October 9, 2024 • 44 mins
Sophie Thompson, co-founder of Virtual Speech, shares her inspiring journey of turning personal struggle into a global impact. After battling severe social anxiety, Sophie discovered a powerful way to push beyond her limits using virtual reality training. Since 2016, Virtual Speech has helped over 500,000 people in 130 countries tackle their own communication challenges. In this episode, Sophie opens up about how cognitive behavioral therapy and stepping outside her comfort zone led to profound personal growth. Hear how her unique blend of theology, international business, and a drive to connect with like-minded individuals fueled her mission. Then, choose which action will most likely help you reach your goal today.
Action Principles
Pick one to do this week:
1. Strengthen your skillset. With consistent practice, you can improve any skill. ACTION: Pick one skill you'd like to improve and take small, consistent steps toward getting better at it.
2. Surround yourself with the right people. The more time you spend around people with similar goals or high levels of success, the more you'll grow, too. ACTION: Find ways to spend more time with people who've achieved the result you aspire to reach.
3. Turn a weakness into a strength. Change your perspective on your weakness by finding a way to make it your strength. ACTION: Consider ways your weakness could be turned into a strength.
4. Step outside your comfort zone. Even the smallest change can open doors to new opportunities. ACTION: Choose one small action to do that it outside your comfort zone.
Guest Resources
Learn more about Sophie Thompson on LinkedIn or by visiting VirtualSpeech.com.
Suggested LinkedIn Learning Course
Turn Your Weaknesses into Strengths
Dave Crenshaw develops productive leaders in Fortune 500 companies, universities, and organizations of every size. He has appeared in Time magazine, USA Today, FastCompany, and the BBC News. His courses on LinkedIn Learning have been viewed tens of millions of times. His five books have been published in eight languages, the most popular of which is The Myth of Multitasking—a time management bestseller. As an author, speaker, and online instructor, Dave has transformed the lives and careers of hundreds of thousands around the world. DaveCrenshaw.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
We were very fortunate to be picked up by the press. So
we were in the New York Times,for example, which we literally
just sent each other oneWhatsApp like, oh, look, we're
in the New York Times. How cool.
Okay, yeah, we had we were sonaive in this
Dave Crenshaw (00:17):
episode, you'll get to know Sophie Thompson, the
inspirational learner, andyou'll hear the story of how she
used her severe social anxietyto create a virtual reality
training program that's helpedhundreds of 1000s overcome their
fear of public speaking. I'mDave Crenshaw, and this is my
success Show. Welcome back,friends, to the Dave Crenshaw
(00:42):
Success Show. This is where Ispeak to some of the most
successful people I've met in mylife's journey. And I'm looking
for universal principles ofsuccess, things that can help
you and help my family succeed.
In case you're not familiar withme, I'm a best selling author. I
speak around the world ofFortune 500 companies, and I've
taught millions of people how tobe successful through my online
courses, especially my courseson LinkedIn learning. With this
(01:06):
show, I wanted to createsomething different. I was
looking to create a legacyproject specifically for my
children, because I was thinkingabout, how can I help them learn
all the wonderful lessons thatI've learned from the people
that I met, and then I thought,well, you'd enjoy learning along
with them. The goal in everyepisode is to find something you
can do, something you can putinto action today this week, so
(01:29):
that you make my guest successstory a part of your success
story. And today's guest, youabsolutely want to do that with
her man. What a story. SophieThompson co founded virtual
speech in 2016 to overcome herfear of public speaking, she
found that VR had a uniqueability to help people practice
(01:53):
in a safe environment and buildtheir skills and confidence for
real world situations, virtualspeech has been used by over a
half million people, 500,000people in more than 130
countries, and has been featuredin high profile news outlets
like the BBC, The New YorkTimes, Wall Street Journal
(02:17):
Forbes and the Huffington Post,just a few small publications.
Sophie has won several awards,such as inspirational woman in
tech for her achievements withher company. She lives in
Birmingham, England, where sheenjoys historical fiction and
swimming. Sophie, thank you somuch for spending time with us
today.
Unknown (02:37):
Thank you very much for having me.
Dave Crenshaw (02:39):
So Sophie, I'm so interested in your story,
especially as a public speakerand as someone in the training
industry. So I'm fascinated, andwe'll learn more about your
story as we get along. Talk tome about when you were younger.
I like to ask the question ofevery guest, what did you want
to be when you grew up? What didyou think you were going to
(03:01):
become?
Unknown (03:02):
Oh, well, that depends on what age you asked me. So if
you asked me when I was seven, Iwanted to be a hairdresser, then
if you asked me when I was ateenager, I wanted to be a
barrister. So I went from oneextreme to the other and ended
up doing neither. So yes,that's, that's what I wanted to
be when I was a teenager
Dave Crenshaw (03:19):
and a barrister in UK. What does that mean? A
lawyer? Basically, okay, allright, so you intended to be a
lawyer. Is that something youstudied in college? Talk to me a
little about what youruniversity experience was, yeah,
Unknown (03:35):
so I didn't actually study it. So I would say I
wanted to do that when I was inmy early teens, then as I
progressed into my later teens,I would say that's where my
social anxiety got worse, and myconfidence got less. And so I
was very worried that I mightnot get into university, which,
looking back, is very silly,because I got, like, the highest
(03:58):
possible grades, but I was kindof convinced that I wouldn't be
able to my dad just told me tostudy whatever I enjoyed,
whatever I was good at, and thenin my head, I thought whatever I
would also very easily get into.
So I studied theology andreligion at university.
Interesting, yeah. So a lot ofthat was around, like many
different religions, but also alot around like history. So my
(04:22):
dissertation, which is like mybig project at the end, was
focused on the Holocaust, forexample. So it was really
interesting. I did really enjoyit. And
Dave Crenshaw (04:34):
what was the goal with that study? Was it from a
historian perspective, or didyou actually want to go into
clergy of some kind? What wasyour end design of studying that
Unknown (04:46):
just from a historical perspective? So I, I always
found history reallyinteresting. And, yeah, I just
really enjoyed it. So I had nointention of joining the clergy
or directly applying my degree.
So. A lot of my peers, forexample, have ended up being
religious studies teachers, forexample. Whereas that wasn't my
plan. My plan was very shortterm of I enjoy learning about
(05:09):
this. I love learning. Let'spick a topic to learn more about
them and see what happens.
Dave Crenshaw (05:16):
I want to roll back just a little bit, and you
mentioned a phrase that is avery important phrase in my
family and for me, which issocial anxiety. It's something
that in particular, a couple ofmy children have dealt with in a
very severe way, and they'vegone through therapy and been
(05:36):
successful with that therapy. Sotalk to me first of all about
what your experience was, orstill is with social anxiety.
What does that look like foryou?
Unknown (05:48):
When I was a child, I thought I was just shy, and so
I'm 30, and even though that isrelatively young still, when I
was at school, say, 20 yearsago, I don't think, well,
certainly in the UK, we didn'thave the language of social
anxiety, like if, if you gotnervous about something, you
(06:08):
were just nervous. Like you werea nervous child. You were a shy
child. So I look back at certainstages of my life, and you
mentioned therapy, for example,and that's a great way of
looking back as well. And I canidentify times from when I was
as young as six that I wassocially anxious or anxious with
(06:29):
a capital A rather than a littlea like for example, I love
swimming now, but actually whenI was six, I used to get so
nervous about going swimming andlike being seen, and I felt like
people could see me more, that Iwas so nervous. One time I threw
up at the side of the poolbecause I hated that I was
there. Oh my goodness, So littlethings like that. Or I started
(06:52):
doing this thing where I wouldlike, wave my mom goodbye in the
car with my dad, and I wouldlike cross my fingers. And I'd
be like, okay, fingers crossed.
Like, nothing bad happens, whichI don't know what my parents
thought was going on in mylittle head at the time, but I
was convinced that something badmight happen, and that could be
like, I was asked to, like, readin the past, or something like
(07:14):
that, which I was very capableof doing, but I just didn't want
any attention on me, you
Dave Crenshaw (07:22):
mentioned that you're very young, and you've
accomplished a great deal atyour young age. Is social
anxiety still something that youdeal with? I guess what I'm
asking is what you did to sortof overcome that prior to
virtual speech, were there? Didyou go to therapy? Did you work
with a doctor? What? What thingsdid you attempt?
Unknown (07:41):
It took a long time to identify that that was a
problem, and it was more when itwent a step further, and I
guess, manifested itself a bitmore, along the lines of severe
depression, that I then soughthelp for that and then realized
that it was the two of themcombined. So at that point, for
example, I tried things like CBTcognitive behavioral therapy,
(08:03):
which I did find useful. Sothings like going to the gym, I
didn't go to the gym because Iwas scared. So, like we had
steps to like, I would go with afriend, I would do this and and
it did work for that, but itdidn't actually change how I
thought about myself, which Ithink was the biggest problem
for me, then I think I did havemedication at that point, but I
(08:27):
didn't want to see that as along term solution, because I
felt like that was masking thesymptoms but not the cause. So
if I came off it, would I justbe back to square one? I did
actually stop taking medication,which, again, now I look back on
I think it was just that onedidn't suit me, and then I was
just back to square one, and Ijust carried on.
Dave Crenshaw (08:49):
Was there a skill that you learned through therapy
that you still use? And thereason why I'm asking that is I
could see that someone listeningto this is identifying with it,
and say, Yeah, I have socialanxiety like Sophie is
describing. I'd love to givethem one useful thing that they
could use. Of course, virtualspeech is part of that. But
(09:10):
prior to that, is there justsomething, a tool in your belt
that you use for those moments.
