July 11, 2025 • 26 mins
In this episode of The Digital Marketing Podcast, Daniel Rowles is joined by Brendan Kane, viral strategist and author of One Million Followers, for a deep dive into the art and science of making content go viral. Going viral often feels like marketing mythology,something bosses ask for, but few can explain or deliver. Brendan, however, has built a career proving that virality isn’t luck. It’s repeatable, measurable, and rooted in storytelling structures that have worked for decades. Brendan shares the behind-the-scenes thinking that led to his experiment growing an audience of 1 million followers in 30 days, starting from scratch, without a team, celebrity status, or advertising budget. More than a vanity metric, the project was a proof-of-concept for a framework that now helps brands, creators, and entrepreneurs reliably generate massive reach and meaningful engagement. In this episode, you’ll learn: Why qualitative analysis - not just views and clicks, holds the key to repeatable success The power of storytelling formats like “Man on the Street” and “Two Characters, One Light Bulb” How to match your brand’s resources and personality to the right format Why volume isn’t the answer, and what quality actually means in the age of AI and infinite content Why originality is overrated, and how proven formats unlock creativity instead of limiting it How even “boring” industries like tax, insurance, and leather craftsmanship can thrive on social media The truth about “frequency myths” and how creators burn out chasing quantity over story Why format mastery trumps trend-chasing—and how sitcoms, Spielberg, and social media are more alike than you think Brendan also breaks down his format-matching process, built from over 10,000 hours of research and analysis of 300+ viral content structures. His agency works with individuals and brands to identify the storytelling structures that resonate most with their audience, and helps them build repeatable, on-brand content that doesn’t just go viral, but converts. This conversation flips conventional marketing wisdom on its head, challenging the obsession with originality and encouraging marketers to focus on structure, story, and strategic authenticity. Key Takeaways: Virality isn’t random, it’s engineered through proven creative models Storytelling formats provide containers for creativity, not limitations Format mastery enables faster growth and deeper audience trust Business outcomes must be baked into your content strategy from day one Social media isn't just another channel, it's the ultimate storytelling platform 📥 Access the show notes, tools, and links at: 📩 Join the free newsletter for access to Daniel’s monthly live sessions:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back to the DigitalMarketing Podcast, brought to
you by target internet.com.
My name's Daniel Roll, and in this episodewe have a guide to how to go viral.
Before you say it, that old thing, whenyour boss says, we need this content
(00:22):
to go viral, is it really a thing?
Well, actually what we've got here isan interview of Brendan Cain and Brendan
blew me away having read some of hisbooks and then managing to interview him.
He wrote a book, 1 million Followers.
I. Which is an experiment inhow can you go from scratch
and get a million followers?
And Brendan will talk us through that.
But what he's really spoken aboutin these other books is how can
(00:44):
you make virality repeatable?
How can you social media as abusiness multiplier, can you
do this by staying on brand?
Actually, what are the video and contentformats that really, really work?
And he has the most amazingtechnique to looking at this.
And he made me change my mind onsomething completely, which is I was
really concerned about, you know,people just kind of looking at these
(01:06):
different formats of videos that areout there and just doing the same
thing that other people are doing.
It's not about that at all.
Actually what he does is reflect on,
,Daniel Rowles: so I'm here with Brendan Caner.
Why don't you just tell us, Brenda, a bitabout the book 1 million Followers, and
the kinda work that went into it as well.
'cause I was fascinated when thePR company reached out about this.
(01:27):
And I, I love the book, soyeah, tell me a bit about it.
Brendan Kane (01:29):
Yeah, so I, I kind of stumbled my way into social media.
So I initially wanted to be a filmproducer and went to film school,
hopefully learning kind of some aspectsof business because I thought, like,
to be a producer, you need to know the.
You know what business is, but quicklyrealized they didn't teach you anything
about business and film school.
So, this was like 2002, 2003.
(01:50):
So at the time I just start saidlike, Hey, I'm gonna start a few
businesses to learn on my own.
And the most cost efficient waywas to create online companies.
So I started to get my foothold indigital, and then when I graduated from
film school, I moved to LA in 2005.
To pursue a career in film asa producer, but I realized I
was one of a million people.
(02:10):
Like, you know, you wanna, like, thebeautiful thing about the film industry
is everybody starts at the bottom.
So I started at the bottom making coffeecopies, deliveries, when the people
I wanted to connect with the heads ofthe studios or producers or directors
said, well, why did you move here?
I would say I want to be a film producer,and I could see everybody's eyes glaze
over, so I had to take a step back andfind, well, what was my hook point?
Well, how could I stand out?
(02:31):
And I just realized in thestudio I was working for that.
Every time we finished a film, there'dbe a sense of anxiety and stress that
would come over the studio becausewe were investing tens of millions of
dollars into a single piece of contentand then committing tens of millions of
dollars to market that piece of content.
And it's very differentthan any other business.
You don't have years ordecades to build a brand.
You literally have months.
(02:52):
For hundreds of millions of peoplearound the world to know about this.
So I took a step back and I, and socialmedia was first coming on the scene
and you know, 'cause it was 2005,MySpace was the predominant player.
They had 25 million users.
Facebook had just launched.
The year before it only had 6 million.
And YouTube was in its firstyear, had 8 million users.
(03:12):
I just thought like, well, thesenew things are emerging, these
new platforms, and there's nosuch thing as an influencer.
But I saw that, you know, there wasthese people creating content from
their bedrooms or their webcams,reaching millions of people.
So I just went to the head of the studioand said, Hey, I want to reach out to
these people on YouTube and connectthem with our movie stars and movies
(03:34):
to interact and create promotionalcontent, which we became the first
ever influencer campaign on YouTube.
Which was wildly successful was for amovie called Crank with Jason Statham,
it was like a smaller movie, didn'thave a huge budget but it ended up
being very profitable because we, weyou know, tapped into these resources.
So that's how I first got intosocial media, and then I kind
(03:55):
of kept evolving from there.
I built the first ever influencertechnology platform on top of
MySpace and license it to MTV.
Then did other partnerships withMTV, which opened the doors to
work with celebrities like TaylorSwift and Rihanna on kind of their
social media commerce strategies.
And then got into journalism,worked with Katie Couric with a
little bit, got into paid media.
(04:17):
But basically how I came with the ideawith the book, 'cause I was doing all of
this behind the scenes of working withFortune 500 companies and celebrities and.
When I would talk to people, they'relike, oh yeah, it's because you're
working with MTV or Vice Magazine or ikea.
That's the reason it's working.
And I knew, 'cause I've tested somuch and so saw so much data that
it could be applied to anyone.
