November 25, 2024 • 64 mins
We’re excited to bring you this inspiring conversation with Charles Costa, an ultrarunner who accomplished the incredible challenge of running 90 marathons in 90 days along the Pacific Crest Trail.
In this episode, Charles shares his journey of resilience, his dedication to raising awareness for mental health through organizations like the Jed Foundation, and the lessons he’s learned from this life-changing experience.
We explore powerful themes like finding freedom and purpose through running, the connection between physical activity and mental health, and how perseverance can inspire change not just for yourself but for others.
A huge thank-you to Charles Costa for sharing his story and to everyone supporting mental health initiatives that truly make a difference.
Don’t forget to follow Charles on Instagram at @CharlesCostaOfficial for more inspiration!
#EveryMileMatters
Chapters:
0:00 Introduction
0:18 Finishing the Challenge
0:39 Background and Motivation
2:07 Discovering Ultra Running
4:00 The Sicily Experience
6:36 Running for Freedom
12:05 Running for Mental Health Awareness
18:16 Running as an Expression
25:10 The Challenge of Resilience
36:30 Support and Community on the Trail
41:11 The Power of Resilience
54:07 What's Next
59:16 Calls to Action
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi everybody, welcome back to the Extra Mile.
It's a beautiful day in Montclair, New Jersey,
and today we have an extraordinary guest, Charles
Costa, who is a musician, ultrarunner, mental health
advocate, and a seeker of freedom.
I recorded this interview a few weeks ago
just after Charles completed an awe-inspiring journey
running 90 marathons in 90 days along the
(00:22):
iconic Pacific Crest Trail from Canada to Mexico.
From battling exhaustion in the Sierra Nevada to
finding solace in the rhythm of the steps,
Charles shares how this monumental effort became a
meditation on resilience, mental health, and the art
of expression.
We'll dive into the origins of this ultrarunning
(00:43):
passion, his reflections on running as a form
of self-discovery and artistic expression, and the
deep connections he's made between music, movement, and
meaning.
Charles also opens up about his personal experiences
with mental health and why he chose to
dedicate this journey to raising funds for the
Jed Foundation and James's Place.
(01:04):
Before we jump into it, I want to
give a huge thanks to our partners at
Lifeway Foods.
Lifeway is a purpose-driven brand and a
champion for many social causes, supporting initiatives that
promote maternal health, girls' education and empowerment, the
environment, and especially mental health, which is why
I thought this would be a good episode
to dedicate to them.
(01:25):
Did you know that what you eat can
have a profound effect on your mental health?
It turns out that the gut and the
brain are connected in ways that we're just
beginning to understand.
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It's a simple, delicious way to nourish your
(01:47):
body and your mind.
So, whether you're fueling up for your next
walk, run, or bike ride, or just looking
for a way to take care of your
mental well-being, head over to lifewaykefir.com
to learn more and get started today.
Huge thanks to Lifeway for their support this
year, huge thanks to Charles for this interview,
and huge thanks to all of you for
(02:07):
joining us.
Now, without any further ado, turn up your
volume and turn on your charity miles and
come along for the walk or run with
me and Charles Costa.
Every mile matters.
(02:50):
Connected to nature, connected to music, to their
families, and now we're going to build a
world that doesn't have racism or war and
starving kids.
I kept telling myself, run at me, and
just keep smiling.
Hi, hi, hi, I'm Charles Costa.
I've just finished running 90 marathons in 90
(03:11):
days along the Pacific Crest Trail, and I'm
here to talk to Gene.
Excellent.
So, 90 marathons, 90, when did you finish?
You just finished like last week, right?
Yeah, exactly, Wednesday.
Wow.
And what have you been doing since then?
Very little, very, very little.
(03:32):
Yeah, my step count is under 100 today.
Yeah, I can imagine, you deserve a little
bit of a rest.
So, I mean, I'm taking it easy.
Can you maybe share a little bit more
about your background and what led you to
want to do something like this?
Yeah, well, the first time I got into
(03:55):
ultra running was at the end of lockdown
in the UK.
I ran from John O'Groats to Land's
End, and that is the top of the
UK to the very bottom.
And I had this, after lockdown, you know,
I was stuck in my home.
I needed to really express myself and just
(04:19):
run and not look back.
And yeah, this was the idea.
So, I just started running and, you know,
just got into that mindset.
And I really got the bug for ultra
running.
And I, from then I started doing some
(04:41):
races, mountains in Switzerland.
And I just started loving it, like really
loving it.
And I wanted to do something bigger.
I wanted to do something longer, something, you
know, really challenging.
And I thought the PCT, this kind of
holy grail of trails would be exactly the
(05:03):
right one for me.
So, you said you started ultra running during
lockdown.
Had you been a runner otherwise?
Were you doing like marathons or anything before
that?
Or did you just fully start running during
lockdown?
I've been into running for a while, but,
(05:26):
you know, never more than five, eight Ks.
You know, I love running, but I didn't
know that there was this kind of world
of ultras where, you know, you're just on
a huge, a huge kind of distance schedule.
And it's, you know, it's a completely different
mindset.
(05:47):
And it's something I really, I really gravitated
towards.
And it's what I find beautiful about it
is it takes you to beautiful places.
And I think it's the best place to
experience a new place or even a place
that you know well, because you'll never know
somewhere as well as you will when you've
run through it.
(06:08):
You know, you've snow cut the ground through
your feet.
And it's such a beautiful way to get
to know somewhere and, you know, really get
behind the behind the themes of, of a
country or, you know, place you're from.
Yeah, I totally agree.
(06:29):
A hundred percent agree.
So did you, you know, during lockdown, you
fit into running, you've been running, you know,
five to eight Ks, you know, did you
like read an article about ultra running?
Did you see something on the internet or
did it just come to you and you're
like, I want to do something bigger.
I'm going to just start running really long.
And you then, you know, just through that
(06:50):
process, learned about ultras.
Or was it something else?
Well, I actually remember being in Sicily and
Italy, and I was, I was there in
between lockdowns in, in the UK, we had,
we were kind of given a leaf, and
(07:12):
then the leaf was taken away.
We snapped back into our lockdown.
But while I was there, I remember running
for, you know, like, I think I did
like 20 kilometers or something.
And I was like, wow, wouldn't it be
cool to run around this whole island?
And then I was like, Oh, I wonder
how long it is.
And it was maybe three, 400 kilometers or
(07:33):
something.
I was like, Oh, that's cool.
Maybe.
But what it'd be like if I ran
all the way from the top of Italy,
all the way to the bottom of Italy,
swam across the Messina Straits, and ran up
Mount Etna or something.
And then, and then I was like, yeah,
I'm gonna do that.
I'm gonna, I just had this passion to,
(07:53):
to keep on running.
It's very Forrest Gump, really.
And I, you know, I watched that movie
when I was a kid.
And I was like, I know this guy's
found a freedom in just running out and
not looking back.
I know he's found it.
And that's what I was looking for.
It was, no, it was a kind of
freedom that really called me to just get
(08:15):
on the trail, get on the road and
just keep going.
But it turned out that because of the
lockdowns in Europe, I couldn't actually get it
together.
And I couldn't get insurance and all of
these kind of, you know, red tape kind
of things.
So I did it in the UK, which
was, you know, it was wonderful.
I did it for a UK charity and,
(08:35):
you know, running through Scotland and all the
way through England and Cornwall.
Some of these places are just magnificent.
So yeah, it is kind of probably, probably
the seed was first sown by Forrest Gump,
I'd say.
Yeah, I, me too, man.
Like, I gotta tell you, like, for me,
I'm, you know, I remember seeing Forrest Gump
for the first time and that I wasn't
(08:57):
much of a runner back in, I mean,
I ran track in high school, but I
was not very good.
You know, but the scene where he runs
across the United States, that always struck a
chord with me and something that I would
love to be able to do one day.
I don't know if it's something that I'll
actually end up doing.
We've, I've known a number of people that
have run across the United States.
(09:18):
I've known, we've had people that have gotten
the Pacific Crest Trail, the Appalachian Trail.
And there's something about that that's just like,
I don't know, it piques a curiosity with
me.
I just think it would be an incredible,
incredible experience to try that someday.
It's my style for any moment.
(09:41):
Yeah.
So you're talking about freedom.
Like, it was the freedom.
What was it, the freedom from the lockdowns
that you were craving?
Or was it just even like, other than
the lockdown, was there something, a freedom from
something else or a freedom of a state
of mind or something like that, that you
were, you were looking for?
Yeah.
(10:02):
You know, I think, I think, I think
at that time I was, you know, I
was really looking for, you know, I was
so penned in, hemmed in and, you know,
I needed to just release.
But I think, you know, running for me
has always been an incredible, you know, source
of freedom, though, even though I haven't really,
(10:24):
I haven't really kind of dialed in consciously
what it is that I get out of
running.
And it's, it's something that I, I've kind
of craved over the years as a, as
a way of just, you know, escaping something,
(10:44):
whether it's, you know, I've been, I've been
in a studio all day and I, you
know, I needed, you know, was frustrated.
I felt like claustrophobic.
It's the best, it's the best release from
a lot of your, your mental kind of
space.
And I think that on a lot of
levels, you know, whether it's something, something like
(11:07):
stress or you're claustrophobic or you're, you're anxious
or you're depressed, I think running can relieve
completely a whole, a whole world of, you
know, trouble that is, it's, it's only in
your head.
Um, so I think that that freedom is,
(11:28):
you know, everybody wants to find a higher,
a higher and a further degree of freedom.
You know, that you can never have too
much freedom.
I mean, that's debatable perhaps, but, you know,
in, in, as far as your mentality and
your psychology is concerned, you know, freedom is
everything.
(11:48):
And I think I really found that in,
in running and I, over the years, I've
just got closer and closer to it.
Yeah.
And it's, you know, it's not like running
solves your problem, but in the moment, it
really does.
You know, you can get, you get a
perspective on life.
(12:08):
I think it's so easy to lose perspective.
The more you think about things, you know,
you can, especially I was, I was brought
up in London and I think any intense
city existence is very, um, you know, cerebrally
focused, very, very, you know, it's all about
your, your mind's activity.
(12:29):
And there's, there's not a lot of, I
mean, more and more these days, I think
people are getting more and more into just
the worlds of the world and experience of
being, being in your body and expressing your,
you know, your, your, your body's kind of,
uh, expulsions, you know, sweating and your heart
(12:55):
beating, your lungs heaving, and, you know, everything
moving gives you a changes, the kind of
focus of, of, of your mindset.
So there's a few things that you said
in there and also earlier, and I'm not
sure which one to touch on first, or
(13:16):
maybe I'll just like kind of note them
and, um, you can kind of decide the
order in which we kind of talk about
these or, um, or not.
So one thing you said at the beginning
was that this was a, this was an
expressive and it was an expressive activity for
you.
