CU 2.0 Podcast Episode 348 Inside the Mind of Hanscom CEO Peter Rice - from Tax Exemption to Walking the Camino

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On the show today is Peter Rice, CEO of Hanscom Federal Credit Union, a  $1.9 billion institution headquartered in Boston that took flight in 1951 at Hanscom Air Force Base.  

Rice is a repeat guest.  His first appearance came in 2021 when he was Chief Banking Officer at Workers Bank.  That episode has been reposted as Greatest Hit #25.  

On this show Rice’s mind roams across the many issues credit unions are now wrestling with - the possible loss of the federal income tax exemption, possible changes at NCUA in the DOGE restructuring of Washington DC, the retirement of America's Credit Union’s CEO Jim Nussle, Hanscom's acquisition of The People’s Bank (Mayland), pending regulatory approval, and a new WealthTrek facility in Government Center, Boston that is reimagining banking today and tomorrow.

But there’s more. We also talk about Rice’s walks on the Camino de Santiago, where he has three times earned a compostela,  a certificate of completion, and he muses about writing a management book about the Camino.  By the way your podcast host has earned two Camino  compostelas, in separate walks.

And there’s even a detour into the political history of Ireland, where Rice grew up.

This is a show with lots to unpack.

Listen up.  And listen again.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Welcome to the CU2.0 podcast.

SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
Hi, and welcome to the CU2.0 podcast with big new
ideas about credit unions andconversations about innovative
technology with credit union andfintech leaders.
This podcast is brought to youby Quillo, the real-time loan
syndication network for creditunions, and by your host,
longtime credit union andfinancial technology journalist,

(00:27):
Robert McGarvey.
And now, the CU2.0 podcast withRobert McGarvey.

SPEAKER_02 (00:33):
On the show today is Peter Rice, CEO of Hanscom
Federal Credit Union, a$1.9billion institution
headquartered in Massachusettsthat took flight in 1951 at
Hanscom Air Force Base.
Rice is a repeat guest.
His first appearance came in2021 when he was Chief Banking
Officer at Workers Bank.

(00:55):
That episode has been repostedas greatest hit number 25.
On this show, Rice's mind roamsfreely across the many issues
credit unions are now wrestlingwith.
The possible loss of the federalincome tax exemption, possible
changes at NCOA, and the dogerestructuring of Washington,

(01:15):
D.C., the retirement ofAmerica's credit union CEO, Jim
Nussel, Hanscom's acquisition ofthe People's Bank of Maryland,
pending regulatory approval, anda new WealthTrek facility in
Government Center, Boston, thatis reimagining banking today and
tomorrow.
But there's more.

(01:35):
We also talk about Rice's walkson the Camino de Santiago, where
he has three times earned aCompostela, that's a certificate
of completion, And now he'smusing about writing a
management book about lessonslearned on the Camino.
By the way, your podcast hosthas earned two Camino
Compostelas in separate walks.

(01:55):
And there's even a detour intothe political history of
Ireland, where Rice grew up.
This is a show with lots tounpack.
Listen up.
Listen again.
Now, in May of last year, yousent me an email.
This is the cliffhanger.
Where you said, in four days, infour days, I'm going to be doing

(02:18):
the Camino with my sons.
But I have to be in Lisbon onJuly 5th to get married.
I never heard back from you.

SPEAKER_01 (02:28):
Yeah, no, what can I tell you?
It's been, my apologies.
Yeah, it was kind of a whirlwindexperience.
Whirlwind, and it's the thirdtime that I've done enough to
get the Compostela, right?
So it's my third visit.
Every visit has...

(02:49):
I mean, you never set foot inthe same river twice, right?
Right.
And each one has had acompletely different flavor and
theme to it, and I feel like I'mdoing laps kind of around the
track at school again, you know?
It's just something that...
I can't get enough of it.
You know, it seems to be reallygood for me and really good for

(03:11):
the people that I go with.
And the first trip was, thefirst time I'd done the Camino
de Santiago was inspired by myfirst wife who had passed away
from cancer.
And that was a really, you know,a really rough and raw Camino
experience.
And, uh, I had my boys with meat that stage and they would

(03:33):
have been, um, maybe five, sixyears of age and three years of
age in and around that.
And, um, you know, that was areally, really tough, tough
walk.
And,

SPEAKER_02 (03:45):
um, really, really tough for a three-year-old.
It'd be tough for asix-year-old.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (03:51):
They, they came in and out.
I had, I had like a buggy, um,that I, that I pushed them in,
uh,

SPEAKER_02 (03:56):
good, good, good.

SPEAKER_01 (03:57):
And, um, Although they did walk, you know, long
sections of it.
But it was, you know, it kindof, I would describe what this
Camino means to me is, it's notthat I need time out from life,
it's that it gives me height andperspective.
And every time I do it, youknow, I see things in myself

(04:21):
that just, you know, workingevery day, I don't get to see.
I get to see sides of myself,good, bad, and different.
And it gives me the perspectiveto kind of notice it, take note
of it, and, hey, see what'sgoing on.
Is this something I need in mylife?
And what do I do and say thesethings?
And how can I leverage this timeto come out a better version?

(04:46):
And I can tell you, if I'm goingto do that, Robert, I'm going to
need a lot more Caminos.

UNKNOWN (04:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (04:51):
So, yeah, we did.
It was last minute.
You know, at three Caminos, onewas my first wife passed away.
The second Camino was I'd met,you know, somebody very special.
And I figured that if she coulddo the Camino with me, because
it's a deep journey, as you wellknow, you know, it's a very deep

(05:13):
journey.
And if we came out the end ofit, it would be just a great
test of, you know, how we'regoing to be as a team, as a
couple.
And she's done fantastic, andshe'd never done anything like
that before in her life.
And, you know, both of us arelike, right, this is a very
serious relationship.
And, of course, the third Caminowas, I was about to get married,

(05:35):
you know, the day after Ifinished in Lisbon.
And, of course, the Caminofinishes in Santiago in Spain,
and it's not the easiest placeto get to.
So I had to finish it by acertain time and date to get to
the church on time.
And I absolutely did.
But this time around, what hadhappened, Robert, is one of our
long-serving employees hadpassed away from colon cancer.

(05:59):
That's what my first wife hadpassed away from was colon
cancer.
And I just felt that, you know,I felt that, you know, what that
first Camino taught me was I wasnever going to stop grieving.
Like, that's never, you know,life doesn't work that way.
But what the first Camino taughtme was you learn to carry it.

(06:22):
And then also what's important,you know, there's parts of the
grief that I learned to jettisonthat were going to be
destructive.
So when you walk the Camino, asyou know, Robert, you pack your
bag and you overpack it, youknow, and by the time you get to
the end, you've got a toothbrushand three changes of clothes.

UNKNOWN (06:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
It really teaches you about what's important in
life and what's important in themoment.
And grief is the same.
Grief is the exact same thing.
There are parts of it that aredestructive.
There are parts of it that arehealthy.
And the bits that I hold on tois the preciousness of life and

(07:01):
that I wish all of our lovedones could still be here
enjoying the things that westill can.
And I kept those parts of grief,those motivators.
And hopefully I dropped or nolonger carried the destructive
forms of grief.

(07:22):
So it means a lot to me.
And this time we raised fundsfor Fisher House in Boston.
it's for military families who,you know, good news, who have
rare forms of cancer, you know,and the good news is, is, uh,
they can come to Boston to, toget some of the best cancer care
in the world.
But the problem is, is theycan't afford the accommodation
because hotels in Boston are,you know, three to 500 bucks a

(07:45):
night, uh, for a cheap hotel.
And, um, yeah, we just wanted todo, you know, something special.
You know, I, I wanted to givethe, I wanted to give back to
the Camino what it gave me and,and, um, you know, keep, keep it
going.
Um, but I got to tell yousomething now and, and, um,
we're, we're gaming out.

