August 13, 2025 • 49 mins
When will you retire?
What years of your life should be the ones where you work the longest, hardest hours?
On the show today is Derek Coburn, author of Let's Retire Retirement: How to Enjoy Life to the Fullest—Now and Later, a book that very probably will rock your mind because it challenges key beliefs that most of us share about retirement.
For instance: at what age will you retire?
Probably your answer is 65, that’s the number that jumps off most lips. But Coburn says probably you won’t and he adds the zinger that other ages may well work much better for you.
Like what? How about 75? Or 70?
And fact is more Americans are working longer- indeed the fastest growing age cohort in the workplace is Americans aged 75 and older!
Surveys also say that approaching 25% of Americans age 65 and higher are now working.
And Ciburn believes that number will only increase as many American seniors are today healthier, more active than were Americans of the same age a generation ago.
A bonus: retire later in life and you need far less retirement savings. You’ll hear actual numbers in the show - and it will blow your mind.
As for what years you should work longest and hardest? Coburn argues that it’s when your kids are home and for many that means working less in your thirties and forties.
Is that catastrophic for your retirement savings? No, because you will be working later in life you need less retirement savings. QED.
In the show, mention is made of an app. Death Clock AI. Here’s a link to the Washington Post story about it.
In the show Coburn mentions CU 2.0 founder/CEO Kirk Drake and Resistance Wine. I’ve drunk it, it’s good.
Coburn says he wears an Oura ring. Here’s the link
In the show also there’s mention of Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, a brilliant psychologist who documented the phenomenon he called flow where work is highly focused and we are happiest.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the CU2.0 podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (00:05):
Hi, and welcome to the CU2.0 podcast with big new
ideas about credit unions andconversations about innovative
technology with credit union andfintech leaders.
This podcast is brought to youby Quillo, the real-time loan
syndication network for creditunions, and by your host,
longtime credit union andfinancial technology journalist,
(00:27):
Robert McGarvey.
And now, the CU 2.0 podcast withRobert McGarvey.
SPEAKER_00 (00:35):
When will you retire?
When?
What years of your life shouldbe the ones where you work the
longest, hardest hours?
It's two questions, two bigquestions.
And on the show today is DerekColburn, author of Let's Retire
Retirement, How to Enjoy Life tothe Fullest Now and Later.
(00:56):
It's a book that very probablywill rock your mind because it
challenges key beliefs that mostof us share about retirement.
For instance, at what age willyou retire?
Probably your answer is 65.
That's the number that jumps offmost lips.
But Coburn says, probably youwon't.
He adds to the zinger that otherages may well work much better
(01:18):
for you.
Like what?
How about 75 or 70?
And fact is, more Americans areworking longer.
Indeed, the fastest growing agecohort in the workplace is
Americans age 75 and older.
Another fact is the fullretirement age for Social
Security now is no longer 65.
In fact, it's 67.
(01:39):
Surveys also say thatapproaching 25% of Americans age
65 and higher are now working.
And Coburn believes that numberwill only increase as many
American seniors are todayhealthier, more active than were
Americans of the same age ageneration ago.
A bonus, retire later in lifeand you will need far less
retirement savings.
(02:00):
You'll hear actual numbers inthe show, and the numbers will
blow your mind.
As for what years you shouldwork longest and hardest, well,
Colburn argues that it's whenyour kids are at home.
For many, that means workingless in your 30s and 40s.
Is that catastrophic for yourretirement savings?
No, because you will be workinglater in life.
(02:21):
You'll need less retirementsavings.
QED.
In the show, Mention is made ofan app, Death Clock AI.
In the show notes, there's alink to the Washington Post
story about it.
In the show, Colburn mentionsCU2.0 founder and CEO Kirk Drake
and Resistance Wine.
There's a link to ResistanceWine in the show notes.
(02:43):
I've drunk it.
It's good.
Colburn says he wears an auraring.
There's a link in the shownotes.
In the show also, there'smention of Mihaly
Csikszentmihalyi, a brilliantpsychologist who documented the
phenomenon he called flow, wherework is highly focused and we
are happiest.
We do our best work in flow.
(03:03):
It's magical.
state listen up i want to talkabout in the book you have two
intertwined unusual ideasrevolutionary ideas if you will
SPEAKER_03 (03:19):
okay thanks
SPEAKER_00 (03:21):
number one you're working the hardest and longest
in the years of your life whenyou shouldn't be that's very
very it's like huh what Andnumber two, you think you're
going to retire at 65, butprobably you won't.
And they're intertwined, ofcourse.
And just out of curiosity, Ilooked this morning, what's the
(03:43):
full retirement age in SocialSecurity now?
67.
It's not 65 anymore.
And it's creeping up.
And I heard you say on that showthat Denmark has just raised its
retirement age to 75.
I suspect we'll do similar toget the social security accounts
(04:03):
to balance.
SPEAKER_03 (04:04):
And I think I mean, I think it's the fair thing to
do.
Like, I try not to get toopolitical.
Right.
But I mean, the majority ofpeople that put money into
Social Security get more out ofit than they put in.
And I think just in general,this idea that, like, I'm going
to sit around and do nothing for25 or 30 years, not contribute
at all and get a paycheck forit.
You know, I think it's justselfish.
(04:27):
And I also don't think that it'sgoing to make those people as
happy as they would be if theywere instead trying to find ways
that they could contribute.
in a meaningful way.
And it doesn't have to be whatthey're doing now.
It could be doing somethingdifferent.
Um, but I, I don't think, Ithink we're seeing that the data
shows that for a lot of peoplesitting on their front porch,
drinking lemonade for 30 yearsstraight, it's not, you know,
(04:48):
not unlocking extended periodsof bliss for them.
SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
No, I just, the other day I talked with a guy
who was telling me taking anUber with, and the driver was a
retired oil industry executive.
who certainly had made a lot ofmoney.
Oil industry pays very well.
And he was doing it not for themoney, but just to get out and
about and talk with people.
(05:16):
It's like, so people are doingstrange things.
Yeah.
Because how many people, I knowone guy, one guy who said, geez,
I can't wait until I retire andI'll play golf every day.
He plays golf every day.
He likes golf.
He still likes golf.
Everybody else who's done thatafter about a week, they say,
(05:37):
this is boring.
I
SPEAKER_03 (05:40):
can make an argument too, man, that just even though
it's what's normal, right?
It's the idea of putting offyour health and your key
relationships and vacations andhaving just a more enjoyable
experience in our human suits inthe name of working really hard
to save a lot of money by acertain age is a strange way to
(06:00):
live too.
UNKNOWN (06:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (06:03):
It's just become more commonplace.
It's just more acceptable thatpeople will do it.
SPEAKER_00 (06:09):
Well, yes.
And the point you make is thatmost of us are programmed to
zero in on this target.
Oh, I will retire at 65.
And yet a lot of us don't.
I understand why that targetexists.
And it's not bad to have atarget, but we all have the same
target.
And that doesn't make a heck ofa lot of sense.
(06:30):
And I'll tell you one thingthat's true.
I have a number of friends whoare college professors,
university professors.
Go back 20 years ago, theretirement age in most
departments, unofficial, youweren't forced to with 65.
Most of them now are hanging onuntil they're 75.
It's just crept up on people.
SPEAKER_03 (06:51):
Can work harder and make more money if they want to,
or they can also dial it back ifthey want to.
What is the alignment there?
SPEAKER_00 (06:59):
Well, it's a mix.
And I'd say the fintechexecutives certainly have some
significant control over theirschedule.
SPEAKER_01 (07:06):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (07:07):
The credit union executive might have less
control over their schedule.
But the credit union executives,particularly the senior ones,
have an interesting problemwhere bigger credit unions, a
very common retirement tool is aSERP, a Supplemental Executive
Retirement Plan.
which is almost always gearedfor retiring at 65.
(07:32):
And if you want to work longer,well, this doesn't work in terms
of SERP.
If you want to retire earlier,no, can't do it, man.
And you'll get that SERP in manycases when you're 45.
So there are a lot of peoplesitting there with SERPs and,
you know, if they hear thisshow, their heads will explode.
Yep.
(07:53):
Why in your book do you say thatpeople are working the longest
and hardest in the wrong decadesof their lives?
SPEAKER_03 (08:00):
Well, I mean, look, I think they are.
I mean, the way that I wouldeven personalize it for me and
for other people is that we'reworking.
Society expects us to work ourhardest and have our most
productive earning years at atime when our kids probably need
us and want us the most.
You know, for me, I have a 15and a 12 year old and they're
going to be out of the house inthree and five years
(08:22):
respectively.
And so the way that I live mylife is sort of a microcosm of
what I'm talking about inregards to retirement, where I'm
not pedal to the metal rightnow.
I'm very intentionally...
taking on a lighter schedule sothat I can spend a couple hours
every single day with each of myboys.
And that is sort of sponsoredby, that's the language I like
(08:44):
using.
It's almost like somebody'swriting a check to me.
It's sponsored by me knowingthat when my youngest is out of
the house in five years, thatI'm going to be taking on more
work, looking to contribute morevalue and likely be earning even
more money than I am right now.
And so for me, that's when Iwill look to ramp up the
(09:04):
speaking opportunity.
opportunities when I'll look toramp up maybe the coaching and
the consulting.
But for now, you know, my kidswant to hang out with me.
And that's not what you hearfrom a lot of 15 and 12 year
olds.
And I think it's because of theamount of time that I invest and
how I prioritize my relationshipwith them.
A
SPEAKER_00 (09:22):
lot of executives, and I'm sure you've talked with
them, have at best a passingrelationship with their
adolescent children.
They rarely do anything with thekids.
Well, that's pretty normal.
In five years, how old will yoube?
I'll
SPEAKER_03 (09:40):
be 53.
I'm 48 now.
SPEAKER_00 (09:42):
So at 53, you
SPEAKER_03 (09:47):
think you're going to have the energy to work much
harder.
(10:12):
plan before, that means youdon't have to save as much right
now, which means you have moremoney and more time that you get
to spend on the people andthings that are most important
to you right now.
And a big, you know, a big partof, you know, that that menu is
going to be things like selfcare, like getting better sleep
and working out more and eatingbetter.
And I think that in society, weput such an emphasis on the long
(10:35):
term benefits, you should sleepwell, you should work out
because of how great you'regoing to feel or how much better
you're going to feel 20 yearsfrom now compared to if you
don't.
But we don't spend enough timetalking about how much better
we're going to feel 20 hoursfrom now if we prioritize these
things.
