October 16, 2025 • 51 mins
Nadine and Delvin discussed the importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) in the corporate world. Nadine emphasized that DEI is not about lowering standards but about filling critical skills gaps and gaining marketplace advantages. They noted that companies may change the names of their DEI programs to make them more palatable to opponents, but ultimately prioritize diversity for competitive reasons. Delvin highlighted the need for better public understanding of DEI's importance and shared a quote from Michael Jordan about reaching diverse audiences.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:54):
Welcome to the Delvin Cox experience, the podcast which
each week I'm on a one man mission to you.
Now I coach the diversity. I'm your host, Delvin Cox and
this week I have a fabulous guest on the podcast.
I miss Nadine Jones. How you doing miss?
Jones, I'm I'm doing great. Thanks.
Dalvin, how are you doing? I'm doing pretty good.
Pretty good. My pleasure as always.
(01:16):
Let's start podcast off with thefive for five, five questions 5
asks to get the bar rolling. Nadine, don't get scared, it's
just fun. You ready to rock'n'roll?
Yes, I am. I am all.
Right question #1 as a kid they did.
What was your go to cereal to eat?
(01:37):
Fruit Loops. That's a good cereal and a
counter question of that. I'll make this question #2 what
was the cereal that your parentsalways bought that they
shouldn't have bought because itwas trash?
Cheerios and just plain cornflakes.
But definitely Cheerios, just dry.
So your parents did the same thing my parents did was they
(01:59):
buy the Cheerios or the coral. Just add sugar on it.
Right, right, right, right, right, just.
Buy me the cereal with the sugarin it.
Right, exactly like the Fruit loops.
It cost $0.20 more. I will pay the $0.20 stop buy
this horrible cereal. Oh my goodness.
Well, my parents are from Jamaica, So what they will do
(02:22):
was on good Saturdays, let's say, they would add condensed
milk to the corn flakes and somewater.
That is delicious. Not even try that.
That sounds good. That is delicious.
Yes, Yes. But more often than not, it was
just dry corn flakes or even thedrier Cheerios.
(02:42):
Oh yeah, yeah. That is no fun question #2 Miss
Jones, what are you watching right now?
What's your favorite TV show to watch like right now?
When you want to came back and relax, what is your go to show?
It's in Gilded Age, like I'm addicted to that Gilded Age.
(03:06):
So I'm waiting for season 4 and then to relax at night.
I watch like Brit Box, like murder drama.
Oh, you lost all the the Britishshows then.
Oh, Brit Box is like Law and Order on 10.
OK, my my favorite TV show is Luther.
(03:26):
I love Luther. Oh Luther.
I don't know, I found Luther like AI mean I don't mind the
whole murder and all of that stuff but Luther was like raw.
Yes, brutal. Yeah.
Brutal. Great actor.
Yes, Yes. Yes, yes.
Luther was raw. Yeah.
All right, question #3 Miss Jones, what is the dumbest thing
(03:51):
you think you ever did as a kid?Don't say this will get us in
trouble. The dumbest thing I ever did as
a kid. I ran away from home for like 40
minutes. My dad found me and beat me on
the street. Yeah, that sounds like a
Jamaican dad. If you grow up, it's like I have
(04:14):
Bahamian family members and things like that, and I already
know, like there's certain things they look at you like you
ain't gonna do that around. That's right.
And that's one of them. You think you for to get
sympathy like now you for to getthis belt.
I've got the belt. He beat me all the way home.
Yeah, I got about two blocks. You all the way home. 40
minutes. That's not bad. 40 minutes.
(04:39):
Yeah, so you was going for 40 minutes?
Yeah, no, no, 4-4, yeah, 40 minutes.
And I got about 2 1/2 blocks down.
He. He.
Found you. It was, it was a friend.
She was, I don't know, maybe it was 89 and she wanted to run
away too. And so we had plans that we were
just gonna rent an apartment. We're like not even 10 years
(05:01):
old, not even double digits yet we had.
That's it. That's right.
That's right. Like the TV?
I remember that. Perfect strangers to some, like
I. Don't know what we were
thinking, but yeah, I got beat for that.
I didn't get a lot of beatings, but I did get beat for that,
(05:22):
yeah. That's one of them, yeah.
It's it's different era. It don't be like that so.
You. No, no, it's different.
It's different. I'm Gen.
X Yeah. Was growing up.
That belt was coming. Up.
Yeah, most definitely yes. Question #4 Give me your top
five favorite artists to listen to.
(05:45):
I love hip hop. I'm a hip hop.
I'm I'm solid hip hop. OK, OK, so in terms of what?
It's not an order of like favorites.
Who am I listening to right now?Who's hot for me right now?
That works. Cardis, am I the drama?
I'm enjoying that album. I'm enjoying it, my son.
(06:09):
Oh, you just got it. I got the collector's edition
that's autographed by her. Oh.
I went fancy with it. Are you in New York?
Where are you? I'm in.
I'm in Miami. Are you in?
Miami. I listen a lot of New York hip
hop because I grew up like a grip in the 80s and 90s and I'm
a big Nas fan. Oh, Nas is my #1 Nas is my #1 I
(06:33):
love KRS-one BDP boogie dump production.
Kendrick, My son actually turnedme on to Kendrick.
Because a lot of the new ones, I, they don't really penetrate
my world very much. I know.
I, I mean, I knew the big hits, you know, not like us and
whatever. Yeah, but he kind of turned me
on. And I've been listening to
(06:54):
Kendrick a lot. I'm enjoying Kendrick.
Kendrick. 'S great, yeah.
I think he's great smart. He's smart.
He's Woody, he's smart. Who else?
Who? I mean Biggie.
I still like Biggie. I love the stories.
I like the storytelling. You know, I mean, if I were ever
(07:17):
to be like a drug dealer, the top what the 10 crack
commandments, I'd follow that toAT he tells you exactly what to
do, what not to do and you're good.
Like I missed the stories. I always tell tell people that
back in the 90s they told you how to taught you how to do all
the crimes. Master P had a song called
(07:39):
Ghetto Dope where they literallytell you in the song how to make
crack Step 1 and it goes like step 1/2.
I didn't. Know that.
This is just a wild era. Oh my gosh, It was a wild era,
honestly. I'm big.
He's like, you call the cops on me.
(07:59):
I'm just trying to make some money to feed my daughter, you
know? I mean, like, I, I miss the
stories. And I love what I really love
with rap. I love the snapshot in time.
It's like a time capsule on vinyl, you know, so my son's
listening to some things and they're talking about Sega
(08:20):
Genesis and Word Up magazine or whatever.
He's getting a window into this pier and what was going, what
was going on at the at the time.And I, I don't know if other
music genres do that as well as hip hop does.
It's a time capsule. I agree other genres don't do it
(08:41):
as well. Hip hop paints you a picture of
that time and that generation for that matter.
Yes, yes, all of the above. Yes, yes, and.
I love it Like you can, you can go back and like I can go back
and listen to N.W.A and I can feel like I'm right there in
Compton. And feel.
For and what's going on? There.
(09:02):
Yes, exactly. I love it.
I do. Most people are surprised
because, you know, I look so proper.
I'm an attorney and I am proper and I am an attorney, but I
still love hip hop. So there you have it.
That's part of the culture. You know, we can we can love all
things that we love that we grewup off of and also be permanent,
(09:22):
proper. We need to be.
There we go. Alright question #5 TD zombie
apocalypse happens like Walking Dead style slow zombies.
OK. You got to do.
You got to go survive. You got to go out in the world
to survive. What are 5 things to take with
you to go survive in this world?05 things.
(09:46):
Yes, your family don't count. They come in with you, they're
safe. They're with you and the dog
because I come with you too, dog.
OK, so like physical things thatI'm bringing with me.
I'm bringing a backpack filled with water, water bottles, as
many as I can carry. I'm bringing.
I don't know how long my chargerwill work, but it's apocalypse.
(10:09):
So there's no Wi-Fi, there's no cell coverage, there's no
nothing. Is I, I would say I'll give you
a hit. It's it's the beginning days of
the apocalypse. So some of that stuff may still
be around, but not. For long so I'll bring my
portable like a charger doesn't have to be plugged in and keep
things charged. I actually have a solar charger.
I do see. So I bring the solar charger, I
(10:31):
bring food. I pack my son's NASDAQ with as
much like Lunchables, you know, things that could last a long
time. Not a lot of fresh food, but as
much food as possible 'cause they are.
That's good. Yeah.
He likes the duck. The Logan Paul Lunchables, they
(10:52):
called, they called lunchly or something like that.
No. They are terrible.
My my son told me about them. They are not great.
I wouldn't even he hasn't mentioned it.
No, no, like he like like like the the regular one, like the
crackers, cheese ham. Sometimes sometimes they have
like little like nugget type of dunkables.
(11:13):
So I pack as much, although I don't have a lot of those, but I
pack as much just junk cookies, things that last a long time,
long shelf life. OK, that's two.
I pack shoes, socks and underwear.
That's just me. I packed deodorant because you
know, I would just pack deodorant.
(11:35):
My hair is natural so I could gowithout anything really.
