June 12, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode, my guest is Jill Schulman, USMC veteran, leadership coach, and author of The Bravery Effect.
We dig into the surprising role that bravery plays in building high-performing cultures—not just in the military, but in dealerships, teams, and even our personal lives.
Jill shares the science behind why playing it safe actually leads to burnout, anxiety, and unhappiness, and how the most fulfilled, successful people have something in common: they’ve learned how to build bravery like a muscle.
We talk about:
- What holds people back from going after what they really want
- Why “positive vibes only” doesn’t actually lead to happiness
- How to teach your team to want accountability, not run from it
- What it takes to lead yourself before you try to lead others
- And how leaders can create an environment where performance and wellbeing grow together
You’ll also hear practical tools—backed by real research—that Jill uses with Fortune 500 companies to help people take bold action, stay mentally strong, and avoid what she calls the “comfort trap.”
If you’ve ever felt like you were capable of more but couldn’t get past the fear, or if you're in leadership and want to help your team do hard things without burning out, this episode’s going to give you some serious perspective.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
MC (00:00):
This episode is brought to you by FlexDealer.
Hey auto industry, welcome tothis episode of the Dealer
Playbook Podcast.
We're going to be talking allabout my favorite topic creating
(00:23):
a culture of high performanceby leveraging the science of
bravery with my guest, jillShulman.
Stay tuned.
Hey, Jill, welcome to theDealer Playbook.
Thank you for having me, I haveto point out.
Usmc veteran.
Thank you for your service.
Thank you I think it's sotremendous and I'm so infatuated
by, by the services.
(00:43):
I mean many that listen know,uh, my, my counterpart, my right
hand, emerson Abria, who's a 20year retired veteran and and
I've learned so much about the US Marine Corps through him, I
just want to be like just tell,just tell us everything you know
.
I'm just that that is a topicin and of itself.
(01:04):
I feel like we could have apodcast about, but I want to dig
into this.
You are, first of all, atremendous leader.
I can already tell just by theway you articulate the thoughts
you have around our subjectmatter today, which I'm going to
get to.
But I want to ask you, firstand foremost, how did you land
(01:25):
on bravery as the thing thatcreates a high performance
culture?
Jill (01:31):
Yeah, yeah, great question .
A couple of years ago I decidedto go back to school.
Talk about being brave.
I haven't been in college sinceI was 18 to 22, but I'm one of
those lifelong learners.
I love learning more and mybusiness is.
I have a leadership developmentbusiness, so it's always my job
to be learning.
(01:52):
And what's the latest inorganizational psychology?
Like what do I know that if myclients will do it will actually
move the needle on performance?
You know culture, all that.
So I stumbled on onto this, thesubject of the science of
happiness and well-being.
Did you even know that thatexisted?
Right, there's, there's ascientific study of elevating
(02:14):
happiness and well-being andit's called positive psychology.
And I was like, ooh, what isthis all about?
And the reason I got interestedin it is because there's this.
There's this gentleman, hisname is Sean Aker and he wrote a
book called the HappinessAdvantage.
I watched his TED Talk and thenI read his book and it was all
about how positive emotionsthat's the fuel for driving
results.
And I was like wait a secondhere.
(02:36):
So I got obsessed with, like,the psychology of happiness and
well-being and how it can impactbusiness results.
So when I started reading allthese books, I'm like I want to
study this and I decided toactually went back to school.
So University of Pennsylvaniahas the very first program.
It's like the best school inthe world on positive psychology
.
And I went back to school andwhen I was back and studying the
(02:57):
science of happiness andwellbeing, what I stumbled upon
is a little like morsel littleslice that became the most
interesting to me.
What I think is most needed inthe world is people need to
understand that they can buildtheir bravery muscle.
There's so many, there's somany misconceptions out there.
One of them if I can just talkabout is our world.
We're getting too damn soft.
MC (03:19):
Preach, let's go.
Yeah, we are.
Yes, I think it's just becausethere's so much convenience out
there.
Jill (03:27):
And then you said you have a son, right.
MC (03:30):
Two sons.
Jill (03:31):
And I have two daughters and I feel like I sometimes see
the world through their lens andeverything they're learning is
like, oh, have self-care daysand no stress, and if it's
challenging, like don't do it.
Like I feel like there's thisbill of goods being sent sold
out there Like the, the.
The secret to happiness is justhaving a comfortable, easy life
(03:52):
, and that's where we have tolook at the scientific study.
You guys, that is not the truth.
And I and as I was studyingpositive psychology and I see
the messages and I, I feel likethe direction we're going in the
world.
I, I feel like the directionwe're going in the world, like,
oh, like comfort equalshappiness.
That is bullshit.
I can't know if I don't have aconcern here, but it is.
(04:12):
It just.
It's just not the truth.
And and I could just come inand say, like you know, this is
what I think, cause I'm Jill andI'm a badass like United States
Marine, like no one reallycares about my opinion.
So what I like to bring islet's look at the evidence, the
scientific facts, of what reallycan bring you your best life.
And so I just dove into thatand what I found is like bravery
(04:34):
is really that key ingredient,that that we need to be able to
go after what we want.
So you know, in the scientificstudy of happiness and wellbeing
, um, there's five things thatwe know um can lead to higher
levels of happiness andwellbeing, and and one of them
is accomplishment.
So there's this, there's thisacronym, perma.
(04:55):
What is positive emotions?
P, so that is experiencing likejoy and happiness in the moment
.
But that's only one fifth ofhappiness.
Some people think that joy andhappiness in the moment is
that's all what happened.
No, it's only one fifth.
And then the E in PERMA isengagement getting into flow.
The R is relationships, thequality of our relationships.
M is meaning and A isaccomplishment.
(05:16):
And and I kind of dove intothat accomplishment, like a lot
of people want to what do wewant to accomplish?
They've got to be meaningful,they've got to be intrinsically
motivating.
But what holds people back fromreally accomplishing what they
want in life is fear.
So I, as I dug into it, I'mlike this is it?
People want to stay comfortable.
(05:36):
They, they have fear holdingthem back, and if what we really
want and happiness is on theother side of something, really
hard, it takes bravery to getthere.
So I just ended up doing a deepdive and gotten to know all the
researchers on bravery andreally like seeking to
understand it.
So that's what I'm on a missionto do is help people understand
that bravery isn't somethingyou're born with, you know.
(05:58):
It's something that you canbuild, like a muscle, like if
someone wants to be strong, youknow, and they and they have
wimpy arms and they're not fit,they don't just say, oh, I'm
just, I wasn't born this way.
They go no, you got to do thework.
So anyone can build the skillof bravery and when they do,
then it's amazing what it doesto that person in terms of, like
, their self-confidenceincreases.
(06:18):
You know, they have more of animpact in the world and then
that's why it leads to better,higher levels of happiness and
well-being is because it's that,that the increase in
self-confidence andself-efficacy, like you feel
like you're proud in the mirrorand you're like that is someone
I'm proud of because of whatI've accomplished and I have
stepped forward in the presenceof fear to go after what I want.
(06:39):
So it's a really good answer toa simple question.
MC (06:42):
I love, no, I love this.
And answer to a simple questionI love no, I, I love this.
Uh, and you'll notice, I lookdown, uh, the the audience knows
this about me I'm a ferociousnote taker, okay, um, and so, as
you're, as you're talking, Imean there's so many things that
are popping out to me.
Um, I think about my ownjourney and the, the, the things
that have led me to where I amtoday, going from a 20 something
(07:03):
year old, suicidally depressedfor a decade thought I wouldn't
measure to much and passingthrough a period of pain that I
look back now.
This is going to sound so weird.
I hope everyone takes this inthe right context.
