July 25, 2023 • 46 mins
It's the customer's perception of their experience with a company that matters. And in particular, the customer's perception of their ability to obtain business value.
Customers are quick to switch to other brands, to competitors, that they feel are going to be easier to do business with and get them to business value faster. We talk with Andrew Carothers, Digital Experience Leader at Cisco, a company with tens of thousands of employees and tens of billions in revenue, who shares tips on establishing processes to increase the customer’s perceived experience.
Join us as we discuss:
More information about Andrew Carothers and today’s topics:
Customers are quick to switch to other brands, to competitors, that they feel are going to be easier to do business with and get them to business value faster. We talk with Andrew Carothers, Digital Experience Leader at Cisco, a company with tens of thousands of employees and tens of billions in revenue, who shares tips on establishing processes to increase the customer’s perceived experience.
Join us as we discuss:
- What it means to be in “the age of the customer”
- Why Business Value is more effective than “surprise & delight”
- How to hear the literal voice of the customer (3 steps)
- How to identify moments that matter
- Why video is a game changer for human connection in business
More information about Andrew Carothers and today’s topics:
- LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-carothers/
- Company Website: https://www.cisco.com/
- Other Relevant Links: AJ Carothers on IMDb; Peloton
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
The single most important thing you cando today is to create and deliver a
better experience for your customers. Learnhow sales, marketing and customer success experts
create internal alignment, achieve desired outcomes, and exceed customer expectations in a personal
and human way. This is theCustomer Experience Podcast. Here's your host,
(00:24):
Ethan Butte, building a customer experienceorganization inside a Fortune one hundred company starting
with just one tenth of one percentof the employees. In today's conversation,
you'll get a glimpse into that journey, as well as several takeaways around customer
value and customer success that don't requirecomplex orchestration. Our guest has spent the
(00:47):
past sixteen and a half years atCisco, starting in marketing and communications management
roles before helping build the CX organizationas a founding member. Today, he's
titled Digital Experience Leader. Andrew orOthers. Welcome to the Customer Experience Podcast.
Ethan. Thanks, it's a pleasureto be here. Yeah, man,
I loved our initial conversation. Ilove the journey that you've been on.
(01:07):
I appreciate you making time to shareit with us because I think it's
going to be instructional, and I'mlooking forward to getting more detail than I
got the first time for people whoare either a inside a large organization and
they need to drive some kind ofinnovation in this area, or of course
for younger organizations that have the opportunityto kind of build it from the ground
up. I know that you havea unique perspective on it, and you
probably have a unique perspective on theopening question that I ask everybody, what
(01:32):
does customer experience? When I saythat, what does that mean to you?
Andrew? Yeah, Yeah, Acustomer experience to me means the impression
that customers have as a result ofall the different engagements they have with a
company, both direct and indirect.So directly touching a company, interacting with
(01:52):
the company, whether that be digitallyon the website or with a customer service
RAP or whomever be, and indirectmeaning their conversation where the company's partners or
other customers. So it's similar tobranding in that regard. It's the totality
of the perception. But in thiscase, I'd say they're branding and CX
are two sides of the same coin. Where branding is the promise made to
(02:14):
customers and prospects, and CX isthe execution of that or the realization of
that, right and sometimes sometimes hopefullythose are aligned, sometimes they're not.
But to me CX is then therealization of the brand promise. Really good.
I love the way that you layeredbrand in there, and I want
to dwell in that for just aminute because I want to make an observation
(02:35):
then get your reaction to it.In my observation, when we say we're
doing customer experience work or we're doingbranding work, all we're doing is seeking
to influence essentially the emotional sentiment aroundthe actual experience. But like the takeaway
so on the other side of thatobservation is that the customer owns and gets
to define the experience. Their experienceis the experience. The brand is what
(03:00):
the customer says it is. Doyou believe that? Yeah, it does
so absolutely. And the new onceI would add to that is that that's
a sea change from the way businesshas been for decades. So we're now
in the age of the customer,where the customer has options that they didn't
have before, right, And that'sthat's as the result of the rise of
(03:21):
computing power and SaaS technology. That'sthe rise of the sort of blending of
the line between business to consumer andbusiness to business, so now sort of
business to everyone. People expect thesame, the same customer experience that they
have in an easy way with Amazonor Apple or others. They expect that
(03:42):
in their in their experience with anonline grocery outlet or with their software supplier.
So the reason why they have thepower to expect that. It's one
thing to have the expectations. It'sanother thing to be able to actually to
influence that are demanded. How areyou want to put it? And that's
because the ability of customers to switchto competitors has never been easier. The
(04:06):
moats protecting customers have fallen. Sowe see that a lot in the in
the software world and the hardware world, which in many cases has moved to
a software platform. So it usedto be that customers were loyal to a
brand, in some cases because theywere loyal to it out of desire,
(04:27):
in many cases because they were trappedthey had bottom expensive piece of hardware.
San Cisco's world fifteen years ago,they built an IT organization trained in using
that particular hardware and optimizing the hardware. So the costs and the hassle associated
was switching or so high that theydidn't. Now the ability to find multiple
(04:48):
competitors who offered the same type ofthe same product, of the same service,
and the ability to switch vendors regularlyand easily is so great. Now
the customer is in charge. Soto circle back, it's the customer's perception
of their experience with a company thatmatters, and in particular, the customer's
(05:12):
perception of their ability to get businessvalue and to do so with relative ease,
because they could get to business value, but if it's very difficult to
do so, then the overall equationof getting to that value is lower than
if it's easy to get to Sowe're finding that customers not just weed like
(05:33):
the industry is not just Cisco,but the industry is finding customers will switch
and have switched very easily and quicklyto other brands, to competitors that they
feel are going to be easier todo business with and get them to business
value faster. So that's why we'rein what I call the age of the
customer. Now really good. Ilove that take In general, you're speaking
(05:53):
my language. You're actually speaking alot to the reason we started this podcast
and some of the core theses behindit that we wanted to expla through these
conversations. I really appreciate that approachvery much, and I was going to
save this till later, but Iguess it's right here to be had because
you just spoke to it. Talkabout the gap between or the relationship between
(06:13):
perhaps you know, kind of thesentiment and the surprise and delight and the
loyalty because of desire versus customer success. Certainly you've been along this customer success
and customer experience ride for the betterpart of its popular life cycle, you
know, like you know I ingeneral, I think we would say these
(06:33):
practices in their current form are probablythe dozen years that you've spent focused on
it approximately, maybe a little bitmore, but regardless, I think in
general, earlier on, I thinkit was a lot more. A lot
of the conversation was around this kindof surprise and delight in the sentiment,
and we may be lost sight ofthe other side of it, which is
the customer success. And I guessI would bottom line that and then I'll
(06:56):
give it back to you to drawout the relationship between surprise and delight versus
value delivery and what is there youknow, how do you weigh but how
do you all think about those?How do you weigh them, etc?
What has more influence and why orhow do they interact? But in general,
I think if we can get peopleto their desired value faster and easier
(07:16):
than we used to and or fasteror easier than our competitors, that's going
to buy us a lot of grayslash drive down the necessity to really create
some of this like over the topemotional value. Talk about the relationship between
value in emotional sentiment. Yeah,I think that's a great point, and
they certainly play a role together.I think what you've touched on is an
(07:41):
element of the maturing of CX.So a lot of CX started from either
I think a lot of people whowho are now in CX started from either
a customer service background or a marketingbackground, and we're seeing those sort of
the two feeder professions that have putpeople into sea X. So the surprise
and delight approach is born from themarketing lineage of CX, and I think
(08:09):
when I say we're moving away fromthat into into a more mature CX.
It's not to disparage surprise and delight, but what customers are demanding now.
And I operate in a B toB environment with Cisco, but I think
this is still the case in manycases in a B two C environment as
well. People are looking to solvea problem they have, whether it's to
(08:31):
make their life easy in their consumerworld and the personal life, or whether
it's to solve a business problem thatthey have or that they're trying to solve
in behalf of their company. They'relooking for value, and I think when
it comes to weighing how much issurprise and delight matter versus speed to business
value, I think without question it'sspeed to business value over surprise and delight.
(08:56):
People would rather have a plain Jaineexperience that gets them to value more
quickly than being surprised and delighted everyonce in a while while still struggling with
a company and to make sense oftheir website to find in the information they're
looking for, to pay with thecredit card, to request a demo.
All right, we make things sohard, so the occasional surprise and delight,
(09:20):
and that approach requires an occasional naturebecause if you're always surprising and delighting.
You're not surprising anymore, and it'shard to surprise and delight all the
time. The companies don't have theresources to invest in that, which means
it's an occasional surprise and delight thatdoesn't top the steady Eddie. It's a
little bit like the hair and theTortoise analogy. Yeah, it reminds me
(09:43):
of Chef Hiken, who is acustomer service and customer experience legend. I'll
give that to him. I thinkhe's earned it over the past four decades.
