July 11, 2025 • 31 mins
In this episode of The Digital Marketing Podcast, Daniel Rowles explores one of the most unexpected but powerful business case studies in modern branding: Taylor Swift! Joined by Kevin Evers, Senior Editor at Harvard Business Review and author of There’s Nothing Like This. Kevin dives into how Swift’s career offers a masterclass in brand strategy, audience connection, and long-term business thinking. Why does a global superstar in a notoriously cutthroat industry continue to outperform and outlast her peers? According to Kevin, it’s not luck or fandom - it’s strategy. Drawing on insights from his newly released book, Kevin breaks down the key inflection points in Swift’s 20-year career. From turning down a major label at age 13 to preserve creative control, to executing one of the boldest rebranding and ownership moves in music history with her “Taylor’s Version” re-recordings, this episode examines how Swift embodies the core principles of marketing, product-market fit, and customer obsession. Daniel and Kevin unpack how Taylor Swift: Identified a niche audience when the data said it wasn’t viable Built trust and intimacy into her brand from day one Embraced user-generated content and fan communities to expand reach Navigated multiple brand pivots without losing authenticity Took complete ownership of her brand and intellectual property Continues to evolve while staying aligned to her audience’s needs They also explore how her fandom operates as a distributed marketing engine, elevating everything from live streams to lyric analysis and decoding hidden clues. With references to startup thinking, customer experience design, and even parallels with Jobs-to-Be-Done theory, this conversation turns a pop icon into a blueprint for brand building at scale. Whether you’re a marketer, entrepreneur or brand strategist, this episode offers rare insight into what it takes to build something culturally durable, and fiercely customer-centric. Key Takeaways: Brand clarity trumps market data when paired with conviction Fan communities can become your most powerful marketing asset Ownership and authenticity are strategic decisions, not just personal ones Pivoting is easier when you’ve built long-term trust Obsessing over your audience is a competitive advantage 📥 Access the show notes, tools, and links at: 📩 Join the free newsletter for access to Daniel’s monthly live sessions:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back to the DigitalMarketing Podcast, brought to
you by target internet.com.
My name's Daniel Rolls, and in thisepisode we are talking branding strategy.
And believe it or not, Taylor Swift.
(00:22):
So we get reached out to every day bylots and lots of people that would like
to either be featured on the podcast orto get someone featured on the podcast.
We have a lot of PR companies reachout to us, and I had one of the most
intriguing outreaches I've ever had.
Uh, somebody reached out and said,would you like to speak to Kevin Evers?
Uh, because Kevin has written a bookcalled, there's nothing like this now.
(00:45):
Kevin is, an editor atHarvard Business Review.
Has got a long history of workingwith some very interesting business
titles of projects, but basicallyhe's written a book that says, what's
the strategic genius of Taylor Swift?
You heard it, right?
So basically looking at TaylorSwift's career and saying,
(01:07):
why is she so successful?
What are the clever moves that she's made?
What is the strategythat she's implemented?
What are the plans that she's madethat have made her so globally,
hugely, hugely successful?
And actually, the more I read, the morefascinated I was because actually there's
a load of actionable lessons in here.
And a lot of the things that wetalk about in marketing strategy.
Really you started to resonateas I walked through the book.
(01:31):
Kevin is a very knowledgeable, verywell prepped, very highly researched
guy who really knows his topic as well,and has obviously put a huge amount
of work and effort into the book.
So it's a fascinating interview.
There's loads of practical insights there.
If you're not a Taylor Swift fan,if you're not a swifty, don't worry.
I wasn't a swifty going intothis, but I was very, very
(01:52):
impressed and I learned a lot.
So over to the interview.
Daniel Rowles (01:57):
tell us a little bit about who you are and, that that'll
give us some context going forwards.
Kevin Evers (02:02):
I am Kevin.
I am a senior editor at HBR.
I work predominantly onthe book side of the house.
means I acquire and I edit books, workwith authors, helping them shape their
ideas and to position their books inthe marketplace for optimal success.
I, I always have a joke.
I edit everything but cookbooksand fiction, it seems.
(02:25):
I've edited books andinnovation, creativity, high
performance finance, you name it.
I've edited a book on it and.
I'm a bit of a Renaissance man 'causeI, I, I know all of these subjects
and I get to work with great authorsand I get to work on great books
and that has also helped me in myown writing because I've been able
to use all of this vast knowledgeand apply it to different subjects
Daniel Rowles (02:50):
So what really inspired you to write about this?
Because my take on this the PRcompanies reach out and say, oh,
this amazing book's come out, wouldyou like to, to have the author on?
And we get a lot of them.
And I was like, oh, this really caughtmy attention because as someone.
It's not Swifty, but he's veryaware of, of Taylor Swift.
But I've heard from a thousandpeople, oh, why is she so successful?
I don't really get it becausethey're not the target audience.
(03:12):
I was really interested to hearwhat kind of inspired you in the
first place to start writing.
Kevin Evers (03:15):
I know I get this question a lot, especially since I'm an HBR editor.
People are like, why are you spendingso much time writing about Taylor Swift?
Shouldn't you be writing about, you know,some other company or some other brand?
That's what attracted me to Taylor tobegin with, because she's operating in
an industry that's super brutal, likethe musicing industry is really fickle.
It's really brutish.
(03:36):
We tend to cycle throughartists, stars, even superstars
if there are fashion trends.
And Taylor's been doing thisfor 20 years, and she's more
popular now than she's ever been.
She's reached this Beatlesesque phenomenon, this cultural
phenomenon at this point.
So I wanted to pull back and figureout how she's been able to do it,
and the more I look into her career.
The more I realized that this couldbe a great entertaining book because
(04:00):
she's had so many ups and downs.
She's gone through so many controversiesand there is so much business that
I could project onto her career,and that's what excited me the most.
I love how you used that word,human-centric, because I really felt like
I could write a very human book and Icould write it in chronological order.
(04:20):
We could show her from the timeshe's 14, 15 years old, all the way
up to current day 35 and go throughevery major part of her career and
look at the decisions that she made.
And that's pretty rare tohave the opportunity to do
Daniel Rowles (04:35):
I mean the, the amount of research that I've got into the
book is, is clear from the outset.
'cause you get into it at the beginningand it's talking about her being like 13,
14 years old and this kind of vision thatshe had for, for what she was going to be.
And I thought that was really interesting.
It's like that clarity of visionseemed to get her to cut through
and get her a lot of respect there,which she wouldn't got otherwise.
So it'd be great to hearabout, hear about that.
Kevin Evers (04:56):
This is what surprised me the most because we normally don't
think of a 13, 14, 15-year-old ashaving a very clear vision of who
they are and, and the audience theywanna hit, especially an artist.
really did.
She knew that she wantedto write her own songs.
That was a strength of hers.
And that's not necessarily, orat least at the time, wasn't
common in the country Music.
(05:18):
Usually it's professionalsongwriters who do that,
especially if you're a teen artist.
Teen artists were not writing theirown songs, she wanted to write
those songs for an audience of herpeers, and that was teenage girls.
The consensus in the industry was,I think you need to slow down a bit.