I look back now with a certaindegree of fondness because of
(07:24):
what came as a result facingfear, as you're talking about,
facing the things that scaredthe absolute crap out of me, one
of which, probably the pinnacleof which is mediocrity.
I learned that I was afraid ofthe possibility of living living
a mediocre life, and then peelback the onion layers on that.
(07:47):
What does a mediocre mean to me?
What's my definition of that?
What's my definition ofhappiness and success and all
these things?
And you've said something ininterviews I want to touch on
because I think it feeds intothis.
And pre-show, I said you're theonly other person I've heard
say this and I wonder if it.
I can't help but wonder, jill,if it comes from this idea of
(08:10):
passing through pain and doingthe hard work which is you know.
I think I might've just saidthis to my oldest son a week ago
.
I'm like bro.
Jill (08:18):
I want to hear it.
I want to hear it.
MC (08:20):
Get comfortable being uncomfortable, because it's
going to be a wild ride if youdon't embrace it.
You need to wrap a warm hugaround the discomfort, because
that's where all the growthhappens, and I heard you say it
in an interview and I'm like, ohmy gosh, I need to learn more
about Jill's thought process onthat.
(08:40):
Talk to me about how do we getcomfortable being uncomfortable
and facing fear.
Jill (08:46):
Yeah, yeah, I love it, I love it.
In the Marine Corps, we, youknow, we say, instead of we
don't say get comfortable, beinguncomfortable, we call it
embrace the suck.
That's what we say in theMarine Corps.
We got this motto embrace thesuck.
But what we mean by that is,you know, when we get
uncomfortable, that's where thetrue growth comes, and then that
(09:07):
growth and getting through thehard times is what helps us
self-actualize, really inpsychology.
So, like any, anything that youreally want in life is on the
other side of something hard.
So a common thing that I dowhen I speak to audiences across
the world is I'll usually askpeople to reflect on what is
(09:29):
your most proud accomplishment,what is that one thing, and I
have people reflect and theywrite it down and I'm like, no,
tell me, take some notes on thejourney to achieve it.
And they take the notes on itright, and they share it with a
partner.
When we come back and we debriefit, like every single time,
people, the thing that they'remost proud of, like best moment
(09:51):
in life, was preceded with thisjourneys of ups and downs and
struggles, and the reason why itwas so great is because it
wasn't easy, Like if somethingwas just super easy, like you
try doing something and then twodays later you have it, you
wouldn't call it your, your bestthing in life.
You know, and you like you justhad that reflection Like you
look back and go, like Iactually look back at, I look
(10:12):
back on that experience withfondness because of look at who
you are as a person, because yougot through it.
So you know, whenever weencounter adversity or
challenges and we face it and weovercome it, that makes us
stronger and makes us more proud.
So, if we want to be moresuccessful, we want to be more
(10:32):
proud, if we want to live a lifewithout regret, we need to.
In those moments where you'refaced with, you know like, uh,
like two roads going in twodirections.
One is the road of comfort,like I don't want to deal with
it, I just want to take the easypath.
Or I'm going to face the fearand I'm going to go toward it.
Like every single time, if youturn left, you go down the
comfortable road, it's not goingto lead to the same life of
(10:55):
fulfillment as if you go downthe right and you you turn
toward the adversity.
That is is between you and whatyou really want, right.
MC (11:05):
And so yeah.
People.
Maybe one of the initial fearsis that they're too, too afraid
to admit what they actually want.
Well, there's a lot of comfortbecause they're like comfort
sounds safe.
Jill (11:24):
I'm too afraid to admit that.
MC (11:25):
I want, I don't know whatever.
Jill (11:28):
Yeah Well, and I just say, like my message isn't great for
everyone.
I'm like if you want a more, ifyou want a more how do I say
this in a way that does if youwant a bigger life where you're
having a bigger impact, if youwant more out of life, then I'm
your girl and I will give youall the strategies on how to get
(11:49):
that and everything is veryevidence-based.
So I be confident.
But if there's people that sayI just want to coast and I'm
happy with it, I'll say you, doyou like?
I got people.
People have to want it Right.
But then the people that saythat they want the comfortable
life, they'll come back to me in10 years and go all right, what
you got, because I'm really,I'm actually.
So when you, when you choosethe comfortable path, that
(12:11):
actually leads to usuallydepression, anxiety, right, it's
what I call the comfort trap.
In fact I talk about it in mybook, like so, like when you
have that decision like, hmm,all right, so do I really want
to face the fear and do the hardthing, or do I want to just
choose the little safety nest ofcomfort?
Each time you choose comfortright In the moment, it feels
(12:32):
good, but then that makes youweaker and the next time there's
a challenge, you're more apt.
So this is a compounding impact.
If you keep choosing safe,comfortable, you literally
become weaker and weaker overtime.
Sometimes I'm using the analogyof trees.
This is a fascinating thingabout trees, like, if you, um,
there's actually a biosphere inum, in Arizona, where they
(12:58):
created this biosphere and they,they grew all this vegetation
and they're doing research for,like, if they could ever grow
things like you know, maybe likeon the moon or something like
that.
But they had this big biosphere, this big scientific experiment
, and these trees, specificallythese palm trees they just shot
up super, super fast.
Um, and they thought this isamazing, these trees have never
grown this fast.
(13:18):
This is great.
And they had to actually movethe trees out of the biosphere
because they were getting toohigh and they brought them to
some different resorts.
Well, I promise I'm goingsomewhere that's going to relate
.
I promise you, I'm with you.
But they found that these treesthat they thought were so
healthy and so vibrant and justsuch great trees, when they
moved them to their eventualdestination and put them in this
(13:38):
resort, this, this resort, um,the first time there was any
winds that exceeded 30 miles anhour, they fell over, they
snapped.
And this is the same thing weare as humans is, you know, when
we avoid any type of stress orchallenges, it makes us weaker
(13:59):
and we don't want to be weak.
So in a tree, like every timethat a tree, as it's growing it,
encounters stress, it actuallycreates the stronger called
stress wood.
It's the way the trunk is built.
It just becomes so muchstronger and able to withstand
In order for us to be able tolive our best life.
Like we don't want to be weak,because what if some something
(14:21):
happens to us?
Right, and we need to beresilient.
If we're not going afterdiscomfort on a regular basis,
then when life does give us acurve ball, we're going to be
less apt to deal with it.
So when people ask me aboutresilience and they want me to
speak on resilience, I'm I'mlike, all right, like the key to
resilience is not being readyfor adversity.
I want you so, whenuncomfortable things come your
(14:44):
way, you're ready for it.
No, you've got to, you've gotto.
I want you to pursue discomfortlike weekend and week out, and
then you get comfortable beinguncomfortable and you're going
to be that much more apt torespond to any challenges that
come your way.
I don't even remember youroriginal question.
MC (15:01):
I went off on a tangent no, this is perfect, um, where I'm
okay.
So I wrote down biosphere, Iwrote down trees, I wrote down
stress wood and then my mind,immediately, as you concluded,
went to, and the thing of it is,the tree doesn't know when the
(15:22):
wind will blow, but that it willat some point blow, and I think
it's.
It's so interesting when youfactor in human nature, because
we're like I want good times allthe time and and I know bad
things will happen, but let'spretend they never will, and
then and then we're faced withthem.
You know, I look at the autoindustry, which is who we
(15:43):
primarily speak to.
I mean, worldwide pandemicshuts everything down, everyone
gets furloughed, they can't sellcars, supply chain issues.
You know all of these unknowns,basically the worst thing that
could happen to your business,barring an asteroid, you know,
collision with earth.
And I can't help but wish thatwe were more prepared and, and
(16:12):
to your point, shying away fromthe hard things, choosing the
going down the path of comfort,is not how you prepare for hard
times and challenges, thing Ithink I could have ever faced.
