July 2, 2025 • 24 mins
What role should celebrity culture have when it comes to veganism? From influencers becoming ‘ex-vegans’ for engagement, to celebrities backtracking on their vegan claims, the conversation around veganism is often diminished when it becomes absorbed within the fickle nature of fame and online content cycles.
In today’s episode, I explore the positives and negatives with using celebrity endorsements to add legitimacy to veganism.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Celebrities can undeniably have a significant
impact on how people perceivedifferent issues, veganism
included.
But how much value should we asvegans place on celebrity
endorsements of veganism?
And what does this mean for whencelebrities announce that
they're no longer vegan?
This is the Disclosure Podcast.
(00:50):
Welcome to the DisclosurePodcast.
If you enjoy this episode andthe work that I'm doing here,
then please consider checkingout my sub stack where I post
regular articles.
You can also support my work bybecoming a paid member of my sub
stack through which you willalso gain access to weekly
articles or by making a donationthrough my website.
Links for everything can befound in this episode's show
(01:12):
notes.
For those of you who do supportmy work, thank you so much.
I am incredibly grateful andappreciate it very much.
Leaving a review for thispodcast is also really helpful
and encourages more people tolisten to it.
I hope you find this episodeinteresting and informative, and
thank you for listening.
So let's talk about celebrities.
(01:32):
And I think one of the bestplaces to start is to probably
discuss a little bit about howthe role of celebrity has
changed.
Celebrities in decades gone bywere often movie stars,
musicians, people who hadreached sort of the pinnacle in
their respective field, and as aconsequence, were bringing in
enrichment and entertainment andjoy into people's lives through
(01:53):
the varying mediums they wereengaging in.
Maybe sometimes they werecelebrities because of an
invention or because of ascientific discovery or whatever
it may be.
But these were people who'dreached public notoriety mostly
for doing positive things thatprovided enrichment.
And as a consequence, peoplelooked up to them because they
aspired to have the success thatthey'd had.
(02:14):
They aspired to reach thepinnacle of their respective
career aspirations.
And celebrities were role modelsthat could look up to because
they had reached those peaksthemselves.
The perception that we have ofcelebrities has undeniably
changed.
There was a time, I believe,where celebrities probably
carried more weight than they donow, but I'm not sure how much
(02:35):
weight celebrities necessarilycarry to the everyday person
anymore.
And social media is a big reasonwhy that perception has changed.
It's kind of this...
irony in a way where we becamemore connected to celebrities.
And as a consequence, we startedto view them with less, I don't
know what the word would be,appreciation, not necessarily
less appreciation because westill appreciated their art,
(02:58):
let's say, but with less awe,perhaps, would be a good way of
framing it.
Celebrities have often existedoutside of the everyday society.
They have existed outside ofsort of the world that we're
used to.
And before, I think that thatcreated this sort of idea of
them being automaticallyaspirational and inspirational
(03:20):
because they had sort oftranscended beyond the world
that we exist within, let's say.
And I think historically thatmight have added credibility to
the things they said andbelieved.
But now I think the inverse istrue.
And we view them as being out oftouch, disconnected, detached,
lacking understanding aboutreality.
the trials and tribulations ofeveryday society and what we as
(03:41):
regular ordinary people have toendure and the consequences of
the world around us and what itmeans to exist in those
consequences, we now view thefact that celebrities exist
outside of the regular societyas a reason to not really value
or view their opinions and viewswith much credibility or care.
And social media has been a bigpart of that because that
(04:03):
connection to celebrities hasallowed them to do things which
has certainly raised someeyebrows.
And one of the best examples ofthis was during the pandemic
when a collection of celebritiesspearheaded by the actress Gal
Gadot has decided to sing acover of Imagine by John Lennon.
And it was the mostcringe-inducing thing that you
(04:26):
could ever see.
And it was so tone deaf.
And it just really spoke to howdetached these people were from
the everyday experiences ofpeople during that time.
The idea that celebrities weregoing to unify us all by singing
this song by John Lennon.
And it was going to bring ustogether and kind of reinforce
that we're all in this together.
But these people are living intheir mansions and have
(04:48):
everything very comfortable forthem.
It just really rubbed us all upthe wrong way, as well as being
super cringy.
And I remember during thepandemic, there was this video,
I think, of Madonna singing.
talking about how COVID was thegreat equalizer.
SPEAKER_00 (05:04):
That's the thing about COVID-19, it doesn't care
about how rich you are.
It's the great equalizer andwhat's terrible about it is
what's great about it.
SPEAKER_01 (05:13):
And you just thought, wow, this is...
This is deluded.
The idea that because we're allin a pandemic, that means we're
all experiencing the pandemicthe same.
That it means that the risk ofthe pandemic is equal for all of
us because we are all in it.
It's just so absurd that youcan't help but look at these
people and think, you've lostthe grounded connection that you
(05:33):
need to be able to actuallymeaningfully engage with with
your fans, let alone people whoaren't your fans.
You've become so distant fromthe realities of the world that
you've become so disconnectedand as a consequence, if we
widen that out, how can peoplereally engage with what these
people are saying and reallycare about the views and values
they have when they clearly areso disconnected?
(05:54):
And I think social media hasreally reinforced that and the
pandemic in particular sort ofreally hammered that point home.
And obviously the right havereally weaponized that sentiment
in such ways to try and diminishsort of environmental measures
because obviously celebritiescome out and talk about the
environment like LeonardoDiCaprio, let's say, and it's
very easy to point the finger atthese people and say, well, hang
(06:16):
on a minute, you have a privatejet and you have a yacht.
