June 12, 2024 • 43 mins
Dr. Allison Brager joins Sean and Nathan on The Cult of Recreationalism! Dr./Major Brager is a neurobiologist and sleep expert, and she discusses her work in supporting special operations and the importance of sleep and circadian rhythms. They talk about sleep timing and recovery, the myth of catching up on sleep, human performance, consistent sleep patterns, and everything else you want to know about. They talk about Allison's background to get to where she is today which involves D1 athletics, the CrossFit Games, and of course, the military.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Background
02:27 The Role of Sleep in Special Operations
07:28 The Science Behind Sleep and Recovery
07:35 The Impact of Sleep on Athletic and Cognitive Performance
09:10 Immunohistochemistry and Animal Models
11:19 Dr. Breger's Journey into Sleep Research
14:01 The Evolution of Sleep and Recovery
14:58 Debunking Sleep Myths
18:08 The Impact of Sleep Deprivation on Performance and Teamwork
20:31 The Importance of Sleep Timing for Recovery
22:36 Consistent Sleep Timing as We Age
22:59 Tips for Improving Sleep Quality and Falling Asleep Faster
25:55 Managing Jet Lag: Staying Awake Until Bedtime
29:37 The Importance of Consistency in Sleep Patterns
32:56 From Pole Vaulting to Neuroscience: Allison's Journey
40:15 Finding Relaxation in Vinyl Records
43:08 Closing Remarks and Contact Information
Check us out at www.bubsnaturals.com
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Follow Dr. Allison Brager at:
instagram.com/docjockzzz
Check out her book: "Meathead: Unraveling the Athletic Brain"
Intro Music: Stock Media provided by eitanepsteinmusic / Pond5
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
coming from.
No, you should just stay that close thewhole time.
Just stay right up in there.
I get coached by this guy all the time onwhere I'm supposed to position myself, how
I'm supposed to look, and all the things,so.
For the first couple, he was like downhere, like on the screen for it.
And I was like, let's move you up.
So a little more proportion.
(00:20):
think where I am, I don't know if youlike, if it's, you know.
Yeah, cool.
Sean, let me know when you're ready.
And then, cool.
So Allison, Sean is going to kind of introit, and then I'll go into it after that.
Sweet.
Also, Sean is going to have to leave.
(00:40):
He has to take, he has dad duty tonight.
So.
have 40 minutes.
So like, I'll take this as far as we can.
At some point, I'm going to make areference to needing to get to work on my
recovery.
And then I'll use that as my excuse to gotake a nap and sign off.
Okay, perfect.
That's fine, yeah.
(01:03):
Okay, yeah, I'm only like, because of theFBI, so.
There we go.
Alright, so I'm gonna play this thing andthen Sean will hit it.
What's everybody?
Wow, that was a great start.
(01:23):
What's up, everybody?
And welcome to the Cult of Recreationalismpodcast.
I am your host, Sean Lake, along withNathan Morris.
And today on the show, we've got Dr.
Allison Breger.
Allison is, or I should say, Dr.
Breger is a neurobiologist, a four -yearvarsity letterman at Brown University for
(01:45):
track.
In other words, she's faster than you are.
a current enlisted American soldier, aCrossFit Games athlete.
So now she's faster than you and stronger.
She's also an author of an epic bookcalled Meathead, Unraveling the Athletic
Brain.
(02:05):
She's an expert on sleep and circadianrhythms, which is what we're here to dig
into today.
Welcome, Allison.
Hey, it's nice to be here to see you bothagain.
Yeah, I was telling Sean the last time Ihung out with you it was in a minivan in
Tennessee and you were emailing militaryofficials and you were about to fly to
(02:28):
Germany.
And you've been like...
trip to the five -star building firstbefore Germany, but yeah.
We'd like to be invited to that meeting iffor no other reason than to shake hands
and offer some great supplements.
But we'll save that for another time.
(02:50):
Yeah, and so Allison, I put together alist because I hadn't really spoken with
you prior to that, and so I starteddigging.
And so your LinkedIn page, your place ofemployment is the US Special Operations
Command headquarters.
Can you tell us and the audience what thatmeans?
(03:14):
So essentially I work for, I support in ascientific capacity, I support special
operations.
So special operations were tipped with thespear in terms of expertise and they bring
together the best and brightest from alldifferent areas to help support their
military missions.
(03:35):
And so I provide that support as ascientist.
you.
And then your role is Ghost Fellow, whichis a really cool job title.
Yeah, so it actually dates back to WorldWar II.
There's this platoon called the GhostPlatoon where they basically had these
(03:56):
inflatable tanks to act as a form ofdeterrence in disguise for adversaries.
And then when the Germans went up to thesetanks, they saw that they were
inoperational.
So.
It's this idea really of pushing forwardthe best technology to help us with our
(04:18):
myriad of clandestine operations.
That's interesting.
I've never, I want to go down that rabbithole too.
Learn more about that.
could be an entire conversation becausethat takes on so many elements of human
performance, technology and innovation.
I mean, I imagine you're looking reallyacross the board at a lot of those.
(04:42):
Yeah, I mean, so, you know, our number onespecial operations truth is humans are
more important than hardware.
And so with every type of new technologysystem we're building in tandem, we think
about the human operator and can he or shewithstand operating this system in as, you
know, extreme of an environment aspossible.
(05:05):
And if not, how do we...
implement these safeguards and safetyprocedures so that we're keeping our human
operators safe and also helping themperform to their best when they're
struggling some.
(05:25):
It's funny, we at bubs have I mean, not toside shoot, but like we're talking about
our hydration product internally a lotright now.
And I have a side conversation going aboutwhich magnesium we should be adding to an
electrolyte to get the best results.
And I think of it exclusively through thelens of human performance.
(05:47):
So I'm thinking of this product calledMagteen, which is a magnesium L3 and
eight.
And
It's not in a very large amount.
It's, you know, 60, 70 milligrams perserving.
But why do a magnesium citrate if itreally isn't going to help improve human
performance and even 60, 70 milligrams ofthe other stuff could give just a little
(06:10):
nudge.
And I just, I like the little nudges thatall add up together to be a big nudge.
Yeah, no, that is actually a hugedifference.
So it actually, I mean, I know a littlebit about this.
It goes a little bit back to basicbiochemistry that we, you know, either
took appreciation for in 10th grade ordidn't take appreciation for in 10th
(06:30):
grade.
And it actually goes back to the likestructural placement of the carbon and the
hydrogen atoms on.
the actual organic molecule in terms of,it's called a Fischer projection, like are
they facing to the left or are they facingto the right?
And believe it or not, that difference ofwhere the carbon atoms are and the
(06:53):
hydrogen atoms are on the left or theright makes a difference in terms of how
the body absorbs that substance and thenit also can influence like downstream
physiology.
So.
Without getting too deep into the weeds,like for example, we know powders are more
effective than pills because a powder willincrease bioavailability versus a pill.
(07:19):
And then also too, with a powder, sincethere's typically carbonate, biocarbonate
attached to that, the biocarbonateslightly increases carbon dioxide levels
in the blood, which sounds like a badthing.
but it's not because the brain, you know,we think about magnesium as a sleep
(07:42):
promoting substance now, right, as part ofthe sleep formulary.
Well, the brain, anytime there's anincrease in carbon dioxide levels or
detection in the blood, the brain'simmediate response is to be in a state of
sleep or to shut down certain processes.
(08:03):
So,
I'm not saying this is like a toxic,harmful, damaging effect.
I'm just saying that increased CO2 in theblood can possibly have a sleep promoting
effect.
I mean, we know from a few clinical trialsthat magnesium does promote sleep and
improve sleep quality.
(08:24):
Mechanism of action is yet to bedetermined, but just talking to a few
chemists and biochemists I know, that'stheir...
hypothesized mechanism of action eventhough it hasn't formally been assessed
yet in a randomized control trial.
Wow.
I mean, neat stuff.
My key takeaway from that as the guy whoflagged out on chemistry in the 10th grade
(08:47):
is if I can put magnesium L3 and 8 inthere, do it.
That's what I heard.
So thank you for that.
I appreciate that tip.
Now, this is going to kind of lead backinto that.
But on LinkedIn, you're endorsed forimmunohistochemistry.
(09:09):
What is that?
So prior to doing human work, I used to doa lot of animal work to look at
identifying what genetic factors,biological factors influence sleep.
And so in order to determine if, forexample, a drug that is going through
(09:32):
clinical drug trials has an impact onsleep and wake systems in the brains of
animals, you can look for neuronalmarkers.
After the animal is, we use the termsacrificed.
That's like the PC term for it.
So basically, immunohistochemistry islooking at sections of their brain,
(09:56):
staining their brain for a specificchemical.
And this chemical, how it is stained isthrough manipulating the immune system.
So essentially antibodies.
And that's what immunohistochemistry is.
It's a process of detecting differentprotein factors and the expression of
(10:18):
different biological factors in a specificbrain area.
