December 18, 2024 • 49 mins
Caroline Webb is a renowned executive coach, author, and speaker known for her expertise in using behavioral science to enhance professional life. Caroline shares her journey from aspiring astrophysicist to a leading leadership coach, discussing pivotal career transitions, her time at McKinsey, and how she turned challenges into opportunities. Listen to her story today and choose which action best suits your goals.
Action Principles
Pick one to do this week:
1. Learn a little about economics. Exploring economics will help you understand decision-making and the broader world better. ACTION ITEM: Take a course to learn more about economics.
2. Run small experiments. Before making significant life or career changes, test ideas on a smaller scale. ACTION ITEM: Experiment with a new idea or change for 30 days to test the outcome.
3. Look for good intentions. View others' actions through a compassionate lens. ACTION ITEM: When someone is behaving negatively, try to see their actions through an empathetic eye.
4. Set personal boundaries. Identify your peak productivity times or personal preferences and be transparent with others about them. ACTION ITEM: Pick one area in your life that needs an adjustment and communicate this change to those affected.
Guest Resources
Learn more about working with Caroline Webb at carolinewebb.co.
Suggested LinkedIn Learning Course
Time Management Fundamentals
Free Time Management Course
Thanks to Dave Crenshaw's partnership with Microsoft and LinkedIn Learning, you can get free access to his full course, Time Management Fundamentals, at DaveGift.com.
Dave Crenshaw develops productive leaders in Fortune 500 companies, universities, and organizations of every size. He has appeared in Time magazine, USA Today, FastCompany, and the BBC News. His courses on LinkedIn Learning have been viewed tens of millions of times. His five books have been published in eight languages, the most popular of which is The Myth of Multitasking—a time management bestseller. As an author, speaker, and online instructor, Dave has transformed the lives and careers of hundreds of thousands around the world. DaveCrenshaw.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Caroline Webb (00:00):
I got some comments from various clients
that they would have liked tobook to back up what I was
doing. So I thought, Okay, well,at least I can think of at least
three people who might buy thisbook. If I write,
Dave Crenshaw (00:12):
no kidding, I had a post it note on my desk
saying, this is for Sarah. Thisis for Nyan. This is for Peter.
In this episode, you'll get toknow Caroline Webb, the science
centered leadership coach, andyou'll hear the story of how she
turned her interest in economicsinto a career as one of the most
esteemed leadership coaches inthe world. I'm Dave Crenshaw,
(00:34):
and this is my success Show.
Welcome back, friends to theDave Crenshaw Success Show. This
is where I speak to some of themost successful people in my
life's journey, and I'm on thehunt for universal principles of
success to help both you and myfamily succeed. In case it's
your first time here, I'm a bestselling author. I speak around
(00:56):
the world of Fortune 500companies, and I've taught
millions of people how to besuccessful through my online
courses, particularly my courseson LinkedIn, learning with this
show, I wanted to do something alittle bit different, create a
legacy project, really. First ofall, I was inspired to help my
children succeed. But then Ithought, Well, I think everyone
else would enjoy learning alongwith them. I interview people
(01:18):
who have multi faceted successin many areas of their lives,
not just career or financialsuccess. And what I'm looking
for are actions that you cantake right now today to become
more successful. So as youlisten to today's episode, look
for something you can do. Lookfor an action that you can take
today or this week, and thenthat way you'll make my guest
(01:40):
success story a part of yoursuccess story, and my guest
today is someone you'll want todo that with Caroline Webb is an
executive coach, author andspeaker. She's known for being
one of the world's leadingexperts in using insights from
behavioral science to improveprofessional life. She has
multiple courses on LinkedInlearning, and her best selling
(02:02):
book, How to Have a good day hasbeen published in 17 editions in
over 60 countries. She's also asenior advisor to the consulting
firm McKinsey, where she waspreviously a partner. She's also
an enthusiastic amateur singerfor the Cecilia chorus of New
York and has performed inCarnegie Hall six times.
(02:24):
Caroline, it's an honor to haveyou here today. I'm delighted to
be here, and I always like toask my guests, where are you
today? While I'm interviewingyou, I am today in New York
City, sitting in my office onthe Upper West Side. Lovely. I
love New York City and the UpperWest Side, that's a really nice
place to live. Oh, thank you. Sowhen I saw your expertise,
(02:51):
especially in using science andleadership coaching, I thought
we absolutely have to have youon the show. And I'm really
fascinated to get your insightsinto how we can be better
leaders through your experience.
I like to start by asking all myguests the same question, which
is, when you were a teenager,what did you want to be when you
grew up? Oh, that's easy,because I've got a really strong
(03:13):
memory of that. I wanted to bean astrophysicist, and
specifically, I didn't want tobe in the spaceship, but I
wanted to be in NASA groundcontrol. Wow. Okay, so not an
astronaut, which is is a commonanswer, where your kid but
helping the astronauts, right?
There you go. I think I'vealways wanted to be the person
(03:33):
behind the person helping out.
Where did that interest inscience begin for you? That's a
good question. I was alwaysreally into science fiction, and
whenever I got a chance to writea story in my English class, it
would always be a sciencefiction little story of some
sort. And I loved readingAsimov, and I loved reading a
(03:53):
lot of these classic sciencefiction authors, so I really
enjoyed, you know, immersingmyself in this kind of world.
And the more I thought about it,the more I got interested in
actually helping to shape it.
And I was always quite intomath, and so was able to
conceive of the possibility ofgoing in that direction. Let's
(04:15):
say that's well, we're kindredspirits in that area. I love
science fiction. In fact, I evenwrote a science fiction novel
under a under a pen name. Sothat's fantastic that you you
love that. So were you? I'massuming that, academically
speaking, you also had a giftfor science. Academically
speaking, yeah, I was good atscience. What I discovered was
(04:39):
that I wasn't the world's best.
And actually, that was a bit ofa shock when I did run up
against that. But, you know, Ireally, you know, loved science.
I still love science, as you cantell from, you know, the fact
that it's at the root of thework that I do. Yeah, how did
you find out you were not thebest? How did you come to that,
that revelation? Well, I went toan international school that I.
Caroline Webb (05:00):
Got a scholarship to where I was suddenly
alongside kids from all aroundthe world. And actually kids
were a little bit older than meas well, in some cases. And from
being the best at physics andchemistry and math, I was
suddenly finding that actuallythere were people who were just
much, much better than I was.
And I think that was a good lifeexperience quite early on,
actually, to realize that, youknow, you might be good in a
(05:23):
small pond, but actually thereare brilliant people out there
across the world, and it's goodfor your humility, I think, to
learn that early on. That is sotrue in so many areas where we
might, in high school, beparticularly good at something,
because it's a small samplesize, right? And then you get to
the next level, and you go, Waita minute. There were a lot of
(05:43):
people in a lot of high schoolswho were at that level that I
was at exactly, exactly, yeah,so I then I had to pivot. So
when you said you were at aninternational school, you're
talking about grade school,right? High school age. So this,
this was 16 to 18. This was aUnited World College, which was
(06:03):
movement set up to try and bringkids together from different
nationalities and help buildmore connections across national
boundaries. So you know, thatwas 1617,
and that was just before I wentto university, or college, as we
call it, here in the US. Andwhere did you go for University?
(06:25):
I went to Cambridge University.
And then for my grad school, Iwent to Oxford University
because I want no imagination.
Well, those are some pretty goodnames to have on your resume,
though. I mean, that's prettyprestigious. Oh, well, thank
you. At least they're perceivedas such in the United States.
Yeah, no, I mean that they are.
But I think, you know, inretrospect, I might have
(06:45):
imagined that I could have cometo study in the US, you know,
and started my us life, youknow, a little bit earlier, at
least for grad school. Butanyway, yes, you know, that was,
that was me. I went to, went toCambridge, and then Oxford.
Let's talk about that for a bit.
So did you also study science?
And which science were youstudying when you went there?
Well, when I was at thatinternational school, I had to
(07:06):
take a class in economics, and Iwas really annoyed about it,
because I really just wanted todo straight, you know, straight
pure science, and I had to takea class in economics to make my
curriculum work. And then Idiscovered, oh, my goodness,
economics is a way of thinkingand a structured way about human
potential and performance. Andin my mind, was kind of blown by
(07:29):
that. And that was my hard turntowards social science, and I've
never really looked back. Sowhat I studied at university was
was economics, and then at gradschool economics, my first
career economics.
So Caroline for those who areunfamiliar, we've got an
audience of all age ranges andexperience for those who are
(07:51):
unfamiliar. How would you defineeconomics? What does that mean
on a day to day basis? For me,economics was always the study
and the science of how humanscan be at their best, and that
is my personal definition. Ithink other people would say
it's about how human beings makechoices. It's about how we build
prosperity, but I think at theheart of all of that is how
(08:13):
individuals carry themselves andshow up in the world. And there
are different ways that peoplestudy that, but the behavioral
aspect is where I ended up beingmost interested. I love that
addition to it, because, yeah,the definition I've heard is how
people make decisions, but don'twe want to make the best
possible decisions. So that's,that's a lovely inclusion. Thank
(08:36):
you. Yeah, so we're makingdecisions, but what? But for
what I mean, we're trying tomake the best choices we can to
help ourselves thrive, to helpother people thrive, usually in
some way. So yeah, I think atthe heart of it is, is that that
sense of what it takes forhumans to thrive and maximize
their potential, whether at anational level or global level,
(08:59):
or whether at an individuallevel. So now you're applying
economics in a in a verypersonal level, right? Often,
economics can be very macro. Infact, they even have an area of
it, for those who areunfamiliar, called
macroeconomics. So were you inthe beginning, more interested
in sort of a broad policy aspectof economics, or were you
(09:21):
interested in more of the humandecision, the microeconomics
side of things? Well, this is sofascinating to talk about. I
love that you know thesedifferent areas of economics
well. And I'll just say part ofmy story is that when I was in
college, I would read economicsbooks for fun. I actually really
enjoyed it, and I probably couldhave studied that. I ended up
(09:43):
majoring in entrepreneurship,but, but yes, I have a very
strong appreciation, not maybeas much knowledge, but a very
strong appreciation foreconomics. That's fantastic.
Well. So I was very interestedin the idea that economics could
make the world a better place.
And so I.
Naturally thinking, well, thatmeans I must work in
macroeconomics. And actuallythat was where I did end up
(10:05):
working. I worked for theBritish government on supporting
change in Eastern Europe afterthe Berlin Wall came down and a
bunch of other fascinatingpolicy jobs, but I was always
interested in the individual.
