he
just gets better. But like hisvoice gets better and better on each album

(28:38):
Mania, which is an album thata lot of people kind of pan although
people are starting to come around onthat album too. He has some incredible
vocals on songs like Kevin Skate andChurch and Bishop's Knife Trick. But yeah,
back to to Folly Ado. Iwould say, if you like good
rock vocals, number one, headfirst slide into Cooper's Town. If you

(29:00):
want to hear a very pretty slow, sad song, I would say what
It Catched Donnie is a great one. And my personal favorite is Wam's.
Wams is an odd song with multipleparts to it. It's one of those

(29:22):
ones that you just really have tohear and experience for yourself, and the
band didn't really ever play it becauseit's so personal. It was. It's
really about the breakup of the bandand just the struggles that they were going
through and I think it's one oftheir most emo songs. It just hits

(29:45):
me at my core every single timeI hear it. And they actually did
not play the whole thing on theirtour, but they did about a minute
to a minute and a half ofit on piano, And when I I
learned that they did that, Iwas just like, on the one hand,
I was so so happy that theywere able to perform at least part

(30:06):
of the song as part of likea piano medley that they do at each
of their shows on this tour,but also was so sad, like I
would have given anything, Like ifI knew that they were going to play
Whams even for a minute and ahalf, the sounds insane, but I
probably would have gone to that cityjust to watch it. So yeah,
that was my personal favorite on thealbum. So I want to move on

(30:30):
to I threw two albums at youagain. Chris Whitley, in my opinion,
criminally Unknown passed away with a dedicatedbut very small fan base. And
Marshall Crenshaw, who had a niceflip on the radar with his first album

(30:51):
and it's had a nice career eversince. And let's start with Chris Whitley's
Living with the Law that was hisdebut album. Well, first off,
has Chris Whitley ever been on yourradar? You know music? But this
is this is a deep cut.I've heard of Chris Whitley, but he
wasn't really on my radar as suchin terms of somebody that I ever really

(31:14):
listened to before listening to the albumswhen you when you mentioned them, I
did have a student who is afan of Chris Whitley time, and that's
actually how I heard a little bitabout him. But yeah, not too
much. You'll have ninety nine percentof people you run into will never have
heard of him, and then theone person, and you'll have that one
person who's can sometimes be borderline crazyabout it. Yes, when you listen

(31:40):
to this album and and you arean unabashed pop fan, you love pop
music, and you understand it andyou examine it, this is not a
pop album. No, when youheard this for the first time, how
did it connect with you? Sowhen I heard it, I also don't
want this to sound in dismissive ornegative way. My honest reaction to it

(32:05):
was, this is something that Iwould listen to as background like, it's
very pleasant background, Like I willput on this album and be doing a
lesson plan or I could be puttingon this album and like cleaning the house
or doing something. I don't knowif that makes sense. And I realized
that could sound dismissive and that's nothow I mean it. No, there's

(32:28):
something to be said for it canbe a little bit soothing and doesn't jangle
the nerves. So there's certainly alot of validity that. What's funny is
he went from this. His nextalbum, Living with the Law, came
out in ninety one. His nextalbum, DN of Ecstasy, they came
out in ninety five, was theopposite of that, where was a three

(32:52):
person power trio with a lot offeedback and a lot of electric guitars and
a lot of craziness because he wantedto get away from being background music.
So it's it's interesting that you saythat. There's very true. It's it's
there was a lot of acoustic doughbroguitars in this. Yeah. I did

(33:14):
like the fact that it had kindof a dark fub to it, just
it it almost felt emo in itsown way, but just in a very
like, dark, understated way.And I do like music like Scott.
I don't know if that makes sense, No, it does well. A
lot of great blue songs, alot of great acoustic blues. You listen

(33:37):
to there, it's can be pleasantto hear. The chord progressions are soothing,
and the acoustic guitar is an instrumentthat puts you at ease. But
then you if you listen to somany of those songs are incredibly dark,

(33:59):
many about many songs about men killingtheir wives, girlfriends or whatever, and
they're actually, oh, this isincredibly dark. And with a lot of
Chris Whitley's music, there's a lotof that. I mean, he has
a song about called Poison Girl,which is basically about a guy getting involved

(34:20):
with the wrong woman in town,and there's a line it's like, Mama,
don't know what I've done for thepoison girls, Like, oh,
okay, he killed someone he shouldnot have for this woman. That stuff
that doesn't reveal itself until subsequent listens. Often. Yes, Well, it's
so funny that you mentioned that one, because that was a track title that

(34:42):
I had written down that just stuckwith me, and it was one that
when I'd first listened through it likewent back and just did another listen through
over Holly Baby, Where I Comefrom is a poisoned girl, poison girl.

(35:45):
Sister made a selling business sweet dickdown for girl. She's a poison
girl, poison girl. Mabewa town? Why she gone under away town?

(36:12):
Why she has some trick on sayingsit. Chris Whitley had a very interesting
career. Partially, he wasn't agood He wasn't at depth or interested in
chasing trends, so so much ofhis music falls in between the cracks where
this wasn't a pop album, itwasn't a rock album, It wasn't like

(36:36):
it, It was just what thehell is it? That happened a lot
during his career. I'm sure youwouldn't know better, but maybe that hurt
his marketability and made him not aswell known as he could have found of
people didn't know what fox to stickhim in or where to play him.
Yeah, it was, and hetalked about it in interviews. Again,

(36:59):
his substance if use issues caused alot of problems. I mean there was
a four year gap between these albumsbecause he was rebelling against this album.
He did want to do something completelydifferent. He went through rehab, and
then he was having problems getting theright producers for the next album, and
he was also really they were alsotrying to portray portray him as a heart

(37:24):
throb, and while he certainly hada bit of charisma, he wasn't He
wasn't someone whose face you would seeon the front cover of GQ. He's
a good looking guy, though goodlooking guy, but sort of a unique
good looking. What was funny isprobably the closest thing he had is one

(37:47):
of the things that sort of gothim a little bit of forward motion is
the one song Kicked the Stones wasused for the movie Thelma and Louise Cool
and specifically that song played when BradPitt and folks. It's hard to remember,

(38:08):
but Delman Louise rab Brad Pitt wasa god. Yes, he was
the best looking person on the planet. He had charmed for days, a
great smile, great looking and hewas a twentysothing guy with a fantastic physique.

