October 7, 2025 • 27 mins
In this episode of The Digital Marketing Podcast, Daniel Rowles is joined by Matthew Gardiner from World Travel Market for a special look at how the user journey is being radically reshaped, and why the travel industry offers a powerful lens for understanding the broader changes all marketers now face. From AI-powered search and agents, to disconnected content ecosystems, collapsing funnels, and new expectations for sustainability and meaning, the way users discover, evaluate, and buy has shifted. Whether you work in travel or not, this episode delivers insight into how to adapt your digital strategy for a fragmented, AI-enhanced, and purpose-driven customer journey. In This Episode: Why AI is collapsing the funnel Users no longer move in a straight line from awareness to action. Conversations with AI agents like ChatGPT are replacing multi-step journeys. Whoever owns the AI conversation, owns the customer. From connected to disconnected content The shift from traditional, connected social feeds to short-form, algorithmically driven discovery (Reels, TikToks, Shorts) has changed how we build awareness and trust. AI Overviews and Answer Engine Optimisation With 55% of Google searches now including AI summaries, Daniel explains why SEO alone is not enough and how Generative Engine Optimisation (GEO) and Answer Engine Optimisation (AEO) are the new battlegrounds. Agents are doing the work From itinerary planning to automated bookings, AI agents are reshaping how users interact with brands, often bypassing websites altogether. The new role of structured data Matthew shares how travel brands must now treat structured markup (schema) as a new kind of distribution, ensuring they are machine-readable to AI systems. Why user testing must change Daniel explains why marketers must rethink usability testing to account for personalised algorithms, behaviour-based ad targeting, and AI-powered search. Brand loyalty as a survival tactic In an age of disintermediation, programmes like Bonvoy are keeping users loyal through gamification and exclusive benefits, offering lessons for all industries. Content strategy for the AI era From FAQs and multilingual support to video answers and UGC, the path to visibility is paved with granular, high-quality, human-first content. Industry Case Study: Travel Through a detailed conversation with Matthew Gardiner, the episode explores how the travel industry has continually adapted to disruption. From the rise of OTAs and TripAdvisor to today’s challenges around AI agents, soft adventure trends, live tourism, and sustainability expectations, travel may be the canary in the coal mine but its lessons are highly applicable to every sector. Key Takeaways: AI is not just changing how people search; it is rewriting how people trust, book, and choose. Being mentioned in AI conversations is the new SEO. Structured data and FAQ-rich content are your ticket in. Agents now do things, not just recommend. Optimising for transactions and post-click experience is vital. Loyalty schemes, brand identity, and customer advocacy matter more than ever to bypass AI’s generic results. Usability testing must reflect real, personalised experiences, not idealised lab setups. 📥 Access the show notes, tools, and links at: 📩 Join the free newsletter for access to monthly live sessions:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back to the DigitalMarketing Podcast, brought to
(00:02):
you by Target internet.com.
In this episode, we're looking at thechanging user journey, and we've got
a travel industry special as well.
So welcome back, and this isgonna be an episode of two parts.
I just wanna start off just talking toyou about the really radical changes
(00:25):
that we've seen in the user journey andreally what that means to our marketing.
And then we're gonna moveinto an interview with Matthew
Gardner from World Travel Market.
To talk about, particularly, let's giveit a context from a travel point of view.
But if you're not in thetravel industry, don't panic.
This is still relevant for you becauseall of us travel, we've all experienced
booking a holiday, booking a businesstrip, whatever it might be, and
(00:49):
actually it's really interesting togo back through the history of that.
Look at how that user journey has changed.
From going directly maybe to ahotel website through to something
like booking.com and so on andso on, all the way through to the
world of AI agents to look at it.
It really is reflective of how userjourneys have changed generally.
(01:09):
So let's just talk about thata little bit because I don't
think we've seen as many changes.
The user journey as we have done inthe last couple of years, in any other
period of time, and if we even look atthe last year, it's incredible how much
things have changed and how we're gonnaneed to adjust our marketing accordingly.
First of all, if we look at the searchexperience, well, latest stats are
(01:31):
showing that's about 55% of all Googlesearches now have an AI overview.
They have an AI answer built in.
You're going to Google, you'researching, you're getting what you
need, and in many cases, you're notthen clicking through to a website.
We're only just really startingto understand what that means in
terms of search engine optimization,what we're now either calling
(01:53):
generative engine optimizationor answer engine optimization.
But if you look at clearlyfrom a user journey point of
view, what does that mean?
If people go to Google.
They get what they want and then theydon't click through to your website.
What are they doing next?
What next steps are they taking?
So we need to try and work that out.
Are they doing more searches?
Are they doing longer searches?
What they clearly are from the statsthat are coming out from Google.
(02:15):
So we need to adjust our strategies, ourtactics to go through and adjust for that.
But then we did an interviewwith Alex Schultz, the CMO of
Meta that we've just put out.
What was really interesting to me is hesaid something that really impacted me.
He said, we've been completelydisrupted in the last six years
because of the fact that actuallywe are now really not looking at
(02:35):
connected content, but we're talkingabout disconnected pieces of content.
Lemme explain what I mean by that.
So essentially social media was aseries of connected pieces of content
because you liked things, you sharedthings, you were connected to your
friends, there were businesses youfollowed, and what was recommended
to you was based on those factors.
(02:56):
But increasingly social media has becomethis whole disconnected pieces of content,
essentially short form video in theformat of tiktoks or reels and so on.
And then basically that means that AIis now predicting or reacting to what
you like and giving you more of that.
So the game has completely changedwithin social media, and that's been
happening for a number of years.
(03:17):
So.
We've seen complete changewithin the search environment.
We've seen complete change withinthe social media environment.
Advertising has fundamentally changedbecause ad platforms like Google Ads
have now moved to AI driven platformsthat aren't just working on keyword
signals, but are now looking at yourbehavior across YouTube, the things
(03:39):
that you're searching for and gettinganswers for within Google and so on.
Non keyword signals becominga much, much bigger thing.
So we've seen fundamental change andas marketers, I don't feel like a lot
of people are really reacting to that.
So at the very least, what I'd suggestyou go and do is do some user testing
and informal usability testing issomething we don't do enough of
(04:01):
and just ask people to do things.
Go and search for this particular topic.
How would you go about doing this?
What would your be behavior be like whenyou're using social media, when you get
to your website, what are you doing?
And so on.
And that can really help you untanglesome of these fundamental changes to see
how your target audience actually actwithin Google Act, within social media.
(04:21):
How do they react to ads?
And actually, if you look at theirexperience, if they do it on their
laptop, rather than doing it on yourmachine, you get a much better view
because this is one of the fundamentalflaws in usability testing at the moment,
is that I'll ask you to do something.
But it's not taking into account anyof this context we just spoke about.