(13:36):
You had something that you wanted to express.
I can't remember the exact words that you
used, but it was something about expressing something
and that resonated with me.
Um, because what I mentioned that we've had
a number of people with charity models that
have gone across the United States with it.
And the first person that did it was
a young woman named Anna Judd, who was
(13:59):
a painter and he was, she was a
runner, but like, you know, she wasn't like,
you know, a big ultra runner, but she
wanted to do this as a piece of
performance art.
And it was for her, it was, it
was, it was performance art.
And she was doing it for veterans to
raise awareness for veterans because she is herself
as a pacifist, couldn't imagine what it would
(14:21):
be like to be a veteran.
So it was a way of her connecting
with a group that she didn't fully understand.
Um, and also creating a piece of performance
out around that.
And I know that you are a musician.
And so I'm curious, like how you think
of this as a, as an expressive activity
(14:43):
as a musician.
So that's one thing, um, this will be
kind of like, choose your own adventure, like
what do you want to go from here?
The other thing you were talking about was
a lot of like mental health, right?
And you were talking about how running is
a really great way to clear your mind,
to run for freedom.
And, um, I know that you did this
(15:06):
as a way of raising awareness and raising
money for the Jed Foundation for mental health.
So how does that kind of, you know,
what would you like to say about that?
But the other thing that you said about
that in that context was kind of like
a way of running.
I can't remember the exact word that you
(15:27):
used, but it was like, it was a
way to get away.
It was like a way to escape.
And I'm that I, I might not have
said it the right way that you said
it, but it struck me in that way.
I remember when I was first getting into
long distance running and I've done a few
ultras, not like you, but I remember somebody
telling me that, you know, in the ultra
(15:49):
community, we're all running from something.
And I really, I didn't like it.
I didn't like the way that they said
that I didn't want to be running from
something.
I want it to be running to something.
I didn't want running to be something that
I was doing to escape.
Although it is, you know, going for a
run is a great way to like, to
put your cares on the side for a
(16:09):
little while and clear your head.
But I didn't want running to be like
something for me that I was, you know,
running from my problems.
So I'm curious, like your thoughts on that
and the way you framed it, you know,
is this a way that you're, are you
running from something or are you running to
something?
Is it both?
(16:30):
How do you think about?
So I guess three, three kind of subtopics
and what you, the way that you frame
things.
I'll let you take it from there.
Let me try to keep those all in
my head.
Well, I think the, what's interesting about the,
I hear what you're saying about, you know,
(16:50):
you don't want it to, you don't want
to be an escape artist.
You don't want to be, you know, constantly
moving away from the problem, you know, you
don't want it to be a, you know,
a kind of a decision coming from weakness.
You want it to be about, you know,
being in a position of strength and, you
know, developing that and developing your skill and
(17:13):
your, your, your body's fitness and, and it
to be about, to be about that rather
than not being able to handle something.
And I think there's, I think, I think
there's something in, in running and I think
there's something that in the sort of freedom
(17:37):
that you can look for in that it,
it, a lot of the mental head space
that you get in, you get yourself into
a space that it's almost meditative.
It's, it's the rhythm.
It's the simple one foot, two, one foot,
two foot.
And it's getting you into a place where
(17:59):
some of the problems can get into the
back of your mind and they can actually
figure themselves out and, and they can, you
know, they can start solving themselves.
You give them, you, you give them a
little bit of space and, and you get,
it's like I said, you get more perspective,
(18:20):
you know, you, you really evaluate the significance
of different problems and the different states that
you're in and how much, how much they
should, how much weight they should have on
your psyche.
And I think a lot of things can
be set in the, in, in the background
(18:40):
for that.
And there's, you know, there's running, there is,
I mean, it's, it's it's figurative, but you
can, you know, you're running into something while
running away from something.
And it's, it's, you're looking at a horizon
and you never get there, you know, you're
(19:01):
always, the horizon is always changing and it's
always, the light is always changing.
And you're, you're, you're never arriving at the
end of the road.
You're, you know, I think there's something that's
wonderful about the space that it inhabits.
It's, it's a kind of, you know, it's
(19:22):
the rhythm of it.
It's the, it's the meditative thing about it
that it's the way of passing time in
a kind of rhythmical sense.
You know, I think rhythm is just so
beautiful.
And I think that's where the kind of
meditative element comes from.
And there's, you know, you give your brain
a breathing space, you're, you're putting all of
(19:44):
your strain into your muscles and into your
heart and into your lungs.
And you're, you're just telling it to do
what it's built to do.
You know, you're turning your body into an
instrument.
Um, and I think, I think with, with
performance and, and, uh, music bringing that into
(20:06):
it, it's, it's, um, it's very similar to
singing.
Uh, and I, I feel like running and
singing are so similar in the way that
they're elemental and they just use your body.
You just use your lungs power.
It all comes from your body and it's,
you can turn breath into melody and into
(20:27):
song.
And, um, it's, it's all, it's all just
simple expression of your, of your being, um,
without necessarily there being any, anything more than
that, anything more kind of, um, significant.
But I think, you know, I think just
(20:48):
giving yourself space to express, express your body's,
um, energy in a, you know, turn it
into heat, turn it into sweat and, you
know, turn breath into song is, is very
significant in a way.
Um, and, you know, it's melody that, especially
(21:11):
in my life, it makes the world go
round.
It's the source of so much emotion and,
um, you know, it can carry so much
of your spirit, you know, it can hang
on a melody and, you know, you can,
you can feel so connected to your spirit.
You can feel connected to your body and
the way you, the way you really are
(21:34):
can, can really be hung on a melody.
Um, and, you know, rhythm is completely essential
to that.
Uh, I think they're so tied together and
it, and it's, it's like your friend who,
who did the performance art for veterans.
I mean, what a beautiful thing to do
when you, you know, you can't possibly understand
what it's like to go to war because
(21:55):
you're a pacifist.
And, you know, in a way it's, you
know, a lot of, a lot of, a
lot of art is very conceptual.
Uh, it's very cerebral and in a way,
you know, running is, is nothing like that.
It's, it's just your, it's just your kind
(22:19):
of spirit expressing itself is, is kind of
how I feel, especially in, in over long
distances and as an, as an art piece,
you don't have to have a, you don't
have to be able to explain it or
talk about it.
It's just, you're, you're, you're offering your, your
(22:39):
body as a, as an instrument, as a,
as a tool, as a, um, I guess
as a paintbrush or a, or a 3d
printing machine, you know, it's, you're an instrument.
And I think that, I love that she
performed in that way.
(23:00):
Yeah, I, I love to think of, of,
of the body as an instrument and it,
you know, it can be generating sounds and
melodies and, and it can be creating rhythm
and it, you know, that's such an expressive
tool and sometimes you don't need to express
or you don't need to know what you
(23:21):
need to express, but you just need to
let it out.
And that can just be breath and temperature
and your spirit.
Earlier on, you mentioned, like I said, that
you were looking to do something expressive.
Was there something in your, that you wanted
(23:43):
to express?
And then also along, along, along those same
lines as a musician, was your first instinct,
like I have something to express, I'm going
to express it through music or was your
instinct really like, I want something to express.
I want to express it through running.
I think with, I think it was, I
think it was different in terms of what
(24:04):
I wanted to express.
You know, it was a, I think what
I wanted to get across was, you know,
the kind of challenge, the scale of the
challenge.
And, you know, I wanted that to be
a, a kind of connection point for people
to, and draw people towards these charities.
(24:27):
You know, these charities are so, you know,
fundamental in, in the push for the whole
thing and, and the, you know, the, the
inspiration to kind of keep going.
A lot of it was, you know, based
on why I was running it and why
I was going to do, you know, the,
(24:49):
the, the number of marathons I said I'd
do in the amount of time.
And, you know, that was a big part
of it.
And also just as simply as, you know,
I love running and I want to express
my love of running by running.
And, and it's a, the long distance thing
(25:12):
is, you know, you, you want to find
your resilience.
You want to find your, your, your utmost
strength.
You want to see what, what you're, what
you're made of.
And that kind of searching for who you
are and what you're made of is part
(25:33):
of what you're, part of your expression.
And I guess that kind of touches upon
that you were doing this for, to support
the Jed Foundation for mental health.
So was that a charity that you said
when you kind of came to this, you're
like, I want to do 90 marathons in
(25:54):
90 days.
How did you come up with that particular
formulation of this?
And why is it that you chose to
do this in support of the Jed Foundation?
Well, the 90 marathons in 90 days that
came from just, uh, I mean, it's slightly
(26:15):
shorter than the, the PCT, but because there's
so many fires, wildfires, um, it actually worked
out because you have to kind of circumnavigate
some areas, um, where the PCT is closed.
Um, but the, the reason suicide prevention is
(26:37):
important to me is that it's such a
devastating, it has such a devastating effect on,
on people around, uh, on people around the
subject.
And it, it's such a horrific thing.
And it, you know, it's, it's very present
(26:59):
in the veteran, veteran communities.
And it's, it's, it feels like somebody has
been cheated out of, of their life by
not by feeling that it's not worth anything.
And, you know, life is so precious and
that's really what I felt a lot on
(27:21):
the trail is how precious this life is.
And, and just being able to simplify it
to just being an animal, being a human
is such a precious thing and everybody deserves
to experience that.
And I guess the struggle that I've had
over the years that all drew me to
(27:44):
this, this, this, um, thinking is, is, uh,
an accident, a skiing accident I had left
me with a brain trauma that made me
very fragile and vulnerable, um, psychologically.
And it, it's been a, you know, it's
(28:05):
been quite a rough ride.
Um, and I've had, I'm very close to
my family and I've, I've had a lot
of help to get through it.
Um, and it's, it's about survival.
And I think, you know, I look to
running for, for that, for that.
And I look to my family to that.
(28:26):
And a lot of people don't know what
their outlets are, where they can, where they
can release the tension in their mind and
in the, in their bodies.
And these charities, uh, the Jed Foundation and
James's Place in London, in the UK, they're
there for you when you're, when you're searching,
(28:49):
when you're desperate.
And they're like, you know, they're like lifeguards.
They're like the lifeboat, um, people.
It's like, they'll pull you out of the
water where, you know, you're surrounded by an
ocean that's, that's just, it's as ready to
take you.
And you need somebody and you have to,
you know, when you need somebody, you need
(29:12):
somebody.
And that's what these charities do.
And it's so crucial.
And, uh, it's, it's such a required part
of society now that it's a very troubling,
very troubling time is, you know, it's, um,
(29:34):
there's a lot of, there's a lot of
things that are a lot of heavy, life
can be very, very heavy.
Um, and these, these charities are just incredible
places where, you know, they're open, they're open
with open arms to rescued young people, particularly.
(29:55):
I've, uh, I'm getting ready for this.
I've listened to some of your music online,
and I feel like that's something that you
talk about in your music too, in some,
some of your songs.