(38:29):
And the song Kicked the Stones playedduring the love scene between brad Pitt
and Gina Davis. It was agreat song for the specific sort of scene
that was and the thumb and Louissoundtrack sold well. It was a buzzy
movie that made a good amount ofmoney, and they were trying to sort

(38:51):
of tie into that with Chris Whitley, like making him a sex symbol,
which was something that he was notcomfortable with. He was he's very shot.
I had a chance to briefly meethim on several occasions. Very nice
guy, very quiet, did notseem particularly I've told his story where I'm

(39:15):
I was, and it was wellpast the point of this album where his
career wasn't going in a great direction. He was opening at a small venue
in Towson, Maryland for the bandGovernment Mule. When you're opening for Government
Mule your career, and not todisparage Government Mule is a perfectly fine jam
band, but you know they weren'tplaying stadiums. So I walked by the

(39:39):
venue and I was going to seeI wasn't interested in seeing Government Mule.
I just wanted to see Chris Whitley. I walked by the venue and sitting
in front was Chris Whitley. Hewas reading a book and I stopped.
I was like, what the hell? And I turned around. I was
like, mister Whitley, and hejust had this look like, oh crap,
and he said he actually said,this is like, you know,

(40:00):
since I was the opener, Ididn't think anyone would recognize me and I
could stay out here and read,which was his way of saying, why
don't you leave me alone? Yes, And I was very I wasn't trying
to pastor him, but I talkedwith him a little bit and it's like,
oh, I'm just a big fan. I'm looking forward to seeing you.
I don't want to bother you.It's like he you know, your
your music has really inspired me.And he plays what's called a resonator guitar,

(40:22):
and the people who aren't familiar,it's a guitar looks like as a
hub cap in the middle of it, which gives us this interesting acoustic guitar
with a sort of a weird metallicsound. And I told him, you
know, I love your music somuch. I actually went and I bought
a resonator and that actually caught hisinterest and he just stops like, aren't
they great that you just play asingle note and it has so much music

(40:45):
to it. And he talked withme for a couple of minutes, and
then I said, well, thanksa lot. And I've been ado and
it made for a nice moment.That's awesome. I would recommend Poison Girls,
a great song Living with the Law, which is the open the title
track is very good, and BigSky Country, which is the closest thing

(41:08):
he ever had to a hit.They made a music video for it.
It charted, It charted on somealternative radio charts, and it's a great
slow song, which I think arehard to find because slow songs tend to
be have a certain sameness. Yeah, it's it's a very pretty song,
very pretty song. It's been coveredin concert by John Mayer and Bruce Springsteen.

(41:34):
I would love for a popular artist. I would love for I've actually
said this before on this podcast.I would love I think John Mayer would
be well served to do proper recordingsof that or any other song from Chris
Whitley, because I think it Ithink it would benefit both mister Whitley's legacy

(41:57):
and John Mayer. I think wouldhelp fill out one of his albums.
Now when this is over, overand through and all them changes help come
in past. I wanna meet youin the Big Sky Country. I just

(42:20):
wanna prove mama looking less here.I'm like Hallelujah in the Big Skyguntry,
just like Forever and Ever is wildto begin in over in the Big Skyglanty
and be kissing time is se samegood Bye, Oh God, it's all

(42:52):
been done. Let me tell youwhy, because you know my mom,
I can't can't see that. Ican't fitch you got you can't tell me

(43:19):
to watch you. All I cando is wonder why. Someday somewhere,
come be somewhere, ye now,come be somewhere. Maybe I'll understand you.
Now. The other album that Isuggested, they're very sure retro pop

(43:43):
album. So I'm curious to seehow Marshall how you connected with the worker
of Marshall Prenshaw because he does alot of great three minute pop rock songs.
Yeah, he's definitely a lot morepoppy. I feel he has more
hooks. I hadn't really known himat all. I hadn't really known him

(44:05):
at all. I'm not sure whythat is. Maybe some day Someway was
one of his bigger hits. Yeah, that's that's the hit. Yeah,
He's had other songs that have maybecharted a little bit, but someday,
some way has it charted well?It's worked his way into a couple of

(44:29):
movies every now and then. Iremember once I went to an Orioles game
and of course they always playing musicover the PA, and they actually played
some day someway, which makes meinsufferable. It's like I know that I
just start word vomit of all thefacts about the song and the album,
which is by the something I stilldo all the time. And now I

(44:49):
have kids, so I get toreally irritate people when I do this.
Nice dear kids like Marshall Crunshaw,have you been able to like transfer?
No, my kids do not likeany music I like. I do not
take it personal, right, Ido not expect them to, and I

(45:14):
do my absolute level best to enjoywhen I can respect regardless their music,
because I remember being a kid andmy music being sort of dismissed by my
parents. I've fantastic parents, butyou know it's a parent thing, right,
He's like, what's that noise?Yes? I try never to what's

(45:35):
that noise? To my kids?Me too. I was pretty good at
that up until about five years atan I'm kidding. I think there comes
a time and like everyone's life,and now that I'm in my later mid
forties where I'm like, I wasreally doing great with like all the pop,
all the top forty. I loveit until about five years and now
I still like some of it.I do still like a lot of it,

(45:58):
but some of it's a little bitYeah, I'm like, oh no,
I hit my parents. Stay Yeah, this is not being created for
me. That's exactly what I did. How did you like this album?
I think I liked this album maybeon a personal level, a little bit
more than the Chris Whitley album becauseit sounded a little bit more like something

(46:21):
I would listen to. Although nowhearing you talk about Chris Whitley, I
feel like maybe he's somebody that justneeds more time. Like there are a
lot of albums and a lot ofthings where maybe I just need to listen
to something more times, and thenI end up going from liking it and
respecting it to really loving it.Where Marshall Crenshaw for me, felt a

(46:45):
little bit more immediately accessible, ifthat makes sense. There She Goes The
album starts so well with There SheGoes again in some Day some way.
Those are songs that they're so hookladen, are deceptively simple sounding, although
they're actually trickier songs musically then youwould then you would expect. So that

(47:12):
has a great one to punch,and he's just he sings about girls and
being in love. It's very universalstuff. Yeah, and I love good
love songs and good hooks. Yeah, songs with a good hook, something
that I can just put on andafter like one or two times, you
can already start singing along to it. None of the songs on the album

(47:34):
go longer than three minutes ten seconds. He is not putting together any opus.
It's all right. I'm gonna giveyou the intro, the verse,
the hook, the chorus, andthen we're gonna do that twice, and
we're gonna play it out and downto the next song. It's it's quite
a bit of fun. Sometimes thosesongs don't necessarily have the greatest amount of

(47:57):
meat on the bone. Yeah,but they don't know why have to write
like some of the songs have aninteresting second life to them. The second
to last song on the album iscalled not for Me. I love this
album. It's a desert island albumfor me. I never really connected it
with that song, and I've seenin Marshall Crunshaw tours constantly. That's that's

(48:21):
sort of how he makes his money. Finally, he did a solo acoustic
show and he did the song notfor Me, and I was and it
was funny. I've had this albumin my collection for fifteen years, and
I was like, oh, Iget it now, and I don't know
if it's like lyrically. It hitme finally because I actually love the theme

(48:47):
of it, where you know,being with somebody who for whatever reason doesn't
treat you the way that you wishto be treated or isn't capable of,
isn't will of giving you what youneed, and you just turn and say
it's like, I wish you thebest, but it's just not for me.
And it's something that probably I thinka huge majority people can relate to

(49:10):
that relationship where there's nothing really wrongwith the person, so you don't feel
like you have the right to endthe relationship, but eventually just to say
he's like, you know, I'mnot getting what I need, it's not
for me, and good luck andmove on. And for whatever reason,
that song real finally connected in itcould just be I aged into the song.