And so for me, if I'm making thetime to go to the gym now
because I know I'm going to beworking longer and I don't have
(10:56):
to save as much, unlike theperson who feels like they're
running up against the clock andthey don't have time to work out
as much, they don't have time tosleep as much because they need
to save.
They need to have a certainnumber by a certain age in order
to retire.
Because I get to do thesethings, I'm just going to have
more energy now.
And I'm going to continue tohave more energy because having
it now is going to be easier tomaintain, I think, 5, 10, 20
(11:21):
years from now.
SPEAKER_00 (11:23):
Take me through the math, which is really
compelling.
How much you have to save?
You have a couple of cases inyour book.
How much you have to save ifyou're going to retire at 65,
70, and 75?
And the numbers just explode.
You go, wow.
SPEAKER_03 (11:40):
Yeah, it's really mind-blowing for someone that
hasn't done the math, and that'smost people.
So the way that I highlight theexample, the comparison, if you
will, is through a story I sharecalled A Tale of Two Tonys.
And Tony is a 45-year-oldexecutive who's making$150,000 a
year, and he has$150,000 savedup in retirement accounts.
(12:01):
And he meets with his financialadvisor, tells the financial
advisor that he's going toretire at 65 because that's the
age everyone else is picking,and the financial advisor agrees
that that's the age thateveryone else is picking.
And the advisor tells him thatin order to make this happen,
he's going to have to save about$2,400 a month adjusted for
inflation every single month forthe next 20 years in order to
(12:22):
stop working.
And so if you do the quick math,$2,400 a month spread over a
year is close to$30,000, whichis almost 20% of what he's
making, which is a non-starterfor most people.
I mean, look, it means thatyou're probably...
saving more than you're actuallyspending right now when you back
out taxes.
And so Tony begins to feeldefeated.
(12:43):
He feels like he can't go on thevacations that he wants to go
on.
He needs to skip the familydinners.
He needs to be at the officelonger and eat more fast food.
And he ends up getting there,but there's a big cost to that.
And the example that I give inthe book is this alternate
reality, this sliding doorsexample from the movie Sliding
(13:05):
Doors where it's a it's a moviewith Gwyneth Paltrow where her
her future hinges on whether ornot she catches this train or
not and she doesn't really knowthe importance or the
significance of it but I haveTony's wife say to him in this
alternate reality well why doyou want to retire at 65 you
know you you sort of like whatyou do and you like the people
you do it with and even if youdon't do that you've got all
(13:27):
these other interests and I justcan't imagine that you're ever
going to sit around and not doanything and he says you know
what you're right so he callsthe financial advisor and he
says you know, we just had thismeeting where I told you I want
to retire at 65.
What if we make it 75?
So the financial advisor comesback to him and he tells him
this second example is theamount that he needs to save
(13:47):
goes down from$2,400 a month to$110 per month.
It goes down by 96%.
And even if, you know, Tonywould have said, I'll work until
I'm 70 instead of 75.
The number goes down to$600.
It's a 75% reduction in theamount that he has to save by
just recognizing and agreeing towork an extra five years longer.
(14:11):
And the reason for this is I'vegot Tony dying at 95 in both
examples.
In the first example, he has 10less years of working, 10 less
years of saving and having thatmoney compound.
And then he needs an amount ofmoney that's going to last for
30 years from 65 to 95.
In the second example, he's 10extra years of working, 10 extra
(14:33):
years of letting his money andhis investments grow.
And then he only needs an amountof money that will last for 20
years instead of 30 years.
We've all seen the articles.
We've all seen how people havesaid to us, oh, you should save
more when you're 23 years oldand take advantage of
compounding interest.
And then we all feel sort ofdumb because we didn't do it.
Or even if we did do it, we'remaking a lot less in all
(14:54):
likelihood when we were 23 thanwe are now.
But really, no one's talkingabout how we can achieve the
same type of results and get thesame types of benefits by
letting that money just sit foran extra five or 10 years longer
on the back end.
And that's the math that I'mreally trying to help a lot of
people understand.
SPEAKER_00 (15:10):
Do they understand it when you go over it that way?
SPEAKER_03 (15:13):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:14):
I mean, the numbers seem to be compelling.
You can't argue with math.
And the math is like it goesfrom 2400 to a restaurant, a
cheap restaurant meal.
SPEAKER_03 (15:26):
It's crazy, right?
UNKNOWN (15:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (15:29):
My book has only been out now for two weeks and
I've already received four orfive messages from people,
including one from a documentaryproducer.
This guy does documentaries onNetflix and he had been toying
with a book deal and he messagedme and he said, look, I've never
bought a finance book before.
And I know that your book's nota finance book, but I thought it
(15:51):
was a finance book when I boughtit.
And I went from feeling like Ididn't have the time to justify
writing a book to you making mefeel like I did.
You calmed my anxiety.
You made me realize that I havea lot more time than I thought I
had.
And I just finished my outlineand I'm talking with publishers
right now about taking the nextstep forward.
(16:13):
And so that's obviously reallygratifying for me to hear.
And I think and I hope and Iexpect that there are going to
be a lot more stories like thatgoing forward.
SPEAKER_00 (16:21):
And even if You have to leave your present job at 65,
which is the case in some cases.
In credit union land, anexecutive can always get a job
in another credit union ifyou're an experienced executive.
SPEAKER_03 (16:41):
Are most credit unions having people take a
forced retirement at 65?
SPEAKER_00 (16:46):
That's often built into the CERP plan.
SPEAKER_03 (16:49):
Yeah.
I tell this with attorneys also.
Well, I have a sneaky suspicionand I'm already starting to see
it.
And that is because theworkforce coming up behind the
people that are going to beretiring over the next 10 years
is a smaller number than what itis now.
I think that a lot of thecompanies that currently have
these mandatory retirements aregoing to start getting a little
(17:11):
bit more flexible with them,especially if you're someone
that has the skills, theknowledge, the experience, and
you want to continue to do it.
I think that there's going to bea number of companies, whether
credit unions or not, that aregoing to be happy to have you.
And if you're good at what youdo, you're going to be able to
do it on your terms.
You're going to see a lot ofarrangements with people that
(17:33):
are going to say, look, I don'twant to work summers or I'll
work Monday to Thursday and I'llbe available for these five
hours every single day for you,but I don't want you calling me
or talking to me after that.
I don't want to be bothered onweekends.
I want to have a few months off.
And I think whatever combinationworks for you, I think that
(17:56):
companies are going to be Now,how do you
SPEAKER_00 (18:08):
talk with people about how they might estimate
their life expectancy?
SPEAKER_03 (18:15):
Well, you know, this is the first year in a long time
that life expectancy has gonedown.
But I think that you need toreally take a closer look at the
stats and see how they apply toyou.
So they're going down because alot of people are dying when
they're younger.
The COVID had a big impact onthat for some people.
(18:38):
Life expectancy, it's funny,when retirement was really first
created, this was in 18 And theywere setting up the first social
plan for older workers as a wayto help them bridge the gap
between their working years andwhen they would pass away.
And they picked 65 as the age in1889 for when people would start
(19:01):
receiving these benefits.
because you guessed it, that wasthe age that people were
expected to live until.
So 65 was, hey, we'll startgiving you money at 65 because
we know most of you are gonna bedead by then.
They increased it to 70 a fewyears later, but FDR decided in
1935 with the Social SecurityPlan, Social Security Act and
(19:23):
getting that set up that 65 wasthe right number and life
expectancy at that time wasabout 71.
And what's interesting is goingback to around that time and
shortly thereafter, If you weregoing to retire, you would be
getting a third of your incomefrom Social Security.
You'd be getting a third of yourincome from a pension plan or a
SERP or something like that.
And you only had to come up witha third of your remaining need.
(19:46):
And it only had to last forabout six or seven years in all
likelihood because of lifeexpectancy.
So now life expectancy in theaggregate is pushing 80.
But if you make it to 65, thenyou're looking at like 86 for
men and 88 for women.
And I think I think that sort oflike furthering the gap, and I'm
a big fan of this, like I hintedat it earlier, take maybe some
(20:10):
of the money that you now, afterhearing the Tony example, to
where now you don't feel likeyou have to save as much and you
have a little bit more that youcan spend, invest that
proactively into your health.
Make sure that you're exercisingmore.
Make sure that you're sleepingbetter.
And I think that people thathave a little bit of money to
throw at their health are goingto probably be able to live
(20:30):
until 95, 100 years old withoutmuch trouble and without really
like a dramatic dip in terms oftheir quality of life.
When I say lived in 95 or 100,I'm not talking like you've got
these 10 to 15 miserable yearswhere you're old and decrepit
and you're extending that.
I'm talking about improving thequality of your health span, not
(20:51):
just your lifespan.
SPEAKER_00 (20:54):
And if listeners want to estimate how long to
live, I can recommend an appcalled Death Clock AI.
SPEAKER_01 (21:01):
Oh,
SPEAKER_00 (21:02):
great.
It's free.
It asks you a bunch of questionswithin five minutes or so.
It comes back with, it tells youthe exact day you're going to
die.
It's just a year.
SPEAKER_03 (21:11):
And what sort of inputs or variables does that
have?
SPEAKER_00 (21:15):
Oh, it asks you predictable questions about your
health.
SPEAKER_03 (21:20):
Okay, got it.
Cool.
SPEAKER_00 (21:21):
A little bit about family history.
I think many people will tellyou the best indicator of your
life expectancy is if you'remale, it's your father's.
How old was your father when hedied?
How old was your grandfatherwhen he died?
If you're a woman, it's usuallythe maternal side.
It asks that kind of stuff.
(21:42):
It got a really nice write-up inthe New York Times or the
Washington Post, which is why Idownloaded it.
Well,
SPEAKER_03 (21:48):
I'll tell you, you know, my father, my father got
dementia when he was 63 and hepassed away at 71.
And I, you know, rightly so, I'ma little terrified about that
for myself, but also him gettingdementia was the catalyst for
me.
Like, like there's, there's alot of what I talk about in this
(22:08):
book and why living for themoment and living for right now
sort of stems from that, butalso like for me to really kind
of dig into my health.
And so, you know, I like, Like,while genetics could play a
factor, I'm throwing good moneyand good resources at a lot of
the preventative stuff to, youknow, like my father, for
(22:30):
example, like had, you know, acertain gene where he couldn't,
he couldn't like break downtoxins in his body where, and I
don't have that gene, but myfather didn't know he had that
gene.
And that really accelerated hiscondition, if you will.