Unknown (09:15):
I think the biggest takeaway I had from that era of
my life was one of the thingsthat I had to do was write down
the things I was nervous aboutor anxious about for that week,
and write it on a scale of oneto 10 for how anxious I felt
about it. And then after I haddone it, write on a scale of one
(09:36):
to 10 like how I felt about itafterwards. And I found that the
things that I was most anxiousabout, and if I then did them,
were the things that I wouldfeel most happy about, and that
if I just got over the theanxiety of it and just managed
to do it, I would then feel somuch happier than if I just
(09:58):
stayed in my lane, stayed in mycomfort. Sign, Oh, that's
Dave Crenshaw (10:01):
great. That's a wonderful skill. I think a
couple things are going on.
First, you're being objectiveabout the situation, because
anxiety is is activating thesmallest part of your brain.
It's all reactionary. And so ifyou can scale it like that with
with numbers, then you start tobecome objective and more
logical about it. And thenthat's another amazing
revelation, that the things thatyou're avoiding are actually the
(10:23):
things that would make youhappy. Thank you for sharing
that. Okay, so you're you'restudying at university where did
technology start to come intoyour story? Because I know that
that's a big part of the successthat you've had. So
Unknown (10:39):
after I did my theology degree, I realized that that
probably wasn't known to lead meinto a job, and I loved
learning, so I wanted to stay ineducation. So then I studied a
master's degree, a post grad ininternational business. And it
was while I was studying forthat that I would talk more to
my friends and my peers aboutlike business in general,
(11:01):
technology trends. And I justfind like technology so
exciting. And, yeah, really,that's where the love of
technology came from, and theneventually where virtual speech
came from. What
Dave Crenshaw (11:13):
made you want to study in international business?
That's an important thing.
Because part of the reason why Istarted this Sophie is I'm
looking for patterns of success.
And honestly, it shouldn't beshocking, but it's been shocking
to me how many people havestudied business as part of
their story to be successful.
Where did that idea come from,that that would be the good
master's degree to pursue? Ijust
Unknown (11:35):
find it really interesting learning how things
work and what increases thelikelihood of things working and
why things happen. And in a way,I think of some aspects of
business, quite like psychologyand about how the brain works
and why we do what we do, andwhy a customer might react one
way, or why a market might reactanother way. So again, similar
(11:58):
to why I studied theology, itwas actually just about what I
found interesting and what Iwould like to learn more about,
and then it just so happenedthat that would also more likely
lead to a future career as well.
Dave Crenshaw (12:11):
That's a really important point of pursuing what
you love and what you'reinterested in. Sometimes people
get stuck because they'repursuing money, and they think,
Oh, this career is going to makeme wealthy, when, in fact, it's
finding a career that you lovethat gives you the longevity
that will lead to theprosperity, which has certainly
been a part of your story. Italso sounds like a big part of
(12:32):
it is your interest inpsychology. Why people make
buying decisions and that sortof thing. Were you also studying
psychology as part of that, orwas that a hobby that you were
doing because you were dealingwith issues with social anxiety?
Where did that come from?
Unknown (12:48):
I've never formally studied it, but I used to read
quite a lot of personaldevelopment books. I think back
then they were called self helpbooks, which makes them sound a
bit more dreary, but that's amuch bigger field now, like if
you go into a bookstore, there'sso many more options now, and
people have recognized a lotmore about the importance of
(13:10):
learning about yourself and howyou can be your best self. So I
think that's partly where thepsychology element came from,
because I would find those bookshelpful and motivating. They
just hadn't kind of solved myoverriding problem of like, what
effectively was probably lowself esteem that was
(13:31):
contributing to the socialanxiety. But I found it really
interesting about, like,rewiring your brain and how that
could work. I just couldn't doit.
Dave Crenshaw (13:42):
So you got your master's degree in 2016 Correct?
Yes. Okay, and were you workingprior to that? Was there a gap
between your initial degree andthe master's degree? What were
you spending your time doing inthat space? Or were you a full
time student?
Unknown (13:59):
I was a full time student. So, I mean, I did, I
worked at a pub, for example,but yeah, I went. I finished my
undergraduate in July, and Istarted my postgraduate in
September. So it was straightaway.
Dave Crenshaw (14:12):
And then, according to what I see, you
also founded virtual speech thesame year that you graduated
with your master's degree? Isthat correct? Yes.
Unknown (14:22):
So we started virtual speech whilst I was studying for
my master's, and that wasbecause I had an assessed
presentation coming up. And formy post grad, we were all being
marked individually. So we allhad to speak. And being academic
was very important to me, andgetting the highest possible
grades is very important. Veryimportant to me, but I had this
(14:44):
massive blocker that I couldn'tget up and speak. And I was
talking to my friend who's now abusiness partner, Dom, and he
was working with virtual realityat Jaguar Land Rover, the car
company. And. And yeah, really,it was his idea that we could
create an environment or anaudience in an environment in
(15:07):
virtual reality, and I could usethat almost as a form of our own
CBT therapy, where I could thenget used to attention on me.
Basically,
Dave Crenshaw (15:19):
that's fascinating, especially the
relationship that you had withsomeone that led to the
foundation of the company, Ifind that's also a pattern of
success. Is those we associatewith will have a massive impact
on who we become and what weaccomplish in our career. Yeah,
Unknown (15:39):
hugely. I mean, I I didn't really know what virtual
reality was at that point. Imean, most people know what it
is now, or they've seen aheadset now, but back in 2016
Dave Crenshaw (15:50):
that was early, right? Yeah, really
Unknown (15:53):
early. And when he said about virtual reality, I was
like, Is that like a headset?
What? So, yeah, thankfully, he'dbeen working in that field for
even a couple of years by thatpoint. So he was really early
on. And, yeah, we just createdvirtual speech, just some, like,
I always say, like, some nerdyfun that DOM created it because
he's your classic, like,visionary entrepreneur. He's
(16:14):
always creating things, and heenjoyed creating it. And I was
almost the guinea pig testingout? Now,
Dave Crenshaw (16:22):
there's a phrase that you've used twice, which
I'm very familiar with, but Iwant if I'm thinking like my
children are learning howthey've heard it for the first
time, you mentioned CBT,cognitive behavioral therapy,
which it seems like it's a bigpart of virtual speech. It's a
big part of your story. So couldyou provide some context, some
definition of what CBT is, howit works,
Unknown (16:45):
I will try. So virtual speech is unofficially linked
with CBT, and there's now a newarea called Virtual Reality
exposure therapy, which is a bitmore closely aligned with what
we do. So the way that Iexperienced it was building
myself up to things that I wasscared of. So for example, with
something like public speaking,if I was scared of speaking to
(17:09):
an audience of 50 people, myfirst step would be speak to one
person. So that would be for methat was ordering my own food in
a restaurant, which I couldn'toriginally do. So that was step
one. Step Two might be to speakup during a group project
discussion at university andthat say in front of five
(17:30):
people, and you gradually workyour way up, and you become more
comfortable with the previousstep and more confident in your
own ability to achieve that stepbefore you then go on to the
next one, so that ultimately youend up where you want to be. So
if you think of it kind of likerungs on a ladder, that the
(17:51):
first rung was one person, thenit was five people, and then you
keep going until you get to youryour magical number of 50 in my
case, yeah, and
Dave Crenshaw (18:00):
my understanding is exposure therapy is a
specific application ofcognitive behavioral therapy. So
virtual speech. Then the conceptwas to create that sort of
environment where someone couldpractice speaking in front of a
virtual audience. What did thefirst version in 2016 look like,
(18:20):
like, I'm thinking of what's,what was that second life,
right? It was pretty clunky andblocky in the beginning. Was it
like that with virtual speech?
Unknown (18:29):
I mean, yeah, ultimately, it would have been,
but there wasn't an alternativeat that point. Like, if you if
so, for example, if I was to usethe first version of virtual
speech now, now that we're like,eight, nine years along in the
technology, it would seem veryclunky at the time because it
was so new. And I think thefirst version had, like, very
(18:50):
minimal environments. It wasgreen screened people. So we
actually still have one of theserooms, because our customers
have become, like, actually,really like it, and I guess I'm
quite emotionally attached to ittoo. One of the environments
where we basically filmed all ofour friends, and they are the
audience members. Oh, that'sgreat. There's one of the
(19:11):
environments where you go intoit and I can be like, Oh, that's
Paula, that's Olivia, that'smad, and it's basically mine and
Dom's friends at the time.
Dave Crenshaw (19:20):
Okay, so you actually have real people inside
the immersion.
Unknown (19:24):
So we have some environments where we've
recorded people and then placedthem into a conference room,
which we have created, likecomputer generated, and then we
have some environments which areavatar based. There's pros and
cons to both, but from myexperience, I preferred to have
the real people there, becausewith them looking at me, I felt
(19:48):
like that was much morerealistic and emotionally
evocative than an avatar lookingat me. But the benefit of
avatars is they can be moreinteractive, so they can react
to what you say. They can havepractice conversations with you.
So that's why we've we've gotboth in there who
Dave Crenshaw (20:05):
was doing the programming in that, because up
to this point in your story, youhadn't mentioned anything with
computer design or computerdevelopment. So was that in
partnership with your friend?
Was that something that youhired other people to do? How
did you get the expertise youneeded to create that that was
Dom, great. So that partnershiptogether allowed that to occur,
yeah,
Unknown (20:25):
so I say that in the early days, Dom was the tech guy
and I was the everything elsegirl. That was how we split the
roles when we first started.