(04:38):
And that's where I came up with theidea for creating the book 1 million
Followers to kind of prove that out.
That like this kind, thesestrategies and social media was
accessible to everyone, not just.
Mainstream corporations and people withlarge budgets or teams or fancy titles.
Daniel Rowles (04:56):
Fantastic.
So talk us through that key premiseof the book as well for people that
don't anything about it, because Ithink it's a great premise and it's
a brave premise as well to work atand to kind of prove that point.
Brendan Kane (05:04):
Yeah, so the premise was running an experiment to myself
because I wasn't a celebrity.
Yes, I worked in the movie industry,but I was behind the camera.
I. I didn't have an audience.
I didn't have a following.
I probably knew professionally,20 or 30 people at the time.
So it wasn't like I was communicating witha ton of people or had this big audience.
But the premise was building an audienceof a million people in a hundred
(05:25):
countries in less than 30 days leveragingthe systems that I had developed Now.
It wasn't about making mefamous, it wasn't about
turning me into an influencer.
It was purely an experiment.
And a part of that experiment was testingdifferent types of content around myself
to understand what would cause people toshare my content at High velocity, and
then opt in to follow my, at the, thefirst experiment I did was on Facebook.
Daniel Rowles (05:51):
So one of the things I've noticed as well, I mean we'll come
to this later on, is the fact that youkind of tied together the social media,
but also the email side of things.
'cause I've signed up for your newslettersand they're, they're phenomenally
well tied in with all this as well.
So.
I kind of, the point I wanna getto is that you feel that virality
is repeatable and you've proventhat point, time and time again.
You go to the website, which we'lltalk about in a moment as well.
(06:12):
So is it repeatable?
Because most marketers, theywould say, no, no you can't.
When your boss says, I'll make this goviral, they kind of fill with dread.
But you kind of proven that.
So do you wanna talk us through that?
Brendan Kane (06:22):
Yeah, so about eight years ago, so I've been
in this space since 2005.
So I've been learning like trialand error through social media.
And obviously social media has evolved.
Dramatically since 2005.
And one of the, the biggest factorsin the difference between what it was
when I first started versus where it istoday, is purely the number of people.
(06:44):
You know, when I first started,there's less than 50 million
people using social media.
Today there's over 5billion people using it.
So it's just the sheeramount of, of content.
So, obviously I've, you know,learned and tested and tried.
Things that have worked haven't worked.
But about eight years ago, we startedto, kind of create our creative model
from scratch and the core kind of.
(07:05):
Like real, and we can dive as deep asyou want into the, the creative model.
But one of the core elements to thecreative model is qualitative analysis.
So what does that actually mean?
Well, let's talk about the differencebetween quantitative and qualitative.
So quantitative is just the pure numbers.
It's how many views, howmany click-throughs, how what
reach, you know, the retentiongraph, things of that nature.
(07:28):
It's the hard numbers Now.
Those are important things tohave, but where they're limited,
it doesn't explain the why.
It does a good job of telling yousomething worked or didn't work, but
not the fundamental why behind it.
So that's where qualitative analysis comesin, and that's kind of the contributing
storytelling elements and, and toolsthat you use to drive performance.
(07:48):
So again I started going to incollege, going to film school.
So if you think about, and I'm surepeople have seen it in movie years
or heard of friends or stories like.
do you do when you go to film school?
Well, you sit down andwatch classic movies.
You break them down.
Even though I wanted to be a producer,they made me take acting classes.
They made me take editing classes.
They made me direct things, light sets.
(08:10):
Be a cinematographer.
Why?
Because all of these smallnuances contribute to whether you
create a successful movie or not.
So the people listening to this, I'msure you've probably sat down and you
were super excited to see a movie andyou left and you're like, you know.
Just something was missing.
I don't know what it was, butit wasn't as good as I thought.
Well, that was because one of thosequalitative elements were off.
(08:31):
Maybe the, the directorjust didn't deliver.
He was going through a divorceor maybe the, the actors had bad
chemistry or the dialogue was bad.
Now, the reality is social mediais the same people kind of.
Think social media is like this new mystickind of medium, that it's a mystery black
box, but the reality is it's just anotherstorytelling platform, and the people that
(08:57):
succeed and win are the best storytellers.
So that's why in ourmodel, we focus so heavily.
On the qualitative elementsof what really makes up a good
story, how to tell a good story.
So we've spent over 10,000 hoursresearching what we call storytelling
formats and structures, and understandingdeeply what makes them successful.
(09:20):
So.
We've analyzed over 300 of these formats.
And I say that because there's alot of them out there, and I'll
give you some prime examples.
One that pretty much everybody hasseen is called Man on the Street you
approach a random stranger on the streetand you engage and interact with them.
Now, the beauty of formats.
can be leveraged forany industry or sector.
(09:40):
So man on the street, it'sused by photographers.
Like I know a friend, a stamp that'sa mastermind of 20 million people, he
approaches random strangers in the street,offers them a professional photo shoot.
There's an account, the School of HardKnocks, that asks people, well, how did
you make your first million dollars?
There's a guy body by Mark that asks.
You know, fit people.
How did you, you know,what's your workout?
(10:01):
Caleb Simpson, you know,asked people for home tours.
these formats are very flexible.
Now, the interesting thing aboutMan on the Street and this kind of,
where I know that social media is,is is not some mystery black box.
That man on the street format generatesbillions and billions of views and
tens of millions of followers, youknow, when it was invented in 1954 for
(10:23):
the first season of The Tonight Show.
it shows you like this storytellingformat was invented in 1954,
but it still works today.
Another format is called Two Characters,one Light Bulb, where it's the same
person that plays two differentcharacters and they debunk a common
myth or misconception about an industry.
So Erica Kohlberg uses this.
(10:44):
the, the fine print of legal contracts.
Like, what happens whenyour flight gets canceled?
What happens when your AirPods get break?
Mark Tilbury uses it for, for breakingdown elements of buying a car or
insurance or things of that nature.
That one, the first time I saw it was inAustin Powers in 1997 when he played Dr.
Evil in Austin.
Powers going back and forth.
we look at these formats and what
Daniel Rowles (11:05):
All.
Brendan Kane (11:06):
is we crossly and study.
What's the difference between whenpeople use that format to generate
tens of millions of views versus whenpeople use that exact same format and
generate tens of thousands of views?
And that's where kind of the, thescience kind of comes into play,
and you can really understand howand why things go viral, but just as
(11:27):
important and why things don't go viral.