And so, you know, I am laterthis week, I'm actually There's
a company called Preneuvo, andthey do whole body MRI scans.
(22:54):
And so this is not covered byinsurance.
And the cost is gone.
It's expensive, but it's gonedown dramatically over the last
couple of years.
They've really been able toscale this.
When it first came out, it wasabout$4,000, and now it's about
$2,000.
But the quick overview here isthat I'm getting a full body
(23:15):
brain limb MRI where they'regoing to detect anything that
might be off with me physicallyor otherwise.
It's not covered by insurance,but for me, it's$2,000 just to
check a box to make sure thatthere's nothing that's brewing
that would catch me off guard orthrow me off by surprise.
SPEAKER_00 (23:39):
One of the wealthiest people I've known,
retired at 50, is working infinancial services in manhattan
made a lot of money he retiredat 50 because his father had
died at 51.
and uh and he figured he didn'thave long to live so he wound up
(23:59):
living until he was about 72.
he really had made a lot ofmoney so he was doing fine uh
and through through through therest of his life and he got very
active in didn't go back to workbut he got very active uh Served
on a lot of boards of nonprofitsof organizations that he
approved of.
(24:20):
Very involved in the CatholicChurch.
Very involved in the college hewent to.
And so a very busy guy.
And mainly doing good stuff.
But it was all volitional.
He didn't feel he had to do anyof it.
He did what he chose to do.
And had a great life.
That's great.
So sometimes you can actuallyretire early if you plan
(24:41):
accordingly.
I think he worked like a doguntil he was 50.
SPEAKER_03 (24:47):
Yeah.
And for me, again, it's justlike being present for my kids,
being able to prioritize therelationship that I have with my
wife and my friends and myhealth and just really leaning
into all of it.
I guess I could.
I mean, look, I had a wealthmanagement practice that I was
(25:09):
able to sell to a private equitycompany.
I had an exit and I've got somecash and I probably don't have
enough cash to never have towork again, but I've got enough
cash.
that I can coast for a littlebit here.
And for me, I think I see peoplethat have won the game that most
people are playing, this moneygame, and they've got the
(25:29):
possessions and the cars or thejets or the clothes or the beach
homes.
And I think that all of thosethings can be great.
And I'm not opposed to them.
And I even think that they canbe very inspiring for the right
people at the right time.
But I think that for me, whereI'm at now is I think that
flexibility with my time andfreedom with my time is the
(25:55):
flex.
It's the thing.
Wealth for me is I get to pickmy kids up from school every
single day.
I have a 15-year-old, and wehave a gym in our house, and we
work out together.
three to four times a weektogether for an hour at a time.
And 45 of those 60 minutes, he'snot saying much to me.
(26:17):
But the other 10 to 15 minutes,I'm there, and we're having good
conversations, and we're talkingabout music, and we're talking
about sports.
And look, I don't really know awhole lot of– dads with 15 year
olds who, who can say the samethat, that, that I can say in
terms of like, I think my kidactually enjoys spending time
(26:38):
with me and same with my youngerones.
So I think, look, if you can, ifyou can have it all great, you
know what I mean?
Like, I think that's incredible.
I think for most people in orderto, in order to save a certain
amount of money to be able tostop at 65 and have your money
last for 30 years, because Ithink 95 is the age you don't
want to, you don't want to likego, you don't want to estimate
(26:58):
passing away your lifeexpectancy at like 82 and then
you're running out of money at82 and you're still kind of
kicking and going strong.
So I think you need to have itin the 90, 95 range at a minimum
for most people.
But yeah, I just, you know, Ithink a lot of people are just
making sacrifices.
They're sacrificing theirhealth, they're sacrificing
(27:19):
their happiness, they'resacrificing their key
relationships in the name ofsaving a certain amount of money
by a certain age to be able toexperience all these things that
they're sacrificing when theyget there.
And I think for a lot of people,this idea, this retirement, what
they arrive to is not what theywere sold.
It's not what they thought itwas going to be.
(27:40):
And you've got a bigunretirement movement right now.
Up to about 30% of people thathave retired are going back to
work.
And it's not because they needthe money.
It's because they missed theconnection.
They missed the contribution.
They missed being able to have apurpose bigger than themselves.
SPEAKER_00 (27:58):
How do you...
suggest to a person that theyget started on this?
In other words, person hearsthis, they read your book, they
say, geez, it soundsinteresting.
Maybe this would work for me.
Then what?
When you
SPEAKER_03 (28:13):
say
SPEAKER_00 (28:14):
started on this,
SPEAKER_03 (28:14):
what do you mean
SPEAKER_00 (28:15):
by that?
Begin to implement what you'retalking about.
Begin to implement this plan.
SPEAKER_03 (28:21):
So look, I think what I've done, there are other
books, including mine, where wetalk about We remind our
readers, we remind the audiencethat they're gonna really miss
Their kids, they're going toreally regret not having spent
(28:41):
more time with them whilethey're in the house.
If they don't do it, they'regoing to regret neglecting their
relationship with theirsignificant other.
They're going to regret likeeverybody, their health,
everybody understands that theyshould be doing this more, but,
but no one has reallyeffectively that I've seen
addressed the big problem.
elephant in the room, which ishow can I afford to do this?
(29:04):
I know I should be home more.
I would like to be home more.
I would like to be leaning intovacations and all of these
things, but I've got bills topay and I have to save a certain
amount so I can stop doing thisfor the rest of my life.
What I have hopefully done for alot of people reading this via
the two Tonys example and otherexamples in the book is I've
(29:27):
removed money as the barrier.
I've said I've now Now allowsyou to take money out of the
equation.
Now you have more money and moretime than you previously thought
you had.
Now, like the first thing thatI'm giving you is a little bit
of space.
I'm giving you a little bit ofspace.
I'm letting you catch yourbreath.
I'm letting you have a littlebit less stress so that now you
(29:49):
can see where should I beinvesting more of my time or
more of my money.
more of this time and more ofthis money that I have that I
didn't think I had prior tohearing what you just shared
with me.
SPEAKER_00 (30:03):
And I do think that many companies, this wouldn't be
true for a CEO, but manycompanies would say to a senior
executive, oh, you want toreduce your hours?
That would be okay.
Let's see how we could do that.
But then some complications kickin.
So, oh, geez, you're going tolose your health plan or
(30:23):
whatever.
Yep.
But those are fixable problems.
SPEAKER_03 (30:30):
Yeah, I think so, because you can still get health
insurance up to 30 hours a week,I think, right?
SPEAKER_00 (30:34):
Something like that.
Even if with Obamacare, you canstill get it anyway in almost
all states.
To
SPEAKER_03 (30:45):
kind of add to your question about where to start, I
have a belief, and it's what'shappened with me.
It's how this book was born.
My belief is that the very bestperson for any of us to be
getting advice from, for any oneperson to be getting advice
from, is...
the highest and best version ofthemselves.
(31:08):
So right now, I think themajority of people are carrying
just a lot of stress, a lot ofanxiety.
They're sleep deprived.
They have brain fog.
They're caught up in what'sgoing on in the geopolitical
climate.
And now it's like, okay, I'vegot some work issues or some
money issues or some healthissues.
(31:28):
And how should I spend my time?
And I think that most people arejust so far removed moved from
the highest and best version ofthemselves that they're almost
like not qualified to be makingthese big picture decisions at
this point.
And so I think for a lot ofpeople, What I would recommend
(31:49):
is, especially if you're workingreally hard now and you feel
like you're making sacrifices inthe name of being able to retire
and stop at a certain point intime, to just take a step back
and maybe for the next couple ofweeks, you just really try to
prioritize sleeping well, eatingwell, and allow this version of
(32:11):
yourself that's a little bitmore well-rested, that has a
little bit more energy to showup and And then think about,
okay, what is my next best move?
Because for me, I wear a devicecalled an Oura Ring.
And it tracks your sleep andyour steps and your heart rate
(32:32):
and all of this.
There's other brands.
There's a Whoop bracelet.
There's an Apple Watch.
There's a lot of companies thatdo this.
And I think it's a reallyimportant thing for most people
to be looking to get their datato access data.
what they're doing and what theycould potentially do to improve
it.
And so for me, I've had it forseven years.
And the first four years I hadit, you would get a sleep score.
(32:54):
You get a sleep score everysingle night.
And my sleep score was neverhigher than a 70.
Wow.
Wow.
Yeah, it was just really...
But if you would have asked me,are you sleeping well?
I would have said, yeah, I feelfine.
I feel good.
But I didn't know.
I didn't know...
what it would be like toactually sleep really, really
(33:16):
well.
And I said, I'm going to makethis a goal for myself.
I want to wake up in the morningand I want to see if I can get
to a place where I feel amazing.
And so long story short, I wentfrom a 68 out of 100 to a 77 to
an 82.
And now on most nights, my sleepscore and the corresponding way
(33:36):
I feel when I wake up is betweenan 85 and a 95.
And the way that I feel now mostmornings when I wake up, I
didn't know that feeling was onthe menu a couple of years ago.
And I bring this up for a coupleof reasons.
One is when I sleep well, I makebetter choices at 9 a.m.
And those better choices at 9a.m.
(33:56):
lead to better choices at 11a.m.
And I'm more likely to eatsomething that's good for me for
lunch.
I'm more likely to not skip theworkout.
I'm more likely to be more calmand more patient with my kids
and my wife and therelationships that I have if
I've slept well.
And so for me, that's what Ireally want to prioritize and
(34:17):
focus on.
But but the other thing is Ijust really want the sleep
component here to, to, um,highlight how I, I now I'm like
a different person showing upthan the person that I was a few
years ago, uh, with the way thatI choose to spend my time, the
way that I choose to lead mylife.
SPEAKER_00 (34:37):
I personally wear a Fitbit, which I got, I've had
one device or another for 15years.
And, uh, And I got it to do stepcounting.
And then one day I noticed that,hey, it gives me this sleep
score.
And I've become addicted to mysleep score, which often is over
(34:59):
80, although I've never gotten a90, I have to admit.
So it's good data.
It's useful data.
And it correlates with how Ifeel and how energetic I am,
too.
So you see, well, there'ssomething to this sleep score
thing.
SPEAKER_03 (35:15):
There's a lot of different One thing that I share
(35:46):
with a lot of people thatthey're like, oh, yeah, I'm
eating 30 minutes before bed andthey stop doing that and their
sleep improves dramatically.
And then the other big one isusing mouth tape or a chin strap
to where you are reminding yourbody that it's better for it to
breathe in and out through itsnose and not the mouth.