I feel like, gave me, um, atolerance against what most,
(16:40):
what?
What causes most people to shutdown.
You know, um, I did missionwork in the philippines for a
few years and in my early 20s,and and that experience and just
seeing how people, all of thesethings that bring you outside
of your comfort zone, I wouldsay cause you to go.
This isn't an issue.
I can breathe, my arms andfingers move, my brain works.
(17:04):
I can make it out of this.
I can do something about this.
Hey, does your marketing agencysuck?
Listen, before we hop back intothis episode, I know you know
me as the host of the dealerPlaybook, but did you also know
that I'm the CEO of FlexDealer,an agency that's helping dealers
capture better quality leadsfrom local SEO and
(17:25):
hyper-targeted ads that convert?
So if you want to sell morecars and finally have a partner
that's in it with you, thatdoesn't suck.
Visit FlexDealercom.
Let's hop back into thisepisode.
Visit flexdealercom let's hopback into this episode.
Jill (17:38):
I'm okay, like it was scary, but I took a step forward
and I'm doing it, or I canhandle the things that come our
way.
Yeah, exactly, well, I can.
I can share a little like thepractical strategies, because
we're you know, we're you know,we're talking kind of more
theoretically on what peopleshould do.
But I think the other thingthat I'm trying to do to serve
my audiences that I speak to andis teach them that, instead of
(18:00):
just saying like look at me, I'mreally brave.
Oh, like beat my chest and sayI hope I inspire you to go out
there and be brave.
A lot of speakers in my worldthat's what they do is they just
tell stories about how bravethey are and then they just
leave and they're like I hopethat inspired you, right, but
really that doesn't help peoplebe braver.
We need to give them likeevidence-based tools on how to
develop that bravery muscle.
(18:21):
So I teach is we do a lot ofwork on cognitive mindset.
That's my psychology background.
Like we need to change ourbelief systems.
We need to believe that we cando hard things and that stress
and challenges are good thingsthat make us stronger.
So there's a lot of literatureon growth mindset.
Carol from Stanford is famouswith that.
A lot of people know that if youhave kids because they talk a
(18:42):
lot about growth mindset forkids, but it applies to us as
well.
And growth mindset is theopposite of fixed mindset.
People just think fixed mindsetis like oh well, I'm just not
good at that, I could never dothat.
Growth mindset is with hardwork and effort I can become
skilled in that.
It's not going to be easy, butit's my effort that I put into
(19:03):
something that will lead to myability to be able to develop a
skill versus I'm good at it ornot.
So that fixed versus growthmindset, and then also just
realizing that the stress andchallenges that you'll encounter
on the journey to growing anddeveloping isn't a bad thing.
It's a good thing.
So if you think that stress isbad for you, then when you
experience stress you're goingto freak out and it's going to
(19:25):
not.
You're not going to be great athandling stress.
There's this research by umAllie Crum and Kelly McGonigal
these um, amazing researchersand they've actually found
people's mindset to stress ispredictive of their reaction to
stress.
So can I just give a littlesecret here?
MC (19:46):
Yeah.
Jill (19:47):
Stress is not going to go away, adversity is not going to
go away.
So just by telling people like,oh, stress is bad, eliminate
all stress in life, like that isthe wrong message, like I get
so frustrated.
Like we need to make peoplebetter at handling stress
because there's always going tobe stress in our lives.
You know, basically theirresearch said that if you
(20:08):
believe stress is bad, then whensomething stressful happens,
you're going to have apsychological response that is
unhealthy and it usually you'llbe stuck and then also you
actually have a physiologicalresponse that's not good.
Your blood pressure goes up.
And then if people areresponding bad to stress and
they're stressed for 20, 30years, no wonder they have
premature heart attacks.
But if you think that stress is, this is my body like preparing
(20:32):
me to perform at my best.
And when I feel these emotionsof like shakiness and maybe I'll
call it anxiety, I'm gonnastart reframing it as like I'm
excited and my body's getting meready to perform at my best,
right, like stress makes mestronger.
The difference in your beliefis an absolute game changer.
So we actually teach peoplelike how to develop a growth
(20:53):
mindset stress is enhancingmindset and then how to master,
sometimes the dialogue in ourheads and I wanted to get into
that, because that that's awhole podcast in itself is how
to change.
You know, um, you know the, theself-talk that we have in our
head.
So that's so we got to firstbelieve that we can do hard
things and that the stress andchallenges on the journey are
(21:13):
going to make us stronger andmake us better, and it's a good
thing.
And then we talk about braveactions.
So you ever run into someone inyour life that talks about I
want to do this, here's a goal,I'm going to do this.
I've got vision boards and allthis I'm going to manifest, but
then they don't take a stepforward to actually achieving it
(21:34):
.
So we have to start withmindset, but we need to teach
people how to actually takesteps forward.
So it's what I call braveaction, but it's a lot of the
science of habit teaching peopleto not to attack their day and
do the hardest thing first.
So a lot of things on how youschedule your time and effort
and how do you prime yourselffrom a psychological point of
(21:55):
view to actually take thataction each day, and then what
that does to you to get thatmomentum, and that reinforces
the mindset.
And then the last thing is whatI call brave relationships.
Surround yourself with thepeople you know, um, that will
encourage you to do the hardthing, not don't surround
yourself with other people thatsit on the couch.
Sit on the couch binge watchingNetflix all day and scrolling
(22:20):
through their phones and they'renot trying to push themselves.
So curate that group of peoplethat are going to support your
desire to accomplish hard thingsand, hopefully, people that
have done it themselves, thatthey have wisdom and experience
that you can benefit from.
And when you're going throughthe ups and downs of that
journey, they're going to be theone there to support you and
(22:42):
say you can do it, keep movingforward, versus other people say
this is so hard, why are youdoing that?
Be easy on yourself, just quit.
So that's kind of practicalstrategies.
Those three like we got to workon mindset, we got to work on
our actions.
MC (22:52):
We got to we got to work on our actions.
We got to.
We got to work on who we'resurrounding ourselves with and
if you do those three things,you will be unstoppable.
You know it's like guys, andI'm breaking the fourth wall
here now because I'veinterviewed 680 experts from in
(23:14):
and out of the car business.
From in and out of the carbusiness, the Jill Shulmans of
the world, the Jill Conraths,the Grant Cardones and Gary Vees
, and you name it.
They've been on this show andthere are principles that the
elite high performers have incommon and I'm hoping that
you've picked up on these overthe last 680 episodes.
(23:37):
When you say, surround yourselfwith the right people, you'd
have to be living under a rockat this point to not agree with
that statement.
Brave action.
I love the way that you framethat.
It's so powerful and mindset.
This leads to the last thingthat I want to just pick your
(23:59):
brain on it's correlation intoan organization.
You say so.
This is the second thing.
I heard you say that I was likeman Jill, come on, how, see?
See, because I think and I'msure you see this in the
organizations that you consultand advise and the groups you
(24:23):
speak to, everyone wants theshiny title so they can flex.
They want that.
I'm a manager, I'm a head ofsomething, I'm a director, I'm a
whatever.
And I sit here and my sentimentis how can you ever lead a group
(24:44):
of people at work if you don'tknow how to lead people at home
first, like, if you're not aleader at home, who cares if
you've got a leadership title?
And also if you don't havebasic disciplines to lead
yourself?
And I've heard you say, like,how can?
My philosophy and maybe I'mwrong, but my mindset is
(25:08):
leadership is not how well I canlogistically deploy or execute
a program.
Leadership to me is here arethe behaviors, the mindsets, the
attitudes that I desire you todemonstrate for you, that you
can learn from me so that all ofour lives are better together.
(25:31):
Like don't do what I say,actually do what I do.
I need to live my life in a waythat that is worth them, worth
following.