Daniel Rowles (11:31):
What, what I was fascinated by as well when I was reading the book
was that I kind of suddenly clickedin when you talked about the format
and it's like, okay, I can get it nowbecause you've got these, these formats
that have worked for years that there'slots of new ones out there as well,
but actually work out what's gonna bethe best one for this particular brand
to deliver what it needs to deliverthat's gonna generate what they want.
Then that, that piece of actually sayingthis is why it works, this is why it
(11:52):
doesn't work, and this is why it is.
And I think that was, thatwas the key thing to me that
really kind of really resonated.
So let, let's move onto that a little bit.
It's, how can you do this while stayingon brand and actually generating
the desired outcomes you want?
So yes, we can, we can get greatreach, we can go off there, we can get
loads of views 'cause entertainmentand it's, you know, it's engaging and
(12:13):
all those kind of things, but how doyou do it within that framework of a
business and organization or a brand?
Brendan Kane (12:18):
Yeah, so number one is we never work with clients
or tell somebody to do somethingfor the sake of going viral.
It has to translateinto business outcomes.
So we're not gonna tell you to do asilly t TikTok dance video or follow
some silly trend just because theycan generate millions of views.
It has to tie to your specific expertise.
(12:38):
It's also the reason.
have a team of researchers.
We've spent the 10,000 hoursidentified 300 formats.
By the end of the year we'll be at 500.
our kind of, core philosophy is howdo we match a client, a brand, an
individual to their ideal format?
Because there's two things thatI consider at a macro level when
(12:58):
helping people find their format.
number one, what is the resourcesthat they have available to them?
Because I don't try and extendpeople beyond their resources like.
There are formats, literally thatyou can use an iPhone and go viral.
Like we have a hand doctor that sort of,with zero followers, zero views and is
at 800,000 followers and it, you know,got a book deal and a TV deal out of it.
(13:19):
But number two, what excites you?
is a format that you just absolutely love,that you look at it and be like, you know,
this is the perfect vehicle for me toshare my zone of, of genius, my expertise
that's related to my subject matter.
So that's kind of the first component.
The second one is you have to kind ofreframe the difference between like
(13:41):
organic social media and buildingan audience and like paid media.
So paid, paid media is direct response.
You're just trying to, tojust drive a transaction.
Organic social media istrying to build an audience.
And building an audience isgetting people to know, like, and
trust you to the point that theyautomatically want to buy from you.
And that's a big kind of mindset shiftthat a lot of people need to know is
(14:03):
like I run into so many brands and evenindividuals that are struggling because
what they do is they treat their socialmedia profile like their website and
their organic posts, like their ads.
And that's just not the case.
Like I ask everybody listening tothis, when was the last time you,
logged on to social media and belike, I wanna see a great ad today.
No, that's not why we do it.
(14:24):
again, I understand we are in thebusiness of driving business outcomes.
We want to drive success.
So what we purely see ishow can we find a format.
That really connects with the expertise,their zone of genius that will ultimately
inspire people to build that relationshipwhere they wanna take that next level.
So I'll just give you a prime example.
We had.
(14:45):
a leather craftsman come to us.
Tanner Leather, you know,a, a really fascinating guy.
At age 11, he createdhis first leather jacket.
He just fell in love with creating that.
So he created a leather goods company.
You know, when he, he, he grew upand, you know, he approached social
media, like most people was, Hey, mysocial media profile is my website
and I'm just gonna create ads.
And it just wasn't breaking through.
(15:07):
So we helped them develop aformat called, is it Worth It?
Ba basically, you know, he, he takeslike a $5,000 Chanel handbag, and
yes, he actually buys these handbagsfor the price, deconstructs it on
screen, and shows you whether it'sworth the money you're paying for it.
single format took him from 2000followers to 2.5 million across
social media channels, and he has94 videos, over a million views.
(15:30):
Now, people may ask, well, why?
he's taking other people's handbags, howdoes that translate into business for him?
Well, what he's doingis he's building trust.
He's building relationshipwith the audience and the
audience size is so scalable.
People have built that relationship.
They automatically wannatake that next step.
They want to click on the link in hisbio, visit his website, see what are
(15:51):
the products or services that he sells.
told me when we were having dinner,dinner a few weeks ago, like, he has
to be careful about when he launchesvideos because his products will sell out
because it just creates that much demand.
So it is a bit of a kind of mindset shift.
but if you choose a format that'sauthentic to you, it demonstrates
(16:12):
your core expertise, your zone ofgenius, it will automatically lead
to people wanting to buy from you.
But the, it is a littlebit different of like.
of what people typically look at, of termsof like just trying to sell the product,
do product shots, feature the productin every kind of video type scenario.
Daniel Rowles (16:31):
Yeah.
I think that mindset changewe've talked about in the podcast
a fair bit before because.
In a way, we're in a good zoneat the moment because the fact is
that measurement's getting harder.
And actually I think that's madethings a little bit better because
when we were going through right directresponse, you've got this many clicks,
this many conversions, that that waswhere the money was getting spent.
And actually we, we know the only reasonyou probably clicked on that brand in
the first place is you trusted thembecause you've been listening to the
(16:53):
podcast for six months beforehand.
So actually I think now people aremaybe taking that step back and
saying, look, that relationshipbuilding, that brand building is,
is so much more at heart of this.
And that's why the book tome just really blew me away.
I thought, oh, right, I get it.
It is trying to persuadepeople that mindset change.
So I really think peopleshould get and read it.
One of the things that I, there was aninteresting point that I thought was
fairly against best practice in my mind,first of all is like, why mastering viral
(17:15):
formats on TikTok Trump's originality?
And I was really interested in thatbecause it's like, no being original,
it's the best thing you can possibly do.
But yeah, to talk us through that.
Brendan Kane (17:22):
Yeah, so the best, the best way I can give
an analogy to break it down.
So again, I started my, my career inthe film industry and one of the things.
That I learned from that is,is movies are very formulaic.
So if you think about any movie overthe past hundred years that you've
watched, almost everyone follows thesame format, ands a three act structure.
if you, if you think, because a lot ofpeople, like you said, have this concern
(17:46):
of like, well, formats sound great, butthey're gonna restrict my creativity.
But in reality, they unlock creativity.
So we think one of the beststorytellers of our generation, Steven
Spielberg, you know, you have Jaws.
Versus Jurassic Park versus IndianaJones versus saving private Ryan.
(18:07):
Like they're all distinct differentstories, they're, they feel unique.
They feel original, they'reall using the same structure.
But when we sit down and, and watchany movie, we're not sitting down
and be like, ah, Steven, I got you.
You're using the threeact structure again.