(04:42):
'cause my experience of social media,my experience of ads, my experience of
search is gonna be completely differentto the next person's based on my previous
history and what I've been doing.
So it means that I need to take that intoaccount when I'm doing usability testing.
So you're better off asking somebodyto do it on their own laptop, their own
phone than you are trying to get themto do it in a nice, clean environment
(05:02):
on your computer and so on as well.
So I thought, how could we look atthis and how could we kind of step back
and how can we learn from an industry.
Has dealt with huge rounds of changesfor years and has cope with 'em very well
because the latest change that we're nowlooking at in this user journey is agents.
So the idea that yes, I can get AI togo and find me a recipe, but now I can
(05:24):
go and get it to buy that ingredientsfor me, or I can get it to go and look
at travel itineraries for me and planan entire itinerary, I could actually
get it to book that for me as well.
So what we're gonna do is take a lookat the travel industry because with the
change in search, social media, ads withagents and AI coming into the journey as
well, we're gonna look at it through thelens of travel, something we'll all have
(05:47):
some experience of, and see the lessonsthat the travel industry have learned from
and see how we might apply those to our.
Different industries.
So I'm gonna speak with Matthew Gardner.
Matthew Gardner is fromWorld Travel Market.
He'll introduce himself and thenwe'll explore a little bit both of
our experiences of working in thetravel industry, but try and see this
through the lens of your own industryand your own organization as well.
(06:09):
So over to the interview.
Daniel Rowles (06:12):
Okay.
I am here with Matthew.
Matthew, why don't you start byintroducing yourself and then
we'll get into things a little bit.
Matthew Gardiner (06:18):
I'm hugely passionate about the travel industry and I've
worked across it in numerous differentguises, innovative startups to FSE
100 businesses in tour, operating forglobal hotel chain in aviation, and
with a number of tourist boards fromOman to Fort Myers in southwest Florida.
(06:38):
Travel sparks connectionand venture discovery.
The travel sector is a wonderful industry.
It brings people together, it opensminds and it builds across the globe.
Daniel Rowles (06:50):
So lots and lots of experience in the travel world.
I mean, we crossed paths 'cause I wasspeaking at that conference in Greece.
That was a very nice gig.
They put us up in a nice hotel and itwas all in a very beautiful location.
But my o my other connection to traveland Matthew and I have spoken about this
a lot, is what a lot of the listenerswon't know as well as running target
internet and lecturing Imperial College.
I'm also on the board for visit Jersey.
(07:11):
Okay, so Jersey is the kind oftourism board for the little
tiny island that I live on.
So I kind of see hands on the challengesthat the travel industry faces as well.
'cause it is an exciting industry, butit's also one that faces an awful lot
of challenges because when money's tightit's one of the first things to go.
The industry has changed completely andreally what I wanted to get into today
(07:31):
is how that user journey has changed.
So even if not in the travel industry,there's a lot of stuff in there that we've
kind of felt across a lot of different.
Kind of user journeys as well,and I think travel is one of those
industries that has really changedthe most because of all this as well.
So why don't you talk to us abouthow you feel the user journey has
changed in travel and how that'skind of along your career, kinda
(07:53):
how maybe that's changed over time.
Matthew Gardiner (07:54):
Yeah, I mean, just in the course of my career, the travel
journey has completely transformed times.
25 years ago, went directlyto a airline or hotel website.
Then you had the online travel agency era.
I started out in the industry in2006 working for a luxury tour
(08:17):
operator, that was probably aroundthe time of the tipping point.
When the I'll call online travelagents, I'll refer to 'em as OTAs
like Expedia and booking.com andaggregators like Skyscanner to
dominate comparison the game.
The next decade, 2010 onwards, the hotelsreally fall back with direct campaigns.
(08:45):
Huge emphasis on loyaltyprograms, best rate guarantees.
And worked for Choice Hotels Duringthat, well, some of that time I
had a wonderful manager there.
Learned so much about digitalmarketing at the same time.
We suddenly had the review and socialproof area, TripAdvisor, Reviews,
influencers, Facebook Trust was reshaped.
(09:07):
shifted more and more from brandsto user generated credibility.
But despite that the OTAsstill held their group.
And now 2025, we are facinga another seismic shift.
The age of AI agents.
When it comes to ai, no one knowswhat the future holds, not even the
(09:31):
people who are training these systems.
What I do know from a travel industryperspective is the travel funnel.
Is collapsing into a conversationwith ai whoever owns that
conversation, owns the traveler.
For years, for most of my career, thatfight has been OTAs versus direct.
(09:54):
the fight is can you evenget surfaced by AI at all?
And I think it's important to say
a AI isn't just changing search, it'srewriting the rules of trust, booking,
and brand visibility in travel.
Daniel Rowles (10:08):
Yeah, I look, I think this is fascinating because if we look at this
in practical terms, very often now whenpeople are just starting the planning
process, they are gonna go to chatt PTor whatever it might be, and say, oh,
plan me a three week trip to this place.
And they'll start the whole kindof fantasizing making up kind of
things they could do and so on.
And they might start refining that down.
So I think that.
Being involved in that conversation is thefirst point, and that we need to get our.
(10:32):
Now we the three letter terminologyfor this is driving me mad.
I keep calling it GEO,generative engine optimization.
It seems like the industry shiftingto a EO, which is answer engine
optimization, whatever it is, thisextension of search optimization is
saying, are we actually showing up inthese conversations in the first place?
So that's one piece that's a new battleand that, that will evolve over time.
What I'm really interested in isin the agents where you're actually
(10:56):
getting it to do things for you, likego and book things or go and find me
the top five things on TripAdvisor,or whatever it might be because.
For me, this is another battle,another disintermediation opportunity,
sadly, because instead of goingdirectly to your website, we're
going to these online travel agents.
We're going to the online review websites.
Well, now what could happen isyou say, research me a trip.
(11:18):
I want to go to the five best places inGreece, for example over a 10 day period.
Here's my budget.
It works out in itinerary for you.
And then you say, go andfind me the best price.
And suddenly.
You've completely lost controlof where that's being booked.
'cause it could be directlyon the website, it could be an
online travel agent, it could beany number of different places.
It's only if we go back to some ofthose key principles by doing best
(11:40):
price guarantees by going through andmaking sure that we've got loyalty
programs and those kind of things thatwe're gonna have any impact on this.
And I'm seeing this across awhole range of industries, right?
Because if I say, find me a recipe,then go and buy me the ingredients
unless I define where I want itto buy that those products from.
Then potentially it's gonnachoose the supermarket it
(12:03):
uses or the retailer it uses.
And at the moment, for example, chattwo, Peter's got this relationship
with Shopify where they've justdecided to deal with Shopify.
And it's basically, it'sprioritizing Shopify brands.