I think one of our episodes togetherhe's been on the show two or
three times, was being exceptional.It's just being slightly better than average all
of the time. It's that consistencycomponent, like we don't need to blow
(10:05):
the roof out to be amazing forcustomers. We just need to be above
average all of the time, andthat in and of itself is going to
amaze people. Okay, before wego too much, Father Andrew. For
people who are familiar with the nameCisco, which is almost everybody and certainly
everybody that listens to a show likethis one but may not know a lot
(10:26):
more, just set the scene.Who is Cisco in twenty twenty three,
Like, who are some of yourideal customers and what are some of the
main problems that you're solving for them. Sure, so Cisco is an almost
forty year old tech company. Shargaroffis a hardware company. Really made its
name and its business being the plumbersof the Internet, as we would cause
of routers, switches, all ofthe back end that made the Internet possible.
(10:50):
Over the last fifteen or so years, we've been transitioning, along with
the rest of the industry, intoa software company. So right now about
fifty percent of our venue is recurringrevenue, whether it be from software or
from from services and subscription contracts,because that's where that's where customers have been
taken the industry. We focus inon a few key markets, so collaboration
(11:13):
is a big market where leaders inthat space with webx of Cisco. WebEx
is our product more industrial enterprise,high security level product there. Security is
a big focus area for us aswell, so we have a suite of
security products. I think we're theleader in that market, but it's a
highly fractured market. So being theleader means we have rough don't quoe me
(11:35):
in that we're roughly twelve to fiftypresent market share. So internet security,
web security, email security duo ismulti factor authentication as a Cisco product,
so collaboration and security, and thenof course networking our legacy area. Now
it's much more of a focus onsoftware defined networking, so we're focusing on
(11:56):
networking as well, so still beingable to draw the connection, and of
course there's lost the interplay between allthree of those areas. If you've got
to focus it on networking, youneed to have a secure networking, right,
and so we have about fifty tosixty billion dollars a year in revenue,
so we're a very large global company. Awesome, thank you for that.
(12:16):
And now let's go a little bitinto the I assume that you're stating,
in part, of course, yourown observations as an intelligent human being
working in America today and over thepast, you know, a couple of
decades. I feel like the ageof the customer is a reflection of that,
but I also assume that it reflectsa lot of internal philosophy. So
(12:37):
I would love for you to andI think the rise of CX inside Cisco
has probably driven and characterized The approachis characterized by the philosophy that you laid
out in one of your initial responses. So take us back to the founding
of the cx org inside Cisco.I for fun just did the math on
(12:58):
some numbers you gave me conversation lasttime. It got to about one tenth
of one percent. Talk about whatwas going on in the organization at that
time. You had been there forsix years or so at that point.
How did you get involved, whatwas the scene there, what was the
motivation, and what was kind ofthe initial charter of this tiny group of
intrepid humans inside this very large company. So, yeah, absolutely, before
(13:22):
I answer, I appreciate you givingme the benefit of the doubt calling me
an intelligent human. Yeah. Sure, yes, I'll take it. I'll
take it. So, about fifteenyears ago the company, the CEO at
the time, John Chambers, whowas the legendary TEXIEO, started talking about
Cisco moving into software, and alot of people inside the company outside of
(13:45):
the company scoffed out a little bit, weren't quite sure because you know this
thirty this is moving away from thirtyyears of hardware legacy. So a few
a couple of years later, westarted to focus in on well, if
we're going to be a software company, then we need to care about and
based you know, that's driving subscriptionrevenue. Then getting people to actually use
(14:07):
and get value out of what they'vepurchased becomes important because in the hardware world,
honestly, it wasn't that important.We sold expensive hardware, We got
paid upfront, and then we wouldcome back to customers. We'd circle back,
you know, eight to ten yearslater when it was time to refresh.
That box might even be a differentoftentimes was a different seller. We
didn't have very good records as towho was the actual purchaser of that I
(14:31):
want any boy. That is wherea partner based business. So upwards of
ninety percent of our business goes throughpartners, so our partners had a closer
connection with our customers than we do. So in that environment, we realized,
all right, we need to weneed to be act like a modern
software and set and software as aservice company and build out the capability for
(14:54):
us to reach customers at scale allacross the world, millions of customers,
to be able to help them getvalue from that which they've received at the
time, I was in our servicesmarketing the organization, so we started from
there. There was a There werefifty of us that started, joined by
another fifty, so a total ofone hundred people created the Global Customer Success
(15:18):
Organization. That second charts at fiftypeople were services contract renewal sellers who were
doing the same thing when they joinedour Global Customer Success Organization on Monday as
they've been doing the previous Friday inthe sales organization. But we put that
function into this new Customer Success organizationand we started to create a way to
(15:39):
reach out to our customers. Andso that process started from being customer centering
before we lifted any fingers, wewent out and reached and got together with
customers and asked them again. Itwas focused in the beginning. Service we
were focused in on. Our productwe were focusing on was our technical serves
(16:00):
contracts that we already had a businessoperating. We had belower than than industry
average renewal rates on though, sothere was there was headroom there for us
to grow and it was already businessline we had in place, so it
was natural for us to focus ourinitial Customer Successful Organization in that area.
So first thing we did was goout and start talking to these customers and
(16:22):
find out why are you renewing yourservice contracts? Why aren't you renewing your
service contracts? Initially there had beenfor a number of years people running around
thinking, Bowie, we've got theselower than industry norm renewal rates on our
service contracts. Why is it?Is it? The naming of it?
Is it? The price point?Is what? We included a sort of
the classic marketing you know, fourps, right, And when we talked
(16:44):
to customers, it turns out theanswer was none of the above. The
answer was, well, I didn'teven know I how service contractor we knew
right it was? It was.It was that basic. But until people
went out and started talking to thecustomer that we found out what the route
caused was so as simple as Ididn't know. So we also then started
talking to partners to find out whatworks for them when it comes to working
(17:08):
with their customers and Cisco working withCisco directly. All these sorts of things,
based on that, we were ableto do to put together journey mapping,
starting with the moments that matter,the milestones that those moments that matter
are inflection points with customers that reallymake a difference in their doing business with
us and with their partners. Andbased on that, we then built out
(17:30):
the rest of the journey map andthen layered on top of that the content
map for right, what information viawhich channels, at what time do we
need to get in front of ourcustomers and in what medium? Right do
they want videos explaining things? Dothey want written documentation, do they want
(17:51):
how to guides? What do weneed to do and some of it?
And then doing an internal assessment ofwhat we already have, what's the gap,
what do we need to create?And then further on top of that
what we call the automation map,So this is what's the engine, what's
the it engine that we need toput in place so that we can orchestrate
the connection points, orchestrate the pullingof data from this part of the business
(18:15):
or that part of the business intoa data lake and threading it together and
then being able to get it tocustomers via the direct channel. And then
Cisco, as I mentioned, beinga partner driven company with you selling through
partners, we had to take intoaccount how are we going to do all
this with our partners as well?In a way that serves their business and
(18:36):
serves our customers business. And thatwas a requirement not only because that's our
business model being partner centric, butalso again from the customer standpoint, they
oftentimes don't make a distinction between Ciscoand the partner to them as one of
the saying why don't you guys getyour act together? Why does your right
(18:57):
hand not know what you're left andis doing? So we had to figure
out a way to not only buildthe journey map with the milestones and the
automation, the content, etc.But also build in a process for us
to be able to reach out tocustomers jointly with our partners and then thread
the data so that we're sharing informationnot only with customers, but with our
(19:18):
partners and with our own internal teamswho are customer facing. Man, I've
got like fifteen follow up zones thatI would like to explore as I have
to like in my mind of activelythinking about which one to pursue. First
of all, I just want tosay I love the distinction you made there
that the customer doesn't make the distinction, like calling that out specifically. It's
(19:40):
so relevant to so many people inso many different businesses, like when we
are building stacks of things or ordersof operations. Even when things go outside
our bounds, the customer doesn't knowor care, and even withinside our bounds.
Another reason we started the show isto kind of like minimize the siloing
effect that can happen even inside ahealthy culture, because customer doesn't care which
team member or what organization, orhow you're organized, or you know,
(20:04):
these types of things. We needto own all of it inside and outside
our organization, create one seamless experiencethat makes sense from the customer's perspective,
not to our own. And Ithink that's probably one tip that I would
offer folks, just based on havingconversations with people like you, is that
when we do this mapping, themap is not for you. The map
(20:26):
is for the customer, and weneed to figure out how to fulfill it.
So I guess where I want togo here is back to the beginning.
Do you have any and this doesn'thave to be specific to that initial
initiative, but do you have anyadvice for folks about how to how often
or how to conduct or how toblend the input of multiple people doing customer
(20:48):
interviews? Any tips on blending thedifferent ways we can collect, in particular
here the literal voice of customer,because I appreciate the call out to that
too. You can't just read abunch of surveys and look at a bunch
of data. You need to talkto people and hear not just what they're
saying, but what they're not saying, and how they're saying, that things
they're saying, and does other distinctthings. There any tips on customer interviews
(21:11):
and literal voice of the customer?Sure, I mean we could do We
could do multiple podcasts on just thistopic. So high level summary the thoughts
that come to mind. Under one, you have to do it. What
I mean by that is you can'tjust talk about it. You can't just
talk about it and not do it. You can't just pay it lip service
and say, yes, we havea robust Voice of the Customer program.