So Nathan note to self, a lot of goats, alot of goats, a lot of rats, little mice,
a couple of goats.
All good.
mostly hamsters.
So hamsters are actually one of the bestmodels for the endocrine system in
circadian rhythms because they have veryrobust expression of their endocrine
(10:45):
patterns and their patterns do changeacross seasons.
And it's also very sensitive to changes inthe light -dark schedule.
So that's why circadian biologists andreproductive endocrinologists love using
hamsters as an animal model.
And then we did a lot of mice too, becausethat's one of the many species you can
manipulate their genome.
(11:06):
So a lot of our studies, we would actuallymanipulate the genetic expression of
certain factors and create mice forcertain traits based on those genetics.
I like to think of my early research asthe guy from South Park, remember?
Professor Mifonzo, who created like the...
(11:27):
the Siamese pigs and the Siamese monkeysand all that.
That's, yeah.
thank you because like, this is this, youjust made everything more human because
before that I was like, this is flying sofar over my head, but thank God this is
South Park reference in here.
You just anchored us back to where mybrain lives.
It's that and then pizza french fries.
(11:49):
Exactly.
There is a South Park reference foreverything.
and so you obviously like you've beentalking a little bit about circadian
rhythms and all that kind of stuff.
Like your specialty is sleep, correct?
My specialty is actually circadian rhythmsbecause when it comes to sleep, there's a
circadian component and there's somethingcalled a homeostatic component, which
(12:12):
basically means like for as long as you'reawake, the drive to sleep increases.
I sort of look at the interaction betweenboth now because in the military, we do a
lot of not just night operations, we do alot of sustained wakefulness for very long
periods of time.
But my bread and butter is reallycircadian rhythms.
And so what drove that?
(12:33):
Was there like a certain point in yourlife where like, I wanna learn more about
this because this just happened to me?
Or how did you get into that?
So there actually is a story behind this.
I...
I had a gymnastics coach who once told meto always plan your career around your
lifestyle and not your lifestyle aroundyour career.
(12:56):
So she's like, you really want a careerthat is a lifestyle because that's the
only way you'll be happy and the only wayyou'll come to work appreciating what you
do and you're less likely to burn out.
So towards the end of college, I knew Iwanted to do neuroscience and I knew I
wanted to be a scientist.
(13:16):
And so I just started thinking one day, Iwas like, well, I love, you know, the
world of athletics and exercise.
So if I want to be a scientist, I want tobe a scientist who studies exercise.
I also appreciate the importance of sleepbecause truly I think being a good sleeper
and having the discipline to get as muchsleep as possible as early on as middle
(13:42):
school is why I flourished as a two sportathlete.
And then I was a -
the valedictorian of my very large highschool as well in high school and then
continued that onwards in college.
So sleep was important for me for thatreason, for human performance.
And then, you know, I was like, well, Ilove neuroscience and neurochemistry.
(14:03):
So, you know, I love all research aroundserotonin, right?
Because serotonin is the basis of whatmakes you love and crave exercise.
And it's also part of sleep.
So I literally will.
for the world's expert who had somehowconverged serotonin, exercise and sleep
together.
And it turns out this individual is Dr.
(14:23):
Dave Glass at Kent State University.
He's now retired, but he studied this inanimal model.
So he essentially looked at how the timingof exercise influenced sleep and wake
rhythms.
And it's through the release and secretionof serotonin within very specific areas of
the body.
So that's how I got to where I am today.
(14:45):
That's wild.
So, so this actually kind of leads into aquestion I was going to have, which is
like, you know, I wear a whoop strap.
I have been reading.
Yeah.
I mean, I mean, I, I don't live and die byit.
In fact, I try and purposely kind ofignore it, but, but it's a good data
collector and it informs, and it's reallyup to the individual what you do with it.
I actually liked the aura ring more as akind of a point of collection, but I'm
(15:10):
also the guy who wants to do a lot of pull-ups and barbell work.
So.
Yeah, it's really difficult.
Trust me.
Yeah.
But it's phenomenal.
Like whatever mechanism you're using, likethey're good for collection of your
patterns and kind of learning from that.
I don't remember ever thinking about sleepever.
Like burn the candle at both ends.
(15:31):
I used to be a professional snowboarderand trust me when I say in my twenties,
that discipline did not have physicaltraining recovery.
It had a concept called drink it blue.
which was when you had a photo shoot or avideo shoot the next day and it was cloudy
or snowing out and you'd get drunk as hellto drink the weather blue so that you
(15:52):
could go and hit the jumps and ride thenext day.
Very different world.
But somewhere along the way recoverybecame more important.
For me, it might've been associated withaging, but I think for everyone, like it's
just common.
common knowledge now, which is awesome.
Like, Hey, you got to recover.
You have to put back in.
(16:13):
So on that note, what would you say thebiggest myth is when it comes to sleep?
Like just general misconceptions outthere.
So this idea that you can catch up onsleep to an extent because yes, you can
catch up on sleep if you are a goodsleeper and say have one or two nights of
(16:38):
poor sleep.
The idea being that for every one night ofpoor sleep, you have to have two nights of
really good sleep.
But most people are like,
I think the CDC now estimates over 70 % ofAmericans are chronically sleep deprived,
which means we're constantly shortchangingour sleep by 30 % or more each and every
(17:01):
night.
And so now you're talking about years anddecades to catch up on that.
So this sort of takes the concept ofsaying, Hey, you can sleep when you're
dead.
And if you're not going to sleep, you'regoing to be dead.
And boy, one sounds cooler than the other,but.
Yeah, yeah.
Now I will say, because we've done this inthe military and we're the ones who
(17:24):
actually coined sleep banking.
So prior to anticipated sleep deprivation,if you increase the amount you normally
sleep by an hour to an hour and a half forabout two weeks prior, your rate of
decline during sleep deprivation isslower.
So you're still at some point going todecline, especially about like,
(17:48):
22 and beyond into sleep deprivation butthe slope will be less steep.
So Nathan, note to self, the next time youdecide you're going to raise your hand and
volunteer to go through the SealFit Kokorocamp where you don't sleep for 2 and 1
half days, you want to sleep as much aspossible and almost hibernate beforehand
(18:09):
so that your decline after 24 hours isminimal, but then your decline after 50
hours is, well, you're going to be apuddle.
So did you do the seal fit train up orsomething?
You did?
coach at Mark Devine's SealFit gym.
It's local here in Encinitas.
(18:31):
Mark's an old friend of mine and Glenn,who is bub, Glenn and I were both coaches
at his gym.
And I was one of the only civilian coachesthat he had in the program, helping these
young cadets go through the camp.
But before I could coach it, I had to gothrough it and pass.
that's awesome.
(18:51):
I would love to do it.
Yeah.
or 40 years old and I did a, you know, 55hour, basically a simulated, you know,
Kokoro hell week environment where theyjust kick the living tar out of me.
And I came out the back end of it.
Absolutely a changed person.
(19:11):
It's a phenomenal experience forunderstanding the value of teamwork,
breaking down the individual.
There's so many value points in it.
And.
sleep deprivation was 100 % one of thestrategic stressors added to the
experience to help understand the relianceon team and building and that you just
(19:33):
can't be doing this alone.
Anyone who tried to do it alone peeled offand failed.
But those that could really learn theteamwork dynamic were able to overcome
those individual mountains as a team.
And it was, I mean, I can't recommend itenough for those that really want to see.
what they're made of.
But interestingly, sleep deprivation wasone of the keys.
(19:55):
I went through the camp not knowing thatwe weren't going to sleep.
I had no idea.
Because this was kind of, it wasn't pre-internet.
It wasn't that long ago, but I didn't doany studies on it.
Mark just said, do the camp.
And so I literally walked up, showed upthat day and I'm like, hey guys, where do
we sleep?
And the coaches are like chuckling, like,this guy's, he's in for it.
(20:18):
Yeah.
Well, it's funny you say that becauselike, you know, we sleep deprivation in
the military, especially I argue this islike the rationale in Ranger school for
why you're sleep deprived so long, right?
Is because you're trying to assess andselect the leaders of tomorrow, right?
That's what Ranger school is.
It's leadership school.
(20:39):
And so you really want to find out becausewe find this in the lab all the time.
Like this person can be really nice andnormal.
well -slept conditions and turns into acomplete dickhead under sleep deprivation.
And so that's also part of the assessmentand selection too.
You find out who is selfish and notselfless.
I mean, that's fascinating that I think inits own way, the same things were being
(21:02):
uncovered because you had to value helpingothers and like genuinely being there for
them because you're gaining the strengthfrom that.
And then when you have your moment ofweakness, you've kind of got this deposit
of goodwill from your teammates to helplift you up.
And then there's this mutual booing andanchoring that happens from that.
So.
(21:22):
So the next question is kind of anextension of that.
Like, well, when you, you know, when yousay, we think of the sleep myths, we
covered that, but the most importantthings when it comes to sleep, like, is
there a single thing you can rank if youjust say, Hey, look at this is the number
one thing I want people to have as atakeaway about, about coming to the
subject of sleep.