SPEAKER_00 (36:08):
As you say these things, I remember.
In movies and TVs from the 50s,people would have a nightcap
just before they went to bed,some kind of alcoholic drink.
And I absolutely agree with you.
Alcohol messes my sleep scoredramatically.
SPEAKER_03 (36:25):
And I will tell you, you know, I might be...
not doing it justice.
I might be oversimplifying ithere, but for me, because I,
look, I had a glass or two ofwine almost every single night
for 20 years.
And it was just a way to unwindand a way for me to just like
have a ritual with my wife.
It was nice.
But I think for me, unlockingthis new feeling when I wake up
(36:50):
in the morning.
And just, I'm telling you, ifyou don't wake up in the morning
and feel absolutely incredible,then it's worth pursuing that
feeling.
And for me, that feeling feelsbetter than the feeling I get
from having a buzz after havinga glass or two of wine.
So it becomes less aboutwillpower for me and more just
(37:14):
like my body, my mind, justknowing like why...
Why are you going to have aglass of wine tonight?
Because if you do that, you'regoing to ruin that feeling that
you're going to have tomorrowmorning.
And you like that feeling waymore than you like the feeling
that you're going to get fromhaving this glass of wine.
SPEAKER_00 (37:27):
Now, why do you tell people, and I think you do this,
that they need to have more funin their lives?
SPEAKER_03 (37:36):
Because I just don't think that people are really...
prioritizing fun.
I go as far as to suggest that Ibelieve that we're in the midst
of a fun recession right now.
I think 99% of adults, based onmy informal survey and seeing
some other data out there, arenot even coming close to having
(37:56):
an appropriate amount of fun ona People for 5, 10, 15 years,
you know, when what do you dofor fun?
And, you know, most people, theysort of look at me and they
pause and they have to think andthey get back to me with
something like we went out todinner with this other couple a
month and a half ago and wetalked about our kids or our job
(38:17):
or like, who knows?
Right.
But but like I like I just thinkthat.
People think that the world isgoing crazy right now and people
are stressed and people have allthese concerns.
what if our bodies, our minds,our souls are making things
(38:40):
harder for us when we're atwork, when we're doing the work,
when we're trying to improve inother areas of my life, because
we're never showing them a goodtime.
We're never letting ourselvesexperience the bliss that we
felt when we were kids.
Again, my kids, they wake upmost days.
And it's like, what am I doingfor fun today?
(39:02):
How am I going to have fun?
How much fun can I have?
Who can I have fun with?
And at some point, it just wentaway for a lot of people.
And I understand that this mightbe triggering.
And my only reason for bringingit up is that I just want people
to just enjoy themselves in thislife, maybe more than what
they're currently doing rightnow.
(39:22):
And I've got suggestions forwhat I think can be like lot of
fun and what people should maybeconsider doing um but yeah so i
don't know if you if you havedifferent views or different
experiences but but for me ijust it just i just see so many
people that have just like havejust said like yeah i they have
(39:43):
a really good reason for whythey can't and aren't having
more fun on a regular basis
SPEAKER_00 (39:48):
and as as you're talking i'm thinking Fun is
where you find it, too.
So I was asking myself, when didI last have fun?
Well, my answer is last night.
I helped feed 400 people at asoup kitchen.
And it felt fun, rewarding, alittle disturbing.
(40:11):
But to see such misery, becauseit's Phoenix in the summer and
these are miserable people.
SPEAKER_03 (40:17):
Look, I think that there are– I talk about
charitable giving also and why Ithink that's really important
and why we should be doing moreof that.
And I do, though, want to just–respond to that, to your fun
last night, which A, I thinkthat's amazing.
(40:40):
B, I tell a story in the bookabout a friend of mine who, when
I'm sharing this idea of a funrecession with her, she's like,
yeah, I've been really trying toincorporate more fun into my
work.
And I'm like, that's great.
And that's not what I'm talkingabout.
I do think that we can find funin other areas of our life, but
I also think that we should beleaning into trying to have fun
(41:01):
for the There's a term calledcollective effervescence.
Collective effervescence hasbeen known to be the conditions
needed for our bodies toexperience the most bliss that
they can experience at any giventime.
And the two conditions requiredfor this are, one, being in a
(41:22):
flow state, forgetting abouttime, forgetting about where you
are, and two, having a shared orpooled or collective energy that
is piggybacking off of Everyonewho is there.
So for that reason, I'msuggesting that live music and
stand up comedy are the two bestways that we can access fun as
human beings.
(41:42):
So this is not to say that Idon't want you to keep
volunteering.
And serving other people.
And certainly, I don't want youto not continue to enjoy that.
Keep doing that.
And also, let's sprinkle in somefun just for the sake of having
fun where we're not checkingother boxes.
We're not doing it for a certainreason.
We're just doing it because itjust fills up our heart and our
(42:04):
soul.
And we just love being there.
And that's the whole reason whywe're doing it.
SPEAKER_00 (42:08):
Hear this.
First guy who's mentioned MihalyCsikszentmihalyi to me in a long
time.
I interviewed him at least adozen times when Flo was a
really hot book, hot topic.
Great guy.
And you can go into Flo,according to him, doing almost
(42:29):
anything.
SPEAKER_02 (42:30):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (42:31):
Bowling, sure.
Why not?
It's working, whatever.
Soup Kitchen, was I in Flo?
No, I wasn't.
I have to admit.
SPEAKER_03 (42:41):
Again, I'm not knocking it, man.
I think that's
SPEAKER_00 (42:43):
amazing.
No, no, no.
I hear you.
I hear you.
Now, you go to an astonishingnumber of live music events.
What was the number?
SPEAKER_03 (42:53):
Oh, man.
I went to over 25 last year.
I went to one last night whereI'm talking to you the day after
Father's Day here.
And I had my boys go to a bandthat I love as my Father's Day
presence.
And, yeah, I mean, I've seenPearl Jam live.
Something like 48 times.
(43:13):
I've got some other bands that Ilove quite a bit.
You know, my wife and I lastyear went to, while the kids
were at sleepaway camp for a fewyears, we went and saw Taylor
Swift in Amsterdam and Pearl Jamin Barcelona.
So we did a nice...
six-day European vacation, saw acouple of music shows.
But look, I don't want anybodyto feel like they need to do
(43:35):
anything that elaborate.
If somebody's listening to thisand they feel like that, yeah,
maybe I've been letting the funin my life slip a little bit and
I should get it back, let'sstart small.
If you haven't been to the gymin four or five years, I
wouldn't recommend you sign upfor a half marathon next
weekend.
I would recommend that you justdip your toe in and start
(43:56):
getting the energy and thephysicality back into your life.
And so, like, are there any, youknow, fun...
restaurants or bars in yourhometown that have cover bands
or are there stand up comedyjoints?
And and that would probably be agood place, I think, for a lot
(44:17):
of people to start.
Like I know, you know, KirkDrake has like, you know, his
winery and he brings bands inand there's just in the
summertime.
There's just so many places.
I don't think that it needs tobe anything over the top.
I would just encourage people toexplore and look into maybe
there are, you know, justdifferent ways for them to find
great music, great comedy.
(44:38):
Look, sports is something thatsome people ask about, like
sports.
What about sports?
It sounds like sports could beon that list.
And certainly sports can capturesome of what I'm talking about.
But the other problem withsports is that there's a 50%
chance that you're not going tobe happy at the end of a
sporting event if your teamloses, right?
So I've never gone to a PearlJam concert and had the lead
(45:01):
guitarist strike out four timesand make an error in the field,
right?
So, so there's just, um, uh,I'm, I'm really setting myself
up to, to not have to lose inmost likely scenario, uh, with,
uh, with a concert or a standupcomedian.
SPEAKER_00 (45:19):
Well, I, I, a year ago, I took a bunch of my
relatives from New Jersey.
We're visiting me in Phoenix andthe Yankees happened to be
playing the Diamondbacks.
I bought tickets.
And I had a really good time,but I didn't care which team
won.
SPEAKER_03 (45:34):
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's great.
SPEAKER_00 (45:36):
My relatives did.
And the Yankees happened to win.
They were happy.
But I was indifferent.
I was just enjoying the wholething.
It was a good game, too.
Aaron Judge hit a home run.
It was wonderful.
SPEAKER_03 (45:47):
Oh, that's amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (45:49):
It
SPEAKER_03 (45:49):
doesn't always have to be that.
But I think that also in orderto experience the peak, peak,
peak bliss– that it might haveto be like a team that you're
invested in and them winninglike the Super Bowl or the World
Series or something like that.
Because when I talk about thiscollective effervescence and I'm
talking about this sharedenergy, you go to see a
(46:12):
musician.
It can be any musician.
It can be big or small, arena,whatever you want to call it.
But they're playing a song thathas a couple of lyrics in it
that you have– sung at the topof your lungs while you're
driving, uh, you know, a dozentimes and there's 5,000 other
(46:32):
people there that have had thesame experience.
And then you're all singing thattogether at once.
It is just, uh, it just producesa feeling in your body.
That's just really hard todescribe.
That's really, I think, hard to,hard to obtain, you know, um,
you know, if you are, uh, youknow, doing, doing other things.
So I Look, I'm not here to judgeanybody's type of fun.
(46:55):
I'm here for the people thatneed it and are open to it, just
here to nudge them a little bitand give them permission to
maybe allow themselves to have alittle bit more enjoyment and a
little bit more fun in theirlives.
SPEAKER_00 (47:07):
I think I got what I wanted.
This has been good.
Anything you want to say thatyou were dying to say that I
didn't ask you about?
SPEAKER_03 (47:14):
I would just say that I think what I'm most proud
of, I think, with this bookis...
I wrote a book that just has alot of information in it that is
just way more than I could evercover in a 45- or 60-minute
conversation with somebody.
And so even though we touched ona number of key points, and I
(47:39):
think you did a really, reallygreat job of preparing and
asking me some really– wonderfulquestions.
I've loved our conversation.
There's still just a lot that wedidn't even bring up that I
think could also be helpful topeople.
And so right now, I don't reallyhave anything to sell.
I wrote this book as a way toreally share a lot of my 25, 30
(48:03):
years of experience with as manypeople as possible to help free
them from you know, maybe likethe game that they're playing
that isn't working out for them.
And so, you know, anybody thatenjoyed our conversation that
feels compelled or inspired tomaybe want to lean in more than
just grabbing my book anddigging in and letting me know
(48:24):
what they think about it wouldbe the best thing they could do
for me.