Like this is gonna be boring.
No.
structure, what it does for a filmmaker.
(18:28):
Like as Steven Spielberg, it gives youa container that is proven to work that
allows you to then master all the nuanceswithin that container, within that format.
Structure.
And the same thing applies with socialmedia is when we have the guardrails
of a structure, it allows us to masterthe nuances within that structure so
that we can become a genius storyteller.
(18:50):
Another analogy to think about, becausea lot of people think I need to be
original with each post, I need to.
I need to chase trends.
I need to do the latest thing.
if we were to sit down and say, you knowwhat we want, we're gonna learn a musical
instrument, we're gonna become a masterfulmaster of a, a musical instrument.
And there's two tracks that we can take.
Is like the original trendroute or the format route?
(19:13):
Well, the original trend routewould look something like this.
Week one, we, we start with the piano.
Week two, we switch to the drums.
Week three, we switch to the the flute.
Then week four we go to the violin.
keep switching the goalposts, well,we gonna be good at any of these?
Versus if we chose the format routes tosay, you know what, we're gonna spend
the next year mastering the piano.
Like that's where it comes through.
(19:35):
And that's where you see the mostsuccessful people on social media when
they're successful because of socialmedia, they sit down, they find their
format, and they master the nuancesof how to tell the story within it.
Now again, formats unlock creativity.
You can still put yourzone of genius in there.
And be able to share theinformation that you want to.
Daniel Rowles (19:55):
Yeah, I love it.
I mean, it's, it's really changed mymindset about the whole thing because
there've been this big pushback againstkind of trend jacking, just jumping
on the latest trend, but actually.
When I kind of thought about it, Ithought, well, actually you could say
is if this thing's working for everyone.
There's also the argument of like,if I double down on that and that's
just a, a format that I'm using,then actually that that can work.
So that's maybe why some people aregetting some leverage off the back of it.
(20:16):
So I think it's, it's really mademe reanalyze things a little bit as
well, which I think's fascinating.
Brendan Kane (20:20):
trend jacking is like, you're, you're, you're jumping from
thing to thing to thing, and you'renot mastering the fundamentals of.
Telling a story.
You look at, again, like we allwatch sitcoms, like TV sitcoms,
like friends or Seinfeld or anyof those, you know, the, the most
popular shows, they're all formulaic.
Yet we, we still love thembecause they, you know, friends
(20:40):
in Seinfeld feel very different,yet they're using the exact same
Daniel Rowles (20:44):
Yeah.
Right.
Brendan Kane (20:44):
terms of how they're delivering their stories.
Daniel Rowles (20:47):
So is there any other common kind of social media
growth myths that we think weshould kinda try and debunk as well?
At this stage?
I.
Brendan Kane (20:54):
I would say frequency is the key to success
is, is just the volume play.
I think that that doesn't do adisservice to people as they're
trying to, either they're trying tostart out or they're trying to find
the clues to what, what succeeds.
this is not about.
How much content we can produce.
It's more about how we can masterthe art of storytelling algorithms.
(21:16):
And more importantly,people don't favor volume.
They favor quality.
So if you think about going intoNetflix, like how do you choose the next
TV show that you want to binge watch?
Is it number of S episodes, thelength of the episodes, or is it the
trailer and a friend recommendation?
I don't know about you, but it'salways like either the trailer or the
friend recommendation that drives it.
(21:37):
And it's the same thing like.
Because we live in a world withsocial media with 5 billion people.
There's over a billion piecesof content uploaded across every
social media platform every day,and then you just think about the
amount of content we consume fromlike a streaming service providers.
We are professional content consumers.
We have so much
Daniel Rowles (21:54):
Right.
Brendan Kane (21:56):
We are going to favor and consume content based upon how the story
impacts us, the quality of story, how itconnects with us, not because a creator.
Produces a certain amount of content.
Now, I will say 10 years ago 15years ago, these platforms did
favor frequency because socialmedia was a lot simpler back then.
(22:19):
You know, if you think about 15 yearsago, you know, you get somebody to
follow you, you post, there's a goodchance that they're gonna see it.
Today, there's, there's no free wins.
Just because you have followers,it doesn't mean people are
gonna see your content.
that's a big one that I think doesa disservice to a lot of people.
It burns people out.
Now there is a play, like frequencycan play a, a role once you've kind
(22:41):
of mastered your format, if youwant to increase it from there.
But when you're starting out, youkind of wanna master these nuances.
So that's definitely a myth.
Another big one is thatyou need like a big team.
You need fancy equipment, you know, youneed lighting and all of these things.
When in reality, if you have a phone,an iPhone, and it can capture decent
quality and you can tell a compellingstory, you can break through.
(23:03):
Now, there are certain formats thatescalate the amount of production,
but it's not, you don't need it tokind of, drive that initial traction.
Another big one is my industry's notsexy or interesting enough to go viral.
Every, we've worked in everyindustry sector, taxes go viral.
Insurance goes viral, real estategoes viral, nutrition goes viral.
(23:25):
Any subject matter can, it's justthe context of how you you tell the,
the, the express the information tothe audiences you're trying to reach.
Daniel Rowles (23:35):
Yeah, that was one of my big learnings actually looking at
your website, is looking at all thosecase studies and examples and going, it
is every kind of sector that's, that'skind of made success in it, right?
I guess there's always an angle, right?
So, so tell us about that.
So tell us about Hook point.
Tell us about the business howpeople can follow you, how they
can get in touch and, and whatyour business offers as a service.
Because I, I read the book,it's changed my mindset.
There's, you've read other books that Ihaven't read yet and I've started getting
(23:57):
your emails and I love all of your stuff.
So tell us all about it.
Brendan Kane (24:00):
Yeah, so essentially our company does is we help, brands,
individuals find their ideal format.
And we do the research for them.
So we basically, for us to break down aformat takes us between 15 to 20 hours.
It's like that lengthy of a, of a process.
But what we do is we help youmatch with your ideal format, and
(24:21):
then we break down kind of theblueprint of how to execute on it.
Like those qualitative nuances thatallow you to we again, we're not
one of these people that say, oh,this is working, so go do that.
It's like.
This is working and we spend 15 to20 hours breaking down how and why
it works, but more importantly, whenit doesn't work, why it doesn't work.
we really help clients with this matchingprocess of finding their, their format,
(24:46):
and then we train them in our, in ourcreative model that we've developed
over the past eight years as well.
Daniel Rowles (24:52):
Yeah, I, I love it.
It's such a structured approach tothings that actually I can, I can really
see having read the book, how that,that would work in practice as well.
So what about people?