(08:06):
Um, we're gaming out right nowdoing the entire Camino.
Uh, so, you know, it's theequivalent of 20, you know, 19
marathons in, in, in 20 days.
So we're, we're currentlyplanning on planning for that.
Um, because I've unfinishedbusiness with the Camino.
Generally

SPEAKER_02 (08:26):
that takes about a month.
generally

SPEAKER_01 (08:29):
generally takes a month but who has a month you
know we got a lot going on herei

SPEAKER_02 (08:33):
actually i talked with a guy who ran it in like 11
days but he was one third my ageand much better shape so

SPEAKER_01 (08:42):
the interesting thing is you know people say
well how do you plan for thati'm like well you don't need
anything in your knapsack that'sthe whole point you know a few
pairs of socks two three changesof clothes t-shirt and your
debit card and you're off to theraces you know so right It's
finding a three-week block oftime where I could do it.
So we're hoping that we canclose on our bank purchase in

(09:06):
July.
July, August, September areideal because there's more
daylight hours.
I could be out on the road for10 to 12 hours a day.
So, you know, we need a lot ofdaylight to do it.

SPEAKER_02 (09:18):
I did it in September, the second half of
September, twice.
And the weather...
Actually, it was wonderful.
It was not hot.
It didn't rain.
It was terrific weather.
And the crowds weren't as thickas they are in June and July.

SPEAKER_01 (09:35):
Yeah, you know, I had this very humbling moment.
You know, this time I went as...
You know, not as a grievingspouse, not as a new spouse the
second time, but I actually tooka couple of members of the
executive team on the third one.
So it was kind of, you know, avery different flavor.

(09:56):
Obviously, when you go with workcolleagues, I think we could
write a management book on thatweek.
You

SPEAKER_02 (10:03):
could.
That would be, I haven't seenthat particular book, but I
think that could be an amazing

SPEAKER_01 (10:08):
book.
It was an eye opening.
It was eye opening for all ofus.
And, you know, there weremoments of great tension and
camaraderie and, you know, bighealth issue in the middle of it
all.
And as I said to you, I had toget to the church on time and,

(10:31):
You know, it was fascinating, tobe honest with you.
And, you know, I'm alwaysthreatening to pick up pen to
paper and write about the Caminobecause it's that kind of
experience, right?
But it was, again, a verydifferent one.
You know, hearing differentperspectives on this great thing
that we have, this greatresource in an age where, you

(10:56):
know, everyone's beginning toquestion everything and truth
has become a...
you know, malleable commodity,you know, I think it's a great
recenter of, of, of, um, thiscan be great recenter, you know,
even if you're not religious andeverything else it's, it's, you
know, I learned something, I,you know, I learned this very

(11:17):
hard lesson when I was in theairport, um, waiting for, for
the flight back to the States.
And we had our, we had ourshelves on our backpack and, um,
feeling pretty good you know wewe did it you know and um this
couple wandered over to me andstarted to talk to me and yeah

(11:37):
you know we we did the caminoand he the guy looked at me he
said the whole thing and youknow what had happened was the
executive team that i'd gonewith you know this was my third
camino so it was a skip it was askip for me robert it was you
know There was no physical, youknow, I was well prepared, you

(12:00):
know, but obviously when you goin for your first time, you're
not prepared.
And, you know, I was judgingmembers of my own team on that
basis.
And, you know, what a lesson forme in the airport, you know,
that it's a relative thing andthat when I done my first, I was

(12:21):
extraordinarily raw and notready.
And, you know, we all like tobelieve we're good people when
we wake up in the morning.
And I believe that I am.
Don't get me wrong.
I believe I do my very best.
But holy smokes, you know.
So I took that as the shellbeing passed back to me.
Right.
And I took that as, you know,you've got to do something that

(12:44):
tests you.

SPEAKER_02 (12:45):
And this third one, where did you start?
Saria.
We started in Sarajevo.
All right.

SPEAKER_01 (12:51):
All right.
But it was hilarious, too.
You know, it was all kinds of,you know, guys, here's what you
here's what you need to bring.
Nobody brought it.
Everybody got major blisters,nearly killed one of us quite
literally in dehydration.
And, you know, there's alwaysgreat mirth as well as great
challenges, you know, and, youknow, the kindness of strangers
along the path, you know, alongthe way.

(13:13):
But there isn't one of us thatwouldn't do it again.
Not one.
So yeah, I got to wait to seewhen the regulator approves this
deal.
And we think it's going to beJuly.
And of course, I'm alwaysbell-ended by board meetings.
I got to be back for the boardmeetings.
So I really only have an openingperhaps at the beginning of

(13:34):
August and maybe the beginningof September to do it.
But I also need runway becausewe want to do a national
fundraiser for Fisher House whenwe do it.

SPEAKER_02 (13:45):
Oh, cool.
Let's talk about the bankacquisition.
Bank had assets roughly$300million, I believe.
Yeah, roughly around$300

SPEAKER_01 (13:57):
million.

SPEAKER_02 (13:58):
Two questions.
Why did you want to acquire it,number one?
Number two, why are you keepingit acting as its own brand?

SPEAKER_01 (14:10):
One thing I've learned in life is that You
know, people have a lot vestedin the organizations that they
dedicate their life.
As credit union people, youknow, we know that more than
most, right?
Because, yes, we get, you know,we get paid and we get great
benefits, I would hope.
But the great payment is seeingour community grow.

(14:30):
You know, I don't think thereisn't a credit union person that
couldn't go into banking and dovery well, you know.
But we choose to seek value inour lives in a different manner,
right?
Yeah, we need to provide forfamilies.
Yeah, we need to do that, getgreat joy in it.
But there's just something aboutseeing your community prosper
and knowing that you had a handin it and that the reason you

(14:53):
did it wasn't just to make aprofit.
There's nothing, again, there'snothing wrong about making a
profit.
It's essential to our economy.
But doing good, it's a differentform of payment that can never
be, it's never taxed and it'snever taken away from you,
right?
So it's pure payment, I think,for a lot of us in the credit
union land.
There's a couple of reasons whywe did this specific deal or

(15:18):
began to look for a bank.
And mostly, I believe that thecommunity banking model is in
deep trouble.
It's in deep, deep trouble.
I think there's a lot ofphenomenal bankers out there who
are deeply vested in theircommunity, but the ownership
model isn't going to work forcommunities across America.

(15:38):
Primarily, you're focused on theshareholder.
And that's why we're seeingbanking deserts arise all over
our country.
And banks, financialinstitutions, credit unions have
always been a pillar in everycommunity you go through.
There are now several towns thatdon't have any and some towns
that have too many, right?

(15:59):
Some towns of 15 to 20.
And yes, digital, the arrival ofdigital has changed access quite
a lot.
But as you know, I have alifelong passion, you know, not
just for digital transactions,but, you know, your membership,
giving you access to financialguidance, coaching and wellness.

(16:19):
You know, we had looked at acouple of a couple of deals.
People kind of really sang to mefor a couple of reasons.
Number one, it's geographicproximity to Washington,
Philadelphia, Wilmington, andBaltimore.
It's about an hour away.
Number two, that this was acommunity that had done very
well because it had a strongcommunity institution.

(16:42):
Number three, I think it's acommunity that's really going to
embrace the credit unionmessage.
All the local banks have beensold to bigger national players.
And they've seen the bignational players come in, take
the deposits out, and use thosedeposits in other markets.
And number four, the boardconsciously went out to find a
credit union.
And this board had gone tocredit union conferences, had

(17:04):
heard about what credit unionswere doing, and they needed to
deliver for the community, notjust a good stock price for the
shareholders.
But they really, really lookedto find a partner who were going
to invest in their areas.
And they really looked for aculture fit.
And that really blew my socksaway about this particular team.

SPEAKER_02 (17:24):
Now, you're telling me that they didn't read
American Banker and didn't knowthat you're the Antichrist.