(49:32):
I love when that happens, whenyou can hear something so many times
and then you end up listening toit in a completely new way, or
a song where maybe you even dislikedthe song and then it ends up hitting
you. So, yeah, that'sawesome when that happens. Yeah, it's
a song that I never liked.The third song Girls, which basically the

(49:58):
chorus is girls, Girls, Girls. It took a long time before and
I still it's still not my favorite. It's probably still my least favorite song
on the album, but I learnedto enjoy it. It's like, you
know what, maybe it's just becauseI grew up around too much with too
much Motley Crew music playing. Yeah, immediately right my brain goes Motley Crew
Me there she goes again someday someway. A great one to punch to

(50:20):
start an album. I also lovethe song Cynical Girl. I think it
does it speaks well to any personwho finds themselves attracted to the man or
woman who's just a little off,a little quirky. They like finding that
person who's a little off the beatenpath with what they like, they are

(50:44):
into whatever. So it's almost likea mantra for people who like that.
So it's a really catchy four chordsong, so one that I would recommend.
I love that you brought up thatone because on Chris Whitley's album I
had written down Poisoned Girl as anote, and then on this album,

(51:09):
Cynical Girl was someone that I highlighted, and probably because that something that would
connect with me, being someone who'salways just kind of been a little weird
doing their own thing, and like'sinteresting. We are quirky people. So
yeah, I like that one alot too, as she spend helps pretty

(51:30):
doing little sending. No. Definitely, it's just not me. Yeah,
I am saying, well, Iget older, but is never wiser.

(52:01):
Midnight's become my afternoons when my depression, watch the grave, your ships,
all of the people I boosted standthere in the room. I should not
be left to my own devices.They come with crisis and prices. I

(52:22):
end up in crisis use on this, sir. I wake up screaming from
dreaming. One day, I watchesyou leaving as you got tired of my
schemingle last time it feet I i'nthe problem. It's me at tea time,

(52:44):
everybody agrees. I'll stand directly atthe sun, but never in the
mirror. Must be exhausting, alwaysmoving for the anti heat broke now comes
the main events. As we're talking, you are what a week removed from

(53:06):
seeing Taylor Swift in concert? Yeah, like four days removed. I realized
I put Monday in the chopinals actuallyTuesday about anyone. I am fascinated by
the degree of celebrity that Taylor Swifthas attained. And that concert at Pain
it's wild. It's insane because famouspeople fan are fans of Taylor Swift.

(53:34):
All they had all these pictures fromthe concerts that you attend, from the
concert you attended in La there's ChanningTatum, a less movie star. Yes,
drawers getting thrown at him wherever hegoes. Yeah, and he is
dressed in he's taking his teenage daughterto the show and he's dressed as a

(53:55):
fan. Jennifer Gardner. They talkedabout that. So many famous people going,
and it's crazy where it's not justoh, there's a there's a Rolling
Stones show and you'll find out thatin the audience. You know, Paul
Rudd was a fan, and he'sthere and he's clapping along because he's a

(54:16):
rolling Stone. It's not it's notjust that they go to enjoy the show.
They dress up, they wear thebracelets, they like, They are
enamored, Like celebrities are enamored withher. She is like one level up
right. People have said, likeshe is the music industry, And while

(54:37):
we could definitely argue with that,it's funny that that's even a thing that
people say, like she is thething. The only other person at that
level is Beyonce, who's also touringright now, by the way. But
yeah, and it's the same thingwhere you see Beyonce meet Chance the Rapper

(54:58):
or like famous musicians lose their mindswhen they meet Beyonce. They're just a
level above. But Beyonce and TaylorSwift are very different in their personas.
Yees, Beyonce's a diva. Youdon't believe that she has to shower or
use the bathroom or takes walks downstairs. You just figure she floats and ain't

(55:21):
like small angels and birds and whateverdress her and she wakes up perfectly.
She even has a part in hershow where she kind of does that.
Taylor Swift, she like dives downbelow the stage and is essentially floating below
her own stage. So but TaylorSwift still seems like one of us.
Yeah, she don't, that's howso that is, especially from a com

(55:45):
professor's perspective. One of the thingsthat I find so fascinating and what she
does better than I think any artistI've ever seen, is being able to
have seventy thousand people plus standing room, so more than seventy thousand people at
a show, and speak to everyoneas though she is in front of them

(56:07):
having a conversation with him. Ican see how she does it, like
kind of from a comms perspective,I could analyze it and break it down.
We don't need to. But thefact that she does that so incredibly
well, I've never seen anybody beingable to do that the way she does.
Well. She survived. I meanshe's been doing this for a while.

(56:32):
It's not like she's a flash inthe pan. It's not like she
just started sixteen months ago. Imean, how many albums did she put
out? Ten? So that's whatthe aerostour was. She actually didn't do
anything from her debut self titled album, but essentially it was a three hour
and fifteen minute concert just her.That doesn't include the openers of nine of

(56:57):
her ten albums, where she hadjust every just different set, essentially like
nine different mini concerts, all withdifferent sets, different backgrounds, different styles,
different performances. So I've never seenanything like that before either, and
like you mentioned, with the differentoutfits the bracelets. So my daughters and

(57:20):
I went and it was weeks soI didn't go to my prom. I've
always been more of an outsider.I didn't care about a wedding. I'm
not really big into ceremony, sowhen I got married, it was actually
a lopened Vegas. I am notbig into ceremonial things, and somehow got
completely into this where it's like,let's make bracelets again, what are we

(57:44):
wearing like what era? Because peoplewould go, like you said, and
it would be different era outfits.So it's spent a lot of time planning
the outfits that we would wear,doing different events leading up to it,
like Moonlight roller Away is one ofthe last remaining roller skating rinks, and
they had a Taylor Swift Knight andso we went to that and it was

(58:05):
just like this insane lead up andjust yeah it was. It was huge.
So we all had our different erasthought, we dressed us. It's
so impressive because it's hard to it'shard to be that big for that long.
Madonna pretty much did it. Madonnawas great at that. Although Madonna

(58:29):
didn't make the same amount of content. No, she didn't have quite as
many albums. Heck, Beatles,Rolling Stones, I don't even know those
bands. The Beatles I don't thinkmade ten albums. That band fell apart,
and the Stones their peak period wasprobably three or four albums. And

(58:50):
while they still tour and are successful, it's just different. Taylor Swift isn't
is not a legacy act. Sheis still putting out huge selling albums and
people are excited to see here.Anti Hero played Yes And it's been fifteen
years, so essentially fifteen ten albumsover fifteen years, all of them different.

(59:15):
And when I say Taylor Swift,I'm partly speaking of Taylor Swift the
human being, but Taylor Swift alsois a huge and very successful brand.
Taylor Swift is hundreds of people,probably thousands of people at this point,
and so as Taylor Swift the brand. I think this is such an incredibly

(59:42):
smart brand. Just every single movethat they've made from the beginning, from
when she was a child, hasessentially been so smart. It's like there
are always one step ahead, andthey know what to do next to stay
relevant. So what do you doif you're from Pennsylvania and you just have

(01:00:04):
a mom who is exceptional at marketing, that's her job, and a father
who has like they weren't rich,but they were upper middle class. He
had a high level banking job,and so they had the money to do
this, you know, to makea real effort at having her succeed.
And so do you fly to LaNo, you go to Nashville. You

(01:00:28):
break into a smaller market, yougo into country where it's a little bit
easier to succeed. And then whenyou succeed in country with your first couple
of albums and now people know whoyou are, then you do that.
So she releases Rhett as her fourthalbum, and that's the one that transition
more into pop with songs like alltoo Well and We're Never getting back together?