And a leash for the dog. OK.
Is that 5? I think so, yeah.
That's five and our passports. OK.
I appreciate your answers because normally when we have
guys on here, right, yeah, firstthing they say is I need a gun,
(11:56):
then I need another gun, and then I need a third gun.
You have like sensible things that makes sense and I like
that. I'll find a guy with a gun to
walk with us, how about that? That works, That works.
There we go. There'll be plenty of them out
there. That's so.
Funny. One thing about one thing about
(12:17):
an American, we always have gunsaround.
They're everywhere. You can just look on the sock
draw. Oh my God, in a closet there's a
gun somewhere. Oh, that's so funny.
It never even occurred to me, but OK, that would make sense
with zombies coming at you. Alright, take it.
OK. Let everybody know what you do
(12:40):
while you're here 'cause you do a lot of things and it's pretty
cool. I do you know, I've had I'm
having AI have a great career and it's taking me to a lot of
great places and and subjects. So I'm a Howard law graduate
that's first and foremost. I'm still Hu the.
Smartest person that's come on this show ever.
There we go, Hu, You know, Yeah,Howard Law and I stayed in DC at
(13:04):
a law firm after I finished law school in 2003, stayed there for
9 years, had a baby and then gotseparated like within the same
year and needed a different lifestyle.
Like I needed normal hours. And so I moved to Jersey City
for a corporate job and build uptheir compliance program.
(13:27):
Then I moved into the general counsel office, so to speak.
And then I became general counsel and ran the legal
department. And so I was there for just over
12 years. And then in January this year, I
left to start a consulting business and that's what I'm
doing now. So I'm working with, you know,
different projects, but the biggest project is with a
(13:49):
nonprofit, a pretty big nonprofit that I can't really
talk about the details, but it'ssomething that's exciting, it's
something that's meaningful. It's something that's needed.
You know, all the things that I need to feel fulfilling, what
I'm doing, I need to, my work needs to matter.
To me, everything you said, I have so many questions and so
(14:13):
many layers, so I'm going to tryto try to start this off easy as
possible. There you go.
OK. General counsel for quite a long
time, right? Well, I worked for the company
for a long time, but I was general counsel for just under
three years before I left, not because of that position, but
there was a reorg and a global reorg.
(14:37):
And my role changed in ways thatI just, I didn't think I'd be
happy there and I don't think they would be happy with me not
being happy. So we made a decision to part
ways very amicable. I found my own replacement.
He's amazing. You know, I interviewed and
(14:57):
found my own replacement and he's fantastic.
So we we left on good terms, really good terms.
That's that's amazing that you were able to like find your own
replacement and y'all left on positive terms and things like
that. Not something happens often at
all. No, but you know, I love my
team, so I could not leave them not cared for.
(15:18):
So it was not, it wasn't so muchthat I'm just such a kind
person. It was I'm leaving behind a
group of people that I helped todevelop, who I care deeply
about. And I had to find the right
person that would develop them. Not everybody does that.
Some people are kind of like youwork for me, you stay in your
(15:41):
lane but not promote them. And I wanted them to be promoted
and to have FaceTime with, you know, powerful people and, and
find the right personality for that.
So I found a great guy, man. Yeah.
So how did you build yourself upto even get to a position like
that? Because I'm, I imagine you being
(16:02):
a black woman, it's a little bitof a chore to kind of especially
nowadays. Like I know when you first
thought it wasn't like that, buteven more so nowadays.
It's a chore and a challenge notonly to be heard but to be
respected for the work. That yes, yes, well, that's,
that's so insightful. I, I came in here's here's what
(16:26):
I think happened. Well, a couple of things
happened. One, I came into the company at
a time when they desperately needed someone with my skill
set. They had just come out of an
antitrust mishap, if you want tocall it that.
And my background was antitrust.And so I helped them to build a
compliance program. So I came into the company at a
(16:49):
very at AVP level already and inan area that all eyes were on
me. You say jump, they say how high
because they're so hungry for the learning and for the
compliance training so that theydon't have to go through what
they went through with the DOJ and the antitrust deficient.
(17:09):
So I came in in in a very visible role at a time when I
got nothing, but everyone was receptive.
And then I had North America, soI had visibility in the US,
visibility in Canada, visibilityin Mexico.
So I'm not saying I wasn't a black woman.
I was a black woman, but it's almost like that was irrelevant
(17:33):
to them. I had the knowledge in my head
that they. Needed to be cleaned up and they
were like you are the only person who can do this please
fix this. Yes, that's right.
And I inherited also a team in other areas like trade, which I
didn't know anything about at the time, import, exports.
I know a lot now. So it was, it was a time the
(17:55):
timing was uniquely positioned for me to be visible.
And I didn't know what the reception would be like.
It's a German company. I'm like, do they even like
black people? I don't even know.
I'm moving from DC Chocolate City to Jersey City to work for
a German company. Like, what's it going to be
like? It didn't matter.
I had what they needed and they were just like, just give us
(18:18):
more so. You know, that is a good point
that I didn't, I didn't even think about like when you're
working for companies that's outside of the state and like,
like you said, like a German company, you don't know what
their expectations is of a blackperson or how they feel about
it. So it's kind of really
interesting that you went in there and kind of like did what
you did. I, I honestly, I did not know.
(18:39):
I mean, the company was head, there was a branch or
headquarters in Jersey City, butthe culture and the company
itself was a German culture, a very European German culture.
And I don't know if my boss was great, the person who hired me,
a white man, and he brought me into meetings that further
(19:04):
increased my visibility. And he had like 2 homes.
And so when he was at his other home, I was kind of like the
number 2. And if you like Star Trek, you
know, you'd have Captain Picard and then he'd have his number
one person, right? And I was like the backup.
And so if he was out, the board would come to me.
(19:25):
Nadine, can you look into this? Nadine?
Nadine. Nadine.
So you start to develop this comfort with power and they
start to see you as being someone who can help them and,
and not intimidated. They don't like people to be
intimidated by their position. If you're like Hemming and
(19:46):
hawing, OK, yes, Mr. CEO, they're not mad at you for it,
but they prefer if you can relate to them in such a way
that you can help them and not be so overwhelmed by their by
their position. And I was not overwhelmed at
all. And then my boss retired.
(20:07):
A couple of things happened in between, and I moved over to
work more directly under him. He retired and I interviewed for
the replacement to be his replacement.
And they said yes, first black anything in the C-Suite on the
board. And I was the second woman by
two months. Now this was a company, let's
(20:30):
just say it's very old company, never had a woman board member
before. And I was the second one and the
first black anything, man, woman, whatever.
So it was, it was new. It was what's the word?
(20:51):
I wasn't sure what my voice was going to be.
I wasn't sure how vocal I would be.
And then I had ACEO, who likes yeses but doesn't like yes men.
So if I had a thought that was different from the group, I felt
(21:15):
safe enough to say I'm, I don't think that's going to work.
Or let's look at it another way.And sometimes as a woman, as a
single mom, as a woman of color,as a black person, you know, I
might have insights that others don't have.
And that's why you're at the table.
(21:35):
You're at the table so that you can make sure all the blind
spots are covered. And that's that's why I believe
in diversity anyway. Yeah, I was going to just touch
on that 'cause I think it's important and you're you're the
perfect example of that, of how sometimes having different
voices in rooms can benefit you immensely.
(21:58):
Absolutely. It's alarming to see where we're
going in the country where they're trying to take that
away. OK, So what you want to talk
about? What?
What's being taken away with DEI?
We can, yeah. We can talk touch on that a
little bit. Their understanding of DEI is,
(22:22):
of course, flawed. It's not affirmative action, nor
is it a, a, a lessening or lowering of standards.
And what they are forgetting is that in the corporate world,
green always Trump's black. So if I have the knowledge in my
head that the company needs, guess who they're going to hire?
(22:45):
They're going to hire me becausethere's, there's, there's a
almost like an agnostic need that I can feel.
And that's really what kind of drives corporations.
Yeah. They want to do the right thing.
Yes. And does diversity matter in
(23:07):
terms of appearances, especiallyif you're public in the
shareholders and so forth? Yes.
But I suspect, and I'm at a corporate, out of the corporate
world right now, so I can't confirm, but I suspect they're
still hiring diverse people. They're just calling their
programs different names. They're just calling it
something else. Inclusive human base, I don't
(23:32):
know. They're just calling it
different acronyms, different, different.
Names to to kind of like, yeah, palpable to people because
that's right. Because unfortunately it seems
like there is this disconnect. The people hear these hot words
like DI and they don't know the meaning of the word.
They don't know what it entails.And I think because of that they
(23:56):
just think they they hear handout which this not the case
at all. It's not the case at all.