So the solution to that is veryoften brand loyalty, right?
So if I am a retailer and I have got.
You know my loyalty card and I getloyalty pricing, then I'm gonna specify,
(12:23):
I want you to go to this shop, or Iwant to go you to this hotel or to
this travel agent, and so on as well.
Actually there's some brand doingthemselves some damage around
this at the moment as well.
'cause British Airways, I think is afantastic example of this, where they've
got a loyalty program, lots of peoplestick with 'em 'cause they, and they
suddenly changed it and made it muchharder to achieve certain status levels.
What does that do?
(12:44):
It means that people kind of go, I don't,I'm not gonna achieve that status now.
I'm not gonna bother being so loyal.
So it can be a, it can be areal problem, whereas I am an.
Absolute huge Bonvoy fan.
I've got, I use only, I will onlyuse Bonvoy hotels generally speaking,
unless somebody wants to send meto the hotel, please get in contact
and I'll be very happy today.
And the thing is, because ofthat, I get such a benefit.
(13:06):
I will travel further distances, Iwill stay in places that I'm probably,
it's adding loads of time onto mytravel because I want the points.
It becomes a bit of an obsession.
It becomes a, so that gamificationsuddenly becomes a big thing as well.
So, I mean, what are your takeson what it means for the industry?
Matthew Gardiner (13:22):
The content strategy shifts from those key
words to, to conversations.
So the game isn't rankingfor Hotels anymore.
It's being the source thatAI sites in a conversation.
You talked about thedistribution landscape.
Structured data is a newdistribution as AI acts like a new
global distribution system, andbrands make offers machine readable.
Daniel Rowles (13:49):
Yeah I think that whole markup scheme of
thing becomes really important.
So one of the greatexamples I saw the other day
was.
Let's take the Yosemite example,like a complete guide to
traveling the natural parks.
And then basically what it did, it had ahuge list of frequently asked questions
that they kind of worked out what arethe questions that people might be
asking, and it was things about safety.
It was things about travel times.
It was things about where to stay.
(14:09):
It was about how to movearound within the park.
It was about wildlife, all those kindof things because they'd done the
research, which is kind of widelyavailable with tools like Answer the
Public that will go through and tell youwhat are the questions related to this.
Then having the best answers to thosequestions, but also then going through
and making sure that they've kind ofdone it in a structured markup way.
(14:30):
So in the code of the website, goingthrough and saying, this is a frequently
asked question, and so on as well.
And then going through anunderstanding, actually I need
to do multi-language because thisis an international destination.
I'm gonna need to answer those questionsin different languages as well.
A really nice technique we've beenseeing that's been working really well.
Is that you answer a question in text, butyou also answer the question as a video.
(14:51):
And what you're seeing is inthese AI overviews in Google a lot
that you'll get the AI overview.
Hopefully it'll reference yourparticular website as well.
But actually it's saying relativeresources and quite often it's a video
that answers the question as well.
So I think that content strategypiece, you're absolutely right, whether
this is travel or something else thattaking that question based approach.
(15:12):
The other thing I've seen from a kind oftechnical point of view is that things
like discussion forums like Redditand Cure and all those kinda places
are being picked up more and more.
So making sure you are involvedin those conversations, you are
being mentioned in those places.
So advocacy becomes wildly importantbecause you wanna enable that army of
advocates and suddenly these things startto tie together because if you can be
(15:35):
the best answer to the question, if youthen get someone through to your hotel
or destination or whatever it might be,and you can make 'em have a brilliant
time, they're way more likely to leavea review or leave comments or leave
advice to other people online as well.
So building that community engagementcan have a really big impact on how
much you're showing up in the AIanswers from that point of view as well.
Matthew Gardiner (15:54):
I was gonna say, it's interesting that you mentioned the
national parks and the usa brand USArecently hired a Chief AI officer very
impressive lady called Jeanette Ru,who one of, one of the key things that
she does as well is actually support.
Daniel Rowles (16:16):
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things we're doing with
Visit Jersey, we're kind of lookingat, look, we've got all these people
that have amazing hotels, these peoplethat have amazing activities, is like,
how can we help them generate content?
How do we help them to go?
What are the questions that peopleare gonna ask down to that really
kind of granular level of detail.
So, if I want to go kayaking ona certain beach within Jersey.
Is there an answer of like, whatare the best kayaking routes?
(16:38):
What do I need to know about the tides?
What time of day can I go?
And all those kind of things.
So actually in enabling thatarmy of people to go and create
content and answer those questionsat a really granular level, can
have a really big impact as well.
And I think that does suddenly becomea role, like we had marketing managers,
we're probably gonna have to expand,the people that are creating content.
Exactly as you've just said.
Matthew Gardiner (16:59):
That I get that granular detail piece.
It, it's essentially the voice ofplace matters Again it's that move
content-wise, isn't it, from peoplesearching to Rome to suddenly they're
asking what's the best place for afour day trip with kids in October it's
warm, but not crowded, and, destinationsmust answer that level of granularity
(17:20):
in the content that they're producing.
Daniel Rowles (17:22):
Yeah.
And I think this is a, this hasbeen a thing for a while, right?
And I think we're just beingforced into now, which is
great because for a long time
if I went to a hotel and it said, hereare our rooms, and I'm like, well, I can
see generically what the rooms look like.
When you took a picture five yearsago when you built your website.
Matthew Gardiner (17:37):
Yeah.
Daniel Rowles (17:37):
But I dunno what the rooms look like now.
And I don't know what the, I cansee there's a walkway down to
the beach, but what does thatlook like in different seasons?
Matthew Gardiner (17:45):
Yeah.
Daniel Rowles (17:45):
And, I want to imagine this holiday and that's part
of the joy of booking a holiday.
So actually granular detail becomes somuch more massively important as well.
So, so what are kind of trends are youseeing across the industry as well?
'cause I know in world travelmarket, you do lots of talks about
all these different trends as well.
So what kind of trends are coming out?
Matthew Gardiner (18:03):
Overarching theme of the Marketing Summit is about.
Driving marketing effectiveness,building the kind of marketing resilience
that stands up to real world changeand there is a lot of change in the
world at the moment and there's alot of change with regards to travel.
I think one of the interesting trendsthat we're also exploring at World
Travel Market is rise of live tourism.
(18:25):
And how
live tourism and events are playingtheir part in being destination magnets.
And, live events have emerged aspowerful catalyst for destination appeal,
drawing visitors, not just for what aplace is, but for what happens there.
Destinations, I would say, can no longerafford to act like museum creators.
(18:46):
They need to think like event producersbecause live tourism is one of the
most powerful ways to drive demand,boost economies, and build deeper
emotional connections with audiences.
One of the episodes that youproduced, Daniel that I loved,
was the the Taylor Swift one.
and in Singapore, her six show runwas estimated to bring in between
(19:08):
300 and 500 million Singaporeandollars into the local economy.