(01:00:54):
And so from Rett, what doyou do? In nineteen eighty nine,
which became the biggest pop albums ofall time, which had shake It
Off and that Blood and all thosesongs. And then after nineteen eighty nine,
when there was the controversy with Kanyeand she had it was probably her

(01:01:16):
worst time in terms of how thepublic viewed her and perceptions of her.
Took that and twisted it and putout Reputation, which was a hugely successful
album and different topic of conversation,but in terms of disc tracks, so
which actually like a lot of disctracks, I think look what You Made

(01:01:38):
Me Do, which was her abuttle song, Well, one of her
abuttle songs on Reputation was wildly successful. So it's like still Taylor Swift,
the artist and the brand were ableto take that event and then run with
it in a way that they werestill relevant and incredibly popular. And then

(01:02:00):
Lover, the more mature sound.Lover was the era I dressed as I
Lover. He is the album thatreally really made me a swifty I guess
I still like reluctantly use that term, but I love that album from top
to bottom. I listened to itevery single day for probably a year and
a half straight. Well, butit's an album that made a lot of

(01:02:22):
people believers. The Lover album.I remember, I have a friend who
we would because of work is isboring and we would just sometimes pop over.
It's like, oh, here's asong you should listen to and he
was like, oh, here's thesong, And I remember the almost embarrassment

(01:02:44):
when they sent over. It's like, this song is actually pretty fantastic,
Like I know it is. Yeahfor me. Musically, she won me
over with nineteen eighty nine Wildest dreamwhich is a really good song. Yeah,
that's my favorite on nineteen eighty nine. One thing that it's been a

(01:03:04):
few years we talked about this,I am and he's become very problematic since
then. But I was a bigfan of Ryan Adams. Oh yes,
I don't know if you remember this. It got a good bit of news.
He Ryan Adams, who's an aultcountry guy, redid the album nineteen

(01:03:27):
eighty nine from start to finish inhis own style. Yeah, I haven't
actually heard it. It's very good. He sort of turned Wildest Dreams into
he turned into like more of astraighthead rock song. He was friendly with
Taylor Swift. They actually like interviewedeach other when his version of the album
came out. I have no doubtthat she is no longer taking his calls,

(01:03:52):
but it seemed like there was almostlike a reverse influence where not long
after nineteen eighty nine came out,you saw her several times doing any more
stripped down version of the song becauseit is a solid song. Yes,

(01:04:17):
he said, let's get out ofthis town, drop out of the city,
away from the cross a start.Heaven can't help me now doesn't last
for ever, but this is gonnatake me down. He's so tall,
and then's a must help. He'sso bad. It doesn't all. I

(01:04:39):
can see the end as it begins. My condition is sail belove me standing
in a nice dressed town of thesunset, baby red lips and rosy cheeks
say you'll see me. I can'teven if it's just U. Swift is

(01:05:15):
interesting because she is not vocally sheis not Mariah Carry. Oh no,
not at all. And you knowMaria's like my number one love of all
time, So no, she's not. She has I think what you would
call a perfectly solid, acceptable midtier voice. Yeah, I call it

(01:05:40):
pleasant. It's pleasant. Her songsare really solid, like the chord progressions
and everything else. They are goodsongs, is which is why they do
really well when stripped down and lyrically. A lot's been made of she writes
about and it's a criticism that shegot a lot earlier in her career.

(01:06:01):
It seems to have dropped off latein the last few years, where Okay,
well, she's talking that song,she's talking about the Jonas brother she
dated that song, she's talking aboutJohn Mayer, that song she's talking about
who Taylor Lautner. But lyrically,they're pretty, they're solid, and they're
clever. I don't know if cleveris the right thing, but they're relatable.

(01:06:26):
She doesn't talk down to her audience. I think that a lot of
the criticism against her for that,which has dropped off, is because a
lot of people did, in myopinion of rightly view that as sexist.
Because how many songs do a lotof artists write about their ex girlfriend or

(01:06:48):
the girl that left him, orshe cheated on him, or she or
he did something wrong to her andnow he's guilty and he's singing about that.
So oh, you can make ita whole mixtape about songs about Patty
Boy. Yeah, that wonderful Tonight, Layla something in the way. There's
five or six songs about one womanwritten by Eric Clapton and or George Harrison.

(01:07:14):
Let's stop pretending, right, Andno one has ever said anything as
far as I've known, Like,hey, Eric Clapton, why are you
writing about you know? It's justlike nobody would even think to do that.
I also think it was probably so. The one criticism against Taylor Swift
that I do think has some meritis when people call her calculated. I
do think that brand is calculated toa degree. I think they're incredibly smart

(01:07:39):
and probably pretty calculated. So Ithink that some of that is just her
genuinely writing about her relationships and experiencesthat she had, which makes sense.
That's what a lot of songwriters do, and a lot of the quote unquote
controversy or whatever was on purpose.Right, If you're writing about all of

(01:08:00):
these celebrities and singing about these peopleand people are talking about it, then
you're relevant, like they're talking aboutyou. So, hey, you know,
I talked before I went to seeBen Folds in concert Ben Fold's biggest
hit, he is talking very directlyabout being in high school and taking his
girlfriend for an abortion. Taylorswith isnot the first person to delve into her

(01:08:25):
personal life or her love life.I just today I was going through a
like an Fye record store and theywere playing songs by Fleetwood Mac the Rumors
album, It's like, okay,all this is about the fact that in
between takes of their songs, theywere all sleeping with each other and making

(01:08:47):
each other crazy. Taylorswith did notinvent this, No, absolutely not.
She just capitalized on it. It'sa formula that works, and it works
probably because of who she is too. Write like, she's a young,
blonde, white woman, so shehas that just a lot of people end

(01:09:13):
up relating to her or seeing themselvesin her, and she benefits from that
and they know that. Yeah,it's that's that's where privilege is. Yeah,
exactly. That is literally, yeah, that is pretty white, upper
class privilege and she, yeah,she benefits from it. And it's joking,

(01:09:33):
but there's truths in most jokes.I have many times I have turned
to my daughter and I just islike, litten, kid out, you're
a really cute, blonde white chick. The world is really made for you.
Just try to handle that responsibly,Okay, yes, responsibly and respectfully.
There is a calculated aspect to itbecause so many of the things that

(01:09:56):
has happened with Taylor Swift, thecontroversies or just the persona backfiring would have
and has destroyed many other careers.The fact that the persona for so long
was and so many of her songswere about this. We're about how she's

(01:10:20):
not the cool chick, and youknow, she wants the guy to knows
her instead of the pretty girl,which is sort of ridiculous because she is
a tall, leggy, gorgeous blondegirl. Right. She's literally model built,
and she's able to convince people thatshe is an outcast and be relatable.