SPEAKER_00 (48:28):
Before we go, think hard about how you can help
support this podcast so we cando more interviews with more
thoughtful leaders in the creditunion world.
What we're trying to figure outhere in these podcasts is what's
next for credit unions.
What can they do to really,really, really make a difference
in the financial scene?
Can't all be mega banks, can it?
(48:51):
It's my hope it won't all bemega banks.
It'll always be a place forcredit unions.
That's what we're discussinghere.
So figure out how you can help.
Get in touch with me.
This is rjmcgarvey at gmail.com.
Robert McGarvey again.
That's rjmcgarvey at gmail.com.
Get in touch.
We'll figure out a way that youcan help.
We need your support.
(49:11):
We want your support.
We thank you for your support.
The CU2.0 Podcast.
Welcome to the CU2.0 podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (00:05):
Hi, and welcome to the CU2.0 podcast with big new
ideas about credit unions andconversations about innovative
technology with credit union andfintech leaders.
This podcast is brought to youby Quillo, the real-time loan
syndication network for creditunions, and by your host,
longtime credit union andfinancial technology journalist,
(00:27):
Robert McGarvey.
And now, the CU 2.0 podcast withRobert McGarvey.
SPEAKER_00 (00:35):
When will you retire?
When?
What years of your life shouldbe the ones where you work the
longest, hardest hours?
It's two questions, two bigquestions.
And on the show today is DerekColburn, author of Let's Retire
Retirement, How to Enjoy Life tothe Fullest Now and Later.
(00:56):
It's a book that very probablywill rock your mind because it
challenges key beliefs that mostof us share about retirement.
For instance, at what age willyou retire?
Probably your answer is 65.
That's the number that jumps offmost lips.
But Coburn says, probably youwon't.
He adds to the zinger that otherages may well work much better
(01:18):
for you.
Like what?
How about 75 or 70?
And fact is, more Americans areworking longer.
Indeed, the fastest growing agecohort in the workplace is
Americans age 75 and older.
Another fact is the fullretirement age for Social
Security now is no longer 65.
In fact, it's 67.
(01:39):
Surveys also say thatapproaching 25% of Americans age
65 and higher are now working.
And Coburn believes that numberwill only increase as many
American seniors are todayhealthier, more active than were
Americans of the same age ageneration ago.
A bonus, retire later in lifeand you will need far less
retirement savings.
(02:00):
You'll hear actual numbers inthe show, and the numbers will
blow your mind.
As for what years you shouldwork longest and hardest, well,
Colburn argues that it's whenyour kids are at home.
For many, that means workingless in your 30s and 40s.
Is that catastrophic for yourretirement savings?
No, because you will be workinglater in life.
(02:21):
You'll need less retirementsavings.
QED.
In the show, Mention is made ofan app, Death Clock AI.
In the show notes, there's alink to the Washington Post
story about it.
In the show, Colburn mentionsCU2.0 founder and CEO Kirk Drake
and Resistance Wine.
There's a link to ResistanceWine in the show notes.
(02:43):
I've drunk it.
It's good.
Colburn says he wears an auraring.
There's a link in the shownotes.
In the show also, there'smention of Mihaly
Csikszentmihalyi, a brilliantpsychologist who documented the
phenomenon he called flow, wherework is highly focused and we
are happiest.
We do our best work in flow.
(03:03):
It's magical.
state listen up i want to talkabout in the book you have two
intertwined unusual ideasrevolutionary ideas if you will
SPEAKER_03 (03:19):
okay thanks
SPEAKER_00 (03:21):
number one you're working the hardest and longest
in the years of your life whenyou shouldn't be that's very
very it's like huh what Andnumber two, you think you're
going to retire at 65, butprobably you won't.
And they're intertwined, ofcourse.
And just out of curiosity, Ilooked this morning, what's the
(03:43):
full retirement age in SocialSecurity now?
67.
It's not 65 anymore.
And it's creeping up.
And I heard you say on that showthat Denmark has just raised its
retirement age to 75.
I suspect we'll do similar toget the social security accounts
(04:03):
to balance.
SPEAKER_03 (04:04):
And I think I mean, I think it's the fair thing to
do.
Like, I try not to get toopolitical.
Right.
But I mean, the majority ofpeople that put money into
Social Security get more out ofit than they put in.
And I think just in general,this idea that, like, I'm going
to sit around and do nothing for25 or 30 years, not contribute
at all and get a paycheck forit.
You know, I think it's justselfish.
(04:27):
And I also don't think that it'sgoing to make those people as
happy as they would be if theywere instead trying to find ways
that they could contribute.
in a meaningful way.
And it doesn't have to be whatthey're doing now.
It could be doing somethingdifferent.
Um, but I, I don't think, Ithink we're seeing that the data
shows that for a lot of peoplesitting on their front porch,
drinking lemonade for 30 yearsstraight, it's not, you know,
(04:48):
not unlocking extended periodsof bliss for them.
SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
No, I just, the other day I talked with a guy
who was telling me taking anUber with, and the driver was a
retired oil industry executive.
who certainly had made a lot ofmoney.
Oil industry pays very well.
And he was doing it not for themoney, but just to get out and
about and talk with people.
(05:16):
It's like, so people are doingstrange things.
Yeah.
Because how many people, I knowone guy, one guy who said, geez,
I can't wait until I retire andI'll play golf every day.
He plays golf every day.
He likes golf.
He still likes golf.
Everybody else who's done thatafter about a week, they say,
(05:37):
this is boring.
I
SPEAKER_03 (05:40):
can make an argument too, man, that just even though
it's what's normal, right?
It's the idea of putting offyour health and your key
relationships and vacations andhaving just a more enjoyable
experience in our human suits inthe name of working really hard
to save a lot of money by acertain age is a strange way to
(06:00):
live too.
UNKNOWN (06:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (06:03):
It's just become more commonplace.
It's just more acceptable thatpeople will do it.
SPEAKER_00 (06:09):
Well, yes.
And the point you make is thatmost of us are programmed to
zero in on this target.
Oh, I will retire at 65.
And yet a lot of us don't.
I understand why that targetexists.
And it's not bad to have atarget, but we all have the same
target.
And that doesn't make a heck ofa lot of sense.
(06:30):
And I'll tell you one thingthat's true.
I have a number of friends whoare college professors,
university professors.
Go back 20 years ago, theretirement age in most
departments, unofficial, youweren't forced to with 65.
Most of them now are hanging onuntil they're 75.
It's just crept up on people.
SPEAKER_03 (06:51):
Can work harder and make more money if they want to,
or they can also dial it back ifthey want to.
What is the alignment there?
SPEAKER_00 (06:59):
Well, it's a mix.
And I'd say the fintechexecutives certainly have some
significant control over theirschedule.
SPEAKER_01 (07:06):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (07:07):
The credit union executive might have less
control over their schedule.
But the credit union executives,particularly the senior ones,
have an interesting problemwhere bigger credit unions, a
very common retirement tool is aSERP, a Supplemental Executive
Retirement Plan.
which is almost always gearedfor retiring at 65.
(07:32):
And if you want to work longer,well, this doesn't work in terms
of SERP.
If you want to retire earlier,no, can't do it, man.
And you'll get that SERP in manycases when you're 45.
So there are a lot of peoplesitting there with SERPs and,
you know, if they hear thisshow, their heads will explode.
Yep.
(07:53):
Why in your book do you say thatpeople are working the longest
and hardest in the wrong decadesof their lives?
SPEAKER_03 (08:00):
Well, I mean, look, I think they are.
I mean, the way that I wouldeven personalize it for me and
for other people is that we'reworking.
Society expects us to work ourhardest and have our most
productive earning years at atime when our kids probably need
us and want us the most.
You know, for me, I have a 15and a 12 year old and they're
going to be out of the house inthree and five years
(08:22):
respectively.
And so the way that I live mylife is sort of a microcosm of
what I'm talking about inregards to retirement, where I'm
not pedal to the metal rightnow.
I'm very intentionally...
taking on a lighter schedule sothat I can spend a couple hours
every single day with each of myboys.
And that is sort of sponsoredby, that's the language I like
(08:44):
using.
It's almost like somebody'swriting a check to me.
It's sponsored by me knowingthat when my youngest is out of
the house in five years, thatI'm going to be taking on more
work, looking to contribute morevalue and likely be earning even
more money than I am right now.
And so for me, that's when Iwill look to ramp up the
(09:04):
speaking opportunity.
opportunities when I'll look toramp up maybe the coaching and
the consulting.
But for now, you know, my kidswant to hang out with me.
And that's not what you hearfrom a lot of 15 and 12 year
olds.
And I think it's because of theamount of time that I invest and
how I prioritize my relationshipwith them.
A
SPEAKER_00 (09:22):
lot of executives, and I'm sure you've talked with
them, have at best a passingrelationship with their
adolescent children.
They rarely do anything with thekids.
Well, that's pretty normal.
In five years, how old will yoube?
I'll
SPEAKER_03 (09:40):
be 53.
I'm 48 now.
SPEAKER_00 (09:42):
So at 53, you
SPEAKER_03 (09:47):
think you're going to have the energy to work much
harder.
(10:12):
plan before, that means youdon't have to save as much right
now, which means you have moremoney and more time that you get
to spend on the people andthings that are most important
to you right now.
And a big, you know, a big partof, you know, that that menu is
going to be things like selfcare, like getting better sleep
and working out more and eatingbetter.
And I think that in society, weput such an emphasis on the long
(10:35):
term benefits, you should sleepwell, you should work out
because of how great you'regoing to feel or how much better
you're going to feel 20 yearsfrom now compared to if you
don't.
But we don't spend enough timetalking about how much better
we're going to feel 20 hoursfrom now if we prioritize these
things.
And so for me, if I'm making thetime to go to the gym now
because I know I'm going to beworking longer and I don't have
(10:56):
to save as much, unlike theperson who feels like they're
running up against the clock andthey don't have time to work out
as much, they don't have time tosleep as much because they need
to save.
They need to have a certainnumber by a certain age in order
to retire.
Because I get to do thesethings, I'm just going to have
more energy now.
And I'm going to continue tohave more energy because having
it now is going to be easier tomaintain, I think, 5, 10, 20
(11:21):
years from now.
SPEAKER_00 (11:23):
Take me through the math, which is really
compelling.
How much you have to save?
You have a couple of cases inyour book.
How much you have to save ifyou're going to retire at 65,
70, and 75?
And the numbers just explode.
You go, wow.
SPEAKER_03 (11:40):
Yeah, it's really mind-blowing for someone that
hasn't done the math, and that'smost people.