And if you really cared aboutthe environment, you wouldn't be
doing these things.
What's interesting about that isobviously there's truth to that,
but this sort of label ofhypocrite that we like to thrust
onto celebrities is a little bitself-defeating because just
because a celebrity may engagein certain things doesn't
disqualify the view that theyhave.
(06:36):
And what I mean by that isLeonardo DiCaprio could probably
do a lot more for theenvironment than he does.
But that doesn't mean that whenhe says we're in a climate
crisis, he's incorrect.
But because of the way that weview our relationship with
celebrities and because of theway we view our relationship
with the idea of hypocrisy, theeasiest thing to do is hear
Leonardo DiCaprio say somethingabout the climate crisis and go,
(06:57):
oh, but you do this.
But the fact that he does thatdoesn't invalidate the message
of what he's saying.
It just potentially means thathe should also be looking more
at himself and what he can dodifferently.
And that's part of the problemwith how we weaponize celebrity
culture against the celebritiesthemselves is sometimes they'll
be talking about things that areimportant.
Sometimes celebrities will talkabout these things and then we
kind of ignore them becausethey're a celebrity or because
(07:17):
they don't live a perfect lifethemselves.
And that can somewhat mean thatwe inadvertently delegitimize
the message that they'reactually trying to produce, when
in fact what they're sayingmight be incredibly valid, but
people don't want to engage withit meaningfully and so find
these ways to try and disengagefrom what it is that they're
saying.
So I guess what I'm trying tosay is that our relationship
with celebrities has undeniablychanged.
And not only has it undeniablychanged, but maybe we feel more
(07:40):
hostile towards celebrities thanwe once did.
But the flip side to this isthere's a new type of celebrity
which has kind of taken over andwe find far more influential
now, which is of course thesocial media influence of that
type of celebrity.
People like Mr.
Beast or Jake Paul or whoever itmay be, KSI is another example.
These are the people who arereally shaping particularly
(08:02):
young people around the world.
It's not the George Clooneys orthe Taylor Swifts even
necessarily, although sheprobably has more of an impact
than George Clooney.
It is actually the Mr.
Beasts.
It is the Jake Pauls.
It is these people who areshaping particularly young
people.
Now this is really dangerous fora number of reasons, primarily
because a lot of the contentthese people produce is awful,
(08:22):
like just awful, pushing reallybad values on people, bad
concepts.
And so undeniably, I thinkthere's many reasons why we
should be somewhat troubled andconcerned around how the role of
celebrity has changed, notbecause it is better to follow
what a more traditionalcelebrity says or does, but
(08:42):
because the new modern daycelebrity is engaging with their
viewers in a way whichultimately could be more
harmful.
And I think also the sort ofproblem with social media
influences is the illusion ofrelatability, the illusion of
authenticity.
Social media is not authentic.
It's not real.
It's not a depiction of theactual lived experiences of
(09:05):
those who use it.
If anything, it's quite theopposite.
It is a heavily manufactured,heavily warped and twisted and
manipulated version of life.
But because we view them asbeing more authentic and more
quote-unquote real, that meansthey can sometimes carry more
weight, which can becomeespecially dangerous because we
(09:25):
might then believe what theyhave to say more.
But let's talk about celebritiesand V veganism specifically
because that's what this to mebecause the reason I'm vegan is
(09:52):
for the animals and that doesn'tchange whether a celebrity
agrees with me or not on that.
And also because the benefits ofa plant-based diet are
substantiated by the evidence.
And again, that doesn't changebased on the view of a
celebrity.
Now I know that we like to feelvalidated and one way that we
can feel validated is by havinga celebrity release a statement
(10:13):
or say something positivelyabout veganism.
We all like that as vegans.
I like it when someone who Ilike, who I respect, when I find
out that they're they're avegan.
Ah, this is great.
I'm really happy that they're avegan.
But I think the reason why I'mhappy about it is because it
creates kind of a bit of aconnection in a way where it
makes me like them more becauseon a value perspective, we have
something in alignment.
(10:34):
But ultimately the perception Ihave of veganism is not altered
because the celebrity is vegan.
My perception of the celebritymight be altered because they're
vegan.
So it's not the vegan thing thatmatters.
It's my perception of thecelebrity that changes.
And this is important becauseoften Within the vegan
community, there are posts thatget shared around, which are
like quotes from celebrities.
(10:55):
And the quote is like, I'verecently started eating
plant-based and I feel amazing.
I have so much more energy froma certain celebrity, let's say.
And sometimes that gets sharedaround and we go, wow, this is
great.
This person says that aplant-based diet has made them
feel better.
And the thing is we share thataround because we think that
that's a good thing forveganism.
In the sense of people will seethat and say, oh, this person
(11:17):
says that, therefore veganism isgood.
And in essence, what we're doingis we're saying that the
celebrity should shape theimpression that we have of
veganism, not that veganismshould shape the impression we
have of the celebrity.
Now, this is dangerous becauseif we place the credibility of
veganism on how people perceiveit or how people engage with it
(11:37):
or their views of it, we'reactually undermining the
credibility of veganism, whichon its own is enough to stand on
its own feet.
It doesn't matter if a certaincelebrity feels better on a
plant-based diet.
What matters is that aplant-based diet is supported by
the scientific evidence and thatveganism is in opposition to the
exploitation of animals.
(11:58):
That's what matters, not theanecdotes of any one celebrity.