(01:10:44):
What's really interesting is that there's actuallya lot of crossover with Fallout Boy
and Taylor Swift fans. So thewhole kind of emo trinity of MCR and
Fallout Boy and those bands and TaylorSwift. You wouldn't necessarily think so,
but a lot of these kind ofquote unquote like outcast kind of emo groups

(01:11:05):
and Taylor Swift they have a lotof the same fans, and Taylor Swift
is actually mentioned on several occasions.The Fallout Boy is her favorite band and
they did well. Patrick Stump dida song with her called Electric Touch,
which they recently released. I amfascinating by the fact that Taylor Swift she

(01:11:27):
has in the industry. She bothhas the respect of other groups and other
performers, and she respects them whoopened when you saw them, when you
saw Taylor Swift, Gracie Abrams,who if you're familiar with JJ Abrams,
it's his daughter. We didn't reallywatch her too what We kind of listened

(01:11:53):
because we were we were there.But as my youngest said, she's like,
I don't really care about these appoartists too much. So like that
Jaden Smith's and the Gracie Abrams andthen him him, they are legit,
they are and they should hate TaylorSwift because they are not models. They

(01:12:24):
are attractive women, but they arenot models. They are not six feet
tall with legs up to their neck. They are all studied musicians who and

(01:12:45):
the fact that they have cut songswith Taylor Swift, they have opened for
Taylor Swift. They should be tryingto poison Taylor Swift because they hate her
so much, and the fact thatthey have mutual respect for each other says
to me, says a lot aboutTaylor Swift is like, no, she's

(01:13:08):
not just somebody who is an automatonthrown out in front of people, and
all the music is written for herand everything is a thousand percent stage.
No, that she is. Shehas respect in the industry. Yeah,
absolutely. And when I say thereis the calculated aspect, I definitely don't

(01:13:29):
think that that is the whole storyor a fair story or a complete story.
It's one of those where there's alittle bit of truth in that story.
But I think I think Taylor Swiftis an incredible songwriter. I do
think she writes a lot of herown music. Obviously, obviously she collaborates
with people like other artists. Doyou mentioned Bruce Springsteen earlier? And Bruce

(01:13:55):
Springsteen mentioned that he was interviewed recentlyand he said, who are you listening
to? And he said, Ithink the greatest artist right now in terms
of singer songwriting is Taylor Swift.And that's who who I listened to.
And I thought that was pretty cool. Well, there was somebody. And
it's funny because I'm a guitar guy. I play a little bit guitar.

(01:14:16):
I love guitar music, and someand the and the writer of this article
knew what they were doing because theywanted to also, you know, get
clicks and stir controversy. But theysaid how Taylor Swift was the most important
guitarist since Eddie Van Halen, TaylorSwift is a completely acceptable rhythm guitarist.

(01:14:43):
But what they were saying was wasn'toh she can you know she would be
able to, you know, donote for note this solo for Michael Jackson's
beat It or anything like that.But she got little girls playing guitar,
and there's going to be a wholegeneration of singer songwriter who are are gonna

(01:15:08):
start taking lessons because they want tobe Taylor Swift. And also it's gonna
and you can already see it.I don't know that Hi would have had,
would have had necessarily all the opportunitiesthat they had if not for Taylor
Swift knocking down those doors. Absolutelythat's true. I mean I do give

(01:15:29):
Taylor Swift credit too. She doesplay guitar. I think she played guitar
from the time she was young,so yeah, that's I think she even
picked up a guitar before she startedsinging. But so she's she's played.
She also plays piano. So Ido like the fact that she was playing

(01:15:51):
instruments during her show. She wasplaying, she was singing, she was
dancing. Of course, she hadbacking tracks like almost every big artist does.
But it wasn't just like an autotune nor lip sync performance. She
really puts a lot into her performances. It's it's hard when you're a performer

(01:16:14):
of her caliber trying to fill upa big stadium which are not acoustically sound.
And again, she's not Mariah Carey, She's she is a performer who's
trying to create an experience into thegreat job creating the experience. Uh,
you know, backing tracks are nobodyloves them. But and if she was

(01:16:39):
playing in a small, intimate,intimate venue, don't do it the backing
tracks. Let people really see it. But when you're playing in a you
know, big sports stadium, yeahyeah, you get a pass. Yeah.
I mean she's a self fi.It's like, I don't how you

(01:17:00):
play that show and not have anybacking tracks. I don't know that that
would have worked. While I completelyagree that Taylor's Swift is just a decent
vocalist, she's pleasant, she soundsnice. I like listening to her,
I think there's also like she doesn'thave to be Mariah Carey. She doesn't

(01:17:21):
have to be a phenomenal vocalist.So I sometimes wonder if there's a little
bit of sexism in that too,where it's like we think that like there
are plenty of male vocalists who arejust interesting or who also are just pleasant

(01:17:45):
and aren't necessarily rate vocalists either,and that's not how they got popular,
really connect with their audiences either.You're talking shit for the holiday, addicted

(01:18:10):
to the trail, but your relevant. You saver fight to look down because
we bet there is set the glareof everyone you burn just to get there.
It's coming back oh round, andI keep my side on the street.

(01:18:32):
You know me, my good friend? Come is it? God?
Is the breeze in my hair onthe weekend? Comes a relaxing though with
you in the este for you,it's not sweet like how many coma is
a cat bringing my life because itloves me? Doesn't like the God?

(01:18:56):
Damn Accrobie be a coma by myGod. Mick Jagger is also selling out
stadiums with the Rolling Stones. BobDylan. Plenty of people that bought Bob
Dylan albums and stuff, and heain't Mariah carry either. It's by the
way, Bob Dylan. I thinkhe's a great singer with a bad voice,

(01:19:19):
so he knows how to use it. Yeah, he knows how to
use that voice so perfectly. Samewith Tom Waits. I love that these
artists you're mentioning, right. WhatI love about them is you know who
they are, right, Like,I only need to hear a second two
seconds and I'm gonna identify that artistimmediately, So they're memorable. You certainly

(01:19:45):
have your Christopher Buckley's I'm getting thatwrong, Jeff buckley amazing singer. So
you have your male and female versionsof the of the belters, of the
people who can really sing, andthe whole thing is like how long can

(01:20:06):
you hold that note? How manyoctaves can you reach? And it's an
amazing performance to see. But thenyou have, you know, plenty of
people who you know they'll be onkey the whole time and their voices are
nice to listen to or interesting tolisten to. And yeah, you're right,

(01:20:27):
there's no expecting Taylor Swift to dothe same thing as as if there's
only one box that can be filledif you're a woman who sings, and
I've never bought in that. Youknow, one of my favorite female performances

(01:20:49):
is Liz Fair. She is nota belter either, but she is a
great She's a very good songwriter whoknows how to stay within herself. Yeah,
that's really important. I think that'sthe that's the main thing to do.
And I think Liz Phair and TaylorSwift if they put a ton of

(01:21:12):
effort into their craft. I thinkTaylor Swift has well. Her vocals have
also improved a lot over the years, so she learned how to work with
her voice and control her voice andmanage it and do the best thing support
it. Sometimes. I still don'tlike when she tries to belt in songs
because she is not a pleasant belter. So she does have a few songs

(01:21:34):
where she will like, don't blameme and things like that. It's not
I almost wish like you don't haveto you could have your vocalists take that
exactly. But I just part ofthe reason why I wasn't really a huge

(01:21:57):
fan of hers until the last fewalbums is because I wasn't well one.
I don't really this is so badand dismissive and obnoxious to say, so
I understand if people don't like whatI'm about to say. I'm not a
big fan of country music. Blanket. I am like a like I do
respect certain country artists. I canappreciate it, but it's never really might

(01:22:20):
go to in terms of something tolisten to. So I didn't really pay
attention to her in her first fewalbums. Plus, she seemed more like
a kid's artist, right, likemy kids in elementary school listen to her
early songs like love Story and thesethings that were kind of juvenile. So

(01:22:40):
she wasn't really on my radar.And then her biggest pop songs from nineteen
eighty nine, like Red, Istarted to get into her a little bit
because I knew you were Trouble.I actually really liked that song. I
think it's a lot of fun andAll Too Well. I think is one
of her greatest songs of all time. I love all two. So she