So the way that I highlight theexample, the comparison, if you
will, is through a story I sharecalled A Tale of Two Tonys.
And Tony is a 45-year-oldexecutive who's making$150,000 a
year, and he has$150,000 savedup in retirement accounts.
(12:01):
And he meets with his financialadvisor, tells the financial
advisor that he's going toretire at 65 because that's the
age everyone else is picking,and the financial advisor agrees
that that's the age thateveryone else is picking.
And the advisor tells him thatin order to make this happen,
he's going to have to save about$2,400 a month adjusted for
inflation every single month forthe next 20 years in order to
(12:22):
stop working.
And so if you do the quick math,$2,400 a month spread over a
year is close to$30,000, whichis almost 20% of what he's
making, which is a non-starterfor most people.
I mean, look, it means thatyou're probably...
saving more than you're actuallyspending right now when you back
out taxes.
And so Tony begins to feeldefeated.
(12:43):
He feels like he can't go on thevacations that he wants to go
on.
He needs to skip the familydinners.
He needs to be at the officelonger and eat more fast food.
And he ends up getting there,but there's a big cost to that.
And the example that I give inthe book is this alternate
reality, this sliding doorsexample from the movie Sliding
(13:05):
Doors where it's a it's a moviewith Gwyneth Paltrow where her
her future hinges on whether ornot she catches this train or
not and she doesn't really knowthe importance or the
significance of it but I haveTony's wife say to him in this
alternate reality well why doyou want to retire at 65 you
know you you sort of like whatyou do and you like the people
you do it with and even if youdon't do that you've got all
(13:27):
these other interests and I justcan't imagine that you're ever
going to sit around and not doanything and he says you know
what you're right so he callsthe financial advisor and he
says you know, we just had thismeeting where I told you I want
to retire at 65.
What if we make it 75?
So the financial advisor comesback to him and he tells him
this second example is theamount that he needs to save
(13:47):
goes down from$2,400 a month to$110 per month.
It goes down by 96%.
And even if, you know, Tonywould have said, I'll work until
I'm 70 instead of 75.
The number goes down to$600.
It's a 75% reduction in theamount that he has to save by
just recognizing and agreeing towork an extra five years longer.
(14:11):
And the reason for this is I'vegot Tony dying at 95 in both
examples.
In the first example, he has 10less years of working, 10 less
years of saving and having thatmoney compound.
And then he needs an amount ofmoney that's going to last for
30 years from 65 to 95.
In the second example, he's 10extra years of working, 10 extra
(14:33):
years of letting his money andhis investments grow.
And then he only needs an amountof money that will last for 20
years instead of 30 years.
We've all seen the articles.
We've all seen how people havesaid to us, oh, you should save
more when you're 23 years oldand take advantage of
compounding interest.
And then we all feel sort ofdumb because we didn't do it.
Or even if we did do it, we'remaking a lot less in all
(14:54):
likelihood when we were 23 thanwe are now.
But really, no one's talkingabout how we can achieve the
same type of results and get thesame types of benefits by
letting that money just sit foran extra five or 10 years longer
on the back end.
And that's the math that I'mreally trying to help a lot of
people understand.
SPEAKER_00 (15:10):
Do they understand it when you go over it that way?
SPEAKER_03 (15:13):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:14):
I mean, the numbers seem to be compelling.
You can't argue with math.
And the math is like it goesfrom 2400 to a restaurant, a
cheap restaurant meal.
SPEAKER_03 (15:26):
It's crazy, right?
UNKNOWN (15:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (15:29):
My book has only been out now for two weeks and
I've already received four orfive messages from people,
including one from a documentaryproducer.
This guy does documentaries onNetflix and he had been toying
with a book deal and he messagedme and he said, look, I've never
bought a finance book before.
And I know that your book's nota finance book, but I thought it
(15:51):
was a finance book when I boughtit.
And I went from feeling like Ididn't have the time to justify
writing a book to you making mefeel like I did.
You calmed my anxiety.
You made me realize that I havea lot more time than I thought I
had.
And I just finished my outlineand I'm talking with publishers
right now about taking the nextstep forward.
(16:13):
And so that's obviously reallygratifying for me to hear.
And I think and I hope and Iexpect that there are going to
be a lot more stories like thatgoing forward.
SPEAKER_00 (16:21):
And even if You have to leave your present job at 65,
which is the case in some cases.
In credit union land, anexecutive can always get a job
in another credit union ifyou're an experienced executive.
SPEAKER_03 (16:41):
Are most credit unions having people take a
forced retirement at 65?
SPEAKER_00 (16:46):
That's often built into the CERP plan.
SPEAKER_03 (16:49):
Yeah.
I tell this with attorneys also.
Well, I have a sneaky suspicionand I'm already starting to see
it.
And that is because theworkforce coming up behind the
people that are going to beretiring over the next 10 years
is a smaller number than what itis now.
I think that a lot of thecompanies that currently have
these mandatory retirements aregoing to start getting a little
(17:11):
bit more flexible with them,especially if you're someone
that has the skills, theknowledge, the experience, and
you want to continue to do it.
I think that there's going to bea number of companies, whether
credit unions or not, that aregoing to be happy to have you.
And if you're good at what youdo, you're going to be able to
do it on your terms.
You're going to see a lot ofarrangements with people that
(17:33):
are going to say, look, I don'twant to work summers or I'll
work Monday to Thursday and I'llbe available for these five
hours every single day for you,but I don't want you calling me
or talking to me after that.
I don't want to be bothered onweekends.
I want to have a few months off.
And I think whatever combinationworks for you, I think that
(17:56):
companies are going to be Now,how do you
SPEAKER_00 (18:08):
talk with people about how they might estimate
their life expectancy?
SPEAKER_03 (18:15):
Well, you know, this is the first year in a long time
that life expectancy has gonedown.
But I think that you need toreally take a closer look at the
stats and see how they apply toyou.
So they're going down because alot of people are dying when
they're younger.
The COVID had a big impact onthat for some people.
(18:38):
Life expectancy, it's funny,when retirement was really first
created, this was in 18 And theywere setting up the first social
plan for older workers as a wayto help them bridge the gap
between their working years andwhen they would pass away.
And they picked 65 as the age in1889 for when people would start
(19:01):
receiving these benefits.
because you guessed it, that wasthe age that people were
expected to live until.
So 65 was, hey, we'll startgiving you money at 65 because
we know most of you are gonna bedead by then.
They increased it to 70 a fewyears later, but FDR decided in
1935 with the Social SecurityPlan, Social Security Act and
(19:23):
getting that set up that 65 wasthe right number and life
expectancy at that time wasabout 71.
And what's interesting is goingback to around that time and
shortly thereafter, If you weregoing to retire, you would be
getting a third of your incomefrom Social Security.
You'd be getting a third of yourincome from a pension plan or a
SERP or something like that.
And you only had to come up witha third of your remaining need.
(19:46):
And it only had to last forabout six or seven years in all
likelihood because of lifeexpectancy.
So now life expectancy in theaggregate is pushing 80.
But if you make it to 65, thenyou're looking at like 86 for
men and 88 for women.
And I think I think that sort oflike furthering the gap, and I'm
a big fan of this, like I hintedat it earlier, take maybe some
(20:10):
of the money that you now, afterhearing the Tony example, to
where now you don't feel likeyou have to save as much and you
have a little bit more that youcan spend, invest that
proactively into your health.
Make sure that you're exercisingmore.
Make sure that you're sleepingbetter.
And I think that people thathave a little bit of money to
throw at their health are goingto probably be able to live
(20:30):
until 95, 100 years old withoutmuch trouble and without really
like a dramatic dip in terms oftheir quality of life.
When I say lived in 95 or 100,I'm not talking like you've got
these 10 to 15 miserable yearswhere you're old and decrepit
and you're extending that.
I'm talking about improving thequality of your health span, not
(20:51):
just your lifespan.
SPEAKER_00 (20:54):
And if listeners want to estimate how long to
live, I can recommend an appcalled Death Clock AI.
SPEAKER_01 (21:01):
Oh,
SPEAKER_00 (21:02):
great.
It's free.
It asks you a bunch of questionswithin five minutes or so.
It comes back with, it tells youthe exact day you're going to
die.
It's just a year.
SPEAKER_03 (21:11):
And what sort of inputs or variables does that
have?
SPEAKER_00 (21:15):
Oh, it asks you predictable questions about your
health.
SPEAKER_03 (21:20):
Okay, got it.
Cool.
SPEAKER_00 (21:21):
A little bit about family history.
I think many people will tellyou the best indicator of your
life expectancy is if you'remale, it's your father's.
How old was your father when hedied?
How old was your grandfatherwhen he died?
If you're a woman, it's usuallythe maternal side.
It asks that kind of stuff.
(21:42):
It got a really nice write-up inthe New York Times or the
Washington Post, which is why Idownloaded it.
Well,
SPEAKER_03 (21:48):
I'll tell you, you know, my father, my father got
dementia when he was 63 and hepassed away at 71.
And I, you know, rightly so, I'ma little terrified about that
for myself, but also him gettingdementia was the catalyst for
me.
Like, like there's, there's alot of what I talk about in this
(22:08):
book and why living for themoment and living for right now
sort of stems from that, butalso like for me to really kind
of dig into my health.
And so, you know, I like, Like,while genetics could play a
factor, I'm throwing good moneyand good resources at a lot of
the preventative stuff to, youknow, like my father, for
(22:30):
example, like had, you know, acertain gene where he couldn't,
he couldn't like break downtoxins in his body where, and I
don't have that gene, but myfather didn't know he had that
gene.
And that really accelerated hiscondition, if you will.
And so, you know, I am laterthis week, I'm actually There's
a company called Preneuvo, andthey do whole body MRI scans.
(22:54):
And so this is not covered byinsurance.
And the cost is gone.
It's expensive, but it's gonedown dramatically over the last
couple of years.
They've really been able toscale this.
When it first came out, it wasabout$4,000, and now it's about
$2,000.
But the quick overview here isthat I'm getting a full body
(23:15):
brain limb MRI where they'regoing to detect anything that
might be off with me physicallyor otherwise.
It's not covered by insurance,but for me, it's$2,000 just to
check a box to make sure thatthere's nothing that's brewing
that would catch me off guard orthrow me off by surprise.