And actually, as I went furtherinto my career in economics, I
really felt that working inmacro macroeconomics was just
taking me way too far from theidea of economics being a human
(10:27):
subject, a human discipline. Andso after almost a decade, I kind
of did a record scratch, and,you know, said, okay, okay, I
really want to get back to thehuman and then I decided to make
a change and get out ofconventional economics as it was
then, okay, so you did work inthe macroeconomic sense, on
(10:48):
policy for the government. Whatdid you learn during that time?
I learned that real people makereally important decisions all
all the time about policy thataffects everybody. I can still
remember a day when I haddiscovered that the Lithuanian
(11:11):
central bank governor hadresigned, and I was, I was the
only person who seemed to knowthat in the UK. And this was
really important, because therewas some policy towards
Lithuania that was being decidedat the IMF, and I had to write
the briefing note. And Iremember thinking, oh my
goodness, it's people like me. Iwas 22 at the time, and
(11:34):
realizing that it's actuallydown to real people doing their
very best, not always having allthe facts, trying to figure out,
you know, the right thing to do.
And you know, that initiallymade me a little nervous, and
then it made me feel quiteempowered. And you know, that's
what a lot of people are workingin public service around the
(11:54):
world. You know, I'm sure feelthere's a sense of nervousness,
but it feels really good to bedoing something that feels
useful on a broader scale, andhow was it useful? Give us an
example of how someone in thatposition might affect or
influence policy and changes.
Well, I was deciding the UK'sline to take is the phrase in
diplomatic circles, the votethat the UK was going to make at
(12:18):
the IMF and the World Bank aboutlending to countries that were
in my domain. And that's veryreal. There's a very large
number that's associated withthat, and you are there trying
to make the best choice you canabout whether the UK
representative should ask thisquestion or that question, and
(12:40):
ultimately, what their voteshould be based on lots of
careful analysis that felt veryspecial. That was one of the
things I loved most about thework, was just feeling that what
you were doing potentially couldmake a lot of difference to a
lot of people. Yeah, I thinkthat's a fascinating field, and
I think the more peopleunderstand how these things
(13:01):
influence everything aroundthem, you can only be smarter
and wiser. You can be more savvyabout the decisions that you're
making on a day to day basis,like with your career. And what
am I going to focus on? So yeah,I love that. So why the change
you made that switch at somepoint to start working on a more
personal level. What causedthat, that switch to flip in
(13:24):
your mind, I started to feelthat academic economics really
didn't have clear sight of thehuman being anymore. This was
before the behavioral revolutionat broken in the UK, at least as
you can tell from my accent,that's where I'm from
originally. So I grew up, youknow, in a tradition in
(13:44):
economics that was not quite atthe same place as some schools
in the US, and the idea that,for example, you know, humans
might do anything exceptmaximize money in any given
moment, which is, you know, atthe heart of a lot of economic
models that we might care about,you know, community, or we might
(14:07):
care about our family, or wemight care about, you know, any
number of other things we mightcare about, you know, looking
good. Or some of thesepsychological dimensions that
was not present at the time inthe economics tradition, and I
was getting really frustrated bythis, and so I really wanted to
get back to more of thebehavioral side of economics,
(14:27):
which, of course, ended up beinga huge movement, but at the
time, was just a whisper. And sowhat I did was I thought, Well,
where am I going to get more ofthat chance to focus on the
human being and the idea ofhuman behavior and psychology,
and I decided to go intomanagement consulting to see if
(14:48):
I could work on organizationalchange and leadership, and that,
in the end, turned out to be agreat choice. So this leads to a
question in my mind, and.
And it might be difficult toremember, but as best you can,
can you remember the first orone of the first moments where
you actually consulted someone,where you actually provided that
(15:12):
management consulting advice?
Because that's a pretty bigturning point for anyone who
finally decides to do somethinglike that. You know, whenever
anyone has a turning point.
There's usually traces of itbeforehand, right? And honestly,
the first trace of it came whenI was sitting with the central
bank governor in Poland. Now, tobe clear, I wasn't old enough to
(15:33):
be running the meeting, but Iwas there and she was trying to
figure out how to move hercentral bank from what was
really just a kind of shell ofan organization to a real
organization that was playingthe role that a central bank
does in a modern economy. And itwas the first time that I saw
that you could sit with a seniorperson and you could help them
(15:54):
think something through, withoutnecessarily being an expert, but
having something to offerthrough your curiosity and your
care. And so that was, you know,very early on. And there were a
few of those moments, but if Igo back to the very first time
that I imagined the possibilityof doing something coaching
(16:14):
related, that was the moment,probably 1994
Oh, wow. So really, reallyearly. That was before you got
your masters Correct. Yes,that's right, that was so that
was very early on. And therewere a few moments like that.
And what happens, I think, whenyou're considering a pivot, is
you look back and you try anddraw a thread through things
that weren't originally joinedup in your mind. And then you
(16:35):
start to see, Oh, hold on,actually, if I think about peak
moments when I felt really mostexpressed as a human being. What
were those moments? And theywere almost always when I was
sitting with someone senior andhelping them think something
through. You know, my animatingforce is feeling useful. I
really want to feel useful andhelpful to help people thrive
(16:56):
and be at their very best. AndI'm lucky enough to have found a
way to make that the center ofmy work. That's fantastic.
There's something here too inthat story that I want to point
out, which is I experienced thiswhen I when I first started
coaching entrepreneurs, that'swhere I started, Caroline, and I
started in 98 I'm almost 50 now,and I was 23 when I started, and
(17:19):
I already kind of have a babyface. I look like I was 15.
There is a moment where you justjump in and you start helping
people and coaching, and yourealize, wait a minute, I have
value, especially if I'm nottrying to tell people what to
do. I think that's the mistakepeople make with coaching. They
feel like I have to be smart andtell people what to do, but
(17:41):
instead, it's about helpingpeople find what's already right
for them, what they already,kind of deep in their heart,
knows right, but for somereason, they're not doing it.
Would would you agree with that?
I would agree with that. Yeah.
And there were times early in mycareer at McKinsey where I had a
similar sort of experience. Youknow, as a consultant, sitting
with a senior, I can stillremember talking to a CFO about
(18:03):
the IT system that she needed tocommission. And I know nothing.
I really, you know, I could notopine on the actual choices, but
to help her structure herthinking. And then, you know,
help her think about how toreach the right choice. Yeah,
absolutely. Then, you know, asyou say, it's about enabling
what's inside someone. Okay, sowe've talked about the the good
(18:25):
starting experiences that you'vehad that gave you encouragement.
Is there something that you lookback on and you go, Wow, I did
not handle that, right? I couldhave done so much better in this
situation. Are there momentslike that, that that stand out
in your mind, or that you replayand learn from. Oh, absolutely.
I think everybody has momentsthat you know that didn't go
(18:47):
quite so well. You know, one ofthe challenges for me has always
been that I'm a late nightperson, and when I say late
night, I mean my body wants togo to sleep at 3am and, oh,
that's really late. Oh, yeah,yeah, absolutely. I have a the
body clock of a teenage boy.
This isand so that has always been
(19:11):
something for me to activelymanage in professional life. So,
you know, there have been timeswhen I have really had to kind
of scramble to make sure that Iam fully on and awake and able
to be fully present. And when Iwas doing a lot of group work
with clients where I would needto be sort of holding the space,
(19:33):
if you like, at 8am and, youknow, meeting with the CEO at
7am you know, it was almost thepoint where I might as well just
stay up all night.
So, you know, I would say thatthere are a few moments when
I've really, you know, I'vereally been just about able to
switch things on a moment beforeI absolutely needed to. And
(19:56):
there was one time when I sleptthrough my alarm. And so.
I always now schedule mycoaching meetings after 10am and
I find that that works betterfor everybody. I really want to
highlight that there. I thinkthat's important, more important
than someone listening to itmight have caught on so often. I
think we try to do what we thinkother people think is good. We
(20:20):
want to accommodate, and I thinkthat's important. But you also
have to understand who you areand communicate that with other
people and say, You know what?
If you want me at my best, thisis the way to do it. I think
Caroline, a couple of thingsthat I've done is, if I'm
coaching someone in person, I'mlike, I need to stand up. I
can't think as clearly when I'min this chair, and related to
(20:41):
that, a lot of the stuff that Iwould do is on phone, and they'd
say, Can we do a videoconference? I'd say, we can do a
video conference, but understandI'm gonna be moving around the
whole time, because I think bestwhen I do that, it's okay to
tell people that. It's okay tosay, let's make an adjustment,
because I want to be at my verybest for you. So true, and I've
tried to encourage people overthe years to understand that.
(21:02):
And actually, the first timethat I realized that I could set
boundaries and be clear withpeople about, you know, how I
was going to show up best, wasactually back to my career in
economics, where for a period, Iwas actually forecasting and
analyzing the US economy for theBritish authorities. And so, you
know, with the US time zones, itmeant that the markets in the US
(21:24):
didn't open until well into theUK day. And I negotiated a very
late start, and then very latefinished. I will be the last
person in the office, by longway, I will be, you know,
working hours at the end of theday that people thought were
crazy, but they suited me. Andthat taught me really early on
that actually, not only is ithelpful to be clear with
(21:45):
yourself about how to get thebest out of yourself, but
actually can be really powerfulto talk to other people, because
it meant that, you know, it gaveus more cover on a bunch of
things. And the same thinghappened then, you know what? As
a consultant, you have to fitaround your clients. You have to
fit around your colleagues, youhave to be a decent,
collaborative person. But somany people don't actually
(22:06):
articulate what they need, andthat's something I've really
advocated. Talk to us a littlebit about McKinsey. How long did
you work there? I was there for12 years, and then I moved from
being a partner to having anexternal role as a senior
advisor. So, you know, another12 years or so of being somewhat
(22:26):
connected, let's say long time.
Yeah. So how does that work tobecome a partner at McKinsey?
What do you have to do for thatto happen? What does that mean?
Well, you have to be reallyclear and distinctive in what
you're bringing to the genepool, you actually need to be
bringing something that is alittle bit different. And so in
(22:47):
order to enrich the partnership,there needs to be some clarity
about what you stand for and thekind of work you do and the kind
of work you like doing. And Iwas lucky, because, you know,
what I was doing at McKinsey waspretty unusual. It was not in
the mainstream to do behavioralchange work. And I think, you
know, there was a space for me.