(21:33):
You actually have to be intentional inyour approach to the voice, to gathering
and to disseminating in a closed loopprocess internal to your organization the voice of
the customer what it means. Sothat's step one is being intentional and do
it. Step two is to include, to so identify and include the multiple
(21:56):
parts of your organization where customer conversationsare taking place. So it's your CX
organization, no matter how large orsmall it is. It's your sales organization,
it's your customer service organization. It'syour data and analytics team that's tracking
the digital breadcrumbs as your customers cometo your website and various parts of your
(22:19):
website or your community where they're lookingat webinars. Ideally you're looking outside the
organization as well, and you're lookingat social media platforms that they may be
participating in. So not a bigbrother way, but to understand the voice
of the customer, because what thecustomer says is oftentimes with the customer things
(22:41):
and oftentimes will surprise people in yourown organization, but sometimes they may say
one thing and do a different thing. We all do this in our lives.
So getting multiple viewpoints in there whenwe go out and talk to customers,
we also talk to sellers who areworking with those customers to validate are
you seeing the same thing that thesecustomers are saying. So working across your
(23:04):
organization and if possible, outside ofyour organization is step two, and then
step three is figure out a waydoesn't have to be a complex technologically supported
solution, although it may be,but figuring out a way to share the
information internally, and that's documenting theresults of those conversations with customers and sharing
(23:29):
them, whether that's just sharing thaton an internal collaboration site, a Slack
site, a WebEx site, ayou know, dropbox, whatever it might
be, or sharing videos of customerconversation JAF. Oftentimes it's then going out
and reaching out to different teams internallythat have a stake in understanding the customer
(23:52):
and literally bringing in customers to intothose conversations. So we bring customers that
we work with as part of reachingafter customers having conversations and won't ask them,
hey, can we bring you into meet with a sales team or
other parts of the CX organization,or depending on who they are, can
we bring you in to talk toour executive leadership team. In some cases,
(24:14):
we'll even take executives out of theoffice literally into the customer's office so
that they're shadowing a customer or walkingthrough the hospital if it's the hospital's customer,
to understand what the customers businesses challengesare that we are trying to drive
value to solve for right. Sothere's nothing like actually hearing from a customer
(24:37):
and again from our case the partneras well, so multiple ways to share
the customer information. I've got awhole power point slide deck of one hundred
slides that are just customer quotes.It could be as simple as that.
So but that's step three. It'sfiguring out what your process is going to
be to take the information you've gleanedand sharing that internally. Because if you
(25:00):
do those three steps, then you'relikely to get much greater buy in from
the rest of the people in yourorganization who will now be interested in sharing
their customer notes from a particular conversation. Or you might have a seller who
puts more thorough notes into the CRMcontact that you have for that customer than
(25:22):
they might otherwise because they know thatthose notes are going to be used,
and they know how they're going tobe used, so there's value to They
understand the value to the organization andhow that's going to circle back to them.
So getting people's buying to actually participatein the process will come from following
those three steps. Really really welldone. That's a great roundup and it's
(25:42):
relevant to anyone listening to this episode, no matter the size of your organization.
It's a very practical approach, andyou just do it in an appropriately
scaled manner. I also appreciate yourcall out to direct human to human interaction
up to and including going to thecustomer in real life in person. It's
(26:02):
so interesting how we can be essentiallybedazzled by all of the digital capabilities,
but ultimately some of the best andmost valuable information is going to either come
from or be validated by that directhuman to human interaction. Here another spot
I'd like to go, and youcan maybe do a version of that if
you're up for it, on identifyingmoments that matter and perhaps even sharing with
(26:27):
us a little bit of your ownthought process on how do we decide whether
or not that is going to beone of those automated touch points. If
so, kind of what media willwe use to do that? And or
should this be a human to humanmoment, Should this be one of us
picking up the phone and giving thema call or something else like that.
Anything you want to share about momentsthat matter, and it doesn't have to
(26:48):
be as beautifully structured as philast response, unless you have that at hand.
So first off, you mentioned digitalversus human and what's the balance, and
obviously that that change is depending onthe customer and the day, etc.
But I'll point out that research showsthat seventy five percent of B to B
customers I suspect it's even higher forB two C customers, seventy five percent
(27:14):
prefer a digital first approach. Theywant a digital first self serve approach.
Let me get the information I want. And this is this is for you
know, traditionally simple you know,low cost, low risk purchasing decisions.
It's also for very complicated decisions,complex enterprise networking decisions, home buying,
(27:36):
a big important purchases. Customers stillwant a digital first self serve capability with
the human fallback when they when theyneed it right, they want to know
that that possibility is there. Sowith that as a as a foundational part
of this conversation, the moments thatmatters. Having those conversations with customers really
identify the moments that matter, becauseagain it's from the customer standpoint, and
(27:59):
every time we go in to havea conversation with a customer, thinking in
advance, oh, here the momentsthat matter let's let's make sure we're asking
probing questions around this particular moment.Then we often find that, you know,
we're about seventy five percent right,and we missed a quarter of the
really important matters. So some examplesof those moments that matter are things from
during the purchasing process customers prospects,whether they're existing customers or new potential customers,
(28:26):
making it easy for them to findthe information that they're looking for and
finding it from sources that they trust. So in some cases that means the
marketing material on the company's website.But even then, which seems fairly basic.
So many company websites, especially largercompanies that have been around for a
(28:47):
few years, they've may be grownthrough some acquisitions. The websites have grown
in an organic, non coordinated way, and it could be very difficult to
do something as basic as finding basicproduct spects about a product. Will this
work with what I have already?The second area that customers want to typically
(29:08):
want to get information from in atrustworthy source from the customer's eyes, is
current customers of the same company andof the same product, so a customer
community. So just talk about fromCisco standpoint. Our website is our largest
digital asset. We get fifty millionunique visitors a year. Our Cisco community
(29:29):
is our second largest digital asset.We get fourteen million unique visitors a year.
And customers go there and prospects gothere to figure out what a current
customers saying about what I'm interested inusing it, and not only that,
but how easy or difficult will itbe for me to get the value that
(29:49):
the company is saying I'm going toget out of it? Right. So,
Gardner research shows that the number onebuying criteria for prospects is and functionality.
Will this product do what I wantedto do? Doesn't have that capability?
The number three and number two issimilar to that. It's sort of
the category of it. Number threein the buying criteria for prospects is not
(30:15):
price, It is perceived experience,the perceived customer experience when they buy it.
It's one thing for a product tobe a great price and to have
all the capabilities I need to doX. It's another thing for me to
actually be able to get that valueout of it. So customers go to
the community to talk with other customersas a trusted resource. So that's One
(30:38):
moment that matters during the buying processis enabling customers to easily get access to
the resources they need from the sourcesthat they trust. Another key moment that
matters is onboarding. And I knowsome of the other guests I've talked about
this as well, But if youdon't on board onto a customer, if
(30:59):
your first interaction with a product ora service is difficult, then that colors
everything else, all right, Thenthat vendor is fighting an uphill battle just
to get to neutral ground with you, a neutral sentiment with you, right,
And you don't want to have yourcustomers thinking it's so hard to do
business with you. So onboarding.Look, I've gone through this and I've
(31:21):
done my research. I bought it. I'm ready to go. If I
don't hear from you for a monthbecause you just haven't gotten around and say,
hey, welcome and here's how youget started, I may not have
taken the action to get started onmy own. And now it's a month
later, I'm like, what didI buy? Why did I buy it?
What am I supposed to do?First? And then if I take
a couple of steps, but Iwant to hear from you again for another
(31:42):
month, Like where was I beforein the process, and uh so,
onboarding is a critical moment that mattersfor people, and if you don't get
that right, you're fighting an uphillbattle with your customers from the whole rest
of the life cycle. Yeah.Really well done, And I'll just plus
up this on boarding piece and evenstart with that window where buyer's remorse might
(32:02):
set in, you know where,even without any interaction, I'm starting to
anticipate that the experience I thought Iwas going to get. Just tying back
to your other great example of amoment that matters, like, you know,
I'm led to the idea that iwill be able to achieve this value
as I'm not going to be insanelydifficult. This is going to be a
reasonable thing. So I read threepeople talk about it, and this doesn't
a grate wall with my tech stack. There's still that lingering doubt, you
(32:25):
know, between I've committed and I'mbeing onboarded. That that's part of that
experience as well. Okay, veryspecific question for you, and it is
a little bit self serving, butI would love your perspective on it.
I think what you shared there aboutthe preference for a self service experience,
even on large purchases, complex salescycles, significant commitments. It really speaks
(32:52):
to my mind to an enhanced valueand power of video, in part because
it has some human element, butit can be very it can be completely
a synchronous and therefore check this kindof self service box where I'm getting this
communication, but it's not a highpriority for me this week or even these
two weeks. So I'm gonna putit in a folder and then one day
(33:14):
I'm gonna go access all these things. But I can have a different style
of connection and relationship and education thanI could by just getting a series of
emails that link out to a supportside or a blog post or something else.
Any thoughts on video in any ofthese moments that mattered, perhaps even
because I know you all do alot of video work too, how you
(33:34):
all are thinking about its implementation andperhaps how that's changed over the past five
to ten years. Sure, that'sa great question. Video video is a
game changer. I'm surprised a littlebit that it is still a game changer.