You can look at any Harvard Business Review article about
diversity and output and marketplace advantage and what
it does to the bottom line. You can't get around the
numbers. The more diverse your
corporation is, your company is even your society is, the, the
(24:19):
better widget you put out in themarket, you are just more
competitive point blank period. I think that's what they say
now, point blank period. So the, the, the, the TNL
supports having a diverse workforce because again, all of
your blind spots are covered andyou can penetrate markets better
(24:43):
if you have not just a black person, but a black person with
a voice that can be heard, or a Latino person with a voice, or a
member of the LGBTQ plus community with a voice that can
be heard. And they can give you insights
into their own community that helps you knit together a better
widget. So the the marketplace, I mean,
(25:06):
they can do a pump fake to changing the the words, but at
the end of the day, they're not going to let their bottom line
suffer because folks don't understand what diversity is or
DEI is rather. Yeah.
And I think it's, I think you'recorrect.
I think it's important that people understand what those
things is and why, why it's important.
(25:28):
I think it's the most important part like, hey, why do we have
these things in place? Because frankly speaking, a
while ago, famous basketball player, you may know him,
Michael Jordan said that, hey, Republicans buy shoes too.
And, you know, and, and you saidthat in a way because you know,
people you like, why don't you ever speak about political
issues? You said it back then because of
(25:48):
that, like, Hey, I'm trying to sell these shoes.
And, and you know, it's, it's funny, but that's what companies
really look at. They look at the bottom line,
they look at the, the green. They're trying to get this
money. So they're like, Hey, we got to
reach as many people as we can. That is, that is right.
That is right. Now, if you were a government
(26:09):
contractor and your number one customer is the federal
government, maybe you have a different approach to this.
Maybe you forgo the benefits of DEI in order to, you know,
accommodate your biggest customer, like a customer that
represents 90% of your revenues.Even then, I suspect they're not
(26:29):
doing it. I think it's hard to roll back
to just having a homogeneous workforce because brilliance is
in everybody. Brilliance is in a Howard grad,
brilliance is in a Community College grad.
Brilliance is is ideas are just if you, if you have the insight
(26:50):
to look where to find it, that'swhat's going to make you more
competitive. So I don't really see people or
companies, for profit companies going back to homogeneous
workforce. I mean Indian technology and,
and, and software development and so forth.
They're, they're not going to dothat.
(27:10):
They're just not because at the end of the day, they've got to
be competitive and they need thediversity of ideas and it's not
always found in a white straightman period.
So I think they will be creativeand come up with different ways
to achieve the same objective, which is their bottom line,
their P&L and their market sharein the in the marketplace.
(27:34):
Let let me ask you a question. This is on a similar topic, a
little bit different because I think this is also interesting
considering the work that you do.
We're in this age now where these companies are trying to
get AI to do all of their work and you know, to varying degrees
of success. So how did that affect you in
(27:55):
the business that you're in? I I wish I had gotten the
ability to work more with AII, tried to introduce it but it's a
very traditional industry and slow to take on new technology.
It's actually now that I'm out of that company that I use AI
(28:16):
quite a bit. And to me, AII treat like
ChatGPT. I treat it like I would treat a
legal assistant or a law clerk at the law firm.
I already know the answer, I've already read the case.
(28:40):
Now I just need you to give me 4paragraphs and I want you to
provide me with a summary with an emphasis on ABC and D 'cause
I know what part of the case I need to focus on.
Chat. Great.
Or if I need like documents, like visuals, I love it when
(29:02):
chat. If you see, would you like an
infographic to accompany that? Nadine Well, yes, I would.
I would like that very much. And so I use it like I would use
like I would work with a junior associate or with a a law clerk.
If you just ask chat to read theSupreme Court decision and tell
(29:23):
me what the main points are, that's not how you use that.
At least that AI, they get stuffwrong.
I have to go back and say, no, no, no, it wasn't Justice
Roberts who did that, said that,it was Justice Jackson.
And then it comes like, oh, you're right, Nadine, you're so
correct. And then they make the
correction. So you can't use it to
(29:44):
substitute for your knowledge. And I have the nuance in my head
and I have the analysis and I know what my client needs.
Now, sometimes I might use Chad as a, as a thought partner.
And then I program the question to be highly skeptical, highly
(30:06):
critical of what I'm about to say and find every hole I I use
it to, to shore, to shore up my thinking.
And it's pretty good with that. But I have to tell it to be
critical in its answer for assume I've made mistakes in my
analysis. Otherwise chat will have you
(30:27):
thinking you're back to win the next, you know, Nobel Prize or
something. I appreciate your logic and
reasoning with it because you'vegiven actually a lot of very
helpful ways to use chat PT to help you kind of just critical
think and analyze things. Yeah, it's it's good for that,
but for let's say no more repetitive lower wage office
(30:51):
jobs. Excuse me, I don't know, I'm
sibling. It does have the ability to take
some of those jobs to perform those functions, to perform
those functions. So like if I need a chart, if I
need, you know, some type of pivot table or whatever the case
(31:15):
may be, or if I need it to flag every time you see the word
privacy in this document, I wantyou to highlight it yellow.
Those types of jobs are going togo away.
Check. Excuse me.
Sorry, allergies, I. Have them all.
The time, oh I'm so sorry, checkcan do that in 36 seconds.
(31:38):
So as a manager, what's your responsibility?
You got to level up. Sorry.
You have to level up your your direct reports or you have to
level up your team. You have to get them comfortable
enough with the technology so that they're the ones telling
chat, I want you to highlight every time you see privacy,
(32:01):
highlight it yellow and put it in a chart.
So rather than have the tool replace the job of the lower
wage, probably office worker, you need to level up your your,
your employees if you want to keep them.
(32:21):
So it's just going to be faster,that's all.
Instead of using a fax, we use e-mail.
Does it replace our jobs? No, it doesn't replace our jobs.
It's faster, It's more more convenient, you can attach
documents and fax you got feededin Page by page and it takes
forever and all that stuff. So I'm kind of looking at AI in
that way of just streamlining monotonous paper document heavy
(32:50):
work. But I do believe it should not
replace employees, that as a manager you need to train and
level up your your team. I think that's a good point.
I think it's also good that you said that.
And I like the fact that you were saying instead of
replacing, you can let them use the resources to make their work
(33:12):
faster so you can itemize and cap and focus on other things.
As opposed to, hey, this thing that normally takes us 30
minutes to an hour to do takes you now 30 seconds, 30 seconds.
So with that 30 seconds, with that 30 minutes you have now you
can go do this, this miss. Exactly, exactly.
(33:33):
You know, take the results and then put together a PowerPoint
or whatever document you're going to put together.
And now I want you to present tome what you think the key points
are that we need to, to, to, to focus on.
So now I'm, I'm, I'm loving, I'm, I'm encouraging you to do
some analysis. Now I want you to do some public
speaking. Now I want you to present as
(33:55):
opposed to simply highlighting a200 page document and flag every
time you see the word privacy. No, no, no.
Now you're going up a little bit, a little bit higher and
you're going to give me a littlebit of analysis.
How, how does that work for you?Now everybody's different.
You've got folks that have the gift of gab, others who are
uncomfortable, but anyone who knows their craft, they'll be
(34:16):
able to say, well, look, you know, the way that privacy just
says the example is written, it's actually going to be
confusing. And so I think what we should do
is go to a different word like blah, blah, blah.
You can have your, your, your admin will be able to tell you
what's going to help him or her in their, in their task as
opposed to just having them flagging and putting, you know,
(34:38):
little markers to, to flag thesewords.
Everyone has the ability to elevate if they want to.
Now, if let's say I'm 70 years old, I mean, I want to level up.
I might be like, you know what, I'm good and, and I, you know, I
(34:58):
just waiting out my retirement and I'm retiring 6 months and I
really don't want to present before the board.
Just respect where, where they are in their journey, their
career journey, because I've hadthat in the past where I've
wanted to promote someone. They did not want to be
promoted. They had a six spouse.
(35:21):
I didn't know they had a six spouse and they were like the
primary caregiver. And so where they were in their
confines was perfectly suited for them.
They weren't trying to take on more responsibility.
They weren't trying to be more visible.
They weren't trying to be the first woman of anything.
(35:41):
They just wanted to come in, do their job and go home.
So that was a lesson for me thatjust because you want something
for someone doesn't mean that's what they want for themselves at
this particular time. So as a manager, again, if
you're looking into AI and working with AI, how about one O
(36:01):
1 with your team, One O 1, see what they what they want.
I like that you brought that point because there's a lot of
people in this world who know what they want for themselves,
and once they get it, they're content with it.
I know when you're dealing with companies and you're dealing
with management, they always tryto push employees to kind of
(36:23):
like reach higher goals and stuff like that.
But sometimes, like a like a good basketball team, you got a
good point guard, you stay playing point guard.
Exactly. We don't.
Know exactly that's shooting 33 pointers.
These things are being considered like, you know.
Exactly, exactly, exactly. That's funny.
(36:46):
Can you imagine Shaq as a flip card?
That'd be funny. Yes, and I, I think that's a
good, that's a good thing. As a manager, it's a person who
who leads others, which you clearly are to be able to point
that out. And then they're like, OK, this
person, this is their goals. Let me let them do them.
Yes, but I learned up through mistakes.
(37:06):
I'm just telling people your your listeners, because I did it
the wrong way. And then I I learned these are
mistakes that I made, but. But the key to it is you learned
and developed. I think that's all the part of
just as a person growing and building and becoming who you
are today, becoming a success there.