(21:44):
Yeah, so I think objectively we haveevidence for that now from the wearable
data, right?
Companies like Whoop, and I know they'vereported on this, we've done our own
internal analyses because we are usingwearables now to teach, assess, select our
own formations is sleep timing.
Sleep timing seems to have the biggestimpact on recovery.
(22:06):
So the circadian arm of sleep more thanactual sleep amounts.
So...
This idea if you're flip -flopping yourtime, you go to sleep and then the time
you wake up, you are, even if you sleepeight hours, but you're consistently not
going to bed at the same time, you'restill putting added physiological stress
(22:27):
on the circadian clocks, which is going toimpair and impact your recovery.
Got it.
one of the things I was going to ask aboutwas because I haven't worn a woofer for
probably a year and a half, but I justthrough trial and error figured out like I
would pretty good.
I would get a consistent number of hoursof sleep every night, but my recovery was
(22:49):
always way, way better if I went to bed atwhatever 10 or 1030 every single night.
Like that was actually what my my HRV wasalways better than Sean's.
Don't let him.
He was.
because he's still recovering from theblue skies.
I'm a 100 plus HRV.
(23:11):
OK, I live right hovering around 100.
All Nathan rolls in, he's like, mine's125.
Hahaha!
Well, okay, so here's the thing.
I am mean to put this out.
So I'll go my age first.
I'm 39 almost 40.
Nathan, how old are you?
Okay, and then Sean.
(23:31):
Okay, so Sean is actually doingexceptionally well and better than you,
Nathan, because there is significantdecline.
I showed this at camp.
I don't know if you remember that graph atcamp that shows the decline in HRV.
Mm -hmm.
across age and so like the upper echelonfor John is like around 50 or 60 and upper
(23:57):
echelon for our age group between 35 and40 is around 90.
But you know all things considered yeahsorry I'm sorry.
No, it's fine.
It's just -
is phenomenal because here's what I'mabout to do.
You know, just to make sure Nathan can seethat that's last night's results.
That's a 101.
(24:17):
Let me find this each.
Yeah, that's that's really good.
Yeah.
And I don't know, I just look at this,Nathan, above all, I just see, look at all
that green.
huh.
No, that was like right when I got thewhoop, it was me, Sean, and then the other
founder of bubs TJ, like we all had it andSean, like I remember calling me is like,
(24:39):
what are you doing?
Why?
Why?
I thought I was the HRV guy and now you'rebeating me.
You just walk in.
It's like, I don't know.
Well that's, there you go, he's young.
Yeah, Sean keeps up though.
Like anytime I worked out with Sean, likethe, I do make fun of Sean for being older
(25:00):
than me, but he like, if I, if I'm not onmy game, I'm not winning the workout.
So yeah, but that was, that was gonna beone of my questions about like just the
consistency versus hours and all that.
And then my other big question I wanted toknow is,
I lots of times have a hard time fallingasleep.
(25:22):
And if there is like a secret of and whatI have found for myself is if I imagine
the color black and then I get like andthen I get to where like I'm imagining
that is all I'm focusing on.
Then I try to think of a darker colorblack and then and I repeat that like
three or four times.
I fall asleep.
But sometimes it takes a really long timefor me to like a mat if there's another
(25:45):
thing that I should try or if you havelike a do this.
No, so that is really individual specific.
So some people just need like mentalimagery or I mean there's truth to
counting sheep.
So some mundane task.
Some people just do actively do breathwork and use like the box breathing method
(26:08):
to help fall asleep.
Whatever works for you.
funny the box breathing being a classicMark Devine.
I remember learning the, you know, thefour second in hold four second out hold
four second and like doing it in a bigbox.
So I, you know, I mean, classic like trendof today.
my splurge purchase for 2024 was an icebath and, and I, you know, I use one, I
(26:34):
try and use it almost immediately postexercise.
So this morning I did.
along bike ride, like before, you know,the kids are just waking up.
I go jump on the bike and I'm pedaling itout and I'm ramping, like heart rate,
sustained at like a buck 50 buck 55, getout three minutes in the bath.
And I timed the bath by doing boxbreathing, you know, like, okay, if I do,
(26:55):
you know, 14 box breaths, that's about,you know, two and a half minutes or
whatever.
And then I do another 30 seconds.
Cause by that point I'm at regular breath,but the calming effect of doing that is.
you know, phenomenal, like it just likethe breathing techniques work.
So now another question for you.
jet lag.
(27:16):
Here you you you you you you have asubject that affects anyone traveling, you
know, with more than three four hour timezones.
I'm going to Italy with my wife at the endof September for our 10 year wedding
anniversary.
And thank you, but we get smashed.
Heading over there.
We're not I don't mean drinking.
We don't drink on the flight over maybe alittle champagne, but
(27:38):
We get there.
It's 11 o 'clock in the morning, but it'sreally one o 'clock in the morning in San
Diego.
And we're just delirious.
What are your secrets for that?
So honestly, when you're travelingeastward, I did this in Germany too.
My wife actually came with me to Germanyas well.
It is better.
So again, there's two arms of the system,right?
(27:59):
The circadian arm and the homeostatic arm.
If you oversaturate the homeostatic arm,it will force the circadian arm to get
back on schedule.
So you actually did the best.
jet lag protocol ever, which is to stay upthat whole first day because you're so
exhausted when you go to sleep at nightand you have to wait until after the sun
(28:23):
sets too.
If you do it before the sun sets, you'rescrewed.
But if you wait by an hour to two hoursafter the sun sets, your system
immediately resets.
That is that like taking a red eye toEurope is the best thing you can do.
That's awesome.
So we, we, we did this last year, one yearago.
It was horrible.
(28:43):
We flew to Venice from San Diego.
We slept what we could on the flight getyou.
We land it's like nine in the morning andwe just forced ourselves to go to museums
all day and like just walk around and lookat the art and take in the culture.
And then we had dinner and we made it tobed by like, you know, nine 30, 10 PM.
We just skidded to a halt and we're like,okay, we're crushed, but.
(29:07):
It helped the next day.
And then we had the whole rest of the weekto effectively be on, you know, sunrises
you can kind of engage with.
That's awesome.
well there is a there's an app now thatwill give you like day by day and hour by
hour instructions.
It's called Time Shifter.
So it was actually created by somecolleagues of mine who work for Harvard
(29:29):
because Harvard is like the hub of sleepresearch.
It's always been and it's great like youbasically put in your flight schedules and
it will tell you exactly.
when to sleep, how much to sleep on theplane, when to eat, when to drink, and
then pretty much give you a schedule forthe remainder of the week in terms of when
(29:50):
to do these things.
And that is one of the things Timeshifterwill recommend for Europe is like, okay,
you can take maybe a 20 minute nap once ortwice that next day flying over, but
really just stay up until bedtime.
Yeah, try not to knock yourself out.
I mean, you can go into an incredibly deepsleep at two in the afternoon there and
you're, you're detonating yourself.
(30:12):
day in Germany we were like, we got thislike card game that we had never played
before and we were trying to figure it outand it was super complex.
Well, at the time it was super complex andwe were like, okay, we're done with this.
Like we couldn't remember or retaininformation worth anything, so.
Which is really funny because I wanted toask about that performance element of
(30:35):
sleep and brain.
But before I go there, you're kind oftouching on this.
Safe to assume then that consistency insleep overall, whether you're traveling or
not, the consistency is definitely acentral theme.
Yep, nope, absolutely.
So, I've worked with Olympic teams since2008.
(30:56):
So each Olympic cycle, I tend to work witha team or two.
And then I've been working actually a lotwith the Big Ten teams because you know,
the merge between the Pac -12 and the BigTen.
And that's my one recommendation is tokeep the consistency.
And a lot of that consistency when youtravel comes around.
(31:18):
when the sun sets and sun rises, right?
You want to be in bed after the sun sets,but then be up around the time of sunrise,
even if it's shortchanging your sleep,because that's what's going to reset your
system, ultimately.
That's awesome.
So, and Sean kind of touched on a littlebit of like sleep and you even talked to
(31:38):
that, start over.
You even talked about it a little bit inGermany of like brain performance and just
like cognition.
And why does like, because I feel likethere's also almost a certain point to
where like if you don't sleep, then likeactually maybe there's a little bit more
clarity at the end.
Like what, why is there a correlationbetween sleep and both athletic and
(32:00):
cognitive and I know this is,
We know there is, but what is the sciencebehind that?
So it's all about REM sleep.
So that's the scientists at Harvard,that's what they have found is when you
actively deprive, it can be a human or itcan be a preclinical animal model.
If you deprive both of sleep, you lose theencoding processes in the brain that
(32:23):
encode information so that you can recallit later in time.
Like that system becomes hijacked.
