The Advocates for Afghan Women, Sola Mahfouz & Malaina Kapoor

Together, Sola Mahfouz and Malaina Kapoor share the harrowing story of Sola's journey from Afghanistan. Sola faced severe restrictions on women's education under the Taliban. Despite these challenges, she pursued self-education, learning English and advanced subjects like algebra and physics through online resources like Khan Academy. Sola's determination led her to cross Pakistan's dangerous border to take the SAT, securing a spot at Arizona State University. Her journey highlights the importance of education and resilience. Malaina Kapoor and Sola tell her story in their book Defiant Dreams. Malaina emphasizes the need for awareness and support for Afghan women, especially since the Taliban's resurgence in 2021, which has imposed severe restrictions on women's rights. Learn from Sola's journey and choose which action will help you pursue your own courageous path.

Action Principles

Pick one to do this week:

1. Create a positive, calm environment. When things are stressful or chaotic, be the person to bring positive energy to the situation. ACTION: Create a list of positive phrases or actions to use during stressful or chaotic moments.

2. Improve communication skills. Communication is a powerful tool, whether it's learning the language of a new country you moved to or expanding your vocabulary. ACTION: Take a class to learn a new language or improve your native language by expanding your vocabulary.

3. Invest in your education. Grow your career by learning new skills. Numerous online options, like LinkedIn Learning, are available. ACTION: Take a course based on a skill you're interested in learning.

4. Explore other cultures. Enrich your life by learning about other countries and cultures around the world. ACTION: Read an educational book about a country you're interested in.

Guest Resources

Learn more about Sola's story at DefiantDreams.com. You can also follow both Sola Mahfouz and Malaina Kapoor on LinkedIn.

Suggested LinkedIn Learning Course

Time Management Fundamentals

Dave Crenshaw develops productive leaders in Fortune 500 companies, universities, and organizations of every size. He has appeared in Time magazine, USA Today, FastCompany, and the BBC News. His courses on LinkedIn Learning have been viewed tens of millions of times. His five books have been published in eight languages, the most popular of which is The Myth of Multitasking—a time management bestseller. As an author, speaker, and online instructor, Dave has transformed the lives and careers of hundreds of thousands around the world. DaveCrenshaw.com

Episode Transcript

Malaina Kapoor (00:00):
Yes, the SAT wasn't offered in Afghanistan.
It was only in Pakistan, and soshe crossed one of the world's
most dangerous borders. Shecrossed into Pakistan and
managed to take the last spot inan SAT administration there and
take the exam. I was

Dave Crenshaw (00:15):
just gonna say hearing that story, I'm never
going to allow my children tocomplain about taking one of
those tests again in highschool. In this episode, you'll
get to know sola Mahfouz andMalena Kapoor, the advocates for
Afghan women, and you'll hearthem tell the story of how sola
risked everything for educationand was able to escape a brutal

(00:36):
regime in Afghanistan. I'm DaveCrenshaw, and this is my success
Show. Welcome back, friends, tothe Dave Crenshaw Success Show.
This is where I speak to some ofthe most successful people I've
met in my life's journey. AndI'm on a mission to find
universal principles of successthat can help you and my family

(01:00):
succeed. In case, it's yourfirst time here and you're not
familiar. Not familiar with me.
I'm a best selling author. Ispeak around the world of
Fortune 500 companies, and I'vetaught millions of people how to
be successful through my onlinecourses, especially on LinkedIn.
Learning with this show, Iwanted to create something a
little different, a legacyproject, primarily to help my
kids succeed. I was concernedabout helping them learn things

(01:20):
that could help them no matterwhat career path they took, and
I thought you'd enjoy learningalong with them. And I interview
people who have achieved successin a variety of ways and have
multifaceted success in theirlife, not just in their career.
And Today's guests are trulyremarkable and an example of how

(01:40):
you can find success even in themost difficult circumstances. So
as you listen to today'sepisode, look for something you
can do, an action you can takethis week to make my guest
success story a part of yoursuccess story. Sola Mahfouz and
Malena Kapoor co authored thebook defiant dreams, which tells

(02:02):
the story of solar's courageousescape from Afghanistan through
education. Sola was born inAfghanistan and immigrated to
the US in 2016 to attendcollege. She is currently a
quantum computing researcher atTufts University, Quantum
Information Group. And Milena isa writer from Redwood City,

(02:26):
California, and she currentlyattends Stanford University.
She's received national awardsfor her poetry, personal essays
and short stories. Sola andMalena, welcome to the show.

Unknown (02:41):
Thank you so much for having us.

Dave Crenshaw (02:43):
Yeah, I'm really interested in this story because
it is different than some of theinterviews that I've done, and
what I love about it is my goalis to show how someone can be
successful with a wide type ofbackground, a variety of
different careers andexperiences. And wow, your

(03:04):
experience sola is very, verycompelling, and I think shows
that you can be successful inspite of perhaps the worst
adversity that one canexperience. So first of all,
where are you both located?
Today?

Unknown (03:18):
We're both in Stanford, California. Today.

Dave Crenshaw (03:21):
Great. What a beautiful part of the country. I
really love the bay area outthere. All right. So let's just
dive right into this. Sola, talkto us a little bit about what
your life was like when you wereyoung, when you were first
growing up. That was inAfghanistan, correct? Yeah.