(37:28):
You make mistakes, you learn from them.
You build off those mistakes to make yourself successful.
Like you know. Yes, yes, exactly, exactly.
And now as I get older, I kind of could look at the world in
different, different ways as well to have an understanding
like not everyone wants to climbto the top of the Himalayas, you
(37:50):
know what I mean? And, and say, oh, look what I
did. You're in a different part of
your life. A friend of mine is older.
It's like a neighbor friend and they're moving And they were
describing the house that my first thought was, aren't those
a lot of stairs? They're like, no, I thought the
(38:10):
same thing. I worried about the same thing.
No, it's the top. Top units have a lot of stairs
now. Why did I ask that question 20
years ago, 30 years ago, Why would I even care about how many
stairs you have, you know, or how many stairs I would have in
a new house. But as you get older, those
things become, huh, there's like15 stairs to climb.
(38:35):
And while I can climb that now, if I'm 80, how am I going to
feel about that? So you just look at the same
house and you have a different analysis depending on where you
are in the stage of life, and you just learn.
That's all you, you, you just, you just learn.
So yeah, it was a learning experience.
So let me ask you this questions.
(38:57):
I wouldn't say it's personal. It's it's business personal.
Where do you think you're at nowin your life in terms of
business and what you do as in terms of your career?
I don't know which is uncomfortable.
It is very uncomfortable for me.I've always known, OK, you do
well in law school, which I did.I was top 10%, went into a top
(39:19):
firm. Then I got a great job in house,
VP, then became SVP, board member, reporting directly CEO.
Like I'm tracking, right? I'm tracking general counsel,
I'm tracking now. I need different things.
I'm discovering that I need different things.
(39:43):
It's not just the money. Yes, the money matters, but it's
not just the money. It's what is the mission of this
company? What are the values?
Who will I be working with? Are we helping anyone?
Doesn't have to be a non profit,but you know is does what we do
(40:06):
advance or help people? Those are the things that I'm
finding. Matter to me and I don't want to
do the grind anymore. I don't want to do the 60 to 80
hour a week. I don't want to have my phone
and laptop going while I'm on vacation.
(40:28):
I want not to have to do that. So I don't know if there's a
corporate role out there for me where I'm still going to make a
lot of money, but do meaningful work and work with people that I
(40:48):
respect. We don't have to be besties.
I'm just saying you're decent. Like your values align with my
values. I I just don't want to be in a
space where my, who I am is justalways, there's always this
friction with the current of howthe company treats people.
(41:10):
I want to do that. And I didn't have that at my
last job, thankfully, which is why I could stay for 12 plus
years. I do not want that anymore.
I don't, I mean, I don't want that.
I don't care how much money you pay me.
Yeah, I think there's been a thing, especially lately,
there's been a thing where larger companies, people work in
(41:32):
these companies. It feels more blatant that you
kind of, I want to say blood money, but it it's a tone that
comes with an attack that comes with almost on your humanity and
the things you have to do to kind of be successful at it.
Eldon I don't. I can't.
I don't want to do that. That is, that is not an
(41:53):
environment for me. And if that means downsizing and
getting paid less money will survive it.
It's, it's that important to me not to compromise my humanity or
to be in an environment where the humanity of others is of no
(42:15):
moment of no concern. I, I can't, I really just can't
do it. I think what you're saying is
noble, and I think it's great because you're basically saying
I'm choosing my happiness over adollar amount.
I am. I am.
(42:36):
Look, I mean, I'm in a position of privilege that my fridge is
filled with food, my freeze is full, my dog's happy, my kids
happy. Maybe not in the right order.
I should have put the kid first.Everybody's happy.
We don't like for anything. The Wi-Fi is working.
I get to talk to wonderful. Meet new people such as
yourself. Life is good, life's happy.
And I acknowledge that I'm in a position of privilege, but I got
(43:01):
to tell you, I just, I would do it if I had to do it, but I
would not stay there long. That's an honest answer.
I would take, I would take the job if we were on the brink of
starvation, but I would not staythere long because you know what
happens? You become like the people you
associate with you. You take on those values, you
(43:25):
take on I've, I'm watching it happen in society.
People who people who maybe 10 years ago wouldn't, wouldn't,
would be horrified at the thought of laughing about what
do they call it, Crocodile alligator, Alcatraz, 10 years
(43:46):
later, 10 years later, that you could be that callous, right?
If you were to meet them 10 years earlier, they would be.
I would, I would never laugh at something like that.
That's an awful thing to say, Nadine.
If I were to say, you know, 10 years down the road, you're
going to think it's pretty funnythat immigrants could be eaten
(44:06):
by alligators and think it's a big joke.
So we just have to be careful. I call it you ever take the
Holland Tunnel here in Jersey, Jersey to New York City?
I have not. OK, so the Holland Tunnel
actually goes through the riverbed, but they built the
(44:30):
tunnel through the riverbed of Hudson River to get you through
over to the other side to New York or vice versa.
The descent is gradual. You don't even realize because
it is such a slow, gradual descent that the thought that
(44:51):
you could be driving through a riverbed.
And I know I think I have that right.
You don't even feel it, that you're going down so low.
It's a very slow descent. So I use that when I think about
working in environments with values and working for people
that are or to me are callous oror don't appreciate the dignity
(45:17):
or humanity of others. It doesn't.
It's on a day one that you become like that, but it's a
gradual alignment of values and it usually involves you
descending to that value set. And I, that is not who I want to
(45:38):
be. That is not who I want to be.
So yeah, I don't, you know, I'lltake the lower paying job,
hopefully I don't have to, but Iwill.
That's not who I'm, that's not, that's not who I am.
I'm not doing that I think. That's amazing.
One more question then I'm goingto ask you, and I think this is
important for everybody else. Just listen to this podcast
(45:59):
right now. You chose happiness over wealth.
My question to you is what advice you would give to someone
in your same position who has the knowledge that you have to
do with their life and just how to build on things?
(46:22):
Meaning in terms of choices. Choices and the path you went
down to in terms of success, like somebody who's trying to
get where you're at now, not only with business wise, but
happiness wise. Happiness wise, don't.
Don't be me, don't take care of yourself.
(46:50):
And along the way, don't wait until I'm I probably wasn't
burnout. Don't wait until you get to that
point to find yourself again. No, I was in a good place.
I didn't have to compromise my my morals and my values, but I
took care of everyone and everything else and I did not
(47:13):
take care of myself. And it's only now that I've
stopped that I'm starting to maybe heel is too strong of a
word, but connect with what I like, with what I need, with
beauty, with having flowers in my office and dancing and taking
(47:36):
dance breaks, you know, just just things that that I need.
And now I just have a bit clearer vision.
And that's, that's on me, you know, and I, I never really grew
up seeing people take breaks. And that was not, or to, you
know what I came from a working class family and I and I, my
(48:00):
mom, she didn't know self-care either.
She knows it now that she's retired, but I didn't grow up
modeling or seeing it modeled for me.
So I would say if you can incorporate, put yourself on the
list of to do and don't take yourself off the list, which is
(48:20):
what I would do. I would put myself on the list.
But then other things would comeup involving my job, involving
my family, involving my parents,involving the church.
You know, I'm a Christian woman involved.
And then I just get bumped down lower, lower, lower until
eventually the 8 1/2 by 11 paper, I'm off the list.
I'm not even on the list anymore.
(48:41):
So I think if you just stay connected to you, take the time
to just wake up in the morning and just listen to the birds or
just have a scent that you like.I love aromatherapy.
I'm all into that now. Exercise, laugh a lot, laugh a
(49:04):
lot. I think your life becomes
clearer. You won't have to get to my
point. You're going to, you're going to
create a reality that fits you in.
You wouldn't have mine. My way is extreme.
I think what I've done is extreme.
Like I said, I want, I jumped from a plane without a parachute
(49:26):
with my kid on my back as well. Very irresponsible in a way,
very irresponsible. But I feel so confident that the
universe is going to make space for the Unidine.
I don't know what it's going to look like.
I don't know what the salary. I think the salary is going to
(49:47):
be good. I think it's going to be just
fine. But I'm in an uncharted
territory because now I know better what I need to thrive and
I'm not willing to compromise that.
I'm just not. I matter.
I, I, I don't care. I, I don't, I don't care what
(50:08):
the judgments are. I don't care.
I like it. And this is what I need and this
is what I'm going for. Period.
I love. It fantastic.
You're amazing. You made it easy.
Thank you, Dalman. You're.
Welcome, let them know how to find you at Nadine if anybody
wants to contact you, offer you a bag of money or something like
that. I'll take it.
(50:29):
You can find me on LinkedIn. So Nadine Jones, LinkedIn Jersey
City. You can find me on LinkedIn
through General Counsel Support Services also, which is my
consulting business. You can find me at
gcsupportservice.com. That's the, that's the website.
And there's a, you can e-mail methrough that.
(50:53):
That's, that's probably it. I'm not.
I'm not as active on IG or or Facebook as I should be, but
Linkedin's your best bet if you want to get in touch with me.