Dave Crenshaw (20:34):
That's really important, though, in a
partnership, is to have a cleardividing line. Did you do it
just through a conversation, orwas it written down just through
conversation? Did you everexperience any kind of overlap
or bumping into each other andresponsibilities with that? Or
did it still seem pretty cleanbecause the line was simple,
Unknown (20:53):
it was always pretty clean, and even today, it's
pretty clean. Like we've beenworking together for nine years
now, like we've never arguedabout anything. I think that's
one of like, the huge benefitsof, from my point of view, of
virtual speech, is that mybusiness partner, we we know
exactly how each other work. Weknow how to speak to each other.
We have a lot of respect foreach other, and so if there ever
(21:15):
is anything that we mightdisagree on, it's never an
argument. It's always veryrational. Okay, well, what, what
do you think like? Why do youthink X? Why do you think y? But
yeah, generally speaking, it'sbeen very clear cut
Dave Crenshaw (21:29):
that can't be overemphasized, because many
partnerships don't work verywell. They end up having riffs
or not working together. Theband breaks up, so to speak. So
the fact that you two have foundthat sweet spot of being able to
communicate work together,that's admirable and and
something that I think anyonelistening to this needs to
(21:50):
strive for, I might suggesthaving a written document to
make that division more cleardown the road, but it worked for
you with what you did clearly.
So you founded the company, andnot long after you were able to
get VC money. Is that correct?
And for those who areunfamiliar, that's venture
capital. That means someoneinvesting money into virtual
(22:12):
speech to help it grow. How didthat come about?
Unknown (22:15):
So we released the first version of virtual speech
onto the app stores, more so wecould access it with anyone
else. We released that inFebruary 2016 and because VR was
so new, then, we were the firstvirtual reality app to overcome
the fear of public speaking. Andbecause we were a new use case,
and we were very fortunate to bepicked up by the press, so we
(22:39):
were in the New York Times, forexample, which we literally just
sent each other, one WhatsApp,like, oh, look, we're in the New
York Times. How cool. Okay,yeah, we had we were so naive in
that we just created it forourselves and didn't see it as a
business. At that point. We werelike, Oh, how cool. Someone's
seen it, written about it. Butas a result of things like that,
(23:02):
we had over 100,000 downloads inthe first six months virtual
reality in 2016 that wasprobably everyone who was using
virtual reality. And we wereapproached by a company called
Boost VC, and we were invited toapply for their accelerator
program, which involved themproviding in almost it was, it
(23:23):
was a small amount of cashinjection in exchange for
equity. And then we went andlived out in Silicon Valley for
three months. So we had thatwhole experience. And, yeah, it
was brilliant.
Dave Crenshaw (23:34):
Could you talk to me about that three month
experience? What that was like?
Unknown (23:38):
Yeah. So we were, there were about 10 to 15 different
companies there that were allfocused on virtual reality,
augmented reality, emergingtechnologies. And so it was
really inspiring to be aroundother people who were in the
same industry, because Icertainly didn't know anybody
else working in that world, letalone trying to build a business
(24:02):
in that world. And that periodof time was pivotal for us in
terms of taking virtual speech abit more seriously, rather than
just something that we coulduse, that actually, this is
something that other peoplecould use, and actually we want
as many people to know about itas possible.
Dave Crenshaw (24:19):
And what was the day to day like was the VC
involved in giving mentorship?
Did they assign people to guideand lead the work that you were
doing on a practical level?
Unknown (24:31):
How did that work? All of these companies were working
in the same co working space.
The VCs would work in the samespace. So the people who behind
boost VC were working in thesame space as us, they would
organize fireside chats withother entrepreneurs about how
they'd built their companies,experiences they'd had. And we
also could have theintroductions from our VCs to
(24:52):
other VCs, or if they hadcontacts at some of these big.
Company. So for example,somebody we spoke to worked at
Glassdoor, and we were talkingto them about what would then
become a VR interview practice.
Dave Crenshaw (25:09):
That's a great example of that power of
association, of spending timewith other people who are trying
to do like things. So that'salready a recurring aspect of
your story. So you spent a fewmonths there, and then came back
to the UK and started to buildthe business. Did you ever get
more venture capital money? Orfrom that point forward, were
(25:30):
you focused on bootstrapping thebusiness?
Unknown (25:33):
I would say, in all honesty, we spent a couple of
years not knowing whether to
Dave Crenshaw (25:38):
raise money or not. Yeah, it's a hard question,
yeah. And
Unknown (25:41):
I think sometimes people think that's the only
option and the only route tosuccess, and in hindsight, me
and Don are both very glad thatwe didn't, because back in 2017
there was a bit of a hype cyclearound VCs investing in VR
companies and then them hiringlots of people, but actually the
market demand wasn't there yetto sustain that growth and even
(26:05):
just sustain those salaries ofthese people they hired, and you
can get trapped into a VC cycleof you can't get the revenue to
sustain yourself, so you have toraise again. And
Dave Crenshaw (26:16):
very true. I've seen that happen where companies
just get addicted to gettingmore money rather than getting
more sales. Yeah, exactly.
Unknown (26:25):
And so we decided to grow with the market instead.
And we knew we had a productthat people wanted, it was just
how we could a spread the wordabout that product, but B
monetized that product as wellso that we could actually have
it as our full time jobs, andrather than just something that
(26:45):
we did for fun on the side,what's
Dave Crenshaw (26:47):
a mistake that you made during that growth
period that later turned into alesson that you won't forget,
funnily
Unknown (26:55):
enough. So when we were, for example, on that three
month accelerator, we spent somuch time working like Dom, in
particular, he was the firstperson into the office at 7am he
was that last person to leave.
We even won an award at the endof the three months, which was
called the cockroach Award,which is something that boost VC
talk about like be the cockroachand basically, cockroaches never
(27:16):
die. So we won that award forour commitment to work. So even
though we were in San Mateo forthree months, we were really
close to San Francisco. Weactually didn't explore that
much, but also I didn'tsocialize that much, which
probably isn't surprising givenmy background, but now that I am
(27:38):
more confident I'm older than Iwas, I look back and think
actually the value of thoserelationships, and I don't even
just mean value in terms ofmonetary value. I mean in terms
of learning opportunities,social opportunities, and that
area of life. I think it was amistake not to place as much
(27:59):
importance on that as I think itactually is,
Dave Crenshaw (28:04):
yeah, and it is of huge importance in so many
areas of our life, right? Ifwe're trying to have
multifaceted success, it canimpact the company financially
to build these relationships,but it can make our life better
and more rich and give usopportunity to serve other
people. So, yeah, thank you forsharing that you've mentioned
how you've gained moreconfidence as you've gotten
(28:26):
older. How much of that do youattribute to virtual speech? I
guess what I'm asking is, canyou kind of walk us through what
virtual speech does to helppeople gain more confidence?
Yeah,
Unknown (28:39):
so I would attribute 100% virtual speech, but part of
that is the product, and part ofit is my role at virtual speech.
So 100% is virtual speech theinitial kickstart, certainly.
So, for example, I could do thatpresentation in September 2017,
(28:59):
so 18 months after we launchedthe first version of virtual
speech, I was interviewed liveon BBC World News. And for
somebody who, 18 months before,couldn't order their own food in
a restaurant, that was entirelyvirtual speech because we didn't
have a business at that point.
And then from there, I havecontinued to use virtual speech.
(29:20):
I don't use it now for socialanxiety. I use it now because I
need to test the product. But Idon't rely on it now, whereas
before I even remember, actuallyfor the BBC interview, we were
literally creating a mediatraining course at that moment
in time, and I rememberthinking, gosh,
Dave Crenshaw (29:42):
oh, that's perfect, yeah. So then,
Unknown (29:44):
as the years have gone on and my role has evolved, so
for most of the last nine years,it was me endowment. I was doing
sales, and so I I've had tocontinually expose myself to
things that would make mescared. Said, so once you've
done a few phone calls, forexample, and a few demos, I felt
(30:07):
confident in what I was talkingabout. So and it was ultimately
my product, and nobody knew myproduct better than me and Don
did, so that certainly helped.
Then there were moments Iremember flying to New York on
my own for a meeting at one ofthe World Trade Center
buildings, basically. And Iremember flying there on my own
(30:28):
thinking, oh my gosh, what am Idoing? Because I'd never
actually flown anywhere on myown, let alone a seven hour
flight to one of the biggestcities in the world, and that
was always putting that originalCBT that I had, like years
before, into practice, becausesuddenly I was going for this
meeting at this massive company.
(30:51):
I was on my own. There weregoing to be, I think there were
seven or eight people in theroom. They were all men. All
could have been my dad, and Ihad to hold my own in that
situation. So again, once I doneit, I remember leaving the
office and it started snowing,and I was like, I suck. I'm in
an app Hathaway film. This isbrilliant, so I remember feeling
(31:13):
really good about it afterwards.
So putting myself in thosesituations throughout the last
few years has definitely helps.
Dave Crenshaw (31:21):
So my background Sophie was I originally coached
business owners andentrepreneurs. Now I work with
Fortune 500 companies, but oneof the things I'd always say to
my clients is that a business isa dojo for your life, because
the business is a reflection ofyou. You have to grow as an
entrepreneur. You have to becomea better person, and that will
(31:41):
make the business better andstronger. And what you're
sharing is a perfect example ofthat you had to grow. It forced
you to make changes, and thathelped you overcome your social
anxiety or lessen it, and alsolearn a variety of other
leadership skills that youwouldn't have possessed
otherwise.