And then you you know, also,realistically, you have to be
(23:08):
able to, you know, bring in somework. I mean, there's also that.
And so, you know, you have to beable to show that you are
compelling enough in what you dothat you will bring clients to
you, and that's partly what youdo, but it's also how you do it,
and who you are as a person.
That's a really interestingperspective. It puts a little
(23:30):
more emphasis on the marketingaspect of things than the sales.
In the end, it's still a sale.
But how did you do that early onin your career. How did you
actually attract people intoMcKinsey and what you were
doing? This is more of alogistics question, more of a
systems question, like, what wasyour process? Well, my process
(23:51):
isn't necessarily what everybodydoes there, but my process was
to figure out the work I mostwanted to do, and that was
leadership and organizationalchange and leadership in
thinking about top teamdynamics, in thinking about how
to coach CEOs and people in theC suite, and I went really deep
(24:12):
into thinking about whether itwas possible for us to define a
way of doing that As a firm now,everybody's different, every
partner's different. So youdon't want to tell people how to
coach their clients, but I wentquite far into trying to decide,
how should we could we show upbetter when we're working with
an executive team or a board andwe're trying to help them be the
(24:36):
best leaders they can be. So Ispent several years working to
lay down those approaches. And Iwould help teams around the
world, McKinsey teams who wereserving clients on all sorts of
topics and all sorts ofindustries. And they would say,
Oh, we've got a session with theboard. We would like to come out
of this with them feeling.
(25:00):
Like they own the, you know, thechange that we're driving. You
know, what's your what's youradvice? And so I would sit with
them, and I did that again andagain and again and again. And
eventually they pulled me in totheir situations. I'd had a
little bit of a depth ofunderstanding in healthcare,
because I had come through thepublic sector route in the UK,
(25:22):
and so I was able to understandwhat it was like to be in large,
complex, sometimes bureaucraticorganizations. And so then as
time went on, I specialized moreand more in healthcare. In fact,
I said to the healthcareleaders, I think there's a
massive opportunity for us to domore organizational change in
leadership work in healthcare.
And they said, go for it. Imean, they didn't give me a
(25:44):
budget or anything, you know,concrete like that. But they
said, Fine, you know, go andtalk to our clients and see
whether you can, you know, getthem interested in this. And so
I did. And you know, you onlyreally need one client, and then
you can tell the story of thatclient. And it was a really
great story. And so that was,that was how the momentum built.
Yeah, I want to highlight thatthat's great. You You just need
one good story, and then youtell that story. In my case, in
(26:08):
my career with coachingentrepreneurs, that's what I
did, is I located people whowere well respected in the
community, and I said, if I canhelp you, you just tell other
people what we've done. And thenthat sort of caused everything
to bloom and made it so mucheasier for me to find clients.
So I love that principle sotrue, and so much of it is about
finding someone you really clickwith. I'm sure this is true for
(26:30):
you. I happen to be put in touchwith someone who was a potential
client, McKinsey. Someonethought, oh, Caroline will get
on well with her. And you know,we're still in touch. We did
such fabulous work together, andso much of that came from us
clicking and understanding, oh,right, what you do, Caroline
could be useful to me, Helen.
(26:53):
And you know also what you do,Helen is absolutely fascinating
to me, Caroline. And so, youknow, it was a wonderful
partnership for many years. Iwant to go back just a little
bit and talk about how youspecialized in healthcare. I
think that there's a bit of adebate that people have going on
in their heads when it comes totheir career, or whether it
(27:13):
comes to their customers thatthey're targeting, of whether I
should be a specialist or ageneralist. What's your
perspective on that, havingsuccessfully grown a career by
specializing in healthcare, Iwould say that I specialize in
leadership, and I think thatthat is a kind of Swizz, because
(27:36):
by specializing in leadership, Iget to do everything, because
leaders have everything on theirplate. So if I specialize in
leadership, I get to live all oftheir lives the variety of
what's on their plates. I wasalways a jack of all trades. I
always loved having loads ofinterests, and I really enjoy,
you know, the experience ofgoing wherever a leader needs to
(27:59):
go. And so when I get the chanceto work with a CEO, or someone,
you know, who's at a senior 11organization, I get to do
everything, and that allows meto scratch the itch or really
being interested in a ton ofdifferent things, while still,
you know, saying, Well, Ispecialize in something which is
leadership, yeah, well, that's Agreat discussion, and that's why
(28:22):
I asked the question, becauseit's not a clean answer, right?
There are different ways to doit. And what I like is you found
a way to specialize, butspecialize in a way that still
allows you to generalize, right?
There you go. That's exactly,right. That's exactly I feel
like it's been a bit of a magictrick, actually.
Yeah, all right, so let's, let'sshift gears and go to the point
(28:46):
at which you decided to foundyour own company. What led to
that? And what were some ofthose early days like for you? I
never saw myself as anentrepreneur. I grew up with not
that much money at home, and soalways wanted a degree of
financial stability. So the ideathat I would deliberately quit a
(29:07):
good job and set up on my ownwas just something that I didn't
think was me at all. Andeventually, you know, there was
this sort of tension betweenthis desire for degree of
stability and security and theincreasing realization that I
had a lot of energy to build myown coaching practice, and
(29:28):
actually a lot of energy tobuild a bit of a portfolio life
where I was writing more thishad always been on the back
burner, and I really wanted togive it more space. I really
wanted to write a book about howto use behavioral science
insights in real professionallife, which was essentially what
I was doing with all of myclients, showing them how to use
(29:50):
neuroscience, psychology,behavioral economics. And, you
know, I wanted space for that. Ialso quite like the idea of
speaking. I started to speak ofit. I'd been on a couple of
radio.
Shows. I've been doing somespeaking at conferences, and I
thought I quite like this. Andso having the freedom to create
that kind of portfolio was thepull that eventually gave me the
(30:11):
courage to say, oh, okay, right,I might be about to reach escape
velocity. Took a long time, butI got there, yeah, and I think
that the hardest point foranyone who does this, any new
entrepreneurial venture, is toget the first customers or the
first client. In the case ofbeing a coach, how did you get
(30:32):
your first customers? The firstcustomers actually came from my
work at McKinsey, because I hadbeen coaching for about eight of
my 12 years there, so I had somemomentum. I had a bit of runway
and but then still, you've gotthe kind of technical factor of
leaving and therefore not beingable to take people with you,
take clients with you. That's,you know, would be unethical.
(30:56):
But what I did was I with mymain client. I had enormous
programs of work with them, andI just negotiated a big new
training program, leadershiptraining program. And so, you
know, I talked with my seniorcolleagues at McKinsey and said,
Look, you know, I am not howabout I leave that with you, and
(31:17):
then we will look at the piece,which is coaching the senior
partners, and we'll figure out away to do this collaboratively,
and then eventually that endedup, you know, being something
that we carved off. So it was avery lucky entry to being out on
your own, because I was able totake some work with agreement,
(31:39):
you know, from the place I'dpreviously been working, yeah,
that's the key, isn't it? Isthat they, they had your
agreement, because there, thereare ways to do that that are not
ethical or appropriate. But itsounds like it worked out really
well for you, yeah. And I wasreally, really cautious about
wanting to do the right thing. Imean, the other thing I would
say is that I startedexperimenting with not
(32:01):
introducing myself as being apartner at McKinsey a year
before I left, to try it on andto see what happened, and to
start to answer the questionsaying I'm leadership coach. And
that not only helped me kind oftry on a new identity, but it
also allowed me to actuallystart to tell people you know,
where I was heading. And thatwas, that was very helpful,
(32:24):
because it meant that I had alot of practice by the time I
left at saying what it was thatI was doing. But it also,
frankly, just got the word out,so I did a lot of preparation.
Let's say I'm not a kind ofperson who makes big life
decisions at the drop of a hat.
I do. I am a preparer. I am aplanner. I like that well, and
it demonstrates that that isalso a pathway that someone can
(32:48):
take. I do think a lot of peoplejump into entrepreneurship
without having planned andwithout having prepared it. So
it's refreshing to see someonewho actually was cautious and
and prepared for it. Oh, that'snice for you to say. I mean, I,
what I say to my clients whenthey're thinking about a change
is I encourage them to run smallexperiments and not to go
wholeheartedly into a new thingif they're not sure it's the
(33:10):
right thing. You know, a lot ofpeople think in a very binary
way, I'm going to quit my joband then I'm going to try this
other thing, which is veryrisky. But the way of de risking
a big pivot, a big choice inyour career, is to look for ways
to experiment. So that was oneof my ways of experimenting, was
just, how about I put myself outin the world in a different way
that actually didn't require meto have yet resigned, but it
(33:32):
allowed me to really test how itfelt. And I remember doing a
radio interview and introducingmyself as a leadership coach
rather than being a partner atMcKinsey. And I thought, oh
gosh, they'll think it'sterrible, and they'll think it's
just very boring. And no, it wastotally fine. The world didn't
end. It was actually everythingwas all right. I didn't actually
need the big brand to standbehind. And that was very
(33:55):
helpful. Oh, I love that conceptof running small experiments. I
even have a thing on the wallthat says, I'm just a scientist
experimenting. I should not besurprised when my experiments
fail. Just pleasantly surprisedwhen they succeed. Now, I
probably should change that tomy hypothesis fail, but you get
the idea, right? It's alllearning. Yeah, we just give
(34:15):
things a try and see whathappens. And it's okay if it
didn't work out the way that wethought exactly that. Yeah, talk
to us about where the concept ofhow to have a good day came
from. By the way, I love thattitle of your book. I also love
the title that's you use that inyour LinkedIn learning courses,
which, of course, I'm a big fanof where did that whole concept
come from? I was working onleadership with a bunch of
(34:39):
clients who were really smartand interesting people, and it
didn't really matter how big thejob or how smart they were,
there was just a lot of day today stuff that was weighing
people down. And, you know, byday to day stuff, I mean, you
know, were they focusing theirtime on the right things? Were
they did they feel like.
(35:00):
Energized at the end of the day.