Unknown (03:39):
So I was born in 1996 that's the time when Taliban, my
first time, came into power. Andat that time to, you know, just
like now, women were not allowedto go to school and but luckily,
you know, I was a kid, and so Iwas shielded by the darkness
outside. And then in 2001 the USand its ally, topple the Taliban

(04:04):
and prop up the new government,and the school reopened for
girls, and I start going toschool. And so that was the
like, the first kind of decadeof my childhood. And

Dave Crenshaw (04:17):
when going to school, there is school just for
girls, was it separated from theboys? Yeah, it

Unknown (04:23):
was like half time for boys and half time for girls.
But, you know, it was justAfghanistan went through such a
civil war and dark times of theTaliban and the school. It
wasn't like an intellectuallythriving environment, and I hate
it. Iwas just gonna say in the book,

(04:43):
it starts and finishes with thestory of the Taliban, which is a
group that's back in power now,but first came to power in the
mid 90s in Afghanistan. Theirhome base, essentially, was the
city where sola grew up inKandahar, Afghanistan, and. And
so those early years, eventhough, at the time, she was
such a young child, she wasn'treally able to process what was

(05:04):
going on around her, it wascharacterized by this really
brutal regime that was trying toimpose a version of extremist
Law and Order on a country thathad spent decades embroiled in
wars and civil war. And so thatmeant things like executions in
soccer stadiums. It meant thatgirls weren't allowed to go to

(05:25):
school. It meant that thingslike television or photographs
or even dolls were banned andpunishable with violence. But
you know, as solo mentioned, andas we write about in the book,
there's this real contrastbetween someone becoming,
growing into themselves. Being ayoung child, we tell stories in
the book about her playing withher sisters, going outside in

(05:46):
that thick heat to play in thefountain, but at the same time,
being shaped very quickly bythat extreme environment around
her, which, as she mentioned,starts to change, but but was
really defining period.

Dave Crenshaw (06:02):
One thing that I've learned as a parent and
also as I reflect back on whatit was like for me, there's a
little bit of healthy blindnessthat children have where they're
kind of not fully comprehendingthe gravity of everything that's
happening around them. Was itlike that for you, or were there
instances from when you wereyoung, where you realized, wait

(06:24):
a minute, this is this is bad,this is wrong. We are being
oppressed.

Unknown (06:30):
No, I don't think there was. It's only now that I think
about it, because I think thereis. I think childhood in itself,
I think it does distance youfrom the world. And so for me,
it's almost like a parallelworld like this is how my
country is going, but this is myexperience, because I am a
child, and because you'resurrounded by the love of your

(06:51):
parents, but the siblings andeverything. So I think it does
create a distance, which I thinkis, in some sense, it's great
thing to be a child, but thenalso you feel like you're
deceived in some sense, becauseyou're like, Oh, this is my
experience, this is my memories,and then this was the reality.
And how does that compare?
Yeah, I think a reallysurprising story for me that we

(07:13):
write about in the book. Youknow, because I grew up in the
United States, it's obviouslyvery different. But we write
about how when sola was a youngchild, her father had promised
to take her out for a Coca Cola,and he was going to take her on
the street and buy her thattreat. But then suddenly she
started hearing gunfire outside,and so instead of being scared,
she just went over to the windowand shut it, because she didn't

(07:34):
want her father to hear and kindof ruin her treat. And of
course, now you recognize whatwas going on, but at the time?
Yeah, you're just a child, evenif that childhood is much more
brief for children inAfghanistan.

Dave Crenshaw (07:46):
And I do find that even though we might not
fully appreciate it or rememberit in the moment or later, it
does have an impact. We do feelthe trauma. We do experience
that from from those things.
Where did you see the impactwith your family members? For
example, you mentioned how youwanted your father to not hear
the gunshot so you could go getthe Coca Cola. Did you see your

(08:09):
mother your siblings be affectedby this in a negative way, and
sense their sadness as this wasoccurring,

Unknown (08:21):
definitely. For example, my mother, she was a
professor at Kabul University atthe time, before the Civil War
and everything. And then theCivil War happened in the
Taliban. And then, even though,like, 2001 like, you know, the
government was toppled. The newgovernment was foreign. But
Afghanistan never went back toits formal, healthy self and and

(08:43):
so I with my mother, especiallylosing everything, and then my
siblings, too for me, like, youknow, I would like close the
door, but like my one of mysister, because she at the time
of the Civil War, like her teethwould like start scattering
because of the she remember thecivil war Time. And also, like,
just my mom extra being careful,like, oh, we shouldn't laugh too

(09:05):
much, because they're going tobe outside. We're going to be
heard. So that's all, like, thiscivil war trauma that was left
behind and and I think for metoo, I think it created so many
questions that I still trying tofigure those answer out.

Dave Crenshaw (09:19):
You mentioned your mom was a professor, so my,
my assumption is that that wastaken away from her, right? She
wasn't able to do that, but thatbeing very educated, very
accomplished, she was teachingyou wonderful things and lessons
and trying to help you and buildyou up. Can you? Can you talk a

(09:41):
little bit about what herinfluence was in your life,
within the home? Yeah,

Unknown (09:47):
I think, first of all, it was very interesting, because
my mom was almost the only womanthat I knew that she was, I
mean, my aunt, but they were notliving in Afghanistan like she
was the only one educated. And Ithink the way. She talked was so
different. And like, the focuswas different, but I think more
so that. And then the storiesthat she would tell us about her

(10:07):
childhood, her going to school,and all of those things of a
different Afghanistan, I thinkthat created like this, like our
reality is not a fixed one, likethere was something different
before, and then something canbe different. And also, I think
my grandfather, my mom's father,was a huge influence and and

(10:27):
even though I get to know himthrough my mother, the story
that she told us about him, andhow high importance he put in
learning, in learning English inspecific. And he would say,
like, if you know English, it'slike opening a window to the
world. And that's what kind ofled me to start doing that.

Dave Crenshaw (10:49):
Could you share another lesson or principle that
you learned from your motherduring that time, something that
you still use today?