Perfect. And we would definitely have you
back on Nadine if if you're willing to take us to say the
least. I would love to.
I would love to, alright. Thank you guys for listening.
(51:14):
As always, Delvin Cox Spears, weare out.
Peace.
Welcome to the Delvin Cox experience, the podcast which
each week I'm on a one man mission to you.
Now I coach the diversity. I'm your host, Delvin Cox and
this week I have a fabulous guest on the podcast.
I miss Nadine Jones. How you doing miss?
Jones, I'm I'm doing great. Thanks.
Dalvin, how are you doing? I'm doing pretty good.
Pretty good. My pleasure as always.
(01:16):
Let's start podcast off with thefive for five, five questions 5
asks to get the bar rolling. Nadine, don't get scared, it's
just fun. You ready to rock'n'roll?
Yes, I am. I am all.
Right question #1 as a kid they did.
What was your go to cereal to eat?
(01:37):
Fruit Loops. That's a good cereal and a
counter question of that. I'll make this question #2 what
was the cereal that your parentsalways bought that they
shouldn't have bought because itwas trash?
Cheerios and just plain cornflakes.
But definitely Cheerios, just dry.
So your parents did the same thing my parents did was they
(01:59):
buy the Cheerios or the coral. Just add sugar on it.
Right, right, right, right, right, just.
Buy me the cereal with the sugarin it.
Right, exactly like the Fruit loops.
It cost $0.20 more. I will pay the $0.20 stop buy
this horrible cereal. Oh my goodness.
Well, my parents are from Jamaica, So what they will do
(02:22):
was on good Saturdays, let's say, they would add condensed
milk to the corn flakes and somewater.
That is delicious. Not even try that.
That sounds good. That is delicious.
Yes, Yes. But more often than not, it was
just dry corn flakes or even thedrier Cheerios.
(02:42):
Oh yeah, yeah. That is no fun question #2 Miss
Jones, what are you watching right now?
What's your favorite TV show to watch like right now?
When you want to came back and relax, what is your go to show?
It's in Gilded Age, like I'm addicted to that Gilded Age.
(03:06):
So I'm waiting for season 4 and then to relax at night.
I watch like Brit Box, like murder drama.
Oh, you lost all the the Britishshows then.
Oh, Brit Box is like Law and Order on 10.
OK, my my favorite TV show is Luther.
(03:26):
I love Luther. Oh Luther.
I don't know, I found Luther like AI mean I don't mind the
whole murder and all of that stuff but Luther was like raw.
Yes, brutal. Yeah.
Brutal. Great actor.
Yes, Yes. Yes, yes.
Luther was raw. Yeah.
All right, question #3 Miss Jones, what is the dumbest thing
(03:51):
you think you ever did as a kid?Don't say this will get us in
trouble. The dumbest thing I ever did as
a kid. I ran away from home for like 40
minutes. My dad found me and beat me on
the street. Yeah, that sounds like a
Jamaican dad. If you grow up, it's like I have
(04:14):
Bahamian family members and things like that, and I already
know, like there's certain things they look at you like you
ain't gonna do that around. That's right.
And that's one of them. You think you for to get
sympathy like now you for to getthis belt.
I've got the belt. He beat me all the way home.
Yeah, I got about two blocks. You all the way home. 40
minutes. That's not bad. 40 minutes.
(04:39):
Yeah, so you was going for 40 minutes?
Yeah, no, no, 4-4, yeah, 40 minutes.
And I got about 2 1/2 blocks down.
He. He.
Found you. It was, it was a friend.
She was, I don't know, maybe it was 89 and she wanted to run
away too. And so we had plans that we were
just gonna rent an apartment. We're like not even 10 years
(05:01):
old, not even double digits yet we had.
That's it. That's right.
That's right. Like the TV?
I remember that. Perfect strangers to some, like
I. Don't know what we were
thinking, but yeah, I got beat for that.
I didn't get a lot of beatings, but I did get beat for that,
(05:22):
yeah. That's one of them, yeah.
It's it's different era. It don't be like that so.
You. No, no, it's different.
It's different. I'm Gen.
X Yeah. Was growing up.
That belt was coming. Up.
Yeah, most definitely yes. Question #4 Give me your top
five favorite artists to listen to.
(05:45):
I love hip hop. I'm a hip hop.
I'm I'm solid hip hop. OK, OK, so in terms of what?
It's not an order of like favorites.
Who am I listening to right now?Who's hot for me right now?
That works. Cardis, am I the drama?
I'm enjoying that album. I'm enjoying it, my son.
(06:09):
Oh, you just got it. I got the collector's edition
that's autographed by her. Oh.
I went fancy with it. Are you in New York?
Where are you? I'm in.
I'm in Miami. Are you in?
Miami. I listen a lot of New York hip
hop because I grew up like a grip in the 80s and 90s and I'm
a big Nas fan. Oh, Nas is my #1 Nas is my #1 I
(06:33):
love KRS-one BDP boogie dump production.
Kendrick, My son actually turnedme on to Kendrick.
Because a lot of the new ones, I, they don't really penetrate
my world very much. I know.
I, I mean, I knew the big hits, you know, not like us and
whatever. Yeah, but he kind of turned me
on. And I've been listening to
(06:54):
Kendrick a lot. I'm enjoying Kendrick.
Kendrick. 'S great, yeah.
I think he's great smart. He's smart.
He's Woody, he's smart. Who else?
Who? I mean Biggie.
I still like Biggie. I love the stories.
I like the storytelling. You know, I mean, if I were ever
(07:17):
to be like a drug dealer, the top what the 10 crack
commandments, I'd follow that toAT he tells you exactly what to
do, what not to do and you're good.
Like I missed the stories. I always tell tell people that
back in the 90s they told you how to taught you how to do all
the crimes. Master P had a song called
(07:39):
Ghetto Dope where they literallytell you in the song how to make
crack Step 1 and it goes like step 1/2.
I didn't. Know that.
This is just a wild era. Oh my gosh, It was a wild era,
honestly. I'm big.
He's like, you call the cops on me.
(07:59):
I'm just trying to make some money to feed my daughter, you
know? I mean, like, I, I miss the
stories. And I love what I really love
with rap. I love the snapshot in time.
It's like a time capsule on vinyl, you know, so my son's
listening to some things and they're talking about Sega
(08:20):
Genesis and Word Up magazine or whatever.
He's getting a window into this pier and what was going, what
was going on at the at the time.And I, I don't know if other
music genres do that as well as hip hop does.
It's a time capsule. I agree other genres don't do it
(08:41):
as well. Hip hop paints you a picture of
that time and that generation for that matter.
Yes, yes, all of the above. Yes, yes, and.
I love it Like you can, you can go back and like I can go back
and listen to N.W.A and I can feel like I'm right there in
Compton. And feel.
For and what's going on? There.
(09:02):
Yes, exactly. I love it.
I do. Most people are surprised
because, you know, I look so proper.
I'm an attorney and I am proper and I am an attorney, but I
still love hip hop. So there you have it.
That's part of the culture. You know, we can we can love all
things that we love that we grewup off of and also be permanent,
(09:22):
proper. We need to be.
There we go. Alright question #5 TD zombie
apocalypse happens like Walking Dead style slow zombies.
OK. You got to do.
You got to go survive. You got to go out in the world
to survive. What are 5 things to take with
you to go survive in this world?05 things.
(09:46):
Yes, your family don't count. They come in with you, they're
safe. They're with you and the dog
because I come with you too, dog.
OK, so like physical things thatI'm bringing with me.
I'm bringing a backpack filled with water, water bottles, as
many as I can carry. I'm bringing.
I don't know how long my chargerwill work, but it's apocalypse.
(10:09):
So there's no Wi-Fi, there's no cell coverage, there's no
nothing. Is I, I would say I'll give you
a hit. It's it's the beginning days of
the apocalypse. So some of that stuff may still
be around, but not. For long so I'll bring my
portable like a charger doesn't have to be plugged in and keep
things charged. I actually have a solar charger.
I do see. So I bring the solar charger, I
(10:31):
bring food. I pack my son's NASDAQ with as
much like Lunchables, you know, things that could last a long
time. Not a lot of fresh food, but as
much food as possible 'cause they are.
That's good. Yeah.
He likes the duck. The Logan Paul Lunchables, they
(10:52):
called, they called lunchly or something like that.
No. They are terrible.
My my son told me about them. They are not great.
I wouldn't even he hasn't mentioned it.
No, no, like he like like like the the regular one, like the
crackers, cheese ham. Sometimes sometimes they have
like little like nugget type of dunkables.
(11:13):
So I pack as much, although I don't have a lot of those, but I
pack as much just junk cookies, things that last a long time,
long shelf life. OK, that's two.
I pack shoes, socks and underwear.
That's just me. I packed deodorant because you
know, I would just pack deodorant.
(11:35):
My hair is natural so I could gowithout anything really.
And a leash for the dog. OK.
Is that 5? I think so, yeah.
That's five and our passports. OK.
I appreciate your answers because normally when we have
guys on here, right, yeah, firstthing they say is I need a gun,
(11:56):
then I need another gun, and then I need a third gun.