And it's with REM sleep and only REMsleep, because you actually will see this
in people who have...
undiagnosed sleep apnea because one of thediagnoses for sleep apnea is not just
having these hypoxic episodes but alsojust they have really low levels of REM
(32:45):
sleep because by the time they've enteredREM sleep they've woken themselves up
because they're suffocating.
So people who have untreated sleep apneatend to have really poor memories, very
poor recall and the ability to likeconsolidate this information as well.
That is amazing.
So, I mean, key takeaways here, get yoursleep, sleep consistently and create
(33:11):
patterns around sleep.
And then on travel that, that relationshipbetween serotonin and, and forcing it, you
can actually hijack one to put it to workfor the other, to actually kick yourself
into a new time zone.
so forcing yourself, willpower to stayawake longer and.
(33:32):
Like, Hey, there is a true cognitivedecline when you are sleep deprived and
you are losing some of that cognitivefunction.
And I mean, I, I recall this because Imean, one of the hardest things about that
seal fit and Kokoro experience was we hadto memorize not only the seal ethos, but
we had to memorize, a poem.
And it was like, you're in the middle ofthat trying to recount it.
(33:54):
And it's just like, it's like mud workingthrough your brain.
Whereas under typical circumstances, youcan kind of put these pieces together.
And thank God they had us working on thatin the first 12 hours before we were
detonated and not just starting it towardsthe end, because it never would have
happened.
So, so you're working with collegiateathletes, the U S Olympics, Olympic
(34:19):
athletes, as well as being an activemember of the U S armed forces.
Yeah, so a lot of our work within themilitary, we draw from collegiate and
elite athletic communities because if youthink about the lifestyle of an elite
athlete, it's essentially the lifestyle ofan elite soldier, we'll say, where, yeah,
(34:43):
the competing demands of just the pressureto perform, but then the other aspects of
life.
Now,
I will say there's a lot more parallelsbetween an elite soldier and an Olympian
than say an NFL player and an elitesoldier, right?
Because they make lots of money and themoney can drive their schedules and
(35:05):
control over their schedules in ways thatyou don't see exactly with Olympic
athletes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, that is absolutely fascinating.
You literally get to work in one of thecoolest environments to study human
performance.
I do.
I come to work extremely humble andgrateful every day.
(35:27):
I mean, it's true.
I work with some great Americans, peoplewho have done great things for our
country.
And so I try not to forget that every dayI come to work.
I think that I inherently have thediscipline, but even on days where even
myself, I feel myself slacking, I alwayshave them as external motivation.
(35:47):
Yeah, no, it's true.
If you're around some fire breathers,you're around some people that are highly
motivated or have done some great things,it's going to help inform your discipline
and keep you in the fight.
I mean, I think everyone can do that inevery aspect of their lives.
Going back in time, though, I got to askthis question.
So what did you race in college?
You were in track.
(36:09):
so I was a I was a pole vaulter inTorziana, became a heptathlete.
So that was actually a secondary reasonwhy I went to Kent State for grad school,
because I was trying to hope I was tryingto give a shot at making the 2008 Olympic
team.
And at the time, one of the best multievent coaches was at Kent State
(36:30):
University, Bill Lawson.
And so I like.
I stupidly thought I could do a PhD inneuroscience and try to go to Olympic
trials at the same time.
It never happened, but it's okay.
know what though?
I mean, you put it in and you got theneuroscience and that's really the rest of
your career there.
(36:50):
And you've gotten to work with the Olympicteam.
So it's amazing.
Little known fact, my uncle, Peter Palfiwas a professor at Kent State, still is.
And he was in the physics departmentworking on the liquid crystals project.
actually that's it.
That's your uncle.
Yeah, my mom's brother is Peter Palfi.
(37:12):
that's weird.
So I've definitely met him because that'slike a very famous department.
Like Kent State, like that's where theyhad, they have a large endowment because
of the, you know, the benefits of liquidcrystals for all things, technology and
things we have in society, like plasma, TVscreens, things like that.
Yeah.
So we actually, we had a lot of overlapwith the liquid crystal department because
(37:36):
as in the biology department and they wereessentially like merged, all the nerds
worked together.
That's awesome.
I definitely have heard your uncle, I'vemet him and yeah, that's crazy.
thick Hungarian accent, a giant man.
It looks like he should be riding a Harleywith a shaved head and a giant handlebar
mustache and a really neat scientist.
(37:56):
that's so fascinating.
Wow.
It's always such a small world.
So we like to close out the show with acouple of rapid fire questions.
And I'm going to let Nathan lead this offand we're just going to take turns and you
just get to go, go, go.
Okay.
Yeah.
What is your favorite pair of sneakers inyour collection?
(38:17):
my black and gray bands.
Chuggered bands.
So slip ons.
Yeah.
Classic classic.
What is the last book that you read forpleasure?
Not a workbook, not a textbook, but maybeit was because that could be what you, you
know, you enjoy.
that's, the sun also rises.
(38:39):
I'm a huge Chiming Way fan.
nice one.
How many books do you have open at thesame time, or are you a one book warrior?
I have three open at the same time.
Yeah.
And magazines too.
(38:59):
So I subscribe to the New Yorker.
going right now and I feel horrible aboutit.
I just bounced between them and, and Ifeel like the most ADD guy.
I never used to do it, but now I'm like,Kindle, this book bouncing.
Yeah, I have For Whom the Bell Tolls,another Hemingway book, Mapping the
Darkness, which is actually a new bookabout the history of sleep research by my,
(39:23):
it's featuring my mentor from Sleep, Dr.
Mary Karsgaden, and then Forced Bathing.
okay.
There we go.
I feel...
as well.
So.
I feel like a big dummy, but that's okay.
What is a piece of advice you could havereceived at any point in life that you
(39:43):
think about often?
say humility.
I think, you know, at the height of myathletic career.
I feel like I probably could have been alittle bit more humble earlier in my life.
I think I could have learned a lot morefrom speaking less and listening more.
(40:07):
Fair, fair.
I think when you are in an athleticenvironment, though, you're more inclined
to, you got to get after it.
And there is an inherently selfish natureabout achieving human results and
achieving performance.
And sometimes that's an unapologetic worldto achieve those goals and break down
(40:29):
those barriers.
I mean, I'm definitely guilty of it fromthe snowboarding side.
you know, but that's also like you'retrying to see what you're capable of.
And there's a there's a challenge in that.
So yeah, I think that's fair.
And then later in life, I think, yeah, Ican see how humility, the kind of roles in
and plays a different role in how youcommunicate and work with others and
(40:51):
approach in life, which leads to a greatquestion.
I need you to rank these from best toworst.
Kso guac salsa.
that's too easy.
Queso would be at the bottom.
So it's not because I have lactoseintolerance or anything.
(41:12):
I've just never really been a cheeseperson.
Salsa number one, I'm Mediterranean, so Iwas forced early on in life to like
tomatoes and now I love them still.
And then guac would be in the middle.
Okay, fair enough.
I feel like Kso at the bottom, Sean, hasbeen, that's been kind of a constant over
the last few we've asked that too.
(41:33):
hey Leo, come on, we are forced.
with the exception of a couple of NavySEALs in Texas, who kind of, Hey, they
bumped up the ranking.
You've traveled a lot of places.
What is your favorite place that you'vetraveled to?
it doesn't matter no matter where I go inthis country, Costa Rica.
It's, I was recently there for a KaseyClark's wedding of Paramanca Camp.
(41:59):
It was, I was there for a wedding.
It doesn't matter if you go to the coastor you go to the mountain forest.
It doesn't matter.
It's, it's beautiful all around.
Every single part of Costa Rica is pretty.
Do you have, you like coffee, right,Allison?
Okay, I'm gonna.
on my arm.
(42:19):
We have a Costa Rican blend.
Maybe we'll just send that your way afterthis.
So yeah.
I use your cold brew coffee last week oryour instant coffee for sure.
I used that last week.
nice.
Yeah, that's always good on the go.
But I think Nathan's talking about thefresh roasted stuff.
So we'll definitely make sure you gethooked up there.
(42:41):
But last question, and I have a feeling Iknow the answer to this one, given the
subject matter of most of what we'vecovered.
But you might surprise us.
What do you do to relax?
I listen to my record player.
I have a record player right next to mehere and I am a Swifty.
(43:02):
So is my daughter, so is my wife, I getit.
What's on there?
Is it a Swift album that's on there rightnow?
perfect.
Yeah.
That is so good.
I absolutely love that.
I thought you were just gonna say, well, Isleep obviously.
So, no, I come home and I put on therecord player.
I do got Johnny Cash, you know, SanQuentin Prison album, and then I have the
(43:28):
Pink Floyd, you know, classic Dirk Side ofthe Moon, but yeah.
those, I mean, the absolutely amazingones.
Well, listen, thank you for joining ustoday, Allison.
And if people want to learn more about youand what you're doing, where can they find
you and your book?
So book Meathead Unraveling the AthleticBrain, easiest way is Amazon.
(43:52):
And then Instagram.
So I don't tweet.
I don't actually ever really use LinkedIn.