SPEAKER_00 (23:39):
One of the wealthiest people I've known,
retired at 50, is working infinancial services in manhattan
made a lot of money he retiredat 50 because his father had
died at 51.
and uh and he figured he didn'thave long to live so he wound up
(23:59):
living until he was about 72.
he really had made a lot ofmoney so he was doing fine uh
and through through through therest of his life and he got very
active in didn't go back to workbut he got very active uh Served
on a lot of boards of nonprofitsof organizations that he
approved of.
(24:20):
Very involved in the CatholicChurch.
Very involved in the college hewent to.
And so a very busy guy.
And mainly doing good stuff.
But it was all volitional.
He didn't feel he had to do anyof it.
He did what he chose to do.
And had a great life.
That's great.
So sometimes you can actuallyretire early if you plan
(24:41):
accordingly.
I think he worked like a doguntil he was 50.
SPEAKER_03 (24:47):
Yeah.
And for me, again, it's justlike being present for my kids,
being able to prioritize therelationship that I have with my
wife and my friends and myhealth and just really leaning
into all of it.
I guess I could.
I mean, look, I had a wealthmanagement practice that I was
(25:09):
able to sell to a private equitycompany.
I had an exit and I've got somecash and I probably don't have
enough cash to never have towork again, but I've got enough
cash.
that I can coast for a littlebit here.
And for me, I think I see peoplethat have won the game that most
people are playing, this moneygame, and they've got the
(25:29):
possessions and the cars or thejets or the clothes or the beach
homes.
And I think that all of thosethings can be great.
And I'm not opposed to them.
And I even think that they canbe very inspiring for the right
people at the right time.
But I think that for me, whereI'm at now is I think that
flexibility with my time andfreedom with my time is the
(25:55):
flex.
It's the thing.
Wealth for me is I get to pickmy kids up from school every
single day.
I have a 15-year-old, and wehave a gym in our house, and we
work out together.
three to four times a weektogether for an hour at a time.
And 45 of those 60 minutes, he'snot saying much to me.
(26:17):
But the other 10 to 15 minutes,I'm there, and we're having good
conversations, and we're talkingabout music, and we're talking
about sports.
And look, I don't really know awhole lot of– dads with 15 year
olds who, who can say the samethat, that, that I can say in
terms of like, I think my kidactually enjoys spending time
(26:38):
with me and same with my youngerones.
So I think, look, if you can, ifyou can have it all great, you
know what I mean?
Like, I think that's incredible.
I think for most people in orderto, in order to save a certain
amount of money to be able tostop at 65 and have your money
last for 30 years, because Ithink 95 is the age you don't
want to, you don't want to likego, you don't want to estimate
(26:58):
passing away your lifeexpectancy at like 82 and then
you're running out of money at82 and you're still kind of
kicking and going strong.
So I think you need to have itin the 90, 95 range at a minimum
for most people.
But yeah, I just, you know, Ithink a lot of people are just
making sacrifices.
They're sacrificing theirhealth, they're sacrificing
(27:19):
their happiness, they'resacrificing their key
relationships in the name ofsaving a certain amount of money
by a certain age to be able toexperience all these things that
they're sacrificing when theyget there.
And I think for a lot of people,this idea, this retirement, what
they arrive to is not what theywere sold.
It's not what they thought itwas going to be.
(27:40):
And you've got a bigunretirement movement right now.
Up to about 30% of people thathave retired are going back to
work.
And it's not because they needthe money.
It's because they missed theconnection.
They missed the contribution.
They missed being able to have apurpose bigger than themselves.
SPEAKER_00 (27:58):
How do you...
suggest to a person that theyget started on this?
In other words, person hearsthis, they read your book, they
say, geez, it soundsinteresting.
Maybe this would work for me.
Then what?
When you
SPEAKER_03 (28:13):
say
SPEAKER_00 (28:14):
started on this,
SPEAKER_03 (28:14):
what do you mean
SPEAKER_00 (28:15):
by that?
Begin to implement what you'retalking about.
Begin to implement this plan.
SPEAKER_03 (28:21):
So look, I think what I've done, there are other
books, including mine, where wetalk about We remind our
readers, we remind the audiencethat they're gonna really miss
Their kids, they're going toreally regret not having spent
(28:41):
more time with them whilethey're in the house.
If they don't do it, they'regoing to regret neglecting their
relationship with theirsignificant other.
They're going to regret likeeverybody, their health,
everybody understands that theyshould be doing this more, but,
but no one has reallyeffectively that I've seen
addressed the big problem.
elephant in the room, which ishow can I afford to do this?
(29:04):
I know I should be home more.
I would like to be home more.
I would like to be leaning intovacations and all of these
things, but I've got bills topay and I have to save a certain
amount so I can stop doing thisfor the rest of my life.
What I have hopefully done for alot of people reading this via
the two Tonys example and otherexamples in the book is I've
(29:27):
removed money as the barrier.
I've said I've now Now allowsyou to take money out of the
equation.
Now you have more money and moretime than you previously thought
you had.
Now, like the first thing thatI'm giving you is a little bit
of space.
I'm giving you a little bit ofspace.
I'm letting you catch yourbreath.
I'm letting you have a littlebit less stress so that now you
(29:49):
can see where should I beinvesting more of my time or
more of my money.
more of this time and more ofthis money that I have that I
didn't think I had prior tohearing what you just shared
with me.
SPEAKER_00 (30:03):
And I do think that many companies, this wouldn't be
true for a CEO, but manycompanies would say to a senior
executive, oh, you want toreduce your hours?
That would be okay.
Let's see how we could do that.
But then some complications kickin.
So, oh, geez, you're going tolose your health plan or
(30:23):
whatever.
Yep.
But those are fixable problems.
SPEAKER_03 (30:30):
Yeah, I think so, because you can still get health
insurance up to 30 hours a week,I think, right?
SPEAKER_00 (30:34):
Something like that.
Even if with Obamacare, you canstill get it anyway in almost
all states.
To
SPEAKER_03 (30:45):
kind of add to your question about where to start, I
have a belief, and it's what'shappened with me.
It's how this book was born.
My belief is that the very bestperson for any of us to be
getting advice from, for any oneperson to be getting advice
from, is...
the highest and best version ofthemselves.
(31:08):
So right now, I think themajority of people are carrying
just a lot of stress, a lot ofanxiety.
They're sleep deprived.
They have brain fog.
They're caught up in what'sgoing on in the geopolitical
climate.
And now it's like, okay, I'vegot some work issues or some
money issues or some healthissues.
(31:28):
And how should I spend my time?
And I think that most people arejust so far removed moved from
the highest and best version ofthemselves that they're almost
like not qualified to be makingthese big picture decisions at
this point.
And so I think for a lot ofpeople, What I would recommend
(31:49):
is, especially if you're workingreally hard now and you feel
like you're making sacrifices inthe name of being able to retire
and stop at a certain point intime, to just take a step back
and maybe for the next couple ofweeks, you just really try to
prioritize sleeping well, eatingwell, and allow this version of
(32:11):
yourself that's a little bitmore well-rested, that has a
little bit more energy to showup and And then think about,
okay, what is my next best move?
Because for me, I wear a devicecalled an Oura Ring.
And it tracks your sleep andyour steps and your heart rate
(32:32):
and all of this.
There's other brands.
There's a Whoop bracelet.
There's an Apple Watch.
There's a lot of companies thatdo this.
And I think it's a reallyimportant thing for most people
to be looking to get their datato access data.
what they're doing and what theycould potentially do to improve
it.
And so for me, I've had it forseven years.
And the first four years I hadit, you would get a sleep score.
(32:54):
You get a sleep score everysingle night.
And my sleep score was neverhigher than a 70.
Wow.
Wow.
Yeah, it was just really...
But if you would have asked me,are you sleeping well?
I would have said, yeah, I feelfine.
I feel good.
But I didn't know.
I didn't know...
what it would be like toactually sleep really, really
(33:16):
well.
And I said, I'm going to makethis a goal for myself.
I want to wake up in the morningand I want to see if I can get
to a place where I feel amazing.
And so long story short, I wentfrom a 68 out of 100 to a 77 to
an 82.
And now on most nights, my sleepscore and the corresponding way
(33:36):
I feel when I wake up is betweenan 85 and a 95.
And the way that I feel now mostmornings when I wake up, I
didn't know that feeling was onthe menu a couple of years ago.
And I bring this up for a coupleof reasons.
One is when I sleep well, I makebetter choices at 9 a.m.
And those better choices at 9a.m.
(33:56):
lead to better choices at 11a.m.
And I'm more likely to eatsomething that's good for me for
lunch.
I'm more likely to not skip theworkout.
I'm more likely to be more calmand more patient with my kids
and my wife and therelationships that I have if
I've slept well.
And so for me, that's what Ireally want to prioritize and
(34:17):
focus on.
But but the other thing is Ijust really want the sleep
component here to, to, um,highlight how I, I now I'm like
a different person showing upthan the person that I was a few
years ago, uh, with the way thatI choose to spend my time, the
way that I choose to lead mylife.
SPEAKER_00 (34:37):
I personally wear a Fitbit, which I got, I've had
one device or another for 15years.
And, uh, And I got it to do stepcounting.
And then one day I noticed that,hey, it gives me this sleep
score.
And I've become addicted to mysleep score, which often is over
(34:59):
80, although I've never gotten a90, I have to admit.
So it's good data.
It's useful data.
And it correlates with how Ifeel and how energetic I am,
too.
So you see, well, there'ssomething to this sleep score
thing.
SPEAKER_03 (35:15):
There's a lot of different One thing that I share
(35:46):
with a lot of people thatthey're like, oh, yeah, I'm
eating 30 minutes before bed andthey stop doing that and their
sleep improves dramatically.
And then the other big one isusing mouth tape or a chin strap
to where you are reminding yourbody that it's better for it to
breathe in and out through itsnose and not the mouth.
SPEAKER_00 (36:08):
As you say these things, I remember.
In movies and TVs from the 50s,people would have a nightcap
just before they went to bed,some kind of alcoholic drink.
And I absolutely agree with you.
Alcohol messes my sleep scoredramatically.
SPEAKER_03 (36:25):
And I will tell you, you know, I might be...
not doing it justice.
I might be oversimplifying ithere, but for me, because I,
look, I had a glass or two ofwine almost every single night
for 20 years.
And it was just a way to unwindand a way for me to just like
have a ritual with my wife.
It was nice.
But I think for me, unlockingthis new feeling when I wake up
(36:50):
in the morning.
And just, I'm telling you, ifyou don't wake up in the morning
and feel absolutely incredible,then it's worth pursuing that
feeling.