You know, um, tell me moreabout this, cause I know you,
you've said it and I think itties into all of these things
and we perpetually struggle withit in organizations because we
think the minute we get thatleadership title, that makes us
a leader.
Jill (25:53):
Oh my gosh.
Yes, you hit on a hot buttonfor me.
I love this, love it.
So I just want to agree withwhat you said.
Like, if you want to be a greatleader, a people leader at work
, you first have to learn how tolead yourself.
So that's why, like I, like,I'm, I'm, I do.
I've been doing leadershipdevelopment for 15 years and you
(26:13):
know fortune 500 companies, soI spent a lot of time on like,
how do I lead others?
But I always go back to likefirst it's how you lead yourself
.
That's really important.
You got to first lead yourself.
I love how you talked aboutleading your family in order to
be able to perform at work.
But here's the challenge.
I want to give a little bit ofgrace to the new leaders out
there, because sometimes it'snot their fault.
(26:33):
So what normally happens inorganizations is you are the top
performer, you are the best atdoing the thing In a dealership
out there, you're best atselling cars or doing service,
or you, you're best at the job,and so the organization says you
are the very best at doing whatyou're doing.
So we're going to promote youto a leadership position, and no
(26:54):
one really teaches people howto do the job of leading people.
And the job of leading humanbeings is totally different than
the job of doing the job itselfof driving results.
And so a lot of the trainingthat we do at companies, it's
like, oh, let's, let's teach youhow to better sell and how to
better do customer service andall of that.
But are we teaching people howto lead?
(27:15):
And that's the job of a leader.
Your job as a leader is how doyou help your people become the
best versions of themselves?
How do they develop the mindset?
How do they take the rightactions?
You know, how are theydeveloping, you know,
relationships at work where theycan learn and grow from one
another.
So, you know, I think that'skind of one of the things we've
(27:36):
got to take some ownership for.
Is the leadership team, or thehigh level, like the owners of,
you know, the businesses is likewe've got to set our people up
for success, like we've got toteach them how to lead and and
so many like you know so manyleaders and I love teaching new
leaders.
It's like my favorite becausethey're like, they're like
little sponges, but you knowwhen I, when I tell them, like
you know, your job is to serve.
(27:56):
They're like what, what, what,what to serve.
Like I'm the leader, all of youpeon.
You're going to serve me and I'mlike okay, so this is where we
go to mindset Like your job islike check your ego at the door
Right and your job every daywhen you go to work is you.
You know, first of all, youneed to have the strategy and
(28:16):
the goals.
That has to come from the topdown strategy, culture, values,
goals, responsibilities.
That's got to flow down.
But once that's done, when yougo to work each day, ask
yourself the question how can Ibest serve my team so that they
can be the most successful, sothey can succeed and win?
How do I help them create morebelief that they can achieve
(28:36):
things?
How do I help people train themon the skills that are going to
make them successful?
And sometimes we don't teachleaders how to do that.
So so I've I've got a littlebit of grace, because if they
haven't been taught how to lead,but the job is so different,
yeah, you know, we're leadinghuman beings that are complex
beings that have skills and willand emotions, and you got to
(29:00):
know how to do all that stuff tomotivate, inspire and support
your team success.
And yeah, so that's definitelya hot button.
Yeah, I completely agree witheverything you said.
MC (29:09):
I want to end on this because I think it ties into it.
You've mentioned theenvironment and I think this
kind of ties into it and howleaders are responsible for it.
I don't know if you're familiarwith Chris Bosch.
She's a happiness and like workculture professional.
I had her on the show oh gosh,I don't know five or six years
(29:34):
ago, and something she said.
What you're talking about hereand your subject matter reminds
me of something she said, whichis that it is not the leader's
responsibility to make employeeshappy.
It is their responsibility tocreate an environment in which
happiness can exist.
Jill (29:55):
Yeah.
MC (29:56):
What are your thoughts?
What's your take?
Jill (29:57):
Okay, I love that we're going to try to bring happiness
in the workplace, but I justwant to add a little bit of
layer, a little layer to this,bringing in some evidence.
So if you have a bunch of happylosers at work that are not
getting the job done, you arefailing as a leader.
So sometimes over emphasis onlike.
I just want everyone to come inand be happy and we're going to
(30:17):
like shoot the shit and we'regoing to like we're going to be
talking about you know, um, sothat is not the goal.
How do you create a culturewith both high standards of
performance, high accountability, and that environment of
(30:39):
psychological safety andpositive emotions and happiness?
So when you do these two thingstogether and I'm citing really
something that Amy Edmondsonfrom Harvard, she teaches in her
book about psychological safety, the fearless organization but
she says, like, if you, if youreally focus on psychological
safety, happiness in theworkplace, without the high
(30:59):
standards and accountability,you end up getting what I call
happy losers.
I can't remember what she calls, it apathetic or whatever.
But that's not good for theemployee because they're not
gonna learn and grow, it's notgood for our customers, it's not
good for the business.
But if you look at the oppositeof the scale, if you have a
culture of high standards, highaccountability, but you don't
(31:19):
have people with psychologicalsafety and they enjoy work,
happiness at work, then you justhave an environment, a culture
of, of, of stress and anxiety,and that's also what you don't
want.
But if you can put the twothings together and this is what
leaders need to realize, likesometimes leaders think that I
have to make a choice.
(31:39):
I've got to make a choice.
Am I going to be a jerk andhold people accountable and no
one's going to like me, or do Iget to be nice and not hold
people to standards?
And you don't have to make thatchoice and it's not that
conundrum.
You can have the two of themtogether.
Care enough about your peoplethat believe in their potential
that they can achieve the highstandard, and you care enough
(32:00):
about them and you believeenough in them that you will
hold them accountable and helpthem get there.
So you want to have thathappiness and psychological
safety along with a highstandard.
So you have a culture of highperformance where everyone is
striving to achieve or exceedthe high standards that we have.
So people go to work and saylike I work in a place that I
(32:21):
have pride, I bring value andnot just the boss holds me
accountable.
We all care about the highstandards and then we're going
to hold one another accountable.
So I would just add that layer,like sometimes in in my world
of positive psychology.
People I think spend too muchtime just talking about positive
emotion and I'm like rememberit's one fifth of happiness and
well-being.
(32:41):
So I do care about smilingemployees coming in, but we
can't only focus on that.
It's got to be in service tothe mission, the goals you know
and the strategy that we have.
MC (32:53):
I love this.
I love this conversation.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
Jill (33:01):
How can those listening and watching connect with you?
You can follow me on any socialmedia LinkedIn, instagram,
facebook, twitter, like allthose things, um, and what I try
to do there is I try to givelike little daily messages,
because a lot of times we need alittle daily message to remind
us to do hard things and to bebrave.
So I try to give like littlemessages to like everyone.
So follow me there, um, or justmy website is jillschulmancom
(33:29):
Um.
My last name is spelled S C H,u, l, m A, so Jill shulmancom Um
, and then my book is you canfind my book anywhere.
Anywhere books are sold.
You can find the bravery effectUm, there's no other book named
that.
So if you just type in thebravery effect, you'll find my
book, um, and the book iswritten as a parable.
So I tried to make it like, notlike the.
The books I like to read arelike the heavy science with all
the theory and like all thestudies, and most people don't
like to read that shit.
(33:49):
They just want to hear like,tell me that.
So I wrapped all of the scienceof bravery into an easy to read
, entertaining story that youcan read in about two hours but
you'll learn all the tips.
So that's where you can find mybook.
MC (34:04):
Well, this has been a joy and a delight.
Thanks so much for joining meon the dealer playbook podcast.
And hey, if you made it thisfar in the episode, which, in
fact, is the end, well, guesswhat?
We're going to get you somefree copies of Jill's book.
The bravery effect.