Um, one is what are your songs like
heavy times or am I getting that right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, how, how has this, how have these
(30:20):
ideas kind of, how have you expressed them
through your music?
And then was there anything that you learned
along the PCT in these 90 marathons and
90 days that maybe an experience or a
moment or a realization or anything that you
learned along the trail that gave you a
new understanding, uh, of, of mental health and
(30:43):
things that you're talking about?
Yeah, I think, I think, uh, I mean,
I, I think about whatever, uh, whatever, uh,
whatever I feel like is needs to be
(31:06):
resolved, something that I can't figure out.
I, I feel like a lot of, you
know, mental activity is just trying to resolve
something, you know, whether it's professional or relational
or emotional, everything presents can present itself as
(31:27):
a problem that needs to be solved and
whether, you know, I do gravitate, you know,
personally to, you know, the romantic, uh, beauty
and the world.
And, you know, sometimes, sometimes that takes turns
(31:50):
to, you know, space and light and wonderful,
beautiful things.
And sometimes it takes darker turns to isolation
and darkness.
And, you know, I think that's kind of
part of life that you, you try and
describe and convey.
Um, and, you know, you see such an
(32:13):
arc of, of the day in, on the
trail, you know, I'm up before dawn and
I'm, you know, I'm, I'm in bed soon
after nightfall and it's, it's a real dawn
to dusk experience.
And you, there are, you, you do figure
(32:37):
out, I mean, you do figure out things
about yourself, you know, what, what your, what
your weaknesses are, what, what your, what, what
gives you energy, what takes your energy away,
what, what, when you're, I thought a lot
about energy and, you know, for a start,
(32:59):
you're just trying to get the calories in
for your muscles and you're trying to get
the sleep for your brain.
And, um, you have an emotional energy, you
need to have a reason to get up
and do it and keep doing it and
keep doing it and keep doing it.
But sometimes, you know, there's things like adrenaline
and the way you get boosts of adrenaline
(33:23):
and how, how that can, you know, assist
you.
And, uh, you know, it's extraordinary what, what,
what your body will respond to and what
your mind will respond to.
And you don't really know, I've been trying
to figure it out.
Like, can I, how do I control better
(33:44):
the energy that I, that I have?
And it's some, you know, sometimes say running
through a forest, I can get, I find
it a bit tedious, you know, it's just
a green tunnel on your, uh, you know,
it can be nice and it can be
soft, but it's, you don't have a view.
You don't have, um, you know, it's just
the same.
(34:05):
It's just, you know, it's the same thing.
And it, you know, it just gets a
bit mundane and monotonous and it's like running
at night when you've got your torch and
the torch is what the torch illuminates is
the only thing that you can see and
you don't know what's going on.
And like, I found that quite scary.
Um, and you're just walking into that absolute,
like the unknown, you're like, I don't know
(34:27):
what's there.
I mean, you, you do want to have
an idea of where you are, um, and
what the landscape looks like.
It just feels like you want to know
that everything's okay.
And you can tell yourself it's okay though.
Let's just check.
There's no benefit.
And, and there's, you've, you've been, you know,
(34:49):
on the trail in the early morning and
the light comes, the sun comes up or
you, or you come up the top of
the top of the mountain and come out
of the forest, you know, your energy changes.
You, you get filled, you get renewed.
And it's like, what is it that's getting
renewed?
What is it that's changing?
(35:12):
It's, you know, it's beautiful.
It's freeing.
It's kind of open, but you know, my,
my muscles haven't changed.
My, my brain hasn't changed.
And it's kind of like an emotional thing.
And it's, you know, it's extraordinary, but it's
all coming from, you know, it's all coming
from within.
Um, and it's, you know, can you meditate
your way into being able to control that?
(35:35):
Or is it, I mean, where does it
come from?
And, you know, so there's a lot of
exploring that I felt I was doing just
of understanding energy.
Hmm.
Oh, what is the process?
Like, what is the process of songwriting like
for you?
And how does this compare to that process?
(36:02):
I think, I think songwriting can be, you
know, there's kind of like, you have a
kind of sort of songwriting checkpoints and energy
(36:23):
in this kind of similar way.
You know, you, you sometimes when I'm running
out, I'll get some kind of a, you
know, you make a, you make a sound,
you make a rhythm when you're running with
your backpack.
Sometimes you feel like there's a shaker kind
of always going just Yeah.
And be like, you know, you get into
that and it's, it's, it kind of moves,
(36:45):
you move around it and you're, you know,
you kind of get things in your head
or there's a little phrase or it's something
you've heard or something that you've been thinking
about and, and things can come kind of
out of nowhere.
And, you know, it doesn't mean that you
suddenly get a song right away, but you
know, you've got something, you've had something that's
(37:07):
kind of boiling or, you know, simmering around
in the background.
Now you've got something tangible to work around
and you kind of think, Oh, maybe this
could be a cool groove or a song,
or it's an interesting lyrical idea or, you
know, it's, it's the, you kind of have
to, you have to build it.
You have to build it and put it
(37:27):
together from, from a very small idea.
Yes.
Did you write any songs on the trail?
Did you, in your head, were you running
and writing poems or songs or anything come
into your mind as you're running like that?
(37:48):
Yeah.
There are things that came to my mind.
I didn't really have time to dwell too
much on them.
I feel like something, sometimes you can, you
can put things in your head and you
want to, you want to work on, but
they can just vanish quite easily.
If you, if you're not really, you're not
really up for it or you're not really,
(38:08):
don't really have the energy.
You're just kind of flooding away.
Are you going to come out with like
an album of music based on this experience
or a song that's based on this experience?
Do you have anything, you know, works like
that?
I'd like to come out with something, something
kind of, I mean, it was such an
(38:30):
inspiring time.
I mean, the, just some of the experiences
of, of being in the different territories just,
oh, it was so wonderful.
And some of the, you know, some of
the downsides, some of it, some of the
exhaustion, you're just, you're just digging so deep,
(38:52):
you're scraping the barrel for anything that, you
know, you can turn into energy to get
through the day.
It's, I would like to, I think I
would definitely draw on it for something.
Whether I'll sing a song about hitting the
(39:13):
hard miles, hard mile blues.
Yeah, maybe.
Did you do, and you know, cause I
saw, you know, the videos that you would
post online, it seems like you had a
crew of some sort.
What was like the, were you meeting up
with them every day or like every few
days?
Like how was that working with your crew?
(39:35):
Pretty much whenever it was possible.
I mean, sometimes by the end it would
be, it'd be every night and in the
middle of the day as much as possible,
just because it was so hot and there
was no water that I just had to
have.
I had to meet them just to refuel,
(39:58):
just to get to the end without evaporating.
But a lot of times in the Sierra
mountains, I wouldn't be able to see them
for days.
So I'd have my, I'd have a different
backpack with my camping gear.
And that was a bit more of a
challenge just because it was heavy and so
(40:22):
much climbing.
So I'd be camping on my own.
And then, yeah, it's just kind of as
often as, as often as possible, really, but
it's just where, where you can get into
the trail.
And how about like, were you meeting or
seeing other people along the way?
How were you connecting your story to other
(40:46):
people through this journey?
Yeah.
I mean, the, the trail is, you know,
it's like a foot wide.
So you, you bump into people all the
time.
I was doing it southbound.
So you bump into all the northbounders, especially
in Washington and Oregon and the north of
(41:09):
California, they kind of run out into the
Southern California.
But you know, it's, it's such a great,
it's such a great encounter because you know
something about them.
You seem to know something about the character
that they're up for this.
They're up for the challenge.
(41:30):
They're sort of, you know, they're, you kind
of, you meet on a good level, very
nice level.
And you, you have the chance to exchange
as much kind of, of your stories as
you like.
And there was some wonderful encounters with people,
complete surprises of where people came from, what
(41:53):
they were doing.
There's no kind of type.
I mean, there is a type of person
who likes hiking and camping, but you know,
I was always very surprised by the people
I met.
I got on very well with a lot
of people.
With some of the people that we've had
that have gone across the United States, they're
(42:15):
able to be a lot more public with
because they're on public roads.
And when they're going through towns or, you
know, wherever they're going, like the local news
or like the local town kind of hears
that they might be coming through.
And so people will come out and like
drive up on the road to meet them
and give them 20 bucks or just to
congratulate them.
And I've had the, the fortune of joining
(42:36):
some of these people on the road for
different days of their journey and, you know,
see how people would come out to support
them.
But was it were people able to do
that with you on the Pacific Crest Trail
where people kind of coming out to kind
of meet you and, and encourage you along
the way?
I think it was, it was.
(43:00):
No, I mean, yeah, we, we, I mean,
we made, we made friends and Anna, my
crew was, you know, she was kind of
on the roads and through the towns and
resupplying and, and she met a lot of
(43:21):
people and there, there, there was, there were
interactions, but it would be, we, we would
meet people, you know, in campsites and, and
people would be very encouraging, but there wouldn't
be anyone who knew what we were doing
before we were, before we talked about it
and kind of got into conversation about it.
(43:44):
So the more, the more public expression of
what you were doing to raise awareness for
mental health and suicide prevention was through your
social channels?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, and, and different breath features and stuff,
get the word out.
You talked a little bit about resilience before
(44:05):
and how do you think of resilience and
what did you learn about resilience along the
way?
I guess I'd say resilience as, as your,
(44:25):
you know, this is very Bear Grylls, but
your ability to sort of not give up,
not stack it in.
And, you know, you really, I mean, I
really had to cover the, the kilometers and
to do that, you, you know, you have
to be, you have, you have to be
(44:45):
up and at them and, and you have
to just be, you have to be moving,
have to keep moving and you have to
just figure out ways of, you know, playing
with your mind and playing with the, the,
the, the time and the hours and just
figure out how to do it.
(45:05):
And, you know, not, I guess you gotta
like control yourself.
Know that, well, I mean, one thing I
did learn is that a good night's sleep
is unbelievable what it can do, how it
can shift.
(45:26):
I mean, you can go to sleep absolutely
boiling mad what you set yourself and then
the exhaustion, the pain you've got yourself into,
you know, and a good night's sleep and
you're like, no, it's all right.
I can do it.
I can do it.
And you keep just having to like quietly,
kind of quietly converse with yourself and get,
(45:48):
and just get the body moving.
And it's, it's funny.
I think your, your body has its own
way of telling you to like stop and
rest and you have to kind of override
that.
And yeah, I mean, I think, you know,
(46:10):
being, being resilient is, is putting things into
not, is putting things into perspective and not,
not letting your mood dominate your, your kind
of entire psyche.
It's just a part of what's going on.
(46:31):
I like how you talked about the power
of a good night's sleep because sometimes resilience
is thought of as like a, a character
trait that people have, but sometimes it's just
something that you practice and, or things that
you need to, to do and a simple
thing like a good night's sleep or a
walk to clear your head.