Did they feel that theirrelationships at work were in
good shape? And the more thatthe time went on, the more and
more I realized I was spendingtime helping people on that and
often, what was the breakthroughfor me in working with people
was showing them a little bitabout how how their brain worked
and how other people's brainworks, so that they could
understand that what they'reexperiencing came down to the
(35:21):
science of why we think, feeland behave the way we do. And it
was so much of an unlock,because often they would think,
Oh, I don't know why this personis behaving like this. When I
give them this kind of feedbackand then to actually unpick it
and to show them, oh no, this isbecause their brain is going on
the defensive, and then you'vegot this fight, flight, freeze
response, oh, and, by the way,you're on the defensive as
(35:43):
you're doing it, so you andyou're radiating this because,
you know, there's emotionalcontagion, oh, and then there
will be a breakthrough, and thenwe'd be able to kind of work on
a different approach. And so Iwas doing this work year in,
year out, and eventually, one ofmy clients, who was an avid
reader, said, Have you got abook? Can you recommend a book
that writes down all the stuffthat we're doing? And I said,
(36:05):
Well, you know, there's, there'sDaniel kahnemans Thinking Fast
and Slow, and there's DanAriely, predictably irrational.
And she said, No, I've readthose. I mean, the practical
application of it, and that'swhat gave me the sense of, oh,
actually, there could be a spacefor me, because I am in I am a
translator. I translate primaryresearch into practical
application. And I think Ineeded that feeling that there
(36:28):
was a need. I got some commentsfrom various clients that they
would have liked to book to backup what I was doing. So I
thought, Okay, well, at least Ican think of at least three
people who might buy this bookif I write,
I had it, no kidding, I had apost it note on my desk saying,
this is for Sarah, this is forNyan. This is for Peter. I was
(36:50):
like, Okay, well, this is, youknow, this is for at least a few
people. Oh, that's well, and ifyou're going to write a book,
that's honestly the best way towrite it. If you try to write it
for everybody, you're going tobe unfocused, and it's not going
to come from as deep of a place,but when you're writing for just
one or a few people, it's reallyeasy to get to the emotional
(37:12):
side of it and really dig deepon what's important. Yeah, and I
think, you know, it's a goodtrick for anyone who's got a
big, long project that's, youknow, hard work is just to say,
to keep in mind, who is it for?
Who's going to benefit fromthis? Actually, you know,
there's lots of evidence tosuggest that that's actually a
very good way of keepingyourself motivated, engaging the
brain's reward system, is tokeep in mind, you know what,
(37:33):
what the benefit is and who'sgoing to benefit so this is a an
author to author question.
Dave Crenshaw (37:41):
Do you ever have not good days?
Caroline Webb (37:45):
If so, what principles do you use from it?
Oh, my goodness, I'm walkingthis talk all the time. Of
course, of course. I mean, ifnothing else, we have bad days
because of bad luck. I mean,there's lots of bad luck out
there. You can have all sorts ofthings happen to you that are
not ideal, and then the choiceis, well, how do I respond to
that? And I would say this hasbeen the journey of my adult
(38:09):
life. Is going from takingthings very seriously and
personally in my 20s to learninghow to get more psychological
distance from a situation,assuming good intent,
recognizing that most people arereally well intended. Everyone's
doing their best. There areactually very few psychopaths in
(38:29):
the world. It's a very smallpercentage. So if you're
encountering, you know, behaviorthat's annoying or problematic,
the chances are that someone'stired or something has put them
on the defensive. And you knowthat understanding that however
annoying someone some situationis, they're probably not trying
to make it bad for you, is agame changer, I think, in
(38:53):
assuming good intent. And then,you know, to back that up,
you've got to then say, Oh,well, what be some stories that
could explain their behavior?
You know, maybe their catvomited on them this morning.
Maybe, you know, maybe they'reworried about something that's
going on in their family, andthat's why they're being spiky
with you, this person that's,you know, perhaps not giving you
the greatest of days. And I findthat I'm using these techniques
(39:15):
of reappraising, aspsychologists would say,
reappraising what the story is.
The apparent story is of what'sin front of you, getting some
distance and saying, in a year'stime, what am I going to say
when I look back on this andthese distancing and reframing
techniques, I'm using them everysingle day. Every time something
(39:37):
doesn't go right. Is every dayhas something that doesn't go as
you'd hope right, right, andsome person who does something
that you didn't expect or didn'twant to have happen. But I think
having that perspective that youjust described not only helps
you personally deal with it, butalso helps you adopt a mindset
of being helpful, of beingcompassionate and.
(40:00):
Saying this is less about me andmore about how can I help this
person so that they have a goodday? Absolutely, I can't tell
you the number of times I'veseen someone who's been frowning
or has said something snappish,and I decide to adopt a stance
of, you know, curiosity, love,if I can stretch to it, but
certainly curiosity and say,okay, you know, looks like
(40:22):
you're really busy. I've got arepertoire of things, you know,
it looks like you're having along day. And usually what
happens is that there's a sortof loosening, a softening, in
the other person. And, you know,they feel seen and heard. They
might or might not open up toyou, but it shifts the energy
between the two of you very,very quickly to show curiosity
(40:44):
and care. And yes, so time andagain, it really is not just a
good mental trick for yourself,but it does change the way that
you have an impact on peoplearound you. Yes, oh, that's
really lovely. I'm glad youshared that with this. So
unfortunately, we need to startwrapping things up, but I like
to ask the question, what do yousee ahead for yourself in the
next five years? I understandyou're working on a second book,
(41:07):
correct? Yes, I'm not exactlysnappy at getting books out into
the world. I think this is goingto come out in 2026 but yes, I'm
writing a book specifically forleaders and managers to say what
would be a neat little playbookthat you could pick up for any
situation that you're dealingwith that is science based, and
(41:28):
that gives you step by stepguidance on how to handle that.
So that's what I'm deep in rightnow and then. Alongside that,
I'm coaching my wonderfulclients and adoring, you know,
the work with them and livingmultiple lives by being able to
work with people in differentindustries. And I'm I'm going to
keep on doing that basically,until I am unable to speak.
Unknown (41:51):
Oh, that's great. And in the meantime, what are you
doing for fun? How are youkeeping yourself entertained and
refreshed when not working? Oh,there are lots of things I love
to do to decompress and get myfeet on the ground. I love
gardening, and I've come to thatsomewhat late in life, but I
love poking about in the dirt. Ilove singing, and a lot of the
(42:15):
time I'm singing with theCecilia chorus of New York, and
we're performing big concerts atCarnegie Hall right now, I'm on
hiatus because I'm trying tomake Thank you. I'm trying to
make big choices about creatingspace to work on the book, and
so that's one of the choices Ihave to make right now, but, but
I'll be back. As they say, Ilike making costumes. And yeah,
(42:37):
I mean, you know, I think it'sreally important to pay
attention to the things thatgive you joy and pleasure, and
make sure you've got enough ofthat going through the days, you
know, even at hard times, toknow where you're going to get a
boost, and to be deliberateabout putting that in your day.
Yeah? Really important. Yeah. Sotrue. So this has been super
helpful. Caroline, thank you forsharing this with us. This is
(42:59):
the point in every interviewwhere I like to help my audience
find action, find something thatthey can do today or this week,
right? Because you've shared somany wonderful things with us in
your story, but I want to helpsomeone actually do something
about it. So what I'm going todo is I'm going to summarize
(43:19):
just three. There were so manyin here, but just three of the
actions that stood out to methat anyone can can take, no
matter what their age or wherethey are in their career. And
then I'd like you to add onemore after that. Sound good? You
got it? Okay, so the first one,and this is, I admit, I'm a
little biased toward this, butboy, it's helpful. Learn a
(43:41):
little bit about economics. Justtake some time and read about
it. You can there are courses onLinkedIn, learning. You can look
up something on YouTube. Thereare some wonderful books if you
want to dive in deep. I actuallyhave one on my shelf, basic
economics. It's really good.
Understanding a little bit aboutthat helps you understand the
world around you, helps youunderstand some of the big
(44:02):
picture things that are takingplace, and also some of the
little decisions, the microeconomics that lead people to
make choices. Just learn alittle bit about it, and I think
it will educate some of thedecisions that you make in your
life and in your career. Thesecond one, I really liked this,
and we talked about it, and I'vetalked about the quote on my
wall. Run small experiments. Ihave a thing that reminds me to
(44:25):
test things out for a month. Soif I've got some new idea in my
business, I say, Okay, I'mgonna, I'm gonna go with this
for 30 days, and then I'm gonnastop and reassess and look at
what the data is telling me. Youdon't need to drop everything.
You do not need to quit your jobquite yet. Give it a try for a
month or two, reassess the data,and then decide if you're going
(44:47):
to make the next step. I lovethat that Caroline brought that
up, and then I'm going tohighlight that principle that
she said at the end from herbook, How to Have a good day.
Most people are.
Caroline Webb (45:00):
Trying to do their best. And think about
that. Think about the lastmoment. It may have happened
today or yesterday, wheresomeone did something that you
didn't like. Maybe it wasn'teven on a personal level, you
just saw someone do somethingsilly in public. And ask
yourself, I love Caroline. Yousaid, what are the stories? What
(45:20):
could be the story behind this?
And just try to do that a littlebit more. Assume that someone is
trying to do their best, andmaybe they were just having a
bad day, maybe something causedthem to do that. And I think if
you start to incorporate thatinto your life, you'll be more
compassionate, you'll be morepatient, and you're going to
feel a lot less stressed aboutthe things that other people do.
(45:42):
I love that Caroline. What's onethat you would add to that list?
One other that I could pick outfrom our conversation is the
importance of knowing what ittakes for you to get the best
out of yourself, and being openwith people about that. So in my
case, is being clear when I'm atmy best during the day, and that
that's not early morning, and tobe okay with talking to people
(46:02):
about that, and maybe for you,it's that, you know the early
morning is your precious time,and actually, you'd prefer not
to have other people claimingthe time for that reason. And I
think, you know, we are a littleshy sometimes of saying what it
is that we need in order to beat our best. I think maybe we're
getting better at it over theyears, but a lot of people I
(46:24):
meet still aren't super clearwhen their peak times are and
how to sell that time tothemselves and protect it, and
the conversations they need tohave with their colleagues and
family in order to do that. Oh,fantastic. Thank you for sharing
that with us, Caroline. So justa reminder to everyone, the book
that she wrote is how to have agood day. You can also look up
(46:46):
her courses on LinkedIn,learning that's web with 2b
Dave Crenshaw (46:52):
and Caroline, if someone wants to work with you
or they want to follow you,what's the best place for them
to go? My website iscarolineweb.co
Caroline Webb (47:02):
that.co's at the end. There are lots of Caroline
webs in the world. I have notgot.com
so come find me@carolineweb.co
Dave Crenshaw (47:10):
and send me a message there. I'll be delighted
to hear from you great.cobecause you mean business,
right. Ha, ha, ha, there you go.