You're going to have to checkout the show notes over at the
dealer playbookcom where you cansee how to get a free copy of
(34:25):
Jill's book.
Jill, thanks so much forjoining me on the dealer
playbook podcast.
Jill (34:29):
Thanks for having me, that was fun.
MC (34:31):
Hey, thanks for listening to the dealer playbook podcast.
If you enjoyed tuning in,please subscribe, share and hit
that like button.
You can also join us and theDPB community on social media.
Check back next week for a newdealer playbook episode.
Thanks so much for joining.
This episode is brought to you by FlexDealer.
Hey auto industry, welcome tothis episode of the Dealer
Playbook Podcast.
We're going to be talking allabout my favorite topic creating
(00:23):
a culture of high performanceby leveraging the science of
bravery with my guest, jillShulman.
Stay tuned.
Hey, Jill, welcome to theDealer Playbook.
Thank you for having me, I haveto point out.
Usmc veteran.
Thank you for your service.
Thank you I think it's sotremendous and I'm so infatuated
by, by the services.
(00:43):
I mean many that listen know,uh, my, my counterpart, my right
hand, emerson Abria, who's a 20year retired veteran and and
I've learned so much about the US Marine Corps through him, I
just want to be like just tell,just tell us everything you know
.
I'm just that that is a topicin and of itself.
(01:04):
I feel like we could have apodcast about, but I want to dig
into this.
You are, first of all, atremendous leader.
I can already tell just by theway you articulate the thoughts
you have around our subjectmatter today, which I'm going to
get to.
But I want to ask you, firstand foremost, how did you land
(01:25):
on bravery as the thing thatcreates a high performance
culture?
Jill (01:31):
Yeah, yeah, great question .
A couple of years ago I decidedto go back to school.
Talk about being brave.
I haven't been in college sinceI was 18 to 22, but I'm one of
those lifelong learners.
I love learning more and mybusiness is.
I have a leadership developmentbusiness, so it's always my job
to be learning.
(01:52):
And what's the latest inorganizational psychology?
Like what do I know that if myclients will do it will actually
move the needle on performance?
You know culture, all that.
So I stumbled on onto this, thesubject of the science of
happiness and well-being.
Did you even know that thatexisted?
Right, there's, there's ascientific study of elevating
(02:14):
happiness and well-being andit's called positive psychology.
And I was like, ooh, what isthis all about?
And the reason I got interestedin it is because there's this.
There's this gentleman, hisname is Sean Aker and he wrote a
book called the HappinessAdvantage.
I watched his TED Talk and thenI read his book and it was all
about how positive emotionsthat's the fuel for driving
results.
And I was like wait a secondhere.
(02:36):
So I got obsessed with, like,the psychology of happiness and
well-being and how it can impactbusiness results.
So when I started reading allthese books, I'm like I want to
study this and I decided toactually went back to school.
So University of Pennsylvaniahas the very first program.
It's like the best school inthe world on positive psychology
.
And I went back to school andwhen I was back and studying the
(02:57):
science of happiness andwellbeing, what I stumbled upon
is a little like morsel littleslice that became the most
interesting to me.
What I think is most needed inthe world is people need to
understand that they can buildtheir bravery muscle.
There's so many, there's somany misconceptions out there.
One of them if I can just talkabout is our world.
We're getting too damn soft.
MC (03:19):
Preach, let's go.
Yeah, we are.
Yes, I think it's just becausethere's so much convenience out
there.
Jill (03:27):
And then you said you have a son, right.
MC (03:30):
Two sons.
Jill (03:31):
And I have two daughters and I feel like I sometimes see
the world through their lens andeverything they're learning is
like, oh, have self-care daysand no stress, and if it's
challenging, like don't do it.
Like I feel like there's thisbill of goods being sent sold
out there Like the, the.
The secret to happiness is justhaving a comfortable, easy life
(03:52):
, and that's where we have tolook at the scientific study.
You guys, that is not the truth.
And I and as I was studyingpositive psychology and I see
the messages and I, I feel likethe direction we're going in the
world.
I, I feel like the directionwe're going in the world, like,
oh, like comfort equalshappiness.
That is bullshit.
I can't know if I don't have aconcern here, but it is.
(04:12):
It just.
It's just not the truth.
And and I could just come inand say, like you know, this is
what I think, cause I'm Jill andI'm a badass like United States
Marine, like no one reallycares about my opinion.
So what I like to bring islet's look at the evidence, the
scientific facts, of what reallycan bring you your best life.
And so I just dove into thatand what I found is like bravery
(04:34):
is really that key ingredient,that that we need to be able to
go after what we want.
So you know, in the scientificstudy of happiness and wellbeing
, um, there's five things thatwe know um can lead to higher
levels of happiness andwellbeing, and and one of them
is accomplishment.
So there's this, there's thisacronym, perma.
(04:55):
What is positive emotions?
P, so that is experiencing likejoy and happiness in the moment
.
But that's only one fifth ofhappiness.
Some people think that joy andhappiness in the moment is
that's all what happened.
No, it's only one fifth.
And then the E in PERMA isengagement getting into flow.
The R is relationships, thequality of our relationships.
M is meaning and A isaccomplishment.
(05:16):
And and I kind of dove intothat accomplishment, like a lot
of people want to what do wewant to accomplish?
They've got to be meaningful,they've got to be intrinsically
motivating.
But what holds people back fromreally accomplishing what they
want in life is fear.
So I, as I dug into it, I'mlike this is it?
People want to stay comfortable.
(05:36):
They, they have fear holdingthem back, and if what we really
want and happiness is on theother side of something, really
hard, it takes bravery to getthere.
So I just ended up doing a deepdive and gotten to know all the
researchers on bravery andreally like seeking to
understand it.
So that's what I'm on a missionto do is help people understand
that bravery isn't somethingyou're born with, you know.
(05:58):
It's something that you canbuild, like a muscle, like if
someone wants to be strong, youknow, and they and they have
wimpy arms and they're not fit,they don't just say, oh, I'm
just, I wasn't born this way.
They go no, you got to do thework.
So anyone can build the skillof bravery and when they do,
then it's amazing what it doesto that person in terms of, like
, their self-confidenceincreases.
(06:18):
You know, they have more of animpact in the world and then
that's why it leads to better,higher levels of happiness and
well-being is because it's that,that the increase in
self-confidence andself-efficacy, like you feel
like you're proud in the mirrorand you're like that is someone
I'm proud of because of whatI've accomplished and I have
stepped forward in the presenceof fear to go after what I want.
(06:39):
So it's a really good answer toa simple question.
MC (06:42):
I love, no, I love this.
And answer to a simple questionI love no, I, I love this.
Uh, and you'll notice, I lookdown, uh, the the audience knows
this about me I'm a ferociousnote taker, okay, um, and so, as
you're, as you're talking, Imean there's so many things that
are popping out to me.
Um, I think about my ownjourney and the, the, the things
that have led me to where I amtoday, going from a 20 something
(07:03):
year old, suicidally depressedfor a decade thought I wouldn't
measure to much and passingthrough a period of pain that I
look back now.
This is going to sound so weird.
I hope everyone takes this inthe right context.
I look back now with a certaindegree of fondness because of
(07:24):
what came as a result facingfear, as you're talking about,
facing the things that scaredthe absolute crap out of me, one
of which, probably the pinnacleof which is mediocrity.
I learned that I was afraid ofthe possibility of living living
a mediocre life, and then peelback the onion layers on that.
(07:47):
What does a mediocre mean to me?
What's my definition of that?
What's my definition ofhappiness and success and all
these things?
And you've said something ininterviews I want to touch on
because I think it feeds intothis.
And pre-show, I said you're theonly other person I've heard
say this and I wonder if it.