(01:23:00):
was on my radar a bit.With Red, I'm like, hey,
I want to pay attention to this. Nineteen eighty nine, I really did
not like Shake It Off. Ireally did not like bad Blood like I
don't like her more cringe e kindof huge pop hits. So I'm like,
maybe not. And then I wasn'tlistening to her a lot. I

(01:23:24):
did love Wildest Dreams and Style waspretty good, but heah, the ones
who have always been like, thesongs that have been her number ones are
the ones that I typically liked theleast, so reputation I was paying attention.
Look What You Made Me Do ismy exception to that. A lot
of people don't like that song,find it a cringey kind of resonall I

(01:23:45):
love Look What You Made Me Do? That was so fun to see live.
That was great, But lover heis when I really started to pay
more attention to her as a songwriter, because I'm just basically hearing her radio
hits, her top forty hits andwhat's bad Blood? Like we used to
be mad Love, now we havebad Blood. I'm like, this is
terrible. It felt like that songwas I mean, it was a very

(01:24:09):
direct shot at Katy Perry. Andand then so much effort was put into
the video with she had Morsko Hacketeand the woman from Gray's anat Gray's Anatomy
and all these other and it wasit felt so much like, Oh,

(01:24:29):
there's that person from that that singer, there's that actress, and it's like
and it had these huge production values, and then so many quote unquote think
pieces about what this meant for thefeud with Katy Perry, and it's like,
uh, it's and to me,it's like the songs fine, I

(01:24:56):
certainly heard a lot. It wasfunny because that album came out. My
daughter who maybe was, oh god, when did that? When did that
come out? When did nineteen eightynine come out? Around twenty fourteen?
I might be a year off,but around twenty fourteen. Yeah, twenty
fourteen. October twenty seven, twentyfourteen, so nine years ago. My

(01:25:20):
daughter is eleven, so she wastwo or three when that came out,
and my wife was playing the albuma good bit, and I just remember
my daughter being in her car seatin the back singing along with the songs.
I'm like, Okay, first off, apparently this is really working for

(01:25:43):
London, and second we must beplaying this album a lot. It's Cutchy.
Absolutely, it was Cutchy. Ithink it was one of her other
up until Midnights, which she releasedlast October twenty twenty two. It was
her best selling and best charting album, I believe, But yeah, it
wasn't until Lover when I just waslistening to that album from back to back

(01:26:09):
and then kept doing and I'm like, wow, she is a really good
songwriter. Actually, like, thesesongs are are incredible. There's a lot
of deep stuff here. This isresonant. And then when I went through,
like I actually really want to giveher full discography a listen, and
I realized every album, starting withher debut album, it was all the

(01:26:32):
songs that weren't the charting songs thatwere the ones that I really liked.
So I'm like, I've been missingout on all of this music. Like
she has a ton of great music, it's just for me personally, Bad
Blood and shake it Off aren't theexamples of what I think are her great
music. But obviously I'm in theminority. Those were hugely popular songs,

(01:26:53):
so for millions of people they wereshake it Off is to me, it's
fine. It was a little toocatch phrazy for me. You would see
it all the time, like afterthey came out, you would see politicians
it's like saying, it's like,well, you know what they say,
hater's gonna hate. It's like,oh, shut up, it's just so

(01:27:16):
cringey. I'm like, oh no, that was. And then the music
video for that was a little bitcringey as well, so well that was
I brought it up before. Itwas one of those things that was controversies
that would bring down somebody who wasless savvy because there was a lot of
talk about cultural appropriation. Also,they a lot of people felt she was

(01:27:42):
sort of like poking fun and laughingat these you know, women who didn't
who weren't blessed with her genetics.It's like, oh, there's an African
American woman with a larger rear endand she's sort of laughing. And I
was like, uh, yes,not good. You know the Kanye stuff
was she has, She's had quitea bit of these. She had the

(01:28:06):
feud with Katy Perry, which couldhave really could have blown up in her
face because it sounded so petty andthe topic for another day. But how
did Katy Perry tank her whole career? Like that's the thing too, Like
Taylor comes out on top and whatdo even happened to Katie? Anyway?

(01:28:28):
That's another discussion. No, you'reright, because Katy Perry, well,
first off, Taylor Swift Dish trackwas just better and Bad Blood may not
have been her best song, butat least it sounded like a song.
Is it better than Swish Swish?I can't even say that bad song with
an even worse music video. Yes, that was terrible. It was so

(01:28:53):
bad. I'm watching this as like, Oh, Katy Perry thinks she's funny
because she's beautiful and famous, andeverybody laughs when they think that they want.
Katy Perry isn't funny. She's quirkyand she's charming. But it's it's

(01:29:14):
Jenny McCarthy syndrome, where you knowwhen you're the beautiful woman that everyone really
you know that everyone laughs when whenthey think that you want them to laugh.
Oh, you think you're funny,It's like, no, you are
not funny on your own. Andthat music video was trying so hard to
be funny. I was like,oh, this is awful. Yes,

(01:29:35):
it was truly awful, but yeah, this is so like that one feud
where neither of them really seemed likethe good guy or the bad guy.
It was just a petty feud andit was really the beginning of the end
for Katy Perry and Taylor Swift.It was it was pretty much the midpoint
of her career. You could alsojust see and not really even a controversy.

(01:29:56):
You could see public sentiment turning awayfrom Taylor Swift. Yes, it
did after the Kanye I mean,people were largely on Kanye and Kim's side
for a while. He did it, he did, estays a friend of

(01:30:34):
mine. We need a bevery Tuesdaynight, Beidanna round a glass of wine.
Estays and losing sleep. Her husband'sacting. Be Bernina smells like INFIDELI.
She says, I ain't my blowon his mom. I ain't my
Joey on our joint account. No, there ain't no doubt. I think

(01:30:55):
I'm gonna call him my home.She says, I think he did that.
I think he did. I thinkhe did. No nobody no Iday,

(01:31:20):
I remember sort of what aside fromthe fact that Kanye just imploded because
of Kanye. And it's hard tobe on Kim Gardashian's side for too long
because right or wrong, people justdon't find her like Thelm. It's weird,
she's and like people want to beher and don't like her. At
the same time, Taylor Swift sortof won a lot of people over with

(01:31:45):
the the lawsuit where the DJ puthis hand under her skirt and grabbed her
rear end all right, and shehandled herself with such confidence and poise and
intelligence and she didn't back down andshe didn't any and people found it admirable.

(01:32:18):
Yeah, I remember that at thetime, having so much respect for
how how she handled that well,wasn't it. It wouldn't have mattered if
the music, if the music thatfollowed wasn't of a good caliber. But
it sort of won people over.And we're not that far removed from the

(01:32:39):
Johnny Depp, the Johnt Depp amberHeard trial where amber Heard somehow came out
of that. It looks like hercareers destroyed, and it really because her

(01:33:03):
lawyer wasn't likable. I know.I was just going to say, like
she did not have the best teambehind her, she did not come out
looking good and that and I don'tknow. I think that there's a lot

(01:33:23):
of blame to go around in thatentire situation, but I think she was
not represented will and she probably didn'trepresent herself very well either. And now
sentiment is starting. I wouldn't sayto turn in her favor by any stretch,
but I think there's been a littlebit of movement in her favor,

(01:33:45):
So I don't know, we'll seeif she can rebound, if she will
or not. It just shows howa trial like that, and it could
have been so difficult that the peopleare familiar. Was his mueller David Muller
or a mule or I don't knowtheir correct pronunciation, was a DJ.