(46:52):
Like these are, you know, I find that
with my own mental health, you know, cause
I have my own mental health struggles as
well.
And yeah, it can, it can spiral and
it can compound and trying to figure out
the mental side of it.
It's almost impossible, but there's certain, there's certain
(47:16):
simple physical things that I can do that
if I can get myself to do them,
because sometimes the mental side is so hard
that it's hard to fall asleep or it's
hard to get myself to, you know, get
up and go get out of bed to
go for a run.
But if you can practice those simple physical
things, it can make a world of difference
(47:36):
on the mental side.
But do you, for resilience, do you think
that you came to this with as a
resilient person or is resilience something that you
were looking to build along the way through
this experience or neither or both?
(48:00):
Like how do you, yeah, I think that's
I think, um, yeah, I think, I think
resilience, I think, you know, some people naturally,
you know, will, I guess people will have
different commitments and I see resilience is like
(48:24):
a muscle and it's like you, you,
you build it, you earn it, you know,
you've always got the blue pill, the red
pill, you can always, you know, you've always
got two options in your mind, you can
(48:44):
always, you know, keep going or leave it
where you're at.
And the more times you make the decision,
whether it's one way or the other, the
more times you're going to naturally go and
make that decision again.
And you will, it will be like a
(49:08):
mind muscle memory and you'll just, you'll start
making a habit of it.
And it's, you know, it's like, do I
want to camp here or do I want
to finish exactly the miles that I set
myself for the day?
And, you know, I'm like, this is a
beautiful place to camp, but it's five kilometers
(49:30):
short of where I set myself for the
day.
It doesn't matter whether I would actually camp
or keep going, but because I've just dialed
myself into this kind of like slightly obsessive,
obsessive neurotic, like desire, it's, it's just like
you, you go, you push repeat, you push
(49:51):
repeat and you just, you know, you just
complete.
And that was, I think, you know, I
did that every day, day in, day out.
It was, it just becomes a, a routine.
I think you can practice it.
I think you can practice resilience and I
think you can build on it.
(50:13):
And it's, you know, life's always going to
throw harder things and harder things, and you're
always going to have to face harder and
harder things, but it's very, it's, it's, you
know, it's one of two decisions a lot
of the time.
Do you have a certain like mental or
a certain thing that you tell yourself in
(50:35):
those moments when you have, when you're faced
with that decision, do you have a checklist
or a mantra or something that you say
to yourself to, to make you choose the
one decision over the other?
Yeah, I think when, when it starts getting
hard, you start kind of going through a
(50:55):
loop of the things that you think will
help you out.
Like, why am I doing this?
I'm raising money.
This, you know, we've got to a certain
amount of donations.
So yes, you're keeping going.
You can't sack it off now.
You can't waste this.
You know, you're just being lazy.
You know, you can, you just kind of
(51:16):
pet cork your way through it.
And it, you know, sometimes it's just about
getting out of your tent in the morning.
Do I want to get out when it's
still dark and it's ice on the tent
and it's freezing and, you know, you haven't
slept and, you know, your bag's heavy.
You just have to get up.
And once you're up, everything starts moving and
(51:38):
you're not going to get back into the
tent because it's, it's, it's not a good
place to be anyway.
You know, it's, it's just about, you know,
running and hiking is so, it's so simple.
It's just about getting yourself moving.
So I think there are, you know, there
are definitely mind games that you play with
(52:00):
yourself to get you through the day.
Sometimes if you've got, you know, you started
late and you've got 40 kilometers left and
you're like, oh, I can't face it.
And you're like, you're yelling into the middle
distance.
You know, you're, you know, you can't see
it.
You can't see yourself crossing the line, but
you know that there's no other option.
(52:23):
So you better start moving or like call
the, um, search and rescue team, which is,
you know, it's not going to happen.
But I do think it's, it's, it's a
habit.
It's a, it's a muscle memory thing.
It's practice.
(52:44):
How do you, other than, you know, running
90 marathons in 90 days on the Pacific
Crest Trail, how can the rest of us
practice that?
How would you recommend the rest of us
practice that?
Well, I think, I mean, I think, you
know, giving yourself space to exercise in your
(53:06):
daily routine is, is great.
Um, you know, there's things like having cold
showers and cold plunges help a lot of
people, um, you know, like reaching out and
speaking to people, talking to people when naturally
you're kind of more reclusive.
(53:29):
I think, you know, getting yourself out of
isolation is, um, you know, a big one
and connecting with people, meeting people.
I mean, that's where, you know, I think
it's, it's maintaining a level of energy.
So you're not, you don't have to rely
(53:50):
on your deep resilience.
It's, it's keeping yourself at a point where
you don't have to pep talk and fight
your way through the day.
It's, it's about keeping yourself buoyant and, you
know, energetic on some level.
(54:11):
So yeah.
Yeah.
I'm glad you said that.
Cause I always think of resilience, not as
like a individual characteristic, but whenever somebody says
the word resilient, I think of the term
resilient ecosystem.
And this is something that I've talked about
on the podcast before.
So people who listen to this regularly hear
(54:31):
me beat this drum a lot, but I
think of, um, you know, a monocrop is
very easy to wipe out if there's like
a pest, but if you have a field
of wildflowers, that's a diverse ecosystem.
That's much harder to what that's, um, that's
a resilient ecosystem is a diverse ecosystem.
There's a lot more to it.
And I find that for me, resilience is
(54:53):
less about like an individual trait, although partly
an individual trait that I can cultivate and
practice and do certain things about, but my
resilience comes from my ecosystem with people that
are a part of my life, uh, that,
and not being, and especially for mental health,
not being isolated and reaching out to connect
(55:16):
with the people that are important to me
is something that where I draw strength from.
That's so good.
Yeah.
That's so good.
You know, a resilient community.
I mean, that's perfect.
Um, how, and then just last time resilience,
how have you exposed, sorry, go ahead.
(55:39):
No, no, I wasn't going to say anything.
You might've, I you've been saying a lot
of it.
I was just going to ask you on
resilience, like how have you experienced resilience as
a musician?
And is that different than the ways that
you've experienced it as a runner?
(55:59):
Ah, I think, I think resilience is a,
I think being a resilient artist on any,
any, in any, uh, discipline is, is about,
you know, maintaining belief that you are an
(56:22):
artist and making art is a worthwhile pursuit
and you will fail and fail and fail
in your ambitions, in your career.
And that doesn't diminish you or your art.
(56:47):
It's, it's just, uh, you know, it's, it's,
it's just a, uh, you know, a fight
that you've got to face.
And I feel like I've done a lot
of that in my life as a, as
(57:09):
a singer, a songwriter, a performer, and, you
know, it's so, it's such a challenge, especially
like growing up in a big city like
London, where it's, you know, success, the way
you see success is seen as, you know,
(57:31):
dominance and, um, prosperity.
And, you know, unless you fulfill your, your
potential, you know, you're a failure and you
can often feel like a failure, even if
you're not a failure, you know, a lot
of people will see it, a particular artist
(57:53):
or a campaign is a huge success.
You know, they can see music is beautiful
and enriching and nourishing, but it could not,
it could, it could also not fulfill that
artist's ambitions.
And, you know, you could end up losing
money.
I mean, talking about losing money to, you
(58:15):
know, fellow musicians, it's like an absolute no
brainer.
It's a black hole of finance.
And it's, um, you really do have to
keep at it and find some way to
believe in yourself.
And, you know, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's
(58:37):
a lot, it's, it's a struggle really is.
So you kind of have to be, you
have to face that and you have to
keep bouncing back.
And, you know, you're the character that you
build.
It is what it will be.
(58:58):
What sustains you, what sustains your art and
what sustains your, your writing and everything.
Sounds like the resilience as a musician is
probably a lot harder than the resilience.
He has a runner.
Yeah, I would say.
So what's next for you either as a
(59:19):
musician or as a runner?
Well, my, my hunger and appetite for ultra
running right now is fully sated and I'm
I don't have any plans for this year.
Someone was suggesting, you know, rest up and
maybe get to the New York marathon in
(59:41):
November.
I was like, no, no, thank you.
But I'm releasing, I'm really, I've just released
a single four or five days ago, the
day I finished this run called nothing at
the most, and that's out everywhere.
And I'm releasing a, an album in at
(01:00:01):
the end of July, no, January.
And that's my next focus.
And is it, are these songs that you
created before the run or after the run?
Before the run.
Before, oh, after the run would just be
five days ago.
So.
(01:00:22):
So do you look, I mean, these songs
that you created before the run, do you
look at them differently now after the run?
You know, I didn't actually listen to any
of it while I was running.
I, I wanted to keep a decided kind
of space because before it, I was, you
know, thinking, you know, recording and then edits
(01:00:44):
and mixing and mastering and getting it all
how, how I wanted it to be.
So I listened to it a lot.
So, so I also left my favorite headphones
in the airport as I was coming out
here and I was like, I'm not listening
to them.
I'm listening to my masters on my shocks,
(01:01:06):
my shocks headphones.
That's like, I need a much better quality.
Yeah.
No, I do like shocks.
I do like shocks, but it's, and I
listened to, I listened to everything, but it
was just, yeah.
You really want to hear it in the
best, uh, like in volume, you know, boost.
Um, yeah.
(01:01:26):
So I think, I don't know.
I'm going to, I'm going to have a,
another lesson.
Maybe I'm annoyed actually that I didn't listen
to it while on the trail because it,
you, it, it can be a, you know,
wonderful experience listening to your music or your,
you know, your music that's close to you
while in dramatic surroundings doing something extreme.
(01:01:53):
Um, but it's, uh, yeah, I wonder how
it would change.
I, I do listen to the music that
I've released quite a lot.
I do, I do really enjoy that process,
how it kind of evolves and how you
change and how, how your kind of relationship
with it changes because, you know, a lot
of yourself goes into this, these kind of
(01:02:15):
creations.
So it's, it means a lot.
Yeah.
Excellent.
Well, are there any kind of calls to
action that you'd like to make to the
people who are hopefully listening to this and
walking along with us today?
Listen to my single, nothing at the most.
Nothing.
And we're on Spotify.
(01:02:36):
So, and also you changed your name.
So you used to be King Charles.
Now you're going by Charles Costa.
So they look, what do they look up
on Spotify?
Charles Costa.
Charles Costa.
Yeah.
Okay.
And, um, keep running, keep singing, let the,
get those lungs heaving and those, those hearts
beating.
(01:02:56):
Yeah.
Excellent.
Those, those are the drums, drums I hit.
Excellent.
So Charles Costa on Spotify, anything, anywhere else
that they should go?
Do you have a website?
Instagram.
Yeah.
Follow me on Instagram.
Charles Costa official.
Okay.
Yeah.
I think that's about it.
(01:03:17):
Excellent.
Thank you very much for sharing this with
us today and congratulations on an incredible achievement
and, uh, really, really cool.