Daniel Rowles (19:12):
What was interesting when we did that interview, it was
a kind of a slight tangential one.
It was like we got this email that said,someone from Harvard, a business you
has written a book about Taylor Swift.
Do you want to interview them?
And I was like, okay, what angle?
And it was kind of like the marketinggenius of what Taylor Swift does.
And one of the things that wasreally interesting, exactly to your
point about live tourism was that.
She allows people tolive stream her concerts.
Now you'd think, well, that's most people,they're gonna ban that because you don't
(19:33):
want, you wanna be able to buy tickets.
But actually the amount of amplificationthat causes is absolutely huge.
And if you can tie that intoyour particular destination, I
think that's a really key thing.
I mean, I. A lot of people will ask,why am I on the board to visit Jersey?
Well, the one thing is you realize is thattourism is a tide that floats all boats.
And what I mean by that is if you've gotmore tourism, you've got more flights
(19:54):
coming in, so you've got that linkfrom an island is really important.
But also you've got more bars, you'vegot more restaurants, you've got more
things to do for the general population.
There's more kids activities.
So it's really important for thelocal economy to kind of do that.
And digital can be a big enabler for that.
And you talk about, bringingmoney into the economy.
One of the things that we did withJersey was we said, well, actually, if
(20:16):
you look at the Lord of the Rings filmsand things like that they've driven
huge amounts of visitors New Zealand.
So actually that connectionbetween other media.
And how that impacts tourism as well.
And we said, well,what's Jersey famous for?
TV shows?
Well, we've got Bergeracfrom the eighties.
That was a huge thing, right?
Let's remake Berg.
Exactly.
And then we went off and we engagedwith an amazing company called Banerjee,
(20:36):
who produced the new series of rackand they used it to relaunch K TV
or UTV as it's now known as well.
And it's the most popularshow they've ever done.
And we could see you launchedRack and there's a huge spike
in people searching for Jersey.
And the main actor came out.
Civil Jersey is actually the secondstar of the show because it's such
a beautiful place, we were actuallyable to get that to a wide audience.
(20:56):
So I think this live events pieceis really interesting because.
That thing of getting people toshare the place they're in, to
amplify the beauty, the interest inthe history, whatever it might be.
I love that idea that you'renot curating a museum.
You're actually creating thoselive experiences as well.
And actually just leveraging theability of social media to kind of,
to go through and do that as well.
(21:17):
So, so what else should you thinkthat people should be looking out for?
Matthew Gardiner (21:20):
I think you also highlighted a, another key trend there,
how, tV shows and, the likes of, Netflixhave become really powerful in terms
of inspiring where people go to next.
one of the other trends that I would callout as well is sort of soft adventure.
One of the biggest shifts we'veseen post COVID is the rise of
soft adventure and the growingdemands for meaningful experiences.
(21:45):
travelers today aren't necessarilylooking to, summit Everest.
they are looking to stepout of their routine.
Even a
little, you mentioned, kayaking in, in,in jersey it's that sunset kayaking piece,
or it's learning to cook with locals.
It's
hiking to a viewpoint thatonly locals know about.
My with.
And we've experienced them on thetour operators who are growing there.
(22:08):
They aren't the ones offering thefly and Flo holidays, they're the
ones running touring programs.
The ones who are offering,come into mascot yes.
But then get out and reallysee what it's all about.
Another trend I think we haveto mention is short trips and
city breaks are struggling.
Now part of that.
(22:29):
I think of the cost of flying,and that really is putting
short breaks under pressure.
Why pay for such an expensive,flight ticket if you're only gonna
be somewhere three or four days?
So places that are doing well are placesthat are seen as extended stays, and
yes, you might, fly to Washington DCspend three or four days there, but
actually strength of the propositionis everything else that surrounds dc.
(22:50):
I guess, of course there is also a green.
Sustainability pressure as well that, isimpacting those sort of shorter trips.
sustainability is evolving from aniche to, to baseline expectation.
The say do gap remains a challenge.
And according to the world Travel andTourism Council's 2025 report bridging
(23:12):
the say do gap, whilst many travelersexpress strong support for sustainability.
In actual bookings, cost quality,numerous other factors still
outrank green credentials.
Travelers today though are increasinglymaking choices with purpose.
Sustainability is becoming a drivingforce in how people to explore the world.
Daniel Rowles (23:35):
I was really interested, you talk about some
of these things, like the softerventure piece was an interesting one.
I'll give you another examplefrom the Jersey thing.
We looked at what people had done andthey said, well, how are they taking
advantage of what they've already got?
Okay.
And if you look at the 500 in Scotland, sothe route that you can do around Scotland
and these kind of trail paths and we went,do you know what we've got in Jersey?
We've got a title trail.
We have got an island with a 50mile perimeter and we already
(23:57):
have paths you can walk it.
It's one of the mostbeautiful things in world.
So we said, okay, well let'stake that and kind of brand that
Matthew Gardiner (24:02):
Yeah.
Daniel Rowles (24:02):
and at take in aspects of what you've got and bringing those
to life a little bit more as well.
And then saying, but actually noteveryone's gonna wanna do a 50
mile walk, but there's bits of it.
You can, you do the foodie tour, yougo through and you do the history tour.
You so.
I think that's the whole thing of kindof getting off the beaten track and
getting people to understand what'skind of relevant for them as well.
I think it, and I think what'sinteresting about travel is it's
(24:22):
reflective of the broader setof what's going on in the world.
Our concerns about sustainability, ourwant to go and do something different
to get out of our stressful day byday lives, our concerns about the
cost of things and so on as well.
So I think these user journey changes.
You can look at this from a travelviewpoint and everyone's got a view
on travel 'cause everyone travels.
Also, you can apply a lot of theselessons to other aspects of marketing in
(24:45):
terms of what could we take that we'vealready got and actually leverage that
and do something better with it as well.
How has that journey changed?
What does that kind of processof having a conversation rather
than just searching, look like
Matthew Gardiner (24:55):
your title trail is a great example of that.
It's about giving identity a
sense of brand to theassets that you do have.
It's about, bringing those assetsalive and yeah giving them identity.
Daniel Rowles (25:09):
Exactly that.
So,
so go on.
Tell us then about a bit moreabout world travel Market 'cause
I know it's such an important partof the kind of travel industry.
And then if people wanna comealong how can they get involved?
Matthew Gardiner (25:19):
World Travel Market in London, it's the most influential
travel trade event out there.
Daniel Rowles (25:26):
It's a lot of fun as well.
Matthew Gardiner (25:27):
it's a lot of fun.
It's a huge amount of fun and I love it.
I love it for its sheer scale.
Around 50,000 people from every cornerof the globe descend on my home city.