Unknown (31:59):
Yeah, exactly. I've I've learned so much about so
many different things over thelast few years that I don't
think I would have done had Ihave been in a different
Dave Crenshaw (32:08):
career path. Talk to me about the inspirational
woman in tech award and also theother awards that you've
received. Where did those comefrom? What has that been like to
be given those
Unknown (32:21):
so the inspirational woman in tech award, there's a
stupid, funny story behind that.
So that was a really poshhometown in London, and it was a
black tie event, and it was thefirst event I've been to, and I
took one of my brothers with me,and I was talking to the person
who was going to read out mycategory before the event
started, and I was just chattingto them, and they were holding
(32:44):
an envelope, and I could seethey'd written down everybody's
names and they'd circled one,and they hadn't circled mine.
And so I went back to mybrother, and I was like, just so
you know, I've seen who wins.
It's not me. It's fine. Let'sjust enjoy the meal and like,
let's just clap away like yousee on TV. And so we were at
(33:08):
this table, and we were justhaving a lovely time. My country
came, and I was certain that Ihadn't won it, so I didn't have
any nerves or any, likeadrenaline or anything pumping
through me. I was just I took apicture when my name flashed up
on the screen, like, oh, look,there I am, Mum. And then they
read out my name, and I was soshocked. And my whole table
(33:30):
work, because I told them allthis story that I'm definitely
not, you know, it's not me. So,yeah, everybody on the table
went crazy. My brother'sscuffling to get his phone to
record it sent to my parents. Soyeah, turns out I had won that
award, and part of the reason Ihad won that was because in the
interview they did before, oneof the things they were asking
(33:51):
about was challenges that we'dhad along the way. And I spoke
about the mental healthchallenges that I think many
entrepreneurs face many peopleface it, but I think it's quite
unspoken about how many businessowners or entrepreneurs face
that, because it's very muchglamorized, like, Oh, if you
start a business, you'll becomeMark Zuckerberg, and that's
(34:13):
simply not the case. Andactually it's very hard and very
lonely, and there's a lot ofsacrifice involved. And so I
spoke to them about that, andthen when I won that award, and
I was speaking to themafterwards, they said that,
like, really, that was what hadpushed me over the line to
winning. It was my honesty intalking about that and wanting
(34:35):
to raise awareness of
Dave Crenshaw (34:36):
that. And I know you've won many other awards as
well over the last severalyears. Yes,
Unknown (34:41):
so things like great British Entrepreneur of the Year
awards. There's something calledthe progress 1000 which was
amazing, but bizarre to me, thatis the it's technically London's
1000 most influential people. SoI did. Used to live in London
and. But that was one of thosestories where i i was sitting
(35:03):
working from home. This was prepandemic, when nobody else was
working from home. Hence theloneliness. I was just working
from home. I'd been invited tothis event. I thought that would
be fun, and I got an email, andit was an article which was
talking about the progress 1000and it had people like Prince
Harry in there, the founder ofWikipedia. And then it had me,
(35:24):
and I was sitting there with aWinnie the Pooh blanket on me,
keeping me warm, because Ididn't put the heating on, like,
the most unglamorous situationpossible. And I was like, Oh my
gosh, this is crazy. It's about,I think, as a classic example of
people talk about, like awardsthey've won and and obviously
the achievements that have ledthose awards are very big, but
(35:46):
actually, like, the personbehind it is probably just as
shocked as anyone else, yeah,
Dave Crenshaw (35:53):
well, and I admire there is a thread running
through your story, and it's Irecognize the humility that you
have with all this, that this isall very fun and exciting for
you, and you're not takingyourself very seriously, which I
think is the right attitude tohave as an entrepreneur. So talk
(36:13):
to me about what you'recurrently working on, and where
you see things headed over thenext five years with virtual
speech. So
Unknown (36:23):
obviously we've spoken a lot about public speaking and
how we started, but now we havea catalog of over 20 courses
that are all focused oncommunication skills. So
obviously we still have publicspeaking and presentations, but
we also have job interviews,difficult conversations, giving
and receiving feedback, sales,pitching, leadership,
(36:44):
communication, over 20 coursesaround those themes, and each
one is teaching about the theoryand the techniques, but
crucially, you also get theopportunity to practice them, so
that not only can you practicethat skill, but you can build
your confidence so that you canuse that skill to your best use
(37:05):
and best ability. Something thatwe have added the start of last
year, which has taken that tothe next level, is we've
integrated generative AI so thatnow the avatars can respond to
you and give you feedback basedon exactly what you said two
years ago. That feedback was onthe delivery. So how many filler
(37:27):
words you've said? How many umsand ahs your eye contact, pace,
volume, tone, listenability,those kinds of things. But yeah,
it was only about 18 months ago,basically when the world
exploded with GPT that the appcan now understand exactly what
you're saying. It can ask youquestions based on what you're
(37:48):
saying. If you're practicing adifficult conversation, it will
respond to you based on exactlywhat you've said.
Dave Crenshaw (37:54):
Wow, that's an exciting advancement, and it's
only going to get better. Imean, we're in the very early
stages of what AI can do.
Unknown (38:02):
Yeah, exactly. So when you said it five years I was
thinking, well, I could neverhave predicted this five years
ago. So it's really difficult totell where we might be.
Something that we are working onis around a mixed reality
version of virtual speech. Sothen, for example, if you were
sitting in an empty office room,you could put on a headset and
(38:24):
you would still be able to seeyour office room, but we would
overlay our avatars onto thechairs so that you can have that
practice in a room that you'refamiliar with, or if you're
about to speak at a conferencein a room that you're not
familiar with, but we shouldhelp you get familiar With
that's
Dave Crenshaw (38:39):
exciting. As an educator, my head's spinning
with ideas and ways to make thatwork in what I do. So it's
thrilling that you are at theforefront of that, and I'll use
this as a segue too. The thing Ilove most about what you're
doing Sophie is as an educator,I believe in practical
application, learning by doing.
When I give a speech, I'm havingthe audience get up out of their
(39:04):
seats and do things, becausejust sitting and listening is
not a very effective way tolearn. So thank you for being at
the forefront of making that areality of learning, I think the
best way possible. So from that,I'm going to segue to what I do
at the end of every episode,which is, I encourage those who
have been listening to dosomething about what they've
(39:25):
heard. So you've got thiswonderful story, wonderful
example. But now, what's theapplication? What can we do? So
what I'm going to do, Sophie, isI'm going to suggest three
possible actions that someonecan take based on your story,
and then I'd love you to add oneat the end. Sound good. Okay,
okay, so the first one, and thisis a recurring theme, it's also
(39:48):
part of what virtual speechdoes, but it's how Sophie
overcame her social anxietypractice a skill you struggle
with. And. Start small, trysomething weekly, and then do a
little bit more, right? Just trya little bit more, and keep
practicing that each week. Andthe more you make just a little
(40:12):
bit of an effort, then it'sgoing to become easier for you
that exposure therapy, thatpractice, that cognitive
behavioral therapy. So choosesomething that you're struggling
with and just try somethingsmall with it. Practice that
skill. The second one is toconsider the association of
friends that you have meaning.
(40:33):
Look at the people that you'reassociating with, looking look
at the people you're spendingtime with, like Sophie found her
partner while she was in herprogram and at university, or
associating with people in theincubator in Silicon Valley,
find people who are trying to dogreat things that you want to
do. The more you spend time withthem, the easier it's going to
(40:56):
become for you to find thesuccess that you want. And then
the last one, I just want you toconsider, is your weakness
really a strength? What is itthat you struggle with that you
have a hard time with? Sophiestruggled with social anxiety,
and that led to the strength ofcreating a program to help
(41:18):
people overcome that throughvirtual speech, I struggled with
organization, that led to mecreating my course on time
management fundamentals and thebooks that I write, maybe you
have a weakness that's also astrength. So just take a moment
to consider if that's apossibility. Okay, Sophie, those
are my three. What's one thatyou would add to the list? Oh
Unknown (41:40):
my gosh, yours were brilliant.
Dave Crenshaw (41:43):
Well, they came from you.
Unknown (41:47):
I think I would just iterate really about pushing
yourself outside of your comfortzone. So if that is something
like social anxiety, it doesn'thave to be building yourself up
to do a presentation, because onday one, that sounds absolutely
terrifying, and you'd ratherjust avoid it at all costs. It
could be something simple, likesomething I used to do, for
(42:09):
example, is when family friendswould come over, people I'd
known for 15 years. I would hideupstairs at my parents house
because I didn't I didn't knowwhat to say to them. I didn't
want them to die. I was there,so just go downstairs and speak
to them. Or if you, for example,if you have, like, a regular
coffee shop that you go to askthe server how they are that
(42:30):
day, or if they've been busy,just you can start off on micro
levels, really small before youthen start to build yourself up
to having those conversations,or say, doing a virtual speech
course and practicing that youdon't have to run before you can
walk, but every little step youtake does all add up to a big
(42:50):
result. So true.
Dave Crenshaw (42:51):
Thank you for sharing that. Sophie, thank you
for your example. If people wantto follow you or learn more
about virtual speech, what's thebest place for them to go.
Unknown (43:01):
So you can go to the virtual speech website, which is
just virtual speech.com and thenwe're across all major social
media platforms as well. So youcan find us there. I personally,
if you want to, anybody wants tocontact me, I'm most active on
LinkedIn, so yeah, you're verywelcome to connect with me. Drop
me a message, and yeah, I'll getback to
Dave Crenshaw (43:19):
you. Fantastic.
Thank you so much, Sophie forsharing your wisdom and your
story with us. Very inspiring. Iappreciate it.
Unknown (43:26):
Thank you very much.