Where can they follow you?
What's the, what's thebest way to get in contact?
I.
Brendan Kane (25:02):
They can go to hook point.com to learn more about it.
They can, you know, I just released mythird book, the Guide to Going Viral.
If they want to just dive more into thatprocess, they can go to hook point.com/dmp
for digital marketing podcast.
And they can just follow me on Instagram.
I respond to DMS on Instagram, LinkedIn.
I produce content on YouTube,so we're pretty much everywhere.
Daniel Rowles (25:24):
Brilliant.
All right, well all of thatwill be in the show notes, so
target internet.com/podcast.
We'll put all of the linksin there to get in contact.
Brendan, what I've read of yourstuff so far has been a bit of a
complete mindset change for me, andit kind of, we were arguing things
about four podcasts ago that I'venow changed my mind on completely.
So thank you so much for all the insights.
Thank you for joining us.
I know how busy you are.
And hopefully we'll see you againon the Digital Marketing Podcast.
Brendan Kane (25:43):
Yeah.
Thanks for having me.
It was a pleasure to connect with youand everybody that tuned into this.
Welcome back to the DigitalMarketing Podcast, brought to
you by target internet.com.
My name's Daniel Roll, and in this episodewe have a guide to how to go viral.
Before you say it, that old thing, whenyour boss says, we need this content
(00:22):
to go viral, is it really a thing?
Well, actually what we've got here isan interview of Brendan Cain and Brendan
blew me away having read some of hisbooks and then managing to interview him.
He wrote a book, 1 million Followers.
I. Which is an experiment inhow can you go from scratch
and get a million followers?
And Brendan will talk us through that.
But what he's really spoken aboutin these other books is how can
(00:44):
you make virality repeatable?
How can you social media as abusiness multiplier, can you
do this by staying on brand?
Actually, what are the video and contentformats that really, really work?
And he has the most amazingtechnique to looking at this.
And he made me change my mind onsomething completely, which is I was
really concerned about, you know,people just kind of looking at these
(01:06):
different formats of videos that areout there and just doing the same
thing that other people are doing.
It's not about that at all.
Actually what he does is reflect on,
,Daniel Rowles: so I'm here with Brendan Caner.
Why don't you just tell us, Brenda, a bitabout the book 1 million Followers, and
the kinda work that went into it as well.
'cause I was fascinated when thePR company reached out about this.
(01:27):
And I, I love the book, soyeah, tell me a bit about it.
Brendan Kane (01:29):
Yeah, so I, I kind of stumbled my way into social media.
So I initially wanted to be a filmproducer and went to film school,
hopefully learning kind of some aspectsof business because I thought, like,
to be a producer, you need to know the.
You know what business is, but quicklyrealized they didn't teach you anything
about business and film school.
So, this was like 2002, 2003.
(01:50):
So at the time I just start saidlike, Hey, I'm gonna start a few
businesses to learn on my own.
And the most cost efficient waywas to create online companies.
So I started to get my foothold indigital, and then when I graduated from
film school, I moved to LA in 2005.
To pursue a career in film asa producer, but I realized I
was one of a million people.
(02:10):
Like, you know, you wanna, like, thebeautiful thing about the film industry
is everybody starts at the bottom.
So I started at the bottom making coffeecopies, deliveries, when the people
I wanted to connect with the heads ofthe studios or producers or directors
said, well, why did you move here?
I would say I want to be a film producer,and I could see everybody's eyes glaze
over, so I had to take a step back andfind, well, what was my hook point?
Well, how could I stand out?
(02:31):
And I just realized in thestudio I was working for that.
Every time we finished a film, there'dbe a sense of anxiety and stress that
would come over the studio becausewe were investing tens of millions of
dollars into a single piece of contentand then committing tens of millions of
dollars to market that piece of content.
And it's very differentthan any other business.
You don't have years ordecades to build a brand.
You literally have months.
(02:52):
For hundreds of millions of peoplearound the world to know about this.
So I took a step back and I, and socialmedia was first coming on the scene
and you know, 'cause it was 2005,MySpace was the predominant player.
They had 25 million users.
Facebook had just launched.
The year before it only had 6 million.
And YouTube was in its firstyear, had 8 million users.
(03:12):
I just thought like, well, thesenew things are emerging, these
new platforms, and there's nosuch thing as an influencer.
But I saw that, you know, there wasthese people creating content from
their bedrooms or their webcams,reaching millions of people.
So I just went to the head of the studioand said, Hey, I want to reach out to
these people on YouTube and connectthem with our movie stars and movies
(03:34):
to interact and create promotionalcontent, which we became the first
ever influencer campaign on YouTube.
Which was wildly successful was for amovie called Crank with Jason Statham,
it was like a smaller movie, didn'thave a huge budget but it ended up
being very profitable because we, weyou know, tapped into these resources.
So that's how I first got intosocial media, and then I kind
(03:55):
of kept evolving from there.
I built the first ever influencertechnology platform on top of
MySpace and license it to MTV.
Then did other partnerships withMTV, which opened the doors to
work with celebrities like TaylorSwift and Rihanna on kind of their
social media commerce strategies.
And then got into journalism,worked with Katie Couric with a
little bit, got into paid media.
(04:17):
But basically how I came with the ideawith the book, 'cause I was doing all of
this behind the scenes of working withFortune 500 companies and celebrities and.
When I would talk to people, they'relike, oh yeah, it's because you're
working with MTV or Vice Magazine or ikea.
That's the reason it's working.
And I knew, 'cause I've tested somuch and so saw so much data that
it could be applied to anyone.
(04:38):
And that's where I came up with theidea for creating the book 1 million
Followers to kind of prove that out.
That like this kind, thesestrategies and social media was
accessible to everyone, not just.
Mainstream corporations and people withlarge budgets or teams or fancy titles.
Daniel Rowles (04:56):
Fantastic.
So talk us through that key premiseof the book as well for people that
don't anything about it, because Ithink it's a great premise and it's
a brave premise as well to work atand to kind of prove that point.
Brendan Kane (05:04):
Yeah, so the premise was running an experiment to myself
because I wasn't a celebrity.
Yes, I worked in the movie industry,but I was behind the camera.
I. I didn't have an audience.
I didn't have a following.
I probably knew professionally,20 or 30 people at the time.
So it wasn't like I was communicating witha ton of people or had this big audience.
But the premise was building an audienceof a million people in a hundred
(05:25):
countries in less than 30 days leveragingthe systems that I had developed Now.
It wasn't about making mefamous, it wasn't about
turning me into an influencer.
It was purely an experiment.