And for me, that feeling feelsbetter than the feeling I get
from having a buzz after havinga glass or two of wine.
So it becomes less aboutwillpower for me and more just
(37:14):
like my body, my mind, justknowing like why...
Why are you going to have aglass of wine tonight?
Because if you do that, you'regoing to ruin that feeling that
you're going to have tomorrowmorning.
And you like that feeling waymore than you like the feeling
that you're going to get fromhaving this glass of wine.
SPEAKER_00 (37:27):
Now, why do you tell people, and I think you do this,
that they need to have more funin their lives?
SPEAKER_03 (37:36):
Because I just don't think that people are really...
prioritizing fun.
I go as far as to suggest that Ibelieve that we're in the midst
of a fun recession right now.
I think 99% of adults, based onmy informal survey and seeing
some other data out there, arenot even coming close to having
(37:56):
an appropriate amount of fun ona People for 5, 10, 15 years,
you know, when what do you dofor fun?
And, you know, most people, theysort of look at me and they
pause and they have to think andthey get back to me with
something like we went out todinner with this other couple a
month and a half ago and wetalked about our kids or our job
(38:17):
or like, who knows?
Right.
But but like I like I just thinkthat.
People think that the world isgoing crazy right now and people
are stressed and people have allthese concerns.
what if our bodies, our minds,our souls are making things
(38:40):
harder for us when we're atwork, when we're doing the work,
when we're trying to improve inother areas of my life, because
we're never showing them a goodtime.
We're never letting ourselvesexperience the bliss that we
felt when we were kids.
Again, my kids, they wake upmost days.
And it's like, what am I doingfor fun today?
(39:02):
How am I going to have fun?
How much fun can I have?
Who can I have fun with?
And at some point, it just wentaway for a lot of people.
And I understand that this mightbe triggering.
And my only reason for bringingit up is that I just want people
to just enjoy themselves in thislife, maybe more than what
they're currently doing rightnow.
(39:22):
And I've got suggestions forwhat I think can be like lot of
fun and what people should maybeconsider doing um but yeah so i
don't know if you if you havedifferent views or different
experiences but but for me ijust it just i just see so many
people that have just like havejust said like yeah i they have
(39:43):
a really good reason for whythey can't and aren't having
more fun on a regular basis
SPEAKER_00 (39:48):
and as as you're talking i'm thinking Fun is
where you find it, too.
So I was asking myself, when didI last have fun?
Well, my answer is last night.
I helped feed 400 people at asoup kitchen.
And it felt fun, rewarding, alittle disturbing.
(40:11):
But to see such misery, becauseit's Phoenix in the summer and
these are miserable people.
SPEAKER_03 (40:17):
Look, I think that there are– I talk about
charitable giving also and why Ithink that's really important
and why we should be doing moreof that.
And I do, though, want to just–respond to that, to your fun
last night, which A, I thinkthat's amazing.
(40:40):
B, I tell a story in the bookabout a friend of mine who, when
I'm sharing this idea of a funrecession with her, she's like,
yeah, I've been really trying toincorporate more fun into my
work.
And I'm like, that's great.
And that's not what I'm talkingabout.
I do think that we can find funin other areas of our life, but
I also think that we should beleaning into trying to have fun
(41:01):
for the There's a term calledcollective effervescence.
Collective effervescence hasbeen known to be the conditions
needed for our bodies toexperience the most bliss that
they can experience at any giventime.
And the two conditions requiredfor this are, one, being in a
(41:22):
flow state, forgetting abouttime, forgetting about where you
are, and two, having a shared orpooled or collective energy that
is piggybacking off of Everyonewho is there.
So for that reason, I'msuggesting that live music and
stand up comedy are the two bestways that we can access fun as
human beings.
(41:42):
So this is not to say that Idon't want you to keep
volunteering.
And serving other people.
And certainly, I don't want youto not continue to enjoy that.
Keep doing that.
And also, let's sprinkle in somefun just for the sake of having
fun where we're not checkingother boxes.
We're not doing it for a certainreason.
We're just doing it because itjust fills up our heart and our
(42:04):
soul.
And we just love being there.
And that's the whole reason whywe're doing it.
SPEAKER_00 (42:08):
Hear this.
First guy who's mentioned MihalyCsikszentmihalyi to me in a long
time.
I interviewed him at least adozen times when Flo was a
really hot book, hot topic.
Great guy.
And you can go into Flo,according to him, doing almost
(42:29):
anything.
SPEAKER_02 (42:30):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (42:31):
Bowling, sure.
Why not?
It's working, whatever.
Soup Kitchen, was I in Flo?
No, I wasn't.
I have to admit.
SPEAKER_03 (42:41):
Again, I'm not knocking it, man.
I think that's
SPEAKER_00 (42:43):
amazing.
No, no, no.
I hear you.
I hear you.
Now, you go to an astonishingnumber of live music events.
What was the number?
SPEAKER_03 (42:53):
Oh, man.
I went to over 25 last year.
I went to one last night whereI'm talking to you the day after
Father's Day here.
And I had my boys go to a bandthat I love as my Father's Day
presence.
And, yeah, I mean, I've seenPearl Jam live.
Something like 48 times.
(43:13):
I've got some other bands that Ilove quite a bit.
You know, my wife and I lastyear went to, while the kids
were at sleepaway camp for a fewyears, we went and saw Taylor
Swift in Amsterdam and Pearl Jamin Barcelona.
So we did a nice...
six-day European vacation, saw acouple of music shows.
But look, I don't want anybodyto feel like they need to do
(43:35):
anything that elaborate.
If somebody's listening to thisand they feel like that, yeah,
maybe I've been letting the funin my life slip a little bit and
I should get it back, let'sstart small.
If you haven't been to the gymin four or five years, I
wouldn't recommend you sign upfor a half marathon next
weekend.
I would recommend that you justdip your toe in and start
(43:56):
getting the energy and thephysicality back into your life.
And so, like, are there any, youknow, fun...
restaurants or bars in yourhometown that have cover bands
or are there stand up comedyjoints?
And and that would probably be agood place, I think, for a lot
(44:17):
of people to start.
Like I know, you know, KirkDrake has like, you know, his
winery and he brings bands inand there's just in the
summertime.
There's just so many places.
I don't think that it needs tobe anything over the top.
I would just encourage people toexplore and look into maybe
there are, you know, justdifferent ways for them to find
great music, great comedy.
(44:38):
Look, sports is something thatsome people ask about, like
sports.
What about sports?
It sounds like sports could beon that list.
And certainly sports can capturesome of what I'm talking about.
But the other problem withsports is that there's a 50%
chance that you're not going tobe happy at the end of a
sporting event if your teamloses, right?
So I've never gone to a PearlJam concert and had the lead
(45:01):
guitarist strike out four timesand make an error in the field,
right?
So, so there's just, um, uh,I'm, I'm really setting myself
up to, to not have to lose inmost likely scenario, uh, with,
uh, with a concert or a standupcomedian.
SPEAKER_00 (45:19):
Well, I, I, a year ago, I took a bunch of my
relatives from New Jersey.
We're visiting me in Phoenix andthe Yankees happened to be
playing the Diamondbacks.
I bought tickets.
And I had a really good time,but I didn't care which team
won.
SPEAKER_03 (45:34):
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's great.
SPEAKER_00 (45:36):
My relatives did.
And the Yankees happened to win.
They were happy.
But I was indifferent.
I was just enjoying the wholething.
It was a good game, too.
Aaron Judge hit a home run.
It was wonderful.
SPEAKER_03 (45:47):
Oh, that's amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (45:49):
It
SPEAKER_03 (45:49):
doesn't always have to be that.
But I think that also in orderto experience the peak, peak,
peak bliss– that it might haveto be like a team that you're
invested in and them winninglike the Super Bowl or the World
Series or something like that.
Because when I talk about thiscollective effervescence and I'm
talking about this sharedenergy, you go to see a
(46:12):
musician.
It can be any musician.
It can be big or small, arena,whatever you want to call it.
But they're playing a song thathas a couple of lyrics in it
that you have– sung at the topof your lungs while you're
driving, uh, you know, a dozentimes and there's 5,000 other
(46:32):
people there that have had thesame experience.
And then you're all singing thattogether at once.
It is just, uh, it just producesa feeling in your body.
That's just really hard todescribe.
That's really, I think, hard to,hard to obtain, you know, um,
you know, if you are, uh, youknow, doing, doing other things.
So I Look, I'm not here to judgeanybody's type of fun.
(46:55):
I'm here for the people thatneed it and are open to it, just
here to nudge them a little bitand give them permission to
maybe allow themselves to have alittle bit more enjoyment and a
little bit more fun in theirlives.
SPEAKER_00 (47:07):
I think I got what I wanted.
This has been good.
Anything you want to say thatyou were dying to say that I
didn't ask you about?
SPEAKER_03 (47:14):
I would just say that I think what I'm most proud
of, I think, with this bookis...
I wrote a book that just has alot of information in it that is
just way more than I could evercover in a 45- or 60-minute
conversation with somebody.
And so even though we touched ona number of key points, and I
(47:39):
think you did a really, reallygreat job of preparing and
asking me some really– wonderfulquestions.
I've loved our conversation.
There's still just a lot that wedidn't even bring up that I
think could also be helpful topeople.
And so right now, I don't reallyhave anything to sell.
I wrote this book as a way toreally share a lot of my 25, 30
(48:03):
years of experience with as manypeople as possible to help free
them from you know, maybe likethe game that they're playing
that isn't working out for them.
And so, you know, anybody thatenjoyed our conversation that
feels compelled or inspired tomaybe want to lean in more than
just grabbing my book anddigging in and letting me know
(48:24):
what they think about it wouldbe the best thing they could do
for me.
SPEAKER_00 (48:28):
Before we go, think hard about how you can help
support this podcast so we cando more interviews with more
thoughtful leaders in the creditunion world.
What we're trying to figure outhere in these podcasts is what's
next for credit unions.
What can they do to really,really, really make a difference
in the financial scene?
Can't all be mega banks, can it?
(48:51):
It's my hope it won't all bemega banks.
It'll always be a place forcredit unions.
That's what we're discussinghere.
So figure out how you can help.
Get in touch with me.
This is rjmcgarvey at gmail.com.
Robert McGarvey again.
That's rjmcgarvey at gmail.com.
Get in touch.
We'll figure out a way that youcan help.
We need your support.
(49:11):
We want your support.
We thank you for your support.
The CU2.0 Podcast.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd is a thought-provoking, opinionated, and topic-driven journey through the top sports stories of the day.