I already have a job.
I'm not looking for a job.
So my Instagram handle is docjoczzz.
So docjoczzz.
And there's no numbers in it.
(44:13):
So I say that because I do have animposter who I've been trying to get rid
of, but it hasn't worked yet.
Good, good, yes, I appreciate it.
and yeah, we'll make sure to throw a linkto the book and a link to your Instagram
in the description of the show andeverything.
So cool.
And guys, yeah, we're wrapping it upthere.
(44:34):
So Allison, thank you for being here.
And then guys, thank you for listening.
You can find the Cult of Recreationalismon all podcasting services.
And don't forget to check us out onYouTube or our social media.
Just look up Bubs Naturals and you'll findus.
And leave a thumbs up, drop a like.
(44:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's good to see you again until fall.
This is great.
I really appreciate it.
And listen, I know there's a whole.
coming from.
No, you should just stay that close thewhole time.
Just stay right up in there.
I get coached by this guy all the time onwhere I'm supposed to position myself, how
I'm supposed to look, and all the things,so.
For the first couple, he was like downhere, like on the screen for it.
And I was like, let's move you up.
So a little more proportion.
(00:20):
think where I am, I don't know if youlike, if it's, you know.
Yeah, cool.
Sean, let me know when you're ready.
And then, cool.
So Allison, Sean is going to kind of introit, and then I'll go into it after that.
Sweet.
Also, Sean is going to have to leave.
(00:40):
He has to take, he has dad duty tonight.
So.
have 40 minutes.
So like, I'll take this as far as we can.
At some point, I'm going to make areference to needing to get to work on my
recovery.
And then I'll use that as my excuse to gotake a nap and sign off.
Okay, perfect.
That's fine, yeah.
(01:03):
Okay, yeah, I'm only like, because of theFBI, so.
There we go.
Alright, so I'm gonna play this thing andthen Sean will hit it.
What's everybody?
Wow, that was a great start.
(01:23):
What's up, everybody?
And welcome to the Cult of Recreationalismpodcast.
I am your host, Sean Lake, along withNathan Morris.
And today on the show, we've got Dr.
Allison Breger.
Allison is, or I should say, Dr.
Breger is a neurobiologist, a four -yearvarsity letterman at Brown University for
(01:45):
track.
In other words, she's faster than you are.
a current enlisted American soldier, aCrossFit Games athlete.
So now she's faster than you and stronger.
She's also an author of an epic bookcalled Meathead, Unraveling the Athletic
Brain.
(02:05):
She's an expert on sleep and circadianrhythms, which is what we're here to dig
into today.
Welcome, Allison.
Hey, it's nice to be here to see you bothagain.
Yeah, I was telling Sean the last time Ihung out with you it was in a minivan in
Tennessee and you were emailing militaryofficials and you were about to fly to
(02:28):
Germany.
And you've been like...
trip to the five -star building firstbefore Germany, but yeah.
We'd like to be invited to that meeting iffor no other reason than to shake hands
and offer some great supplements.
But we'll save that for another time.
(02:50):
Yeah, and so Allison, I put together alist because I hadn't really spoken with
you prior to that, and so I starteddigging.
And so your LinkedIn page, your place ofemployment is the US Special Operations
Command headquarters.
Can you tell us and the audience what thatmeans?
(03:14):
So essentially I work for, I support in ascientific capacity, I support special
operations.
So special operations were tipped with thespear in terms of expertise and they bring
together the best and brightest from alldifferent areas to help support their
military missions.
(03:35):
And so I provide that support as ascientist.
you.
And then your role is Ghost Fellow, whichis a really cool job title.
Yeah, so it actually dates back to WorldWar II.
There's this platoon called the GhostPlatoon where they basically had these
(03:56):
inflatable tanks to act as a form ofdeterrence in disguise for adversaries.
And then when the Germans went up to thesetanks, they saw that they were
inoperational.
So.
It's this idea really of pushing forwardthe best technology to help us with our
(04:18):
myriad of clandestine operations.
That's interesting.
I've never, I want to go down that rabbithole too.
Learn more about that.
could be an entire conversation becausethat takes on so many elements of human
performance, technology and innovation.
I mean, I imagine you're looking reallyacross the board at a lot of those.
(04:42):
Yeah, I mean, so, you know, our number onespecial operations truth is humans are
more important than hardware.
And so with every type of new technologysystem we're building in tandem, we think
about the human operator and can he or shewithstand operating this system in as, you
know, extreme of an environment aspossible.
(05:05):
And if not, how do we...
implement these safeguards and safetyprocedures so that we're keeping our human
operators safe and also helping themperform to their best when they're
struggling some.
(05:25):
It's funny, we at bubs have I mean, not toside shoot, but like we're talking about
our hydration product internally a lotright now.
And I have a side conversation going aboutwhich magnesium we should be adding to an
electrolyte to get the best results.
And I think of it exclusively through thelens of human performance.
(05:47):
So I'm thinking of this product calledMagteen, which is a magnesium L3 and
eight.
And
It's not in a very large amount.
It's, you know, 60, 70 milligrams perserving.
But why do a magnesium citrate if itreally isn't going to help improve human
performance and even 60, 70 milligrams ofthe other stuff could give just a little
(06:10):
nudge.
And I just, I like the little nudges thatall add up together to be a big nudge.
Yeah, no, that is actually a hugedifference.
So it actually, I mean, I know a littlebit about this.
It goes a little bit back to basicbiochemistry that we, you know, either
took appreciation for in 10th grade ordidn't take appreciation for in 10th
(06:30):
grade.
And it actually goes back to the likestructural placement of the carbon and the
hydrogen atoms on.
the actual organic molecule in terms of,it's called a Fischer projection, like are
they facing to the left or are they facingto the right?
And believe it or not, that difference ofwhere the carbon atoms are and the
(06:53):
hydrogen atoms are on the left or theright makes a difference in terms of how
the body absorbs that substance and thenit also can influence like downstream
physiology.
So.
Without getting too deep into the weeds,like for example, we know powders are more
effective than pills because a powder willincrease bioavailability versus a pill.
(07:19):
And then also too, with a powder, sincethere's typically carbonate, biocarbonate
attached to that, the biocarbonateslightly increases carbon dioxide levels
in the blood, which sounds like a badthing.
but it's not because the brain, you know,we think about magnesium as a sleep
(07:42):
promoting substance now, right, as part ofthe sleep formulary.
Well, the brain, anytime there's anincrease in carbon dioxide levels or
detection in the blood, the brain'simmediate response is to be in a state of
sleep or to shut down certain processes.
(08:03):
So,
I'm not saying this is like a toxic,harmful, damaging effect.
I'm just saying that increased CO2 in theblood can possibly have a sleep promoting
effect.
I mean, we know from a few clinical trialsthat magnesium does promote sleep and
improve sleep quality.
(08:24):
Mechanism of action is yet to bedetermined, but just talking to a few
chemists and biochemists I know, that'stheir...
hypothesized mechanism of action eventhough it hasn't formally been assessed
yet in a randomized control trial.
Wow.
I mean, neat stuff.
My key takeaway from that as the guy whoflagged out on chemistry in the 10th grade
(08:47):
is if I can put magnesium L3 and 8 inthere, do it.
That's what I heard.
So thank you for that.
I appreciate that tip.
Now, this is going to kind of lead backinto that.
But on LinkedIn, you're endorsed forimmunohistochemistry.
(09:09):
What is that?
So prior to doing human work, I used to doa lot of animal work to look at
identifying what genetic factors,biological factors influence sleep.
And so in order to determine if, forexample, a drug that is going through
(09:32):
clinical drug trials has an impact onsleep and wake systems in the brains of
animals, you can look for neuronalmarkers.
After the animal is, we use the termsacrificed.
That's like the PC term for it.
So basically, immunohistochemistry islooking at sections of their brain,
(09:56):
staining their brain for a specificchemical.
And this chemical, how it is stained isthrough manipulating the immune system.
So essentially antibodies.
And that's what immunohistochemistry is.
It's a process of detecting differentprotein factors and the expression of
(10:18):
different biological factors in a specificbrain area.
So Nathan note to self, a lot of goats, alot of goats, a lot of rats, little mice,
a couple of goats.
All good.
mostly hamsters.
So hamsters are actually one of the bestmodels for the endocrine system in
circadian rhythms because they have veryrobust expression of their endocrine
(10:45):
patterns and their patterns do changeacross seasons.
And it's also very sensitive to changes inthe light -dark schedule.
So that's why circadian biologists andreproductive endocrinologists love using
hamsters as an animal model.
And then we did a lot of mice too, becausethat's one of the many species you can
manipulate their genome.
(11:06):
So a lot of our studies, we would actuallymanipulate the genetic expression of
certain factors and create mice forcertain traits based on those genetics.
I like to think of my early research asthe guy from South Park, remember?
Professor Mifonzo, who created like the...
(11:27):
the Siamese pigs and the Siamese monkeysand all that.