Thank you so much for sharingthis with us, Caroline. Thank
you for being here, and thankyou everyone for listening.
Remember, it's not just aboutthe knowledge that you received
or the inspiration that youfelt, it's about the action that
you take. So do something todayor this week based on what
(47:32):
Caroline shared with you, andyou'll make her success story a
part of your success story.
Thanks for listening.
Unknown (47:41):
You've been listening to the Dave Crenshaw Success
Show, hosted by my dad, DaveCrenshaw, and produced by
invaluable incorporated researchand assistant production by
Victoria Bidez, Sound Editing byNikic Wright, voiceover by me,
Darci Crenshaw, and the music isby Ryan Brady via Pon five
(48:02):
licensing, please subscribe tothe Dave Crenshaw success show
on Apple podcasts Spotify,wherever you like to get your
podcasts. If you have asuggestion for someone my dad
might like to interview, pleasesend it to guests at Dave
crenshaw.comand please don't forget to leave
us a five star review. See younext time you.
I got some comments from various clients
that they would have liked tobook to back up what I was
doing. So I thought, Okay, well,at least I can think of at least
three people who might buy thisbook. If I write,
Dave Crenshaw (00:12):
no kidding, I had a post it note on my desk
saying, this is for Sarah. Thisis for Nyan. This is for Peter.
In this episode, you'll get toknow Caroline Webb, the science
centered leadership coach, andyou'll hear the story of how she
turned her interest in economicsinto a career as one of the most
esteemed leadership coaches inthe world. I'm Dave Crenshaw,
(00:34):
and this is my success Show.
Welcome back, friends to theDave Crenshaw Success Show. This
is where I speak to some of themost successful people in my
life's journey, and I'm on thehunt for universal principles of
success to help both you and myfamily succeed. In case it's
your first time here, I'm a bestselling author. I speak around
(00:56):
the world of Fortune 500companies, and I've taught
millions of people how to besuccessful through my online
courses, particularly my courseson LinkedIn, learning with this
show, I wanted to do something alittle bit different, create a
legacy project, really. First ofall, I was inspired to help my
children succeed. But then Ithought, Well, I think everyone
else would enjoy learning alongwith them. I interview people
(01:18):
who have multi faceted successin many areas of their lives,
not just career or financialsuccess. And what I'm looking
for are actions that you cantake right now today to become
more successful. So as youlisten to today's episode, look
for something you can do. Lookfor an action that you can take
today or this week, and thenthat way you'll make my guest
(01:40):
success story a part of yoursuccess story, and my guest
today is someone you'll want todo that with Caroline Webb is an
executive coach, author andspeaker. She's known for being
one of the world's leadingexperts in using insights from
behavioral science to improveprofessional life. She has
multiple courses on LinkedInlearning, and her best selling
(02:02):
book, How to Have a good day hasbeen published in 17 editions in
over 60 countries. She's also asenior advisor to the consulting
firm McKinsey, where she waspreviously a partner. She's also
an enthusiastic amateur singerfor the Cecilia chorus of New
York and has performed inCarnegie Hall six times.
(02:24):
Caroline, it's an honor to haveyou here today. I'm delighted to
be here, and I always like toask my guests, where are you
today? While I'm interviewingyou, I am today in New York
City, sitting in my office onthe Upper West Side. Lovely. I
love New York City and the UpperWest Side, that's a really nice
place to live. Oh, thank you. Sowhen I saw your expertise,
(02:51):
especially in using science andleadership coaching, I thought
we absolutely have to have youon the show. And I'm really
fascinated to get your insightsinto how we can be better
leaders through your experience.
I like to start by asking all myguests the same question, which
is, when you were a teenager,what did you want to be when you
grew up? Oh, that's easy,because I've got a really strong
(03:13):
memory of that. I wanted to bean astrophysicist, and
specifically, I didn't want tobe in the spaceship, but I
wanted to be in NASA groundcontrol. Wow. Okay, so not an
astronaut, which is is a commonanswer, where your kid but
helping the astronauts, right?
There you go. I think I'vealways wanted to be the person
(03:33):
behind the person helping out.
Where did that interest inscience begin for you? That's a
good question. I was alwaysreally into science fiction, and
whenever I got a chance to writea story in my English class, it
would always be a sciencefiction little story of some
sort. And I loved readingAsimov, and I loved reading a
(03:53):
lot of these classic sciencefiction authors, so I really
enjoyed, you know, immersingmyself in this kind of world.
And the more I thought about it,the more I got interested in
actually helping to shape it.
And I was always quite intomath, and so was able to
conceive of the possibility ofgoing in that direction. Let's
(04:15):
say that's well, we're kindredspirits in that area. I love
science fiction. In fact, I evenwrote a science fiction novel
under a under a pen name. Sothat's fantastic that you you
love that. So were you? I'massuming that, academically
speaking, you also had a giftfor science. Academically
speaking, yeah, I was good atscience. What I discovered was
(04:39):
that I wasn't the world's best.
And actually, that was a bit ofa shock when I did run up
against that. But, you know, Ireally, you know, loved science.
I still love science, as you cantell from, you know, the fact
that it's at the root of thework that I do. Yeah, how did
you find out you were not thebest? How did you come to that,
that revelation? Well, I went toan international school that I.
Caroline Webb (05:00):
Got a scholarship to where I was suddenly
alongside kids from all aroundthe world. And actually kids
were a little bit older than meas well, in some cases. And from
being the best at physics andchemistry and math, I was
suddenly finding that actuallythere were people who were just
much, much better than I was.
And I think that was a good lifeexperience quite early on,
actually, to realize that, youknow, you might be good in a
(05:23):
small pond, but actually thereare brilliant people out there
across the world, and it's goodfor your humility, I think, to
learn that early on. That is sotrue in so many areas where we
might, in high school, beparticularly good at something,
because it's a small samplesize, right? And then you get to
the next level, and you go, Waita minute. There were a lot of
(05:43):
people in a lot of high schoolswho were at that level that I
was at exactly, exactly, yeah,so I then I had to pivot. So
when you said you were at aninternational school, you're
talking about grade school,right? High school age. So this,
this was 16 to 18. This was aUnited World College, which was
(06:03):
movement set up to try and bringkids together from different
nationalities and help buildmore connections across national
boundaries. So you know, thatwas 1617,
and that was just before I wentto university, or college, as we
call it, here in the US. Andwhere did you go for University?
(06:25):
I went to Cambridge University.
And then for my grad school, Iwent to Oxford University
because I want no imagination.
Well, those are some pretty goodnames to have on your resume,
though. I mean, that's prettyprestigious. Oh, well, thank
you. At least they're perceivedas such in the United States.
Yeah, no, I mean that they are.
But I think, you know, inretrospect, I might have
(06:45):
imagined that I could have cometo study in the US, you know,
and started my us life, youknow, a little bit earlier, at
least for grad school. Butanyway, yes, you know, that was,
that was me. I went to, went toCambridge, and then Oxford.
Let's talk about that for a bit.
So did you also study science?
And which science were youstudying when you went there?
Well, when I was at thatinternational school, I had to
(07:06):
take a class in economics, and Iwas really annoyed about it,
because I really just wanted todo straight, you know, straight
pure science, and I had to takea class in economics to make my
curriculum work. And then Idiscovered, oh, my goodness,
economics is a way of thinkingand a structured way about human
potential and performance. Andin my mind, was kind of blown by
(07:29):
that. And that was my hard turntowards social science, and I've
never really looked back. Sowhat I studied at university was
was economics, and then at gradschool economics, my first
career economics.
So Caroline for those who areunfamiliar, we've got an
audience of all age ranges andexperience for those who are
(07:51):
unfamiliar. How would you defineeconomics? What does that mean
on a day to day basis? For me,economics was always the study
and the science of how humanscan be at their best, and that
is my personal definition. Ithink other people would say
it's about how human beings makechoices. It's about how we build
prosperity, but I think at theheart of all of that is how
(08:13):
individuals carry themselves andshow up in the world. And there
are different ways that peoplestudy that, but the behavioral
aspect is where I ended up beingmost interested. I love that
addition to it, because, yeah,the definition I've heard is how
people make decisions, but don'twe want to make the best
possible decisions. So that's,that's a lovely inclusion. Thank
(08:36):
you. Yeah, so we're makingdecisions, but what? But for
what I mean, we're trying tomake the best choices we can to
help ourselves thrive, to helpother people thrive, usually in
some way. So yeah, I think atthe heart of it is, is that that
sense of what it takes forhumans to thrive and maximize
their potential, whether at anational level or global level,
(08:59):
or whether at an individuallevel. So now you're applying
economics in a in a verypersonal level, right? Often,
economics can be very macro. Infact, they even have an area of
it, for those who areunfamiliar, called
macroeconomics. So were you inthe beginning, more interested
in sort of a broad policy aspectof economics, or were you
(09:21):
interested in more of the humandecision, the microeconomics
side of things? Well, this is sofascinating to talk about. I
love that you know thesedifferent areas of economics
well. And I'll just say part ofmy story is that when I was in
college, I would read economicsbooks for fun. I actually really
enjoyed it, and I probably couldhave studied that. I ended up
(09:43):
majoring in entrepreneurship,but, but yes, I have a very
strong appreciation, not maybeas much knowledge, but a very
strong appreciation foreconomics. That's fantastic.
Well. So I was very interestedin the idea that economics could
make the world a better place.
And so I.
Naturally thinking, well, thatmeans I must work in
macroeconomics. And actuallythat was where I did end up
(10:05):
working. I worked for theBritish government on supporting
change in Eastern Europe afterthe Berlin Wall came down and a
bunch of other fascinatingpolicy jobs, but I was always
interested in the individual.
And actually, as I went furtherinto my career in economics, I
really felt that working inmacro macroeconomics was just
taking me way too far from theidea of economics being a human
(10:27):
subject, a human discipline. Andso after almost a decade, I kind
of did a record scratch, and,you know, said, okay, okay, I
really want to get back to thehuman and then I decided to make
a change and get out ofconventional economics as it was
then, okay, so you did work inthe macroeconomic sense, on
(10:48):
policy for the government. Whatdid you learn during that time?
I learned that real people makereally important decisions all
all the time about policy thataffects everybody. I can still
remember a day when I haddiscovered that the Lithuanian
(11:11):
central bank governor hadresigned, and I was, I was the
only person who seemed to knowthat in the UK. And this was
really important, because therewas some policy towards
Lithuania that was being decidedat the IMF, and I had to write
the briefing note. And Iremember thinking, oh my
goodness, it's people like me. Iwas 22 at the time, and
(11:34):
realizing that it's actuallydown to real people doing their
very best, not always having allthe facts, trying to figure out,
you know, the right thing to do.