SPEAKER_01 (17:30):
Well, I think they had heard from other community
bankers.
So if you think about it, Iunderstand the fear of community
bankers, which is– they'relimited by their model to expand
into other communities.
And then I think they fear that,look, if I expand into the next

(17:52):
town over, if I'm the West TownBank and I go to East Town, who
am I?
You know, who am I?
What's the bond?
And that's what's happenedacross our nation for, you know,
50, 60, 100 years.
But because credit unions tendto be mission and value centric,
you know, geographic as well asindustry, as we know, our bonds

(18:12):
tend to be stronger acrossgeographic barriers when we have
that kind of credit union.
And I think that's why creditunions are becoming really
attractive, you know, or havebeen really attractive across
our country.
You know, these things are notreal barriers to us.
And I think that there's a greatargument and debate.
As we all know, it's raged for along time and will rage for a

(18:36):
longer time to come.
Nobody is forcing theseinstitutions to sell to credit

SPEAKER_02 (18:40):
unions.
That's what I always say.
Peter Rice did not go toMaryland carrying an Armalite
wearing his IRA uniform.
He didn't do any of thosethings.
You waived a check and theysaid, oh, cool.
It's...

SPEAKER_01 (18:55):
You know, I tell you, as an industry, you know,
there's well, you know, weshould never negotiate ourselves
against ourselves and we shouldnever negotiate against our
members and the ability for anAmerican to bank where they want
to bank.
And so I see no reason to, youknow, tax these deals extra.
You know, most of the time inthe deal, there's a tax true up,

(19:15):
which is the equivalent of andwe should never feel guilty for
our mission.
I mean, we do pay taxes.
You know, we pay local taxes.
We pay federal employee taxes,Medicare, Medicaid.
We might not pay income tax, butthat's not something we should
have any guilt about.
That's something by design.
That's why our model isdifferent.

(19:35):
We're not for profit, and that'sthe key, and that's the strength
to us keeping on going.
So the other thing I'd say inthe grand debate of things is we
buy and sell assets all thetime.
As credit unions, we buy andsell assets from banks and other
institutions all of the time.
They don't complain about that.

(19:56):
We're not seeing cacophony overthat.
And if you think about the moralargument that's been used, which
is we should tax it, does thatmean every time a bank customer
opens up a credit union loanthat the IRS is losing tax money
and therefore there should be atax on that?
You know, I mean, that's thedegree, that's some of the

(20:17):
arguments that I've heard areirrational arguments.
But again, I also think, Robert,that these are parlor side
conversations.
Most bankers really aren'ttalking about it.
They're not particularly worriedby credit unions.
It does seem to be theindependent community bankers
association.

(20:37):
And I think they are fearfulbecause, you know, They could
sell to a bigger bank, but theyknow what happens.
Or they could- And

SPEAKER_02 (20:47):
I agree with you.
And you said this some minutesago that community banks as a
species are endangered.
Yeah.
And it has nothing to do withcredit unions.
It has to do with- Nothing.
Big trends that are happening inthe banking and the fintech
world.
Agreed.
Agreed.
And do community banks- providea service.

(21:11):
Yes, they do.
Yes, they do.
Absolutely do.
But nonetheless, I view them asreally, they're on life support.
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (21:24):
And because of their business model, they haven't had
the ability to invest as muchcapital in the evolution of
their communities or theirbanking model.
And it's a great shame.
And But it doesn't have to be adisaster story.
So obviously, just us going intothat section of Maryland is

(21:48):
going to be a game changer forthose communities.
And it's going to provide themwith a great option and a vote
as a member.
A lot of them, because they'renot shareholders, don't get to
vote in this transaction.

UNKNOWN (22:02):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (22:02):
But they will as members.
And they'll have a say, a stakein the financial support of the
community going forward.
So I'm looking forward to, youknow, I've already obviously
been down there meeting withsome community leaders.
And, you know, they've been sowelcoming.
And I think it's just atremendous opportunity for us.

(22:25):
And one we're looking forward toclosing on hopefully soon.
Are you going to

SPEAKER_02 (22:29):
be dividing your time between Maryland and
Boston?

SPEAKER_01 (22:34):
Yeah, I think, you know, we've actually been in
Virginia for 20 years, Robert.
We've had a location in McLean,Virginia, for 20 years.
We have 10,000 members in NewHampshire.
We have about 5,000 members inFlorida.
Actually, our longest servingand most engaged members are

(22:55):
actually all in the state ofGeorgia.
Wow.
we've got about a thousandmembers in georgia who have the
who have the longest durationand the deepest relationships um
and um you know we're up anddown the eastern seaboard and
again hanscom is is not really ageographic entity it's you know
our core member our you knowmilitary federal employees their

(23:18):
families and anyone who servedamerica um so we're actually
quite broad i think our name andyou kind of brought up um the
people's bank name.
In the negotiation, when you'resitting negotiating things like
this, whether it's a creditunion deal or a bank deal,
there's a lot of emotion.

(23:38):
It's their life's work.
You're talking about theirlife's work.
We started off this conversationby talking about grief.
A lot of the time, people aregrieving for this great entity
that they gave their life for.

SPEAKER_02 (23:52):
Most of these community bankers that you're
dealing with, usually theirfather or their grandfather
started this bank.
It doesn't go much beyondgrandfather, maybe
great-grandfather in a handfulof cases.
But it's a family business, andthey've had some pride in this
business, as they should.

(24:12):
And giving up that business, youwant to give it to someone who
will be a good steward.
Exactly.
Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (24:19):
So it's no skin off our nose to agree to keep...
It can't be called People'sBank, of course, but it will be,
you know, People's, andunderneath it'll say Powered by
Hanscom.
You know, on the shingle, as anode, you know, they've been
around for over 100 years.
I think that we can afford a tipof the cap, you know, to that

(24:40):
kind of legacy and history.
And, you know, as the staff andcommunity, as we deliver on the
promises that we've made tothem, right?
So in the long scheme of things,I think that that's the right
thing to do and a good thing todo and an appropriate way to, as
I said, to acknowledge a greatlegacy.
What's

SPEAKER_02 (24:58):
your view?
Will credit unions lose theirtax exemption?

SPEAKER_01 (25:02):
I think we all know that that would be devastating
for a lot of small creditunions.

SPEAKER_02 (25:06):
I'll tell you, I've heard this from a very smart
guy.
He thinks it would be mostdevastating to the really big
credit unions, many of whichwould demutualize.

SPEAKER_01 (25:15):
It's not so much the paying of taxes.
It's the equity then in themodel.

SPEAKER_02 (25:21):
It's

SPEAKER_01 (25:21):
the business.
He said they'd

SPEAKER_02 (25:22):
have to change their business structure
fundamentally, and if they'regoing to do that, they might as
well demutualize.

SPEAKER_01 (25:29):
Yes, and I think that that's one of the
longer-term goals of the bankingassociations, is exactly that.
I think they see credit unionsas actually ripe for a merger
opportunity, but how do youconvert them?
How do you get them to becomebanks?
And so, you know, I think theyright now they have, you know,

(25:51):
their point in the moral finger.
But, you know, as I as I as Igame this out and there's a lot
of bigger credit unions game itup because one of the things,
you know, within our industry isnegotiating against ourselves.
And what I mean by that is, oh,sure, tax the bigger ones, but
not the smaller ones.
And number one, taxes just don'twork like that.
You know, taxes are they'reimportant, but they're also a

(26:13):
little bit creeping andinsidious at times.
So once you agree that creditunions should be taxed.
It won't be long before we'reall taxed.
And then you get the biggercredit unions who might see it
as a great merger opportunityfor smaller credit unions to
finally merge into the biggercredit unions.
And, you know, that's all welland good, but I think then you'd

(26:33):
lose a lot of flavor and colorthat credit unions bring to the
table.
If that happens also.
So, you know, if people aregoing to merge, Robert, I really
I would prefer if it wasn'tbecause of taxation issues.
I'd much rather marriages bebased on positivity issues.
Of course, this is the realityof business.
I get that.
But, you know, I, for one, I'mrooting for all my credit union

(26:55):
cousins out there who areserving unique groups of people
who've been marginalized for onereason or another.
And they see this as a great wayto, you know, build their
community and provide extrabenefits, you know, that the
market just doesn't.
So it would make me very sad tosee us taxed.
And, you know, my argument hasbeen, and, you know, if anyone

(27:16):
follows me on LinkedIn, it'sbeen, you know, I can't believe
that any administration would belooking to increase taxes.
But it is a double tax.
Our members have already paidtaxes on their money.
And, you know, they're notgetting any profit in return.
It's a different modelcompletely.
But I do think, yeah, thatbankers would love to see us
taxed because they realize thata lot could shift to a banking

(27:42):
charter.
And, you know, that would be aninteresting time, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_02 (27:47):
Who do you compete with?
Who are your competitors?
And some years ago, I asked,this is going back several CEOs,
the CEO of Navy Federal.
Do you compete with PenFed?
Is that your primary competitor?
He said, no, my primarycompetitor is USAA.