Love what you love, what you've done.
And definitely, uh, kicks my curiosity too.
Yeah.
Maybe one day try something like that.
Definitely go for it.
(01:03:38):
It's this, the, the John Muir trail is,
is incredible.
Incredible.
I've heard.
Yeah.
John Muir, Pacific Crest, Appalachian.
Those are all things that kind of get
me, get me wondering.
Yeah, do it, man.
Excellent.
All right.
Well, thank you very much, Charles.
(01:03:59):
It was great to meet you.
Congratulations, uh, everyone out there.
Uh, hope you enjoyed this as much as
I did.
Every mile matters.
Great to speak to you, man.
Take care.
Hi everybody, welcome back to the Extra Mile.
It's a beautiful day in Montclair, New Jersey,
and today we have an extraordinary guest, Charles
Costa, who is a musician, ultrarunner, mental health
advocate, and a seeker of freedom.
I recorded this interview a few weeks ago
just after Charles completed an awe-inspiring journey
running 90 marathons in 90 days along the
(00:22):
iconic Pacific Crest Trail from Canada to Mexico.
From battling exhaustion in the Sierra Nevada to
finding solace in the rhythm of the steps,
Charles shares how this monumental effort became a
meditation on resilience, mental health, and the art
of expression.
We'll dive into the origins of this ultrarunning
(00:43):
passion, his reflections on running as a form
of self-discovery and artistic expression, and the
deep connections he's made between music, movement, and
meaning.
Charles also opens up about his personal experiences
with mental health and why he chose to
dedicate this journey to raising funds for the
Jed Foundation and James's Place.
(01:04):
Before we jump into it, I want to
give a huge thanks to our partners at
Lifeway Foods.
Lifeway is a purpose-driven brand and a
champion for many social causes, supporting initiatives that
promote maternal health, girls' education and empowerment, the
environment, and especially mental health, which is why
I thought this would be a good episode
to dedicate to them.
(01:25):
Did you know that what you eat can
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It turns out that the gut and the
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It's a simple, delicious way to nourish your
(01:47):
body and your mind.
So, whether you're fueling up for your next
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for a way to take care of your
mental well-being, head over to lifewaykefir.com
to learn more and get started today.
Huge thanks to Lifeway for their support this
year, huge thanks to Charles for this interview,
and huge thanks to all of you for
(02:07):
joining us.
Now, without any further ado, turn up your
volume and turn on your charity miles and
come along for the walk or run with
me and Charles Costa.
Every mile matters.
(02:50):
Connected to nature, connected to music, to their
families, and now we're going to build a
world that doesn't have racism or war and
starving kids.
I kept telling myself, run at me, and
just keep smiling.
Hi, hi, hi, I'm Charles Costa.
I've just finished running 90 marathons in 90
(03:11):
days along the Pacific Crest Trail, and I'm
here to talk to Gene.
Excellent.
So, 90 marathons, 90, when did you finish?
You just finished like last week, right?
Yeah, exactly, Wednesday.
Wow.
And what have you been doing since then?
Very little, very, very little.
(03:32):
Yeah, my step count is under 100 today.
Yeah, I can imagine, you deserve a little
bit of a rest.
So, I mean, I'm taking it easy.
Can you maybe share a little bit more
about your background and what led you to
want to do something like this?
Yeah, well, the first time I got into
(03:55):
ultra running was at the end of lockdown
in the UK.
I ran from John O'Groats to Land's
End, and that is the top of the
UK to the very bottom.
And I had this, after lockdown, you know,
I was stuck in my home.
I needed to really express myself and just
(04:19):
run and not look back.
And yeah, this was the idea.
So, I just started running and, you know,
just got into that mindset.
And I really got the bug for ultra
running.
And I, from then I started doing some
(04:41):
races, mountains in Switzerland.
And I just started loving it, like really
loving it.
And I wanted to do something bigger.
I wanted to do something longer, something, you
know, really challenging.
And I thought the PCT, this kind of
holy grail of trails would be exactly the
(05:03):
right one for me.
So, you said you started ultra running during
lockdown.
Had you been a runner otherwise?
Were you doing like marathons or anything before
that?
Or did you just fully start running during
lockdown?
I've been into running for a while, but,
(05:26):
you know, never more than five, eight Ks.
You know, I love running, but I didn't
know that there was this kind of world
of ultras where, you know, you're just on
a huge, a huge kind of distance schedule.
And it's, you know, it's a completely different
mindset.
(05:47):
And it's something I really, I really gravitated
towards.
And it's what I find beautiful about it
is it takes you to beautiful places.
And I think it's the best place to
experience a new place or even a place
that you know well, because you'll never know
somewhere as well as you will when you've
run through it.
(06:08):
You know, you've snow cut the ground through
your feet.
And it's such a beautiful way to get
to know somewhere and, you know, really get
behind the behind the themes of, of a
country or, you know, place you're from.
Yeah, I totally agree.
(06:29):
A hundred percent agree.
So did you, you know, during lockdown, you
fit into running, you've been running, you know,
five to eight Ks, you know, did you
like read an article about ultra running?
Did you see something on the internet or
did it just come to you and you're
like, I want to do something bigger.
I'm going to just start running really long.
And you then, you know, just through that
(06:50):
process, learned about ultras.
Or was it something else?
Well, I actually remember being in Sicily and
Italy, and I was, I was there in
between lockdowns in, in the UK, we had,
we were kind of given a leaf, and
(07:12):
then the leaf was taken away.
We snapped back into our lockdown.
But while I was there, I remember running
for, you know, like, I think I did
like 20 kilometers or something.
And I was like, wow, wouldn't it be
cool to run around this whole island?
And then I was like, Oh, I wonder
how long it is.
And it was maybe three, 400 kilometers or
(07:33):
something.
I was like, Oh, that's cool.
Maybe.
But what it'd be like if I ran
all the way from the top of Italy,
all the way to the bottom of Italy,
swam across the Messina Straits, and ran up
Mount Etna or something.
And then, and then I was like, yeah,
I'm gonna do that.
I'm gonna, I just had this passion to,
(07:53):
to keep on running.
It's very Forrest Gump, really.
And I, you know, I watched that movie
when I was a kid.
And I was like, I know this guy's
found a freedom in just running out and
not looking back.
I know he's found it.
And that's what I was looking for.
It was, no, it was a kind of
freedom that really called me to just get
(08:15):
on the trail, get on the road and
just keep going.
But it turned out that because of the
lockdowns in Europe, I couldn't actually get it
together.
And I couldn't get insurance and all of
these kind of, you know, red tape kind
of things.
So I did it in the UK, which
was, you know, it was wonderful.
I did it for a UK charity and,
(08:35):
you know, running through Scotland and all the
way through England and Cornwall.
Some of these places are just magnificent.
So yeah, it is kind of probably, probably
the seed was first sown by Forrest Gump,
I'd say.
Yeah, I, me too, man.
Like, I gotta tell you, like, for me,
I'm, you know, I remember seeing Forrest Gump
for the first time and that I wasn't
(08:57):
much of a runner back in, I mean,
I ran track in high school, but I
was not very good.
You know, but the scene where he runs
across the United States, that always struck a
chord with me and something that I would
love to be able to do one day.
I don't know if it's something that I'll
actually end up doing.
We've, I've known a number of people that
have run across the United States.
(09:18):
I've known, we've had people that have gotten
the Pacific Crest Trail, the Appalachian Trail.
And there's something about that that's just like,
I don't know, it piques a curiosity with
me.
I just think it would be an incredible,
incredible experience to try that someday.
It's my style for any moment.
(09:41):
Yeah.
So you're talking about freedom.
Like, it was the freedom.
What was it, the freedom from the lockdowns
that you were craving?
Or was it just even like, other than
the lockdown, was there something, a freedom from
something else or a freedom of a state
of mind or something like that, that you
were, you were looking for?
Yeah.
(10:02):
You know, I think, I think, I think
at that time I was, you know, I
was really looking for, you know, I was
so penned in, hemmed in and, you know,
I needed to just release.
But I think, you know, running for me
has always been an incredible, you know, source
of freedom, though, even though I haven't really,
(10:24):
I haven't really kind of dialed in consciously
what it is that I get out of
running.
And it's, it's something that I, I've kind
of craved over the years as a, as
a way of just, you know, escaping something,
(10:44):
whether it's, you know, I've been, I've been
in a studio all day and I, you
know, I needed, you know, was frustrated.
I felt like claustrophobic.
It's the best, it's the best release from
a lot of your, your mental kind of
space.
And I think that on a lot of
levels, you know, whether it's something, something like
(11:07):
stress or you're claustrophobic or you're, you're anxious
or you're depressed, I think running can relieve
completely a whole, a whole world of, you
know, trouble that is, it's, it's only in
your head.
Um, so I think that that freedom is,
(11:28):
you know, everybody wants to find a higher,
a higher and a further degree of freedom.
You know, that you can never have too
much freedom.
I mean, that's debatable perhaps, but, you know,
in, in, as far as your mentality and
your psychology is concerned, you know, freedom is
everything.
(11:48):
And I think I really found that in,
in running and I, over the years, I've
just got closer and closer to it.
Yeah.
And it's, you know, it's not like running
solves your problem, but in the moment, it
really does.
You know, you can get, you get a
perspective on life.
(12:08):
I think it's so easy to lose perspective.
The more you think about things, you know,
you can, especially I was, I was brought
up in London and I think any intense
city existence is very, um, you know, cerebrally
focused, very, very, you know, it's all about
your, your mind's activity.
(12:29):
And there's, there's not a lot of, I
mean, more and more these days, I think
people are getting more and more into just
the worlds of the world and experience of
being, being in your body and expressing your,
you know, your, your, your body's kind of,
uh, expulsions, you know, sweating and your heart
(12:55):
beating, your lungs heaving, and, you know, everything
moving gives you a changes, the kind of
focus of, of, of your mindset.
So there's a few things that you said
in there and also earlier, and I'm not
sure which one to touch on first, or
(13:16):
maybe I'll just like kind of note them
and, um, you can kind of decide the
order in which we kind of talk about
these or, um, or not.
So one thing you said at the beginning
was that this was a, this was an
expressive and it was an expressive activity for
you.
(13:36):
You had something that you wanted to express.
I can't remember the exact words that you
used, but it was something about expressing something
and that resonated with me.
Um, because what I mentioned that we've had
a number of people with charity models that
have gone across the United States with it.
And the first person that did it was
a young woman named Anna Judd, who was
(13:59):
a painter and he was, she was a
runner, but like, you know, she wasn't like,
you know, a big ultra runner, but she
wanted to do this as a piece of
performance art.
And it was for her, it was, it
was, it was performance art.
And she was doing it for veterans to
raise awareness for veterans because she is herself
as a pacifist, couldn't imagine what it would
(14:21):
be like to be a veteran.