You have like sensible things that makes sense and I like
that. I'll find a guy with a gun to
walk with us, how about that? That works, That works.
There we go. There'll be plenty of them out
there. That's so.
Funny. One thing about one thing about
(12:17):
an American, we always have gunsaround.
They're everywhere. You can just look on the sock
draw. Oh my God, in a closet there's a
gun somewhere. Oh, that's so funny.
It never even occurred to me, but OK, that would make sense
with zombies coming at you. Alright, take it.
OK. Let everybody know what you do
(12:40):
while you're here 'cause you do a lot of things and it's pretty
cool. I do you know, I've had I'm
having AI have a great career and it's taking me to a lot of
great places and and subjects. So I'm a Howard law graduate
that's first and foremost. I'm still Hu the.
Smartest person that's come on this show ever.
There we go, Hu, You know, Yeah,Howard Law and I stayed in DC at
(13:04):
a law firm after I finished law school in 2003, stayed there for
9 years, had a baby and then gotseparated like within the same
year and needed a different lifestyle.
Like I needed normal hours. And so I moved to Jersey City
for a corporate job and build uptheir compliance program.
(13:27):
Then I moved into the general counsel office, so to speak.
And then I became general counsel and ran the legal
department. And so I was there for just over
12 years. And then in January this year, I
left to start a consulting business and that's what I'm
doing now. So I'm working with, you know,
different projects, but the biggest project is with a
(13:49):
nonprofit, a pretty big nonprofit that I can't really
talk about the details, but it'ssomething that's exciting, it's
something that's meaningful. It's something that's needed.
You know, all the things that I need to feel fulfilling, what
I'm doing, I need to, my work needs to matter.
To me, everything you said, I have so many questions and so
(14:13):
many layers, so I'm going to tryto try to start this off easy as
possible. There you go.
OK. General counsel for quite a long
time, right? Well, I worked for the company
for a long time, but I was general counsel for just under
three years before I left, not because of that position, but
there was a reorg and a global reorg.
(14:37):
And my role changed in ways thatI just, I didn't think I'd be
happy there and I don't think they would be happy with me not
being happy. So we made a decision to part
ways very amicable. I found my own replacement.
He's amazing. You know, I interviewed and
(14:57):
found my own replacement and he's fantastic.
So we we left on good terms, really good terms.
That's that's amazing that you were able to like find your own
replacement and y'all left on positive terms and things like
that. Not something happens often at
all. No, but you know, I love my
team, so I could not leave them not cared for.
(15:18):
So it was not, it wasn't so muchthat I'm just such a kind
person. It was I'm leaving behind a
group of people that I helped todevelop, who I care deeply
about. And I had to find the right
person that would develop them. Not everybody does that.
Some people are kind of like youwork for me, you stay in your
(15:41):
lane but not promote them. And I wanted them to be promoted
and to have FaceTime with, you know, powerful people and, and
find the right personality for that.
So I found a great guy, man. Yeah.
So how did you build yourself upto even get to a position like
that? Because I'm, I imagine you being
(16:02):
a black woman, it's a little bitof a chore to kind of especially
nowadays. Like I know when you first
thought it wasn't like that, buteven more so nowadays.
It's a chore and a challenge notonly to be heard but to be
respected for the work. That yes, yes, well, that's,
that's so insightful. I, I came in here's here's what
(16:26):
I think happened. Well, a couple of things
happened. One, I came into the company at
a time when they desperately needed someone with my skill
set. They had just come out of an
antitrust mishap, if you want tocall it that.
And my background was antitrust.And so I helped them to build a
compliance program. So I came into the company at a
(16:49):
very at AVP level already and inan area that all eyes were on
me. You say jump, they say how high
because they're so hungry for the learning and for the
compliance training so that theydon't have to go through what
they went through with the DOJ and the antitrust deficient.
(17:09):
So I came in in in a very visible role at a time when I
got nothing, but everyone was receptive.
And then I had North America, soI had visibility in the US,
visibility in Canada, visibilityin Mexico.
So I'm not saying I wasn't a black woman.
I was a black woman, but it's almost like that was irrelevant
(17:33):
to them. I had the knowledge in my head
that they. Needed to be cleaned up and they
were like you are the only person who can do this please
fix this. Yes, that's right.
And I inherited also a team in other areas like trade, which I
didn't know anything about at the time, import, exports.
I know a lot now. So it was, it was a time the
(17:55):
timing was uniquely positioned for me to be visible.
And I didn't know what the reception would be like.
It's a German company. I'm like, do they even like
black people? I don't even know.
I'm moving from DC Chocolate City to Jersey City to work for
a German company. Like, what's it going to be
like? It didn't matter.
I had what they needed and they were just like, just give us
(18:18):
more so. You know, that is a good point
that I didn't, I didn't even think about like when you're
working for companies that's outside of the state and like,
like you said, like a German company, you don't know what
their expectations is of a blackperson or how they feel about
it. So it's kind of really
interesting that you went in there and kind of like did what
you did. I, I honestly, I did not know.
(18:39):
I mean, the company was head, there was a branch or
headquarters in Jersey City, butthe culture and the company
itself was a German culture, a very European German culture.
And I don't know if my boss was great, the person who hired me,
a white man, and he brought me into meetings that further
(19:04):
increased my visibility. And he had like 2 homes.
And so when he was at his other home, I was kind of like the
number 2. And if you like Star Trek, you
know, you'd have Captain Picard and then he'd have his number
one person, right? And I was like the backup.
And so if he was out, the board would come to me.
(19:25):
Nadine, can you look into this? Nadine?
Nadine. Nadine.
So you start to develop this comfort with power and they
start to see you as being someone who can help them and,
and not intimidated. They don't like people to be
intimidated by their position. If you're like Hemming and
(19:46):
hawing, OK, yes, Mr. CEO, they're not mad at you for it,
but they prefer if you can relate to them in such a way
that you can help them and not be so overwhelmed by their by
their position. And I was not overwhelmed at
all. And then my boss retired.
(20:07):
A couple of things happened in between, and I moved over to
work more directly under him. He retired and I interviewed for
the replacement to be his replacement.
And they said yes, first black anything in the C-Suite on the
board. And I was the second woman by
two months. Now this was a company, let's
(20:30):
just say it's very old company, never had a woman board member
before. And I was the second one and the
first black anything, man, woman, whatever.
So it was, it was new. It was what's the word?
(20:51):
I wasn't sure what my voice was going to be.
I wasn't sure how vocal I would be.
And then I had ACEO, who likes yeses but doesn't like yes men.
So if I had a thought that was different from the group, I felt
(21:15):
safe enough to say I'm, I don't think that's going to work.
Or let's look at it another way.And sometimes as a woman, as a
single mom, as a woman of color,as a black person, you know, I
might have insights that others don't have.
And that's why you're at the table.
(21:35):
You're at the table so that you can make sure all the blind
spots are covered. And that's that's why I believe
in diversity anyway. Yeah, I was going to just touch
on that 'cause I think it's important and you're you're the
perfect example of that, of how sometimes having different
voices in rooms can benefit you immensely.
(21:58):
Absolutely. It's alarming to see where we're
going in the country where they're trying to take that
away. OK, So what you want to talk
about? What?
What's being taken away with DEI?
We can, yeah. We can talk touch on that a
little bit. Their understanding of DEI is,
(22:22):
of course, flawed. It's not affirmative action, nor
is it a, a, a lessening or lowering of standards.
And what they are forgetting is that in the corporate world,
green always Trump's black. So if I have the knowledge in my
head that the company needs, guess who they're going to hire?
(22:45):
They're going to hire me becausethere's, there's, there's a
almost like an agnostic need that I can feel.
And that's really what kind of drives corporations.
Yeah. They want to do the right thing.
Yes. And does diversity matter in
(23:07):
terms of appearances, especiallyif you're public in the
shareholders and so forth? Yes.
But I suspect, and I'm at a corporate, out of the corporate
world right now, so I can't confirm, but I suspect they're
still hiring diverse people. They're just calling their
programs different names. They're just calling it
something else. Inclusive human base, I don't
(23:32):
know. They're just calling it
different acronyms, different, different.
Names to to kind of like, yeah, palpable to people because
that's right. Because unfortunately it seems
like there is this disconnect. The people hear these hot words
like DI and they don't know the meaning of the word.
They don't know what it entails.And I think because of that they
(23:56):
just think they they hear handout which this not the case
at all. It's not the case at all.
You can look at any Harvard Business Review article about
diversity and output and marketplace advantage and what
it does to the bottom line. You can't get around the
numbers. The more diverse your
corporation is, your company is even your society is, the, the
(24:19):
better widget you put out in themarket, you are just more
competitive point blank period. I think that's what they say
now, point blank period. So the, the, the, the TNL
supports having a diverse workforce because again, all of
your blind spots are covered andyou can penetrate markets better
(24:43):
if you have not just a black person, but a black person with
a voice that can be heard, or a Latino person with a voice, or a
member of the LGBTQ plus community with a voice that can
be heard. And they can give you insights
into their own community that helps you knit together a better
widget. So the the marketplace, I mean,
(25:06):
they can do a pump fake to changing the the words, but at
the end of the day, they're not going to let their bottom line
suffer because folks don't understand what diversity is or
DEI is rather. Yeah.