All buzzing with ideas and opportunities.
The chaotic energy of it allis, I find it electrifying.
And every year I lead inspired,exhausted, absolutely exhausted the
(25:49):
amount of steps I do across Excel.
And I also more excitedthan ever about the.
Wtm is on track to, become thelargest and most influential
addition that we've had in its 45.
His year history, I dunno if you've beento the Excel center recently, but it
has just undergone a massive expansion.
(26:12):
I mean, it was big already, but youknow, they've grown excel by, it's
about 25% increase in floor space.
There's an additional 25 square meters.
World travel market is expandinginto that space, growing once more.
Brooke, who heads upthe conference program.
(26:33):
Brings so much energy to the team andtogether, we achieved a 75% increase in
attendees to the marketing summit in 2024.
So, the pressure is on thisyear to at least match that,
ideally grow it even further.
And, we have such an excitinglineup of speakers that,
I am yeah, hopefulthat's gonna be the case.
Daniel Rowles (26:51):
So what we'll do, we'll put all the links through to World
Travel Market into the show notes.
So target internet.com/podcast and you'llbetter link through and get signed up
and get attending in there as well.
And Matthew Gardner.
So thanks so much for joining us.
And talk to us about thechanging user journey in travel.
Matthew Gardiner (27:06):
Thank you so much, Daniel.
For more episodes, resources toleave a review or to get in contact,
go to target internet.com/podcast.
Welcome back to the DigitalMarketing Podcast, brought to
(00:02):
you by Target internet.com.
In this episode, we're looking at thechanging user journey, and we've got
a travel industry special as well.
So welcome back, and this isgonna be an episode of two parts.
I just wanna start off just talking toyou about the really radical changes
(00:25):
that we've seen in the user journey andreally what that means to our marketing.
And then we're gonna moveinto an interview with Matthew
Gardner from World Travel Market.
To talk about, particularly, let's giveit a context from a travel point of view.
But if you're not in thetravel industry, don't panic.
This is still relevant for you becauseall of us travel, we've all experienced
booking a holiday, booking a businesstrip, whatever it might be, and
(00:49):
actually it's really interesting togo back through the history of that.
Look at how that user journey has changed.
From going directly maybe to ahotel website through to something
like booking.com and so on andso on, all the way through to the
world of AI agents to look at it.
It really is reflective of how userjourneys have changed generally.
(01:09):
So let's just talk about thata little bit because I don't
think we've seen as many changes.
The user journey as we have done inthe last couple of years, in any other
period of time, and if we even look atthe last year, it's incredible how much
things have changed and how we're gonnaneed to adjust our marketing accordingly.
First of all, if we look at the searchexperience, well, latest stats are
(01:31):
showing that's about 55% of all Googlesearches now have an AI overview.
They have an AI answer built in.
You're going to Google, you'researching, you're getting what you
need, and in many cases, you're notthen clicking through to a website.
We're only just really startingto understand what that means in
terms of search engine optimization,what we're now either calling
(01:53):
generative engine optimizationor answer engine optimization.
But if you look at clearlyfrom a user journey point of
view, what does that mean?
If people go to Google.
They get what they want and then theydon't click through to your website.
What are they doing next?
What next steps are they taking?
So we need to try and work that out.
Are they doing more searches?
Are they doing longer searches?
What they clearly are from the statsthat are coming out from Google.
(02:15):
So we need to adjust our strategies, ourtactics to go through and adjust for that.
But then we did an interviewwith Alex Schultz, the CMO of
Meta that we've just put out.
What was really interesting to me is hesaid something that really impacted me.
He said, we've been completelydisrupted in the last six years
because of the fact that actuallywe are now really not looking at
(02:35):
connected content, but we're talkingabout disconnected pieces of content.
Lemme explain what I mean by that.
So essentially social media was aseries of connected pieces of content
because you liked things, you sharedthings, you were connected to your
friends, there were businesses youfollowed, and what was recommended
to you was based on those factors.
(02:56):
But increasingly social media has becomethis whole disconnected pieces of content,
essentially short form video in theformat of tiktoks or reels and so on.
And then basically that means that AIis now predicting or reacting to what
you like and giving you more of that.
So the game has completely changedwithin social media, and that's been
happening for a number of years.
(03:17):
So.
We've seen complete changewithin the search environment.
We've seen complete change withinthe social media environment.
Advertising has fundamentally changedbecause ad platforms like Google Ads
have now moved to AI driven platformsthat aren't just working on keyword
signals, but are now looking at yourbehavior across YouTube, the things
(03:39):
that you're searching for and gettinganswers for within Google and so on.
Non keyword signals becominga much, much bigger thing.
So we've seen fundamental change andas marketers, I don't feel like a lot
of people are really reacting to that.
So at the very least, what I'd suggestyou go and do is do some user testing
and informal usability testing issomething we don't do enough of
(04:01):
and just ask people to do things.
Go and search for this particular topic.
How would you go about doing this?
What would your be behavior be like whenyou're using social media, when you get
to your website, what are you doing?
And so on.
And that can really help you untanglesome of these fundamental changes to see
how your target audience actually actwithin Google Act, within social media.
(04:21):
How do they react to ads?
And actually, if you look at theirexperience, if they do it on their
laptop, rather than doing it on yourmachine, you get a much better view
because this is one of the fundamentalflaws in usability testing at the moment,
is that I'll ask you to do something.
But it's not taking into account anyof this context we just spoke about.
(04:42):
'cause my experience of social media,my experience of ads, my experience of
search is gonna be completely differentto the next person's based on my previous
history and what I've been doing.
So it means that I need to take that intoaccount when I'm doing usability testing.
So you're better off asking somebodyto do it on their own laptop, their own
phone than you are trying to get themto do it in a nice, clean environment
(05:02):
on your computer and so on as well.
So I thought, how could we look atthis and how could we kind of step back
and how can we learn from an industry.
Has dealt with huge rounds of changesfor years and has cope with 'em very well
because the latest change that we're nowlooking at in this user journey is agents.
So the idea that yes, I can get AI togo and find me a recipe, but now I can
(05:24):
go and get it to buy that ingredientsfor me, or I can get it to go and look
at travel itineraries for me and planan entire itinerary, I could actually
get it to book that for me as well.
So what we're gonna do is take a lookat the travel industry because with the
change in search, social media, ads withagents and AI coming into the journey as
well, we're gonna look at it through thelens of travel, something we'll all have
(05:47):
some experience of, and see the lessonsthat the travel industry have learned from
and see how we might apply those to our.
Different industries.
So I'm gonna speak with Matthew Gardner.
Matthew Gardner is fromWorld Travel Market.
He'll introduce himself and thenwe'll explore a little bit both of
our experiences of working in thetravel industry, but try and see this
through the lens of your own industryand your own organization as well.