And some of you might belistening and saying, seems a
little bit pedantic.
Does it really matter?
Is it not just a good thing if acelebrity says something about
veganism that's positive and weshare it around?
Why would that matter?
But the reason I think itmatters is because When we share
these quotes from celebrities,or when celebrities say things,
(12:20):
we're in essence takinganecdotes from them, and we're
using those anecdotes asevidence.
But anecdotes are very poorforms of evidence.
In fact, they're among theweakest forms of evidence that
we can use.
But when we use anecdotes to tryand reaffirm our position, we're
opening ourselves up to haveanecdotes used against us.
Now Lizzo is a great example,Lizzo the singer.
(12:41):
She had gone vegan, she wasspeaking positively about
veganism, and then she releaseda reel saying she's no longer a
vegan and she has quote unquotereintroduced protein into her
diet.
Now, This is obviously a reallyfrustrating thing.
She made this whole reel talkingabout how she's no longer vegan.
And obviously people will seethat.
And what will happen then istheir view of veganism will be
(13:03):
shaped by the celebrity.
In other words, they'll go, oh,well, Lizzo said that she didn't
feel good on a plant-based dietat all.
She feels better now that she'sno longer on a plant-based diet.
This is reaffirming to me that aplant-based diet is not healthy
because of this anecdote fromthis celebrity, which has lots
of views, lots of engagement.
But that's a real issue for usbecause what it means is that
People's perception of thisvitally important movement for
(13:27):
animals fundamentally is beingdistorted by the anecdotes of
celebrities who ate aplant-based diet and then have
spoken ill of it because ofpseudo-health reasons or because
of...
Whatever reason it may be.
And the reason I saypseudo-health reasons is because
Lizzo was talking aboutpseudoscience and bogus health
(13:49):
claims throughout her I'm nolonger vegan reel.
And you see that a lot withinex-vegans.
They talk about bogus healthclaims, just anecdotes that are
unsubstantiated and claims whichare not grounded in rationality
or evidence.
But this is why I think it'sreally important that the way
that we as vegans engage withcelebrities from the perspective
(14:09):
of their endorsements is reallyimportant.
Because we don't want to beguilty of the same type of
messaging or the same type ofpersuasion, let's say.
So when I think of celebritiesdoing good things for animals, I
think of people like JoaquinPhoenix, for example.
I think of people like Moby.
I used to think of people likeBella Ramsey.
(14:30):
Sadly, Bella has come out andsaid that they're no longer...
vegan and that they're eatingeggs.
And this is really upsetting.
Of course it's upsetting.
I worked with Bella on a projectlast year called Matilda and the
Brave Escape.
And Bella did the voiceover forthat short film.
And the short film is aboutMatilda the pig, who is a real
(14:51):
pig, who escaped from a farm inthe UK and is now living at the
Surge Sanctuary.
And at the Surge Sanctuary,obviously we have a wide range
of animals who've been rescuedfrom animal farms, including
animals who've come from eggfarms.
And so it's just really...
It's really upsetting, thatsituation, for me.
And I really hope that Bellabecomes a vegan, a true ethical
vegan, who would not want to eateggs.
(15:13):
It's just such a shame that thishas happened.
And for me personally, ofcourse, was really upsetting.
But it's really upsetting whenanyone stops being vegan, not
because of the person, butbecause of what it means for the
animals.
And that's the thing.
I'm not upset about Bella nolonger being vegan because Bella
is no longer vegan.
I'm upset about Bella eatingeggs because eating eggs causes
harm to animals.
(15:34):
to egg-laying hens.
It causes suffering to animals.
That's what's upsetting aboutit.
And I suppose that is the broadpoint around veganism and
celebrities.
When a celebrity goes vegan, thereason why we should be happy is
because a human being is nolonger participating in these
systems of animal exploitation.
That's what should make ushappy.
And the reason why we're sadwhen they announce they're no
(15:56):
longer vegan is because a humanbeing is now partaking again in
these systems of exploitationtowards animals.
And in the case of ex-vegans whoannounce it publicly, it upsets
us because we know that that canhave a negative influence on
others, particularly if thosepeople are maybe social media
influencers who carry anaudience who views them as being
more relatable and authentic andwho is more likely to listen to
(16:16):
what it is that they have tosay.
Now, that doesn't mean thatcelebrities can't have a
positive influence.
Of course they can.
And when celebrities speak outabout animal rights, like Moby
does, for example, that ispowerful and it will influence
people in a positive way.
Even if it doesn't make themvegan, I think the power of a
celebrity speaking about animalrights is that animal rights is
still not viewed as being asimportant as it needs to be.
(16:38):
And so even just conversationsaround it are vital because it's
providing oxygen to an issuethat often doesn't have enough
oxygen provided to it.
It's creating conversation in asituation where it might not
normally happen.
And so having people withcelebrities who have platforms
speaking about issues, it's alsoabout the fact that it raises
awareness around those issues.
(16:59):
And that is powerful becauseraising awareness is the name of
the game when it comes to thingslike veganism, because we want
people to engage with theseissues and have to think about
them in a way that they maybehaven't previously.
we're not talking about veganismand the word vegan and the
phrase animal rights and thetrue meaning and ethos and
principles behind those thingsis not brought into the wider
public discourse, then thatmeans that people won't engage
(17:20):
with it.
And if they don't engage withit, they're not going to change
and become vegan themselves.
However, that works in the caseof celebrities talking about
animal rights and ethicalveganism, which is what veganism
is.