That's there's not really a market forteenage girls and they, those executives
were, were right in many aspects.
(05:40):
They had the data and they had thefailed experiences to back that up.
But Taylor was really persistent.
She knew that.
Her friends were listening to countrymusic and she knew that her friends were
resonating with her music, and I don't,if she didn't have such a clear vision,
not sure we'd be talking about TaylorSwift today because she probably would've
(06:02):
waited until she was 18, 19 to release analbum and she may have missed her window.
what happened is, and think shewas reading Blue Ocean Strategy,
I don't think she was reading HBR.
Or other magazines to figure out,oh, what should my strategy be?
But I think she instinctually knew thatthere was a market that the industry
(06:23):
was blind to and that she could hit thatmarket, and she ended up doing that.
So she ended up seizing an opportunitythat other people had ignored, and
because of that, that was a big reasonwhy she found early success in country
Daniel Rowles (06:35):
I mean that clarity of vision piece in terms
of, you know, the record label.
I just remember reading the first chapter,I think it was the first chapter where
they were talking about she'd left thatrecord label, although they started
nurturing her 'cause they wanted to kindof build her up and maybe wouldn't kind
of push her forward till she was 18.
strong enough at the age of1314, to have the boldness to
do that is quite exceptional.
I.
Kevin Evers (06:52):
Her vision enabled her to make some bold decisions That
on paper seemed pretty wild to do.
you're right, she had adevelopment deal with RCA Records.
RCA was one of the biggest labelson Nashville's music Row at the
time, and they were developing her.
Then after a year.
As part of those developmentdeals, the label has a choice.
(07:12):
They can sign you to a record deal,they can cut you loose, they'll
extend your development deal.
And they wanted to extend Taylor, butthey also intimated that, you know,
maybe you should write some otherpeople's songs or maybe you should
perform some other people's songs.
Taylor was getting the hints that maybethey didn't quite believe in her vision.
And what she ended up doing, she endedup signing with a man named Scott Beta.
(07:35):
Who was a promotions guy, a universallabel group, but he had left his
label or was in the process of leavinghis label to start his own label.
It ended up being called Big MachineRecords, and that was a pretty
wild move 'cause he didn't havefunding, didn't have headquarters,
he didn't have a name for his label.
He believed in her vision.
(07:56):
He said, I'm never gonna tell you towrite or perform someone else's songs.
Taylor believed in him and that ended upbeing a great decision for her because
Scott had a lot of skin in the game.
He really needed Taylor Swift to succeed.
there are so many challenges and becausethe industry, especially the gatekeepers
like record but also the people in radio,since they didn't believe that a teenage
(08:20):
girl could find success at this time.
She really needed someone who couldpush through and come up with creative
ideas to promote her her work,
Daniel Rowles (08:31):
I mean, there's some real parallels there with like the startup
culture, of starting from nothing andjust having that clear vision to do
that and, and how that label did that.
But also, if we go back to your commenta moment ago in terms of the data wasn't
there to back up, there was a demand for.
The music for that particular teenageaudience, it's kinda like Steve Jobs.
There was a bit of a Steve Job desk thingof like, well, we, we need this thing.
They dunno they want it,but we're gonna create it.
(08:53):
And I, you drew that parallel betweenactually a lot of the things that she did.
She didn't look it up and abutch did it instinctively.
But that's, that's similar to thoseother kind of great, um, founders and
startup growers that we talk about.
Kevin Evers (09:05):
for sure.
And it was also great that shehad Scott Becetta in her, in her
corner too, because had sensed.
That there was a market for this.
He had promoted and worked withan artist called Jessica Andrews.
She was a teenager.
This was years before, and Jessica Andrewsdidn't really take off, but they did do a
grassroots campaign where they would bringher to high schools and she would perform
(09:29):
and he could feel the energy in the room.
He could feel that the teenagersin the room were really resonating
with Jessica Andrews, so hehad experienced it firsthand.
And so when he saw Taylor,he was like, oh, okay.
In the past, maybe the productwasn't quite right for the market.
Maybe Jessica Andrews wasn't quitethe right artist for that market.
(09:53):
But Taylor, since she was writing herown songs and they're very personal
and they're very much catered tothat teenage audience, he thought,
I think I have the right product
Daniel Rowles (10:04):
That, that talk of product and product fit.
I was reading the, the article,the interview did in Fortune
and this idea of job to be done.
Like she got the job to bedone with the music, what the
music needed to be, to deliver.
And I thought it'd be worth hearingfrom you about that a little bit.
Kevin Evers (10:18):
Yeah, it's such a great term.
I think of jobs to be done, I thinkof, you know, just imagine anytime you
buy a product, are we buying it theproduct because we love the product, yes.
But we're also hiring itto do something for us.
And Taylor has always understood thatpeople, her fans in particular are not.
(10:39):
Buying her music becausethey love the music.
I mean, that's a big partof it, don't get me wrong.
But they also want morefrom her and her music.
They want vulnerability.
They want connection,and they want intimacy.
And the fact that she was very strongfrom the very beginning that she
should be writing her own songs, theyshould be from her own perspective,
(11:00):
and that they should be geared toward.
Her peers, which at the time was teenagegirls, was critical to her success and it
continues to be critical to her success.
She, since she has such a clear ideaof what her fans are hiring her to
do, can evolve and adapt, and shecontinually makes music that is directly
catered to her fans' needs and wants.
(11:23):
But she's also able to buildexperiences that no one else has
really been able to copy this point.
And she's been doing this for the last20 years, and I think there's a big
reason why her fans stick around forso long and why she's able to bring
Daniel Rowles (11:40):
So there's a whole load of things I wanna bring up from that.
So that you talked about there aboutexperiences and this high, this idea
of there's this kind shared experienceby the fans and why the fans are
such a, a powerful kind of fan baseand are so passionate about things.
Can you talk about thatexperience piece a little bit?
Kevin Evers (11:54):
To me, Taylor has always understood that I.
Superstars aren't self-made.
They're a cultural phenomenon andthey're a fan generated phenomenon.
everything she does, right, Imean, she's in obsessively focused
on her craft, but she's alsoequally obsessive about her fans
the experiences, especially onsocial media, are pivotal or
(12:19):
are so important to her success.
And I think she's always shown that.
She understands that that's a hugepart in her popularity is her fans and
social influence and social connection.
you could see this with, with the Aristour, one of my favorite examples is
(12:41):
the, popularity of the live streams.
During the ERA story, there were somany fans who were at the show and they
would live stream, and it created thiswhole ecosystem on TikTok and Instagram
where you would have, you would havegatekeepers essentially, who were hosting
shows and would take live streams fromdifferent people and then spread those
(13:05):
on their accounts to other people.
They're acting as sort of acentral force where people could
congregate and watch the concerts.
That's something thatTaylor could have monetized.
made more than enough money duringthe Aris tour to streams to have
people pay for those streams.
And I'm sure her fans would'veshown up in droves to pay for
(13:28):
those live streams, but she didn't.
She let her fans take control of that,and because of that, those spread.