And I think it's, I think you'recorrect.
I think it's important that people understand what those
things is and why, why it's important.
(25:28):
I think it's the most important part like, hey, why do we have
these things in place? Because frankly speaking, a
while ago, famous basketball player, you may know him,
Michael Jordan said that, hey, Republicans buy shoes too.
And, you know, and, and you saidthat in a way because you know,
people you like, why don't you ever speak about political
issues? You said it back then because of
(25:48):
that, like, Hey, I'm trying to sell these shoes.
And, and you know, it's, it's funny, but that's what companies
really look at. They look at the bottom line,
they look at the, the green. They're trying to get this
money. So they're like, Hey, we got to
reach as many people as we can. That is, that is right.
That is right. Now, if you were a government
(26:09):
contractor and your number one customer is the federal
government, maybe you have a different approach to this.
Maybe you forgo the benefits of DEI in order to, you know,
accommodate your biggest customer, like a customer that
represents 90% of your revenues.Even then, I suspect they're not
(26:29):
doing it. I think it's hard to roll back
to just having a homogeneous workforce because brilliance is
in everybody. Brilliance is in a Howard grad,
brilliance is in a Community College grad.
Brilliance is is ideas are just if you, if you have the insight
(26:50):
to look where to find it, that'swhat's going to make you more
competitive. So I don't really see people or
companies, for profit companies going back to homogeneous
workforce. I mean Indian technology and,
and, and software development and so forth.
They're, they're not going to dothat.
(27:10):
They're just not because at the end of the day, they've got to
be competitive and they need thediversity of ideas and it's not
always found in a white straightman period.
So I think they will be creativeand come up with different ways
to achieve the same objective, which is their bottom line,
their P&L and their market sharein the in the marketplace.
(27:34):
Let let me ask you a question. This is on a similar topic, a
little bit different because I think this is also interesting
considering the work that you do.
We're in this age now where these companies are trying to
get AI to do all of their work and you know, to varying degrees
of success. So how did that affect you in
(27:55):
the business that you're in? I I wish I had gotten the
ability to work more with AII, tried to introduce it but it's a
very traditional industry and slow to take on new technology.
It's actually now that I'm out of that company that I use AI
(28:16):
quite a bit. And to me, AII treat like
ChatGPT. I treat it like I would treat a
legal assistant or a law clerk at the law firm.
I already know the answer, I've already read the case.
(28:40):
Now I just need you to give me 4paragraphs and I want you to
provide me with a summary with an emphasis on ABC and D 'cause
I know what part of the case I need to focus on.
Chat. Great.
Or if I need like documents, like visuals, I love it when
(29:02):
chat. If you see, would you like an
infographic to accompany that? Nadine Well, yes, I would.
I would like that very much. And so I use it like I would use
like I would work with a junior associate or with a a law clerk.
If you just ask chat to read theSupreme Court decision and tell
(29:23):
me what the main points are, that's not how you use that.
At least that AI, they get stuffwrong.
I have to go back and say, no, no, no, it wasn't Justice
Roberts who did that, said that,it was Justice Jackson.
And then it comes like, oh, you're right, Nadine, you're so
correct. And then they make the
correction. So you can't use it to
(29:44):
substitute for your knowledge. And I have the nuance in my head
and I have the analysis and I know what my client needs.
Now, sometimes I might use Chad as a, as a thought partner.
And then I program the question to be highly skeptical, highly
(30:06):
critical of what I'm about to say and find every hole I I use
it to, to shore, to shore up my thinking.
And it's pretty good with that. But I have to tell it to be
critical in its answer for assume I've made mistakes in my
analysis. Otherwise chat will have you
(30:27):
thinking you're back to win the next, you know, Nobel Prize or
something. I appreciate your logic and
reasoning with it because you'vegiven actually a lot of very
helpful ways to use chat PT to help you kind of just critical
think and analyze things. Yeah, it's it's good for that,
but for let's say no more repetitive lower wage office
(30:51):
jobs. Excuse me, I don't know, I'm
sibling. It does have the ability to take
some of those jobs to perform those functions, to perform
those functions. So like if I need a chart, if I
need, you know, some type of pivot table or whatever the case
(31:15):
may be, or if I need it to flag every time you see the word
privacy in this document, I wantyou to highlight it yellow.
Those types of jobs are going togo away.
Check. Excuse me.
Sorry, allergies, I. Have them all.
The time, oh I'm so sorry, checkcan do that in 36 seconds.
(31:38):
So as a manager, what's your responsibility?
You got to level up. Sorry.
You have to level up your your direct reports or you have to
level up your team. You have to get them comfortable
enough with the technology so that they're the ones telling
chat, I want you to highlight every time you see privacy,
(32:01):
highlight it yellow and put it in a chart.
So rather than have the tool replace the job of the lower
wage, probably office worker, you need to level up your your,
your employees if you want to keep them.
(32:21):
So it's just going to be faster,that's all.
Instead of using a fax, we use e-mail.
Does it replace our jobs? No, it doesn't replace our jobs.
It's faster, It's more more convenient, you can attach
documents and fax you got feededin Page by page and it takes
forever and all that stuff. So I'm kind of looking at AI in
that way of just streamlining monotonous paper document heavy
(32:50):
work. But I do believe it should not
replace employees, that as a manager you need to train and
level up your your team. I think that's a good point.
I think it's also good that you said that.
And I like the fact that you were saying instead of
replacing, you can let them use the resources to make their work
(33:12):
faster so you can itemize and cap and focus on other things.
As opposed to, hey, this thing that normally takes us 30
minutes to an hour to do takes you now 30 seconds, 30 seconds.
So with that 30 seconds, with that 30 minutes you have now you
can go do this, this miss. Exactly, exactly.
(33:33):
You know, take the results and then put together a PowerPoint
or whatever document you're going to put together.
And now I want you to present tome what you think the key points
are that we need to, to, to, to focus on.
So now I'm, I'm, I'm loving, I'm, I'm encouraging you to do
some analysis. Now I want you to do some public
speaking. Now I want you to present as
(33:55):
opposed to simply highlighting a200 page document and flag every
time you see the word privacy. No, no, no.
Now you're going up a little bit, a little bit higher and
you're going to give me a littlebit of analysis.
How, how does that work for you?Now everybody's different.
You've got folks that have the gift of gab, others who are
uncomfortable, but anyone who knows their craft, they'll be
(34:16):
able to say, well, look, you know, the way that privacy just
says the example is written, it's actually going to be
confusing. And so I think what we should do
is go to a different word like blah, blah, blah.
You can have your, your, your admin will be able to tell you
what's going to help him or her in their, in their task as
opposed to just having them flagging and putting, you know,
(34:38):
little markers to, to flag thesewords.
Everyone has the ability to elevate if they want to.
Now, if let's say I'm 70 years old, I mean, I want to level up.
I might be like, you know what, I'm good and, and I, you know, I
(34:58):
just waiting out my retirement and I'm retiring 6 months and I
really don't want to present before the board.
Just respect where, where they are in their journey, their
career journey, because I've hadthat in the past where I've
wanted to promote someone. They did not want to be
promoted. They had a six spouse.
(35:21):
I didn't know they had a six spouse and they were like the
primary caregiver. And so where they were in their
confines was perfectly suited for them.
They weren't trying to take on more responsibility.
They weren't trying to be more visible.
They weren't trying to be the first woman of anything.
(35:41):
They just wanted to come in, do their job and go home.
So that was a lesson for me thatjust because you want something
for someone doesn't mean that's what they want for themselves at
this particular time. So as a manager, again, if
you're looking into AI and working with AI, how about one O
(36:01):
1 with your team, One O 1, see what they what they want.
I like that you brought that point because there's a lot of
people in this world who know what they want for themselves,
and once they get it, they're content with it.
I know when you're dealing with companies and you're dealing
with management, they always tryto push employees to kind of
(36:23):
like reach higher goals and stuff like that.
But sometimes, like a like a good basketball team, you got a
good point guard, you stay playing point guard.
Exactly. We don't.
Know exactly that's shooting 33 pointers.
These things are being considered like, you know.
Exactly, exactly, exactly. That's funny.
(36:46):
Can you imagine Shaq as a flip card?
That'd be funny. Yes, and I, I think that's a
good, that's a good thing. As a manager, it's a person who
who leads others, which you clearly are to be able to point
that out. And then they're like, OK, this
person, this is their goals. Let me let them do them.
Yes, but I learned up through mistakes.
(37:06):
I'm just telling people your your listeners, because I did it
the wrong way. And then I I learned these are
mistakes that I made, but. But the key to it is you learned
and developed. I think that's all the part of
just as a person growing and building and becoming who you
are today, becoming a success there.
(37:28):
You make mistakes, you learn from them.
You build off those mistakes to make yourself successful.
Like you know. Yes, yes, exactly, exactly.