I can't help but wonder, jill,if it comes from this idea of
(08:10):
passing through pain and doingthe hard work which is you know.
I think I might've just saidthis to my oldest son a week ago
.
I'm like bro.
Jill (08:18):
I want to hear it.
I want to hear it.
MC (08:20):
Get comfortable being uncomfortable, because it's
going to be a wild ride if youdon't embrace it.
You need to wrap a warm hugaround the discomfort, because
that's where all the growthhappens, and I heard you say it
in an interview and I'm like, ohmy gosh, I need to learn more
about Jill's thought process onthat.
(08:40):
Talk to me about how do we getcomfortable being uncomfortable
and facing fear.
Jill (08:46):
Yeah, yeah, I love it, I love it.
In the Marine Corps, we, youknow, we say, instead of we
don't say get comfortable, beinguncomfortable, we call it
embrace the suck.
That's what we say in theMarine Corps.
We got this motto embrace thesuck.
But what we mean by that is,you know, when we get
uncomfortable, that's where thetrue growth comes, and then that
(09:07):
growth and getting through thehard times is what helps us
self-actualize, really inpsychology.
So, like any, anything that youreally want in life is on the
other side of something hard.
So a common thing that I dowhen I speak to audiences across
the world is I'll usually askpeople to reflect on what is
(09:29):
your most proud accomplishment,what is that one thing, and I
have people reflect and theywrite it down and I'm like, no,
tell me, take some notes on thejourney to achieve it.
And they take the notes on itright, and they share it with a
partner.
When we come back and we debriefit, like every single time,
people, the thing that they'remost proud of, like best moment
(09:51):
in life, was preceded with thisjourneys of ups and downs and
struggles, and the reason why itwas so great is because it
wasn't easy, Like if somethingwas just super easy, like you
try doing something and then twodays later you have it, you
wouldn't call it your, your bestthing in life.
You know, and you like you justhad that reflection Like you
look back and go, like Iactually look back at, I look
(10:12):
back on that experience withfondness because of look at who
you are as a person, because yougot through it.
So you know, whenever weencounter adversity or
challenges and we face it and weovercome it, that makes us
stronger and makes us more proud.
So, if we want to be moresuccessful, we want to be more
(10:32):
proud, if we want to live a lifewithout regret, we need to.
In those moments where you'refaced with, you know like, uh,
like two roads going in twodirections.
One is the road of comfort,like I don't want to deal with
it, I just want to take the easypath.
Or I'm going to face the fearand I'm going to go toward it.
Like every single time, if youturn left, you go down the
comfortable road, it's not goingto lead to the same life of
(10:55):
fulfillment as if you go downthe right and you you turn
toward the adversity.
That is is between you and whatyou really want, right.
MC (11:05):
And so yeah.
People.
Maybe one of the initial fearsis that they're too, too afraid
to admit what they actually want.
Well, there's a lot of comfortbecause they're like comfort
sounds safe.
Jill (11:24):
I'm too afraid to admit that.
MC (11:25):
I want, I don't know whatever.
Jill (11:28):
Yeah Well, and I just say, like my message isn't great for
everyone.
I'm like if you want a more, ifyou want a more how do I say
this in a way that does if youwant a bigger life where you're
having a bigger impact, if youwant more out of life, then I'm
your girl and I will give youall the strategies on how to get
(11:49):
that and everything is veryevidence-based.
So I be confident.
But if there's people that sayI just want to coast and I'm
happy with it, I'll say you, doyou like?
I got people.
People have to want it Right.
But then the people that saythat they want the comfortable
life, they'll come back to me in10 years and go all right, what
you got, because I'm really,I'm actually.
So when you, when you choosethe comfortable path, that
(12:11):
actually leads to usuallydepression, anxiety, right, it's
what I call the comfort trap.
In fact I talk about it in mybook, like so, like when you
have that decision like, hmm,all right, so do I really want
to face the fear and do the hardthing, or do I want to just
choose the little safety nest ofcomfort?
Each time you choose comfortright In the moment, it feels
(12:32):
good, but then that makes youweaker and the next time there's
a challenge, you're more apt.
So this is a compounding impact.
If you keep choosing safe,comfortable, you literally
become weaker and weaker overtime.
Sometimes I'm using the analogyof trees.
This is a fascinating thingabout trees, like, if you, um,
there's actually a biosphere inum, in Arizona, where they
(12:58):
created this biosphere and they,they grew all this vegetation
and they're doing research for,like, if they could ever grow
things like you know, maybe likeon the moon or something like
that.
But they had this big biosphere, this big scientific experiment
, and these trees, specificallythese palm trees they just shot
up super, super fast.
Um, and they thought this isamazing, these trees have never
grown this fast.
(13:18):
This is great.
And they had to actually movethe trees out of the biosphere
because they were getting toohigh and they brought them to
some different resorts.
Well, I promise I'm goingsomewhere that's going to relate
.
I promise you, I'm with you.
But they found that these treesthat they thought were so
healthy and so vibrant and justsuch great trees, when they
moved them to their eventualdestination and put them in this
(13:38):
resort, this, this resort, um,the first time there was any
winds that exceeded 30 miles anhour, they fell over, they
snapped.
And this is the same thing weare as humans is, you know, when
we avoid any type of stress orchallenges, it makes us weaker
(13:59):
and we don't want to be weak.
So in a tree, like every timethat a tree, as it's growing it,
encounters stress, it actuallycreates the stronger called
stress wood.
It's the way the trunk is built.
It just becomes so muchstronger and able to withstand
In order for us to be able tolive our best life.
Like we don't want to be weak,because what if some something
(14:21):
happens to us?
Right, and we need to beresilient.
If we're not going afterdiscomfort on a regular basis,
then when life does give us acurve ball, we're going to be
less apt to deal with it.
So when people ask me aboutresilience and they want me to
speak on resilience, I'm I'mlike, all right, like the key to
resilience is not being readyfor adversity.
I want you so, whenuncomfortable things come your
(14:44):
way, you're ready for it.
No, you've got to, you've gotto.
I want you to pursue discomfortlike weekend and week out, and
then you get comfortable beinguncomfortable and you're going
to be that much more apt torespond to any challenges that
come your way.
I don't even remember youroriginal question.
MC (15:01):
I went off on a tangent no, this is perfect, um, where I'm
okay.
So I wrote down biosphere, Iwrote down trees, I wrote down
stress wood and then my mind,immediately, as you concluded,
went to, and the thing of it is,the tree doesn't know when the
(15:22):
wind will blow, but that it willat some point blow, and I think
it's.
It's so interesting when youfactor in human nature, because
we're like I want good times allthe time and and I know bad
things will happen, but let'spretend they never will, and
then and then we're faced withthem.
You know, I look at the autoindustry, which is who we
(15:43):
primarily speak to.
I mean, worldwide pandemicshuts everything down, everyone
gets furloughed, they can't sellcars, supply chain issues.
You know all of these unknowns,basically the worst thing that
could happen to your business,barring an asteroid, you know,
collision with earth.
And I can't help but wish thatwe were more prepared and, and
(16:12):
to your point, shying away fromthe hard things, choosing the
going down the path of comfort,is not how you prepare for hard
times and challenges, thing Ithink I could have ever faced.
I feel like, gave me, um, atolerance against what most,
(16:40):
what?
What causes most people to shutdown.
You know, um, I did missionwork in the philippines for a
few years and in my early 20s,and and that experience and just
seeing how people, all of thesethings that bring you outside
of your comfort zone, I wouldsay cause you to go.
This isn't an issue.
I can breathe, my arms andfingers move, my brain works.
(17:04):
I can make it out of this.
I can do something about this.
Hey, does your marketing agencysuck?