I'm surprised we're not farther along thanwhere we are now. But it's
a game changer because it personalizes thecommunication with customers. It is video and
(33:57):
two forums. I'll put it.There's the show me how to use something.
I'm buying a true story, I'mbuying a backyard patio or our northern
California sounder has been a little coolerthan usual this year, so I'm buying
just a you know, a heaterfor outside, and went and watched videos
just last night around how do Iset this up? How do I use
it? So as amplifying two things, the value of video and the value
(34:22):
of helping me understand what my experienceis going to be while I'm still in
the prospect purchasing stage that we werejust talking about. So there's one show
me how to use this product orthe service or that sort of thing.
I think even even as powerful isthe human to human video connection. The
ability to personalize the conversation everything fromjust a quick high I'm your sales rep,
(34:49):
I'm your CSM, I'm you know, whomever puts a face to the
name. That even that basic levelof personalization to just being able to understand
empathy and and understand what people aresaying with their body language. So video
is huge. I'll go back whenwe started the global Customer Success Organization at
Cisco twelve years ago. Fast forwardfrom that point about five years and then
(35:14):
we started, after we'd kind ofbuilt our foundational elements, we started to
focus more intently on changing the culturewithin Cisco, and part of that was
working with our sales organization, andwe started teaching them how to become digital
sellers, right and again helping themunderstand the shift in the customer base and
(35:34):
how they can respond to that andtake advantage of them. And a big
part of that was using video andbomb bomb and other tools make it so
easy to do that now, right, So that's a technicological change that has
enabled the ease of using video.So we started working with our sales organization
so that they can understand the advantagehow to do that. And the ones
(35:57):
who got really good at it gamechanging for them, right, they're the
ones at the President's Club. Yeah, so good, Thank you for that.
And I agree, I'm surprised thatdespite my best efforts and the efforts
of so many other people, thatit is still a bit of a novelty
for a lot of people. Ithink it comes down to human vulnerability.
I think that's our single biggest impedimentto adoption of this personal style beyond the
(36:17):
how to style. But that's aseparate topic for a separate conversation. In
fact, there are other conversations youand I should have in this context,
specifically about selling some of this changeinternally from a cultural perspective. I'd also
love to go, and we justdon't have time for it right now,
but i'd love to get into howyou all approached, you know, the
(36:38):
story that you shared very well earlierin this conversation around you know, we
took this particular business problem people ontechnical service contracts and built around that.
I would assume that then you tookon this thing and that thing, and
this thing and that thing, andeach one requires its own set of customer
interviews, and each one requires itsown journey app and each one requires its
(37:00):
own moments that matter, and eventhose moments that matter a variations to your
point earlier of like, well,we're still only hitting at seventy five percent
of the time with these moments.We need to have some nuance there for
folks who are listening. Andrew isnodding his head, and so yes,
I assume that this is the directionyou approximately approximately when you are spot on
with everything. Yes, you've justlaid out the last twelve years awesome.
(37:23):
So I guess you know. BeforeI get to some questions, I always
love asking every guest the last lastzone. I'd love for you to speak
to because I intended to do itearlier, but I just wanted to keep
everything going. Talk about the differenceand the similarity between or the relationship between
customer success and customer experience. Youalready hint at at a little bit earlier
(37:45):
talking about customer service and marketing comingtogether for CX, But for clarity's sake,
I'd love for you to speak tocustomer success as a team of function,
a set of deliverables, etc.Versus customer experience, like where does
one diverge from the other and wheredo they overlap? So that's that is
(38:06):
a question that a lot of peopleare asking. My take is that the
world of CX, if it werea person, it's reached the teenage years.
And what I mean by that isthere's a there there now right,
it's grown. It was birth fromas I mentioned, sort of customer service
and marketing. Now, you know, twelve or so a year later,
he's thirteen years later, it's ateenager where everyone knows it's there, everyone's
(38:28):
talking about it, but it doesn'tknow what it's going to be when it's
grows up. It doesn't know whereit's going to live in an organization.
Is it going to be a separatefunction. Is it going to live in
marketing? Is it going to livein some cases I've seen it engineering other
parts of the organization. Where's itgoing to live? What's it going to
encompass? What's it going to becalled? To get to your question?
So, to me, customer experienceis the broader term, is the all
(38:52):
encompassing turner. Customer success is thepart that focuses more on adoption specifically,
whereas customer experience encompasses the pre purchasedpart of it, which we touched on
earlier, the adoption component, therenewal component, as well as the overall
perception component related to delivering on thepromise of the brand that we started off
(39:15):
the conversation with, Well done.I appreciate that another conversation and I could
have is about ex Cisco, butthat leads me to another episode. If
you've enjoyed this time with Andrew,I'd love to point to two other episodes.
The first one I'm thinking of isepisode one twenty one with Steve Cox
and Christie or Nellis of Cisco.I don't think. I think Steve is
somewhere else now, but I thinkChristy is still there. But that was
(39:37):
one of the rare interviews where Iinterviewed two people at one time and we
talked about three ways to elevate employeeexperience from the world's best workplace. That's
something I didn't even mention this episodeis how well regarded Cisco is from an
ex perspective in particular. And Iknow as a sixteen and a half year
team member, Andrew, You've gota lot you could share on that for
(39:58):
another conversation. So that's one twentyone with Steve Cox and Christie or Ellis
of Cisco. And then a littlemore recently episode one ninety five with Lewis
Angel Lalan. He's the VP ofCustomer Voice at American Express and we called
that one Customer Voice and Sentiment Analysis. So where you and I were briefly
Andrew on qualitative and quantitative feedback voiceof the customer, how do we incorporate
(40:21):
it into not just our processes,but how do we build it into the
culture of the organization. Lewis andI had a great conversation on that on
episode one ninety five before I LetYou Go. Andrew two questions I always
love asking. The first is wouldyou please give a thank you to someone
who's had a positive impact on yourlife or career. I'll mention two people
(40:42):
who are my mentors. Was mydad, not only as a person and
as a father, but in aprofessional sense as well. My dad was
a dad, was a professional storyteller. He was a screenwriter and for much
of my childhood worked from home,so I got to see his thought process
and his storyboarding and all. SoI really learned how to tell stories and
(41:02):
how to influence people, which playeda role in me moving into marketing first
and then customer experience overall here inthe rest of my career. The second
one, much more direct from apersonal from a professional standpoint, is a
man named Ted Michael. Ted Michaelwas an early public relations expert. Everybody
speaks about we just mckinna. Intech pr world, it was Michael McKenna
(41:24):
was the name of the firm,and they put Silicon Valley on the map,
and I had the opportunity to workwith Ted for a few years and
he really took my game from hereto top level when it came to how
to communicate, how to think.So those are two folks that I owe
a lot to. Awesome. Howabout a company or brand that you personally
(41:45):
appreciate for the experience that they deliverfor you as a customer. Yeah,
the one that immediately stands out tome is Peloton for multiple reasons. They're
so easy to do business with fromevery step of the way. So the
unspoken part of our conversation here Ethanhas been it has to have to make
it easy to do business with itwith your customers. Peloton does that from
deciding what to buy, to buyingit, to using it, etc.
(42:07):
So one is the ease of doingbusiness. Two is the multi channel or
I used to say multi platform elementand how it's all threaded together for a
seamless experience. So whether you've gotwhatever the piece of hardware, you have,
a rower, a tread, abike, and you've got an app
on your phone and you can useyou can access information on the web,
(42:30):
all of that data, what classesyou've taken, what's coming up next,
like all of that is threaded seamlessly. So to me, that sort of
multi platform and the data threading behindthat is a critical element of any customer
experience process, and I think theydo it really well. Great example and
well told. I have heard youknow. I was so happy to hear
(42:52):
you walk that out. You know, Peloton of course had some negative headlines
for some kind of a post pandemichangover, but we've heard Peloton at this
moment of these conversations before, during, and of course after kind of the
core window of the pandemic period.And so really well done there. And
I also appreciate how you call themout as a model for how to integrate
(43:13):
these things effectively on behalf of ourcustomers. For people who've reached this point,
Andrew, they've enjoyed their time withyou. Otherwise they wouldn't be here
right now if they want to connectwith you, or they want to learn
more about Cisco, or they wantto learn more about the work that you're
doing. Any place that you sendpeople to follow up on this, yeah,
the best place to reach me.I would love to talk to anyone
and everyone about this topic. It'sit's near and jar my heart. Best
(43:35):
place to reaching me is on LinkedInAndrew Caruthers c R O t H e
R S and that's the best placeto reach me. I've also on Twitter
for the moment at AJ Carruthers awesome. He is Andrew Carruthers spelled as he
just spelled it. I am EthanButte. Last name is b Eute.
Hit us up on LinkedIn. I'llalso have these linked up in the description
(43:57):
of these episodes. We also writeall of them up and drive up in
some video highlights at bombomb dot comFlash podcast. This one's going to be
around number. It's episode two sixty, so look for episode two sixty at
bombob dot com slash Podcast. Andrew, thank you so much for your time.