And a part of that experiment was testingdifferent types of content around myself
to understand what would cause people toshare my content at High velocity, and
then opt in to follow my, at the, thefirst experiment I did was on Facebook.
Daniel Rowles (05:51):
So one of the things I've noticed as well, I mean we'll come
to this later on, is the fact that youkind of tied together the social media,
but also the email side of things.
'cause I've signed up for your newslettersand they're, they're phenomenally
well tied in with all this as well.
So.
I kind of, the point I wanna getto is that you feel that virality
is repeatable and you've proventhat point, time and time again.
You go to the website, which we'lltalk about in a moment as well.
(06:12):
So is it repeatable?
Because most marketers, theywould say, no, no you can't.
When your boss says, I'll make this goviral, they kind of fill with dread.
But you kind of proven that.
So do you wanna talk us through that?
Brendan Kane (06:22):
Yeah, so about eight years ago, so I've been
in this space since 2005.
So I've been learning like trialand error through social media.
And obviously social media has evolved.
Dramatically since 2005.
And one of the, the biggest factorsin the difference between what it was
when I first started versus where it istoday, is purely the number of people.
(06:44):
You know, when I first started,there's less than 50 million
people using social media.
Today there's over 5billion people using it.
So it's just the sheeramount of, of content.
So, obviously I've, you know,learned and tested and tried.
Things that have worked haven't worked.
But about eight years ago, we startedto, kind of create our creative model
from scratch and the core kind of.
(07:05):
Like real, and we can dive as deep asyou want into the, the creative model.
But one of the core elements to thecreative model is qualitative analysis.
So what does that actually mean?
Well, let's talk about the differencebetween quantitative and qualitative.
So quantitative is just the pure numbers.
It's how many views, howmany click-throughs, how what
reach, you know, the retentiongraph, things of that nature.
(07:28):
It's the hard numbers Now.
Those are important things tohave, but where they're limited,
it doesn't explain the why.
It does a good job of telling yousomething worked or didn't work, but
not the fundamental why behind it.
So that's where qualitative analysis comesin, and that's kind of the contributing
storytelling elements and, and toolsthat you use to drive performance.
(07:48):
So again I started going to incollege, going to film school.
So if you think about, and I'm surepeople have seen it in movie years
or heard of friends or stories like.
do you do when you go to film school?
Well, you sit down andwatch classic movies.
You break them down.
Even though I wanted to be a producer,they made me take acting classes.
They made me take editing classes.
They made me direct things, light sets.
(08:10):
Be a cinematographer.
Why?
Because all of these smallnuances contribute to whether you
create a successful movie or not.
So the people listening to this, I'msure you've probably sat down and you
were super excited to see a movie andyou left and you're like, you know.
Just something was missing.
I don't know what it was, butit wasn't as good as I thought.
Well, that was because one of thosequalitative elements were off.
(08:31):
Maybe the, the directorjust didn't deliver.
He was going through a divorceor maybe the, the actors had bad
chemistry or the dialogue was bad.
Now, the reality is social mediais the same people kind of.
Think social media is like this new mystickind of medium, that it's a mystery black
box, but the reality is it's just anotherstorytelling platform, and the people that
(08:57):
succeed and win are the best storytellers.
So that's why in ourmodel, we focus so heavily.
On the qualitative elementsof what really makes up a good
story, how to tell a good story.
So we've spent over 10,000 hoursresearching what we call storytelling
formats and structures, and understandingdeeply what makes them successful.
(09:20):
So.
We've analyzed over 300 of these formats.
And I say that because there's alot of them out there, and I'll
give you some prime examples.
One that pretty much everybody hasseen is called Man on the Street you
approach a random stranger on the streetand you engage and interact with them.
Now, the beauty of formats.
can be leveraged forany industry or sector.
(09:40):
So man on the street, it'sused by photographers.
Like I know a friend, a stamp that'sa mastermind of 20 million people, he
approaches random strangers in the street,offers them a professional photo shoot.
There's an account, the School of HardKnocks, that asks people, well, how did
you make your first million dollars?
There's a guy body by Mark that asks.
You know, fit people.
How did you, you know,what's your workout?
(10:01):
Caleb Simpson, you know,asked people for home tours.
these formats are very flexible.
Now, the interesting thing aboutMan on the Street and this kind of,
where I know that social media is,is is not some mystery black box.
That man on the street format generatesbillions and billions of views and
tens of millions of followers, youknow, when it was invented in 1954 for
(10:23):
the first season of The Tonight Show.
it shows you like this storytellingformat was invented in 1954,
but it still works today.
Another format is called Two Characters,one Light Bulb, where it's the same
person that plays two differentcharacters and they debunk a common
myth or misconception about an industry.
So Erica Kohlberg uses this.
(10:44):
the, the fine print of legal contracts.
Like, what happens whenyour flight gets canceled?
What happens when your AirPods get break?
Mark Tilbury uses it for, for breakingdown elements of buying a car or
insurance or things of that nature.
That one, the first time I saw it was inAustin Powers in 1997 when he played Dr.
Evil in Austin.
Powers going back and forth.
we look at these formats and what
Daniel Rowles (11:05):
All.
Brendan Kane (11:06):
is we crossly and study.
What's the difference between whenpeople use that format to generate
tens of millions of views versus whenpeople use that exact same format and
generate tens of thousands of views?
And that's where kind of the, thescience kind of comes into play,
and you can really understand howand why things go viral, but just as
(11:27):
important and why things don't go viral.
Daniel Rowles (11:31):
What, what I was fascinated by as well when I was reading the book
was that I kind of suddenly clickedin when you talked about the format
and it's like, okay, I can get it nowbecause you've got these, these formats
that have worked for years that there'slots of new ones out there as well,
but actually work out what's gonna bethe best one for this particular brand
to deliver what it needs to deliverthat's gonna generate what they want.
Then that, that piece of actually sayingthis is why it works, this is why it
(11:52):
doesn't work, and this is why it is.
And I think that was, thatwas the key thing to me that
really kind of really resonated.
So let, let's move onto that a little bit.
It's, how can you do this while stayingon brand and actually generating
the desired outcomes you want?
So yes, we can, we can get greatreach, we can go off there, we can get
loads of views 'cause entertainmentand it's, you know, it's engaging and
(12:13):
all those kind of things, but how doyou do it within that framework of a
business and organization or a brand?
Brendan Kane (12:18):
Yeah, so number one is we never work with clients
or tell somebody to do somethingfor the sake of going viral.
It has to translateinto business outcomes.
So we're not gonna tell you to do asilly t TikTok dance video or follow
some silly trend just because theycan generate millions of views.