SPEAKER_01 (28:06):
Yeah, no, I'm going to give you what will seem to be
too clever an answer by half,which is I'm competing for the
member, period.
I know that there's people outthere doing great things, bigger
and smaller, in terms of assetsize or, to your point,
ambition.
But I think part of the reasonfor our success and part of the

(28:29):
reason why we're able to be soagile and do all these new and
exciting things is because we'revery focused on the member, the
basics of business.
I built my career one member ata time because if you're not
good in that next interaction,it could cost you a lot.
You know, if you're off with onemember, you give one member, you
know, very bad service, youknow, it could destroy a career

(28:53):
and their lives too, right?
So I think the other thing is,you know, we're very
comparative.
And I think this is a goodthing, a very comparative
industry.
And a lot of boards, and I wentthrough this with my board when
I arrived, which is what areother credit unions doing?
And we were comparing ourselvesall the time to other credit

(29:15):
unions.
And then we've done some dataanalysis and found out that the
vast majority of our membersbank with Bank of America and
not the other credit unions whowe've been comparing ourselves
to for so long.
And that was kind of eye-openingfor all of us because...
If

SPEAKER_02 (29:30):
you have a competitor, not you, but pretty
much all credit unions, withyoung members, your competitor
is Chase or B of A.

SPEAKER_01 (29:39):
Yeah, Chase and B of A.
And the interesting thing thereis...
Bank of America grow our size inMassachusetts every year.
Right.
And people hate them.

SPEAKER_02 (29:54):
Well, you know, it's normal.
It's normal.
Right.
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (29:59):
But so what we have to do or what I have to do again
is why?
Then you really got to get underand find out why.
Right.
this is happening because I'mwilling to bet that most of the
credit unions that listen toyour podcast have NPS scores
that blow Disney away, you know,and of course we would point

(30:19):
that to a competitive advantageand it is, but we seem to be
losing the fight with youngermembers, you know, and it's
interesting because the youngergenerations are, you know, value
driven.
They want a better world andthey want a better community and
they've had more time to dothese things, right?
We have different kind ofdifferent jobs than we had 50,

(30:41):
60 years ago when we were allworking in the metal and steel
plants for 12 hours a day.
You really weren't lookingaround.
You didn't have the time to lookaround and say, what are the
other things that I can do thatcan enrich my life and my
community?
The modern economy that we havegives a lot of us that kind of
luxury to start debating thebigger things in life and how to

(31:02):
be a better society.
And I think it's a shame thatcredit unions are often left out
you know of those discussionsyou know credit union is
something granddad and grandmadid um and more worrisome um and
this is anecdotal i don't havedata on this point um is the

(31:23):
amount of accidental members wehave and what i mean by that is
they came in through a you knowindirect auto loan or indirectly
to the credit union and thencycled right back out again and
then of course interestingly asi talked to you know, members of
Congress and the Senate, youknow, about credit unions, a lot

(31:44):
no longer know how we work andthat we're democratic in nature.
So, you know, the great newsabout this tax fight is that
it's getting, it's shaking allof us up and reminding us that
we've got to get out into ourcommunities, not just our member
community, but the widercommunity and tell people how
and why we do things and whythat matters to communities.

SPEAKER_02 (32:08):
One thing that worries credit union lobbyists
that I've heard is that ageneration of members in the
House and the Senate were verypro-credit union.
70%.
It's not like the younger onesare anti-credit union.
They just aren't credit unionpeople.
They haven't heard about creditunions.

(32:29):
Might as well tell them aboutlife on Mars.

SPEAKER_01 (32:33):
Life on Mars, that arrived because access to credit
50 years ago was very difficult.
50 years

SPEAKER_02 (32:43):
ago, if you were a factory worker in Lowell, you
got paid in cash in an envelopeevery other Friday.
It was cash money.
You didn't have a checkingaccount.

SPEAKER_01 (32:52):
Nope, you didn't have one.
When you went for a loan...
You know, if the bank gave yourfather a loan, you would have
gotten a loan and it would havebeen done on the handshake,
right?
So, you know, society isdifferent today.
People have a lot of choices.
But, you know, I really thinkwe're missing out on a great

(33:12):
opportunity to make informeddecisions.
I mean, we've seen wholegenerations, you know, stop
using...
plastic, stop eating certainkinds of food, all based on
their research into how thatimpacts societies and
environments.
And yet here we are with thistremendous model that could be a

(33:33):
great vehicle for so many ofthese changes that we need to
make, and it's going untapped.
And again, we're fantastic.
We have all of the technologiesthat the bigger guys have.
But I think if we can justharness and tell our story in
new and exciting ways, I thinkwe can get more people to join.

(33:54):
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 (33:55):
Are you involved in organizations that help tell the
credit union story?
Yeah.
And I know Acuna from time totime has done this.
I've never actually thought theydid a very good job of telling
the story.
I thought the intention wasadmirable, but the execution
didn't really work for me.

SPEAKER_01 (34:13):
Yeah, I think what happens is We're the good guys,
right?
And, you know, whenever ourpolitical leadership see us
coming, we're like, hey, we'rethe good guys.
And the whole politicalapparatus is based on problems.
Solving problems.
So we're not a problem.
So we're always kind of, youknow, here's the nice guys and

(34:36):
that's it.
Like we're not involved in thein and this is a very
generalization.
So forgive me, everybody,because I know some of you out
there are.
So, for example, you know, I seemy job as advocating for my
members.
My primary vehicle is to do thatthrough through banking.
But I probably spend about 25%of my time advocating on bills,

(34:58):
be it from disabled Americanveterans, be it bills that we're
proposing.
So I do a lot of lobbying.
This morning, I was at abreakfast with a freshman
congresswoman, Maggie Goodlanderfrom New Hampshire, and she's on
the Armed Services Committee.
You know, so every week I'mmeeting with some congressional

(35:18):
leader on other issues that arenot necessarily direct credit
union issues, but that impact mycommunity.
And what I'm doing is I'mletting our leaders know that,
you know, Hanscom's got 100,000members who love their country,
who have served their country ortheir family member served their
country.
This matters to them and itmatters to me.

(35:39):
So, you know, Pay attention.
You know, this is an importantissue for the members of Hanscom
and their credit union movement.
And, you know, that's why thebanks and other companies have
been so successful lobbying.
They don't just come out whenthere's an emergency.
They're out leading all of thetime on the issues affecting

(35:59):
their community.
And I

SPEAKER_02 (36:00):
think that's how we- Yeah, a lobbyist told me that.
And he wasn't bashing CUNA orAmerica's Credit Union.
What do you think?
If you want to have influence ona member, you can't just go once
a year and walk the hill.
You have to develop arelationship over time, not just
with the member, but with themember's staff.