As I said, I've got likethree more conversations I look forward to
having with you sometime and I appreciatethis time together too. Thank you so
(44:19):
much even I really enjoyed it.Look forward to the next ones. Every
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The single most important thing you cando today is to create and deliver a
better experience for your customers. Learnhow sales, marketing and customer success experts
create internal alignment, achieve desired outcomes, and exceed customer expectations in a personal
and human way. This is theCustomer Experience Podcast. Here's your host,
(00:24):
Ethan Butte, building a customer experienceorganization inside a Fortune one hundred company starting
with just one tenth of one percentof the employees. In today's conversation,
you'll get a glimpse into that journey, as well as several takeaways around customer
value and customer success that don't requirecomplex orchestration. Our guest has spent the
(00:47):
past sixteen and a half years atCisco, starting in marketing and communications management
roles before helping build the CX organizationas a founding member. Today, he's
titled Digital Experience Leader. Andrew orOthers. Welcome to the Customer Experience Podcast.
Ethan. Thanks, it's a pleasureto be here. Yeah, man,
I loved our initial conversation. Ilove the journey that you've been on.
(01:07):
I appreciate you making time to shareit with us because I think it's
going to be instructional, and I'mlooking forward to getting more detail than I
got the first time for people whoare either a inside a large organization and
they need to drive some kind ofinnovation in this area, or of course
for younger organizations that have the opportunityto kind of build it from the ground
up. I know that you havea unique perspective on it, and you
probably have a unique perspective on theopening question that I ask everybody, what
(01:32):
does customer experience? When I saythat, what does that mean to you?
Andrew? Yeah, Yeah, Acustomer experience to me means the impression
that customers have as a result ofall the different engagements they have with a
company, both direct and indirect.So directly touching a company, interacting with
(01:52):
the company, whether that be digitallyon the website or with a customer service
RAP or whomever be, and indirectmeaning their conversation where the company's partners or
other customers. So it's similar tobranding in that regard. It's the totality
of the perception. But in thiscase, I'd say they're branding and CX
are two sides of the same coin. Where branding is the promise made to
(02:14):
customers and prospects, and CX isthe execution of that or the realization of
that, right and sometimes sometimes hopefullythose are aligned, sometimes they're not.
But to me CX is then therealization of the brand promise. Really good.
I love the way that you layeredbrand in there, and I want
to dwell in that for just aminute because I want to make an observation
(02:35):
then get your reaction to it.In my observation, when we say we're
doing customer experience work or we're doingbranding work, all we're doing is seeking
to influence essentially the emotional sentiment aroundthe actual experience. But like the takeaway
so on the other side of thatobservation is that the customer owns and gets
to define the experience. Their experienceis the experience. The brand is what
(03:00):
the customer says it is. Doyou believe that? Yeah, it does
so absolutely. And the new onceI would add to that is that that's
a sea change from the way businesshas been for decades. So we're now
in the age of the customer,where the customer has options that they didn't
have before, right, And that'sthat's as the result of the rise of
(03:21):
computing power and SaaS technology. That'sthe rise of the sort of blending of
the line between business to consumer andbusiness to business, so now sort of
business to everyone. People expect thesame, the same customer experience that they
have in an easy way with Amazonor Apple or others. They expect that
(03:42):
in their in their experience with anonline grocery outlet or with their software supplier.
So the reason why they have thepower to expect that. It's one
thing to have the expectations. It'sanother thing to be able to actually to
influence that are demanded. How areyou want to put it? And that's
because the ability of customers to switchto competitors has never been easier. The
(04:06):
moats protecting customers have fallen. Sowe see that a lot in the in
the software world and the hardware world, which in many cases has moved to
a software platform. So it usedto be that customers were loyal to a
brand, in some cases because theywere loyal to it out of desire,
(04:27):
in many cases because they were trappedthey had bottom expensive piece of hardware.
San Cisco's world fifteen years ago,they built an IT organization trained in using
that particular hardware and optimizing the hardware. So the costs and the hassle associated
was switching or so high that theydidn't. Now the ability to find multiple
(04:48):
competitors who offered the same type ofthe same product, of the same service,
and the ability to switch vendors regularlyand easily is so great. Now
the customer is in charge. Soto circle back, it's the customer's perception
of their experience with a company thatmatters, and in particular, the customer's
(05:12):
perception of their ability to get businessvalue and to do so with relative ease,
because they could get to business value, but if it's very difficult to
do so, then the overall equationof getting to that value is lower than
if it's easy to get to Sowe're finding that customers not just weed like
(05:33):
the industry is not just Cisco,but the industry is finding customers will switch
and have switched very easily and quicklyto other brands, to competitors that they
feel are going to be easier todo business with and get them to business
value faster. So that's why we'rein what I call the age of the
customer. Now really good. Ilove that take In general, you're speaking
(05:53):
my language. You're actually speaking alot to the reason we started this podcast
and some of the core theses behindit that we wanted to expla through these
conversations. I really appreciate that approachvery much, and I was going to
save this till later, but Iguess it's right here to be had because
you just spoke to it. Talkabout the gap between or the relationship between
(06:13):
perhaps you know, kind of thesentiment and the surprise and delight and the
loyalty because of desire versus customer success. Certainly you've been along this customer success
and customer experience ride for the betterpart of its popular life cycle, you
know, like you know I ingeneral, I think we would say these
(06:33):
practices in their current form are probablythe dozen years that you've spent focused on
it approximately, maybe a little bitmore, but regardless, I think in
general, earlier on, I thinkit was a lot more. A lot
of the conversation was around this kindof surprise and delight in the sentiment,
and we may be lost sight ofthe other side of it, which is
the customer success. And I guessI would bottom line that and then I'll
(06:56):
give it back to you to drawout the relationship between surprise and delight versus
value delivery and what is there youknow, how do you weigh but how
do you all think about those?How do you weigh them, etc?
What has more influence and why orhow do they interact? But in general,
I think if we can get peopleto their desired value faster and easier
(07:16):
than we used to and or fasteror easier than our competitors, that's going
to buy us a lot of grayslash drive down the necessity to really create
some of this like over the topemotional value. Talk about the relationship between
value in emotional sentiment. Yeah,I think that's a great point, and
they certainly play a role together.I think what you've touched on is an
(07:41):
element of the maturing of CX.So a lot of CX started from either
I think a lot of people whowho are now in CX started from either
a customer service background or a marketingbackground, and we're seeing those sort of
the two feeder professions that have putpeople into sea X. So the surprise
and delight approach is born from themarketing lineage of CX, and I think
(08:09):
when I say we're moving away fromthat into into a more mature CX.
It's not to disparage surprise and delight, but what customers are demanding now.
And I operate in a B toB environment with Cisco, but I think
this is still the case in manycases in a B two C environment as
well. People are looking to solvea problem they have, whether it's to
(08:31):
make their life easy in their consumerworld and the personal life, or whether
it's to solve a business problem thatthey have or that they're trying to solve
in behalf of their company. They'relooking for value, and I think when
it comes to weighing how much issurprise and delight matter versus speed to business
value, I think without question it'sspeed to business value over surprise and delight.
(08:56):
People would rather have a plain Jaineexperience that gets them to value more
quickly than being surprised and delighted everyonce in a while while still struggling with
a company and to make sense oftheir website to find in the information they're
looking for, to pay with thecredit card, to request a demo.
All right, we make things sohard, so the occasional surprise and delight,
(09:20):
and that approach requires an occasional naturebecause if you're always surprising and delighting.
You're not surprising anymore, and it'shard to surprise and delight all the
time. The companies don't have theresources to invest in that, which means
it's an occasional surprise and delight thatdoesn't top the steady Eddie. It's a
little bit like the hair and theTortoise analogy. Yeah, it reminds me
(09:43):
of Chef Hiken, who is acustomer service and customer experience legend. I'll
give that to him. I thinkhe's earned it over the past four decades.
I think one of our episodes togetherhe's been on the show two or
three times, was being exceptional.It's just being slightly better than average all
of the time. It's that consistencycomponent, like we don't need to blow
(10:05):
the roof out to be amazing forcustomers. We just need to be above
average all of the time, andthat in and of itself is going to
amaze people. Okay, before wego too much, Father Andrew. For
people who are familiar with the nameCisco, which is almost everybody and certainly
everybody that listens to a show likethis one but may not know a lot
(10:26):
more, just set the scene.Who is Cisco in twenty twenty three,
Like, who are some of yourideal customers and what are some of the
main problems that you're solving for them. Sure, so Cisco is an almost
forty year old tech company. Shargaroffis a hardware company. Really made its
name and its business being the plumbersof the Internet, as we would cause
of routers, switches, all ofthe back end that made the Internet possible.
(10:50):
Over the last fifteen or so years, we've been transitioning, along with
the rest of the industry, intoa software company. So right now about
fifty percent of our venue is recurringrevenue, whether it be from software or
from from services and subscription contracts,because that's where that's where customers have been
taken the industry. We focus inon a few key markets, so collaboration
(11:13):
is a big market where leaders inthat space with webx of Cisco. WebEx
is our product more industrial enterprise,high security level product there. Security is
a big focus area for us aswell, so we have a suite of
security products. I think we're theleader in that market, but it's a
highly fractured market. So being theleader means we have rough don't quoe me
(11:35):
in that we're roughly twelve to fiftypresent market share. So internet security,
web security, email security duo ismulti factor authentication as a Cisco product,
so collaboration and security, and thenof course networking our legacy area. Now
it's much more of a focus onsoftware defined networking, so we're focusing on
(11:56):
networking as well, so still beingable to draw the connection, and of
course there's lost the interplay between allthree of those areas. If you've got
to focus it on networking, youneed to have a secure networking, right,
and so we have about fifty tosixty billion dollars a year in revenue,
so we're a very large global company. Awesome, thank you for that.