(06:09):
So over to the interview.
Daniel Rowles (06:12):
Okay.
I am here with Matthew.
Matthew, why don't you start byintroducing yourself and then
we'll get into things a little bit.
Matthew Gardiner (06:18):
I'm hugely passionate about the travel industry and I've
worked across it in numerous differentguises, innovative startups to FSE
100 businesses in tour, operating forglobal hotel chain in aviation, and
with a number of tourist boards fromOman to Fort Myers in southwest Florida.
(06:38):
Travel sparks connectionand venture discovery.
The travel sector is a wonderful industry.
It brings people together, it opensminds and it builds across the globe.
Daniel Rowles (06:50):
So lots and lots of experience in the travel world.
I mean, we crossed paths 'cause I wasspeaking at that conference in Greece.
That was a very nice gig.
They put us up in a nice hotel and itwas all in a very beautiful location.
But my o my other connection to traveland Matthew and I have spoken about this
a lot, is what a lot of the listenerswon't know as well as running target
internet and lecturing Imperial College.
I'm also on the board for visit Jersey.
(07:11):
Okay, so Jersey is the kind oftourism board for the little
tiny island that I live on.
So I kind of see hands on the challengesthat the travel industry faces as well.
'cause it is an exciting industry, butit's also one that faces an awful lot
of challenges because when money's tightit's one of the first things to go.
The industry has changed completely andreally what I wanted to get into today
(07:31):
is how that user journey has changed.
So even if not in the travel industry,there's a lot of stuff in there that we've
kind of felt across a lot of different.
Kind of user journeys as well,and I think travel is one of those
industries that has really changedthe most because of all this as well.
So why don't you talk to us abouthow you feel the user journey has
changed in travel and how that'skind of along your career, kinda
(07:53):
how maybe that's changed over time.
Matthew Gardiner (07:54):
Yeah, I mean, just in the course of my career, the travel
journey has completely transformed times.
25 years ago, went directlyto a airline or hotel website.
Then you had the online travel agency era.
I started out in the industry in2006 working for a luxury tour
(08:17):
operator, that was probably aroundthe time of the tipping point.
When the I'll call online travelagents, I'll refer to 'em as OTAs
like Expedia and booking.com andaggregators like Skyscanner to
dominate comparison the game.
The next decade, 2010 onwards, the hotelsreally fall back with direct campaigns.
(08:45):
Huge emphasis on loyaltyprograms, best rate guarantees.
And worked for Choice Hotels Duringthat, well, some of that time I
had a wonderful manager there.
Learned so much about digitalmarketing at the same time.
We suddenly had the review and socialproof area, TripAdvisor, Reviews,
influencers, Facebook Trust was reshaped.
(09:07):
shifted more and more from brandsto user generated credibility.
But despite that the OTAsstill held their group.
And now 2025, we are facinga another seismic shift.
The age of AI agents.
When it comes to ai, no one knowswhat the future holds, not even the
(09:31):
people who are training these systems.
What I do know from a travel industryperspective is the travel funnel.
Is collapsing into a conversationwith ai whoever owns that
conversation, owns the traveler.
For years, for most of my career, thatfight has been OTAs versus direct.
(09:54):
the fight is can you evenget surfaced by AI at all?
And I think it's important to say
a AI isn't just changing search, it'srewriting the rules of trust, booking,
and brand visibility in travel.
Daniel Rowles (10:08):
Yeah, I look, I think this is fascinating because if we look at this
in practical terms, very often now whenpeople are just starting the planning
process, they are gonna go to chatt PTor whatever it might be, and say, oh,
plan me a three week trip to this place.
And they'll start the whole kindof fantasizing making up kind of
things they could do and so on.
And they might start refining that down.
So I think that.
Being involved in that conversation is thefirst point, and that we need to get our.
(10:32):
Now we the three letter terminologyfor this is driving me mad.
I keep calling it GEO,generative engine optimization.
It seems like the industry shiftingto a EO, which is answer engine
optimization, whatever it is, thisextension of search optimization is
saying, are we actually showing up inthese conversations in the first place?
So that's one piece that's a new battleand that, that will evolve over time.
What I'm really interested in isin the agents where you're actually
(10:56):
getting it to do things for you, likego and book things or go and find me
the top five things on TripAdvisor,or whatever it might be because.
For me, this is another battle,another disintermediation opportunity,
sadly, because instead of goingdirectly to your website, we're
going to these online travel agents.
We're going to the online review websites.
Well, now what could happen isyou say, research me a trip.
(11:18):
I want to go to the five best places inGreece, for example over a 10 day period.
Here's my budget.
It works out in itinerary for you.
And then you say, go andfind me the best price.
And suddenly.
You've completely lost controlof where that's being booked.
'cause it could be directlyon the website, it could be an
online travel agent, it could beany number of different places.
It's only if we go back to some ofthose key principles by doing best
(11:40):
price guarantees by going through andmaking sure that we've got loyalty
programs and those kind of things thatwe're gonna have any impact on this.
And I'm seeing this across awhole range of industries, right?
Because if I say, find me a recipe,then go and buy me the ingredients
unless I define where I want itto buy that those products from.
Then potentially it's gonnachoose the supermarket it
(12:03):
uses or the retailer it uses.
And at the moment, for example, chattwo, Peter's got this relationship
with Shopify where they've justdecided to deal with Shopify.
And it's basically, it'sprioritizing Shopify brands.
So the solution to that is veryoften brand loyalty, right?
So if I am a retailer and I have got.
You know my loyalty card and I getloyalty pricing, then I'm gonna specify,
(12:23):
I want you to go to this shop, or Iwant to go you to this hotel or to
this travel agent, and so on as well.
Actually there's some brand doingthemselves some damage around
this at the moment as well.
'cause British Airways, I think is afantastic example of this, where they've
got a loyalty program, lots of peoplestick with 'em 'cause they, and they
suddenly changed it and made it muchharder to achieve certain status levels.
What does that do?
(12:44):
It means that people kind of go, I don't,I'm not gonna achieve that status now.
I'm not gonna bother being so loyal.
So it can be a, it can be areal problem, whereas I am an.
Absolute huge Bonvoy fan.
I've got, I use only, I will onlyuse Bonvoy hotels generally speaking,
unless somebody wants to send meto the hotel, please get in contact
and I'll be very happy today.
And the thing is, because ofthat, I get such a benefit.
(13:06):
I will travel further distances, Iwill stay in places that I'm probably,
it's adding loads of time onto mytravel because I want the points.
It becomes a bit of an obsession.
It becomes a, so that gamificationsuddenly becomes a big thing as well.
So, I mean, what are your takeson what it means for the industry?
Matthew Gardiner (13:22):
The content strategy shifts from those key
words to, to conversations.
So the game isn't rankingfor Hotels anymore.