It has to tie to your specific expertise.
(12:38):
It's also the reason.
have a team of researchers.
We've spent the 10,000 hoursidentified 300 formats.
By the end of the year we'll be at 500.
our kind of, core philosophy is howdo we match a client, a brand, an
individual to their ideal format?
Because there's two things thatI consider at a macro level when
(12:58):
helping people find their format.
number one, what is the resourcesthat they have available to them?
Because I don't try and extendpeople beyond their resources like.
There are formats, literally thatyou can use an iPhone and go viral.
Like we have a hand doctor that sort of,with zero followers, zero views and is
at 800,000 followers and it, you know,got a book deal and a TV deal out of it.
(13:19):
But number two, what excites you?
is a format that you just absolutely love,that you look at it and be like, you know,
this is the perfect vehicle for me toshare my zone of, of genius, my expertise
that's related to my subject matter.
So that's kind of the first component.
The second one is you have to kind ofreframe the difference between like
(13:41):
organic social media and buildingan audience and like paid media.
So paid, paid media is direct response.
You're just trying to, tojust drive a transaction.
Organic social media istrying to build an audience.
And building an audience isgetting people to know, like, and
trust you to the point that theyautomatically want to buy from you.
And that's a big kind of mindset shiftthat a lot of people need to know is
(14:03):
like I run into so many brands and evenindividuals that are struggling because
what they do is they treat their socialmedia profile like their website and
their organic posts, like their ads.
And that's just not the case.
Like I ask everybody listening tothis, when was the last time you,
logged on to social media and belike, I wanna see a great ad today.
No, that's not why we do it.
(14:24):
again, I understand we are in thebusiness of driving business outcomes.
We want to drive success.
So what we purely see ishow can we find a format.
That really connects with the expertise,their zone of genius that will ultimately
inspire people to build that relationshipwhere they wanna take that next level.
So I'll just give you a prime example.
We had.
(14:45):
a leather craftsman come to us.
Tanner Leather, you know,a, a really fascinating guy.
At age 11, he createdhis first leather jacket.
He just fell in love with creating that.
So he created a leather goods company.
You know, when he, he, he grew upand, you know, he approached social
media, like most people was, Hey, mysocial media profile is my website
and I'm just gonna create ads.
And it just wasn't breaking through.
(15:07):
So we helped them develop aformat called, is it Worth It?
Ba basically, you know, he, he takeslike a $5,000 Chanel handbag, and
yes, he actually buys these handbagsfor the price, deconstructs it on
screen, and shows you whether it'sworth the money you're paying for it.
single format took him from 2000followers to 2.5 million across
social media channels, and he has94 videos, over a million views.
(15:30):
Now, people may ask, well, why?
he's taking other people's handbags, howdoes that translate into business for him?
Well, what he's doingis he's building trust.
He's building relationshipwith the audience and the
audience size is so scalable.
People have built that relationship.
They automatically wannatake that next step.
They want to click on the link in hisbio, visit his website, see what are
(15:51):
the products or services that he sells.
told me when we were having dinner,dinner a few weeks ago, like, he has
to be careful about when he launchesvideos because his products will sell out
because it just creates that much demand.
So it is a bit of a kind of mindset shift.
but if you choose a format that'sauthentic to you, it demonstrates
(16:12):
your core expertise, your zone ofgenius, it will automatically lead
to people wanting to buy from you.
But the, it is a littlebit different of like.
of what people typically look at, of termsof like just trying to sell the product,
do product shots, feature the productin every kind of video type scenario.
Daniel Rowles (16:31):
Yeah.
I think that mindset changewe've talked about in the podcast
a fair bit before because.
In a way, we're in a good zoneat the moment because the fact is
that measurement's getting harder.
And actually I think that's madethings a little bit better because
when we were going through right directresponse, you've got this many clicks,
this many conversions, that that waswhere the money was getting spent.
And actually we, we know the only reasonyou probably clicked on that brand in
the first place is you trusted thembecause you've been listening to the
(16:53):
podcast for six months beforehand.
So actually I think now people aremaybe taking that step back and
saying, look, that relationshipbuilding, that brand building is,
is so much more at heart of this.
And that's why the book tome just really blew me away.
I thought, oh, right, I get it.
It is trying to persuadepeople that mindset change.
So I really think peopleshould get and read it.
One of the things that I, there was aninteresting point that I thought was
fairly against best practice in my mind,first of all is like, why mastering viral
(17:15):
formats on TikTok Trump's originality?
And I was really interested in thatbecause it's like, no being original,
it's the best thing you can possibly do.
But yeah, to talk us through that.
Brendan Kane (17:22):
Yeah, so the best, the best way I can give
an analogy to break it down.
So again, I started my, my career inthe film industry and one of the things.
That I learned from that is,is movies are very formulaic.
So if you think about any movie overthe past hundred years that you've
watched, almost everyone follows thesame format, ands a three act structure.
if you, if you think, because a lot ofpeople, like you said, have this concern
(17:46):
of like, well, formats sound great, butthey're gonna restrict my creativity.
But in reality, they unlock creativity.
So we think one of the beststorytellers of our generation, Steven
Spielberg, you know, you have Jaws.
Versus Jurassic Park versus IndianaJones versus saving private Ryan.
(18:07):
Like they're all distinct differentstories, they're, they feel unique.
They feel original, they'reall using the same structure.
But when we sit down and, and watchany movie, we're not sitting down
and be like, ah, Steven, I got you.
You're using the threeact structure again.
Like this is gonna be boring.
No.
structure, what it does for a filmmaker.
(18:28):
Like as Steven Spielberg, it gives youa container that is proven to work that
allows you to then master all the nuanceswithin that container, within that format.
Structure.
And the same thing applies with socialmedia is when we have the guardrails
of a structure, it allows us to masterthe nuances within that structure so
that we can become a genius storyteller.
(18:50):
Another analogy to think about, becausea lot of people think I need to be
original with each post, I need to.
I need to chase trends.
I need to do the latest thing.
if we were to sit down and say, you knowwhat we want, we're gonna learn a musical
instrument, we're gonna become a masterfulmaster of a, a musical instrument.
And there's two tracks that we can take.
Is like the original trendroute or the format route?
(19:13):
Well, the original trend routewould look something like this.
Week one, we, we start with the piano.
Week two, we switch to the drums.
Week three, we switch to the the flute.
Then week four we go to the violin.
keep switching the goalposts, well,we gonna be good at any of these?
Versus if we chose the format routes tosay, you know what, we're gonna spend
the next year mastering the piano.