(12:16):
And now let's go a little bitinto the I assume that you're stating,
in part, of course, yourown observations as an intelligent human being
working in America today and over thepast, you know, a couple of
decades. I feel like the ageof the customer is a reflection of that,
but I also assume that it reflectsa lot of internal philosophy. So
(12:37):
I would love for you to andI think the rise of CX inside Cisco
has probably driven and characterized The approachis characterized by the philosophy that you laid
out in one of your initial responses. So take us back to the founding
of the cx org inside Cisco.I for fun just did the math on
(12:58):
some numbers you gave me conversation lasttime. It got to about one tenth
of one percent. Talk about whatwas going on in the organization at that
time. You had been there forsix years or so at that point.
How did you get involved, whatwas the scene there, what was the
motivation, and what was kind ofthe initial charter of this tiny group of
intrepid humans inside this very large company. So, yeah, absolutely, before
(13:22):
I answer, I appreciate you givingme the benefit of the doubt calling me
an intelligent human. Yeah. Sure, yes, I'll take it. I'll
take it. So, about fifteenyears ago the company, the CEO at
the time, John Chambers, whowas the legendary TEXIEO, started talking about
Cisco moving into software, and alot of people inside the company outside of
(13:45):
the company scoffed out a little bit, weren't quite sure because you know this
thirty this is moving away from thirtyyears of hardware legacy. So a few
a couple of years later, westarted to focus in on well, if
we're going to be a software company, then we need to care about and
based you know, that's driving subscriptionrevenue. Then getting people to actually use
(14:07):
and get value out of what they'vepurchased becomes important because in the hardware world,
honestly, it wasn't that important.We sold expensive hardware, We got
paid upfront, and then we wouldcome back to customers. We'd circle back,
you know, eight to ten yearslater when it was time to refresh.
That box might even be a differentoftentimes was a different seller. We
didn't have very good records as towho was the actual purchaser of that I
(14:31):
want any boy. That is wherea partner based business. So upwards of
ninety percent of our business goes throughpartners, so our partners had a closer
connection with our customers than we do. So in that environment, we realized,
all right, we need to weneed to be act like a modern
software and set and software as aservice company and build out the capability for
(14:54):
us to reach customers at scale allacross the world, millions of customers,
to be able to help them getvalue from that which they've received at the
time, I was in our servicesmarketing the organization, so we started from
there. There was a There werefifty of us that started, joined by
another fifty, so a total ofone hundred people created the Global Customer Success
(15:18):
Organization. That second charts at fiftypeople were services contract renewal sellers who were
doing the same thing when they joinedour Global Customer Success Organization on Monday as
they've been doing the previous Friday inthe sales organization. But we put that
function into this new Customer Success organizationand we started to create a way to
(15:39):
reach out to our customers. Andso that process started from being customer centering
before we lifted any fingers, wewent out and reached and got together with
customers and asked them again. Itwas focused in the beginning. Service we
were focused in on. Our productwe were focusing on was our technical serves
(16:00):
contracts that we already had a businessoperating. We had belower than than industry
average renewal rates on though, sothere was there was headroom there for us
to grow and it was already businessline we had in place, so it
was natural for us to focus ourinitial Customer Successful Organization in that area.
So first thing we did was goout and start talking to these customers and
(16:22):
find out why are you renewing yourservice contracts? Why aren't you renewing your
service contracts? Initially there had beenfor a number of years people running around
thinking, Bowie, we've got theselower than industry norm renewal rates on our
service contracts. Why is it?Is it? The naming of it?
Is it? The price point?Is what? We included a sort of
the classic marketing you know, fourps, right, And when we talked
(16:44):
to customers, it turns out theanswer was none of the above. The
answer was, well, I didn'teven know I how service contractor we knew
right it was? It was.It was that basic. But until people
went out and started talking to thecustomer that we found out what the route
caused was so as simple as Ididn't know. So we also then started
talking to partners to find out whatworks for them when it comes to working
(17:08):
with their customers and Cisco working withCisco directly. All these sorts of things,
based on that, we were ableto do to put together journey mapping,
starting with the moments that matter,the milestones that those moments that matter
are inflection points with customers that reallymake a difference in their doing business with
us and with their partners. Andbased on that, we then built out
(17:30):
the rest of the journey map andthen layered on top of that the content
map for right, what information viawhich channels, at what time do we
need to get in front of ourcustomers and in what medium? Right do
they want videos explaining things? Dothey want written documentation, do they want
(17:51):
how to guides? What do weneed to do and some of it?
And then doing an internal assessment ofwhat we already have, what's the gap,
what do we need to create?And then further on top of that
what we call the automation map,So this is what's the engine, what's
the it engine that we need toput in place so that we can orchestrate
the connection points, orchestrate the pullingof data from this part of the business
(18:15):
or that part of the business intoa data lake and threading it together and
then being able to get it tocustomers via the direct channel. And then
Cisco, as I mentioned, beinga partner driven company with you selling through
partners, we had to take intoaccount how are we going to do all
this with our partners as well?In a way that serves their business and
(18:36):
serves our customers business. And thatwas a requirement not only because that's our
business model being partner centric, butalso again from the customer standpoint, they
oftentimes don't make a distinction between Ciscoand the partner to them as one of
the saying why don't you guys getyour act together? Why does your right
(18:57):
hand not know what you're left andis doing? So we had to figure
out a way to not only buildthe journey map with the milestones and the
automation, the content, etc.But also build in a process for us
to be able to reach out tocustomers jointly with our partners and then thread
the data so that we're sharing informationnot only with customers, but with our
(19:18):
partners and with our own internal teamswho are customer facing. Man, I've
got like fifteen follow up zones thatI would like to explore as I have
to like in my mind of activelythinking about which one to pursue. First
of all, I just want tosay I love the distinction you made there
that the customer doesn't make the distinction, like calling that out specifically. It's
(19:40):
so relevant to so many people inso many different businesses, like when we
are building stacks of things or ordersof operations. Even when things go outside
our bounds, the customer doesn't knowor care, and even withinside our bounds.
Another reason we started the show isto kind of like minimize the siloing
effect that can happen even inside ahealthy culture, because customer doesn't care which
team member or what organization, orhow you're organized, or you know,
(20:04):
these types of things. We needto own all of it inside and outside
our organization, create one seamless experiencethat makes sense from the customer's perspective,
not to our own. And Ithink that's probably one tip that I would
offer folks, just based on havingconversations with people like you, is that
when we do this mapping, themap is not for you. The map
(20:26):
is for the customer, and weneed to figure out how to fulfill it.
So I guess where I want togo here is back to the beginning.
Do you have any and this doesn'thave to be specific to that initial
initiative, but do you have anyadvice for folks about how to how often
or how to conduct or how toblend the input of multiple people doing customer
(20:48):
interviews? Any tips on blending thedifferent ways we can collect, in particular
here the literal voice of customer,because I appreciate the call out to that
too. You can't just read abunch of surveys and look at a bunch
of data. You need to talkto people and hear not just what they're
saying, but what they're not saying, and how they're saying, that things
they're saying, and does other distinctthings. There any tips on customer interviews
(21:11):
and literal voice of the customer?Sure, I mean we could do We
could do multiple podcasts on just thistopic. So high level summary the thoughts
that come to mind. Under one, you have to do it. What
I mean by that is you can'tjust talk about it. You can't just
talk about it and not do it. You can't just pay it lip service
and say, yes, we havea robust Voice of the Customer program.
(21:33):
You actually have to be intentional inyour approach to the voice, to gathering
and to disseminating in a closed loopprocess internal to your organization the voice of
the customer what it means. Sothat's step one is being intentional and do
it. Step two is to include, to so identify and include the multiple
(21:56):
parts of your organization where customer conversationsare taking place. So it's your CX
organization, no matter how large orsmall it is. It's your sales organization,
it's your customer service organization. It'syour data and analytics team that's tracking
the digital breadcrumbs as your customers cometo your website and various parts of your
(22:19):
website or your community where they're lookingat webinars. Ideally you're looking outside the
organization as well, and you're lookingat social media platforms that they may be
participating in. So not a bigbrother way, but to understand the voice
of the customer, because what thecustomer says is oftentimes with the customer things
(22:41):
and oftentimes will surprise people in yourown organization, but sometimes they may say
one thing and do a different thing. We all do this in our lives.