Listen, before we hop back intothis episode, I know you know
me as the host of the dealerPlaybook, but did you also know
that I'm the CEO of FlexDealer,an agency that's helping dealers
capture better quality leadsfrom local SEO and
(17:25):
hyper-targeted ads that convert?
So if you want to sell morecars and finally have a partner
that's in it with you, thatdoesn't suck.
Visit FlexDealercom.
Let's hop back into thisepisode.
Visit flexdealercom let's hopback into this episode.
Jill (17:38):
I'm okay, like it was scary, but I took a step forward
and I'm doing it, or I canhandle the things that come our
way.
Yeah, exactly, well, I can.
I can share a little like thepractical strategies, because
we're you know, we're you know,we're talking kind of more
theoretically on what peopleshould do.
But I think the other thingthat I'm trying to do to serve
my audiences that I speak to andis teach them that, instead of
(18:00):
just saying like look at me, I'mreally brave.
Oh, like beat my chest and sayI hope I inspire you to go out
there and be brave.
A lot of speakers in my worldthat's what they do is they just
tell stories about how bravethey are and then they just
leave and they're like I hopethat inspired you, right, but
really that doesn't help peoplebe braver.
We need to give them likeevidence-based tools on how to
develop that bravery muscle.
(18:21):
So I teach is we do a lot ofwork on cognitive mindset.
That's my psychology background.
Like we need to change ourbelief systems.
We need to believe that we cando hard things and that stress
and challenges are good thingsthat make us stronger.
So there's a lot of literatureon growth mindset.
Carol from Stanford is famouswith that.
A lot of people know that if youhave kids because they talk a
(18:42):
lot about growth mindset forkids, but it applies to us as
well.
And growth mindset is theopposite of fixed mindset.
People just think fixed mindsetis like oh well, I'm just not
good at that, I could never dothat.
Growth mindset is with hardwork and effort I can become
skilled in that.
It's not going to be easy, butit's my effort that I put into
(19:03):
something that will lead to myability to be able to develop a
skill versus I'm good at it ornot.
So that fixed versus growthmindset, and then also just
realizing that the stress andchallenges that you'll encounter
on the journey to growing anddeveloping isn't a bad thing.
It's a good thing.
So if you think that stress isbad for you, then when you
experience stress you're goingto freak out and it's going to
(19:25):
not.
You're not going to be great athandling stress.
There's this research by umAllie Crum and Kelly McGonigal
these um, amazing researchersand they've actually found
people's mindset to stress ispredictive of their reaction to
stress.
So can I just give a littlesecret here?
MC (19:46):
Yeah.
Jill (19:47):
Stress is not going to go away, adversity is not going to
go away.
So just by telling people like,oh, stress is bad, eliminate
all stress in life, like that isthe wrong message, like I get
so frustrated.
Like we need to make peoplebetter at handling stress
because there's always going tobe stress in our lives.
You know, basically theirresearch said that if you
(20:08):
believe stress is bad, then whensomething stressful happens,
you're going to have apsychological response that is
unhealthy and it usually you'llbe stuck and then also you
actually have a physiologicalresponse that's not good.
Your blood pressure goes up.
And then if people areresponding bad to stress and
they're stressed for 20, 30years, no wonder they have
premature heart attacks.
But if you think that stress is, this is my body like preparing
(20:32):
me to perform at my best.
And when I feel these emotionsof like shakiness and maybe I'll
call it anxiety, I'm gonnastart reframing it as like I'm
excited and my body's getting meready to perform at my best,
right, like stress makes mestronger.
The difference in your beliefis an absolute game changer.
So we actually teach peoplelike how to develop a growth
(20:53):
mindset stress is enhancingmindset and then how to master,
sometimes the dialogue in ourheads and I wanted to get into
that, because that that's awhole podcast in itself is how
to change.
You know, um, you know the, theself-talk that we have in our
head.
So that's so we got to firstbelieve that we can do hard
things and that the stress andchallenges on the journey are
(21:13):
going to make us stronger andmake us better, and it's a good
thing.
And then we talk about braveactions.
So you ever run into someone inyour life that talks about I
want to do this, here's a goal,I'm going to do this.
I've got vision boards and allthis I'm going to manifest, but
then they don't take a stepforward to actually achieving it
(21:34):
.
So we have to start withmindset, but we need to teach
people how to actually takesteps forward.
So it's what I call braveaction, but it's a lot of the
science of habit teaching peopleto not to attack their day and
do the hardest thing first.
So a lot of things on how youschedule your time and effort
and how do you prime yourselffrom a psychological point of
(21:55):
view to actually take thataction each day, and then what
that does to you to get thatmomentum, and that reinforces
the mindset.
And then the last thing is whatI call brave relationships.
Surround yourself with thepeople you know, um, that will
encourage you to do the hardthing, not don't surround
yourself with other people thatsit on the couch.
Sit on the couch binge watchingNetflix all day and scrolling
(22:20):
through their phones and they'renot trying to push themselves.
So curate that group of peoplethat are going to support your
desire to accomplish hard thingsand, hopefully, people that
have done it themselves, thatthey have wisdom and experience
that you can benefit from.
And when you're going throughthe ups and downs of that
journey, they're going to be theone there to support you and
(22:42):
say you can do it, keep movingforward, versus other people say
this is so hard, why are youdoing that?
Be easy on yourself, just quit.
So that's kind of practicalstrategies.
Those three like we got to workon mindset, we got to work on
our actions.
MC (22:52):
We got to we got to work on our actions.
We got to.
We got to work on who we'resurrounding ourselves with and
if you do those three things,you will be unstoppable.
You know it's like guys, andI'm breaking the fourth wall
here now because I'veinterviewed 680 experts from in
(23:14):
and out of the car business.
From in and out of the carbusiness, the Jill Shulmans of
the world, the Jill Conraths,the Grant Cardones and Gary Vees
, and you name it.
They've been on this show andthere are principles that the
elite high performers have incommon and I'm hoping that
you've picked up on these overthe last 680 episodes.
(23:37):
When you say, surround yourselfwith the right people, you'd
have to be living under a rockat this point to not agree with
that statement.
Brave action.
I love the way that you framethat.
It's so powerful and mindset.
This leads to the last thingthat I want to just pick your
(23:59):
brain on it's correlation intoan organization.
You say so.
This is the second thing.
I heard you say that I was likeman Jill, come on, how, see?
See, because I think and I'msure you see this in the
organizations that you consultand advise and the groups you
(24:23):
speak to, everyone wants theshiny title so they can flex.
They want that.
I'm a manager, I'm a head ofsomething, I'm a director, I'm a
whatever.
And I sit here and my sentimentis how can you ever lead a group
(24:44):
of people at work if you don'tknow how to lead people at home
first, like, if you're not aleader at home, who cares if
you've got a leadership title?
And also if you don't havebasic disciplines to lead
yourself?
And I've heard you say, like,how can?
My philosophy and maybe I'mwrong, but my mindset is
(25:08):
leadership is not how well I canlogistically deploy or execute
a program.
Leadership to me is here arethe behaviors, the mindsets, the
attitudes that I desire you todemonstrate for you, that you
can learn from me so that all ofour lives are better together.
(25:31):
Like don't do what I say,actually do what I do.
I need to live my life in a waythat that is worth them, worth
following.
You know, um, tell me moreabout this, cause I know you,
you've said it and I think itties into all of these things
and we perpetually struggle withit in organizations because we
think the minute we get thatleadership title, that makes us
a leader.
Jill (25:53):
Oh my gosh.
Yes, you hit on a hot buttonfor me.
I love this, love it.
So I just want to agree withwhat you said.
Like, if you want to be a greatleader, a people leader at work
, you first have to learn how tolead yourself.
So that's why, like I, like,I'm, I'm, I do.