(36:22):
And you don't need to go tolunch once a week, have a cup of
coffee every so often.
You say, drop by, say hello.
And don't ask for anything.
Every once in a while you comeup with an ask, but some of the
time you're just there sayinghello, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_01 (36:41):
That's how it's done.
So you asked about, yes, I do.
I chair the DCUC, the DefenseCredit Union National Advocacy
Fund.
And I also serve on CUNA's WorldAffairs Committee.
And, you know, tremendousorganizations.
So

SPEAKER_02 (36:59):
you must be a fan of Tony Hernandez because he's made
this organization much moreaggressive than I remember it
being.

SPEAKER_01 (37:05):
Yeah, you know, Tony has, you know...
He's been the first to noticethings from the watchtower.
He's really, really been aneffective leader in the credit
union organization, not just fordefense credit unions, but the
entirety of our organization.
Oh, absolutely.

(37:25):
And he just, of course, hiredJason and You know, on that
lobbying side, and Jason isjust, he's dynamite.
He knows the hill well.
There's a very firm strategythere.
We talk all the time.
We're engaged.
You know, I'm also on the NewEngland Council, which is a body

(37:48):
of the six states in NewEngland.
And New England only has about5% of the population, the United
States.
I'm probably going to infuriatehalf the listeners here with
this.
with this next brag, but we'vegot 12% of the Senate.
You know, with 5% of thepopulation, 12% of the Senate.
So the New England block isquite important, you know, on

(38:11):
issues of voting.
So, and the area tends to take aregional outlook on things.
So, you know, I spend my timeheavily working with, you know,
the elected officials from thisgreater New England district
because they tend to go in withthe Team New England view.
You know, they realize that, youknow, Massachusetts can't do

(38:31):
well without New Hampshire doingwell.
You know, we can't do well ifConnecticut's not doing well.
And, you know, while New York isnot in New England, you know,
believe it or not, outside ofbaseball and sports, we do want
our adjacent states to do wellas well, right?
Just not in sports.

SPEAKER_02 (38:49):
Upstate

SPEAKER_01 (38:49):
New York.
has a lot in

SPEAKER_02 (38:51):
common

SPEAKER_01 (38:51):
with

SPEAKER_02 (38:51):
New Hampshire.

SPEAKER_01 (38:53):
Oh, yeah.
And the Berkshires, absolutely.
You know, you raised aninteresting point, right?
So there's a state line there,but the Berkshires extend into
New York, you know, andConnecticut.
So, yeah, it's...
And it's great, you know, and Iknow NAFCU and CUNA merged to
America's Credit Unions.
And, you know, I think JimNussel has done a great job, I

(39:18):
think, bringing to, you know, Iknow a lot of people were
unhappy perhaps with the merger,but that's a reality.

SPEAKER_02 (39:26):
Some people tell me DCU has gotten more aggressive
in part because it's filling avoid that was left by the end of
NAFCU.

SPEAKER_01 (39:36):
Yeah, I think that Tony and team and our wider team
really recognize the existentialthreats that we're facing.

SPEAKER_02 (39:49):
And here's the deal.
Nobody in Congress isanti-military.
Nobody.
Yeah, nobody.
So if Tony goes or his lobbyistgoes and knocks on the door,
okay.
Yeah.
I like you guys, if I'm a memberof Congress.

SPEAKER_01 (40:08):
Tony is a straight shooter.
You don't have to wonder wherehe is.
I know where he is.
He's on the front line rightnow.
He's dialing some congresspersonor some senator.
Him and Jason.
It's been a pleasure to getinvolved and to see such
vibrancy on behalf of creditunions.

(40:30):
Anyone can join DCUC, by theway.
As long as you have oneEverybody has at least one
veteran or serving military.
Every credit union does.
You know, it's a couple ofbooks, you know, but it's money
so well spent.
I mean, these guys are on it andthey work in cooperation with,

(40:50):
you know, with America's creditunions and with a lot of our
regional, certainly here in theCCUA, up here in the Northeast
and Delaware.
I mean, I'm hand in hand withthose guys too.
But, you know, but Tony is rightthere in D.C., along with Jason.
And they know how to navigatethat world.

(41:12):
And they see the threats comingfor all of us.
So I'm just delighted with thatorganization and the support
that they give to all the creditunions.
And you're right.
They are aggressive inrepresenting credit.
us because they realize thegreat existential threat.

(41:37):
Some of it was the unfortunateNavy Fed and the banking
contract on the bases, thethreat of reopening the Credit
Union Act on that basis.
That was a real existentialthreat to our industry.
And here we are two years laternow with the other lobbies
going, hey, these guys over hereare They're doing these things.

(41:57):
They have airplanes.
They have baseball stadiumsponsorships and so on and so
forth.
The fight has really opened up,and I think Tony was the first
to call it.
He got it right.
I like seeing his aggressivity,

SPEAKER_02 (42:10):
and it's well-channeled.
He's not just throwing puncheshere and there.

SPEAKER_01 (42:13):
No, Tony is extremely considered and Jason.
And, you know, I have the insidebaseball on this one because I
work with them.
Very, very considered.
And they're also gaming thingsout.
They're not reactive.
So, you know, a couple of weeksago we had CDFI.
They were on the phone.
CDFI was announced on Friday.
They were on the phones at 5a.m.

(42:36):
on Saturday morning.
And as we all know, you know,CDFI now is back in game.
You know, they were ready.
because they take time to investin strategy.
not just tactics.
Couldn't get, and they're asmall but mighty team, you know,
but they are on it.
You know, we have this sacredduty, right, to make sure that
we pass this thing on.
And if we don't get in the fightnow, you know, we could be

(42:58):
taxed.
There are several bills outthere that are existential
threats.
And make no mistake, you know,wherever your credit union is,
you've got to get in the game.
You've got to get in this fightright now.
And one thing we know,regardless of whoever you voted
for, you know, that theadministration right now makes
decisions quickly.
So don't be waiting.
You know, don't sit in thesidelines.

(43:21):
The president moves quick, youknow, so you could wake up in
the morning and he could say,you know, absolutely, credit
unions need to be taxed.
And that's it.
It's over.

SPEAKER_02 (43:32):
Let's hop into your questing room in Government
Center in Boston.
I was reading over the pressreleases this morning.
I remembered Government Centeronce upon a time was called
Scully Square.
And it was basically a skid rowthat was ripped down in the 50s.
I mean, just obliterated.

(43:54):
And every time I see GovernmentCenter, I say, oh, Scully
Square.
But I'm an old guy, so...

SPEAKER_01 (43:59):
Yeah, no.
No, I think the true Bostonianwould probably still call it
Scully Square.
Oh,

SPEAKER_02 (44:09):
I lived in Boston in the early 70s, and there was
many people called it ScullySquare.
Yeah, yeah, still, still.
I'm

SPEAKER_01 (44:16):
very blessed to live in this area and have access to
the history that Boston has, andparticularly the...
its impact on the history of ournation.
We're very proud of it here.
We're very proud that therevolution began here.
Boston

SPEAKER_02 (44:34):
also intertwines with Ireland in a way that no
other American city really does.

SPEAKER_01 (44:39):
Well, it's that shared love of freedom.
It's that shared love of, Idon't take my freedoms for
granted, given my heritage andbackground and watching my home
people struggle for freedom for800 years.
And, you know, never give up andnot be diminished, but see
things such as your religion,your language, and your culture,
you know, attempted to bedestroyed and, you know,

(45:02):
attempted genocide throughfamines.
You know, we have a long passionand history with freedom.
And, you know, for me growing upas a kid, I dreamed of coming to
America so I would know thedignity of a job.
It was the height of myaspirations.
The dignity of just having a jobthat I could send money home to

(45:24):
my mom to make her life a littleeasier.
And that was the same dream asall the other kids.
Ireland until

SPEAKER_02 (45:33):
mid-1990s was pretty close to a third world country.

SPEAKER_01 (45:37):
Yeah, it absolutely was.
Yeah, it got better after Ileft, Robert.
Seems like I was the drain onthe National Exchequer.