This has been really enjoyable,and thank
Dave Crenshaw (43:29):
you everyone for listening. Remember, it's not
just about the knowledge thatyou heard or gained. It's not
just about how you felt whileyou heard her story. It's about
what you do. So do one thingthis week, and you'll make
Sophie Thompson's success storya part of your success story.
Thanks for listening.
Darci Crenshaw (43:50):
You've been listening to the Dave Crenshaw
Success Show, hosted by my dad,Dave Crenshaw, and produced by
invaluable incorporated researchand assistant production by
Victoria bidez, Sound Editing byNick Wright, voiceover by me
Darci Crenshaw, and the music isby Ryan Brady via Pon five.
(44:11):
Licensing, please subscribe tothe Dave Crenshaw success show
on Apple podcasts, Spotify,wherever you like to get your
podcast. If you have asuggestion for someone my dad
might like to interview, pleasesend it to guests at Dave
crenshaw.com and please don'tforget to leave us a five star
review. See you next time you.
We were very fortunate to be picked up by the press. So
we were in the New York Times,for example, which we literally
just sent each other oneWhatsApp like, oh, look, we're
in the New York Times. How cool.
Okay, yeah, we had we were sonaive in this
Dave Crenshaw (00:17):
episode, you'll get to know Sophie Thompson, the
inspirational learner, andyou'll hear the story of how she
used her severe social anxietyto create a virtual reality
training program that's helpedhundreds of 1000s overcome their
fear of public speaking. I'mDave Crenshaw, and this is my
success Show. Welcome back,friends, to the Dave Crenshaw
(00:42):
Success Show. This is where Ispeak to some of the most
successful people I've met in mylife's journey. And I'm looking
for universal principles ofsuccess, things that can help
you and help my family succeed.
In case you're not familiar withme, I'm a best selling author. I
speak around the world ofFortune 500 companies, and I've
taught millions of people how tobe successful through my online
courses, especially my courseson LinkedIn learning. With this
(01:06):
show, I wanted to createsomething different. I was
looking to create a legacyproject specifically for my
children, because I was thinkingabout, how can I help them learn
all the wonderful lessons thatI've learned from the people
that I met, and then I thought,well, you'd enjoy learning along
with them. The goal in everyepisode is to find something you
can do, something you can putinto action today this week, so
(01:29):
that you make my guest successstory a part of your success
story. And today's guest, youabsolutely want to do that with
her man. What a story. SophieThompson co founded virtual
speech in 2016 to overcome herfear of public speaking, she
found that VR had a uniqueability to help people practice
(01:53):
in a safe environment and buildtheir skills and confidence for
real world situations, virtualspeech has been used by over a
half million people, 500,000people in more than 130
countries, and has been featuredin high profile news outlets
like the BBC, The New YorkTimes, Wall Street Journal
(02:17):
Forbes and the Huffington Post,just a few small publications.
Sophie has won several awards,such as inspirational woman in
tech for her achievements withher company. She lives in
Birmingham, England, where sheenjoys historical fiction and
swimming. Sophie, thank you somuch for spending time with us
today.
Unknown (02:37):
Thank you very much for having me.
Dave Crenshaw (02:39):
So Sophie, I'm so interested in your story,
especially as a public speakerand as someone in the training
industry. So I'm fascinated, andwe'll learn more about your
story as we get along. Talk tome about when you were younger.
I like to ask the question ofevery guest, what did you want
to be when you grew up? What didyou think you were going to
(03:01):
become?
Unknown (03:02):
Oh, well, that depends on what age you asked me. So if
you asked me when I was seven, Iwanted to be a hairdresser, then
if you asked me when I was ateenager, I wanted to be a
barrister. So I went from oneextreme to the other and ended
up doing neither. So yes,that's, that's what I wanted to
be when I was a teenager
Dave Crenshaw (03:19):
and a barrister in UK. What does that mean? A
lawyer? Basically, okay, allright, so you intended to be a
lawyer. Is that something youstudied in college? Talk to me a
little about what youruniversity experience was, yeah,
Unknown (03:35):
so I didn't actually study it. So I would say I
wanted to do that when I was inmy early teens, then as I
progressed into my later teens,I would say that's where my
social anxiety got worse, and myconfidence got less. And so I
was very worried that I mightnot get into university, which,
looking back, is very silly,because I got, like, the highest
(03:58):
possible grades, but I was kindof convinced that I wouldn't be
able to my dad just told me tostudy whatever I enjoyed,
whatever I was good at, and thenin my head, I thought whatever I
would also very easily get into.
So I studied theology andreligion at university.
Interesting, yeah. So a lot ofthat was around, like many
different religions, but also alot around like history. So my
(04:22):
dissertation, which is like mybig project at the end, was
focused on the Holocaust, forexample. So it was really
interesting. I did really enjoyit. And
Dave Crenshaw (04:34):
what was the goal with that study? Was it from a
historian perspective, or didyou actually want to go into
clergy of some kind? What wasyour end design of studying that
Unknown (04:46):
just from a historical perspective? So I, I always
found history reallyinteresting. And, yeah, I just
really enjoyed it. So I had nointention of joining the clergy
or directly applying my degree.
So. A lot of my peers, forexample, have ended up being
religious studies teachers, forexample. Whereas that wasn't my
plan. My plan was very shortterm of I enjoy learning about
(05:09):
this. I love learning. Let'spick a topic to learn more about
them and see what happens.
Dave Crenshaw (05:16):
I want to roll back just a little bit, and you
mentioned a phrase that is avery important phrase in my
family and for me, which issocial anxiety. It's something
that in particular, a couple ofmy children have dealt with in a
very severe way, and they'vegone through therapy and been
(05:36):
successful with that therapy. Sotalk to me first of all about
what your experience was, orstill is with social anxiety.
What does that look like foryou?
Unknown (05:48):
When I was a child, I thought I was just shy, and so
I'm 30, and even though that isrelatively young still, when I
was at school, say, 20 yearsago, I don't think, well,
certainly in the UK, we didn'thave the language of social
anxiety, like if, if you gotnervous about something, you
(06:08):
were just nervous. Like you werea nervous child. You were a shy
child. So I look back at certainstages of my life, and you
mentioned therapy, for example,and that's a great way of
looking back as well. And I canidentify times from when I was
as young as six that I wassocially anxious or anxious with
(06:29):
a capital A rather than a littlea like for example, I love
swimming now, but actually whenI was six, I used to get so
nervous about going swimming andlike being seen, and I felt like
people could see me more, that Iwas so nervous. One time I threw
up at the side of the poolbecause I hated that I was
there. Oh my goodness, So littlethings like that. Or I started
(06:52):
doing this thing where I wouldlike, wave my mom goodbye in the
car with my dad, and I wouldlike cross my fingers. And I'd
be like, okay, fingers crossed.
Like, nothing bad happens, whichI don't know what my parents
thought was going on in mylittle head at the time, but I
was convinced that something badmight happen, and that could be
like, I was asked to, like, readin the past, or something like
(07:14):
that, which I was very capableof doing, but I just didn't want
any attention on me, you
Dave Crenshaw (07:22):
mentioned that you're very young, and you've
accomplished a great deal atyour young age. Is social
anxiety still something that youdeal with? I guess what I'm
asking is what you did to sortof overcome that prior to
virtual speech, were there? Didyou go to therapy? Did you work
with a doctor? What? What thingsdid you attempt?
Unknown (07:41):
It took a long time to identify that that was a
problem, and it was more when itwent a step further, and I
guess, manifested itself a bitmore, along the lines of severe
depression, that I then soughthelp for that and then realized
that it was the two of themcombined. So at that point, for
example, I tried things like CBTcognitive behavioral therapy,
(08:03):
which I did find useful. Sothings like going to the gym, I
didn't go to the gym because Iwas scared. So, like we had
steps to like, I would go with afriend, I would do this and and
it did work for that, but itdidn't actually change how I
thought about myself, which Ithink was the biggest problem
for me, then I think I did havemedication at that point, but I
(08:27):
didn't want to see that as along term solution, because I
felt like that was masking thesymptoms but not the cause. So
if I came off it, would I justbe back to square one? I did
actually stop taking medication,which, again, now I look back on
I think it was just that onedidn't suit me, and then I was
just back to square one, and Ijust carried on.
Dave Crenshaw (08:49):
Was there a skill that you learned through therapy
that you still use? And thereason why I'm asking that is I
could see that someone listeningto this is identifying with it,
and say, Yeah, I have socialanxiety like Sophie is
describing. I'd love to givethem one useful thing that they
could use. Of course, virtualspeech is part of that. But
(09:10):
prior to that, is there justsomething, a tool in your belt
that you use for those moments.
Unknown (09:15):
I think the biggest takeaway I had from that era of
my life was one of the thingsthat I had to do was write down
the things I was nervous aboutor anxious about for that week,
and write it on a scale of oneto 10 for how anxious I felt
about it. And then after I haddone it, write on a scale of one
(09:36):
to 10 like how I felt about itafterwards. And I found that the
things that I was most anxiousabout, and if I then did them,
were the things that I wouldfeel most happy about, and that
if I just got over the theanxiety of it and just managed
to do it, I would then feel somuch happier than if I just
(09:58):
stayed in my lane, stayed in mycomfort. Sign, Oh, that's
Dave Crenshaw (10:01):
great. That's a wonderful skill. I think a
couple things are going on.
First, you're being objectiveabout the situation, because
anxiety is is activating thesmallest part of your brain.