But so much around celebrityculture and veganism is about
diet.
And this is another aspect ofcelebrities and veganism, which
I think is really important.
(17:41):
And a lot of the celebrityconversation around veganism has
reduced veganism to a dietbecause that's often how it's
been centered.
Veganism is not a diet.
And one of the issues aroundthis particular conversation is
that the celebrity culturearound veganism has made
veganism a diet in many people'seyes, and it never has been and
never will be.
A plant-based diet is afundamental part of being vegan,
(18:04):
but veganism is not a diet.
And when celebrities refer tothe vegan diet and actors talk
about going vegan to get readyfor a role, to lose weight for a
role, It's making a mockery ofwhat's happening to animals and
it's completely removing themfrom the conversation yet again.
And this is a constant problemthat we have.
(18:25):
Animals are removed from the onemovement that actually
represents them.
The one ethical philosophy thattruly takes their wellbeing and
their autonomy intoconsideration is consistently
being discussed in such a way asto remove them from that
conversation.
And we make a movement that isnot about us, but it's about
them, us, humans.
(18:47):
And then we make it not even amovement, but a diet.
It's so trivializing, it's sobelittling, and it's so
demoralizing that veganism isconsistently demeaned and its
importance is consistentlydevalued by making it comparable
to a diet that a celebrity maypartake in to lose some weight
for a movie role that they'regoing to be involved in.
(19:09):
And I think that's one of theharmful aspects of how veganism
and celebrity has overlapped.
So there's a few aspects here.
There's the idea that we asvegans perpetuate anecdotal
evidence or poor evidence to tryand promote veganism, even
though doing so is not a goodtechnique and it's not what we
should be doing, because theinverse of that is we can have
anecdotes used against us,especially when it's the same
celebrity that then stops beingvegan, as was the case with
(19:31):
Lizzo, for example.
It's also important to note thatI think that the way we engage
as celebrities should be that wedon't view veganism as being
legitimized because of acelebrity, but maybe that we
view a celebrity beinglegitimized because of them
being vegan.
That's the important dynamicthat I want to stress in this
video, that the relationshipbetween veganism and celebrities
should be that a celebrity goingvegan makes us more favorable
(19:52):
towards the celebrity, not thata celebrity going vegan makes us
more favorable of veganism,because the importance and value
of veganism remains the samewhether every celebrity is vegan
or whether no celebrities arevegan.
That's the crux of all of this.
And with social mediainfluencers, one thing that
we've seen, I think,predominantly is how Social
(20:14):
media can influence people awayfrom veganism and into harmful
things like raw milk orcarnivore diets or whatever it
may be.
And there are too many socialmedia influencers who view
plant-based eating or the termvegan as something that is an
identity trait to try and buildup their social media platform.
(20:34):
And there are many people whohave stopped eating plant-based
and who have said they're nolonger vegan because they want
to change how people engage withtheir social media platform.
What I mean specifically by thisis there was a time maybe seven,
eight years ago where goingplant-based and saying that you
were vegan on your Instagramprofile might have brought
(20:56):
people over towards you.
But now that's not necessarilythe case.
And if that's not the case,these people who were just
interested in building up theirown social media profiles, they
found themselves stuck with adilemma.
oh, do I continue to producecontent the way I have?
Do I continue to makeplant-based food?
Do I continue to talk aboutplant-based living?
Even though doing so is now lesssocially popular online than it
(21:18):
was six, seven, eight years agowhen I started.
Or should I change to meet thegrowing and current trends?
And so many people online havedone this.
I'm no longer vegan.
And they make these ex-veganvideos because they get views
and engagement and people comeover and follow them because
they said they're no longervegan and then they try and
broaden their appeal by makinganimal recipes with meat and
(21:40):
dead animals within them andthat's part of the problem with
this sort of fickle social mediasociety that exists around us
it's not about principles formany people it's about
engagement and boosting theirown social media profiles and
what a damning indictment of oursociety that is And so this is
another reason why when we talkabout veganism and celebrities,
we have to involve social mediainfluencers.
(22:00):
And if these people are notbeing driven by principle, and
certainly not by evidence, let'ssay, but are being driven by
what is popular, what thecurrent trends are, what is
sensationalist, what iscontroversial, that naturally
leads people to moving away fromveganism as veganism becomes
more normal and more mainstream,which is precisely what has
happened.
So...
That brings me to the end ofthis podcast.
(22:21):
Thank you so much for listening.
I really do appreciate it.
And I'd also like to say that ifyou're interested by some of the
themes that I've discussed inthis video, I actually discuss
them in my books, notnecessarily the celebrity
aspect, but some of thepolitical aspects.
I discuss social andpsychological behavioral
drivers, much of which is whatwe have been discussing in this
podcast episode.
So if you're interested in thethemes and topics of this
(22:41):
episode and indeed my podcast ingeneral, then I would love to
point you in the in more detailand also different subjects or
related to the widerconversation of veganism and
animals and trying to get peopleto stop causing unnecessary harm
and suffering to them.
All right, thank you so much forlistening.
(23:03):
I really do appreciate it and Iwill speak to you all in the
next episode.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you've enjoyed this episode,make sure to subscribe to the
Disclosure Podcast on whicheverplatform you listen to it, as
doing so means that you canalways stay up to date with new
(23:24):
episodes.
Leaving a review and sharing thepodcast is also really helpful.