That's, yeah.
thank you because like, this is this, youjust made everything more human because
before that I was like, this is flying sofar over my head, but thank God this is
South Park reference in here.
You just anchored us back to where mybrain lives.
It's that and then pizza french fries.
(11:49):
Exactly.
There is a South Park reference foreverything.
and so you obviously like you've beentalking a little bit about circadian
rhythms and all that kind of stuff.
Like your specialty is sleep, correct?
My specialty is actually circadian rhythmsbecause when it comes to sleep, there's a
circadian component and there's somethingcalled a homeostatic component, which
(12:12):
basically means like for as long as you'reawake, the drive to sleep increases.
I sort of look at the interaction betweenboth now because in the military, we do a
lot of not just night operations, we do alot of sustained wakefulness for very long
periods of time.
But my bread and butter is reallycircadian rhythms.
And so what drove that?
(12:33):
Was there like a certain point in yourlife where like, I wanna learn more about
this because this just happened to me?
Or how did you get into that?
So there actually is a story behind this.
I...
I had a gymnastics coach who once told meto always plan your career around your
lifestyle and not your lifestyle aroundyour career.
(12:56):
So she's like, you really want a careerthat is a lifestyle because that's the
only way you'll be happy and the only wayyou'll come to work appreciating what you
do and you're less likely to burn out.
So towards the end of college, I knew Iwanted to do neuroscience and I knew I
wanted to be a scientist.
(13:16):
And so I just started thinking one day, Iwas like, well, I love, you know, the
world of athletics and exercise.
So if I want to be a scientist, I want tobe a scientist who studies exercise.
I also appreciate the importance of sleepbecause truly I think being a good sleeper
and having the discipline to get as muchsleep as possible as early on as middle
(13:42):
school is why I flourished as a two sportathlete.
And then I was a -
the valedictorian of my very large highschool as well in high school and then
continued that onwards in college.
So sleep was important for me for thatreason, for human performance.
And then, you know, I was like, well, Ilove neuroscience and neurochemistry.
(14:03):
So, you know, I love all research aroundserotonin, right?
Because serotonin is the basis of whatmakes you love and crave exercise.
And it's also part of sleep.
So I literally will.
for the world's expert who had somehowconverged serotonin, exercise and sleep
together.
And it turns out this individual is Dr.
(14:23):
Dave Glass at Kent State University.
He's now retired, but he studied this inanimal model.
So he essentially looked at how the timingof exercise influenced sleep and wake
rhythms.
And it's through the release and secretionof serotonin within very specific areas of
the body.
So that's how I got to where I am today.
(14:45):
That's wild.
So, so this actually kind of leads into aquestion I was going to have, which is
like, you know, I wear a whoop strap.
I have been reading.
Yeah.
I mean, I mean, I, I don't live and die byit.
In fact, I try and purposely kind ofignore it, but, but it's a good data
collector and it informs, and it's reallyup to the individual what you do with it.
I actually liked the aura ring more as akind of a point of collection, but I'm
(15:10):
also the guy who wants to do a lot of pull-ups and barbell work.
So.
Yeah, it's really difficult.
Trust me.
Yeah.
But it's phenomenal.
Like whatever mechanism you're using, likethey're good for collection of your
patterns and kind of learning from that.
I don't remember ever thinking about sleepever.
Like burn the candle at both ends.
(15:31):
I used to be a professional snowboarderand trust me when I say in my twenties,
that discipline did not have physicaltraining recovery.
It had a concept called drink it blue.
which was when you had a photo shoot or avideo shoot the next day and it was cloudy
or snowing out and you'd get drunk as hellto drink the weather blue so that you
(15:52):
could go and hit the jumps and ride thenext day.
Very different world.
But somewhere along the way recoverybecame more important.
For me, it might've been associated withaging, but I think for everyone, like it's
just common.
common knowledge now, which is awesome.
Like, Hey, you got to recover.
You have to put back in.
(16:13):
So on that note, what would you say thebiggest myth is when it comes to sleep?
Like just general misconceptions outthere.
So this idea that you can catch up onsleep to an extent because yes, you can
catch up on sleep if you are a goodsleeper and say have one or two nights of
(16:38):
poor sleep.
The idea being that for every one night ofpoor sleep, you have to have two nights of
really good sleep.
But most people are like,
I think the CDC now estimates over 70 % ofAmericans are chronically sleep deprived,
which means we're constantly shortchangingour sleep by 30 % or more each and every
(17:01):
night.
And so now you're talking about years anddecades to catch up on that.
So this sort of takes the concept ofsaying, Hey, you can sleep when you're
dead.
And if you're not going to sleep, you'regoing to be dead.
And boy, one sounds cooler than the other,but.
Yeah, yeah.
Now I will say, because we've done this inthe military and we're the ones who
(17:24):
actually coined sleep banking.
So prior to anticipated sleep deprivation,if you increase the amount you normally
sleep by an hour to an hour and a half forabout two weeks prior, your rate of
decline during sleep deprivation isslower.
So you're still at some point going todecline, especially about like,
(17:48):
22 and beyond into sleep deprivation butthe slope will be less steep.
So Nathan, note to self, the next time youdecide you're going to raise your hand and
volunteer to go through the SealFit Kokorocamp where you don't sleep for 2 and 1
half days, you want to sleep as much aspossible and almost hibernate beforehand
(18:09):
so that your decline after 24 hours isminimal, but then your decline after 50
hours is, well, you're going to be apuddle.
So did you do the seal fit train up orsomething?
You did?
coach at Mark Devine's SealFit gym.
It's local here in Encinitas.
(18:31):
Mark's an old friend of mine and Glenn,who is bub, Glenn and I were both coaches
at his gym.
And I was one of the only civilian coachesthat he had in the program, helping these
young cadets go through the camp.
But before I could coach it, I had to gothrough it and pass.
that's awesome.
(18:51):
I would love to do it.
Yeah.
or 40 years old and I did a, you know, 55hour, basically a simulated, you know,
Kokoro hell week environment where theyjust kick the living tar out of me.
And I came out the back end of it.
Absolutely a changed person.
(19:11):
It's a phenomenal experience forunderstanding the value of teamwork,
breaking down the individual.
There's so many value points in it.
And.
sleep deprivation was 100 % one of thestrategic stressors added to the
experience to help understand the relianceon team and building and that you just
(19:33):
can't be doing this alone.
Anyone who tried to do it alone peeled offand failed.
But those that could really learn theteamwork dynamic were able to overcome
those individual mountains as a team.
And it was, I mean, I can't recommend itenough for those that really want to see.
what they're made of.
But interestingly, sleep deprivation wasone of the keys.
(19:55):
I went through the camp not knowing thatwe weren't going to sleep.
I had no idea.
Because this was kind of, it wasn't pre-internet.
It wasn't that long ago, but I didn't doany studies on it.
Mark just said, do the camp.
And so I literally walked up, showed upthat day and I'm like, hey guys, where do
we sleep?
And the coaches are like chuckling, like,this guy's, he's in for it.
(20:18):
Yeah.
Well, it's funny you say that becauselike, you know, we sleep deprivation in
the military, especially I argue this islike the rationale in Ranger school for
why you're sleep deprived so long, right?
Is because you're trying to assess andselect the leaders of tomorrow, right?
That's what Ranger school is.
It's leadership school.
(20:39):
And so you really want to find out becausewe find this in the lab all the time.
Like this person can be really nice andnormal.
well -slept conditions and turns into acomplete dickhead under sleep deprivation.
And so that's also part of the assessmentand selection too.
You find out who is selfish and notselfless.
I mean, that's fascinating that I think inits own way, the same things were being
(21:02):
uncovered because you had to value helpingothers and like genuinely being there for
them because you're gaining the strengthfrom that.
And then when you have your moment ofweakness, you've kind of got this deposit
of goodwill from your teammates to helplift you up.
And then there's this mutual booing andanchoring that happens from that.
So.
(21:22):
So the next question is kind of anextension of that.
Like, well, when you, you know, when yousay, we think of the sleep myths, we
covered that, but the most importantthings when it comes to sleep, like, is
there a single thing you can rank if youjust say, Hey, look at this is the number
one thing I want people to have as atakeaway about, about coming to the
subject of sleep.
(21:44):
Yeah, so I think objectively we haveevidence for that now from the wearable
data, right?
Companies like Whoop, and I know they'vereported on this, we've done our own
internal analyses because we are usingwearables now to teach, assess, select our
own formations is sleep timing.
Sleep timing seems to have the biggestimpact on recovery.
(22:06):
So the circadian arm of sleep more thanactual sleep amounts.
So...
This idea if you're flip -flopping yourtime, you go to sleep and then the time
you wake up, you are, even if you sleepeight hours, but you're consistently not
going to bed at the same time, you'restill putting added physiological stress
(22:27):
on the circadian clocks, which is going toimpair and impact your recovery.
Got it.
one of the things I was going to ask aboutwas because I haven't worn a woofer for
probably a year and a half, but I justthrough trial and error figured out like I
would pretty good.