And you know, that initiallymade me a little nervous, and
then it made me feel quiteempowered. And you know, that's
what a lot of people are workingin public service around the
(11:54):
world. You know, I'm sure feelthere's a sense of nervousness,
but it feels really good to bedoing something that feels
useful on a broader scale, andhow was it useful? Give us an
example of how someone in thatposition might affect or
influence policy and changes.
Well, I was deciding the UK'sline to take is the phrase in
diplomatic circles, the votethat the UK was going to make at
(12:18):
the IMF and the World Bank aboutlending to countries that were
in my domain. And that's veryreal. There's a very large
number that's associated withthat, and you are there trying
to make the best choice you canabout whether the UK
representative should ask thisquestion or that question, and
(12:40):
ultimately, what their voteshould be based on lots of
careful analysis that felt veryspecial. That was one of the
things I loved most about thework, was just feeling that what
you were doing potentially couldmake a lot of difference to a
lot of people. Yeah, I thinkthat's a fascinating field, and
I think the more peopleunderstand how these things
(13:01):
influence everything aroundthem, you can only be smarter
and wiser. You can be more savvyabout the decisions that you're
making on a day to day basis,like with your career. And what
am I going to focus on? So yeah,I love that. So why the change
you made that switch at somepoint to start working on a more
personal level. What causedthat, that switch to flip in
(13:24):
your mind, I started to feelthat academic economics really
didn't have clear sight of thehuman being anymore. This was
before the behavioral revolutionat broken in the UK, at least as
you can tell from my accent,that's where I'm from
originally. So I grew up, youknow, in a tradition in
(13:44):
economics that was not quite atthe same place as some schools
in the US, and the idea that,for example, you know, humans
might do anything exceptmaximize money in any given
moment, which is, you know, atthe heart of a lot of economic
models that we might care about,you know, community, or we might
(14:07):
care about our family, or wemight care about, you know, any
number of other things we mightcare about, you know, looking
good. Or some of thesepsychological dimensions that
was not present at the time inthe economics tradition, and I
was getting really frustrated bythis, and so I really wanted to
get back to more of thebehavioral side of economics,
(14:27):
which, of course, ended up beinga huge movement, but at the
time, was just a whisper. And sowhat I did was I thought, Well,
where am I going to get more ofthat chance to focus on the
human being and the idea ofhuman behavior and psychology,
and I decided to go intomanagement consulting to see if
(14:48):
I could work on organizationalchange and leadership, and that,
in the end, turned out to be agreat choice. So this leads to a
question in my mind, and.
And it might be difficult toremember, but as best you can,
can you remember the first orone of the first moments where
you actually consulted someone,where you actually provided that
(15:12):
management consulting advice?
Because that's a pretty bigturning point for anyone who
finally decides to do somethinglike that. You know, whenever
anyone has a turning point.
There's usually traces of itbeforehand, right? And honestly,
the first trace of it came whenI was sitting with the central
bank governor in Poland. Now, tobe clear, I wasn't old enough to
(15:33):
be running the meeting, but Iwas there and she was trying to
figure out how to move hercentral bank from what was
really just a kind of shell ofan organization to a real
organization that was playingthe role that a central bank
does in a modern economy. And itwas the first time that I saw
that you could sit with a seniorperson and you could help them
(15:54):
think something through, withoutnecessarily being an expert, but
having something to offerthrough your curiosity and your
care. And so that was, you know,very early on. And there were a
few of those moments, but if Igo back to the very first time
that I imagined the possibilityof doing something coaching
(16:14):
related, that was the moment,probably 1994
Oh, wow. So really, reallyearly. That was before you got
your masters Correct. Yes,that's right, that was so that
was very early on. And therewere a few moments like that.
And what happens, I think, whenyou're considering a pivot, is
you look back and you try anddraw a thread through things
that weren't originally joinedup in your mind. And then you
(16:35):
start to see, Oh, hold on,actually, if I think about peak
moments when I felt really mostexpressed as a human being. What
were those moments? And theywere almost always when I was
sitting with someone senior andhelping them think something
through. You know, my animatingforce is feeling useful. I
really want to feel useful andhelpful to help people thrive
(16:56):
and be at their very best. AndI'm lucky enough to have found a
way to make that the center ofmy work. That's fantastic.
There's something here too inthat story that I want to point
out, which is I experienced thiswhen I when I first started
coaching entrepreneurs, that'swhere I started, Caroline, and I
started in 98 I'm almost 50 now,and I was 23 when I started, and
(17:19):
I already kind of have a babyface. I look like I was 15.
There is a moment where you justjump in and you start helping
people and coaching, and yourealize, wait a minute, I have
value, especially if I'm nottrying to tell people what to
do. I think that's the mistakepeople make with coaching. They
feel like I have to be smart andtell people what to do, but
(17:41):
instead, it's about helpingpeople find what's already right
for them, what they already,kind of deep in their heart,
knows right, but for somereason, they're not doing it.
Would would you agree with that?
I would agree with that. Yeah.
And there were times early in mycareer at McKinsey where I had a
similar sort of experience. Youknow, as a consultant, sitting
with a senior, I can stillremember talking to a CFO about
(18:03):
the IT system that she needed tocommission. And I know nothing.
I really, you know, I could notopine on the actual choices, but
to help her structure herthinking. And then, you know,
help her think about how toreach the right choice. Yeah,
absolutely. Then, you know, asyou say, it's about enabling
what's inside someone. Okay, sowe've talked about the the good
(18:25):
starting experiences that you'vehad that gave you encouragement.
Is there something that you lookback on and you go, Wow, I did
not handle that, right? I couldhave done so much better in this
situation. Are there momentslike that, that that stand out
in your mind, or that you replayand learn from. Oh, absolutely.
I think everybody has momentsthat you know that didn't go
(18:47):
quite so well. You know, one ofthe challenges for me has always
been that I'm a late nightperson, and when I say late
night, I mean my body wants togo to sleep at 3am and, oh,
that's really late. Oh, yeah,yeah, absolutely. I have a the
body clock of a teenage boy.
This isand so that has always been
(19:11):
something for me to activelymanage in professional life. So,
you know, there have been timeswhen I have really had to kind
of scramble to make sure that Iam fully on and awake and able
to be fully present. And when Iwas doing a lot of group work
with clients where I would needto be sort of holding the space,
(19:33):
if you like, at 8am and, youknow, meeting with the CEO at
7am you know, it was almost thepoint where I might as well just
stay up all night.
So, you know, I would say thatthere are a few moments when
I've really, you know, I'vereally been just about able to
switch things on a moment beforeI absolutely needed to. And
(19:56):
there was one time when I sleptthrough my alarm. And so.
I always now schedule mycoaching meetings after 10am and
I find that that works betterfor everybody. I really want to
highlight that there. I thinkthat's important, more important
than someone listening to itmight have caught on so often. I
think we try to do what we thinkother people think is good. We
(20:20):
want to accommodate, and I thinkthat's important. But you also
have to understand who you areand communicate that with other
people and say, You know what?
If you want me at my best, thisis the way to do it. I think
Caroline, a couple of thingsthat I've done is, if I'm
coaching someone in person, I'mlike, I need to stand up. I
can't think as clearly when I'min this chair, and related to
(20:41):
that, a lot of the stuff that Iwould do is on phone, and they'd
say, Can we do a videoconference? I'd say, we can do a
video conference, but understandI'm gonna be moving around the
whole time, because I think bestwhen I do that, it's okay to
tell people that. It's okay tosay, let's make an adjustment,
because I want to be at my verybest for you. So true, and I've
tried to encourage people overthe years to understand that.
(21:02):
And actually, the first timethat I realized that I could set
boundaries and be clear withpeople about, you know, how I
was going to show up best, wasactually back to my career in
economics, where for a period, Iwas actually forecasting and
analyzing the US economy for theBritish authorities. And so, you
know, with the US time zones, itmeant that the markets in the US
(21:24):
didn't open until well into theUK day. And I negotiated a very
late start, and then very latefinished. I will be the last
person in the office, by longway, I will be, you know,
working hours at the end of theday that people thought were
crazy, but they suited me. Andthat taught me really early on
that actually, not only is ithelpful to be clear with
(21:45):
yourself about how to get thebest out of yourself, but
actually can be really powerfulto talk to other people, because
it meant that, you know, it gaveus more cover on a bunch of
things. And the same thinghappened then, you know what? As
a consultant, you have to fitaround your clients. You have to
fit around your colleagues, youhave to be a decent,
collaborative person. But somany people don't actually
(22:06):
articulate what they need, andthat's something I've really
advocated. Talk to us a littlebit about McKinsey. How long did
you work there? I was there for12 years, and then I moved from
being a partner to having anexternal role as a senior
advisor. So, you know, another12 years or so of being somewhat
(22:26):
connected, let's say long time.
Yeah. So how does that work tobecome a partner at McKinsey?
What do you have to do for thatto happen? What does that mean?
Well, you have to be reallyclear and distinctive in what
you're bringing to the genepool, you actually need to be
bringing something that is alittle bit different. And so in
(22:47):
order to enrich the partnership,there needs to be some clarity
about what you stand for and thekind of work you do and the kind
of work you like doing. And Iwas lucky, because, you know,
what I was doing at McKinsey waspretty unusual. It was not in
the mainstream to do behavioralchange work. And I think, you
know, there was a space for me.
And then you you know, also,realistically, you have to be
(23:08):
able to, you know, bring in somework. I mean, there's also that.
And so, you know, you have to beable to show that you are
compelling enough in what you dothat you will bring clients to
you, and that's partly what youdo, but it's also how you do it,
and who you are as a person.
That's a really interestingperspective. It puts a little
(23:30):
more emphasis on the marketingaspect of things than the sales.
In the end, it's still a sale.
But how did you do that early onin your career. How did you
actually attract people intoMcKinsey and what you were
doing? This is more of alogistics question, more of a
systems question, like, what wasyour process? Well, my process
(23:51):
isn't necessarily what everybodydoes there, but my process was
to figure out the work I mostwanted to do, and that was
leadership and organizationalchange and leadership in
thinking about top teamdynamics, in thinking about how
to coach CEOs and people in theC suite, and I went really deep
(24:12):
into thinking about whether itwas possible for us to define a
way of doing that As a firm now,everybody's different, every
partner's different. So youdon't want to tell people how to
coach their clients, but I wentquite far into trying to decide,
how should we could we show upbetter when we're working with
an executive team or a board andwe're trying to help them be the
(24:36):
best leaders they can be. So Ispent several years working to
lay down those approaches. And Iwould help teams around the
world, McKinsey teams who wereserving clients on all sorts of
topics and all sorts ofindustries. And they would say,
Oh, we've got a session with theboard. We would like to come out
of this with them feeling.