UNKNOWN (45:47):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (45:48):
But they actually made some smart moves.
They got Apple to open up.
They got Dell computer to openup.
I mean, they started doing somesmart things in the 90s.

SPEAKER_01 (45:59):
Well, when I grew up, and I'll tell you where that
change came from, because I knowthe moment and I know the
person.
Ireland, when I grew up, stillhad this colonial hangover.
still very unsure of itself.
You know, confidence wasn'tthere.

(46:21):
We'd won independence, but whatnext?
And, you know, we had relativesall over the world.
Every Christmas, these peoplewould come back from America and
Australia and England andCanada.
You know, their teeth were whiteand straight and their clothes
were clean, pressed, and theyhad not just jobs, but they were

(46:42):
managers and lawyers anddoctors.
It just blew our minds.
And there was a degree ofresentment, you know, here come
the Yanks or here come theAussies and they're going to say
that they're Irish and they'renot because we're the real Irish
because we stayed and suffered.
And that was the mentality.
And then the country elected itsfirst president who happened to

(47:06):
be female, Mary Robinson.
And Mary Robinson started offthis beautiful tradition.
And for those of you who arewondering about the links
between the strong links.
I mean, the White House wasdesigned by an Irish guy, an
Irish architect called Hoban.
And he also designed theAmerican ambassador's residence
in Ireland.
America didn't exist at thetime.
And the current president ofIreland's house.

(47:29):
And it's a miniature copy of theWhite House.
The same building, it's justsmaller.
And she decided to light acandle every night in the window
for all the people who hademigrated and the families that
had been ripped up due totrauma.
It was like, for the first timeas a people, we could confront
the trauma that we experiencedin losing family members.

(47:52):
One of the stories I tell you,and you undoubtedly know this,
Robert, is what we call theAmerican Wake, which is the
night before you emigrated, yourfamily, and forgive me as I get
a little teary-eyed, but yourfamily would throw your funeral
because they knew they werenever going to see you again.
It's dramatic in only the waythe Irish could be dramatic.
But that was the truth.

(48:13):
It was the last time they weregoing to see these young people
in their community.
And so they threw a wake.
And for those who don't knowwhat an Irish wake is, we
celebrate death a little bitdifferently.
We celebrate the person's life.
And it really is a hooli.
It really is a party and it'sfull of great joy and mirth.
But if you think about that,it's heartbreaking.

(48:36):
And don't get me wrong, I thinkeverybody was delighted to see
their folks go and have thesebetter lives.
And we all believe in ourchildren.
The only people in your life whoreally want you to do better
than them is your family a lotof the times, your parents.
But communities then weredesolated.
All the young people, all thatenergy left, all that innovation

(48:59):
left.
And the effect it had on thecountry was to stay socially
stagnant for a very long time.
Um, but Mary Robinson really,you know, lighting that candle
allowed us to confront that partof our history that we hadn't
confronted.
And again, for, for listeners,Ireland is a tiny, tiny country
with 5 million people, butaround the globe, there's about

(49:21):
70 to 80 million people whoclaim Irish heritage.
You know, it's, it's, it'samazing.
So we're very proud of thatlegacy now as a, as a nation
that we had these great roots,these common bonds and, um,
Mary, President Robinson'sthinking all of a sudden
developed these great businessrelationships because the other
great builder of communities isbusiness.
And today, Irish companiesemploy 200,000 Americans in

(49:44):
America, and American companiesemploy 200,000 Irish in Ireland.
And we have these ancestrallinks, common language, common
law.
We have the same kind of legalsystem based on common law.
And Ireland, as you pointed out,in the 90s, you know, became
this great destination forbusinesses to gain entry into
Europe and vice versa.

(50:07):
You know, America became thisgreat market where, you know,
Irish companies, tech companies,et cetera, could do business and
links with.
So it's been this greatrediscovery.
And I myself, you know, like alot of listeners, I've done my
DNA test and was stunned to findout that I've know over four

(50:27):
thousand uh second and thirdcousins here in america you know
just the impact anatomy wastremendous at the time so the
questing room so what what whatwhy that when we we think about
relevance you know i'm i'malways looking around the world
and you know i'm i spend a lotof time with folks who are older

(50:48):
than me and a lot of time withfolks who are way younger than
me and i'm always fascinated bythe commonalities and the
differences and the differencesin culture here in America.
There's a lot of differentcultures and perspectives.
But there's these common threadsthat run through every culture.
And as you probably know,Robert, I grew up in Ireland,
spent a lot of time in theUnited Kingdom, and at one point

(51:09):
spent 20, 25% of my time inJapan.
That was my originalundergraduate.
I worked for the governor inNagano Prefecture for three
years.
I'm someone who's always tryingto find the commonalities.
And one of the things I'velearned When I'm struggling with
things, and I'll give you anexample, you know, I get this

(51:30):
great scholarship as a young kidand they send me off to Japan on
this scholarship and I got to golearn the language and, you
know, you're reading these booksin college and, you know, it's
business, business for, orJapanese for business people.
And I just wasn't getting it,Robert.
I just couldn't, there seems tobe bits that I was missing.

(51:52):
So I remember walking into abookstore and seeing a mother
take her two children, a youngboy and a girl, over to the book
section for three-year-olds andgive them books.
And I saw these kids start toread the books.
It triggered something in mymind, and I said, wait a minute.
I'm reading a business book herein Japanese, but what about the
first 20 years?

(52:12):
I'm missing that wholeeducation, that whole evolution.
So I went and I bought all thebooks for three-year-olds.
Then when I finished them, four,five-year-olds, six-year-olds,
seven-year-olds.
And within two years, I was ableto yap away in the language
fluently and then go work forthe governor of Nagano
Prefecture.
And again, it was learning toplay to learn, I think, is

(52:38):
something that we forget as wegrow older, even though play
still becomes a major part ofour lives.
So there isn't an adult that Idon't know that doesn't play
golf or some sport orpickleball.
There isn't a person that I knowhasn't been to some sort of
coaching or hasn't paid forcoaching for themselves, their
children, or their pets.

(52:58):
But nobody thinks about applyingthese tools that we have as
humanity to the area offinancial well-being.

SPEAKER_02 (53:14):
And when companies have done it, I remember the
first generation of PFMs.
They were about as exciting asflossing your teeth.
They really were.
Were they bad tools?
No.
But it seemed like drudgery.
Oh, wow.
How many minutes do I have tofloss my teeth?

(53:35):
It's, okay, if you say so.
And what would happen after aweek or so?
Most people would give up.
Yeah.
Nothing wrong with the tool.
Nothing wrong with

SPEAKER_01 (53:46):
the tool.
It's, you know, to this day, youknow, I still think when I'm out
visiting the branches thatsomeone's going to ask me to
leave, you know, because thestigma I had growing up about
banks and banks judging you and,you know, were you good enough
for credit?
You know, just trying to tapinto those experiences that I
had in my own life.

(54:07):
then look at people around meand then there's this you know
these other big challenges youknow which is outside of
transactions how can i reallylive out the credit union
mission and of course i said thelast time i was on your podcast
that the word credit comes fromthe latin credo which means to
believe and um you know how cani prepare our members um for

(54:30):
what's ahead their dreams andchallenges and so we began to
experiment and and the otherthing i think about our industry
is innovation is punished.
It's punished.
And we don't invest enough init.
We do a lot of white labeling.
And that's a financial necessityfor most of us most of the time.

(54:53):
But we really, really wanted totake a little bit of risk here.
But we wanted to pay make surethe risk was being taken on our
mission and values.
You know, how are we deliveringon our mission statement, which
is to be the trusted advisorthat people turn to for unbiased
financial guidance.
So in other words, how can weencourage our members to make
their best decisions?

(55:14):
And so for years, as you know,I've been a really solid
advocate of financial wellnessand coaching.
But when we talk about coaching,it's not financial literacy.
It's your behavior with money.
And how money, how all yourbehaviors are done good and bad
through money.
And also, you know, are yougetting value in your life?