I would get a consistent number of hoursof sleep every night, but my recovery was
(22:49):
always way, way better if I went to bed atwhatever 10 or 1030 every single night.
Like that was actually what my my HRV wasalways better than Sean's.
Don't let him.
He was.
because he's still recovering from theblue skies.
I'm a 100 plus HRV.
(23:11):
OK, I live right hovering around 100.
All Nathan rolls in, he's like, mine's125.
Hahaha!
Well, okay, so here's the thing.
I am mean to put this out.
So I'll go my age first.
I'm 39 almost 40.
Nathan, how old are you?
Okay, and then Sean.
(23:31):
Okay, so Sean is actually doingexceptionally well and better than you,
Nathan, because there is significantdecline.
I showed this at camp.
I don't know if you remember that graph atcamp that shows the decline in HRV.
Mm -hmm.
across age and so like the upper echelonfor John is like around 50 or 60 and upper
(23:57):
echelon for our age group between 35 and40 is around 90.
But you know all things considered yeahsorry I'm sorry.
No, it's fine.
It's just -
is phenomenal because here's what I'mabout to do.
You know, just to make sure Nathan can seethat that's last night's results.
That's a 101.
(24:17):
Let me find this each.
Yeah, that's that's really good.
Yeah.
And I don't know, I just look at this,Nathan, above all, I just see, look at all
that green.
huh.
No, that was like right when I got thewhoop, it was me, Sean, and then the other
founder of bubs TJ, like we all had it andSean, like I remember calling me is like,
(24:39):
what are you doing?
Why?
Why?
I thought I was the HRV guy and now you'rebeating me.
You just walk in.
It's like, I don't know.
Well that's, there you go, he's young.
Yeah, Sean keeps up though.
Like anytime I worked out with Sean, likethe, I do make fun of Sean for being older
(25:00):
than me, but he like, if I, if I'm not onmy game, I'm not winning the workout.
So yeah, but that was, that was gonna beone of my questions about like just the
consistency versus hours and all that.
And then my other big question I wanted toknow is,
I lots of times have a hard time fallingasleep.
(25:22):
And if there is like a secret of and whatI have found for myself is if I imagine
the color black and then I get like andthen I get to where like I'm imagining
that is all I'm focusing on.
Then I try to think of a darker colorblack and then and I repeat that like
three or four times.
I fall asleep.
But sometimes it takes a really long timefor me to like a mat if there's another
(25:45):
thing that I should try or if you havelike a do this.
No, so that is really individual specific.
So some people just need like mentalimagery or I mean there's truth to
counting sheep.
So some mundane task.
Some people just do actively do breathwork and use like the box breathing method
(26:08):
to help fall asleep.
Whatever works for you.
funny the box breathing being a classicMark Devine.
I remember learning the, you know, thefour second in hold four second out hold
four second and like doing it in a bigbox.
So I, you know, I mean, classic like trendof today.
my splurge purchase for 2024 was an icebath and, and I, you know, I use one, I
(26:34):
try and use it almost immediately postexercise.
So this morning I did.
along bike ride, like before, you know,the kids are just waking up.
I go jump on the bike and I'm pedaling itout and I'm ramping, like heart rate,
sustained at like a buck 50 buck 55, getout three minutes in the bath.
And I timed the bath by doing boxbreathing, you know, like, okay, if I do,
(26:55):
you know, 14 box breaths, that's about,you know, two and a half minutes or
whatever.
And then I do another 30 seconds.
Cause by that point I'm at regular breath,but the calming effect of doing that is.
you know, phenomenal, like it just likethe breathing techniques work.
So now another question for you.
jet lag.
(27:16):
Here you you you you you you have asubject that affects anyone traveling, you
know, with more than three four hour timezones.
I'm going to Italy with my wife at the endof September for our 10 year wedding
anniversary.
And thank you, but we get smashed.
Heading over there.
We're not I don't mean drinking.
We don't drink on the flight over maybe alittle champagne, but
(27:38):
We get there.
It's 11 o 'clock in the morning, but it'sreally one o 'clock in the morning in San
Diego.
And we're just delirious.
What are your secrets for that?
So honestly, when you're travelingeastward, I did this in Germany too.
My wife actually came with me to Germanyas well.
It is better.
So again, there's two arms of the system,right?
(27:59):
The circadian arm and the homeostatic arm.
If you oversaturate the homeostatic arm,it will force the circadian arm to get
back on schedule.
So you actually did the best.
jet lag protocol ever, which is to stay upthat whole first day because you're so
exhausted when you go to sleep at nightand you have to wait until after the sun
(28:23):
sets too.
If you do it before the sun sets, you'rescrewed.
But if you wait by an hour to two hoursafter the sun sets, your system
immediately resets.
That is that like taking a red eye toEurope is the best thing you can do.
That's awesome.
So we, we, we did this last year, one yearago.
It was horrible.
(28:43):
We flew to Venice from San Diego.
We slept what we could on the flight getyou.
We land it's like nine in the morning andwe just forced ourselves to go to museums
all day and like just walk around and lookat the art and take in the culture.
And then we had dinner and we made it tobed by like, you know, nine 30, 10 PM.
We just skidded to a halt and we're like,okay, we're crushed, but.
(29:07):
It helped the next day.
And then we had the whole rest of the weekto effectively be on, you know, sunrises
you can kind of engage with.
That's awesome.
well there is a there's an app now thatwill give you like day by day and hour by
hour instructions.
It's called Time Shifter.
So it was actually created by somecolleagues of mine who work for Harvard
(29:29):
because Harvard is like the hub of sleepresearch.
It's always been and it's great like youbasically put in your flight schedules and
it will tell you exactly.
when to sleep, how much to sleep on theplane, when to eat, when to drink, and
then pretty much give you a schedule forthe remainder of the week in terms of when
(29:50):
to do these things.
And that is one of the things Timeshifterwill recommend for Europe is like, okay,
you can take maybe a 20 minute nap once ortwice that next day flying over, but
really just stay up until bedtime.
Yeah, try not to knock yourself out.
I mean, you can go into an incredibly deepsleep at two in the afternoon there and
you're, you're detonating yourself.
(30:12):
day in Germany we were like, we got thislike card game that we had never played
before and we were trying to figure it outand it was super complex.
Well, at the time it was super complex andwe were like, okay, we're done with this.
Like we couldn't remember or retaininformation worth anything, so.
Which is really funny because I wanted toask about that performance element of
(30:35):
sleep and brain.
But before I go there, you're kind oftouching on this.
Safe to assume then that consistency insleep overall, whether you're traveling or
not, the consistency is definitely acentral theme.
Yep, nope, absolutely.
So, I've worked with Olympic teams since2008.
(30:56):
So each Olympic cycle, I tend to work witha team or two.
And then I've been working actually a lotwith the Big Ten teams because you know,
the merge between the Pac -12 and the BigTen.
And that's my one recommendation is tokeep the consistency.
And a lot of that consistency when youtravel comes around.
(31:18):
when the sun sets and sun rises, right?
You want to be in bed after the sun sets,but then be up around the time of sunrise,
even if it's shortchanging your sleep,because that's what's going to reset your
system, ultimately.
That's awesome.
So, and Sean kind of touched on a littlebit of like sleep and you even talked to
(31:38):
that, start over.
You even talked about it a little bit inGermany of like brain performance and just
like cognition.
And why does like, because I feel likethere's also almost a certain point to
where like if you don't sleep, then likeactually maybe there's a little bit more
clarity at the end.
Like what, why is there a correlationbetween sleep and both athletic and
(32:00):
cognitive and I know this is,
We know there is, but what is the sciencebehind that?
So it's all about REM sleep.
So that's the scientists at Harvard,that's what they have found is when you
actively deprive, it can be a human or itcan be a preclinical animal model.
If you deprive both of sleep, you lose theencoding processes in the brain that
(32:23):
encode information so that you can recallit later in time.
Like that system becomes hijacked.
And it's with REM sleep and only REMsleep, because you actually will see this
in people who have...
undiagnosed sleep apnea because one of thediagnoses for sleep apnea is not just
having these hypoxic episodes but alsojust they have really low levels of REM
(32:45):
sleep because by the time they've enteredREM sleep they've woken themselves up
because they're suffocating.
So people who have untreated sleep apneatend to have really poor memories, very
poor recall and the ability to likeconsolidate this information as well.
That is amazing.
So, I mean, key takeaways here, get yoursleep, sleep consistently and create
(33:11):
patterns around sleep.
And then on travel that, that relationshipbetween serotonin and, and forcing it, you
can actually hijack one to put it to workfor the other, to actually kick yourself
into a new time zone.
so forcing yourself, willpower to stayawake longer and.
(33:32):
Like, Hey, there is a true cognitivedecline when you are sleep deprived and
you are losing some of that cognitivefunction.