Her fans congregated online each night towatch the ERAS tour shows, saw a stat that
was pretty staggering that during the peakof the ERAS tour, day between 200 to 300
(13:52):
million videos of Taylor Swift reviewedand it's, I mean, it's, it's incredible
the, the scope of the, the fandom.
At that point.
And then if you combine that withpersonalized algorithms, videos are
getting, you know, they're being sentto all of our feeds, essentially.
If you've ever had any sort of interactionwith Taylor Swift content, you're probably
(14:15):
seeing some of that, of that content.
It's just another example of howTaylor understands that fans are
critical to her success, and itreminds me a lot of what the Grateful
Dead did when they encourage fans to.
Record their shows and share their showsbecause The Dead also realized that this
(14:35):
is all about fan community and the more wecan cater to our super fans, the better.
Daniel Rowles (14:42):
I think it's fascinating because if you look at her career,
in my mind you, oh, Taylor Swift.
Yes.
She's just, you know, she's obviouslygrown on social media 'cause she's
young and then you go, actually whenshe started it was MySpace still.
You know, this is, thishas been a long career.
Right.
And, and you can see that engagementof her fans has evolved over that
long kind of period of time and theevolved and of kind of social media.
Kevin Evers (15:00):
Yeah, and the, and the way she interacts on social media
has changed pretty dramatically.
the beginning on MySpace,an abundance of connection.
She was using those platforms every day tobuild those relationships with her fans.
that's not really the case.
not chronically online anymore yet itseems like engagement has increased.
(15:25):
So in the beginning, I'dsay there was this balance
between Abundancy and scarcity.
She would release analbum every two years.
the cycle.
then she would, she would go away and thenafter two years she'd release a new album.
So there's some scarcityin terms of the content.
She was really, you know, makingsure she wasn't oversaturated the
market with content, but thereis an abundance of connection.
(15:48):
She was constantly online.
it's switched.
the last four years, she'sreleased eight albums.
She's really turned onthe content fire host.
But when it comes to connection online,she's not really chronically online.
She's not really ever present online.
But I think a big reason for that is
(16:08):
her
fans take care
Daniel Rowles (16:09):
Right.
Kevin Evers (16:10):
for her.
of that scarcity, everything thatshe does, she wears something or
anytime she engages on social media.
It becomes a source of speculationand her fans are like, oh,
this must mean something.
This must mean something.
This must mean something.
then it, it spreads likewildfire because of TikTok.
And so it's this reallyinteresting change in her strategy.
(16:34):
Yet the more scarce she is, itseems like the more engagement
Daniel Rowles (16:40):
Well, I, I've noticed, but from the fact that the fans
would study, and you me mentionedthis when you were talking to
Fortune about the level of detail.
They'll go to the nuance of every word andevery song and what does it really mean?
And I think you compare itlike to TS Elliot being kind of
analyzed the, the, the lengthof, of effort that people go to.
Kevin Evers (16:56):
yeah, the, the fandom is really diverse in their interest.
one side of the fandom, you dohave people who do deep dives.
They're looking back at, at, um, you know.
Different, um, mythology to, tofigure out what her songs mean.
They're doing deep lyricalanalysis as if they're analyzing
(17:16):
ts, Elliot's, the Wasteland.
But then there's the other, the the morefun and wild part of the fandom that
true crime communities on Reddit, who.
Are really looking at clues andhints, which is something that
Taylor has taught them to do, um,which also increases engagement.
(17:37):
It, it's a pretty, it's a pretty wideranging fandom and it is full of very
passionate and in some cases, obsessive
Daniel Rowles (17:49):
and on that, I mean her, her ability to, um, pivot and to change.
I mean, if you look atsome of the, the big.
Kind of public relations crisis that shemight have had or the ability to, to pivot
with fans changing and so on as well.
How does that really kind ofdemonstrate her long-term success?
And, and it's some, someexamples that would be great.
Kevin Evers (18:10):
Yeah, I think it's critical.
Very early on in her career, shewas all about trust and consistency.
She didn't change that much.
She changed enough so her fans feltlike they were getting something
new but didn't change so muchthat she would alienate them.
But I think when she got to abouther fourth album, she realized,
Hey, I'm a teenager anymore.
I'm moving into my twenties.
(18:30):
And that can be a really toughtransition for a lot of artists.
I'm sure everyone listening can, canthink of a teenage artist that did not
sort of make it into their twenties.
Taylor at that point realized thatshe did have to make a change.
So even though she was reallydominating the country market, she
(18:52):
slowly transitioned into pop music.
And many people, especially music critics,said, oh, that, that's inevitable.
Of course, because her musicis becoming more and more pop.
Of course she's gonna move the pop.
a business standpoint, it didn'tmake a lot of sense for her to leave
country music behind because she had,she was doing what a lot of brands,
a lot of companies would kill for.
(19:13):
She had dominated one market and thenshe had slowly infiltrated another one.
She could have her cake and eat it too,but by moving to pop music, she was
completely leaving behind country music.
She was leaving behind allof those relationships.
I. I think she understood thatshe needed to make a pivot.
She needed to change, especially becauseher own musical tastes were changing.
(19:35):
she received a lot of pushback fromher management team and her record
label, she said, I'm, I'm not gonnaput three country songs on this album.
This album was 1989, in 2014.
She remained persistent about it.
She's like, I'm not doing it.
My fan.
They're gonna see right through this.
This will be inauthentic.
(19:57):
And I think a big reason why she'sable to make these pivots while
staying true to her core values she'sin full control of what she's doing.
She's not one of these artists thatshop for hits or shop for producers.
She's in full control.
She's writing the songs, they're allcoming from her personal experience, and
this goes back to the job to be done.
(20:17):
She really understands what herfans need and want from her.
And it's all about thatintimacy and connection.
So if you look behind the hits andyou listen to the deep cuts on the
albums, that's what they're getting.
They're getting reallyhyper personalized songs.
And it doesn't matter if she'ssinging pop music or if it's
indie rock or if it's country.
core value, that job to be done remains
Daniel Rowles (20:41):
there's interesting there as well about that core value
and then talking about how she'snavigated the music industry as well.
'cause if you go back to heroriginal recordings being purchased
and then I think this was justafter the book was finished when
actually, um, she's brought back therights to all of her work as well.
I mean, a lot of people, this won'tbe familiar, so maybe just talk about
that narrative and then actuallywhat we can maybe learn from that.
Kevin Evers (21:02):
I love this story.
I love this power move on her partbecause it really shows Taylor Swift is.
I think a lot of people look at her andthey see the sequins, the glitter, the
Louboutin boots, and can't look past that.
in music we tend to hold in highregard our transgressive rock
(21:23):
stars or transgressive pop stars,whether it's Bob Dylan or Madonna.
Taylor Swift from the outsidedoesn't look like that.
She looks like she's notchallenging the status quo.
She looks like she is the status quo,but her decision to rerecord her older
music was a really punk rock move, andit's really one of the most punk rock
moves in music history in my mind.
(21:44):
She had no control over who hermaster recordings were sold to her.
Scott Beta ended up selling his labelalong with her masters to a man named
Scooter Braun, and Taylor was not happywith that for a whole host of reasons,
and she made no money on that deal.