And if you'd like to support thepodcast and my work more
generally, you can either make adonation through the link in the
show notes or sign up to my substack where I post weekly and
share my thoughts and feelingsabout the experience of living
vegan.
In the show notes, you can alsofind links to purchase my books.
(23:45):
Thank you again for listening.
Celebrities can undeniably have a significant
impact on how people perceivedifferent issues, veganism
included.
But how much value should we asvegans place on celebrity
endorsements of veganism?
And what does this mean for whencelebrities announce that
they're no longer vegan?
This is the Disclosure Podcast.
(00:50):
Welcome to the DisclosurePodcast.
If you enjoy this episode andthe work that I'm doing here,
then please consider checkingout my sub stack where I post
regular articles.
You can also support my work bybecoming a paid member of my sub
stack through which you willalso gain access to weekly
articles or by making a donationthrough my website.
Links for everything can befound in this episode's show
(01:12):
notes.
For those of you who do supportmy work, thank you so much.
I am incredibly grateful andappreciate it very much.
Leaving a review for thispodcast is also really helpful
and encourages more people tolisten to it.
I hope you find this episodeinteresting and informative, and
thank you for listening.
So let's talk about celebrities.
(01:32):
And I think one of the bestplaces to start is to probably
discuss a little bit about howthe role of celebrity has
changed.
Celebrities in decades gone bywere often movie stars,
musicians, people who hadreached sort of the pinnacle in
their respective field, and as aconsequence, were bringing in
enrichment and entertainment andjoy into people's lives through
(01:53):
the varying mediums they wereengaging in.
Maybe sometimes they werecelebrities because of an
invention or because of ascientific discovery or whatever
it may be.
But these were people who'dreached public notoriety mostly
for doing positive things thatprovided enrichment.
And as a consequence, peoplelooked up to them because they
aspired to have the success thatthey'd had.
(02:14):
They aspired to reach thepinnacle of their respective
career aspirations.
And celebrities were role modelsthat could look up to because
they had reached those peaksthemselves.
The perception that we have ofcelebrities has undeniably
changed.
There was a time, I believe,where celebrities probably
carried more weight than they donow, but I'm not sure how much
(02:35):
weight celebrities necessarilycarry to the everyday person
anymore.
And social media is a big reasonwhy that perception has changed.
It's kind of this...
irony in a way where we becamemore connected to celebrities.
And as a consequence, we startedto view them with less, I don't
know what the word would be,appreciation, not necessarily
less appreciation because westill appreciated their art,
(02:58):
let's say, but with less awe,perhaps, would be a good way of
framing it.
Celebrities have often existedoutside of the everyday society.
They have existed outside ofsort of the world that we're
used to.
And before, I think that thatcreated this sort of idea of
them being automaticallyaspirational and inspirational
(03:20):
because they had sort oftranscended beyond the world
that we exist within, let's say.
And I think historically thatmight have added credibility to
the things they said andbelieved.
But now I think the inverse istrue.
And we view them as being out oftouch, disconnected, detached,
lacking understanding aboutreality.
the trials and tribulations ofeveryday society and what we as
(03:41):
regular ordinary people have toendure and the consequences of
the world around us and what itmeans to exist in those
consequences, we now view thefact that celebrities exist
outside of the regular societyas a reason to not really value
or view their opinions and viewswith much credibility or care.
And social media has been a bigpart of that because that
(04:03):
connection to celebrities hasallowed them to do things which
has certainly raised someeyebrows.
And one of the best examples ofthis was during the pandemic
when a collection of celebritiesspearheaded by the actress Gal
Gadot has decided to sing acover of Imagine by John Lennon.
And it was the mostcringe-inducing thing that you
(04:26):
could ever see.
And it was so tone deaf.
And it just really spoke to howdetached these people were from
the everyday experiences ofpeople during that time.
The idea that celebrities weregoing to unify us all by singing
this song by John Lennon.
And it was going to bring ustogether and kind of reinforce
that we're all in this together.
But these people are living intheir mansions and have
(04:48):
everything very comfortable forthem.
It just really rubbed us all upthe wrong way, as well as being
super cringy.
And I remember during thepandemic, there was this video,
I think, of Madonna singing.
talking about how COVID was thegreat equalizer.
SPEAKER_00 (05:04):
That's the thing about COVID-19, it doesn't care
about how rich you are.
It's the great equalizer andwhat's terrible about it is
what's great about it.
SPEAKER_01 (05:13):
And you just thought, wow, this is...
This is deluded.
The idea that because we're allin a pandemic, that means we're
all experiencing the pandemicthe same.
That it means that the risk ofthe pandemic is equal for all of
us because we are all in it.
It's just so absurd that youcan't help but look at these
people and think, you've lostthe grounded connection that you
(05:33):
need to be able to actuallymeaningfully engage with with
your fans, let alone people whoaren't your fans.
You've become so distant fromthe realities of the world that
you've become so disconnectedand as a consequence, if we
widen that out, how can peoplereally engage with what these
people are saying and reallycare about the views and values
they have when they clearly areso disconnected?
(05:54):
And I think social media hasreally reinforced that and the
pandemic in particular sort ofreally hammered that point home.
And obviously the right havereally weaponized that sentiment
in such ways to try and diminishsort of environmental measures
because obviously celebritiescome out and talk about the
environment like LeonardoDiCaprio, let's say, and it's
very easy to point the finger atthese people and say, well, hang
(06:16):
on a minute, you have a privatejet and you have a yacht.
And if you really cared aboutthe environment, you wouldn't be
doing these things.