And I mean, I, I recall this because Imean, one of the hardest things about that
seal fit and Kokoro experience was we hadto memorize not only the seal ethos, but
we had to memorize, a poem.
And it was like, you're in the middle ofthat trying to recount it.
(33:54):
And it's just like, it's like mud workingthrough your brain.
Whereas under typical circumstances, youcan kind of put these pieces together.
And thank God they had us working on thatin the first 12 hours before we were
detonated and not just starting it towardsthe end, because it never would have
happened.
So, so you're working with collegiateathletes, the U S Olympics, Olympic
(34:19):
athletes, as well as being an activemember of the U S armed forces.
Yeah, so a lot of our work within themilitary, we draw from collegiate and
elite athletic communities because if youthink about the lifestyle of an elite
athlete, it's essentially the lifestyle ofan elite soldier, we'll say, where, yeah,
(34:43):
the competing demands of just the pressureto perform, but then the other aspects of
life.
Now,
I will say there's a lot more parallelsbetween an elite soldier and an Olympian
than say an NFL player and an elitesoldier, right?
Because they make lots of money and themoney can drive their schedules and
(35:05):
control over their schedules in ways thatyou don't see exactly with Olympic
athletes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, that is absolutely fascinating.
You literally get to work in one of thecoolest environments to study human
performance.
I do.
I come to work extremely humble andgrateful every day.
(35:27):
I mean, it's true.
I work with some great Americans, peoplewho have done great things for our
country.
And so I try not to forget that every dayI come to work.
I think that I inherently have thediscipline, but even on days where even
myself, I feel myself slacking, I alwayshave them as external motivation.
(35:47):
Yeah, no, it's true.
If you're around some fire breathers,you're around some people that are highly
motivated or have done some great things,it's going to help inform your discipline
and keep you in the fight.
I mean, I think everyone can do that inevery aspect of their lives.
Going back in time, though, I got to askthis question.
So what did you race in college?
You were in track.
(36:09):
so I was a I was a pole vaulter inTorziana, became a heptathlete.
So that was actually a secondary reasonwhy I went to Kent State for grad school,
because I was trying to hope I was tryingto give a shot at making the 2008 Olympic
team.
And at the time, one of the best multievent coaches was at Kent State
(36:30):
University, Bill Lawson.
And so I like.
I stupidly thought I could do a PhD inneuroscience and try to go to Olympic
trials at the same time.
It never happened, but it's okay.
know what though?
I mean, you put it in and you got theneuroscience and that's really the rest of
your career there.
(36:50):
And you've gotten to work with the Olympicteam.
So it's amazing.
Little known fact, my uncle, Peter Palfiwas a professor at Kent State, still is.
And he was in the physics departmentworking on the liquid crystals project.
actually that's it.
That's your uncle.
Yeah, my mom's brother is Peter Palfi.
(37:12):
that's weird.
So I've definitely met him because that'slike a very famous department.
Like Kent State, like that's where theyhad, they have a large endowment because
of the, you know, the benefits of liquidcrystals for all things, technology and
things we have in society, like plasma, TVscreens, things like that.
Yeah.
So we actually, we had a lot of overlapwith the liquid crystal department because
(37:36):
as in the biology department and they wereessentially like merged, all the nerds
worked together.
That's awesome.
I definitely have heard your uncle, I'vemet him and yeah, that's crazy.
thick Hungarian accent, a giant man.
It looks like he should be riding a Harleywith a shaved head and a giant handlebar
mustache and a really neat scientist.
(37:56):
that's so fascinating.
Wow.
It's always such a small world.
So we like to close out the show with acouple of rapid fire questions.
And I'm going to let Nathan lead this offand we're just going to take turns and you
just get to go, go, go.
Okay.
Yeah.
What is your favorite pair of sneakers inyour collection?
(38:17):
my black and gray bands.
Chuggered bands.
So slip ons.
Yeah.
Classic classic.
What is the last book that you read forpleasure?
Not a workbook, not a textbook, but maybeit was because that could be what you, you
know, you enjoy.
that's, the sun also rises.
(38:39):
I'm a huge Chiming Way fan.
nice one.
How many books do you have open at thesame time, or are you a one book warrior?
I have three open at the same time.
Yeah.
And magazines too.
(38:59):
So I subscribe to the New Yorker.
going right now and I feel horrible aboutit.
I just bounced between them and, and Ifeel like the most ADD guy.
I never used to do it, but now I'm like,Kindle, this book bouncing.
Yeah, I have For Whom the Bell Tolls,another Hemingway book, Mapping the
Darkness, which is actually a new bookabout the history of sleep research by my,
(39:23):
it's featuring my mentor from Sleep, Dr.
Mary Karsgaden, and then Forced Bathing.
okay.
There we go.
I feel...
as well.
So.
I feel like a big dummy, but that's okay.
What is a piece of advice you could havereceived at any point in life that you
(39:43):
think about often?
say humility.
I think, you know, at the height of myathletic career.
I feel like I probably could have been alittle bit more humble earlier in my life.
I think I could have learned a lot morefrom speaking less and listening more.
(40:07):
Fair, fair.
I think when you are in an athleticenvironment, though, you're more inclined
to, you got to get after it.
And there is an inherently selfish natureabout achieving human results and
achieving performance.
And sometimes that's an unapologetic worldto achieve those goals and break down
(40:29):
those barriers.
I mean, I'm definitely guilty of it fromthe snowboarding side.
you know, but that's also like you'retrying to see what you're capable of.
And there's a there's a challenge in that.
So yeah, I think that's fair.
And then later in life, I think, yeah, Ican see how humility, the kind of roles in
and plays a different role in how youcommunicate and work with others and
(40:51):
approach in life, which leads to a greatquestion.
I need you to rank these from best toworst.
Kso guac salsa.
that's too easy.
Queso would be at the bottom.
So it's not because I have lactoseintolerance or anything.
(41:12):
I've just never really been a cheeseperson.
Salsa number one, I'm Mediterranean, so Iwas forced early on in life to like
tomatoes and now I love them still.
And then guac would be in the middle.
Okay, fair enough.
I feel like Kso at the bottom, Sean, hasbeen, that's been kind of a constant over
the last few we've asked that too.
(41:33):
hey Leo, come on, we are forced.
with the exception of a couple of NavySEALs in Texas, who kind of, Hey, they
bumped up the ranking.
You've traveled a lot of places.
What is your favorite place that you'vetraveled to?
it doesn't matter no matter where I go inthis country, Costa Rica.
It's, I was recently there for a KaseyClark's wedding of Paramanca Camp.
(41:59):
It was, I was there for a wedding.
It doesn't matter if you go to the coastor you go to the mountain forest.
It doesn't matter.
It's, it's beautiful all around.
Every single part of Costa Rica is pretty.
Do you have, you like coffee, right,Allison?
Okay, I'm gonna.
on my arm.
(42:19):
We have a Costa Rican blend.
Maybe we'll just send that your way afterthis.
So yeah.
I use your cold brew coffee last week oryour instant coffee for sure.
I used that last week.
nice.
Yeah, that's always good on the go.
But I think Nathan's talking about thefresh roasted stuff.
So we'll definitely make sure you gethooked up there.
(42:41):
But last question, and I have a feeling Iknow the answer to this one, given the
subject matter of most of what we'vecovered.
But you might surprise us.
What do you do to relax?
I listen to my record player.
I have a record player right next to mehere and I am a Swifty.
(43:02):
So is my daughter, so is my wife, I getit.
What's on there?
Is it a Swift album that's on there rightnow?
perfect.
Yeah.
That is so good.
I absolutely love that.
I thought you were just gonna say, well, Isleep obviously.
So, no, I come home and I put on therecord player.
I do got Johnny Cash, you know, SanQuentin Prison album, and then I have the
(43:28):
Pink Floyd, you know, classic Dirk Side ofthe Moon, but yeah.
those, I mean, the absolutely amazingones.
Well, listen, thank you for joining ustoday, Allison.
And if people want to learn more about youand what you're doing, where can they find
you and your book?
So book Meathead Unraveling the AthleticBrain, easiest way is Amazon.
(43:52):
And then Instagram.
So I don't tweet.
I don't actually ever really use LinkedIn.
I already have a job.
I'm not looking for a job.
So my Instagram handle is docjoczzz.
So docjoczzz.
And there's no numbers in it.
(44:13):
So I say that because I do have animposter who I've been trying to get rid
of, but it hasn't worked yet.
Good, good, yes, I appreciate it.
and yeah, we'll make sure to throw a linkto the book and a link to your Instagram
in the description of the show andeverything.
So cool.
And guys, yeah, we're wrapping it upthere.
(44:34):
So Allison, thank you for being here.
And then guys, thank you for listening.
You can find the Cult of Recreationalismon all podcasting services.
And don't forget to check us out onYouTube or our social media.
Just look up Bubs Naturals and you'll findus.
And leave a thumbs up, drop a like.
(44:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's good to see you again until fall.
This is great.
I really appreciate it.
And listen, I know there's a whole.
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