(55:34):
And then using data to support,you know, that member on their
journey to making decisions thatadd value to their lives.
And I've seen tremendous resultwith coaching programs and
particularly here at Hanscom.
You know, the statistics aroundthe coached member and the
uncoached member are starklydifferent in terms of, you know,
their engagement with the creditunion, their usage of the credit

(55:57):
union and all of our servicesand channels, and the impact on
their emotions and their ownindividual balance sheet.
It's quite stunning, to behonest.
So then the next question came,what are we going to do in our
branches?
You know, other than coaching,how could we...
build upon a stigma-free andmake us vibrant and relevant in

(56:22):
our communities, an actualdestination.
And I don't mean, you know, Iknow there's credit unions.
People go and they eat theirlunch at work.
At work time, they go to thecredit union for lunch or they
get a coffee at the creditunion.
But I wanted to create and wewanted to create a space where
it was safe for members to comein, engage, have some fun, And I

(56:43):
don't say that lightly, by theway.
You know, go down to the creditunion and have some fun.
To fail small and win big, whereour members could actually begin
to experiment with their hopesand dreams and break down some
barriers.
And you do that through play.
And so we decided to build outquesting rooms.
Now, I know a lot of yourlisteners have probably been to
an escape room or a quest roomwith some description.

(57:05):
If you haven't, you reallyshould.
I strongly recommend that youshould take your team to one of
these locations because they arethe best place to study your
team dynamics.
They're a great place to learnabout yourself and your team
because you go in with a missionunder a time constraint.
So it creates the right amountof pressure that's safe.

(57:28):
And you're going to see how yourteam perform on tasks firsthand
and see how they work togetheror not, what styles people have
and what styles they don't.
And so that was, by the way, anunexpected consequence of these
questing rooms.
And we're now actually workingwith our SEGs to bring the
companies that we support as ateam day or a team event to the

(57:50):
WealthTrack Center to go throughthe questing process.
So we opened, our first one wasin Burlington, Massachusetts,
and that was a pilot.
We deliberately opened a pilotbranch to test it for six to
nine months just to build a usecase, but also so that we could
tweak it and get it right.
And if you were to go toBurlington, It's a great

(58:11):
challenge.
It's very, very kind of analogand not much data collection
available in the room.
But we got tremendous feedbackfrom it.
And we actually began workingwith Regis University here in
Boston.
And I'm very proud of this.
Regis University, we beganworking with Mary Jean Hughes,
who's a professor at theoccupational therapy department

(58:31):
over there.
And she just happened to be amember.
She discovered the BurlingtonRoom and began to take her
graduate students there.
And all of a sudden, you know,through conversations, we said
we've got to get together andstart to see, you know, is there
ways that we could partner andwhat could this room or quest
and concept do?
So again, for the listeners,occupational therapists, their

(58:53):
main goal is to developindependence in their patients
so that they can go back outinto the community and live full
lives.
And so occupational therapistswork with, you know, stroke
victims, wounded militarypatients, folks who are going
through some mental healthissues, folks who might be on
the spectrum, folks who mighthave Down syndrome.

(59:13):
And their main task is to bringthese people together and again,
teach them independent communityskills so their self-esteem
builds and they can go back outinto the community.
And so we started that processand the graduate students
studied it, began to think aboutapplications and then noted the
health benefits that questingcould have with folks who are

(59:35):
bipolar, folks who'd hadstrokes, you know, this room was
helping them win back theirself-esteem through play and the
ability to communicate withothers and do group programs.
And they all enjoyed it.
Everybody who's gone into theserooms from the age of six to 86
is the eldest person we've hadin there.
I've had two star generals inthere, Robert, and they've had a
great time and you can hear themlaughing their heads off and

(59:58):
engaging in a way in theirfinances that perhaps they
hadn't thought possible beforethis.
So we're really, really excitedby the concept.
We've been testing it for abouta year and a half now all told.
And so we decided to open onein, as you pointed out, Scully
Square in Boston, which, youknow, anybody knows, city

(01:00:18):
centers globally tend to gothrough, you know, periods of
great wealth and greatdestruction.
The government center in Bostonis It's teetering on the edge
right now of either it's goingto go one direction or it's
going to go another direction.
And we saw this greatopportunity as a credit union to
get in there and make sure thatScully Square went in the right

(01:00:40):
direction.
Because I think, you know,again, banks were pulling out.
This was a great opportunity forus to win as a credit union and
put this beacon of positivityand community inclusion in an
area.
where families, schools, andgroups could go through the
questing process.
But we decided to wait a littlebit longer than perhaps I would

(01:01:01):
have liked because we decided tomake it a far more digital
experience so we could collectdata on it and that we could
give to teams after they werefinished.
We could give them specific datapoints for their team and
themselves to kind of encourage.
But we also decided to dosomething a little bit different
with the theme of this place.
The theme of our WealthTreklocation in Boston is based on

(01:01:24):
fraud.
Because I don't know one personin this nation who has not
gotten a fraudulent text oremail.
And the amount of members andfamily members who are falling
for it is just unbelievable.
The fraudsters are that good.
And we all know this.
I mean, they're professionalbusinesses.
People go to work at the fraudoffice all day long.

(01:01:46):
This isn't being done out of abasement somewhere.
These are being done out ofoffice blocks in cities.
And we decided, how could webuild confidence?
Because anyone who falls forfraud, and I'm sure your
listeners know this, it's notjust the money that's gone.
It's the self-esteem.
It's the fact that you werefooled or you felt suckered.

(01:02:10):
And it really, really is a blow.
And if people are elderly oryoung, like I think about my
son, he's built up so muchpride.
He's 15.
He's very independent.
But if somebody stole money fromhim, I think that that would be
a real blow to his self-esteem.
Today, you'd shake your fingerand say, watch out for this and
watch out for that.

(01:02:31):
But we've built an interactiveexperience that actually puts
people through it in a funmanner so that when it does
happen to them, they're veryprepared.
And if they do fall for it, theyalso know what to do next and so
that they don't panic.
I

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:45):
still remember being scammed out of 20 bucks 30 years
ago.
Was the 20 a big deal?
No, it wasn't a big deal.
was that I was scammed.
Yeah, I'll tell you myexperience.
And honestly, 20 bucks reallydidn't matter.
What mattered was my sense ofself was shattered.

(01:03:09):
You fell for this, you fool.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've got to tell you a story,but it's not my story.
It's my sister's story.
But she lives in Ireland, so Idon't know that she'll ever
listen to this, so maybe it'ssafe to tell it.
She's a very accomplishedsurgeon, very brilliant person.
You know, one day she went toschool with her rock collection,
her semi-precious stone rockcollection to show to the

(01:03:34):
teacher.
And when she came home fromschool, some kid had replaced it
with pebbles from the yardoutside the school.
And, you know, like you'resaying, to this day, I mean, the
cost of it was a couple ofbooks, but she still talks about
it as raw today.
as the day it happened.

(01:03:56):
You know, it's like you feel, itjust steals so much
self-confidence.
And of course, there is the manycases, as we know, where people
do lose their, and of course wefollow the regs on it all, but,
you know, initially they thinkthey've lost everything.
it's it's awful especially ourour you know elderly mem members
and particularly our members whodeploy uh they're they're

(01:04:19):
extremely prone to it becauseyou know they're they're they're
not able to if you're on amission in afghanistan you're
not getting you know text alertsyou know so we we do see that
within our community one last

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:31):
question

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:33):
yep uh nestle

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:34):
You

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:35):
know, I think if you want to go out on top, I think
if, you know, Jim...

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:41):
He's kind of leaving with unanswered questions,
though, like tax exemption.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:45):
His background is steeped in political leadership,
and...
very few people with that kindof background, you know, they,
they, they know that they dothese things for a time and that
there's so only so much that youcan achieve.
I think Jim has alwaysthroughout his career.
If you look at his career, he'skind of always known the moment.