What's interesting about that isobviously there's truth to that,
but this sort of label ofhypocrite that we like to thrust
onto celebrities is a little bitself-defeating because just
because a celebrity may engagein certain things doesn't
disqualify the view that theyhave.
(06:36):
And what I mean by that isLeonardo DiCaprio could probably
do a lot more for theenvironment than he does.
But that doesn't mean that whenhe says we're in a climate
crisis, he's incorrect.
But because of the way that weview our relationship with
celebrities and because of theway we view our relationship
with the idea of hypocrisy, theeasiest thing to do is hear
Leonardo DiCaprio say somethingabout the climate crisis and go,
(06:57):
oh, but you do this.
But the fact that he does thatdoesn't invalidate the message
of what he's saying.
It just potentially means thathe should also be looking more
at himself and what he can dodifferently.
And that's part of the problemwith how we weaponize celebrity
culture against the celebritiesthemselves is sometimes they'll
be talking about things that areimportant.
Sometimes celebrities will talkabout these things and then we
kind of ignore them becausethey're a celebrity or because
(07:17):
they don't live a perfect lifethemselves.
And that can somewhat mean thatwe inadvertently delegitimize
the message that they'reactually trying to produce, when
in fact what they're sayingmight be incredibly valid, but
people don't want to engage withit meaningfully and so find
these ways to try and disengagefrom what it is that they're
saying.
So I guess what I'm trying tosay is that our relationship
with celebrities has undeniablychanged.
And not only has it undeniablychanged, but maybe we feel more
(07:40):
hostile towards celebrities thanwe once did.
But the flip side to this isthere's a new type of celebrity
which has kind of taken over andwe find far more influential
now, which is of course thesocial media influence of that
type of celebrity.
People like Mr.
Beast or Jake Paul or whoever itmay be, KSI is another example.
These are the people who arereally shaping particularly
(08:02):
young people around the world.
It's not the George Clooneys orthe Taylor Swifts even
necessarily, although sheprobably has more of an impact
than George Clooney.
It is actually the Mr.
Beasts.
It is the Jake Pauls.
It is these people who areshaping particularly young
people.
Now this is really dangerous fora number of reasons, primarily
because a lot of the contentthese people produce is awful,
(08:22):
like just awful, pushing reallybad values on people, bad
concepts.
And so undeniably, I thinkthere's many reasons why we
should be somewhat troubled andconcerned around how the role of
celebrity has changed, notbecause it is better to follow
what a more traditionalcelebrity says or does, but
(08:42):
because the new modern daycelebrity is engaging with their
viewers in a way whichultimately could be more
harmful.
And I think also the sort ofproblem with social media
influences is the illusion ofrelatability, the illusion of
authenticity.
Social media is not authentic.
It's not real.
It's not a depiction of theactual lived experiences of
(09:05):
those who use it.
If anything, it's quite theopposite.
It is a heavily manufactured,heavily warped and twisted and
manipulated version of life.
But because we view them asbeing more authentic and more
quote-unquote real, that meansthey can sometimes carry more
weight, which can becomeespecially dangerous because we
(09:25):
might then believe what theyhave to say more.
But let's talk about celebritiesand V veganism specifically
because that's what this to mebecause the reason I'm vegan is
(09:52):
for the animals and that doesn'tchange whether a celebrity
agrees with me or not on that.
And also because the benefits ofa plant-based diet are
substantiated by the evidence.
And again, that doesn't changebased on the view of a
celebrity.
Now I know that we like to feelvalidated and one way that we
can feel validated is by havinga celebrity release a statement
(10:13):
or say something positivelyabout veganism.
We all like that as vegans.
I like it when someone who Ilike, who I respect, when I find
out that they're they're avegan.
Ah, this is great.
I'm really happy that they're avegan.
But I think the reason why I'mhappy about it is because it
creates kind of a bit of aconnection in a way where it
makes me like them more becauseon a value perspective, we have
something in alignment.
(10:34):
But ultimately the perception Ihave of veganism is not altered
because the celebrity is vegan.
My perception of the celebritymight be altered because they're
vegan.
So it's not the vegan thing thatmatters.
It's my perception of thecelebrity that changes.
And this is important becauseoften Within the vegan
community, there are posts thatget shared around, which are
like quotes from celebrities.
(10:55):
And the quote is like, I'verecently started eating
plant-based and I feel amazing.
I have so much more energy froma certain celebrity, let's say.
And sometimes that gets sharedaround and we go, wow, this is
great.
This person says that aplant-based diet has made them
feel better.
And the thing is we share thataround because we think that
that's a good thing forveganism.
In the sense of people will seethat and say, oh, this person
(11:17):
says that, therefore veganism isgood.
And in essence, what we're doingis we're saying that the
celebrity should shape theimpression that we have of
veganism, not that veganismshould shape the impression we
have of the celebrity.
Now, this is dangerous becauseif we place the credibility of
veganism on how people perceiveit or how people engage with it
(11:37):
or their views of it, we'reactually undermining the
credibility of veganism, whichon its own is enough to stand on
its own feet.
It doesn't matter if a certaincelebrity feels better on a
plant-based diet.
What matters is that aplant-based diet is supported by
the scientific evidence and thatveganism is in opposition to the
exploitation of animals.
(11:58):
That's what matters, not theanecdotes of any one celebrity.
And some of you might belistening and saying, seems a
little bit pedantic.
Does it really matter?
Is it not just a good thing if acelebrity says something about
veganism that's positive and weshare it around?