So getting multiple viewpoints in there whenwe go out and talk to customers,
we also talk to sellers who areworking with those customers to validate are
you seeing the same thing that thesecustomers are saying. So working across your
(23:04):
organization and if possible, outside ofyour organization is step two, and then
step three is figure out a waydoesn't have to be a complex technologically supported
solution, although it may be,but figuring out a way to share the
information internally, and that's documenting theresults of those conversations with customers and sharing
(23:29):
them, whether that's just sharing thaton an internal collaboration site, a Slack
site, a WebEx site, ayou know, dropbox, whatever it might
be, or sharing videos of customerconversation JAF. Oftentimes it's then going out
and reaching out to different teams internallythat have a stake in understanding the customer
(23:52):
and literally bringing in customers to intothose conversations. So we bring customers that
we work with as part of reachingafter customers having conversations and won't ask them,
hey, can we bring you into meet with a sales team or
other parts of the CX organization,or depending on who they are, can
we bring you in to talk toour executive leadership team. In some cases,
(24:14):
we'll even take executives out of theoffice literally into the customer's office so
that they're shadowing a customer or walkingthrough the hospital if it's the hospital's customer,
to understand what the customers businesses challengesare that we are trying to drive
value to solve for right. Sothere's nothing like actually hearing from a customer
(24:37):
and again from our case the partneras well, so multiple ways to share
the customer information. I've got awhole power point slide deck of one hundred
slides that are just customer quotes.It could be as simple as that.
So but that's step three. It'sfiguring out what your process is going to
be to take the information you've gleanedand sharing that internally. Because if you
(25:00):
do those three steps, then you'relikely to get much greater buy in from
the rest of the people in yourorganization who will now be interested in sharing
their customer notes from a particular conversation. Or you might have a seller who
puts more thorough notes into the CRMcontact that you have for that customer than
(25:22):
they might otherwise because they know thatthose notes are going to be used,
and they know how they're going tobe used, so there's value to They
understand the value to the organization andhow that's going to circle back to them.
So getting people's buying to actually participatein the process will come from following
those three steps. Really really welldone. That's a great roundup and it's
(25:42):
relevant to anyone listening to this episode, no matter the size of your organization.
It's a very practical approach, andyou just do it in an appropriately
scaled manner. I also appreciate yourcall out to direct human to human interaction
up to and including going to thecustomer in real life in person. It's
(26:02):
so interesting how we can be essentiallybedazzled by all of the digital capabilities,
but ultimately some of the best andmost valuable information is going to either come
from or be validated by that directhuman to human interaction. Here another spot
I'd like to go, and youcan maybe do a version of that if
you're up for it, on identifyingmoments that matter and perhaps even sharing with
(26:27):
us a little bit of your ownthought process on how do we decide whether
or not that is going to beone of those automated touch points. If
so, kind of what media willwe use to do that? And or
should this be a human to humanmoment, Should this be one of us
picking up the phone and giving thema call or something else like that.
Anything you want to share about momentsthat matter, and it doesn't have to
(26:48):
be as beautifully structured as philast response, unless you have that at hand.
So first off, you mentioned digitalversus human and what's the balance, and
obviously that that change is depending onthe customer and the day, etc.
But I'll point out that research showsthat seventy five percent of B to B
customers I suspect it's even higher forB two C customers, seventy five percent
(27:14):
prefer a digital first approach. Theywant a digital first self serve approach.
Let me get the information I want. And this is this is for you
know, traditionally simple you know,low cost, low risk purchasing decisions.
It's also for very complicated decisions,complex enterprise networking decisions, home buying,
(27:36):
a big important purchases. Customers stillwant a digital first self serve capability with
the human fallback when they when theyneed it right, they want to know
that that possibility is there. Sowith that as a as a foundational part
of this conversation, the moments thatmatters. Having those conversations with customers really
identify the moments that matter, becauseagain it's from the customer standpoint, and
(27:59):
every time we go in to havea conversation with a customer, thinking in
advance, oh, here the momentsthat matter let's let's make sure we're asking
probing questions around this particular moment.Then we often find that, you know,
we're about seventy five percent right,and we missed a quarter of the
really important matters. So some examplesof those moments that matter are things from
during the purchasing process customers prospects,whether they're existing customers or new potential customers,
(28:26):
making it easy for them to findthe information that they're looking for and
finding it from sources that they trust. So in some cases that means the
marketing material on the company's website.But even then, which seems fairly basic.
So many company websites, especially largercompanies that have been around for a
(28:47):
few years, they've may be grownthrough some acquisitions. The websites have grown
in an organic, non coordinated way, and it could be very difficult to
do something as basic as finding basicproduct spects about a product. Will this
work with what I have already?The second area that customers want to typically
(29:08):
want to get information from in atrustworthy source from the customer's eyes, is
current customers of the same company andof the same product, so a customer
community. So just talk about fromCisco standpoint. Our website is our largest
digital asset. We get fifty millionunique visitors a year. Our Cisco community
(29:29):
is our second largest digital asset.We get fourteen million unique visitors a year.
And customers go there and prospects gothere to figure out what a current
customers saying about what I'm interested inusing it, and not only that,
but how easy or difficult will itbe for me to get the value that
(29:49):
the company is saying I'm going toget out of it? Right. So,
Gardner research shows that the number onebuying criteria for prospects is and functionality.
Will this product do what I wantedto do? Doesn't have that capability?
The number three and number two issimilar to that. It's sort of
the category of it. Number threein the buying criteria for prospects is not
(30:15):
price, It is perceived experience,the perceived customer experience when they buy it.
It's one thing for a product tobe a great price and to have
all the capabilities I need to doX. It's another thing for me to
actually be able to get that valueout of it. So customers go to
the community to talk with other customersas a trusted resource. So that's One
(30:38):
moment that matters during the buying processis enabling customers to easily get access to
the resources they need from the sourcesthat they trust. Another key moment that
matters is onboarding. And I knowsome of the other guests I've talked about
this as well, But if youdon't on board onto a customer, if
(30:59):
your first interaction with a product ora service is difficult, then that colors
everything else, all right, Thenthat vendor is fighting an uphill battle just
to get to neutral ground with you, a neutral sentiment with you, right,
And you don't want to have yourcustomers thinking it's so hard to do
business with you. So onboarding.Look, I've gone through this and I've
(31:21):
done my research. I bought it. I'm ready to go. If I
don't hear from you for a monthbecause you just haven't gotten around and say,
hey, welcome and here's how youget started, I may not have
taken the action to get started onmy own. And now it's a month
later, I'm like, what didI buy? Why did I buy it?
What am I supposed to do?First? And then if I take
a couple of steps, but Iwant to hear from you again for another
(31:42):
month, Like where was I beforein the process, and uh so,
onboarding is a critical moment that mattersfor people, and if you don't get
that right, you're fighting an uphillbattle with your customers from the whole rest
of the life cycle. Yeah.Really well done, And I'll just plus
up this on boarding piece and evenstart with that window where buyer's remorse might
(32:02):
set in, you know where,even without any interaction, I'm starting to
anticipate that the experience I thought Iwas going to get. Just tying back
to your other great example of amoment that matters, like, you know,
I'm led to the idea that iwill be able to achieve this value
as I'm not going to be insanelydifficult. This is going to be a
reasonable thing. So I read threepeople talk about it, and this doesn't
a grate wall with my tech stack. There's still that lingering doubt, you
(32:25):
know, between I've committed and I'mbeing onboarded. That that's part of that
experience as well. Okay, veryspecific question for you, and it is
a little bit self serving, butI would love your perspective on it.
I think what you shared there aboutthe preference for a self service experience,
even on large purchases, complex salescycles, significant commitments. It really speaks
(32:52):
to my mind to an enhanced valueand power of video, in part because
it has some human element, butit can be very it can be completely
a synchronous and therefore check this kindof self service box where I'm getting this
communication, but it's not a highpriority for me this week or even these
two weeks. So I'm gonna putit in a folder and then one day
(33:14):
I'm gonna go access all these things. But I can have a different style
of connection and relationship and education thanI could by just getting a series of
emails that link out to a supportside or a blog post or something else.
Any thoughts on video in any ofthese moments that mattered, perhaps even
because I know you all do alot of video work too, how you
(33:34):
all are thinking about its implementation andperhaps how that's changed over the past five
to ten years. Sure, that'sa great question. Video video is a
game changer. I'm surprised a littlebit that it is still a game changer.
I'm surprised we're not farther along thanwhere we are now. But it's
a game changer because it personalizes thecommunication with customers. It is video and
(33:57):
two forums. I'll put it.There's the show me how to use something.
I'm buying a true story, I'mbuying a backyard patio or our northern
California sounder has been a little coolerthan usual this year, so I'm buying
just a you know, a heaterfor outside, and went and watched videos
just last night around how do Iset this up? How do I use
it? So as amplifying two things, the value of video and the value
(34:22):
of helping me understand what my experienceis going to be while I'm still in
the prospect purchasing stage that we werejust talking about. So there's one show
me how to use this product orthe service or that sort of thing.
I think even even as powerful isthe human to human video connection. The
ability to personalize the conversation everything fromjust a quick high I'm your sales rep,
(34:49):
I'm your CSM, I'm you know, whomever puts a face to the
name. That even that basic levelof personalization to just being able to understand
empathy and and understand what people aresaying with their body language. So video
is huge. I'll go back whenwe started the global Customer Success Organization at
Cisco twelve years ago. Fast forwardfrom that point about five years and then
(35:14):
we started, after we'd kind ofbuilt our foundational elements, we started to
focus more intently on changing the culturewithin Cisco, and part of that was
working with our sales organization, andwe started teaching them how to become digital
sellers, right and again helping themunderstand the shift in the customer base and
(35:34):
how they can respond to that andtake advantage of them. And a big
part of that was using video andbomb bomb and other tools make it so
easy to do that now, right, So that's a technicological change that has
enabled the ease of using video.So we started working with our sales organization
so that they can understand the advantagehow to do that. And the ones
(35:57):
who got really good at it gamechanging for them, right, they're the
ones at the President's Club. Yeah, so good, Thank you for that.