It's being the source thatAI sites in a conversation.
You talked about thedistribution landscape.
Structured data is a newdistribution as AI acts like a new
global distribution system, andbrands make offers machine readable.
Daniel Rowles (13:49):
Yeah I think that whole markup scheme of
thing becomes really important.
So one of the greatexamples I saw the other day
was.
Let's take the Yosemite example,like a complete guide to
traveling the natural parks.
And then basically what it did, it had ahuge list of frequently asked questions
that they kind of worked out what arethe questions that people might be
asking, and it was things about safety.
It was things about travel times.
It was things about where to stay.
(14:09):
It was about how to movearound within the park.
It was about wildlife, all those kindof things because they'd done the
research, which is kind of widelyavailable with tools like Answer the
Public that will go through and tell youwhat are the questions related to this.
Then having the best answers to thosequestions, but also then going through
and making sure that they've kind ofdone it in a structured markup way.
(14:30):
So in the code of the website, goingthrough and saying, this is a frequently
asked question, and so on as well.
And then going through anunderstanding, actually I need
to do multi-language because thisis an international destination.
I'm gonna need to answer those questionsin different languages as well.
A really nice technique we've beenseeing that's been working really well.
Is that you answer a question in text, butyou also answer the question as a video.
(14:51):
And what you're seeing is inthese AI overviews in Google a lot
that you'll get the AI overview.
Hopefully it'll reference yourparticular website as well.
But actually it's saying relativeresources and quite often it's a video
that answers the question as well.
So I think that content strategypiece, you're absolutely right, whether
this is travel or something else thattaking that question based approach.
(15:12):
The other thing I've seen from a kind oftechnical point of view is that things
like discussion forums like Redditand Cure and all those kinda places
are being picked up more and more.
So making sure you are involvedin those conversations, you are
being mentioned in those places.
So advocacy becomes wildly importantbecause you wanna enable that army of
advocates and suddenly these things startto tie together because if you can be
(15:35):
the best answer to the question, if youthen get someone through to your hotel
or destination or whatever it might be,and you can make 'em have a brilliant
time, they're way more likely to leavea review or leave comments or leave
advice to other people online as well.
So building that community engagementcan have a really big impact on how
much you're showing up in the AIanswers from that point of view as well.
Matthew Gardiner (15:54):
I was gonna say, it's interesting that you mentioned the
national parks and the usa brand USArecently hired a Chief AI officer very
impressive lady called Jeanette Ru,who one of, one of the key things that
she does as well is actually support.
Daniel Rowles (16:16):
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things we're doing with
Visit Jersey, we're kind of lookingat, look, we've got all these people
that have amazing hotels, these peoplethat have amazing activities, is like,
how can we help them generate content?
How do we help them to go?
What are the questions that peopleare gonna ask down to that really
kind of granular level of detail.
So, if I want to go kayaking ona certain beach within Jersey.
Is there an answer of like, whatare the best kayaking routes?
(16:38):
What do I need to know about the tides?
What time of day can I go?
And all those kind of things.
So actually in enabling thatarmy of people to go and create
content and answer those questionsat a really granular level, can
have a really big impact as well.
And I think that does suddenly becomea role, like we had marketing managers,
we're probably gonna have to expand,the people that are creating content.
Exactly as you've just said.
Matthew Gardiner (16:59):
That I get that granular detail piece.
It, it's essentially the voice ofplace matters Again it's that move
content-wise, isn't it, from peoplesearching to Rome to suddenly they're
asking what's the best place for afour day trip with kids in October it's
warm, but not crowded, and, destinationsmust answer that level of granularity
(17:20):
in the content that they're producing.
Daniel Rowles (17:22):
Yeah.
And I think this is a, this hasbeen a thing for a while, right?
And I think we're just beingforced into now, which is
great because for a long time
if I went to a hotel and it said, hereare our rooms, and I'm like, well, I can
see generically what the rooms look like.
When you took a picture five yearsago when you built your website.
Matthew Gardiner (17:37):
Yeah.
Daniel Rowles (17:37):
But I dunno what the rooms look like now.
And I don't know what the, I cansee there's a walkway down to
the beach, but what does thatlook like in different seasons?
Matthew Gardiner (17:45):
Yeah.
Daniel Rowles (17:45):
And, I want to imagine this holiday and that's part
of the joy of booking a holiday.
So actually granular detail becomes somuch more massively important as well.
So, so what are kind of trends are youseeing across the industry as well?
'cause I know in world travelmarket, you do lots of talks about
all these different trends as well.
So what kind of trends are coming out?
Matthew Gardiner (18:03):
Overarching theme of the Marketing Summit is about.
Driving marketing effectiveness,building the kind of marketing resilience
that stands up to real world changeand there is a lot of change in the
world at the moment and there's alot of change with regards to travel.
I think one of the interesting trendsthat we're also exploring at World
Travel Market is rise of live tourism.
(18:25):
And how
live tourism and events are playingtheir part in being destination magnets.
And, live events have emerged aspowerful catalyst for destination appeal,
drawing visitors, not just for what aplace is, but for what happens there.
Destinations, I would say, can no longerafford to act like museum creators.
(18:46):
They need to think like event producersbecause live tourism is one of the
most powerful ways to drive demand,boost economies, and build deeper
emotional connections with audiences.
One of the episodes that youproduced, Daniel that I loved,
was the the Taylor Swift one.
and in Singapore, her six show runwas estimated to bring in between
(19:08):
300 and 500 million Singaporeandollars into the local economy.
Daniel Rowles (19:12):
What was interesting when we did that interview, it was
a kind of a slight tangential one.
It was like we got this email that said,someone from Harvard, a business you
has written a book about Taylor Swift.
Do you want to interview them?
And I was like, okay, what angle?
And it was kind of like the marketinggenius of what Taylor Swift does.
And one of the things that wasreally interesting, exactly to your
point about live tourism was that.
She allows people tolive stream her concerts.
Now you'd think, well, that's most people,they're gonna ban that because you don't
(19:33):
want, you wanna be able to buy tickets.
But actually the amount of amplificationthat causes is absolutely huge.
And if you can tie that intoyour particular destination, I
think that's a really key thing.
I mean, I. A lot of people will ask,why am I on the board to visit Jersey?
Well, the one thing is you realize is thattourism is a tide that floats all boats.
And what I mean by that is if you've gotmore tourism, you've got more flights
(19:54):
coming in, so you've got that linkfrom an island is really important.
But also you've got more bars, you'vegot more restaurants, you've got more
things to do for the general population.
There's more kids activities.
So it's really important for thelocal economy to kind of do that.
And digital can be a big enabler for that.
And you talk about, bringingmoney into the economy.
One of the things that we did withJersey was we said, well, actually, if
(20:16):
you look at the Lord of the Rings filmsand things like that they've driven
huge amounts of visitors New Zealand.