Unknown (10:57):
I think my mom is very, very positive and, like, even
when I was at that time, youknow, go to school and the
outside world was still, likekind of hostile, and coming back
home, there was this purityinside the home. And she did
look at life with a verypositive outlook and very
calmness, like a lot ofcalmness. And I think that's

(11:18):
something that I try to do isthat, even though, and now,
especially not now, I am, like,on a fellowship, actually going
back to Afghan history, and Iknew the history, but now I'm
kind of, like, trying to enterthe consciousness of those
times, the civil war time andall of that. And now it's even
more. I'm like, How did myparents were able to still live

(11:40):
normal life, because I for thefirst four days, like just
looking to the archive of theresearch, I just was so
depressed and unhappy and and Ithink I started to appreciate
them even more that they havegone through this period, and
yet they were able to give us anormal life. And
I think in many ways, this is astory of sola, but also her

(12:04):
mother, a story of how thedifferent moments in Afghan
history have shaped theexperiences of mothers and
daughters, and the fact thatsola's Mother experienced more
freedoms in Afghanistan thansola ever did. And now you see
that pattern repeating. And youknow, sola was born into a world
in which education wasrestricted, but I think you

(12:27):
really feel the loss of thateducation through what her
mother was going through. Forinstance, there's this story we
tell in the book about duringthe Civil War, so before sola
was even born, how her motherhad to wear a burka for the
first time. And the burka is themost restrictive garment in the
world for women. Covers you fromhead to toe. You Your eyes are

(12:49):
even covered by this meshscreen. And so her young sola's
mother's young son at that time,sola's brother saw his mom for
the first time wearing this andhe thought she actually was
blind, and he would take herhand and show her the curb and
and try and guide her around thecity. And of course, she could

(13:09):
see through those crisscrossslats a little bit. And so the
family laughed at this youngboy, you know, who thinks his
mother can't see. But I think inreality, his innocent assessment
was correct, because in thatmoment, she had lost everything,
and in a sense, she had goneblind.

Dave Crenshaw (13:27):
Wow. And that's what I'm feeling as I'm hearing
the story is how terrible thattransition would be for someone
who has had freedom to have ittaken away, and it sounds like
that's happened several times inthe last couple of decades, is
that, is that correct? Yeah,

Unknown (13:43):
yeah. I mean, it was kind of normal life. And then
the 50s thing starts connectedto the world more then, kind of
like more visible freedomstarted to appear. And then, you
know, the Civil War period, justlike put the country in a very
dystopian dimension. And thenthe Taliban then kind of

(14:05):
restored the order, but stillintroduced their own darkness.
And then the US and its ally wasthen created another kind of a
little bit of freedom, but therewas still so much still going
on. It wasn't really a freedom,freedom, and then now we're in
another period of darkness.

Dave Crenshaw (14:26):
We've talked a lot about your mother. What was
the influence of your father inyour upbringing? Yeah, so

Unknown (14:32):
my father was, you know, her, his mother was very
like strong and independentwoman, and all of her his sister
went to school outside. Sounlike other, like a lot of
other Afghan fathers inKandahar, he gave us a lot of
space for us to just who wewanted to be. And I think that's

(14:57):
like a big thing, consideringputting. Him in the context of
Afghanistan in that time, Ithink having that space not
taken away, even though, if it'sinside the house, is like
something I really likeappreciate, and yeah,

Dave Crenshaw (15:13):
that I think that's wonderful, that he
provided that opportunity foryou, which I think would would
lead to the courage that youexpressed later on, what was one
of the first moments where you,as a emerging teenager, realized
how horrible things were, howmuch you were being oppressed.

(15:34):
Can you what's, what's onemoment that stands out in your
mind where you went, Wait aminute, this is not right.

Unknown (15:41):
Yeah. So, you know, I was 11 years old. It was before
I was teenager, I was forced tostop going to school, and you
know, group of men came to ourdoor and threatened my family if
he continued going to school.
But as I mentioned, you know, Ireally didn't like school, and
so initially it felt like, Oh,now I can do even though it was,
it was a dramatic experience,but for my mother, like she saw

(16:02):
her one generation of her kidsnot getting education, but she
had so much hope for this nextgeneration of her kids to be
able to educate it, and that wasalso taken away. And she would
often say, Do you know how itfeels for an educated mother to
see her kids raised uneducated.

(16:24):
And for me, it, you know, likewhen I was 14, I began to
realize what that really meant,what especially when I would
look at I now began to have,like, so many questions, you
know, my brothers were going toschool, and I would feel like
they had this purpose. And forme, just just, like, wake up the
same day and like, what does itmean? Like, why? Why am like

(16:47):
that? And why is life like that?
And by then, there were also thepolitical atmosphere was also
getting dangerous and dangerous.
There were suicide bombingexploding, and there's, I've
just felt the world outside wasdark, and I just yeah, there was
this suffocating feeling insideme, and
I think that speaks to to howbrief childhood is for girls in

(17:13):
Afghanistan, especially growingup in a conservative city like
Kandahar, where sola was becauseessentially, you exist as a
daughter in your own home, butit was very common for girls to
be married by 16. That was thenorm. And so at that period
where sola was, we write abouthow she was essentially racing

(17:36):
towards a new identity, but thatidentity was just going to be
defined by whose husband shewas, and so losing that
education essentially becamemore than losing a place to go,
maybe a place that, as a kid,she had complicated feelings
about. It was about losingpurpose and identity.