(01:05:07):
And he, I

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:07):
think he's 65 or about just about doing the math.
I said, Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:13):
Yeah.
What a, what a, you know, what acareer.
Not just representing us, butrepresenting his district.
And I think the other thing thatwe might forget is that's a 24-7
job.
I mean, these guys, theseleaders, whether you agree with
their positions or not, theygive it all.
You cannot go into Jim Nussel'sposition or Tony Hernandez's

(01:05:37):
position and be a slouch.
It's going to be found out veryquick.
I mean, they work their socksoff.
They give it all.
I wish him well in hisretirement.
And I think that whether peopleagreed with NAFCU or some of his
positions or you're greatsupporters of Jim, and he has
many, I think you have to salutehim and say, good for you.

(01:05:59):
You stood up.
You've done your thing.
I think the tax fight is alwaysgoing to go on, by the way.
I just think it's particularlyvicious at the moment because
our the banking lobby understandthe chaos that that that as
america reshapes uh that this is

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:15):
the issue that guys i was talking with a lobbyist
who said you know you can thinkthat this is this is debt that
this has got but then you haveto be alert to a reconciliation
you know where two sentencescould be stuck in it at four in
the morning Yeah, that's whathappens.

(01:06:36):
And no one will ever read thosetwo sentences before they vote
on it.
And he said, right now thingsare so volatile, you can't
assume anything.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:48):
Yeah, but we're seeing– I was down there a few
weeks ago, and I was in acongressional leader's office
talking to one of his chief ofstaffs, just a really, really
great guy, credit union guy.
He serves on the board of acredit union company.
And he just talked about theloss of talent that we're
experiencing right now in D.C.

(01:07:09):
that a lot of the seasonedoperators are retiring because
this change is particularlychaotic.
Well,

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:20):
this Republican Party has nothing in common with
the Republican Party from 10years ago.
Not a thing.
So if you were part of that MittRomney world...
You look around and say, oh,wow, it's totally different.
I've landed on a differentplanet.
And you might say, I'm notcomfortable on this planet, or

(01:07:42):
no one likes me anymore, as thecase may be.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:46):
Yeah, and that can happen.
But just to finish it off withJim, I think if you look at what
he's done, I think Bringing thetwo organizations together, that
was a hell of a task and verycontroversial, but the members
voted and our democracy spoke.

(01:08:07):
Jim got it done.
Jim and the team got it done.
As I said, I think some of theissues that are still on the
table are going to be on thetable forever.
I don't unless we get itenshrined in the Constitution.
And even then, I think thatwe're always going to have to
tell the American people orfight for for that right to be
tax free.

(01:08:27):
I think it's going to keep ushonest to Robert about about
where we are and why we shouldbe.
And I think it gives us a reasonto connect with our
representation.
And I think that's a greatthing.
And I also think that if that'sour biggest fight.
That's one we can win.
We can win this all day long.
So I wish Jim well.

(01:08:48):
We'll see what happens atAmerica's credit unions.
We'll see.
I'm sure that'll be a veryinteresting process to see who
will who will take the mantle.
But I wish him well.
And again, we have otherorganizations out there too,
DCUC, Tony, as we talked a lotabout, and Jason, really making

(01:09:10):
sure that there's someone on thewalls.
And I think that's what I'd beworried about as Jim steps away
into a very well-deservedretirement.
We just have to be extravigilant.
And We should also never beoverdependent on the trade
organization either.
This is not work that we're, andI'm forgetting my verbiage here,

(01:09:32):
that we're contracting out.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:34):
CUNA also has a history of, who was CEO of CUNA
before Nussel?
It was Cheney, who was a creditunion guy who quit to take the
job at schools first.
I guess he realized that hereally was happier working for a
credit union than working for atrade association.

(01:09:55):
They've had a history offlipping between a political
animal and a credit unionperson.
If you're betting money, you'dsay probably they're going to
get a credit union person.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:06):
MIKE GREEN That's an interesting viewpoint.
One of the great, greatstrengths of Nussel was he was
Republican.
He was an elected official.
He understood budgets and thebudget process because he worked
in the White House on that, aswe all know.
So I think they were invaluable.
That was invaluable inside ofbaseball for us.
But he understood as apolitician, too.

(01:10:29):
You know, I look at.
you know, Tony Hernandez'sadvocacy.
And again, he's just, he'stremendous.
He's passionate.
He gets it done.
You know, whoever it is inAmerica's credit unions, you
know, we at DCU, so you lookforward to working with them,
you know, to make sure thatcredit unions are vibrant.
You know, yeah, I think all ofus worry about regulatory
overreach, particularly incredit union land.

(01:10:50):
And, you know, that'll beinteresting, right?
At the NCUA, as things progress,we'll see where that goes.
But make no mistake.
You know, the currentadministration is going to
change world order as well asAmerican order.
And, you know, my job in that isI've got to make sure that

(01:11:11):
Hanscom, its members, and thecredit union, then our wider
credit union family, do wellduring this period and any
other.
So the mission stays the same,Robert, whoever's in the White
House.
The thing that I remind peopleall the time of, and it's not
necessarily a popular thing, isthe people of America did speak,

(01:11:32):
whether you agree or you don'tagree.
President Trump has a veryspecific mission.
You need to find ways tonegotiate with him that get his
mission.
That's how he is, and that'swhat people elected him for.
The consequences, I think, areextraordinarily scary.

(01:11:55):
And it is a sea change in theway that we've dealt with allies
before, for sure.
And so we'll see where it goes.
We'll see where it goes.
But I also think that anypresident also has a pragmatic
side.
And...
You know, I think one of thethings that I've learned through
this whole process is, you know,as an American is we've all

(01:12:18):
seemed to have lost the abilityto listen to the other side and
what scares them and whatmotivates them.
And I think that if we're to bea better nation, you know,
whether you're Democrat orRepublican, you know, we really
need to learn quickly about thatand how to communicate better as
a nation.
If

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:36):
in Ireland, Fianna Fáil and Fianna Gael can be
partners in a coalition.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:42):
Yeah, just for the listeners, that's more extreme.
That's an even bigger extremethan Trump and Biden sharing the
presidency.
And I'm not exaggerating.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:56):
Oh, heavens no.
I mean...
I'm not exaggerating.
It's the long fella versus thebig fella.
I mean, there's a hundred yearsof divisive history here.
It's...

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:09):
Yeah, but I think that's the point.
That's where my optimism iscoming from, Robert, is you can–
Well,

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:17):
they're united against Sinn Féin.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:21):
Well, sometimes it's finding the greater enemy,
right?
Well, I think that's theirgreater enemy, right?
Yeah, sometimes it's findingthat enemy, and that's the thing
with the political system is–You've got to be there, you've
got to be passionate, and you'vegot to be committed.
As I said, regardless, mymission stays the same.

(01:13:45):
We have to find a way to workwith the Trump administration,
whether I have reason to believea strong amount of my members
voted for him.
But whether it was him or Bidenor Harris, there's always a
threat to credit unions.
There's always more legislation,less legislation, tax.
Those issues remain the same,but we've just got to be

(01:14:06):
vigilant.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:07):
before we go think hard about how you can help
support this podcast so we cando more interviews with more
thoughtful leaders in the creditunion world what we're trying to
figure out here in thesepodcasts is what's next for
credit unions what can they doto really really really make a
difference in the financialscene can't all be mega banks

(01:14:31):
can it It's my hope it won't allbe medical banks.
It'll always be a place forcredit unions.
That's what we're discussinghere.
So figure out how you can help.
Get in touch with me.
This is rjmcgarvey at gmail.com.
Robert McGarvey again.
That's rjmcgarvey at gmail.com.
Get in touch.
We'll figure out a way that youcan help.

(01:14:52):
We need your support.
We want your support.
We thank you for your support.
The CU 2.0 Podcast.