So actually that connectionbetween other media.
And how that impacts tourism as well.
And we said, well,what's Jersey famous for?
TV shows?
Well, we've got Bergeracfrom the eighties.
That was a huge thing, right?
Let's remake Berg.
Exactly.
And then we went off and we engagedwith an amazing company called Banerjee,
(20:36):
who produced the new series of rackand they used it to relaunch K TV
or UTV as it's now known as well.
And it's the most popularshow they've ever done.
And we could see you launchedRack and there's a huge spike
in people searching for Jersey.
And the main actor came out.
Civil Jersey is actually the secondstar of the show because it's such
a beautiful place, we were actuallyable to get that to a wide audience.
(20:56):
So I think this live events pieceis really interesting because.
That thing of getting people toshare the place they're in, to
amplify the beauty, the interest inthe history, whatever it might be.
I love that idea that you'renot curating a museum.
You're actually creating thoselive experiences as well.
And actually just leveraging theability of social media to kind of,
to go through and do that as well.
(21:17):
So, so what else should you thinkthat people should be looking out for?
Matthew Gardiner (21:20):
I think you also highlighted a, another key trend there,
how, tV shows and, the likes of, Netflixhave become really powerful in terms
of inspiring where people go to next.
one of the other trends that I would callout as well is sort of soft adventure.
One of the biggest shifts we'veseen post COVID is the rise of
soft adventure and the growingdemands for meaningful experiences.
(21:45):
travelers today aren't necessarilylooking to, summit Everest.
they are looking to stepout of their routine.
Even a
little, you mentioned, kayaking in, in,in jersey it's that sunset kayaking piece,
or it's learning to cook with locals.
It's
hiking to a viewpoint thatonly locals know about.
My with.
And we've experienced them on thetour operators who are growing there.
(22:08):
They aren't the ones offering thefly and Flo holidays, they're the
ones running touring programs.
The ones who are offering,come into mascot yes.
But then get out and reallysee what it's all about.
Another trend I think we haveto mention is short trips and
city breaks are struggling.
Now part of that.
(22:29):
I think of the cost of flying,and that really is putting
short breaks under pressure.
Why pay for such an expensive,flight ticket if you're only gonna
be somewhere three or four days?
So places that are doing well are placesthat are seen as extended stays, and
yes, you might, fly to Washington DCspend three or four days there, but
actually strength of the propositionis everything else that surrounds dc.
(22:50):
I guess, of course there is also a green.
Sustainability pressure as well that, isimpacting those sort of shorter trips.
sustainability is evolving from aniche to, to baseline expectation.
The say do gap remains a challenge.
And according to the world Travel andTourism Council's 2025 report bridging
(23:12):
the say do gap, whilst many travelersexpress strong support for sustainability.
In actual bookings, cost quality,numerous other factors still
outrank green credentials.
Travelers today though are increasinglymaking choices with purpose.
Sustainability is becoming a drivingforce in how people to explore the world.
Daniel Rowles (23:35):
I was really interested, you talk about some
of these things, like the softerventure piece was an interesting one.
I'll give you another examplefrom the Jersey thing.
We looked at what people had done andthey said, well, how are they taking
advantage of what they've already got?
Okay.
And if you look at the 500 in Scotland, sothe route that you can do around Scotland
and these kind of trail paths and we went,do you know what we've got in Jersey?
We've got a title trail.
We have got an island with a 50mile perimeter and we already
(23:57):
have paths you can walk it.
It's one of the mostbeautiful things in world.
So we said, okay, well let'stake that and kind of brand that
Matthew Gardiner (24:02):
Yeah.
Daniel Rowles (24:02):
and at take in aspects of what you've got and bringing those
to life a little bit more as well.
And then saying, but actually noteveryone's gonna wanna do a 50
mile walk, but there's bits of it.
You can, you do the foodie tour, yougo through and you do the history tour.
You so.
I think that's the whole thing of kindof getting off the beaten track and
getting people to understand what'skind of relevant for them as well.
I think it, and I think what'sinteresting about travel is it's
(24:22):
reflective of the broader setof what's going on in the world.
Our concerns about sustainability, ourwant to go and do something different
to get out of our stressful day byday lives, our concerns about the
cost of things and so on as well.
So I think these user journey changes.
You can look at this from a travelviewpoint and everyone's got a view
on travel 'cause everyone travels.
Also, you can apply a lot of theselessons to other aspects of marketing in
(24:45):
terms of what could we take that we'vealready got and actually leverage that
and do something better with it as well.
How has that journey changed?
What does that kind of processof having a conversation rather
than just searching, look like
Matthew Gardiner (24:55):
your title trail is a great example of that.
It's about giving identity a
sense of brand to theassets that you do have.
It's about, bringing those assetsalive and yeah giving them identity.
Daniel Rowles (25:09):
Exactly that.
So,
so go on.
Tell us then about a bit moreabout world travel Market 'cause
I know it's such an important partof the kind of travel industry.
And then if people wanna comealong how can they get involved?
Matthew Gardiner (25:19):
World Travel Market in London, it's the most influential
travel trade event out there.
Daniel Rowles (25:26):
It's a lot of fun as well.
Matthew Gardiner (25:27):
it's a lot of fun.
It's a huge amount of fun and I love it.
I love it for its sheer scale.
Around 50,000 people from every cornerof the globe descend on my home city.
All buzzing with ideas and opportunities.
The chaotic energy of it allis, I find it electrifying.
And every year I lead inspired,exhausted, absolutely exhausted the
(25:49):
amount of steps I do across Excel.
And I also more excitedthan ever about the.
Wtm is on track to, become thelargest and most influential
addition that we've had in its 45.
His year history, I dunno if you've beento the Excel center recently, but it
has just undergone a massive expansion.
(26:12):
I mean, it was big already, but youknow, they've grown excel by, it's
about 25% increase in floor space.
There's an additional 25 square meters.
World travel market is expandinginto that space, growing once more.
Brooke, who heads upthe conference program.
(26:33):
Brings so much energy to the team andtogether, we achieved a 75% increase in
attendees to the marketing summit in 2024.
So, the pressure is on thisyear to at least match that,
ideally grow it even further.
And, we have such an excitinglineup of speakers that,
I am yeah, hopefulthat's gonna be the case.
Daniel Rowles (26:51):
So what we'll do, we'll put all the links through to World
Travel Market into the show notes.
So target internet.com/podcast and you'llbetter link through and get signed up
and get attending in there as well.
And Matthew Gardner.
So thanks so much for joining us.
And talk to us about thechanging user journey in travel.
Matthew Gardiner (27:06):
Thank you so much, Daniel.
For more episodes, resources toleave a review or to get in contact,
go to target internet.com/podcast.
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