Dave Crenshaw (17:54):
As I'm listening to this, I can't help but think
of my own daughters. I have twodaughters, one almost 15, 111
both very bright, curious andhard worker, and there's so much
potential of what they may ormay not do in the future, right?
Just excited to see that. Andthe thought of them being in a

(18:15):
place that oppresses theirability to express themselves
and to be the best version ofthemselves is just, it's
heartbreaking to hear that forthose who don't have any
context, the question I'm askingis, why, like, what is it that
this group that was in power,what is it that there is driving

(18:37):
that kind of decision to say,No, We don't want women to go to
school. Could you perhaps thisis a great question for you,
Milena, could you give us alittle bit of perspective into
what the motive is behindsomething like that? Sure,

Unknown (18:51):
and I think sola can speak to this too, but I think
it's important to understand,especially from an American
context, we sometimes think ofAfghanistan just in terms of
2001 when the United Statesentered. And we see the Taliban
as the evil in the United Statesdefeating them. And of course,
in many ways, the Taliban was aliteral embodiment of evil. But
it's important to understand thehistory that came before that,

(19:15):
which was essentially a civilwar characterized by extreme,
brutality. First of all, intensebombing campaigns in fighting
between these different warlordgroups. And really a level of
almost animalistic cruelty thatit is almost it's unspeakable.
And I think sola is doingresearch on that time period

(19:36):
now, and we did a lot, I did alot of that. You know, before
starting this book, really thesociety had regressed so far, I
would noteven say regressed. It felt like
a dystopian dimension.
Yeah, absolutely. And so on thatthat was the day to day life
that people were living. Andthen the Taliban come on the
stage, and they have a couple ofreally high profile moments

(19:59):
where they. They rescue womenwho are victims of abuse, or
they kind of take overterritory, and so they start to
look like law and order in aplace that's actually that's
just terrorized by violence. Butwhat became very clear very
quickly is that theirinterpretation of law and order

(20:21):
and rule of law was an adherenceto an extremist interpretation
of Islam. That's why, you know,images or televisions weren't
allowed. That's why there werethese ancient punishments like
stoning for women, and that'swhy they forbade girls from
going to school.

Dave Crenshaw (20:39):
Is it because a woman should have a particular
place in life and not beeducated like what is the from
their perspective, why women inparticular get singled out like
this?

Unknown (20:52):
So the thing is, like, you're to look at to where
they're coming from. So they'recoming from, like, far away
villages of Afghanistan, andthat's what they have seen, is
that their mother, theirgrandmothers, they didn't go to
school, like they were able tobring order with that world view
to Afghanistan. And so why wouldyou just give up on that? Like,

(21:13):
that's you. So I think trying tounderstand that makes it at
least that's for me, helpsunderstand them like Yeah,

Dave Crenshaw (21:22):
and I asked the question because clearly, it's
wrong, but I always find itinteresting to understand what's
driving it in order tounderstand how to perhaps
overcome it. The best way toovercome is by understanding it.
So let's get into that a littlebit. So you were not allowed to
go to school. Your mother's veryeducated, so I'm assuming
education was still taking placeat home, or were there other

(21:44):
ways that you were gettingschooling during that time?

Unknown (21:48):
Yeah, so I did go to some English courses, but that
too was brief. But when Istopped going to school, it
wasn't like, oh, like, I'm Ihave to, like, educate myself.
Like it wasn't that thing. It'sonly when I was 14 I began to
see my brother's lifedifferently, and then I also
start questioning life, why? Whyit's the meaning of life? Why do

(22:08):
I exist? Why even the worldexists? All of those big
questions that, like, started tocloud my mind, and I went
through like this phase of notmaking anything stands. And then
I remember my grandfather words,like, if you know English, it's
like opening a window to theworld. And he was self educated,

(22:29):
and, you know, he was poor. Andso if he was outside and he
would see, like, white papers,he would just, like, collect it,
even if it was from a garbageand so I started comparing my
life to him. And I was like, ifhe could do it at that time, you
know, he didn't have internet,he didn't have TV, he didn't he
had, like, very, very fewresources, and yet, he was able
to get educated and get to avery high level. And I was, I

(22:52):
started learning English, and itwas really hard. And I would
like, listen for hours and hourswith BBC and CNN, and an hour or
two like I would understand aword, and
I think it's important, too tounderstand that as a woman in
her household, even at thatyoung age, sola was required to
cook and clean, and in manyways, all the women in that

(23:15):
household, their lives revolvedaround that cycle. And so even
when she began her education, itwas listening to the BBC through
earbuds while cooking andcleaning and doing dishes. It
was eventually using a slow dialup internet connection in the
middle of the night because thatwas the only, only chance she
had. And I think it's alsoimportant to think about, you

(23:39):
know, this is something we writeabout a lot in the book is that,
yes, her mother was veryeducated, but that didn't always
translate into just a blanketenthusiasm for sola pursuing her
education. And the reason forthat is there's this conflict,
right? Because education isdangerous for girls in
Afghanistan. It was then, and itis now, first of all, you know,

(24:02):
a group of men had already cameto their door to try and stop
that education. So already therewas that physical, immediate
danger. But also in a worldwhere girls are married by 16,
where their economic security iscompletely dependent on their
marriage, then teaching a girlto think about philosophy, to

(24:23):
understand her place in theworld, in the world outside of
Kandahar, Afghanistan, tounderstand that other places,
you know, people livedifferently. That is, that's
dangerous. And her mother hadsuffered with what can happen
when you have the world open toyou and then have it closed
again, and she didn't want thatfor her daughter either. So it

(24:44):
was a battle within herself.

Dave Crenshaw (24:46):
You used that word twice, dangerous in what
specific way? What was theconsequence? What would happen
to a woman that is educated andit's known,

Unknown (24:57):
I would say it's less of a physical. You're but more
of like a man, because whenyou're aware of the world, when
when you know that whateveraround you is happening is not
normal, and there can besomething different, I think
inside yourself, you'resuffocating and and when you
kind of, the lesser you see, themore you accept. So yeah, it's

(25:18):
more complex, butat the same time, I mean, there
were there stories we writeabout in the book, about other
girls who who were going toschool and were suddenly
followed. You know, violence waseverywhere in Kandahar, and so
just because the United Stateshad defeated the Taliban didn't
mean that there weren'tsympathizers, so many

(25:39):
sympathizers in a city that hadbeen the birthplace of the
Taliban. And so even if therewasn't a concerted effort to go
door to door and find girls whoare educating themselves, the
danger was essentially alwayspresent.