(01:34:12):
They were doing some photo of someevent where they were doing photos and he
put his arm around Taylor Swift,and I'm gonna use the word allegedly because
I am not a legal expert andI would just want to cover my ass
allegedly lifted put his hand under herskirt, she was wearing a main skirt,

(01:34:35):
and grabbed her rear end. Shecomplained to the management, and he
got fired because if you are ona record station, if you run a
music station, you don't want yourDJ's and it was considered saying, you
know, it's basically sexual assault.If you put your hand up someone else's

(01:34:56):
skirt and grabbed their rear end withouttheir consent, that's sexual assault. You
don't want your DJs sexually assaulting oneof the top two or three musicians in
the world. And he sued TaylorSwift saying that she cost him his dream
job. It would have been veryeasy for her to and I don't think

(01:35:21):
people even necessarily blamed her it's like, Uh, this is not worth I
don't want to give up a chunkof my life and expose myself to a
trial and they'll probably just be cheaperto throw money at distance make it go
away. And she went through thetrial and she was poised and want and

(01:35:43):
did not back down, did noteat, and you could see that they
were trying to get her to expresssympathy. It's like, well, don't
you feel bad that you cost thisguy his career? And she's like,
I do not feel bad that becauseof his behavior he lost his career.
And and that's the thing. Idon't even know if victim blaming is the

(01:36:09):
right term, but it's something thathappens very often, whereas where whenever a
woman is wronged, they are supposedto feel so much sympathy for the person
that wronged them and feel guilty forI think victim blaming does. I think
it does work here. And notto go too deep into this because we

(01:36:29):
definitely don't need to. But Ihad a similar experience at sixteen seventeen and
ended up having to well decided togo to court and speak out much like
she did, and got thrilled bydefense attorneys and ended up that they sided

(01:36:51):
with me. But I know firsthand, and I think that is one reason
why I really connect with her tooand had so much respect because I have
been in that scene being asked similartypes of questions, and unfortunately it is
something that still continues to this day. Her handling of the Kanye situation,

(01:37:14):
the handling of former relationships, thefact that she's always in a weird situation.
It's very difficult when you're a famousperson, a celebrity, and obviously
everybody wants to know your views onpolitics, and it's so dangerous because I
remember it is I think it wasPat Benatar. Her music was used for

(01:37:36):
the Rush Limboughs show. Somebody askedher about it, is like, you
know, do you really want yourmusic association? And she said it's like
Republicans buy music too, right,Michael Jordan said something similar, Michael Jordan
never spoke about politics. The ideais, you know, republicans also buy

(01:37:56):
Nike. Taylor Swift has at timeI'm spoken out about politics, and there
was a video of her of likea meeting she was having with her management,
including her father, and she wassort of being warned, is like,
you know, if you talk aboutthis, you might lose some fandom,
and she's like, yeah, Ishould have talked about I should have
spoken out before. And I thinkher starting out in country, she just

(01:38:18):
didn't want And again I understand whyshe didn't, but I think she just
didn't really want to share her viewsor make it about that or speak out
about certain things. So she didn't. And I think just everything that's happened
in recent years, maybe she alsogot to a level where she felt like,

(01:38:40):
Okay, I do have enough thatI can take this risk and that
whatever happens happens, and I'll dealwith the fallout because it's important also being
a difference of being in your twentiesand being in your thirties. Yeah.
Absolutely so. I don't know ifyou've seen the Miss Americana documentary, but
she talks about it quite a bit, and that I have not. I

(01:39:02):
remember when that came out. She'sit's she's and you know, we're not
talking. We've we've talked some,but but we're not talking a lot about

(01:39:23):
the majority of what we're talking aboutisn't about her music. I just find
her a really fascinating character because she'snot she's never been portrayed as a sexpot.
She's never been portrayed as her personahas never really been a diva.
She she does want you to feellike she's She's a girl that if you

(01:39:45):
hung out with her, you wouldbe friends. Yeah. She even did
this thing where she invited fans toher house in New York City, will
be at her apartment thought she rented. So she's always done these kinds of
things or relatability, And people werelike, you can invite fans to your
house here Taylor Swift, like whatare you doing? And She's like,

(01:40:06):
no, I'm gonna do this andwe're gonna make cookies. It's very smart
and it's something that I can't thinkof. You think of all the big
stars through the years, Mariah Kerrywould never do that. Oh no,
absolutely not. Going back a coupleof januaries, you know, Barbara streisand
Mick Jagger, Paul McCartney, andPaul McCartney was a likable guy, but

(01:40:29):
you still felt he was a coupleof level layers in between the public and
him. I can't think of anybodyat the tear she is who their persona
is so strongly based on. Oh, she'd be really cool to have over

(01:40:49):
at your family barbecue. Yeah.Absolutely, And if you saw fans like
at her concert, she is tothe level of Michael Jackson of the Beatle
in terms of like fan reaction tothe point where people pass out, like
freak out when they see her.But also you could still imagine you said

(01:41:13):
her hanging out with you or goingto your barbecue or whatever, and any
of these other artists who are atthis level, I don't think anyone would
have described them that way. Soit's really interesting. Maybe an a night

(01:41:47):
to see you. Oh you don'twant to say and you don't really read
into my cally, I've been underscrutiny. Oh yeah, you hand only

(01:42:11):
beautifully. Oh yeah, all thisship is not to me. Oh yeah,
scream I'm danding the two give itdown. What people say at the
wan. For me, I justwant to say, call the game basking

(01:42:47):
me. Well, my first exposureto Taylor Swift, because I'm not really
a country guy either, especially popcountry, was she was on an MTV
show where it was I Will Okay. It was called Once upon a prom

(01:43:14):
and it was I think it wasjust a special was in two thousand and
eight, so she wasn't even TaylorSwift yet, And the plot of this
show was she basically showed up andsurprised the fan and went to the prom

(01:43:39):
with that fan. Oh yeah,I forgot about that. And it was
one of the more charming shows youwould ever see. And she came across
so well because the guy who washer date is completely just flummick and he

(01:44:01):
was wearing weird way way my brainworks. He was wearing a pink vest
on his his prom outfit, andshe's like, what's with the pink vest?
And he's like, he's a relativeor someone who passed away from breast
cancer and it was to honor thatfriend. And she went back on the
tour bus and came out with apink dress to match his outfit, and

(01:44:26):
then he she spent the entire promjust taking pictures with his fan after fan
after fan, and there's the poorguy who's her quote unquote prom day who,
by the way, I'm sure hedid great with the ladies after that,
because every girl in his high schooland probably college and probably to this
day, it was like, I'mnot sure if I'm feeling It's like he

(01:44:47):
went to the prom with Taylor Swift. Okay, he's got my number.
Now, I'm sure I have noproblem, but you know, and it
was pretty funny because this guy islike, oh, she's so great,
and I could see having a relationshipwith Taylor. It just like, sure,
you can't, buddy, but anyway, but she was so smart even
at that point where knowing that bethere for the fans, connect with the
fans, have your picture taken.It's gonna be a story that they're gonna