It's all reactionary. And so ifyou can scale it like that with
with numbers, then you start tobecome objective and more
logical about it. And thenthat's another amazing
revelation, that the things thatyou're avoiding are actually the
(10:23):
things that would make youhappy. Thank you for sharing
that. Okay, so you're you'restudying at university where did
technology start to come intoyour story? Because I know that
that's a big part of the successthat you've had. So
Unknown (10:39):
after I did my theology degree, I realized that that
probably wasn't known to lead meinto a job, and I loved
learning, so I wanted to stay ineducation. So then I studied a
master's degree, a post grad ininternational business. And it
was while I was studying forthat that I would talk more to
my friends and my peers aboutlike business in general,
(11:01):
technology trends. And I justfind like technology so
exciting. And, yeah, really,that's where the love of
technology came from, and theneventually where virtual speech
came from. What
Dave Crenshaw (11:13):
made you want to study in international business?
That's an important thing.
Because part of the reason why Istarted this Sophie is I'm
looking for patterns of success.
And honestly, it shouldn't beshocking, but it's been shocking
to me how many people havestudied business as part of
their story to be successful.
Where did that idea come from,that that would be the good
master's degree to pursue? Ijust
Unknown (11:35):
find it really interesting learning how things
work and what increases thelikelihood of things working and
why things happen. And in a way,I think of some aspects of
business, quite like psychologyand about how the brain works
and why we do what we do, andwhy a customer might react one
way, or why a market might reactanother way. So again, similar
(11:58):
to why I studied theology, itwas actually just about what I
found interesting and what Iwould like to learn more about,
and then it just so happenedthat that would also more likely
lead to a future career as well.
Dave Crenshaw (12:11):
That's a really important point of pursuing what
you love and what you'reinterested in. Sometimes people
get stuck because they'repursuing money, and they think,
Oh, this career is going to makeme wealthy, when, in fact, it's
finding a career that you lovethat gives you the longevity
that will lead to theprosperity, which has certainly
been a part of your story. Italso sounds like a big part of
(12:32):
it is your interest inpsychology. Why people make
buying decisions and that sortof thing. Were you also studying
psychology as part of that, orwas that a hobby that you were
doing because you were dealingwith issues with social anxiety?
Where did that come from?
Unknown (12:48):
I've never formally studied it, but I used to read
quite a lot of personaldevelopment books. I think back
then they were called self helpbooks, which makes them sound a
bit more dreary, but that's amuch bigger field now, like if
you go into a bookstore, there'sso many more options now, and
people have recognized a lotmore about the importance of
(13:10):
learning about yourself and howyou can be your best self. So I
think that's partly where thepsychology element came from,
because I would find those bookshelpful and motivating. They
just hadn't kind of solved myoverriding problem of like, what
effectively was probably lowself esteem that was
(13:31):
contributing to the socialanxiety. But I found it really
interesting about, like,rewiring your brain and how that
could work. I just couldn't doit.
Dave Crenshaw (13:42):
So you got your master's degree in 2016 Correct?
Yes. Okay, and were you workingprior to that? Was there a gap
between your initial degree andthe master's degree? What were
you spending your time doing inthat space? Or were you a full
time student?
Unknown (13:59):
I was a full time student. So, I mean, I did, I
worked at a pub, for example,but yeah, I went. I finished my
undergraduate in July, and Istarted my postgraduate in
September. So it was straightaway.
Dave Crenshaw (14:12):
And then, according to what I see, you
also founded virtual speech thesame year that you graduated
with your master's degree? Isthat correct? Yes.
Unknown (14:22):
So we started virtual speech whilst I was studying for
my master's, and that wasbecause I had an assessed
presentation coming up. And formy post grad, we were all being
marked individually. So we allhad to speak. And being academic
was very important to me, andgetting the highest possible
grades is very important. Veryimportant to me, but I had this
(14:44):
massive blocker that I couldn'tget up and speak. And I was
talking to my friend who's now abusiness partner, Dom, and he
was working with virtual realityat Jaguar Land Rover, the car
company. And. And yeah, really,it was his idea that we could
create an environment or anaudience in an environment in
(15:07):
virtual reality, and I could usethat almost as a form of our own
CBT therapy, where I could thenget used to attention on me.
Basically,
Dave Crenshaw (15:19):
that's fascinating, especially the
relationship that you had withsomeone that led to the
foundation of the company, Ifind that's also a pattern of
success. Is those we associatewith will have a massive impact
on who we become and what weaccomplish in our career. Yeah,
Unknown (15:39):
hugely. I mean, I I didn't really know what virtual
reality was at that point. Imean, most people know what it
is now, or they've seen aheadset now, but back in 2016
Dave Crenshaw (15:50):
that was early, right? Yeah, really
Unknown (15:53):
early. And when he said about virtual reality, I was
like, Is that like a headset?
What? So, yeah, thankfully, he'dbeen working in that field for
even a couple of years by thatpoint. So he was really early
on. And, yeah, we just createdvirtual speech, just some, like,
I always say, like, some nerdyfun that DOM created it because
he's your classic, like,visionary entrepreneur. He's
(16:14):
always creating things, and heenjoyed creating it. And I was
almost the guinea pig testingout? Now,
Dave Crenshaw (16:22):
there's a phrase that you've used twice, which
I'm very familiar with, but Iwant if I'm thinking like my
children are learning howthey've heard it for the first
time, you mentioned CBT,cognitive behavioral therapy,
which it seems like it's a bigpart of virtual speech. It's a
big part of your story. So couldyou provide some context, some
definition of what CBT is, howit works,
Unknown (16:45):
I will try. So virtual speech is unofficially linked
with CBT, and there's now a newarea called Virtual Reality
exposure therapy, which is a bitmore closely aligned with what
we do. So the way that Iexperienced it was building
myself up to things that I wasscared of. So for example, with
something like public speaking,if I was scared of speaking to
(17:09):
an audience of 50 people, myfirst step would be speak to one
person. So that would be for methat was ordering my own food in
a restaurant, which I couldn'toriginally do. So that was step
one. Step Two might be to speakup during a group project
discussion at university andthat say in front of five
(17:30):
people, and you gradually workyour way up, and you become more
comfortable with the previousstep and more confident in your
own ability to achieve that stepbefore you then go on to the
next one, so that ultimately youend up where you want to be. So
if you think of it kind of likerungs on a ladder, that the
(17:51):
first rung was one person, thenit was five people, and then you
keep going until you get to youryour magical number of 50 in my
case, yeah, and
Dave Crenshaw (18:00):
my understanding is exposure therapy is a
specific application ofcognitive behavioral therapy. So
virtual speech. Then the conceptwas to create that sort of
environment where someone couldpractice speaking in front of a
virtual audience. What did thefirst version in 2016 look like,
(18:20):
like, I'm thinking of what's,what was that second life,
right? It was pretty clunky andblocky in the beginning. Was it
like that with virtual speech?
Unknown (18:29):
I mean, yeah, ultimately, it would have been,
but there wasn't an alternativeat that point. Like, if you if
so, for example, if I was to usethe first version of virtual
speech now, now that we're like,eight, nine years along in the
technology, it would seem veryclunky at the time because it
was so new. And I think thefirst version had, like, very
(18:50):
minimal environments. It wasgreen screened people. So we
actually still have one of theserooms, because our customers
have become, like, actually,really like it, and I guess I'm
quite emotionally attached to ittoo. One of the environments
where we basically filmed all ofour friends, and they are the
audience members. Oh, that'sgreat. There's one of the
(19:11):
environments where you go intoit and I can be like, Oh, that's
Paula, that's Olivia, that'smad, and it's basically mine and
Dom's friends at the time.
Dave Crenshaw (19:20):
Okay, so you actually have real people inside
the immersion.
Unknown (19:24):
So we have some environments where we've
recorded people and then placedthem into a conference room,
which we have created, likecomputer generated, and then we
have some environments which areavatar based. There's pros and
cons to both, but from myexperience, I preferred to have
the real people there, becausewith them looking at me, I felt
(19:48):
like that was much morerealistic and emotionally
evocative than an avatar lookingat me. But the benefit of
avatars is they can be moreinteractive, so they can react
to what you say. They can havepractice conversations with you.
So that's why we've we've gotboth in there who
Dave Crenshaw (20:05):
was doing the programming in that, because up
to this point in your story, youhadn't mentioned anything with
computer design or computerdevelopment. So was that in
partnership with your friend?
Was that something that youhired other people to do? How
did you get the expertise youneeded to create that that was
Dom, great. So that partnershiptogether allowed that to occur,
yeah,
Unknown (20:25):
so I say that in the early days, Dom was the tech guy
and I was the everything elsegirl. That was how we split the
roles when we first started.
Dave Crenshaw (20:34):
That's really important, though, in a
partnership, is to have a cleardividing line. Did you do it
just through a conversation, orwas it written down just through
conversation? Did you everexperience any kind of overlap
or bumping into each other andresponsibilities with that? Or
did it still seem pretty cleanbecause the line was simple,
Unknown (20:53):
it was always pretty clean, and even today, it's
pretty clean. Like we've beenworking together for nine years
now, like we've never arguedabout anything. I think that's
one of like, the huge benefitsof, from my point of view, of
virtual speech, is that mybusiness partner, we we know
exactly how each other work. Weknow how to speak to each other.
We have a lot of respect foreach other, and so if there ever
(21:15):
is anything that we mightdisagree on, it's never an
argument. It's always veryrational. Okay, well, what, what
do you think like? Why do youthink X? Why do you think y? But
yeah, generally speaking, it'sbeen very clear cut
Dave Crenshaw (21:29):
that can't be overemphasized, because many
partnerships don't work verywell. They end up having riffs
or not working together. Theband breaks up, so to speak. So
the fact that you two have foundthat sweet spot of being able to
communicate work together,that's admirable and and
something that I think anyonelistening to this needs to
(21:50):
strive for, I might suggesthaving a written document to
make that division more cleardown the road, but it worked for
you with what you did clearly.