She still received royaltieswhen those songs were streamed,
(22:04):
but received no money from.
From that deal, and she always wantedto own her own master recordings, but
wasn't really given the chance or didn'treally feel like she could do that.
So once they were sold, she had noleverage in this situation, even
though she's a huge superstar, shehad signed a contract when she was 15.
She had no legal recourse.
(22:25):
So what does she do?
She decides, I wanna reclaimownership of that work, I'll
just rerecord those albums.
Which is a wild idea.
This is something that Prince hadthreatened to do in the nineties.
He had a famous battle with WarnerBrothers, but he never followed
through because on paper it seemsreally odd to ask your fans to not
(22:45):
listen to the music they had grown up.
Listening to the music that'sso intertwined in their own
memories and experiences.
But because Taylor has such a greatrelationship with her fans and
she's so good at framing things.
For her fans and talking about howthese things mean so much to her
personally, fans went along with it.
(23:07):
So those re-recording calledTaylor versions did exactly
what she wanted them to do.
They did diminish the valueof her original recordings.
They all went to number oneon the billboard charts.
They're all hits those tailor versions.
Were streamed more frequently thanthe older versions people were buying
(23:32):
them at a fast clip more than theywere buying the, the older music.
And then, I mean, the big surpriseis when she actually bought
back her original recordings.
'cause she had spent all thistime, all this energy diminishing
their value and asking her fansto go along with her on this ride.
Which they did, and then shebuys back the recordings.
(23:54):
it's also a pretty, a prettyballsy power move because she
did do what she wanted to do.
She diminished their value and thenjust bought them back because once
those recordings had changed handsmultiple times, they ended up with a,
um, a firm called Shamrock Capital.
(24:16):
And because Taylor didthese tailored versions.
who, if they wanted to offload thoseassets, who were they gonna sell 'em to?
Like no one would want those assets.
The only one who could really buythem back was Taylor Swift herself.
And that's because shemade the Taylor versions.
So for me, this will go downas one of the most fascinating.
(24:36):
Power struggles in music industry history,and there were a lot of winners here.
Don't get me wrong, Scott Beta madehundreds of millions of dollars.
Scooter Braun made hundreds of millionsof dollars when he offloaded those assets
to Shamrock and Shamrock, by all accounts,recouped their initial investment and
did receive royalties on recordings.
But I think Taylor Swift is
Daniel Rowles (24:59):
So with, with that in mind, I mean, you know, from a brand
management, personal storytelling pointof view, that's a phenomenal narrative
that's running in the backgroundbehind all this authenticity as well.
Why is it then you think that if youlook at her success, if you look at, um,
I. The battles that she's gone through.
And she's proven herself.
She's shown everyone who'sboss, she's been driven.
Why is she, is she not comparedto the Beatles or Elvis or someone
(25:22):
else like that, um, as well.
And there were some people thatwere before that go, well, she's
not, but why is that the case?
Kevin Evers (25:27):
There are a lot of reasons
for that.
Daniel Rowles (25:30):
I.
Kevin Evers (25:30):
a big reason, like let's be honest, it's because of the artist she
is and the audience she's singing to.
The fact that she's, especially veryearly on in her career, since she
started as a teenager and was singing toteenager girls, I. That's not an audience
that many people take that seriously.
I mean, it even happened to theBeatles early on, the fact that
(25:52):
they were singing to teenage girls.
I mean, think of the term Beatle mania.
That wasn't necessarilya term of endearment.
It was if these teenage girlsweren't, weren't rational, or
weren't thinking, or weren't serious,they're just driven by emotion.
But of course, we're all driven byemotion when we listen to music.
I think that's a, that's a big part of it.
I don't think she's taking,I don't, I think in some.
(26:15):
Corners of the internet andsome corners of music business.
She's not necessarilytaking that, that seriously.
People really hold her in high regardas a business person, but maybe they
don't think that she's a great musician.
I completely disagree with that.
I think she, I. She is fulfillinga need that no one else is
really fulfilling for her fans.
And I think she's a greatlyricist and a great songwriter.
(26:38):
So I think that all has, hassomething to do with it in my mind.
She does belong in that group.
I think she belongs amongpantheon of music legends.
Those music legends that aregreat musically, but also turned
into cultural phenomenons.
So that's The Beatles, MichaelJackson, that's Elvis, that's Madonna.
(26:59):
Because if you think about it, she isoperating industry that those other
four artists weren't operating in.
The music industry today is, I don'teven think this is debatable, is a much
more difficult industry to, to navigate.
The Beatles are operating in a moreor less monocultural environment
(27:22):
and they did an amazing job of,of navigating that environment.
But music today has splinteredinto millions of niches.
We've gone from digital to streaming.
There's been a lot of disruptionand change, and Taylor has been
able to turn those challengesinto opportunities and she's more
popular now than she's ever been.
(27:44):
The he is tour $2 billion highestgrossing tour of all time.
I really think that Taylordeserves her flowers.
I know she receives a lot ofbreathless praise, but she also
receives a lot of unwarrantedcriticism, and even though she's only
35 years old, I would definitely put
Daniel Rowles (28:04):
I was just gonna add to that as well,
because she's still so young.
There's, there's a lot still to come andthere's a lot still to happen as well.
I mean, what, what would you kindof, if you had to predict where you
think it's going next and what she'sdoing next, where would you, where
would you kind of look at that?
I.
Kevin Evers (28:16):
I would say
I don't think she'll stop making music.
You imagine.
I, I try to put myself in her shoesLou Vuitton boots after the Aris
tour, the last eras tour show.
I mean, could you imaginewhat she was feeling?
It had to be exhilarating, but it alsohad to be daunting at the same time.
Like, how do you, how do you top that?
(28:38):
And she's had other peaksin her career that didn't.
Feel like she'd be able totop it, but here she is.
She already topped it.
Whatever she does next willbe completely different than
what she did with the A tour.
This is what she's always done well.
She's always adapted and shealways makes music first decisions.
She makes decisions that are basedon what she wants to do musically,
and then the strategies come second.
(28:59):
She has a reputation for being verycalculated, but I don't see her like that.
I really feel like she's more ofwhat is my muse telling me to do?
I'm gonna go where the music takes meand then I'll come up with all these,
Daniel Rowles (29:13):
Well, there was a great quote from, wasn't that she said that
if a man does something, it's strategic.
If a woman does it, it's calculated.
And, and, and she does very much seemto be working on a, a kind of, um, a gut
instinct that she has with things as well.
So there's, look, there's a hugeamount of lessons in the book
for marketers and entrepreneurs.
I mean, what's something specificallythat people can action when they've, when
they've kind of read the book, do youthink that they can kind of take away.
Kevin Evers (29:34):
Be as obsessed with your customers as your product.
This is what Taylor has always done this.
Her first manager told her, Hey, ifyou wanna be a superstar, you need to
meet hundreds of thousands of people.
And Taylor goes above and beyond for.
Her fans, I mean, she's completelyobsessed with her fans and she'll
(29:54):
find new ways to delight her fans.
The Aris tour is a great example.