(25:00):
Like they own the, you know, thechange that we're driving. You
know, what's your what's youradvice? And so I would sit with
them, and I did that again andagain and again and again. And
eventually they pulled me in totheir situations. I'd had a
little bit of a depth ofunderstanding in healthcare,
because I had come through thepublic sector route in the UK,
(25:22):
and so I was able to understandwhat it was like to be in large,
complex, sometimes bureaucraticorganizations. And so then as
time went on, I specialized moreand more in healthcare. In fact,
I said to the healthcareleaders, I think there's a
massive opportunity for us to domore organizational change in
leadership work in healthcare.
And they said, go for it. Imean, they didn't give me a
(25:44):
budget or anything, you know,concrete like that. But they
said, Fine, you know, go andtalk to our clients and see
whether you can, you know, getthem interested in this. And so
I did. And you know, you onlyreally need one client, and then
you can tell the story of thatclient. And it was a really
great story. And so that was,that was how the momentum built.
Yeah, I want to highlight thatthat's great. You You just need
one good story, and then youtell that story. In my case, in
(26:08):
my career with coachingentrepreneurs, that's what I
did, is I located people whowere well respected in the
community, and I said, if I canhelp you, you just tell other
people what we've done. And thenthat sort of caused everything
to bloom and made it so mucheasier for me to find clients.
So I love that principle sotrue, and so much of it is about
finding someone you really clickwith. I'm sure this is true for
(26:30):
you. I happen to be put in touchwith someone who was a potential
client, McKinsey. Someonethought, oh, Caroline will get
on well with her. And you know,we're still in touch. We did
such fabulous work together, andso much of that came from us
clicking and understanding, oh,right, what you do, Caroline
could be useful to me, Helen.
(26:53):
And you know also what you do,Helen is absolutely fascinating
to me, Caroline. And so, youknow, it was a wonderful
partnership for many years. Iwant to go back just a little
bit and talk about how youspecialized in healthcare. I
think that there's a bit of adebate that people have going on
in their heads when it comes totheir career, or whether it
(27:13):
comes to their customers thatthey're targeting, of whether I
should be a specialist or ageneralist. What's your
perspective on that, havingsuccessfully grown a career by
specializing in healthcare, Iwould say that I specialize in
leadership, and I think thatthat is a kind of Swizz, because
(27:36):
by specializing in leadership, Iget to do everything, because
leaders have everything on theirplate. So if I specialize in
leadership, I get to live all oftheir lives the variety of
what's on their plates. I wasalways a jack of all trades. I
always loved having loads ofinterests, and I really enjoy,
you know, the experience ofgoing wherever a leader needs to
(27:59):
go. And so when I get the chanceto work with a CEO, or someone,
you know, who's at a senior 11organization, I get to do
everything, and that allows meto scratch the itch or really
being interested in a ton ofdifferent things, while still,
you know, saying, Well, Ispecialize in something which is
leadership, yeah, well, that's Agreat discussion, and that's why
(28:22):
I asked the question, becauseit's not a clean answer, right?
There are different ways to doit. And what I like is you found
a way to specialize, butspecialize in a way that still
allows you to generalize, right?
There you go. That's exactly,right. That's exactly I feel
like it's been a bit of a magictrick, actually.
Yeah, all right, so let's, let'sshift gears and go to the point
(28:46):
at which you decided to foundyour own company. What led to
that? And what were some ofthose early days like for you? I
never saw myself as anentrepreneur. I grew up with not
that much money at home, and soalways wanted a degree of
financial stability. So the ideathat I would deliberately quit a
(29:07):
good job and set up on my ownwas just something that I didn't
think was me at all. Andeventually, you know, there was
this sort of tension betweenthis desire for degree of
stability and security and theincreasing realization that I
had a lot of energy to build myown coaching practice, and
(29:28):
actually a lot of energy tobuild a bit of a portfolio life
where I was writing more thishad always been on the back
burner, and I really wanted togive it more space. I really
wanted to write a book about howto use behavioral science
insights in real professionallife, which was essentially what
I was doing with all of myclients, showing them how to use
(29:50):
neuroscience, psychology,behavioral economics. And, you
know, I wanted space for that. Ialso quite like the idea of
speaking. I started to speak ofit. I'd been on a couple of
radio.
Shows. I've been doing somespeaking at conferences, and I
thought I quite like this. Andso having the freedom to create
that kind of portfolio was thepull that eventually gave me the
(30:11):
courage to say, oh, okay, right,I might be about to reach escape
velocity. Took a long time, butI got there, yeah, and I think
that the hardest point foranyone who does this, any new
entrepreneurial venture, is toget the first customers or the
first client. In the case ofbeing a coach, how did you get
(30:32):
your first customers? The firstcustomers actually came from my
work at McKinsey, because I hadbeen coaching for about eight of
my 12 years there, so I had somemomentum. I had a bit of runway
and but then still, you've gotthe kind of technical factor of
leaving and therefore not beingable to take people with you,
take clients with you. That's,you know, would be unethical.
(30:56):
But what I did was I with mymain client. I had enormous
programs of work with them, andI just negotiated a big new
training program, leadershiptraining program. And so, you
know, I talked with my seniorcolleagues at McKinsey and said,
Look, you know, I am not howabout I leave that with you, and
(31:17):
then we will look at the piece,which is coaching the senior
partners, and we'll figure out away to do this collaboratively,
and then eventually that endedup, you know, being something
that we carved off. So it was avery lucky entry to being out on
your own, because I was able totake some work with agreement,
(31:39):
you know, from the place I'dpreviously been working, yeah,
that's the key, isn't it? Isthat they, they had your
agreement, because there, thereare ways to do that that are not
ethical or appropriate. But itsounds like it worked out really
well for you, yeah. And I wasreally, really cautious about
wanting to do the right thing. Imean, the other thing I would
say is that I startedexperimenting with not
(32:01):
introducing myself as being apartner at McKinsey a year
before I left, to try it on andto see what happened, and to
start to answer the questionsaying I'm leadership coach. And
that not only helped me kind oftry on a new identity, but it
also allowed me to actuallystart to tell people you know,
where I was heading. And thatwas, that was very helpful,
(32:24):
because it meant that I had alot of practice by the time I
left at saying what it was thatI was doing. But it also,
frankly, just got the word out,so I did a lot of preparation.
Let's say I'm not a kind ofperson who makes big life
decisions at the drop of a hat.
I do. I am a preparer. I am aplanner. I like that well, and
it demonstrates that that isalso a pathway that someone can
(32:48):
take. I do think a lot of peoplejump into entrepreneurship
without having planned andwithout having prepared it. So
it's refreshing to see someonewho actually was cautious and
and prepared for it. Oh, that'snice for you to say. I mean, I,
what I say to my clients whenthey're thinking about a change
is I encourage them to run smallexperiments and not to go
wholeheartedly into a new thingif they're not sure it's the
(33:10):
right thing. You know, a lot ofpeople think in a very binary
way, I'm going to quit my joband then I'm going to try this
other thing, which is veryrisky. But the way of de risking
a big pivot, a big choice inyour career, is to look for ways
to experiment. So that was oneof my ways of experimenting, was
just, how about I put myself outin the world in a different way
that actually didn't require meto have yet resigned, but it
(33:32):
allowed me to really test how itfelt. And I remember doing a
radio interview and introducingmyself as a leadership coach
rather than being a partner atMcKinsey. And I thought, oh
gosh, they'll think it'sterrible, and they'll think it's
just very boring. And no, it wastotally fine. The world didn't
end. It was actually everythingwas all right. I didn't actually
need the big brand to standbehind. And that was very
(33:55):
helpful. Oh, I love that conceptof running small experiments. I
even have a thing on the wallthat says, I'm just a scientist
experimenting. I should not besurprised when my experiments
fail. Just pleasantly surprisedwhen they succeed. Now, I
probably should change that tomy hypothesis fail, but you get
the idea, right? It's alllearning. Yeah, we just give
(34:15):
things a try and see whathappens. And it's okay if it
didn't work out the way that wethought exactly that. Yeah, talk
to us about where the concept ofhow to have a good day came
from. By the way, I love thattitle of your book. I also love
the title that's you use that inyour LinkedIn learning courses,
which, of course, I'm a big fanof where did that whole concept
come from? I was working onleadership with a bunch of
(34:39):
clients who were really smartand interesting people, and it
didn't really matter how big thejob or how smart they were,
there was just a lot of day today stuff that was weighing
people down. And, you know, byday to day stuff, I mean, you
know, were they focusing theirtime on the right things? Were
they did they feel like.
(35:00):
Energized at the end of the day.
Did they feel that theirrelationships at work were in
good shape? And the more thatthe time went on, the more and
more I realized I was spendingtime helping people on that and
often, what was the breakthroughfor me in working with people
was showing them a little bitabout how how their brain worked
and how other people's brainworks, so that they could
understand that what they'reexperiencing came down to the
(35:21):
science of why we think, feeland behave the way we do. And it
was so much of an unlock,because often they would think,
Oh, I don't know why this personis behaving like this. When I
give them this kind of feedbackand then to actually unpick it
and to show them, oh no, this isbecause their brain is going on
the defensive, and then you'vegot this fight, flight, freeze
response, oh, and, by the way,you're on the defensive as
(35:43):
you're doing it, so you andyou're radiating this because,
you know, there's emotionalcontagion, oh, and then there
will be a breakthrough, and thenwe'd be able to kind of work on
a different approach. And so Iwas doing this work year in,
year out, and eventually, one ofmy clients, who was an avid
reader, said, Have you got abook? Can you recommend a book
that writes down all the stuffthat we're doing? And I said,
(36:05):
Well, you know, there's, there'sDaniel kahnemans Thinking Fast
and Slow, and there's DanAriely, predictably irrational.