So you founded the company, andnot long after you were able to
get VC money. Is that correct?
And for those who areunfamiliar, that's venture
capital. That means someoneinvesting money into virtual
(22:12):
speech to help it grow. How didthat come about?
Unknown (22:15):
So we released the first version of virtual speech
onto the app stores, more so wecould access it with anyone
else. We released that inFebruary 2016 and because VR was
so new, then, we were the firstvirtual reality app to overcome
the fear of public speaking. Andbecause we were a new use case,
and we were very fortunate to bepicked up by the press, so we
(22:39):
were in the New York Times, forexample, which we literally just
sent each other, one WhatsApp,like, oh, look, we're in the New
York Times. How cool. Okay,yeah, we had we were so naive in
that we just created it forourselves and didn't see it as a
business. At that point. We werelike, Oh, how cool. Someone's
seen it, written about it. Butas a result of things like that,
(23:02):
we had over 100,000 downloads inthe first six months virtual
reality in 2016 that wasprobably everyone who was using
virtual reality. And we wereapproached by a company called
Boost VC, and we were invited toapply for their accelerator
program, which involved themproviding in almost it was, it
(23:23):
was a small amount of cashinjection in exchange for
equity. And then we went andlived out in Silicon Valley for
three months. So we had thatwhole experience. And, yeah, it
was brilliant.
Dave Crenshaw (23:34):
Could you talk to me about that three month
experience? What that was like?
Unknown (23:38):
Yeah. So we were, there were about 10 to 15 different
companies there that were allfocused on virtual reality,
augmented reality, emergingtechnologies. And so it was
really inspiring to be aroundother people who were in the
same industry, because Icertainly didn't know anybody
else working in that world, letalone trying to build a business
(24:02):
in that world. And that periodof time was pivotal for us in
terms of taking virtual speech abit more seriously, rather than
just something that we coulduse, that actually, this is
something that other peoplecould use, and actually we want
as many people to know about itas possible.
Dave Crenshaw (24:19):
And what was the day to day like was the VC
involved in giving mentorship?
Did they assign people to guideand lead the work that you were
doing on a practical level?
Unknown (24:31):
How did that work? All of these companies were working
in the same co working space.
The VCs would work in the samespace. So the people who behind
boost VC were working in thesame space as us, they would
organize fireside chats withother entrepreneurs about how
they'd built their companies,experiences they'd had. And we
also could have theintroductions from our VCs to
(24:52):
other VCs, or if they hadcontacts at some of these big.
Company. So for example,somebody we spoke to worked at
Glassdoor, and we were talkingto them about what would then
become a VR interview practice.
Dave Crenshaw (25:09):
That's a great example of that power of
association, of spending timewith other people who are trying
to do like things. So that'salready a recurring aspect of
your story. So you spent a fewmonths there, and then came back
to the UK and started to buildthe business. Did you ever get
more venture capital money? Orfrom that point forward, were
(25:30):
you focused on bootstrapping thebusiness?
Unknown (25:33):
I would say, in all honesty, we spent a couple of
years not knowing whether to
Dave Crenshaw (25:38):
raise money or not. Yeah, it's a hard question,
yeah. And
Unknown (25:41):
I think sometimes people think that's the only
option and the only route tosuccess, and in hindsight, me
and Don are both very glad thatwe didn't, because back in 2017
there was a bit of a hype cyclearound VCs investing in VR
companies and then them hiringlots of people, but actually the
market demand wasn't there yetto sustain that growth and even
(26:05):
just sustain those salaries ofthese people they hired, and you
can get trapped into a VC cycleof you can't get the revenue to
sustain yourself, so you have toraise again. And
Dave Crenshaw (26:16):
very true. I've seen that happen where companies
just get addicted to gettingmore money rather than getting
more sales. Yeah, exactly.
Unknown (26:25):
And so we decided to grow with the market instead.
And we knew we had a productthat people wanted, it was just
how we could a spread the wordabout that product, but B
monetized that product as wellso that we could actually have
it as our full time jobs, andrather than just something that
(26:45):
we did for fun on the side,what's
Dave Crenshaw (26:47):
a mistake that you made during that growth
period that later turned into alesson that you won't forget,
funnily
Unknown (26:55):
enough. So when we were, for example, on that three
month accelerator, we spent somuch time working like Dom, in
particular, he was the firstperson into the office at 7am he
was that last person to leave.
We even won an award at the endof the three months, which was
called the cockroach Award,which is something that boost VC
talk about like be the cockroachand basically, cockroaches never
(27:16):
die. So we won that award forour commitment to work. So even
though we were in San Mateo forthree months, we were really
close to San Francisco. Weactually didn't explore that
much, but also I didn'tsocialize that much, which
probably isn't surprising givenmy background, but now that I am
(27:38):
more confident I'm older than Iwas, I look back and think
actually the value of thoserelationships, and I don't even
just mean value in terms ofmonetary value. I mean in terms
of learning opportunities,social opportunities, and that
area of life. I think it was amistake not to place as much
(27:59):
importance on that as I think itactually is,
Dave Crenshaw (28:04):
yeah, and it is of huge importance in so many
areas of our life, right? Ifwe're trying to have
multifaceted success, it canimpact the company financially
to build these relationships,but it can make our life better
and more rich and give usopportunity to serve other
people. So, yeah, thank you forsharing that you've mentioned
how you've gained moreconfidence as you've gotten
(28:26):
older. How much of that do youattribute to virtual speech? I
guess what I'm asking is, canyou kind of walk us through what
virtual speech does to helppeople gain more confidence?
Yeah,
Unknown (28:39):
so I would attribute 100% virtual speech, but part of
that is the product, and part ofit is my role at virtual speech.
So 100% is virtual speech theinitial kickstart, certainly.
So, for example, I could do thatpresentation in September 2017,
(28:59):
so 18 months after we launchedthe first version of virtual
speech, I was interviewed liveon BBC World News. And for
somebody who, 18 months before,couldn't order their own food in
a restaurant, that was entirelyvirtual speech because we didn't
have a business at that point.
And then from there, I havecontinued to use virtual speech.
(29:20):
I don't use it now for socialanxiety. I use it now because I
need to test the product. But Idon't rely on it now, whereas
before I even remember, actuallyfor the BBC interview, we were
literally creating a mediatraining course at that moment
in time, and I rememberthinking, gosh,
Dave Crenshaw (29:42):
oh, that's perfect, yeah. So then,
Unknown (29:44):
as the years have gone on and my role has evolved, so
for most of the last nine years,it was me endowment. I was doing
sales, and so I I've had tocontinually expose myself to
things that would make mescared. Said, so once you've
done a few phone calls, forexample, and a few demos, I felt
(30:07):
confident in what I was talkingabout. So and it was ultimately
my product, and nobody knew myproduct better than me and Don
did, so that certainly helped.
Then there were moments Iremember flying to New York on
my own for a meeting at one ofthe World Trade Center
buildings, basically. And Iremember flying there on my own
(30:28):
thinking, oh my gosh, what am Idoing? Because I'd never
actually flown anywhere on myown, let alone a seven hour
flight to one of the biggestcities in the world, and that
was always putting that originalCBT that I had, like years
before, into practice, becausesuddenly I was going for this
meeting at this massive company.
(30:51):
I was on my own. There weregoing to be, I think there were
seven or eight people in theroom. They were all men. All
could have been my dad, and Ihad to hold my own in that
situation. So again, once I doneit, I remember leaving the
office and it started snowing,and I was like, I suck. I'm in
an app Hathaway film. This isbrilliant, so I remember feeling
(31:13):
really good about it afterwards.
So putting myself in thosesituations throughout the last
few years has definitely helps.
Dave Crenshaw (31:21):
So my background Sophie was I originally coached
business owners andentrepreneurs. Now I work with
Fortune 500 companies, but oneof the things I'd always say to
my clients is that a business isa dojo for your life, because
the business is a reflection ofyou. You have to grow as an
entrepreneur. You have to becomea better person, and that will
(31:41):
make the business better andstronger. And what you're
sharing is a perfect example ofthat you had to grow. It forced
you to make changes, and thathelped you overcome your social
anxiety or lessen it, and alsolearn a variety of other
leadership skills that youwouldn't have possessed
otherwise.
Unknown (31:59):
Yeah, exactly. I've I've learned so much about so
many different things over thelast few years that I don't
think I would have done had Ihave been in a different
Dave Crenshaw (32:08):
career path. Talk to me about the inspirational
woman in tech award and also theother awards that you've
received. Where did those comefrom? What has that been like to
be given those
Unknown (32:21):
so the inspirational woman in tech award, there's a
stupid, funny story behind that.
So that was a really poshhometown in London, and it was a
black tie event, and it was thefirst event I've been to, and I
took one of my brothers with me,and I was talking to the person
who was going to read out mycategory before the event
started, and I was just chattingto them, and they were holding
(32:44):
an envelope, and I could seethey'd written down everybody's
names and they'd circled one,and they hadn't circled mine.
And so I went back to mybrother, and I was like, just so
you know, I've seen who wins.