She could have played twohours of her greatest hit show.
Her fans would've walked awayjoyous, but she played three and a
half hours set less span, 40 songs,and that comes from a place of.
Of obsession.
Yes, but also humility.
And she really knows that thedriver of her success is her songs.
(30:19):
Yes.
But it's really her fans that reallysort of drive social influence and
create more fans and create moreengagement and more connection.
So the one thing I would say, especiallyfor entrepreneurs is need to be
as obsessed with your customers as
Daniel Rowles (30:38):
So we will put the link to the book.
There's nothing likethis in the show notes.
Target internet.com/podcast.
We'll link through to Kevin's,LinkedIn buyer as well.
You can see all the different things thathe's up to in there and so on as well.
Well, Kevin, thank you so muchfor being so generous with, for
your time with being here today.
And it's been a realpleasure to talk to you.
Kevin Evers (30:54):
Yeah.
Thanks so much for having me.
For more episodes, resources toleave a review or to get in contact,
go to target internet.com/podcast.
Welcome back to the DigitalMarketing Podcast, brought to
you by target internet.com.
My name's Daniel Rolls, and in thisepisode we are talking branding strategy.
And believe it or not, Taylor Swift.
(00:22):
So we get reached out to every day bylots and lots of people that would like
to either be featured on the podcast orto get someone featured on the podcast.
We have a lot of PR companies reachout to us, and I had one of the most
intriguing outreaches I've ever had.
Uh, somebody reached out and said,would you like to speak to Kevin Evers?
Uh, because Kevin has written a bookcalled, there's nothing like this now.
(00:45):
Kevin is, an editor atHarvard Business Review.
Has got a long history of workingwith some very interesting business
titles of projects, but basicallyhe's written a book that says, what's
the strategic genius of Taylor Swift?
You heard it, right?
So basically looking at TaylorSwift's career and saying,
(01:07):
why is she so successful?
What are the clever moves that she's made?
What is the strategythat she's implemented?
What are the plans that she's madethat have made her so globally,
hugely, hugely successful?
And actually, the more I read, the morefascinated I was because actually there's
a load of actionable lessons in here.
And a lot of the things that wetalk about in marketing strategy.
Really you started to resonateas I walked through the book.
(01:31):
Kevin is a very knowledgeable, verywell prepped, very highly researched
guy who really knows his topic as well,and has obviously put a huge amount
of work and effort into the book.
So it's a fascinating interview.
There's loads of practical insights there.
If you're not a Taylor Swift fan,if you're not a swifty, don't worry.
I wasn't a swifty going intothis, but I was very, very
(01:52):
impressed and I learned a lot.
So over to the interview.
Daniel Rowles (01:57):
tell us a little bit about who you are and, that that'll
give us some context going forwards.
Kevin Evers (02:02):
I am Kevin.
I am a senior editor at HBR.
I work predominantly onthe book side of the house.
means I acquire and I edit books, workwith authors, helping them shape their
ideas and to position their books inthe marketplace for optimal success.
I, I always have a joke.
I edit everything but cookbooksand fiction, it seems.
(02:25):
I've edited books andinnovation, creativity, high
performance finance, you name it.
I've edited a book on it and.
I'm a bit of a Renaissance man 'causeI, I, I know all of these subjects
and I get to work with great authorsand I get to work on great books
and that has also helped me in myown writing because I've been able
to use all of this vast knowledgeand apply it to different subjects
Daniel Rowles (02:50):
So what really inspired you to write about this?
Because my take on this the PRcompanies reach out and say, oh,
this amazing book's come out, wouldyou like to, to have the author on?
And we get a lot of them.
And I was like, oh, this really caughtmy attention because as someone.
It's not Swifty, but he's veryaware of, of Taylor Swift.
But I've heard from a thousandpeople, oh, why is she so successful?
I don't really get it becausethey're not the target audience.
(03:12):
I was really interested to hearwhat kind of inspired you in the
first place to start writing.
Kevin Evers (03:15):
I know I get this question a lot, especially since I'm an HBR editor.
People are like, why are you spendingso much time writing about Taylor Swift?
Shouldn't you be writing about, you know,some other company or some other brand?
That's what attracted me to Taylor tobegin with, because she's operating in
an industry that's super brutal, likethe musicing industry is really fickle.
It's really brutish.
(03:36):
We tend to cycle throughartists, stars, even superstars
if there are fashion trends.
And Taylor's been doing thisfor 20 years, and she's more
popular now than she's ever been.
She's reached this Beatlesesque phenomenon, this cultural
phenomenon at this point.
So I wanted to pull back and figureout how she's been able to do it,
and the more I look into her career.
The more I realized that this couldbe a great entertaining book because
(04:00):
she's had so many ups and downs.
She's gone through so many controversiesand there is so much business that
I could project onto her career,and that's what excited me the most.
I love how you used that word,human-centric, because I really felt like
I could write a very human book and Icould write it in chronological order.
(04:20):
We could show her from the timeshe's 14, 15 years old, all the way
up to current day 35 and go throughevery major part of her career and
look at the decisions that she made.
And that's pretty rare tohave the opportunity to do
Daniel Rowles (04:35):
I mean the, the amount of research that I've got into the
book is, is clear from the outset.
'cause you get into it at the beginningand it's talking about her being like 13,
14 years old and this kind of vision thatshe had for, for what she was going to be.
And I thought that was really interesting.
It's like that clarity of visionseemed to get her to cut through
and get her a lot of respect there,which she wouldn't got otherwise.
So it'd be great to hearabout, hear about that.
Kevin Evers (04:56):
This is what surprised me the most because we normally don't
think of a 13, 14, 15-year-old ashaving a very clear vision of who
they are and, and the audience theywanna hit, especially an artist.
really did.
She knew that she wantedto write her own songs.
That was a strength of hers.
And that's not necessarily, orat least at the time, wasn't
common in the country Music.
(05:18):
Usually it's professionalsongwriters who do that,
especially if you're a teen artist.
Teen artists were not writing theirown songs, she wanted to write
those songs for an audience of herpeers, and that was teenage girls.
The consensus in the industry was,I think you need to slow down a bit.
That's there's not really a market forteenage girls and they, those executives
were, were right in many aspects.
(05:40):
They had the data and they had thefailed experiences to back that up.
But Taylor was really persistent.
She knew that.
Her friends were listening to countrymusic and she knew that her friends were
resonating with her music, and I don't,if she didn't have such a clear vision,
not sure we'd be talking about TaylorSwift today because she probably would've
(06:02):
waited until she was 18, 19 to release analbum and she may have missed her window.
what happened is, and think shewas reading Blue Ocean Strategy,
I don't think she was reading HBR.
Or other magazines to figure out,oh, what should my strategy be?
But I think she instinctually knew thatthere was a market that the industry
(06:23):
was blind to and that she could hit thatmarket, and she ended up doing that.
So she ended up seizing an opportunitythat other people had ignored, and
because of that, that was a big reasonwhy she found early success in country
Daniel Rowles (06:35):
I mean that clarity of vision piece in terms
of, you know, the record label.