Dave Crenshaw (25:54):
You mentioned things like the BBC and
accessing the internet at night.
Was that all forbidden? Was itforbidden just to women? What
was the policy or the law atthat time? There

Unknown (26:06):
wasn't, like, a policy by the state or anything, but
it's just like inside the home,like my brothers were going to
school, so they would use theinternet and I would and because
I had to also do chores andstuff, so I have to, I could do
it in the night. And the samething with BBC, like, it was
there, like, as long as we had,like, electricity, that was the
problem. But if you hadelectricity, I could just sit

(26:29):
and watch. Ithink also, it's important to
remember that Seoul, as much asSeoul's childhood unfolded when
the US forces were in thecountry and the Afghan
government was in power, and sothe repression wasn't
necessarily happening from thestate level, but what we do
write about in the book is thefact that, yes, this is a story

(26:49):
about incredible perseveranceand sola's will to find an
education, but also much of thestory is predicated on luck,
because most families didn'thave access to the internet. It
was expensive. It was new. Theywere using dial up at the same
time, when I was, you know,growing up in the United States,
logging on in a minute, and theyused a generator, oftentimes for

(27:11):
electricity,oftentimes all the time. Yeah,
for electricity.
What

Dave Crenshaw (27:17):
was an everyday day like for you in that
situation, take us a little bitfrom the beginning of your day
to the end at night. How wereyou spending your time? Because
you weren't allowed to go toschool. So what was happening?
Yeah, so

Unknown (27:32):
when I started educating myself, I would think
about, like, what time, youknow, I don't have to do like,
you know, we have big families.
Have to do, like, work, likecooking and all of this. So I
would think about, okay, ourorganizer in the morning, I have
more energy so I can learn more.
So I would wake up early study,like, read or, you know, listen

(27:53):
to something, watch an Englishvideo. And then there were time,
you know, we would have guests.
I have to, like, prepare for theguests, or just like normal
household chores, and most ofthe day would spend in that and
then in the night again, like Iwould sit and learn. So, you
know, it was like I had to carveout a space where I can just do
whatever I want and and it'salso because you also have to

(28:15):
keep your motivation it. It'snot like I will knew that, oh,
I'll go one day, I'm gonna go toAmerica, and that's where I will
study, and that's what I'mpreparing for. Like, I did not
know what I was preparing for. Ijust wanted to have control of
my life, control my day, andjust learn and hopefully, you
know, still trying to have hopethat, okay, it will lead to
something.

(28:37):
And so that to that story aboutthe oppression being all around
you, I remember we write aboutthis story, about one of the
early days when sola wasbeginning to have this secret
education, and she grew up in aplace where many people said
that women the way that womenare, they're not meant to learn.

(28:58):
They cannot learn, and they willbecome sick if they learn. And
so one day, she was lookingonline reading, she spent hours
doing it, and she got aheadache, just like a lot of us
do if we look at a screen or ifwe read a book for too long. And
at the beginning of her journey,she saw that as proof that, oh,
women aren't supposed to dothis. Oh, maybe I'm getting sick

(29:21):
from this knowledge, from thislearning, and I think that just
speaks to how pervasive thisoppression really was. Yeah,

Dave Crenshaw (29:28):
because you've been hearing it over and over
these things, you've beenindoctrinated that this is bad
for you. And so where did thingsstart to get better? You
mentioned that you held on tothis hope that something was
going to be better. Where didyou start to see that the hope
could be a reality? Sola,

Unknown (29:47):
yeah, so my brothers were preparing for English exam.
He wanted to go study in the UK.
And my sister was telling me,like, oh, you know, when he does
it, you will do it too. And Ithink it was a little. To
optimistic, but I kind of, Ireally wanted to believe her.
And so that's and then I in 2012there was so much war and on

(30:09):
something different, and mybrothers were, my brother was
going to Pakistan, and I askedhim, like, can you bring me
anything that's in English?
Because in Kandahar, it was likefinding English material,
reading. It was really, reallyhard. And so he brought me back,
like, Time Magazine and otherthings. And in Time magazine, I

(30:29):
just was slipping through thepages, and I found out about
Khan Academy, and it is like alearning, online learning
platform. And it was about like,learn anything, anywhere, for
free. And I just felt like Ireally needed that. And I
immediately went on to open mylaptop and opened up Khan
Academy, and it had thisadvertisement of algebra, the

(30:52):
beauty of algebra. And I feltlike, oh, it might not be for
me, because I have overheardconversation from my brothers
and male cousins, like, howhard, like, algebra or math is,
like, you have this just oneline of equation, and it has,
like, pages and pages of proof,and then at the end you just get

(31:12):
one answer, like this tinyanswer. And for me, it was such
a like, I was so intrigued bythat. And how can that be true?
You know, it's something magicalhappening there. Like, what is
it like? What is that tiny thingholes that you to unravel it?
You have to do those pages ofpages of writing. And so I kind
of, like, turned off my laptopbecause I was like, Oh, this is

(31:33):
not for me. I don't even knowwhat that is. But then after a
few days, like, curiosity tookthe better off me, and I asked
my younger brother, of like,what is the come after addition
and subtraction? Because that'show I thought I knew. Because
from the time that I went toschool, and he told me fractions
and I went to Khan Academy, Isearched fractions and I studied

(31:58):
a little bit, but then I alsorealized I had to, like, do my
addition subtraction too. And Ijust got obsessed with learning
math and science because it wasjust so structured. And it just
like, every day I would be like,Okay, I have to study this. And
because I was at that time, Iwas 16, and I just was like, Oh,
how stupid I am. I'm 16, and Istill don't know any of those

(32:19):
things. So I have to, like,learn everything's really,
really faster. So I think fromthat moment on, it just, I think
the learning became somethingreally different to me, and it
just started to give me areally, really different
purpose. And the fact that I wasable to learn, I think it just
like kept me going. And I justthink I was beginning to see,
like a world opening up to me,at least in my own head. And

(32:40):
this is the core of the book,basically that when she sola was
16, she couldn't even add orsubtract, but within three years
of just using online resources,she was doing college level
physics and calculus. And that'sjust an incredible story,

Dave Crenshaw (32:56):
yeah? Well, it shows a lot about your internal
desire to learn. I think so manypeople get dependent upon the
system, right? Oh, the highschool is going to teach me
everything I need to, need toknow, and then I'm going to go
to college and they're going toteach me everything I need to
know. Well, that's true, butit's you choosing to learn. You

(33:17):
choosing to be teachable. That'swhat makes it work? And that's
what it clearly was making itwork for you. Sola, so kudos to
you for that, having that thatgift and that ability. So where
did this start to turn into anopportunity to actually leave
Afghanistan? What? What broughtthat about?