(01:45:11):
cherish for the rest of their lives. And she's so good at making those
fan experiences. And I watched that. My wife watched it, and I
watched it with her, and itwas funny. We really didn't know too
much about her music, but whenher music would come on or when there
would be a music video, youliked her already, so you're gonna give

(01:45:31):
it another try. Yeah, shehas that charisma, like you don't really
look away from her as we're talking. There's been a little bit of a
rumor mill she's done a little bitof acting. She was in what was
it called New Year's New Year's Day. Yeah, I think that's it,

(01:45:53):
where she had a couple scenes whichwas Yeah, and by the way,
I saw that movie whatever it was, it was Valentine's Day or New Year's
Day or something like that. Theguy who directed Pretty Woman, Marshall,
did a handful of these movies wherethere was a big cast and everybody have
bits. She was not she's notan actress, but she does show up

(01:46:15):
well on screen, and she was. It was her and Taylor Lawtoner who
believed. There was rumors that theywere involved at the time, and there
was just a cute scene where they'replaying high school students. They're sort of
dippy, but he gives her abig teddy bear and kisses her, and
then you see her buy her apartmentdoor, just hugging this teddy bear and
sort of like like sitting on theground because she's so overwhelmed with puppy love.

(01:46:41):
And it's like, okay, yeah, that strangely enough, that works.
Bad movie and bad performance, butyou can sort of see her charismas.
There are rumors of her being ina Marvel movie. Have you heard
about this? I have not heardabout about the things that I've been hearing
more have to do with her directingand her directing the all two well ten

(01:47:05):
minute music video kind of be softlaunching that, so I've been hearing more
about her maybe moving into directing.But she's so charismatic and loves the limelight
so much it might make more sensefor her to do that, but I

(01:47:27):
haven't actually heard about that. Sheis rumored to be in the running to
play Dazzler in Deadpool three. We'venever talked about this. I don't know
how dialed in you are into comicbooks or comic book movies. Not really,
and that might be why, soI apologize I don't. I haven't
really seen any of them. It'dbe very good casting because Dazzler is a

(01:47:54):
pretty well known X Men character,and her whole thing is she is singer
by day mutant by night, andso she sings all the time, and
her power is she can turn soundinto light and has light based powers.

(01:48:15):
The character actually was in one ofthe last X Men movie was an X
Men Dark Phoenix played by and I'mcheating here totally played by Halston as Sage.
It makes sense because Taylorswith is anexisting relationship with the actor who places

(01:48:39):
at Pool. Insanely, his nameis completely escaping me, even though he's
one of the most famous people onthe planet. I don't know how I
missed that she is dating somebody rightnow. I know there was that whole
controversy with Matt Healey, well notdating, but she has I'm by a
relationship with imy to business relationship withRyan Reynolds. He did like an ad

(01:49:00):
because he has a production company andthey use Taylor Swift song for the ad,
and Ryan Reynolds is very good atmaking friends in the industry, so
it actually makes sense. It's like, Okay, we need somebody who's a
we have a mutant character who's asinger. Is a great chance to have
Taylor Swift come in, sing asong, shoot lasers out of her hands,

(01:49:21):
and then she's out of the moviein five minutes. Yes, and
people will definitely watch it, Andso that's smart and I'm sure she'll be
memorable. Very few people have beenable to have extended successful music careers and
acting careers. There certainly have beenexamples of it. Beyonce did a couple

(01:49:45):
of movies. Madonna tried for awhile and had moderate success as an actress.
Yeah, she wasn't terrible in myopinion, but just success wise.
Yeah, no, yeah, absolutely, Tina Turner was really cool. In
a Mad Max movie and that wasthe only movie she did really. Justin

(01:50:12):
Timberlake made a run at it,and he would he and he wasn't doing
movies where he was where he wasa singer and they would have a you
know, like Lady Gaga and LadyGaga was fantastic and Star Wars Born,
but she was you know, shewas well cast because she's a singer.
Same with eminem and eight Mile.He was great in that, but he

(01:50:33):
was was sort of playing himself.Justin Timberlake was doing ram cons and stuff
where he wasn't singing. Yeah,because he started unsync right, well,
he didn't start in sync, butI mean he started with in sync.
So how that boy band heartthrob appeal? But Taylor Swift, did you ever
see her like taking a shot atthat or do you think it's just gonna

(01:50:57):
be every now and like once everyfive years, she's going to be friends
with somebody who's like, hey,why don't you do with a cameo in
this movie? I think she'll probablystick to cameos. I don't necessarily see
her doing a full transition into acting. I don't like to count her out
for anything because I have nothing butevidence to suggest that anything she has tried

(01:51:20):
to do or reinvent herself as she'sbeen successful at it. So I would
never want to say that she couldn'tdo something. I don't know. I
think I could see her she stillhas plenty of years to make music.
It's wild to think about. Shehas ten albums. She's only thirty three
years old, so she has plentyof time I think, to make more

(01:51:44):
music, to make whatever she wantsto make. She's recently said she's feeling
more creative than she ever has,and she has no interest in slowing down
or not making music, so Ithink she'll probably stick with music as her
prime Mary thing. I would alsolook at She said that she loved directing
the All two Well music video somuch and that she was interested in directing,

(01:52:09):
so I could see her wanting moreof her vision come to life.
A lot of acting is other peoplelike you, essentially enacting other people's visions,
and I think she would want morecreative control. So I don't know,
that's my prediction. I think she'llkeep making music. I think she'll

(01:52:29):
appear in things as she wants to, and I would look to her to
maybe direct in future years. Yeah, she did that recent video with her
and Taylor Lautner, and she directedin I She's a solid director. I'm

(01:52:49):
sure she had a great group aroundher to make, you know, to
help her with that. She hasa great work ethic. She seems willing
to learn, willing to listen topeople. I think she could be successful
with that. Yeah. All right, well, Sarah, this as has

(01:53:10):
always has been awesome. I reallyappreciate you taking the time. I need
you to plug your ploggable all right, so you can listen to my podcast,
which is finally coming back from avery long hiatus. Life is a
playlist, so I'll have some upcomingepisodes of that where if you're interested in

(01:53:34):
more Taylor Swift, more Fallout Boy, more concert info, then you can
listen to me there. Otherwise youcan find me as comline on TikTok where
I discuss neuro divergence and music andpolitics and yeah, just about anything.

(01:53:55):
Well, we recommend everyone checking thatout. Sarah, it's been so great
having on here. Thank you somuch. You it is always enjoyed to
talk to you. Thank you somuch. And likewise, I always love
your show. I always love talkingto you in particular and it's really fun
and so thank you. That RAPSepisode two eighty four, big thanks to

(01:54:34):
Sarah Black so cool. I'd haveher on every week, but I can't.
So next week we're going to havea new cool person host of the
upcoming game show What's what makes hisdebut? It is mister Eric Baine.
This is going to be special tillthen, In the words of jar Pardon

(01:54:59):
seeing the funny pages, subscribe tothe Cosmic Shapetto podcast on iTunes, Stitcher,
or wherever quality podcasts can be found. Rate and review us while there.

(01:55:20):
Follow us on Twitter at Cosmic cheapotand we will follow you back unless
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(01:55:43):
some sugar on me. People aregoing to get upset and don't turn un mony you