I've been doing leadershipdevelopment for 15 years and you
(26:13):
know fortune 500 companies, soI spent a lot of time on like,
how do I lead others?
But I always go back to likefirst it's how you lead yourself
.
That's really important.
You got to first lead yourself.
I love how you talked aboutleading your family in order to
be able to perform at work.
But here's the challenge.
I want to give a little bit ofgrace to the new leaders out
there, because sometimes it'snot their fault.
(26:33):
So what normally happens inorganizations is you are the top
performer, you are the best atdoing the thing In a dealership
out there, you're best atselling cars or doing service,
or you, you're best at the job,and so the organization says you
are the very best at doing whatyou're doing.
So we're going to promote youto a leadership position, and no
(26:54):
one really teaches people howto do the job of leading people.
And the job of leading humanbeings is totally different than
the job of doing the job itselfof driving results.
And so a lot of the trainingthat we do at companies, it's
like, oh, let's, let's teach youhow to better sell and how to
better do customer service andall of that.
But are we teaching people howto lead?
(27:15):
And that's the job of a leader.
Your job as a leader is how doyou help your people become the
best versions of themselves?
How do they develop the mindset?
How do they take the rightactions?
You know, how are theydeveloping, you know,
relationships at work where theycan learn and grow from one
another.
So, you know, I think that'skind of one of the things we've
(27:36):
got to take some ownership for.
Is the leadership team, or thehigh level, like the owners of,
you know, the businesses is likewe've got to set our people up
for success, like we've got toteach them how to lead and and
so many like you know so manyleaders and I love teaching new
leaders.
It's like my favorite becausethey're like, they're like
little sponges, but you knowwhen I, when I tell them, like
you know, your job is to serve.
(27:56):
They're like what, what, what,what to serve.
Like I'm the leader, all of youpeon.
You're going to serve me and I'mlike okay, so this is where we
go to mindset Like your job islike check your ego at the door
Right and your job every daywhen you go to work is you.
You know, first of all, youneed to have the strategy and
(28:16):
the goals.
That has to come from the topdown strategy, culture, values,
goals, responsibilities.
That's got to flow down.
But once that's done, when yougo to work each day, ask
yourself the question how can Ibest serve my team so that they
can be the most successful, sothey can succeed and win?
How do I help them create morebelief that they can achieve
(28:36):
things?
How do I help people train themon the skills that are going to
make them successful?
And sometimes we don't teachleaders how to do that.
So so I've I've got a littlebit of grace, because if they
haven't been taught how to lead,but the job is so different,
yeah, you know, we're leadinghuman beings that are complex
beings that have skills and willand emotions, and you got to
(29:00):
know how to do all that stuff tomotivate, inspire and support
your team success.
And yeah, so that's definitelya hot button.
Yeah, I completely agree witheverything you said.
MC (29:09):
I want to end on this because I think it ties into it.
You've mentioned theenvironment and I think this
kind of ties into it and howleaders are responsible for it.
I don't know if you're familiarwith Chris Bosch.
She's a happiness and like workculture professional.
I had her on the show oh gosh,I don't know five or six years
(29:34):
ago, and something she said.
What you're talking about hereand your subject matter reminds
me of something she said, whichis that it is not the leader's
responsibility to make employeeshappy.
It is their responsibility tocreate an environment in which
happiness can exist.
Jill (29:55):
Yeah.
MC (29:56):
What are your thoughts?
What's your take?
Jill (29:57):
Okay, I love that we're going to try to bring happiness
in the workplace, but I justwant to add a little bit of
layer, a little layer to this,bringing in some evidence.
So if you have a bunch of happylosers at work that are not
getting the job done, you arefailing as a leader.
So sometimes over emphasis onlike.
I just want everyone to come inand be happy and we're going to
(30:17):
like shoot the shit and we'regoing to like we're going to be
talking about you know, um, sothat is not the goal.
How do you create a culturewith both high standards of
performance, high accountability, and that environment of
(30:39):
psychological safety andpositive emotions and happiness?
So when you do these two thingstogether and I'm citing really
something that Amy Edmondsonfrom Harvard, she teaches in her
book about psychological safety, the fearless organization but
she says, like, if you, if youreally focus on psychological
safety, happiness in theworkplace, without the high
(30:59):
standards and accountability,you end up getting what I call
happy losers.
I can't remember what she calls, it apathetic or whatever.
But that's not good for theemployee because they're not
gonna learn and grow, it's notgood for our customers, it's not
good for the business.
But if you look at the oppositeof the scale, if you have a
culture of high standards, highaccountability, but you don't
(31:19):
have people with psychologicalsafety and they enjoy work,
happiness at work, then you justhave an environment, a culture
of, of, of stress and anxiety,and that's also what you don't
want.
But if you can put the twothings together and this is what
leaders need to realize, likesometimes leaders think that I
have to make a choice.
(31:39):
I've got to make a choice.
Am I going to be a jerk andhold people accountable and no
one's going to like me, or do Iget to be nice and not hold
people to standards?
And you don't have to make thatchoice and it's not that
conundrum.
You can have the two of themtogether.
Care enough about your peoplethat believe in their potential
that they can achieve the highstandard, and you care enough
(32:00):
about them and you believeenough in them that you will
hold them accountable and helpthem get there.
So you want to have thathappiness and psychological
safety along with a highstandard.
So you have a culture of highperformance where everyone is
striving to achieve or exceedthe high standards that we have.
So people go to work and saylike I work in a place that I
(32:21):
have pride, I bring value andnot just the boss holds me
accountable.
We all care about the highstandards and then we're going
to hold one another accountable.
So I would just add that layer,like sometimes in in my world
of positive psychology.
People I think spend too muchtime just talking about positive
emotion and I'm like rememberit's one fifth of happiness and
well-being.
(32:41):
So I do care about smilingemployees coming in, but we
can't only focus on that.
It's got to be in service tothe mission, the goals you know
and the strategy that we have.
MC (32:53):
I love this.
I love this conversation.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
Jill (33:01):
How can those listening and watching connect with you?
You can follow me on any socialmedia LinkedIn, instagram,
facebook, twitter, like allthose things, um, and what I try
to do there is I try to givelike little daily messages,
because a lot of times we need alittle daily message to remind
us to do hard things and to bebrave.
So I try to give like littlemessages to like everyone.
So follow me there, um, or justmy website is jillschulmancom
(33:29):
Um.
My last name is spelled S C H,u, l, m A, so Jill shulmancom Um
, and then my book is you canfind my book anywhere.
Anywhere books are sold.
You can find the bravery effectUm, there's no other book named
that.
So if you just type in thebravery effect, you'll find my
book, um, and the book iswritten as a parable.
So I tried to make it like, notlike the.
The books I like to read arelike the heavy science with all
the theory and like all thestudies, and most people don't
like to read that shit.
(33:49):
They just want to hear like,tell me that.
So I wrapped all of the scienceof bravery into an easy to read
, entertaining story that youcan read in about two hours but
you'll learn all the tips.
So that's where you can find mybook.
MC (34:04):
Well, this has been a joy and a delight.
Thanks so much for joining meon the dealer playbook podcast.
And hey, if you made it thisfar in the episode, which, in
fact, is the end, well, guesswhat?
We're going to get you somefree copies of Jill's book.
The bravery effect.
You're going to have to checkout the show notes over at the
dealer playbookcom where you cansee how to get a free copy of
(34:25):
Jill's book.
Jill, thanks so much forjoining me on the dealer
playbook podcast.
Jill (34:29):
Thanks for having me, that was fun.
MC (34:31):
Hey, thanks for listening to the dealer playbook podcast.
If you enjoyed tuning in,please subscribe, share and hit
that like button.
You can also join us and theDPB community on social media.
Check back next week for a newdealer playbook episode.
Thanks so much for joining.
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