Unknown (33:37):
Yeah. So you know, by then, I was spending at most,
like, eight hours a day oflearning math and sciences,
philosophy and physics. And thenit become less about my place in
the social world and more myplace in the physical world.
And, you know, I startedstudying, like, Astronomy and
Astrophysics, and it's like in2015 and I was like, Okay, now I

(33:59):
think I have enough, because mylike, I wanted to study in a
university, and I was like, Ican't just, like, forever be in
my own room and just study. AndI wanted to, like, apply to some
colleges and study abroad. Andby then, my brother was was
studying abroad, and I was like,I have to, like, follow on his
footsteps and do but I didn't goto school, so I didn't have a

(34:21):
high school certificate oranything, and so the first step
was to get that so, yeah, justlike trying to figure that out,
was

Dave Crenshaw (34:29):
there any risk associated with that? The idea
is, you're applying to auniversity in the United States,
right? You've been doing allthis stuff kind of clandestine,
because you're concerned aboutwhat the ruling group is going
to do. So how did that work? Wasit? Did it require some to be

(34:49):
sneaky, or was it not that bigof a challenge to send out those
applications? I

Unknown (34:55):
mean, I think the risk that we talk about in the book
even comes before sending thoseapplications. Educations,
because, as sola mentioned, youknow, she was self taught, and
so the first step was just, howdo you prove that education? And
so first she tried to go to thelocal Ministry of Education and
get a certificate, but theofficials there wouldn't even
look her in the eyes because shewas a woman, let alone give her

(35:18):
the right paperwork. So then shetried to take the GED, which is
an exam we're familiar with, andshe studied for that, only to
realize that the exam wasn'toffered in Afghanistan or in any
neighboring countries, so therewas no way for her to take that.
And so the SAT the exam thatpretty much all high schoolers
here in the United States take,pretty much became her only

(35:41):
chance at a way out, but the SATwasn't offered in Afghanistan.
It was only in Pakistan. And soshe crossed one of the world's
most dangerous borders, a borderwhere men and women have to be
separated, where people areregularly beaten with electric
cables, where you have to takemultiple vehicles just to get
across. She crossed intoPakistan and managed to take the

(36:04):
last spot in an S, A Tadministration there and take
the exam, and that was all youknow, before she even wrote a
single application. I was justgonna say

Dave Crenshaw (36:13):
hearing that story, I'm never going to allow
my children to complain abouttaking one of those tests again
in high school. All they have todo is go and sit down in the
cafeteria with a pencil, andthey're off and running. So the
idea that you had to do that,and not only had to do that, but
had the will to do it and wantto do it, that's remarkable.

(36:35):
Okay, so then you took that, Imean, it seems like even getting
the results from it would bedifficult, or getting the
results to the university right?
Was that a challenge as well?

Unknown (36:45):
No, it wasn't a challenge because it shows it
online, and then you also, like,kind of attached to PDF, so it
wasn't hard. But then also haveto take another test as well,
IELTS that I was to prove

Dave Crenshaw (36:58):
English. Yeah, and, and where did you end up
getting accepted? Arizona,

Unknown (37:03):
State University, University of Iowa, and then
another community college,and you got a full ride to
Arizona? Yeah.

Dave Crenshaw (37:09):
I'm assuming leaving the country was
incredibly difficult. Can youtalk to me a little bit what,
what that was like?

Unknown (37:15):
Yeah. So I mean, I took the exams, and I applied for
university, about accepted tosome and then the next step was
to get a student visa, and thatwas to come go to Kabul and go
to the US Embassy in Kabul andget visa. But when I went there,
my in a minute, it was denied.
And it's like the whole likeworld like shattered for me,

(37:37):
because I spent years to come tothis point, and this person just
in a minute telling me that hecan't give me a visa, and when I
ask the reason why, he says,like, I just don't think you're
going there to study. You'rejust going there to immigrate.
And this was the moment Irealized how the outside world
sees Afghans just desperate toleave their country, and they're

(37:59):
not serious about learning andeducation. But still, I was
like, Okay, it's still in myhand, but this moment, this felt
like, really, really hopeless.
Like,

Dave Crenshaw (38:10):
yeah, so how did you overcome that?

Unknown (38:13):
So luckily, you know, at that time, I was also talking
to some professor in Arizona andand also I had a friend who,
when I was preparing for exam,who I met online. And so she
also grew up at the time of theUS presence in Afghanistan, and
you know, all those stories ofus helping Afghan women. And

(38:33):
then she suddenly this was notreally reality, like if anyone
should have gotten a visa, shethought it should have been me,
but how could that be true? Andso she was really furious. And
all the other people who havetalked to you know about physics
and everything, and then theysaw potential in me. And so then

(38:54):
they start to get support. Andthen, like, after a month and a
half, I was able to get ahumanitarian parole visa, which
is not a student visa, whichalso meant I did not know when I
will be able to see my parents,my family and I left Afghanistan
in 2016

Dave Crenshaw (39:12):
that's the first time you'd ever traveled out of
the country, other than going totake the test in Pakistan,
right?

Unknown (39:18):
Yeah, yeah.

Dave Crenshaw (39:19):
How was that trip for you.