And now as I get older, I kind of could look at the world in
different, different ways as well to have an understanding
like not everyone wants to climbto the top of the Himalayas, you
(37:50):
know what I mean? And, and say, oh, look what I
did. You're in a different part of
your life. A friend of mine is older.
It's like a neighbor friend and they're moving And they were
describing the house that my first thought was, aren't those
a lot of stairs? They're like, no, I thought the
(38:10):
same thing. I worried about the same thing.
No, it's the top. Top units have a lot of stairs
now. Why did I ask that question 20
years ago, 30 years ago, Why would I even care about how many
stairs you have, you know, or how many stairs I would have in
a new house. But as you get older, those
things become, huh, there's like15 stairs to climb.
(38:35):
And while I can climb that now, if I'm 80, how am I going to
feel about that? So you just look at the same
house and you have a different analysis depending on where you
are in the stage of life, and you just learn.
That's all you, you, you just, you just learn.
So yeah, it was a learning experience.
So let me ask you this questions.
(38:57):
I wouldn't say it's personal. It's it's business personal.
Where do you think you're at nowin your life in terms of
business and what you do as in terms of your career?
I don't know which is uncomfortable.
It is very uncomfortable for me.I've always known, OK, you do
well in law school, which I did.I was top 10%, went into a top
(39:19):
firm. Then I got a great job in house,
VP, then became SVP, board member, reporting directly CEO.
Like I'm tracking, right? I'm tracking general counsel,
I'm tracking now. I need different things.
I'm discovering that I need different things.
(39:43):
It's not just the money. Yes, the money matters, but it's
not just the money. It's what is the mission of this
company? What are the values?
Who will I be working with? Are we helping anyone?
Doesn't have to be a non profit,but you know is does what we do
(40:06):
advance or help people? Those are the things that I'm
finding. Matter to me and I don't want to
do the grind anymore. I don't want to do the 60 to 80
hour a week. I don't want to have my phone
and laptop going while I'm on vacation.
(40:28):
I want not to have to do that. So I don't know if there's a
corporate role out there for me where I'm still going to make a
lot of money, but do meaningful work and work with people that I
(40:48):
respect. We don't have to be besties.
I'm just saying you're decent. Like your values align with my
values. I I just don't want to be in a
space where my, who I am is justalways, there's always this
friction with the current of howthe company treats people.
(41:10):
I want to do that. And I didn't have that at my
last job, thankfully, which is why I could stay for 12 plus
years. I do not want that anymore.
I don't, I mean, I don't want that.
I don't care how much money you pay me.
Yeah, I think there's been a thing, especially lately,
there's been a thing where larger companies, people work in
(41:32):
these companies. It feels more blatant that you
kind of, I want to say blood money, but it it's a tone that
comes with an attack that comes with almost on your humanity and
the things you have to do to kind of be successful at it.
Eldon I don't. I can't.
I don't want to do that. That is, that is not an
(41:53):
environment for me. And if that means downsizing and
getting paid less money will survive it.
It's, it's that important to me not to compromise my humanity or
to be in an environment where the humanity of others is of no
(42:15):
moment of no concern. I, I can't, I really just can't
do it. I think what you're saying is
noble, and I think it's great because you're basically saying
I'm choosing my happiness over adollar amount.
I am. I am.
(42:36):
Look, I mean, I'm in a position of privilege that my fridge is
filled with food, my freeze is full, my dog's happy, my kids
happy. Maybe not in the right order.
I should have put the kid first.Everybody's happy.
We don't like for anything. The Wi-Fi is working.
I get to talk to wonderful. Meet new people such as
yourself. Life is good, life's happy.
And I acknowledge that I'm in a position of privilege, but I got
(43:01):
to tell you, I just, I would do it if I had to do it, but I
would not stay there long. That's an honest answer.
I would take, I would take the job if we were on the brink of
starvation, but I would not staythere long because you know what
happens? You become like the people you
associate with you. You take on those values, you
(43:25):
take on I've, I'm watching it happen in society.
People who people who maybe 10 years ago wouldn't, wouldn't,
would be horrified at the thought of laughing about what
do they call it, Crocodile alligator, Alcatraz, 10 years
(43:46):
later, 10 years later, that you could be that callous, right?
If you were to meet them 10 years earlier, they would be.
I would, I would never laugh at something like that.
That's an awful thing to say, Nadine.
If I were to say, you know, 10 years down the road, you're
going to think it's pretty funnythat immigrants could be eaten
(44:06):
by alligators and think it's a big joke.
So we just have to be careful. I call it you ever take the
Holland Tunnel here in Jersey, Jersey to New York City?
I have not. OK, so the Holland Tunnel
actually goes through the riverbed, but they built the
(44:30):
tunnel through the riverbed of Hudson River to get you through
over to the other side to New York or vice versa.
The descent is gradual. You don't even realize because
it is such a slow, gradual descent that the thought that
(44:51):
you could be driving through a riverbed.
And I know I think I have that right.
You don't even feel it, that you're going down so low.
It's a very slow descent. So I use that when I think about
working in environments with values and working for people
that are or to me are callous oror don't appreciate the dignity
(45:17):
or humanity of others. It doesn't.
It's on a day one that you become like that, but it's a
gradual alignment of values and it usually involves you
descending to that value set. And I, that is not who I want to
(45:38):
be. That is not who I want to be.
So yeah, I don't, you know, I'lltake the lower paying job,
hopefully I don't have to, but Iwill.
That's not who I'm, that's not, that's not who I am.
I'm not doing that I think. That's amazing.
One more question then I'm goingto ask you, and I think this is
important for everybody else. Just listen to this podcast
(45:59):
right now. You chose happiness over wealth.
My question to you is what advice you would give to someone
in your same position who has the knowledge that you have to
do with their life and just how to build on things?
(46:22):
Meaning in terms of choices. Choices and the path you went
down to in terms of success, like somebody who's trying to
get where you're at now, not only with business wise, but
happiness wise. Happiness wise, don't.
Don't be me, don't take care of yourself.
(46:50):
And along the way, don't wait until I'm I probably wasn't
burnout. Don't wait until you get to that
point to find yourself again. No, I was in a good place.
I didn't have to compromise my my morals and my values, but I
took care of everyone and everything else and I did not
(47:13):
take care of myself. And it's only now that I've
stopped that I'm starting to maybe heel is too strong of a
word, but connect with what I like, with what I need, with
beauty, with having flowers in my office and dancing and taking
(47:36):
dance breaks, you know, just just things that that I need.
And now I just have a bit clearer vision.
And that's, that's on me, you know, and I, I never really grew
up seeing people take breaks. And that was not, or to, you
know what I came from a working class family and I and I, my
(48:00):
mom, she didn't know self-care either.
She knows it now that she's retired, but I didn't grow up
modeling or seeing it modeled for me.
So I would say if you can incorporate, put yourself on the
list of to do and don't take yourself off the list, which is
(48:20):
what I would do. I would put myself on the list.
But then other things would comeup involving my job, involving
my family, involving my parents,involving the church.
You know, I'm a Christian woman involved.
And then I just get bumped down lower, lower, lower until
eventually the 8 1/2 by 11 paper, I'm off the list.
I'm not even on the list anymore.
(48:41):
So I think if you just stay connected to you, take the time
to just wake up in the morning and just listen to the birds or
just have a scent that you like.I love aromatherapy.
I'm all into that now. Exercise, laugh a lot, laugh a
(49:04):
lot. I think your life becomes
clearer. You won't have to get to my
point. You're going to, you're going to
create a reality that fits you in.
You wouldn't have mine. My way is extreme.
I think what I've done is extreme.
Like I said, I want, I jumped from a plane without a parachute
(49:26):
with my kid on my back as well. Very irresponsible in a way,
very irresponsible. But I feel so confident that the
universe is going to make space for the Unidine.
I don't know what it's going to look like.
I don't know what the salary. I think the salary is going to
(49:47):
be good. I think it's going to be just
fine. But I'm in an uncharted
territory because now I know better what I need to thrive and
I'm not willing to compromise that.
I'm just not. I matter.
I, I, I don't care. I, I don't, I don't care what
(50:08):
the judgments are. I don't care.
I like it. And this is what I need and this
is what I'm going for. Period.
I love. It fantastic.
You're amazing. You made it easy.
Thank you, Dalman. You're.
Welcome, let them know how to find you at Nadine if anybody
wants to contact you, offer you a bag of money or something like
that. I'll take it.
(50:29):
You can find me on LinkedIn. So Nadine Jones, LinkedIn Jersey
City. You can find me on LinkedIn
through General Counsel Support Services also, which is my
consulting business. You can find me at
gcsupportservice.com. That's the, that's the website.
And there's a, you can e-mail methrough that.
(50:53):
That's, that's probably it. I'm not.
I'm not as active on IG or or Facebook as I should be, but
Linkedin's your best bet if you want to get in touch with me.
Perfect. And we would definitely have you
back on Nadine if if you're willing to take us to say the
least. I would love to.
I would love to, alright. Thank you guys for listening.
(51:14):
As always, Delvin Cox Spears, weare out.
Peace.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.