I just remember reading the first chapter,I think it was the first chapter where
they were talking about she'd left thatrecord label, although they started
nurturing her 'cause they wanted to kindof build her up and maybe wouldn't kind
of push her forward till she was 18.
strong enough at the age of1314, to have the boldness to
do that is quite exceptional.
I.
Kevin Evers (06:52):
Her vision enabled her to make some bold decisions That
on paper seemed pretty wild to do.
you're right, she had adevelopment deal with RCA Records.
RCA was one of the biggest labelson Nashville's music Row at the
time, and they were developing her.
Then after a year.
As part of those developmentdeals, the label has a choice.
(07:12):
They can sign you to a record deal,they can cut you loose, they'll
extend your development deal.
And they wanted to extend Taylor, butthey also intimated that, you know,
maybe you should write some otherpeople's songs or maybe you should
perform some other people's songs.
Taylor was getting the hints that maybethey didn't quite believe in her vision.
And what she ended up doing, she endedup signing with a man named Scott Beta.
(07:35):
Who was a promotions guy, a universallabel group, but he had left his
label or was in the process of leavinghis label to start his own label.
It ended up being called Big MachineRecords, and that was a pretty
wild move 'cause he didn't havefunding, didn't have headquarters,
he didn't have a name for his label.
He believed in her vision.
(07:56):
He said, I'm never gonna tell you towrite or perform someone else's songs.
Taylor believed in him and that ended upbeing a great decision for her because
Scott had a lot of skin in the game.
He really needed Taylor Swift to succeed.
there are so many challenges and becausethe industry, especially the gatekeepers
like record but also the people in radio,since they didn't believe that a teenage
(08:20):
girl could find success at this time.
She really needed someone who couldpush through and come up with creative
ideas to promote her her work,
Daniel Rowles (08:31):
I mean, there's some real parallels there with like the startup
culture, of starting from nothing andjust having that clear vision to do
that and, and how that label did that.
But also, if we go back to your commenta moment ago in terms of the data wasn't
there to back up, there was a demand for.
The music for that particular teenageaudience, it's kinda like Steve Jobs.
There was a bit of a Steve Job desk thingof like, well, we, we need this thing.
They dunno they want it,but we're gonna create it.
(08:53):
And I, you drew that parallel betweenactually a lot of the things that she did.
She didn't look it up and abutch did it instinctively.
But that's, that's similar to thoseother kind of great, um, founders and
startup growers that we talk about.
Kevin Evers (09:05):
for sure.
And it was also great that shehad Scott Becetta in her, in her
corner too, because had sensed.
That there was a market for this.
He had promoted and worked withan artist called Jessica Andrews.
She was a teenager.
This was years before, and Jessica Andrewsdidn't really take off, but they did do a
grassroots campaign where they would bringher to high schools and she would perform
(09:29):
and he could feel the energy in the room.
He could feel that the teenagersin the room were really resonating
with Jessica Andrews, so hehad experienced it firsthand.
And so when he saw Taylor,he was like, oh, okay.
In the past, maybe the productwasn't quite right for the market.
Maybe Jessica Andrews wasn't quitethe right artist for that market.
(09:53):
But Taylor, since she was writing herown songs and they're very personal
and they're very much catered tothat teenage audience, he thought,
I think I have the right product
Daniel Rowles (10:04):
That, that talk of product and product fit.
I was reading the, the article,the interview did in Fortune
and this idea of job to be done.
Like she got the job to bedone with the music, what the
music needed to be, to deliver.
And I thought it'd be worth hearingfrom you about that a little bit.
Kevin Evers (10:18):
Yeah, it's such a great term.
I think of jobs to be done, I thinkof, you know, just imagine anytime you
buy a product, are we buying it theproduct because we love the product, yes.
But we're also hiring itto do something for us.
And Taylor has always understood thatpeople, her fans in particular are not.
(10:39):
Buying her music becausethey love the music.
I mean, that's a big partof it, don't get me wrong.
But they also want morefrom her and her music.
They want vulnerability.
They want connection,and they want intimacy.
And the fact that she was very strongfrom the very beginning that she
should be writing her own songs, theyshould be from her own perspective,
(11:00):
and that they should be geared toward.
Her peers, which at the time was teenagegirls, was critical to her success and it
continues to be critical to her success.
She, since she has such a clear ideaof what her fans are hiring her to
do, can evolve and adapt, and shecontinually makes music that is directly
catered to her fans' needs and wants.
(11:23):
But she's also able to buildexperiences that no one else has
really been able to copy this point.
And she's been doing this for the last20 years, and I think there's a big
reason why her fans stick around forso long and why she's able to bring
Daniel Rowles (11:40):
So there's a whole load of things I wanna bring up from that.
So that you talked about there aboutexperiences and this high, this idea
of there's this kind shared experienceby the fans and why the fans are
such a, a powerful kind of fan baseand are so passionate about things.
Can you talk about thatexperience piece a little bit?
Kevin Evers (11:54):
To me, Taylor has always understood that I.
Superstars aren't self-made.
They're a cultural phenomenon andthey're a fan generated phenomenon.
everything she does, right, Imean, she's in obsessively focused
on her craft, but she's alsoequally obsessive about her fans
the experiences, especially onsocial media, are pivotal or
(12:19):
are so important to her success.
And I think she's always shown that.
She understands that that's a hugepart in her popularity is her fans and
social influence and social connection.
you could see this with, with the Aristour, one of my favorite examples is
(12:41):
the, popularity of the live streams.
During the ERA story, there were somany fans who were at the show and they
would live stream, and it created thiswhole ecosystem on TikTok and Instagram
where you would have, you would havegatekeepers essentially, who were hosting
shows and would take live streams fromdifferent people and then spread those
(13:05):
on their accounts to other people.
They're acting as sort of acentral force where people could
congregate and watch the concerts.
That's something thatTaylor could have monetized.
made more than enough money duringthe Aris tour to streams to have
people pay for those streams.
And I'm sure her fans would'veshown up in droves to pay for
(13:28):
those live streams, but she didn't.
She let her fans take control of that,and because of that, those spread.
Her fans congregated online each night towatch the ERAS tour shows, saw a stat that
was pretty staggering that during the peakof the ERAS tour, day between 200 to 300
(13:52):
million videos of Taylor Swift reviewedand it's, I mean, it's, it's incredible
the, the scope of the, the fandom.
At that point.
And then if you combine that withpersonalized algorithms, videos are
getting, you know, they're being sentto all of our feeds, essentially.
If you've ever had any sort of interactionwith Taylor Swift content, you're probably
(14:15):
seeing some of that, of that content.
It's just another example of howTaylor understands that fans are
critical to her success, and itreminds me a lot of what the Grateful
Dead did when they encourage fans to.
Record their shows and share their showsbecause The Dead also realized that this
(14:35):
is all about fan community and the more wecan cater to our super fans, the better.
Daniel Rowles (14:42):
I think it's fascinating because if you look at her career,
in my mind you, oh, Taylor Swift.
Yes.
She's just, you know, she's obviouslygrown on social media 'cause she's
young and then you go, actually whenshe started it was MySpace still.