Unknown (39:21):
I mean, I think it was both really hard and it was all
because hard in the sense that,you know, just I was walking
into a completely new life thatI do not know what it would be.
Will I be, how I would be ableto live in there? I never like
live without my family. So Ithink, you know both like, Oh,

(39:41):
I'm embarking on, like, a newjourney of life, but there was
also so much unknown. And Ithink also by then, there had
many other questions about theplace of Afghan in the world.
And it was just like a lot ofmixture of emotions.
There's a story that we. Tell inthe book about the first time

(40:02):
when she landed in the UnitedStates, and that friend she had
met online, Emily, who had beenhelping teach her English, came
to pick her up. So they're therein the airport, and Emily kind
of gestures for her to get inthe front seat. And at that
moment, you know, sola kind ofpauses, because she's never sat
in the front seat of a carbefore and her friend Emily

(40:24):
slides into the driver's seatand she's never seen a woman
drive. There were so many ofthose kinds of moments, right?
That I think, as Americans, youmight not even think of as what
would be the real culture shock.
But that really stuck with me,

Dave Crenshaw (40:37):
yeah, that's Yeah. What a what a story. Talk
to me a little bit about how youclearly have succeeded in
education here. I mean, just theconcept of being involved in
quantum computing, to me, isvery impressive, and I'm curious
about it. Can you just share alittle bit of if someone's

(40:59):
listening to this and theirstudent, what has worked well
for you? How have you succeededas a student? I'd love for you
to share some advice about howto accomplish what you've
accomplished in your educationalcareer. Yeah,

Unknown (41:13):
as you've mentioned before, like, a lot of the time
people rely on, you know,someone else, to teach them. But
for me, it's also like payingattention to the world. I think
the world is full of questions,you know, and trying to
interrogate and understand why,why it is the way it is. And for
me that either, if it's in thesocial sciences world or in the

(41:34):
physical science, is that, youknow, I want to understand
something, and I just getobsessed with it. I would like,
you know, it's like, you shouldbe able to put it together in
your mind, like you can. It'seasy to read an explanation, or
this is this, you know, but forme, really is to kind of, first
of all, I think readingdifferent books, like, even if
it's the same topic, somethingthat kind of sparks questions in

(41:56):
your head, and then trying toanswer it, and then you kind of
like, I have to reconstruct itin my head. And if I'm unable to
do that, then I don't think Iunderstand it, and I pursue it
until I do it. And also, a lotof the time, we just think it
takes a special person to do allof those things. But I really
like this one quote by RichardFeynman, who was like a

(42:19):
physicist, and he said, If oneidiot can invent, another stupid
can understand so it's not likeas a humans, we are not like in
some sense. We are all the same.
So if one of us can invent it,the other one can understand it
too. So I just think not puttingat inventors or any people like
that, like at a very high level,see them as normal humans, and

(42:42):
you're just trying to understandwhat they have done,

Dave Crenshaw (42:46):
yeah, and what I'm getting too, is that you're
reading more than what'sassigned to you. You're studying
more than what someone else istelling and that, I think, is a
fantastic trait to havethroughout your life, and it's
shockingly rare, but I thinkit's something that people
should emulate. Could you giveus a little bit of insight into

(43:08):
what you do as a quantumcomputing researcher at at
Tufts? What does that mean?

Unknown (43:15):
Yeah, so it's mostly my work is theoretical, and it's
about like developing algorithmsand trying to see, how is it
better in some problems andclassical algorithms? Because
that's what the whole paradigmof quantum computing is. But it
speeds up like calculation forsome really important problems.

(43:36):
But we might not know exactlywhat where that problems are,
what are the details of thesolutions are and how it
compares to classicalalgorithms. So that's what?
Yeah,

Dave Crenshaw (43:48):
that's brilliant stuff. That's fascinating that
you're involved in. That lastquestion, we could talk for a
long time. What an amazingstory. I I'm curious. You both
are touring around, you're doinginterviews like this. You're
bringing awareness to the plightof women in Afghanistan. What
things are you doing to help?
What are other things thatyou're doing to help as well

(44:11):
women in Afghanistan? And whatwould you suggest people like,
if I'm listening to this and Isay, hey, I want to help, what
are some things that we can do.

Unknown (44:21):
Yeah, I mean, I think, honestly, the most important
thing is first just bringingawareness to what's happening in
Afghanistan. So in 2021 theTaliban took over the country
again, and what that meant forwomen was, eventually, the
Taliban passed over 75 differentedicts that banned girls from

(44:42):
school, banned women from theworkplace, but also, most
recently, banned women frombeauty salons, one of the last
places they could gather andmake money, or stopped allowing
female call ins to radio ortelevision shows. Basically this
attempt to erase. Of women andwomen's identities from the

(45:02):
public sphere entirely. And Ithink that that's a story that
got coverage for a week or twoin August of 2021 but it's
something that continues tohappen every single day. There
are new edicts almost everyother week. You know, this
problem hasn't stopped, and thesituation is getting even more
dire for women and girls inAfghanistan. And so the most

(45:25):
important thing that we hopethrough this book is that people
gain a very personalunderstanding of what it's like
to be a woman in that country,not the fact that there are
statistics like 2.5 milliongirls denied an education or
political analyzes, but what isit like to be a mother who
watches a child grow upuneducated? What is it like to

(45:47):
watch your school be taken awayfrom you? And so that's really
our hope with this book. Andwhat I would say to other people
is, seek out these stories.
Don't turn away from the storiesof Afghan women, because what we
saw is actually when the Talibanfirst took over, there was this
period where there wasengagement and nothing had quite
yet happened. The Taliban hadtaken power, but they hadn't

(46:11):
been began to impose theseedicts, and it was really once
the world's attention turnedaway that we saw this radical
transformation. And I think thatspeaks to the responsibility we
all have, because if we start tonormalize this kind of
oppression, we all lose so much,I think for me, like really
understanding my countries ondetails of the histories and all