So it was a way of her connecting
with a group that she didn't fully understand.
Um, and also creating a piece of performance
out around that.
And I know that you are a musician.
And so I'm curious, like how you think
of this as a, as an expressive activity
(14:43):
as a musician.
So that's one thing, um, this will be
kind of like, choose your own adventure, like
what do you want to go from here?
The other thing you were talking about was
a lot of like mental health, right?
And you were talking about how running is
a really great way to clear your mind,
to run for freedom.
And, um, I know that you did this
(15:06):
as a way of raising awareness and raising
money for the Jed Foundation for mental health.
So how does that kind of, you know,
what would you like to say about that?
But the other thing that you said about
that in that context was kind of like
a way of running.
I can't remember the exact word that you
(15:27):
used, but it was like, it was a
way to get away.
It was like a way to escape.
And I'm that I, I might not have
said it the right way that you said
it, but it struck me in that way.
I remember when I was first getting into
long distance running and I've done a few
ultras, not like you, but I remember somebody
telling me that, you know, in the ultra
(15:49):
community, we're all running from something.
And I really, I didn't like it.
I didn't like the way that they said
that I didn't want to be running from
something.
I want it to be running to something.
I didn't want running to be something that
I was doing to escape.
Although it is, you know, going for a
run is a great way to like, to
put your cares on the side for a
(16:09):
little while and clear your head.
But I didn't want running to be like
something for me that I was, you know,
running from my problems.
So I'm curious, like your thoughts on that
and the way you framed it, you know,
is this a way that you're, are you
running from something or are you running to
something?
Is it both?
(16:30):
How do you think about?
So I guess three, three kind of subtopics
and what you, the way that you frame
things.
I'll let you take it from there.
Let me try to keep those all in
my head.
Well, I think the, what's interesting about the,
I hear what you're saying about, you know,
(16:50):
you don't want it to, you don't want
to be an escape artist.
You don't want to be, you know, constantly
moving away from the problem, you know, you
don't want it to be a, you know,
a kind of a decision coming from weakness.
You want it to be about, you know,
being in a position of strength and, you
know, developing that and developing your skill and
(17:13):
your, your, your body's fitness and, and it
to be about, to be about that rather
than not being able to handle something.
And I think there's, I think, I think
there's something in, in running and I think
there's something that in the sort of freedom
(17:37):
that you can look for in that it,
it, a lot of the mental head space
that you get in, you get yourself into
a space that it's almost meditative.
It's, it's the rhythm.
It's the simple one foot, two, one foot,
two foot.
And it's getting you into a place where
(17:59):
some of the problems can get into the
back of your mind and they can actually
figure themselves out and, and they can, you
know, they can start solving themselves.
You give them, you, you give them a
little bit of space and, and you get,
it's like I said, you get more perspective,
(18:20):
you know, you, you really evaluate the significance
of different problems and the different states that
you're in and how much, how much they
should, how much weight they should have on
your psyche.
And I think a lot of things can
be set in the, in, in the background
(18:40):
for that.
And there's, you know, there's running, there is,
I mean, it's, it's it's figurative, but you
can, you know, you're running into something while
running away from something.
And it's, it's, you're looking at a horizon
and you never get there, you know, you're
(19:01):
always, the horizon is always changing and it's
always, the light is always changing.
And you're, you're, you're never arriving at the
end of the road.
You're, you know, I think there's something that's
wonderful about the space that it inhabits.
It's, it's a kind of, you know, it's
(19:22):
the rhythm of it.
It's the, it's the meditative thing about it
that it's the way of passing time in
a kind of rhythmical sense.
You know, I think rhythm is just so
beautiful.
And I think that's where the kind of
meditative element comes from.
And there's, you know, you give your brain
a breathing space, you're, you're putting all of
(19:44):
your strain into your muscles and into your
heart and into your lungs.
And you're, you're just telling it to do
what it's built to do.
You know, you're turning your body into an
instrument.
Um, and I think, I think with, with
performance and, and, uh, music bringing that into
(20:06):
it, it's, it's, um, it's very similar to
singing.
Uh, and I, I feel like running and
singing are so similar in the way that
they're elemental and they just use your body.
You just use your lungs power.
It all comes from your body and it's,
you can turn breath into melody and into
(20:27):
song.
And, um, it's, it's all, it's all just
simple expression of your, of your being, um,
without necessarily there being any, anything more than
that, anything more kind of, um, significant.
But I think, you know, I think just
(20:48):
giving yourself space to express, express your body's,
um, energy in a, you know, turn it
into heat, turn it into sweat and, you
know, turn breath into song is, is very
significant in a way.
Um, and, you know, it's melody that, especially
(21:11):
in my life, it makes the world go
round.
It's the source of so much emotion and,
um, you know, it can carry so much
of your spirit, you know, it can hang
on a melody and, you know, you can,
you can feel so connected to your spirit.
You can feel connected to your body and
the way you, the way you really are
(21:34):
can, can really be hung on a melody.
Um, and, you know, rhythm is completely essential
to that.
Uh, I think they're so tied together and
it, and it's, it's like your friend who,
who did the performance art for veterans.
I mean, what a beautiful thing to do
when you, you know, you can't possibly understand
what it's like to go to war because
(21:55):
you're a pacifist.
And, you know, in a way it's, you
know, a lot of, a lot of, a
lot of art is very conceptual.
Uh, it's very cerebral and in a way,
you know, running is, is nothing like that.
It's, it's just your, it's just your kind
(22:19):
of spirit expressing itself is, is kind of
how I feel, especially in, in over long
distances and as an, as an art piece,
you don't have to have a, you don't
have to be able to explain it or
talk about it.
It's just, you're, you're, you're offering your, your
(22:39):
body as a, as an instrument, as a,
as a tool, as a, um, I guess
as a paintbrush or a, or a 3d
printing machine, you know, it's, you're an instrument.
And I think that, I love that she
performed in that way.
(23:00):
Yeah, I, I love to think of, of,
of the body as an instrument and it,
you know, it can be generating sounds and
melodies and, and it can be creating rhythm
and it, you know, that's such an expressive
tool and sometimes you don't need to express
or you don't need to know what you
(23:21):
need to express, but you just need to
let it out.
And that can just be breath and temperature
and your spirit.
Earlier on, you mentioned, like I said, that
you were looking to do something expressive.
Was there something in your, that you wanted
(23:43):
to express?
And then also along, along, along those same
lines as a musician, was your first instinct,
like I have something to express, I'm going
to express it through music or was your
instinct really like, I want something to express.
I want to express it through running.
I think with, I think it was, I
think it was different in terms of what
(24:04):
I wanted to express.
You know, it was a, I think what
I wanted to get across was, you know,
the kind of challenge, the scale of the
challenge.
And, you know, I wanted that to be
a, a kind of connection point for people
to, and draw people towards these charities.
(24:27):
You know, these charities are so, you know,
fundamental in, in the push for the whole
thing and, and the, you know, the, the
inspiration to kind of keep going.
A lot of it was, you know, based
on why I was running it and why
I was going to do, you know, the,
(24:49):
the, the number of marathons I said I'd
do in the amount of time.
And, you know, that was a big part
of it.
And also just as simply as, you know,
I love running and I want to express
my love of running by running.
And, and it's a, the long distance thing
(25:12):
is, you know, you, you want to find
your resilience.
You want to find your, your, your utmost
strength.
You want to see what, what you're, what
you're made of.
And that kind of searching for who you
are and what you're made of is part
(25:33):
of what you're, part of your expression.
And I guess that kind of touches upon
that you were doing this for, to support
the Jed Foundation for mental health.
So was that a charity that you said
when you kind of came to this, you're
like, I want to do 90 marathons in
(25:54):
90 days.
How did you come up with that particular
formulation of this?
And why is it that you chose to
do this in support of the Jed Foundation?
Well, the 90 marathons in 90 days that
came from just, uh, I mean, it's slightly
(26:15):
shorter than the, the PCT, but because there's
so many fires, wildfires, um, it actually worked
out because you have to kind of circumnavigate
some areas, um, where the PCT is closed.
Um, but the, the reason suicide prevention is
(26:37):
important to me is that it's such a
devastating, it has such a devastating effect on,
on people around, uh, on people around the
subject.
And it, it's such a horrific thing.
And it, you know, it's, it's very present
(26:59):
in the veteran, veteran communities.
And it's, it's, it feels like somebody has
been cheated out of, of their life by
not by feeling that it's not worth anything.
And, you know, life is so precious and
that's really what I felt a lot on
(27:21):
the trail is how precious this life is.
And, and just being able to simplify it
to just being an animal, being a human
is such a precious thing and everybody deserves
to experience that.
And I guess the struggle that I've had
over the years that all drew me to
(27:44):
this, this, this, um, thinking is, is, uh,
an accident, a skiing accident I had left
me with a brain trauma that made me
very fragile and vulnerable, um, psychologically.
And it, it's been a, you know, it's
(28:05):
been quite a rough ride.
Um, and I've had, I'm very close to
my family and I've, I've had a lot
of help to get through it.
Um, and it's, it's about survival.
And I think, you know, I look to
running for, for that, for that.
And I look to my family to that.
(28:26):
And a lot of people don't know what
their outlets are, where they can, where they
can release the tension in their mind and
in the, in their bodies.
And these charities, uh, the Jed Foundation and
James's Place in London, in the UK, they're
there for you when you're, when you're searching,
(28:49):
when you're desperate.
And they're like, you know, they're like lifeguards.
They're like the lifeboat, um, people.
It's like, they'll pull you out of the
water where, you know, you're surrounded by an
ocean that's, that's just, it's as ready to
take you.
And you need somebody and you have to,
you know, when you need somebody, you need
(29:12):
somebody.
And that's what these charities do.
And it's so crucial.
And, uh, it's, it's such a required part
of society now that it's a very troubling,
very troubling time is, you know, it's, um,
(29:34):
there's a lot of, there's a lot of
things that are a lot of heavy, life
can be very, very heavy.
Um, and these, these charities are just incredible
places where, you know, they're open, they're open
with open arms to rescued young people, particularly.
(29:55):
I've, uh, I'm getting ready for this.
I've listened to some of your music online,
and I feel like that's something that you
talk about in your music too, in some,
some of your songs.
Um, one is what are your songs like
heavy times or am I getting that right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, how, how has this, how have these
(30:20):
ideas kind of, how have you expressed them
through your music?
And then was there anything that you learned
along the PCT in these 90 marathons and
90 days that maybe an experience or a
moment or a realization or anything that you
learned along the trail that gave you a
new understanding, uh, of, of mental health and
(30:43):
things that you're talking about?
Yeah, I think, I think, uh, I mean,
I, I think about whatever, uh, whatever, uh,
whatever I feel like is needs to be
(31:06):
resolved, something that I can't figure out.