You know, this is, thishas been a long career.
Right.
And, and you can see that engagementof her fans has evolved over that
long kind of period of time and theevolved and of kind of social media.
Kevin Evers (15:00):
Yeah, and the, and the way she interacts on social media
has changed pretty dramatically.
the beginning on MySpace,an abundance of connection.
She was using those platforms every day tobuild those relationships with her fans.
that's not really the case.
not chronically online anymore yet itseems like engagement has increased.
(15:25):
So in the beginning, I'dsay there was this balance
between Abundancy and scarcity.
She would release analbum every two years.
the cycle.
then she would, she would go away and thenafter two years she'd release a new album.
So there's some scarcityin terms of the content.
She was really, you know, makingsure she wasn't oversaturated the
market with content, but thereis an abundance of connection.
(15:48):
She was constantly online.
it's switched.
the last four years, she'sreleased eight albums.
She's really turned onthe content fire host.
But when it comes to connection online,she's not really chronically online.
She's not really ever present online.
But I think a big reason for that is
(16:08):
her
fans take care
Daniel Rowles (16:09):
Right.
Kevin Evers (16:10):
for her.
of that scarcity, everything thatshe does, she wears something or
anytime she engages on social media.
It becomes a source of speculationand her fans are like, oh,
this must mean something.
This must mean something.
This must mean something.
then it, it spreads likewildfire because of TikTok.
And so it's this reallyinteresting change in her strategy.
(16:34):
Yet the more scarce she is, itseems like the more engagement
Daniel Rowles (16:40):
Well, I, I've noticed, but from the fact that the fans
would study, and you me mentionedthis when you were talking to
Fortune about the level of detail.
They'll go to the nuance of every word andevery song and what does it really mean?
And I think you compare itlike to TS Elliot being kind of
analyzed the, the, the lengthof, of effort that people go to.
Kevin Evers (16:56):
yeah, the, the fandom is really diverse in their interest.
one side of the fandom, you dohave people who do deep dives.
They're looking back at, at, um, you know.
Different, um, mythology to, tofigure out what her songs mean.
They're doing deep lyricalanalysis as if they're analyzing
(17:16):
ts, Elliot's, the Wasteland.
But then there's the other, the the morefun and wild part of the fandom that
true crime communities on Reddit, who.
Are really looking at clues andhints, which is something that
Taylor has taught them to do, um,which also increases engagement.
(17:37):
It, it's a pretty, it's a pretty wideranging fandom and it is full of very
passionate and in some cases, obsessive
Daniel Rowles (17:49):
and on that, I mean her, her ability to, um, pivot and to change.
I mean, if you look atsome of the, the big.
Kind of public relations crisis that shemight have had or the ability to, to pivot
with fans changing and so on as well.
How does that really kind ofdemonstrate her long-term success?
And, and it's some, someexamples that would be great.
Kevin Evers (18:10):
Yeah, I think it's critical.
Very early on in her career, shewas all about trust and consistency.
She didn't change that much.
She changed enough so her fans feltlike they were getting something
new but didn't change so muchthat she would alienate them.
But I think when she got to abouther fourth album, she realized,
Hey, I'm a teenager anymore.
I'm moving into my twenties.
(18:30):
And that can be a really toughtransition for a lot of artists.
I'm sure everyone listening can, canthink of a teenage artist that did not
sort of make it into their twenties.
Taylor at that point realized thatshe did have to make a change.
So even though she was reallydominating the country market, she
(18:52):
slowly transitioned into pop music.
And many people, especially music critics,said, oh, that, that's inevitable.
Of course, because her musicis becoming more and more pop.
Of course she's gonna move the pop.
a business standpoint, it didn'tmake a lot of sense for her to leave
country music behind because she had,she was doing what a lot of brands,
a lot of companies would kill for.
(19:13):
She had dominated one market and thenshe had slowly infiltrated another one.
She could have her cake and eat it too,but by moving to pop music, she was
completely leaving behind country music.
She was leaving behind allof those relationships.
I. I think she understood thatshe needed to make a pivot.
She needed to change, especially becauseher own musical tastes were changing.
(19:35):
she received a lot of pushback fromher management team and her record
label, she said, I'm, I'm not gonnaput three country songs on this album.
This album was 1989, in 2014.
She remained persistent about it.
She's like, I'm not doing it.
My fan.
They're gonna see right through this.
This will be inauthentic.
(19:57):
And I think a big reason why she'sable to make these pivots while
staying true to her core values she'sin full control of what she's doing.
She's not one of these artists thatshop for hits or shop for producers.
She's in full control.
She's writing the songs, they're allcoming from her personal experience, and
this goes back to the job to be done.
(20:17):
She really understands what herfans need and want from her.
And it's all about thatintimacy and connection.
So if you look behind the hits andyou listen to the deep cuts on the
albums, that's what they're getting.
They're getting reallyhyper personalized songs.
And it doesn't matter if she'ssinging pop music or if it's
indie rock or if it's country.
core value, that job to be done remains
Daniel Rowles (20:41):
there's interesting there as well about that core value
and then talking about how she'snavigated the music industry as well.
'cause if you go back to heroriginal recordings being purchased
and then I think this was justafter the book was finished when
actually, um, she's brought back therights to all of her work as well.
I mean, a lot of people, this won'tbe familiar, so maybe just talk about
that narrative and then actuallywhat we can maybe learn from that.
Kevin Evers (21:02):
I love this story.
I love this power move on her partbecause it really shows Taylor Swift is.
I think a lot of people look at her andthey see the sequins, the glitter, the
Louboutin boots, and can't look past that.
in music we tend to hold in highregard our transgressive rock
(21:23):
stars or transgressive pop stars,whether it's Bob Dylan or Madonna.
Taylor Swift from the outsidedoesn't look like that.
She looks like she's notchallenging the status quo.
She looks like she is the status quo,but her decision to rerecord her older
music was a really punk rock move, andit's really one of the most punk rock
moves in music history in my mind.
(21:44):
She had no control over who hermaster recordings were sold to her.
Scott Beta ended up selling his labelalong with her masters to a man named
Scooter Braun, and Taylor was not happywith that for a whole host of reasons,
and she made no money on that deal.
She still received royaltieswhen those songs were streamed,
(22:04):
but received no money from.
From that deal, and she always wantedto own her own master recordings, but
wasn't really given the chance or didn'treally feel like she could do that.
So once they were sold, she had noleverage in this situation, even
though she's a huge superstar, shehad signed a contract when she was 15.
She had no legal recourse.
(22:25):
So what does she do?
She decides, I wanna reclaimownership of that work, I'll
just rerecord those albums.
Which is a wild idea.
This is something that Prince hadthreatened to do in the nineties.
He had a famous battle with WarnerBrothers, but he never followed
through because on paper it seemsreally odd to ask your fans to not
(22:45):
listen to the music they had grown up.
Listening to the music that'sso intertwined in their own
memories and experiences.
But because Taylor has such a greatrelationship with her fans and
she's so good at framing things.
For her fans and talking about howthese things mean so much to her
personally, fans went along with it.
(23:07):
So those re-recording calledTaylor versions did exactly
what she wanted them to do.