Like that's where it comes through.
(19:35):
And that's where you see the mostsuccessful people on social media when
they're successful because of socialmedia, they sit down, they find their
format, and they master the nuancesof how to tell the story within it.
Now again, formats unlock creativity.
You can still put yourzone of genius in there.
And be able to share theinformation that you want to.
Daniel Rowles (19:55):
Yeah, I love it.
I mean, it's, it's really changed mymindset about the whole thing because
there've been this big pushback againstkind of trend jacking, just jumping
on the latest trend, but actually.
When I kind of thought about it, Ithought, well, actually you could say
is if this thing's working for everyone.
There's also the argument of like,if I double down on that and that's
just a, a format that I'm using,then actually that that can work.
So that's maybe why some people aregetting some leverage off the back of it.
(20:16):
So I think it's, it's really mademe reanalyze things a little bit as
well, which I think's fascinating.
Brendan Kane (20:20):
trend jacking is like, you're, you're, you're jumping from
thing to thing to thing, and you'renot mastering the fundamentals of.
Telling a story.
You look at, again, like we allwatch sitcoms, like TV sitcoms,
like friends or Seinfeld or anyof those, you know, the, the most
popular shows, they're all formulaic.
Yet we, we still love thembecause they, you know, friends
(20:40):
in Seinfeld feel very different,yet they're using the exact same
Daniel Rowles (20:44):
Yeah.
Right.
Brendan Kane (20:44):
terms of how they're delivering their stories.
Daniel Rowles (20:47):
So is there any other common kind of social media
growth myths that we think weshould kinda try and debunk as well?
At this stage?
I.
Brendan Kane (20:54):
I would say frequency is the key to success
is, is just the volume play.
I think that that doesn't do adisservice to people as they're
trying to, either they're trying tostart out or they're trying to find
the clues to what, what succeeds.
this is not about.
How much content we can produce.
It's more about how we can masterthe art of storytelling algorithms.
(21:16):
And more importantly,people don't favor volume.
They favor quality.
So if you think about going intoNetflix, like how do you choose the next
TV show that you want to binge watch?
Is it number of S episodes, thelength of the episodes, or is it the
trailer and a friend recommendation?
I don't know about you, but it'salways like either the trailer or the
friend recommendation that drives it.
(21:37):
And it's the same thing like.
Because we live in a world withsocial media with 5 billion people.
There's over a billion piecesof content uploaded across every
social media platform every day,and then you just think about the
amount of content we consume fromlike a streaming service providers.
We are professional content consumers.
We have so much
Daniel Rowles (21:54):
Right.
Brendan Kane (21:56):
We are going to favor and consume content based upon how the story
impacts us, the quality of story, how itconnects with us, not because a creator.
Produces a certain amount of content.
Now, I will say 10 years ago 15years ago, these platforms did
favor frequency because socialmedia was a lot simpler back then.
(22:19):
You know, if you think about 15 yearsago, you know, you get somebody to
follow you, you post, there's a goodchance that they're gonna see it.
Today, there's, there's no free wins.
Just because you have followers,it doesn't mean people are
gonna see your content.
that's a big one that I think doesa disservice to a lot of people.
It burns people out.
Now there is a play, like frequencycan play a, a role once you've kind
(22:41):
of mastered your format, if youwant to increase it from there.
But when you're starting out, youkind of wanna master these nuances.
So that's definitely a myth.
Another big one is thatyou need like a big team.
You need fancy equipment, you know, youneed lighting and all of these things.
When in reality, if you have a phone,an iPhone, and it can capture decent
quality and you can tell a compellingstory, you can break through.
(23:03):
Now, there are certain formats thatescalate the amount of production,
but it's not, you don't need it tokind of, drive that initial traction.
Another big one is my industry's notsexy or interesting enough to go viral.
Every, we've worked in everyindustry sector, taxes go viral.
Insurance goes viral, real estategoes viral, nutrition goes viral.
(23:25):
Any subject matter can, it's justthe context of how you you tell the,
the, the express the information tothe audiences you're trying to reach.
Daniel Rowles (23:35):
Yeah, that was one of my big learnings actually looking at
your website, is looking at all thosecase studies and examples and going, it
is every kind of sector that's, that'skind of made success in it, right?
I guess there's always an angle, right?
So, so tell us about that.
So tell us about Hook point.
Tell us about the business howpeople can follow you, how they
can get in touch and, and whatyour business offers as a service.
Because I, I read the book,it's changed my mindset.
There's, you've read other books that Ihaven't read yet and I've started getting
(23:57):
your emails and I love all of your stuff.
So tell us all about it.
Brendan Kane (24:00):
Yeah, so essentially our company does is we help, brands,
individuals find their ideal format.
And we do the research for them.
So we basically, for us to break down aformat takes us between 15 to 20 hours.
It's like that lengthy of a, of a process.
But what we do is we help youmatch with your ideal format, and
(24:21):
then we break down kind of theblueprint of how to execute on it.
Like those qualitative nuances thatallow you to we again, we're not
one of these people that say, oh,this is working, so go do that.
It's like.
This is working and we spend 15 to20 hours breaking down how and why
it works, but more importantly, whenit doesn't work, why it doesn't work.
we really help clients with this matchingprocess of finding their, their format,
(24:46):
and then we train them in our, in ourcreative model that we've developed
over the past eight years as well.
Daniel Rowles (24:52):
Yeah, I, I love it.
It's such a structured approach tothings that actually I can, I can really
see having read the book, how that,that would work in practice as well.
So what about people?
Where can they follow you?
What's the, what's thebest way to get in contact?
I.
Brendan Kane (25:02):
They can go to hook point.com to learn more about it.
They can, you know, I just released mythird book, the Guide to Going Viral.
If they want to just dive more into thatprocess, they can go to hook point.com/dmp
for digital marketing podcast.
And they can just follow me on Instagram.
I respond to DMS on Instagram, LinkedIn.
I produce content on YouTube,so we're pretty much everywhere.
Daniel Rowles (25:24):
Brilliant.
All right, well all of thatwill be in the show notes, so
target internet.com/podcast.
We'll put all of the linksin there to get in contact.
Brendan, what I've read of yourstuff so far has been a bit of a
complete mindset change for me, andit kind of, we were arguing things
about four podcasts ago that I'venow changed my mind on completely.
So thank you so much for all the insights.
Thank you for joining us.
I know how busy you are.
And hopefully we'll see you againon the Digital Marketing Podcast.
Brendan Kane (25:43):
Yeah.
Thanks for having me.
It was a pleasure to connect with youand everybody that tuned into this.
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