And she said, No, I've readthose. I mean, the practical
application of it, and that'swhat gave me the sense of, oh,
actually, there could be a spacefor me, because I am in I am a
translator. I translate primaryresearch into practical
application. And I think Ineeded that feeling that there
(36:28):
was a need. I got some commentsfrom various clients that they
would have liked to book to backup what I was doing. So I
thought, Okay, well, at least Ican think of at least three
people who might buy this bookif I write,
I had it, no kidding, I had apost it note on my desk saying,
this is for Sarah, this is forNyan. This is for Peter. I was
(36:50):
like, Okay, well, this is, youknow, this is for at least a few
people. Oh, that's well, and ifyou're going to write a book,
that's honestly the best way towrite it. If you try to write it
for everybody, you're going tobe unfocused, and it's not going
to come from as deep of a place,but when you're writing for just
one or a few people, it's reallyeasy to get to the emotional
(37:12):
side of it and really dig deepon what's important. Yeah, and I
think, you know, it's a goodtrick for anyone who's got a
big, long project that's, youknow, hard work is just to say,
to keep in mind, who is it for?
Who's going to benefit fromthis? Actually, you know,
there's lots of evidence tosuggest that that's actually a
very good way of keepingyourself motivated, engaging the
brain's reward system, is tokeep in mind, you know what,
(37:33):
what the benefit is and who'sgoing to benefit so this is a an
author to author question.
Dave Crenshaw (37:41):
Do you ever have not good days?
Caroline Webb (37:45):
If so, what principles do you use from it?
Oh, my goodness, I'm walkingthis talk all the time. Of
course, of course. I mean, ifnothing else, we have bad days
because of bad luck. I mean,there's lots of bad luck out
there. You can have all sorts ofthings happen to you that are
not ideal, and then the choiceis, well, how do I respond to
that? And I would say this hasbeen the journey of my adult
(38:09):
life. Is going from takingthings very seriously and
personally in my 20s to learninghow to get more psychological
distance from a situation,assuming good intent,
recognizing that most people arereally well intended. Everyone's
doing their best. There areactually very few psychopaths in
(38:29):
the world. It's a very smallpercentage. So if you're
encountering, you know, behaviorthat's annoying or problematic,
the chances are that someone'stired or something has put them
on the defensive. And you knowthat understanding that however
annoying someone some situationis, they're probably not trying
to make it bad for you, is agame changer, I think, in
(38:53):
assuming good intent. And then,you know, to back that up,
you've got to then say, Oh,well, what be some stories that
could explain their behavior?
You know, maybe their catvomited on them this morning.
Maybe, you know, maybe they'reworried about something that's
going on in their family, andthat's why they're being spiky
with you, this person that's,you know, perhaps not giving you
the greatest of days. And I findthat I'm using these techniques
(39:15):
of reappraising, aspsychologists would say,
reappraising what the story is.
The apparent story is of what'sin front of you, getting some
distance and saying, in a year'stime, what am I going to say
when I look back on this andthese distancing and reframing
techniques, I'm using them everysingle day. Every time something
(39:37):
doesn't go right. Is every dayhas something that doesn't go as
you'd hope right, right, andsome person who does something
that you didn't expect or didn'twant to have happen. But I think
having that perspective that youjust described not only helps
you personally deal with it, butalso helps you adopt a mindset
of being helpful, of beingcompassionate and.
(40:00):
Saying this is less about me andmore about how can I help this
person so that they have a goodday? Absolutely, I can't tell
you the number of times I'veseen someone who's been frowning
or has said something snappish,and I decide to adopt a stance
of, you know, curiosity, love,if I can stretch to it, but
certainly curiosity and say,okay, you know, looks like
(40:22):
you're really busy. I've got arepertoire of things, you know,
it looks like you're having along day. And usually what
happens is that there's a sortof loosening, a softening, in
the other person. And, you know,they feel seen and heard. They
might or might not open up toyou, but it shifts the energy
between the two of you very,very quickly to show curiosity
(40:44):
and care. And yes, so time andagain, it really is not just a
good mental trick for yourself,but it does change the way that
you have an impact on peoplearound you. Yes, oh, that's
really lovely. I'm glad youshared that with this. So
unfortunately, we need to startwrapping things up, but I like
to ask the question, what do yousee ahead for yourself in the
next five years? I understandyou're working on a second book,
(41:07):
correct? Yes, I'm not exactlysnappy at getting books out into
the world. I think this is goingto come out in 2026 but yes, I'm
writing a book specifically forleaders and managers to say what
would be a neat little playbookthat you could pick up for any
situation that you're dealingwith that is science based, and
(41:28):
that gives you step by stepguidance on how to handle that.
So that's what I'm deep in rightnow and then. Alongside that,
I'm coaching my wonderfulclients and adoring, you know,
the work with them and livingmultiple lives by being able to
work with people in differentindustries. And I'm I'm going to
keep on doing that basically,until I am unable to speak.
Unknown (41:51):
Oh, that's great. And in the meantime, what are you
doing for fun? How are youkeeping yourself entertained and
refreshed when not working? Oh,there are lots of things I love
to do to decompress and get myfeet on the ground. I love
gardening, and I've come to thatsomewhat late in life, but I
love poking about in the dirt. Ilove singing, and a lot of the
(42:15):
time I'm singing with theCecilia chorus of New York, and
we're performing big concerts atCarnegie Hall right now, I'm on
hiatus because I'm trying tomake Thank you. I'm trying to
make big choices about creatingspace to work on the book, and
so that's one of the choices Ihave to make right now, but, but
I'll be back. As they say, Ilike making costumes. And yeah,
(42:37):
I mean, you know, I think it'sreally important to pay
attention to the things thatgive you joy and pleasure, and
make sure you've got enough ofthat going through the days, you
know, even at hard times, toknow where you're going to get a
boost, and to be deliberateabout putting that in your day.
Yeah? Really important. Yeah. Sotrue. So this has been super
helpful. Caroline, thank you forsharing this with us. This is
(42:59):
the point in every interviewwhere I like to help my audience
find action, find something thatthey can do today or this week,
right? Because you've shared somany wonderful things with us in
your story, but I want to helpsomeone actually do something
about it. So what I'm going todo is I'm going to summarize
(43:19):
just three. There were so manyin here, but just three of the
actions that stood out to methat anyone can can take, no
matter what their age or wherethey are in their career. And
then I'd like you to add onemore after that. Sound good? You
got it? Okay, so the first one,and this is, I admit, I'm a
little biased toward this, butboy, it's helpful. Learn a
(43:41):
little bit about economics. Justtake some time and read about
it. You can there are courses onLinkedIn, learning. You can look
up something on YouTube. Thereare some wonderful books if you
want to dive in deep. I actuallyhave one on my shelf, basic
economics. It's really good.
Understanding a little bit aboutthat helps you understand the
world around you, helps youunderstand some of the big
(44:02):
picture things that are takingplace, and also some of the
little decisions, the microeconomics that lead people to
make choices. Just learn alittle bit about it, and I think
it will educate some of thedecisions that you make in your
life and in your career. Thesecond one, I really liked this,
and we talked about it, and I'vetalked about the quote on my
wall. Run small experiments. Ihave a thing that reminds me to
(44:25):
test things out for a month. Soif I've got some new idea in my
business, I say, Okay, I'mgonna, I'm gonna go with this
for 30 days, and then I'm gonnastop and reassess and look at
what the data is telling me. Youdon't need to drop everything.
You do not need to quit your jobquite yet. Give it a try for a
month or two, reassess the data,and then decide if you're going
(44:47):
to make the next step. I lovethat that Caroline brought that
up, and then I'm going tohighlight that principle that
she said at the end from herbook, How to Have a good day.
Most people are.
Caroline Webb (45:00):
Trying to do their best. And think about
that. Think about the lastmoment. It may have happened
today or yesterday, wheresomeone did something that you
didn't like. Maybe it wasn'teven on a personal level, you
just saw someone do somethingsilly in public. And ask
yourself, I love Caroline. Yousaid, what are the stories? What
(45:20):
could be the story behind this?
And just try to do that a littlebit more. Assume that someone is
trying to do their best, andmaybe they were just having a
bad day, maybe something causedthem to do that. And I think if
you start to incorporate thatinto your life, you'll be more
compassionate, you'll be morepatient, and you're going to
feel a lot less stressed aboutthe things that other people do.
(45:42):
I love that Caroline. What's onethat you would add to that list?
One other that I could pick outfrom our conversation is the
importance of knowing what ittakes for you to get the best
out of yourself, and being openwith people about that. So in my
case, is being clear when I'm atmy best during the day, and that
that's not early morning, and tobe okay with talking to people
(46:02):
about that, and maybe for you,it's that, you know the early
morning is your precious time,and actually, you'd prefer not
to have other people claimingthe time for that reason. And I
think, you know, we are a littleshy sometimes of saying what it
is that we need in order to beat our best. I think maybe we're
getting better at it over theyears, but a lot of people I
(46:24):
meet still aren't super clearwhen their peak times are and
how to sell that time tothemselves and protect it, and
the conversations they need tohave with their colleagues and
family in order to do that. Oh,fantastic. Thank you for sharing
that with us, Caroline. So justa reminder to everyone, the book
that she wrote is how to have agood day. You can also look up
(46:46):
her courses on LinkedIn,learning that's web with 2b
Dave Crenshaw (46:52):
and Caroline, if someone wants to work with you
or they want to follow you,what's the best place for them
to go? My website iscarolineweb.co
Caroline Webb (47:02):
that.co's at the end. There are lots of Caroline
webs in the world. I have notgot.com
so come find me@carolineweb.co
Dave Crenshaw (47:10):
and send me a message there. I'll be delighted
to hear from you great.cobecause you mean business,
right. Ha, ha, ha, there you go.
Thank you so much for sharingthis with us, Caroline. Thank
you for being here, and thankyou everyone for listening.
Remember, it's not just aboutthe knowledge that you received
or the inspiration that youfelt, it's about the action that
you take. So do something todayor this week based on what
(47:32):
Caroline shared with you, andyou'll make her success story a
part of your success story.
Thanks for listening.
Unknown (47:41):
You've been listening to the Dave Crenshaw Success
Show, hosted by my dad, DaveCrenshaw, and produced by
invaluable incorporated researchand assistant production by
Victoria Bidez, Sound Editing byNikic Wright, voiceover by me,
Darci Crenshaw, and the music isby Ryan Brady via Pon five
(48:02):
licensing, please subscribe tothe Dave Crenshaw success show
on Apple podcasts Spotify,wherever you like to get your
podcasts. If you have asuggestion for someone my dad
might like to interview, pleasesend it to guests at Dave
crenshaw.comand please don't forget to leave
us a five star review. See younext time you.
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