I, I feel like a lot of, you
know, mental activity is just trying to resolve
something, you know, whether it's professional or relational
or emotional, everything presents can present itself as
(31:27):
a problem that needs to be solved and
whether, you know, I do gravitate, you know,
personally to, you know, the romantic, uh, beauty
and the world.
And, you know, sometimes, sometimes that takes turns
(31:50):
to, you know, space and light and wonderful,
beautiful things.
And sometimes it takes darker turns to isolation
and darkness.
And, you know, I think that's kind of
part of life that you, you try and
describe and convey.
Um, and, you know, you see such an
(32:13):
arc of, of the day in, on the
trail, you know, I'm up before dawn and
I'm, you know, I'm, I'm in bed soon
after nightfall and it's, it's a real dawn
to dusk experience.
And you, there are, you, you do figure
(32:37):
out, I mean, you do figure out things
about yourself, you know, what, what your, what
your weaknesses are, what, what your, what, what
gives you energy, what takes your energy away,
what, what, when you're, I thought a lot
about energy and, you know, for a start,
(32:59):
you're just trying to get the calories in
for your muscles and you're trying to get
the sleep for your brain.
And, um, you have an emotional energy, you
need to have a reason to get up
and do it and keep doing it and
keep doing it and keep doing it.
But sometimes, you know, there's things like adrenaline
and the way you get boosts of adrenaline
(33:23):
and how, how that can, you know, assist
you.
And, uh, you know, it's extraordinary what, what,
what your body will respond to and what
your mind will respond to.
And you don't really know, I've been trying
to figure it out.
Like, can I, how do I control better
(33:44):
the energy that I, that I have?
And it's some, you know, sometimes say running
through a forest, I can get, I find
it a bit tedious, you know, it's just
a green tunnel on your, uh, you know,
it can be nice and it can be
soft, but it's, you don't have a view.
You don't have, um, you know, it's just
the same.
(34:05):
It's just, you know, it's the same thing.
And it, you know, it just gets a
bit mundane and monotonous and it's like running
at night when you've got your torch and
the torch is what the torch illuminates is
the only thing that you can see and
you don't know what's going on.
And like, I found that quite scary.
Um, and you're just walking into that absolute,
like the unknown, you're like, I don't know
(34:27):
what's there.
I mean, you, you do want to have
an idea of where you are, um, and
what the landscape looks like.
It just feels like you want to know
that everything's okay.
And you can tell yourself it's okay though.
Let's just check.
There's no benefit.
And, and there's, you've, you've been, you know,
(34:49):
on the trail in the early morning and
the light comes, the sun comes up or
you, or you come up the top of
the top of the mountain and come out
of the forest, you know, your energy changes.
You, you get filled, you get renewed.
And it's like, what is it that's getting
renewed?
What is it that's changing?
(35:12):
It's, you know, it's beautiful.
It's freeing.
It's kind of open, but you know, my,
my muscles haven't changed.
My, my brain hasn't changed.
And it's kind of like an emotional thing.
And it's, you know, it's extraordinary, but it's
all coming from, you know, it's all coming
from within.
Um, and it's, you know, can you meditate
your way into being able to control that?
(35:35):
Or is it, I mean, where does it
come from?
And, you know, so there's a lot of
exploring that I felt I was doing just
of understanding energy.
Hmm.
Oh, what is the process?
Like, what is the process of songwriting like
for you?
And how does this compare to that process?
(36:02):
I think, I think songwriting can be, you
know, there's kind of like, you have a
kind of sort of songwriting checkpoints and energy
(36:23):
in this kind of similar way.
You know, you, you sometimes when I'm running
out, I'll get some kind of a, you
know, you make a, you make a sound,
you make a rhythm when you're running with
your backpack.
Sometimes you feel like there's a shaker kind
of always going just Yeah.
And be like, you know, you get into
that and it's, it's, it kind of moves,
(36:45):
you move around it and you're, you know,
you kind of get things in your head
or there's a little phrase or it's something
you've heard or something that you've been thinking
about and, and things can come kind of
out of nowhere.
And, you know, it doesn't mean that you
suddenly get a song right away, but you
know, you've got something, you've had something that's
(37:07):
kind of boiling or, you know, simmering around
in the background.
Now you've got something tangible to work around
and you kind of think, Oh, maybe this
could be a cool groove or a song,
or it's an interesting lyrical idea or, you
know, it's, it's the, you kind of have
to, you have to build it.
You have to build it and put it
(37:27):
together from, from a very small idea.
Yes.
Did you write any songs on the trail?
Did you, in your head, were you running
and writing poems or songs or anything come
into your mind as you're running like that?
(37:48):
Yeah.
There are things that came to my mind.
I didn't really have time to dwell too
much on them.
I feel like something, sometimes you can, you
can put things in your head and you
want to, you want to work on, but
they can just vanish quite easily.
If you, if you're not really, you're not
really up for it or you're not really,
(38:08):
don't really have the energy.
You're just kind of flooding away.
Are you going to come out with like
an album of music based on this experience
or a song that's based on this experience?
Do you have anything, you know, works like
that?
I'd like to come out with something, something
kind of, I mean, it was such an
(38:30):
inspiring time.
I mean, the, just some of the experiences
of, of being in the different territories just,
oh, it was so wonderful.
And some of the, you know, some of
the downsides, some of it, some of the
exhaustion, you're just, you're just digging so deep,
(38:52):
you're scraping the barrel for anything that, you
know, you can turn into energy to get
through the day.
It's, I would like to, I think I
would definitely draw on it for something.
Whether I'll sing a song about hitting the
(39:13):
hard miles, hard mile blues.
Yeah, maybe.
Did you do, and you know, cause I
saw, you know, the videos that you would
post online, it seems like you had a
crew of some sort.
What was like the, were you meeting up
with them every day or like every few
days?
Like how was that working with your crew?
(39:35):
Pretty much whenever it was possible.
I mean, sometimes by the end it would
be, it'd be every night and in the
middle of the day as much as possible,
just because it was so hot and there
was no water that I just had to
have.
I had to meet them just to refuel,
(39:58):
just to get to the end without evaporating.
But a lot of times in the Sierra
mountains, I wouldn't be able to see them
for days.
So I'd have my, I'd have a different
backpack with my camping gear.
And that was a bit more of a
challenge just because it was heavy and so
(40:22):
much climbing.
So I'd be camping on my own.
And then, yeah, it's just kind of as
often as, as often as possible, really, but
it's just where, where you can get into
the trail.
And how about like, were you meeting or
seeing other people along the way?
How were you connecting your story to other
(40:46):
people through this journey?
Yeah.
I mean, the, the trail is, you know,
it's like a foot wide.
So you, you bump into people all the
time.
I was doing it southbound.
So you bump into all the northbounders, especially
in Washington and Oregon and the north of
(41:09):
California, they kind of run out into the
Southern California.
But you know, it's, it's such a great,
it's such a great encounter because you know
something about them.
You seem to know something about the character
that they're up for this.
They're up for the challenge.
(41:30):
They're sort of, you know, they're, you kind
of, you meet on a good level, very
nice level.
And you, you have the chance to exchange
as much kind of, of your stories as
you like.
And there was some wonderful encounters with people,
complete surprises of where people came from, what
(41:53):
they were doing.
There's no kind of type.
I mean, there is a type of person
who likes hiking and camping, but you know,
I was always very surprised by the people
I met.
I got on very well with a lot
of people.
With some of the people that we've had
that have gone across the United States, they're
(42:15):
able to be a lot more public with
because they're on public roads.
And when they're going through towns or, you
know, wherever they're going, like the local news
or like the local town kind of hears
that they might be coming through.
And so people will come out and like
drive up on the road to meet them
and give them 20 bucks or just to
congratulate them.
And I've had the, the fortune of joining
(42:36):
some of these people on the road for
different days of their journey and, you know,
see how people would come out to support
them.
But was it were people able to do
that with you on the Pacific Crest Trail
where people kind of coming out to kind
of meet you and, and encourage you along
the way?
I think it was, it was.
(43:00):
No, I mean, yeah, we, we, I mean,
we made, we made friends and Anna, my
crew was, you know, she was kind of
on the roads and through the towns and
resupplying and, and she met a lot of
(43:21):
people and there, there, there was, there were
interactions, but it would be, we, we would
meet people, you know, in campsites and, and
people would be very encouraging, but there wouldn't
be anyone who knew what we were doing
before we were, before we talked about it
and kind of got into conversation about it.
(43:44):
So the more, the more public expression of
what you were doing to raise awareness for
mental health and suicide prevention was through your
social channels?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, and, and different breath features and stuff,
get the word out.
You talked a little bit about resilience before
(44:05):
and how do you think of resilience and
what did you learn about resilience along the
way?
I guess I'd say resilience as, as your,
(44:25):
you know, this is very Bear Grylls, but
your ability to sort of not give up,
not stack it in.
And, you know, you really, I mean, I
really had to cover the, the kilometers and
to do that, you, you know, you have
to be, you have, you have to be
(44:45):
up and at them and, and you have
to just be, you have to be moving,
have to keep moving and you have to
just figure out ways of, you know, playing
with your mind and playing with the, the,
the, the time and the hours and just
figure out how to do it.
(45:05):
And, you know, not, I guess you gotta
like control yourself.
Know that, well, I mean, one thing I
did learn is that a good night's sleep
is unbelievable what it can do, how it
can shift.
(45:26):
I mean, you can go to sleep absolutely
boiling mad what you set yourself and then
the exhaustion, the pain you've got yourself into,
you know, and a good night's sleep and
you're like, no, it's all right.
I can do it.
I can do it.
And you keep just having to like quietly,
kind of quietly converse with yourself and get,
(45:48):
and just get the body moving.
And it's, it's funny.
I think your, your body has its own
way of telling you to like stop and
rest and you have to kind of override
that.
And yeah, I mean, I think, you know,
(46:10):
being, being resilient is, is putting things into
not, is putting things into perspective and not,
not letting your mood dominate your, your kind
of entire psyche.
It's just a part of what's going on.
(46:31):
I like how you talked about the power
of a good night's sleep because sometimes resilience
is thought of as like a, a character
trait that people have, but sometimes it's just
something that you practice and, or things that
you need to, to do and a simple
thing like a good night's sleep or a
walk to clear your head.
(46:52):
Like these are, you know, I find that
with my own mental health, you know, cause
I have my own mental health struggles as
well.
And yeah, it can, it can spiral and
it can compound and trying to figure out
the mental side of it.
It's almost impossible, but there's certain, there's certain
(47:16):
simple physical things that I can do that
if I can get myself to do them,
because sometimes the mental side is so hard
that it's hard to fall asleep or it's
hard to get myself to, you know, get
up and go get out of bed to
go for a run.
But if you can practice those simple physical
things, it can make a world of difference
(47:36):
on the mental side.
But do you, for resilience, do you think
that you came to this with as a
resilient person or is resilience something that you
were looking to build along the way through
this experience or neither or both?