They did diminish the valueof her original recordings.
They all went to number oneon the billboard charts.
They're all hits those tailor versions.
Were streamed more frequently thanthe older versions people were buying
(23:32):
them at a fast clip more than theywere buying the, the older music.
And then, I mean, the big surpriseis when she actually bought
back her original recordings.
'cause she had spent all thistime, all this energy diminishing
their value and asking her fansto go along with her on this ride.
Which they did, and then shebuys back the recordings.
(23:54):
it's also a pretty, a prettyballsy power move because she
did do what she wanted to do.
She diminished their value and thenjust bought them back because once
those recordings had changed handsmultiple times, they ended up with a,
um, a firm called Shamrock Capital.
(24:16):
And because Taylor didthese tailored versions.
who, if they wanted to offload thoseassets, who were they gonna sell 'em to?
Like no one would want those assets.
The only one who could really buythem back was Taylor Swift herself.
And that's because shemade the Taylor versions.
So for me, this will go downas one of the most fascinating.
(24:36):
Power struggles in music industry history,and there were a lot of winners here.
Don't get me wrong, Scott Beta madehundreds of millions of dollars.
Scooter Braun made hundreds of millionsof dollars when he offloaded those assets
to Shamrock and Shamrock, by all accounts,recouped their initial investment and
did receive royalties on recordings.
But I think Taylor Swift is
Daniel Rowles (24:59):
So with, with that in mind, I mean, you know, from a brand
management, personal storytelling pointof view, that's a phenomenal narrative
that's running in the backgroundbehind all this authenticity as well.
Why is it then you think that if youlook at her success, if you look at, um,
I. The battles that she's gone through.
And she's proven herself.
She's shown everyone who'sboss, she's been driven.
Why is she, is she not comparedto the Beatles or Elvis or someone
(25:22):
else like that, um, as well.
And there were some people thatwere before that go, well, she's
not, but why is that the case?
Kevin Evers (25:27):
There are a lot of reasons
for that.
Daniel Rowles (25:30):
I.
Kevin Evers (25:30):
a big reason, like let's be honest, it's because of the artist she
is and the audience she's singing to.
The fact that she's, especially veryearly on in her career, since she
started as a teenager and was singing toteenager girls, I. That's not an audience
that many people take that seriously.
I mean, it even happened to theBeatles early on, the fact that
(25:52):
they were singing to teenage girls.
I mean, think of the term Beatle mania.
That wasn't necessarilya term of endearment.
It was if these teenage girlsweren't, weren't rational, or
weren't thinking, or weren't serious,they're just driven by emotion.
But of course, we're all driven byemotion when we listen to music.
I think that's a, that's a big part of it.
I don't think she's taking,I don't, I think in some.
(26:15):
Corners of the internet andsome corners of music business.
She's not necessarilytaking that, that seriously.
People really hold her in high regardas a business person, but maybe they
don't think that she's a great musician.
I completely disagree with that.
I think she, I. She is fulfillinga need that no one else is
really fulfilling for her fans.
And I think she's a greatlyricist and a great songwriter.
(26:38):
So I think that all has, hassomething to do with it in my mind.
She does belong in that group.
I think she belongs amongpantheon of music legends.
Those music legends that aregreat musically, but also turned
into cultural phenomenons.
So that's The Beatles, MichaelJackson, that's Elvis, that's Madonna.
(26:59):
Because if you think about it, she isoperating industry that those other
four artists weren't operating in.
The music industry today is, I don'teven think this is debatable, is a much
more difficult industry to, to navigate.
The Beatles are operating in a moreor less monocultural environment
(27:22):
and they did an amazing job of,of navigating that environment.
But music today has splinteredinto millions of niches.
We've gone from digital to streaming.
There's been a lot of disruptionand change, and Taylor has been
able to turn those challengesinto opportunities and she's more
popular now than she's ever been.
(27:44):
The he is tour $2 billion highestgrossing tour of all time.
I really think that Taylordeserves her flowers.
I know she receives a lot ofbreathless praise, but she also
receives a lot of unwarrantedcriticism, and even though she's only
35 years old, I would definitely put
Daniel Rowles (28:04):
I was just gonna add to that as well,
because she's still so young.
There's, there's a lot still to come andthere's a lot still to happen as well.
I mean, what, what would you kindof, if you had to predict where you
think it's going next and what she'sdoing next, where would you, where
would you kind of look at that?
I.
Kevin Evers (28:16):
I would say
I don't think she'll stop making music.
You imagine.
I, I try to put myself in her shoesLou Vuitton boots after the Aris
tour, the last eras tour show.
I mean, could you imaginewhat she was feeling?
It had to be exhilarating, but it alsohad to be daunting at the same time.
Like, how do you, how do you top that?
(28:38):
And she's had other peaksin her career that didn't.
Feel like she'd be able totop it, but here she is.
She already topped it.
Whatever she does next willbe completely different than
what she did with the A tour.
This is what she's always done well.
She's always adapted and shealways makes music first decisions.
She makes decisions that are basedon what she wants to do musically,
and then the strategies come second.
(28:59):
She has a reputation for being verycalculated, but I don't see her like that.
I really feel like she's more ofwhat is my muse telling me to do?
I'm gonna go where the music takes meand then I'll come up with all these,
Daniel Rowles (29:13):
Well, there was a great quote from, wasn't that she said that
if a man does something, it's strategic.
If a woman does it, it's calculated.
And, and, and she does very much seemto be working on a, a kind of, um, a gut
instinct that she has with things as well.
So there's, look, there's a hugeamount of lessons in the book
for marketers and entrepreneurs.
I mean, what's something specificallythat people can action when they've, when
they've kind of read the book, do youthink that they can kind of take away.
Kevin Evers (29:34):
Be as obsessed with your customers as your product.
This is what Taylor has always done this.
Her first manager told her, Hey, ifyou wanna be a superstar, you need to
meet hundreds of thousands of people.
And Taylor goes above and beyond for.
Her fans, I mean, she's completelyobsessed with her fans and she'll
(29:54):
find new ways to delight her fans.
The Aris tour is a great example.
She could have played twohours of her greatest hit show.
Her fans would've walked awayjoyous, but she played three and a
half hours set less span, 40 songs,and that comes from a place of.
Of obsession.
Yes, but also humility.
And she really knows that thedriver of her success is her songs.
(30:19):
Yes.
But it's really her fans that reallysort of drive social influence and
create more fans and create moreengagement and more connection.
So the one thing I would say, especiallyfor entrepreneurs is need to be
as obsessed with your customers as
Daniel Rowles (30:38):
So we will put the link to the book.
There's nothing likethis in the show notes.
Target internet.com/podcast.
We'll link through to Kevin's,LinkedIn buyer as well.
You can see all the different things thathe's up to in there and so on as well.
Well, Kevin, thank you so muchfor being so generous with, for
your time with being here today.
And it's been a realpleasure to talk to you.
Kevin Evers (30:54):
Yeah.
Thanks so much for having me.
For more episodes, resources toleave a review or to get in contact,
go to target internet.com/podcast.
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