It's not me. It's fine. Let'sjust enjoy the meal and like,
let's just clap away like yousee on TV. And so we were at
(33:08):
this table, and we were justhaving a lovely time. My country
came, and I was certain that Ihadn't won it, so I didn't have
any nerves or any, likeadrenaline or anything pumping
through me. I was just I took apicture when my name flashed up
on the screen, like, oh, look,there I am, Mum. And then they
read out my name, and I was soshocked. And my whole table
(33:30):
work, because I told them allthis story that I'm definitely
not, you know, it's not me. So,yeah, everybody on the table
went crazy. My brother'sscuffling to get his phone to
record it sent to my parents. Soyeah, turns out I had won that
award, and part of the reason Ihad won that was because in the
interview they did before, oneof the things they were asking
(33:51):
about was challenges that we'dhad along the way. And I spoke
about the mental healthchallenges that I think many
entrepreneurs face many peopleface it, but I think it's quite
unspoken about how many businessowners or entrepreneurs face
that, because it's very muchglamorized, like, Oh, if you
start a business, you'll becomeMark Zuckerberg, and that's
(34:13):
simply not the case. Andactually it's very hard and very
lonely, and there's a lot ofsacrifice involved. And so I
spoke to them about that, andthen when I won that award, and
I was speaking to themafterwards, they said that,
like, really, that was what hadpushed me over the line to
winning. It was my honesty intalking about that and wanting
(34:35):
to raise awareness of
Dave Crenshaw (34:36):
that. And I know you've won many other awards as
well over the last severalyears. Yes,
Unknown (34:41):
so things like great British Entrepreneur of the Year
awards. There's something calledthe progress 1000 which was
amazing, but bizarre to me, thatis the it's technically London's
1000 most influential people. SoI did. Used to live in London
and. But that was one of thosestories where i i was sitting
(35:03):
working from home. This was prepandemic, when nobody else was
working from home. Hence theloneliness. I was just working
from home. I'd been invited tothis event. I thought that would
be fun, and I got an email, andit was an article which was
talking about the progress 1000and it had people like Prince
Harry in there, the founder ofWikipedia. And then it had me,
(35:24):
and I was sitting there with aWinnie the Pooh blanket on me,
keeping me warm, because Ididn't put the heating on, like,
the most unglamorous situationpossible. And I was like, Oh my
gosh, this is crazy. It's about,I think, as a classic example of
people talk about, like awardsthey've won and and obviously
the achievements that have ledthose awards are very big, but
(35:46):
actually, like, the personbehind it is probably just as
shocked as anyone else, yeah,
Dave Crenshaw (35:53):
well, and I admire there is a thread running
through your story, and it's Irecognize the humility that you
have with all this, that this isall very fun and exciting for
you, and you're not takingyourself very seriously, which I
think is the right attitude tohave as an entrepreneur. So talk
(36:13):
to me about what you'recurrently working on, and where
you see things headed over thenext five years with virtual
speech. So
Unknown (36:23):
obviously we've spoken a lot about public speaking and
how we started, but now we havea catalog of over 20 courses
that are all focused oncommunication skills. So
obviously we still have publicspeaking and presentations, but
we also have job interviews,difficult conversations, giving
and receiving feedback, sales,pitching, leadership,
(36:44):
communication, over 20 coursesaround those themes, and each
one is teaching about the theoryand the techniques, but
crucially, you also get theopportunity to practice them, so
that not only can you practicethat skill, but you can build
your confidence so that you canuse that skill to your best use
(37:05):
and best ability. Something thatwe have added the start of last
year, which has taken that tothe next level, is we've
integrated generative AI so thatnow the avatars can respond to
you and give you feedback basedon exactly what you said two
years ago. That feedback was onthe delivery. So how many filler
(37:27):
words you've said? How many umsand ahs your eye contact, pace,
volume, tone, listenability,those kinds of things. But yeah,
it was only about 18 months ago,basically when the world
exploded with GPT that the appcan now understand exactly what
you're saying. It can ask youquestions based on what you're
(37:48):
saying. If you're practicing adifficult conversation, it will
respond to you based on exactlywhat you've said.
Dave Crenshaw (37:54):
Wow, that's an exciting advancement, and it's
only going to get better. Imean, we're in the very early
stages of what AI can do.
Unknown (38:02):
Yeah, exactly. So when you said it five years I was
thinking, well, I could neverhave predicted this five years
ago. So it's really difficult totell where we might be.
Something that we are working onis around a mixed reality
version of virtual speech. Sothen, for example, if you were
sitting in an empty office room,you could put on a headset and
(38:24):
you would still be able to seeyour office room, but we would
overlay our avatars onto thechairs so that you can have that
practice in a room that you'refamiliar with, or if you're
about to speak at a conferencein a room that you're not
familiar with, but we shouldhelp you get familiar With
that's
Dave Crenshaw (38:39):
exciting. As an educator, my head's spinning
with ideas and ways to make thatwork in what I do. So it's
thrilling that you are at theforefront of that, and I'll use
this as a segue too. The thing Ilove most about what you're
doing Sophie is as an educator,I believe in practical
application, learning by doing.
When I give a speech, I'm havingthe audience get up out of their
(39:04):
seats and do things, becausejust sitting and listening is
not a very effective way tolearn. So thank you for being at
the forefront of making that areality of learning, I think the
best way possible. So from that,I'm going to segue to what I do
at the end of every episode,which is, I encourage those who
have been listening to dosomething about what they've
(39:25):
heard. So you've got thiswonderful story, wonderful
example. But now, what's theapplication? What can we do? So
what I'm going to do, Sophie, isI'm going to suggest three
possible actions that someonecan take based on your story,
and then I'd love you to add oneat the end. Sound good. Okay,
okay, so the first one, and thisis a recurring theme, it's also
(39:48):
part of what virtual speechdoes, but it's how Sophie
overcame her social anxietypractice a skill you struggle
with. And. Start small, trysomething weekly, and then do a
little bit more, right? Just trya little bit more, and keep
practicing that each week. Andthe more you make just a little
(40:12):
bit of an effort, then it'sgoing to become easier for you
that exposure therapy, thatpractice, that cognitive
behavioral therapy. So choosesomething that you're struggling
with and just try somethingsmall with it. Practice that
skill. The second one is toconsider the association of
friends that you have meaning.
(40:33):
Look at the people that you'reassociating with, looking look
at the people you're spendingtime with, like Sophie found her
partner while she was in herprogram and at university, or
associating with people in theincubator in Silicon Valley,
find people who are trying to dogreat things that you want to
do. The more you spend time withthem, the easier it's going to
(40:56):
become for you to find thesuccess that you want. And then
the last one, I just want you toconsider, is your weakness
really a strength? What is itthat you struggle with that you
have a hard time with? Sophiestruggled with social anxiety,
and that led to the strength ofcreating a program to help
(41:18):
people overcome that throughvirtual speech, I struggled with
organization, that led to mecreating my course on time
management fundamentals and thebooks that I write, maybe you
have a weakness that's also astrength. So just take a moment
to consider if that's apossibility. Okay, Sophie, those
are my three. What's one thatyou would add to the list? Oh
Unknown (41:40):
my gosh, yours were brilliant.
Dave Crenshaw (41:43):
Well, they came from you.
Unknown (41:47):
I think I would just iterate really about pushing
yourself outside of your comfortzone. So if that is something
like social anxiety, it doesn'thave to be building yourself up
to do a presentation, because onday one, that sounds absolutely
terrifying, and you'd ratherjust avoid it at all costs. It
could be something simple, likesomething I used to do, for
(42:09):
example, is when family friendswould come over, people I'd
known for 15 years. I would hideupstairs at my parents house
because I didn't I didn't knowwhat to say to them. I didn't
want them to die. I was there,so just go downstairs and speak
to them. Or if you, for example,if you have, like, a regular
coffee shop that you go to askthe server how they are that
(42:30):
day, or if they've been busy,just you can start off on micro
levels, really small before youthen start to build yourself up
to having those conversations,or say, doing a virtual speech
course and practicing that youdon't have to run before you can
walk, but every little step youtake does all add up to a big
(42:50):
result. So true.
Dave Crenshaw (42:51):
Thank you for sharing that. Sophie, thank you
for your example. If people wantto follow you or learn more
about virtual speech, what's thebest place for them to go.
Unknown (43:01):
So you can go to the virtual speech website, which is
just virtual speech.com and thenwe're across all major social
media platforms as well. So youcan find us there. I personally,
if you want to, anybody wants tocontact me, I'm most active on
LinkedIn, so yeah, you're verywelcome to connect with me. Drop
me a message, and yeah, I'll getback to
Dave Crenshaw (43:19):
you. Fantastic.
Thank you so much, Sophie forsharing your wisdom and your
story with us. Very inspiring. Iappreciate it.
Unknown (43:26):
Thank you very much.
This has been really enjoyable,and thank
Dave Crenshaw (43:29):
you everyone for listening. Remember, it's not
just about the knowledge thatyou heard or gained. It's not
just about how you felt whileyou heard her story. It's about
what you do. So do one thingthis week, and you'll make
Sophie Thompson's success storya part of your success story.
Thanks for listening.
Darci Crenshaw (43:50):
You've been listening to the Dave Crenshaw
Success Show, hosted by my dad,Dave Crenshaw, and produced by
invaluable incorporated researchand assistant production by
Victoria bidez, Sound Editing byNick Wright, voiceover by me
Darci Crenshaw, and the music isby Ryan Brady via Pon five.
(44:11):
Licensing, please subscribe tothe Dave Crenshaw success show
on Apple podcasts, Spotify,wherever you like to get your
podcast. If you have asuggestion for someone my dad
might like to interview, pleasesend it to guests at Dave
crenshaw.com and please don'tforget to leave us a five star
review. See you next time you.
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