(48:00):
Like how do you, yeah, I think that's
I think, um, yeah, I think, I think
resilience, I think, you know, some people naturally,
you know, will, I guess people will have
different commitments and I see resilience is like
(48:24):
a muscle and it's like you, you,
you build it, you earn it, you know,
you've always got the blue pill, the red
pill, you can always, you know, you've always
got two options in your mind, you can
(48:44):
always, you know, keep going or leave it
where you're at.
And the more times you make the decision,
whether it's one way or the other, the
more times you're going to naturally go and
make that decision again.
And you will, it will be like a
(49:08):
mind muscle memory and you'll just, you'll start
making a habit of it.
And it's, you know, it's like, do I
want to camp here or do I want
to finish exactly the miles that I set
myself for the day?
And, you know, I'm like, this is a
beautiful place to camp, but it's five kilometers
(49:30):
short of where I set myself for the
day.
It doesn't matter whether I would actually camp
or keep going, but because I've just dialed
myself into this kind of like slightly obsessive,
obsessive neurotic, like desire, it's, it's just like
you, you go, you push repeat, you push
(49:51):
repeat and you just, you know, you just
complete.
And that was, I think, you know, I
did that every day, day in, day out.
It was, it just becomes a, a routine.
I think you can practice it.
I think you can practice resilience and I
think you can build on it.
(50:13):
And it's, you know, life's always going to
throw harder things and harder things, and you're
always going to have to face harder and
harder things, but it's very, it's, it's, you
know, it's one of two decisions a lot
of the time.
Do you have a certain like mental or
a certain thing that you tell yourself in
(50:35):
those moments when you have, when you're faced
with that decision, do you have a checklist
or a mantra or something that you say
to yourself to, to make you choose the
one decision over the other?
Yeah, I think when, when it starts getting
hard, you start kind of going through a
(50:55):
loop of the things that you think will
help you out.
Like, why am I doing this?
I'm raising money.
This, you know, we've got to a certain
amount of donations.
So yes, you're keeping going.
You can't sack it off now.
You can't waste this.
You know, you're just being lazy.
You know, you can, you just kind of
(51:16):
pet cork your way through it.
And it, you know, sometimes it's just about
getting out of your tent in the morning.
Do I want to get out when it's
still dark and it's ice on the tent
and it's freezing and, you know, you haven't
slept and, you know, your bag's heavy.
You just have to get up.
And once you're up, everything starts moving and
(51:38):
you're not going to get back into the
tent because it's, it's, it's not a good
place to be anyway.
You know, it's, it's just about, you know,
running and hiking is so, it's so simple.
It's just about getting yourself moving.
So I think there are, you know, there
are definitely mind games that you play with
(52:00):
yourself to get you through the day.
Sometimes if you've got, you know, you started
late and you've got 40 kilometers left and
you're like, oh, I can't face it.
And you're like, you're yelling into the middle
distance.
You know, you're, you know, you can't see
it.
You can't see yourself crossing the line, but
you know that there's no other option.
(52:23):
So you better start moving or like call
the, um, search and rescue team, which is,
you know, it's not going to happen.
But I do think it's, it's, it's a
habit.
It's a, it's a muscle memory thing.
It's practice.
(52:44):
How do you, other than, you know, running
90 marathons in 90 days on the Pacific
Crest Trail, how can the rest of us
practice that?
How would you recommend the rest of us
practice that?
Well, I think, I mean, I think, you
know, giving yourself space to exercise in your
(53:06):
daily routine is, is great.
Um, you know, there's things like having cold
showers and cold plunges help a lot of
people, um, you know, like reaching out and
speaking to people, talking to people when naturally
you're kind of more reclusive.
(53:29):
I think, you know, getting yourself out of
isolation is, um, you know, a big one
and connecting with people, meeting people.
I mean, that's where, you know, I think
it's, it's maintaining a level of energy.
So you're not, you don't have to rely
(53:50):
on your deep resilience.
It's, it's keeping yourself at a point where
you don't have to pep talk and fight
your way through the day.
It's, it's about keeping yourself buoyant and, you
know, energetic on some level.
(54:11):
So yeah.
Yeah.
I'm glad you said that.
Cause I always think of resilience, not as
like a individual characteristic, but whenever somebody says
the word resilient, I think of the term
resilient ecosystem.
And this is something that I've talked about
on the podcast before.
So people who listen to this regularly hear
(54:31):
me beat this drum a lot, but I
think of, um, you know, a monocrop is
very easy to wipe out if there's like
a pest, but if you have a field
of wildflowers, that's a diverse ecosystem.
That's much harder to what that's, um, that's
a resilient ecosystem is a diverse ecosystem.
There's a lot more to it.
And I find that for me, resilience is
(54:53):
less about like an individual trait, although partly
an individual trait that I can cultivate and
practice and do certain things about, but my
resilience comes from my ecosystem with people that
are a part of my life, uh, that,
and not being, and especially for mental health,
not being isolated and reaching out to connect
(55:16):
with the people that are important to me
is something that where I draw strength from.
That's so good.
Yeah.
That's so good.
You know, a resilient community.
I mean, that's perfect.
Um, how, and then just last time resilience,
how have you exposed, sorry, go ahead.
(55:39):
No, no, I wasn't going to say anything.
You might've, I you've been saying a lot
of it.
I was just going to ask you on
resilience, like how have you experienced resilience as
a musician?
And is that different than the ways that
you've experienced it as a runner?
(55:59):
Ah, I think, I think resilience is a,
I think being a resilient artist on any,
any, in any, uh, discipline is, is about,
you know, maintaining belief that you are an
(56:22):
artist and making art is a worthwhile pursuit
and you will fail and fail and fail
in your ambitions, in your career.
And that doesn't diminish you or your art.
(56:47):
It's, it's just, uh, you know, it's, it's,
it's just a, uh, you know, a fight
that you've got to face.
And I feel like I've done a lot
of that in my life as a, as
(57:09):
a singer, a songwriter, a performer, and, you
know, it's so, it's such a challenge, especially
like growing up in a big city like
London, where it's, you know, success, the way
you see success is seen as, you know,
(57:31):
dominance and, um, prosperity.
And, you know, unless you fulfill your, your
potential, you know, you're a failure and you
can often feel like a failure, even if
you're not a failure, you know, a lot
of people will see it, a particular artist
(57:53):
or a campaign is a huge success.
You know, they can see music is beautiful
and enriching and nourishing, but it could not,
it could, it could also not fulfill that
artist's ambitions.
And, you know, you could end up losing
money.
I mean, talking about losing money to, you
(58:15):
know, fellow musicians, it's like an absolute no
brainer.
It's a black hole of finance.
And it's, um, you really do have to
keep at it and find some way to
believe in yourself.
And, you know, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's
(58:37):
a lot, it's, it's a struggle really is.
So you kind of have to be, you
have to face that and you have to
keep bouncing back.
And, you know, you're the character that you
build.
It is what it will be.
(58:58):
What sustains you, what sustains your art and
what sustains your, your writing and everything.
Sounds like the resilience as a musician is
probably a lot harder than the resilience.
He has a runner.
Yeah, I would say.
So what's next for you either as a
(59:19):
musician or as a runner?
Well, my, my hunger and appetite for ultra
running right now is fully sated and I'm
I don't have any plans for this year.
Someone was suggesting, you know, rest up and
maybe get to the New York marathon in
(59:41):
November.
I was like, no, no, thank you.
But I'm releasing, I'm really, I've just released
a single four or five days ago, the
day I finished this run called nothing at
the most, and that's out everywhere.
And I'm releasing a, an album in at
(01:00:01):
the end of July, no, January.
And that's my next focus.
And is it, are these songs that you
created before the run or after the run?
Before the run.
Before, oh, after the run would just be
five days ago.
So.
(01:00:22):
So do you look, I mean, these songs
that you created before the run, do you
look at them differently now after the run?
You know, I didn't actually listen to any
of it while I was running.
I, I wanted to keep a decided kind
of space because before it, I was, you
know, thinking, you know, recording and then edits
(01:00:44):
and mixing and mastering and getting it all
how, how I wanted it to be.
So I listened to it a lot.
So, so I also left my favorite headphones
in the airport as I was coming out
here and I was like, I'm not listening
to them.
I'm listening to my masters on my shocks,
(01:01:06):
my shocks headphones.
That's like, I need a much better quality.
Yeah.
No, I do like shocks.
I do like shocks, but it's, and I
listened to, I listened to everything, but it
was just, yeah.
You really want to hear it in the
best, uh, like in volume, you know, boost.
Um, yeah.
(01:01:26):
So I think, I don't know.
I'm going to, I'm going to have a,
another lesson.
Maybe I'm annoyed actually that I didn't listen
to it while on the trail because it,
you, it, it can be a, you know,
wonderful experience listening to your music or your,
you know, your music that's close to you
while in dramatic surroundings doing something extreme.
(01:01:53):
Um, but it's, uh, yeah, I wonder how
it would change.
I, I do listen to the music that
I've released quite a lot.
I do, I do really enjoy that process,
how it kind of evolves and how you
change and how, how your kind of relationship
with it changes because, you know, a lot
of yourself goes into this, these kind of
(01:02:15):
creations.
So it's, it means a lot.
Yeah.
Excellent.
Well, are there any kind of calls to
action that you'd like to make to the
people who are hopefully listening to this and
walking along with us today?
Listen to my single, nothing at the most.
Nothing.
And we're on Spotify.
(01:02:36):
So, and also you changed your name.
So you used to be King Charles.
Now you're going by Charles Costa.
So they look, what do they look up
on Spotify?
Charles Costa.
Charles Costa.
Yeah.
Okay.
And, um, keep running, keep singing, let the,
get those lungs heaving and those, those hearts
beating.
(01:02:56):
Yeah.
Excellent.
Those, those are the drums, drums I hit.
Excellent.
So Charles Costa on Spotify, anything, anywhere else
that they should go?
Do you have a website?
Instagram.
Yeah.
Follow me on Instagram.
Charles Costa official.
Okay.
Yeah.
I think that's about it.
(01:03:17):
Excellent.
Thank you very much for sharing this with
us today and congratulations on an incredible achievement
and, uh, really, really cool.
Love what you love, what you've done.
And definitely, uh, kicks my curiosity too.
Yeah.
Maybe one day try something like that.
Definitely go for it.
(01:03:38):
It's this, the, the John Muir trail is,
is incredible.
Incredible.
I've heard.
Yeah.
John Muir, Pacific Crest, Appalachian.
Those are all things that kind of get
me, get me wondering.
Yeah, do it, man.
Excellent.
All right.
Well, thank you very much, Charles.
(01:03:59):
It was great to meet you.
Congratulations, uh, everyone out there.
Uh, hope you enjoyed this as much as
I did.
Every mile matters.
Great to speak to you, man.
Take care.
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