(46:32):
of that, and also trying tocreate a platform that will
hopefully help Afghan Women tocreate their own knowledge in
what they see as an empowermentand how the world can help back
with it. So, yeah, I'm the earlystages of thinking in that way,
and hopefully there will besomething to share with the
world and see what they can doto amplify that

Dave Crenshaw (46:58):
well. Thank you so much, both of you for
bringing attention to thingsthat I certainly wasn't aware
of. I just knew things were bad,and I think a lot of people in
the US are like that, or evenother parts of the world as
well, right? We know it's bad,but we don't really understand
what's going on. And I reallyappreciate you sharing this with

(47:19):
us, making the book availabledefiant dreams. So at the end of
every episode, I do something alittle different, because as a
as an educator, as someone whoteaches productivity and
leadership, my perspective isit's not just about what we
heard, but it's about what wedo. So what I'm going to do now

(47:40):
is I'm going to pull threethings that I heard from your
story sola, that illustrate howto be successful. And they're
things that someone can do rightnow this week, not a year from
now, but something they canimplement right now so they can
make your success story a partof their success story. And then
what I'd like you at the end,and perhaps one from each of you

(48:02):
is add one action that someonecan take this week to do
something to be more successful.
Sound good? All right, okay, sohere is the first thing that I
wrote down, and I'm actuallygoing to call on the example of
your mother for this. Youmentioned how she created a
positive space. She created apositive outlook in the home,

(48:24):
even when things were going onterrible around you. She created
a sense of calmness. And I thinkthat that is a trait of great
leadership. And anyone can thinkabout this, if you're at work or
something's in your family wherethere's chaos happening around
you, you can be someone that ispositive, that is calm and helps

(48:47):
the people around you feel likethey can succeed and do better
by making that choice. So justconsider how you could bring a
little bit more calmness, alittle more positivity to your
leadership style. The second onewas a phrase that came up a few
times, which is knowing thelanguage. In your case, it was
English, sola, knowing thelanguage opens up windows,

(49:09):
right? Opens up opportunities.
I'm going to approach this fromtwo possible languages. So if
someone's listening to this oneis if you're in a foreign
country or in a very differentculture, learn that language. So
if it happens to be English,great, but it may be you're in
New York, in a Braziliancommunity, learn Portuguese,

(49:31):
whatever it is take the time tolearn the language of the people
around you that will open doors.
And if you're not in a placelike that, learn your own
language better. I really seenthe power of that. I mentioned
my daughters, my my daughter,Ella in particular, is a writer.
She's hungry for knowledge aboutlanguage. She's always learning
about it, and I think that'llopen up Windows, no matter where
you are, no matter what you'reaccomplishing. And then the last

(49:55):
one we have to talk about issola. How you engaged in online
learning. My career has beenbuilt around it with my courses
on LinkedIn learning. And youmentioned Khan Academy, which is
a fantastic resource for people.
Anyone listening to this rightnow, you can take a course

(50:16):
online in something you don'tknow about but that you're
curious about, do that thisweek, whether it's con or
LinkedIn learning or some otherplace. Take a course this week.
Learn something new, and you canbe hungry for knowledge, just
like sola is and was, alright.
So those are my three actionitems. Who wants to go first
with with a suggestion actionfrom this?

Unknown (50:39):
I guess I would say, read a book, or watch a
documentary, or even just anarticle about a place that you
don't know about and you're notfrom, because I think for me,
getting to see Afghanistanthrough sola's eyes was an
incredibly enriching experience.
It helped shape what I'mstudying now at Stanford, what I
want to do with my life, andreally how I see the world, and

(51:00):
I would encourage other peopleto do the same thing.

Dave Crenshaw (51:04):
Fantastic. And sola, yeah, I

Unknown (51:07):
think, um, the power of knowledge. A lot of the time.
People say, you know, knowledge,knowledge is power. But I see it
like non knowledge isemancipation, because if we
don't know how the world works,we don't know how to change it.
And so I think, like, that'show, and especially in my own
case, like just knowing thedetails of each period, the

(51:29):
consciousness of each time ofour history, I think it has
changed the way I see the world,the way I will tell Afghan
stories and everything. So Ithink knowing more details of
the world? Yeah, I think it willchange us, and hopefully they're
going to be like a tiny bit ofchange in the world as well. The

Dave Crenshaw (51:48):
word that keeps coming to mind about you sola is
curiosity. You have an intensecuriosity to learn about things,
to learn how they fit together.
That's a wonderful trait andsomething that I think we all
should emulate. So thank you.
Thank you so much for sharingthis with us. Of course, we're
going to encourage people to getthe book defiant dreams. If

(52:09):
people want to follow yourstory, where would you encourage
people to go online to stayconnected?

Unknown (52:15):
You can find out more about the book and sola story at
defiant dreams.com and then youcan find us both with our names
on Twitter and Instagram.

Dave Crenshaw (52:24):
Okay? And I'm going to encourage as a LinkedIn
guy, LinkedIn as well, you'rethere too, right? Yeah, I am
there. Fantastic. Thank you verymuch for sharing this story and
for being here, and thank youeveryone for listening.
Remember, it's not just aboutthe knowledge that you gained.
It's not just about what youfelt, it's about what you do. So

(52:45):
please do something this week,and you'll make sola and
milena's success story a part ofyour success story. Thanks for
listening.

Darci Crenshaw (52:56):
You've been listening to the Dave Crenshaw
Success Show, hosted by my dad,Dave Crenshaw, and produced by
invaluable, Incorporatedresearch and assistant
production by Victoria Bidez,Sound Editing by Nikic Wright,
voiceover by me, Darci Crenshaw,and the music is by Ryan Brady
via Pon five licensing, pleasesubscribe To the Dave Crenshaw

(53:19):
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