Why would that matter?
But the reason I think itmatters is because When we share
these quotes from celebrities,or when celebrities say things,
(12:20):
we're in essence takinganecdotes from them, and we're
using those anecdotes asevidence.
But anecdotes are very poorforms of evidence.
In fact, they're among theweakest forms of evidence that
we can use.
But when we use anecdotes to tryand reaffirm our position, we're
opening ourselves up to haveanecdotes used against us.
Now Lizzo is a great example,Lizzo the singer.
(12:41):
She had gone vegan, she wasspeaking positively about
veganism, and then she releaseda reel saying she's no longer a
vegan and she has quote unquotereintroduced protein into her
diet.
Now, This is obviously a reallyfrustrating thing.
She made this whole reel talkingabout how she's no longer vegan.
And obviously people will seethat.
And what will happen then istheir view of veganism will be
(13:03):
shaped by the celebrity.
In other words, they'll go, oh,well, Lizzo said that she didn't
feel good on a plant-based dietat all.
She feels better now that she'sno longer on a plant-based diet.
This is reaffirming to me that aplant-based diet is not healthy
because of this anecdote fromthis celebrity, which has lots
of views, lots of engagement.
But that's a real issue for usbecause what it means is that
People's perception of thisvitally important movement for
(13:27):
animals fundamentally is beingdistorted by the anecdotes of
celebrities who ate aplant-based diet and then have
spoken ill of it because ofpseudo-health reasons or because
of...
Whatever reason it may be.
And the reason I saypseudo-health reasons is because
Lizzo was talking aboutpseudoscience and bogus health
(13:49):
claims throughout her I'm nolonger vegan reel.
And you see that a lot withinex-vegans.
They talk about bogus healthclaims, just anecdotes that are
unsubstantiated and claims whichare not grounded in rationality
or evidence.
But this is why I think it'sreally important that the way
that we as vegans engage withcelebrities from the perspective
(14:09):
of their endorsements is reallyimportant.
Because we don't want to beguilty of the same type of
messaging or the same type ofpersuasion, let's say.
So when I think of celebritiesdoing good things for animals, I
think of people like JoaquinPhoenix, for example.
I think of people like Moby.
I used to think of people likeBella Ramsey.
(14:30):
Sadly, Bella has come out andsaid that they're no longer...
vegan and that they're eatingeggs.
And this is really upsetting.
Of course it's upsetting.
I worked with Bella on a projectlast year called Matilda and the
Brave Escape.
And Bella did the voiceover forthat short film.
And the short film is aboutMatilda the pig, who is a real
(14:51):
pig, who escaped from a farm inthe UK and is now living at the
Surge Sanctuary.
And at the Surge Sanctuary,obviously we have a wide range
of animals who've been rescuedfrom animal farms, including
animals who've come from eggfarms.
And so it's just really...
It's really upsetting, thatsituation, for me.
And I really hope that Bellabecomes a vegan, a true ethical
vegan, who would not want to eateggs.
(15:13):
It's just such a shame that thishas happened.
And for me personally, ofcourse, was really upsetting.
But it's really upsetting whenanyone stops being vegan, not
because of the person, butbecause of what it means for the
animals.
And that's the thing.
I'm not upset about Bella nolonger being vegan because Bella
is no longer vegan.
I'm upset about Bella eatingeggs because eating eggs causes
harm to animals.
(15:34):
to egg-laying hens.
It causes suffering to animals.
That's what's upsetting aboutit.
And I suppose that is the broadpoint around veganism and
celebrities.
When a celebrity goes vegan, thereason why we should be happy is
because a human being is nolonger participating in these
systems of animal exploitation.
That's what should make ushappy.
And the reason why we're sadwhen they announce they're no
(15:56):
longer vegan is because a humanbeing is now partaking again in
these systems of exploitationtowards animals.
And in the case of ex-vegans whoannounce it publicly, it upsets
us because we know that that canhave a negative influence on
others, particularly if thosepeople are maybe social media
influencers who carry anaudience who views them as being
more relatable and authentic andwho is more likely to listen to
(16:16):
what it is that they have tosay.
Now, that doesn't mean thatcelebrities can't have a
positive influence.
Of course they can.
And when celebrities speak outabout animal rights, like Moby
does, for example, that ispowerful and it will influence
people in a positive way.
Even if it doesn't make themvegan, I think the power of a
celebrity speaking about animalrights is that animal rights is
still not viewed as being asimportant as it needs to be.
(16:38):
And so even just conversationsaround it are vital because it's
providing oxygen to an issuethat often doesn't have enough
oxygen provided to it.
It's creating conversation in asituation where it might not
normally happen.
And so having people withcelebrities who have platforms
speaking about issues, it's alsoabout the fact that it raises
awareness around those issues.
(16:59):
And that is powerful becauseraising awareness is the name of
the game when it comes to thingslike veganism, because we want
people to engage with theseissues and have to think about
them in a way that they maybehaven't previously.
we're not talking about veganismand the word vegan and the
phrase animal rights and thetrue meaning and ethos and
principles behind those thingsis not brought into the wider
public discourse, then thatmeans that people won't engage
(17:20):
with it.
And if they don't engage withit, they're not going to change
and become vegan themselves.
However, that works in the caseof celebrities talking about
animal rights and ethicalveganism, which is what veganism
is.
But so much around celebrityculture and veganism is about
diet.
And this is another aspect ofcelebrities and veganism, which
I think is really important.