And I agree, I'm surprised thatdespite my best efforts and the efforts
of so many other people, thatit is still a bit of a novelty
for a lot of people. Ithink it comes down to human vulnerability.
I think that's our single biggest impedimentto adoption of this personal style beyond the
(36:17):
how to style. But that's aseparate topic for a separate conversation. In
fact, there are other conversations youand I should have in this context,
specifically about selling some of this changeinternally from a cultural perspective. I'd also
love to go, and we justdon't have time for it right now,
but i'd love to get into howyou all approached, you know, the
(36:38):
story that you shared very well earlierin this conversation around you know, we
took this particular business problem people ontechnical service contracts and built around that.
I would assume that then you tookon this thing and that thing, and
this thing and that thing, andeach one requires its own set of customer
interviews, and each one requires itsown journey app and each one requires its
(37:00):
own moments that matter, and eventhose moments that matter a variations to your
point earlier of like, well,we're still only hitting at seventy five percent
of the time with these moments.We need to have some nuance there for
folks who are listening. Andrew isnodding his head, and so yes,
I assume that this is the directionyou approximately approximately when you are spot on
with everything. Yes, you've justlaid out the last twelve years awesome.
(37:23):
So I guess you know. BeforeI get to some questions, I always
love asking every guest the last lastzone. I'd love for you to speak
to because I intended to do itearlier, but I just wanted to keep
everything going. Talk about the differenceand the similarity between or the relationship between
customer success and customer experience. Youalready hint at at a little bit earlier
(37:45):
talking about customer service and marketing comingtogether for CX, But for clarity's sake,
I'd love for you to speak tocustomer success as a team of function,
a set of deliverables, etc.Versus customer experience, like where does
one diverge from the other and wheredo they overlap? So that's that is
(38:06):
a question that a lot of peopleare asking. My take is that the
world of CX, if it werea person, it's reached the teenage years.
And what I mean by that isthere's a there there now right,
it's grown. It was birth fromas I mentioned, sort of customer service
and marketing. Now, you know, twelve or so a year later,
he's thirteen years later, it's ateenager where everyone knows it's there, everyone's
(38:28):
talking about it, but it doesn'tknow what it's going to be when it's
grows up. It doesn't know whereit's going to live in an organization.
Is it going to be a separatefunction. Is it going to live in
marketing? Is it going to livein some cases I've seen it engineering other
parts of the organization. Where's itgoing to live? What's it going to
encompass? What's it going to becalled? To get to your question?
So, to me, customer experienceis the broader term, is the all
(38:52):
encompassing turner. Customer success is thepart that focuses more on adoption specifically,
whereas customer experience encompasses the pre purchasedpart of it, which we touched on
earlier, the adoption component, therenewal component, as well as the overall
perception component related to delivering on thepromise of the brand that we started off
(39:15):
the conversation with, Well done.I appreciate that another conversation and I could
have is about ex Cisco, butthat leads me to another episode. If
you've enjoyed this time with Andrew,I'd love to point to two other episodes.
The first one I'm thinking of isepisode one twenty one with Steve Cox
and Christie or Nellis of Cisco.I don't think. I think Steve is
somewhere else now, but I thinkChristy is still there. But that was
(39:37):
one of the rare interviews where Iinterviewed two people at one time and we
talked about three ways to elevate employeeexperience from the world's best workplace. That's
something I didn't even mention this episodeis how well regarded Cisco is from an
ex perspective in particular. And Iknow as a sixteen and a half year
team member, Andrew, You've gota lot you could share on that for
(39:58):
another conversation. So that's one twentyone with Steve Cox and Christie or Ellis
of Cisco. And then a littlemore recently episode one ninety five with Lewis
Angel Lalan. He's the VP ofCustomer Voice at American Express and we called
that one Customer Voice and Sentiment Analysis. So where you and I were briefly
Andrew on qualitative and quantitative feedback voiceof the customer, how do we incorporate
(40:21):
it into not just our processes,but how do we build it into the
culture of the organization. Lewis andI had a great conversation on that on
episode one ninety five before I LetYou Go. Andrew two questions I always
love asking. The first is wouldyou please give a thank you to someone
who's had a positive impact on yourlife or career. I'll mention two people
(40:42):
who are my mentors. Was mydad, not only as a person and
as a father, but in aprofessional sense as well. My dad was
a dad, was a professional storyteller. He was a screenwriter and for much
of my childhood worked from home,so I got to see his thought process
and his storyboarding and all. SoI really learned how to tell stories and
(41:02):
how to influence people, which playeda role in me moving into marketing first
and then customer experience overall here inthe rest of my career. The second
one, much more direct from apersonal from a professional standpoint, is a
man named Ted Michael. Ted Michaelwas an early public relations expert. Everybody
speaks about we just mckinna. Intech pr world, it was Michael McKenna
(41:24):
was the name of the firm,and they put Silicon Valley on the map,
and I had the opportunity to workwith Ted for a few years and
he really took my game from hereto top level when it came to how
to communicate, how to think.So those are two folks that I owe
a lot to. Awesome. Howabout a company or brand that you personally
(41:45):
appreciate for the experience that they deliverfor you as a customer. Yeah,
the one that immediately stands out tome is Peloton for multiple reasons. They're
so easy to do business with fromevery step of the way. So the
unspoken part of our conversation here Ethanhas been it has to have to make
it easy to do business with itwith your customers. Peloton does that from
deciding what to buy, to buyingit, to using it, etc.
(42:07):
So one is the ease of doingbusiness. Two is the multi channel or
I used to say multi platform elementand how it's all threaded together for a
seamless experience. So whether you've gotwhatever the piece of hardware, you have,
a rower, a tread, abike, and you've got an app
on your phone and you can useyou can access information on the web,
(42:30):
all of that data, what classesyou've taken, what's coming up next,
like all of that is threaded seamlessly. So to me, that sort of
multi platform and the data threading behindthat is a critical element of any customer
experience process, and I think theydo it really well. Great example and
well told. I have heard youknow. I was so happy to hear
(42:52):
you walk that out. You know, Peloton of course had some negative headlines
for some kind of a post pandemichangover, but we've heard Peloton at this
moment of these conversations before, during, and of course after kind of the
core window of the pandemic period.And so really well done there. And
I also appreciate how you call themout as a model for how to integrate
(43:13):
these things effectively on behalf of ourcustomers. For people who've reached this point,
Andrew, they've enjoyed their time withyou. Otherwise they wouldn't be here
right now if they want to connectwith you, or they want to learn
more about Cisco, or they wantto learn more about the work that you're
doing. Any place that you sendpeople to follow up on this, yeah,
the best place to reach me.I would love to talk to anyone
and everyone about this topic. It'sit's near and jar my heart. Best
(43:35):
place to reaching me is on LinkedInAndrew Caruthers c R O t H e
R S and that's the best placeto reach me. I've also on Twitter
for the moment at AJ Carruthers awesome. He is Andrew Carruthers spelled as he
just spelled it. I am EthanButte. Last name is b Eute.
Hit us up on LinkedIn. I'llalso have these linked up in the description
(43:57):
of these episodes. We also writeall of them up and drive up in
some video highlights at bombomb dot comFlash podcast. This one's going to be
around number. It's episode two sixty, so look for episode two sixty at
bombob dot com slash Podcast. Andrew, thank you so much for your time.
As I said, I've got likethree more conversations I look forward to
having with you sometime and I appreciatethis time together too. Thank you so
(44:19):
much even I really enjoyed it.Look forward to the next ones. Every
single day, you're entrusting some ofyour most important and most valuable messages to
plain black text on a plain whitescreen, to faceless, typed out text.
It doesn't differentiate you, it doesn'tbuild trust and rapport, and it
doesn't convey feelings, thoughts, arguments, ideas or details nearly as well as
(44:44):
you do. As a result,your customer experience, employee experience, and
business outcomes suffer. So it's timeto put you back into your digital communication.
It's time to restore human connection acrossthe digital divide with Bombomb video messages.
They have the clarity and richness ofin person meetings and video calls,
(45:06):
and the convenience of asynchronous emails,text messages, LinkedIn messages, and Slack
messages. For clearer communication, humanconnection, and higher conversion, try Bombomb
Record, screen, record, sendand track videos in Gmail, Outlook,
LinkedIn, Salesforce outreach, zendesk,iPhone, Android, and beyond. Try
(45:32):
Bombomb absolutely free or learn how itworks for your team or your entire company.
Check it out at bombomb dot com. Thanks for listening to the Customer
Experience Podcast. Remember the single mostimportant thing you can do today is to
create and deliver a better experience foryour customers. Continue learning the latest strategies
(45:53):
and tactics by subscribing right now inyour favorite podcast player, or visit bombomb
dot com slash podcast
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