(17:41):
And a lot of the celebrityconversation around veganism has
reduced veganism to a dietbecause that's often how it's
been centered.
Veganism is not a diet.
And one of the issues aroundthis particular conversation is
that the celebrity culturearound veganism has made
veganism a diet in many people'seyes, and it never has been and
never will be.
A plant-based diet is afundamental part of being vegan,
(18:04):
but veganism is not a diet.
And when celebrities refer tothe vegan diet and actors talk
about going vegan to get readyfor a role, to lose weight for a
role, It's making a mockery ofwhat's happening to animals and
it's completely removing themfrom the conversation yet again.
And this is a constant problemthat we have.
(18:25):
Animals are removed from the onemovement that actually
represents them.
The one ethical philosophy thattruly takes their wellbeing and
their autonomy intoconsideration is consistently
being discussed in such a way asto remove them from that
conversation.
And we make a movement that isnot about us, but it's about
them, us, humans.
(18:47):
And then we make it not even amovement, but a diet.
It's so trivializing, it's sobelittling, and it's so
demoralizing that veganism isconsistently demeaned and its
importance is consistentlydevalued by making it comparable
to a diet that a celebrity maypartake in to lose some weight
for a movie role that they'regoing to be involved in.
(19:09):
And I think that's one of theharmful aspects of how veganism
and celebrity has overlapped.
So there's a few aspects here.
There's the idea that we asvegans perpetuate anecdotal
evidence or poor evidence to tryand promote veganism, even
though doing so is not a goodtechnique and it's not what we
should be doing, because theinverse of that is we can have
anecdotes used against us,especially when it's the same
celebrity that then stops beingvegan, as was the case with
(19:31):
Lizzo, for example.
It's also important to note thatI think that the way we engage
as celebrities should be that wedon't view veganism as being
legitimized because of acelebrity, but maybe that we
view a celebrity beinglegitimized because of them
being vegan.
That's the important dynamicthat I want to stress in this
video, that the relationshipbetween veganism and celebrities
should be that a celebrity goingvegan makes us more favorable
(19:52):
towards the celebrity, not thata celebrity going vegan makes us
more favorable of veganism,because the importance and value
of veganism remains the samewhether every celebrity is vegan
or whether no celebrities arevegan.
That's the crux of all of this.
And with social mediainfluencers, one thing that
we've seen, I think,predominantly is how Social
(20:14):
media can influence people awayfrom veganism and into harmful
things like raw milk orcarnivore diets or whatever it
may be.
And there are too many socialmedia influencers who view
plant-based eating or the termvegan as something that is an
identity trait to try and buildup their social media platform.
(20:34):
And there are many people whohave stopped eating plant-based
and who have said they're nolonger vegan because they want
to change how people engage withtheir social media platform.
What I mean specifically by thisis there was a time maybe seven,
eight years ago where goingplant-based and saying that you
were vegan on your Instagramprofile might have brought
(20:56):
people over towards you.
But now that's not necessarilythe case.
And if that's not the case,these people who were just
interested in building up theirown social media profiles, they
found themselves stuck with adilemma.
oh, do I continue to producecontent the way I have?
Do I continue to makeplant-based food?
Do I continue to talk aboutplant-based living?
Even though doing so is now lesssocially popular online than it
(21:18):
was six, seven, eight years agowhen I started.
Or should I change to meet thegrowing and current trends?
And so many people online havedone this.
I'm no longer vegan.
And they make these ex-veganvideos because they get views
and engagement and people comeover and follow them because
they said they're no longervegan and then they try and
broaden their appeal by makinganimal recipes with meat and
(21:40):
dead animals within them andthat's part of the problem with
this sort of fickle social mediasociety that exists around us
it's not about principles formany people it's about
engagement and boosting theirown social media profiles and
what a damning indictment of oursociety that is And so this is
another reason why when we talkabout veganism and celebrities,
we have to involve social mediainfluencers.
(22:00):
And if these people are notbeing driven by principle, and
certainly not by evidence, let'ssay, but are being driven by
what is popular, what thecurrent trends are, what is
sensationalist, what iscontroversial, that naturally
leads people to moving away fromveganism as veganism becomes
more normal and more mainstream,which is precisely what has
happened.
So...
That brings me to the end ofthis podcast.
(22:21):
Thank you so much for listening.
I really do appreciate it.
And I'd also like to say that ifyou're interested by some of the
themes that I've discussed inthis video, I actually discuss
them in my books, notnecessarily the celebrity
aspect, but some of thepolitical aspects.
I discuss social andpsychological behavioral
drivers, much of which is whatwe have been discussing in this
podcast episode.
So if you're interested in thethemes and topics of this
(22:41):
episode and indeed my podcast ingeneral, then I would love to
point you in the in more detailand also different subjects or
related to the widerconversation of veganism and
animals and trying to get peopleto stop causing unnecessary harm
and suffering to them.
All right, thank you so much forlistening.
(23:03):
I really do appreciate it and Iwill speak to you all in the
next episode.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you've enjoyed this episode,make sure to subscribe to the
Disclosure Podcast on whicheverplatform you listen to it, as
doing so means that you canalways stay up to date with new
(23:24):
episodes.
Leaving a review and sharing thepodcast is also really helpful.
And if you'd like to support thepodcast and my work more
generally, you can either make adonation through the link in the
show notes or sign up to my substack where I post weekly and
share my thoughts and feelingsabout the experience of living
vegan.
In the show notes, you can alsofind links to purchase my books.
(23:45):
Thank you again for listening.
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