October 19, 2025 • 41 mins
Frommer's Author David McElhenny joined Pauline Frommer to discuss the culinary specialties of different Japanese regions, walking vacation opportunities that mirror the Camino de Santiago experience, ways to experience Japan's sizzling pop culture, and some strategies for saving money on a Japanese vacation.
Takeaways:
- Transportation in country is one of the highest costs travelers face, but buying a Japan Rail Pass may save you money. A look at its pros and cons.
- Accommodations can also take a bite out of the budget, so we discussed what capsule hotels are like, plus the more conventional but still affordable options most travelers prefer.
- Japan's culinary offerings are diverse and budget-friendly. We took a look at convenience store meals, Tokyo's Ramen scene, and the foods eaten in a region of Japan that has the most centenarians.
- Visiting off-the-beaten path Japan will get you out into some stunning nature areas, and into communities that really need the tourist business.
The Frommer's Travel Podcast was named one of the 13 best for travel by the New York Times. It is hosted by Pauline Frommer, the Publisher of the Frommer's guidebooks and Frommers.com, with new episodes issued weekly.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(01:01):
Welcome to the Fromer Travel Show.
I'm your host, Pauline Fromer,and we are celebrating today because
for the first time in over adecade, we have a new Fromer's Japan
book out.
In the interim, we had done abook just on Western Honshu, which
(01:21):
is the part of Japan that mostvisitors go to Tokyo, Kyoto and the
like.
But we realized that theentire nation deserved better coverage,
and so we went on a big searchto find the best author for that
job.
(01:42):
We found him.
He is on the phone right now.
His name is David McElhenney.
Did I pronounce your name right?
Almost, but I wouldn't worry about.
Everyone butchers it.
It's McElhenny.
McElhenny.
I've mostly talked to you andsaid just David.
So, yeah, most people do.
They say the name and theyavoid it.
(02:03):
Right.
And I think probably peoplecan hear from your accent that you
are not a Japanese native,that you come from Northern Ireland.
Correct?
Yes.
Yeah.
If the name didn't give itaway, I'm sure the accent will.
Yeah.
From Belfast, originally.
So how did you come to be whatI consider one of the finest Japan
(02:25):
experts I've ever encountered?
Thank you very much.
That's making me blush.
Well, it was sort of aspontaneous decision.
I was traveling a lot inSoutheast Asia, really, like that
part of the world.
I lived in China for sixmonths as a teacher.
I'm using inverted commasthere because I didn't do an awful
(02:46):
lot of teaching, but that wasmy official, official role.
And then I lived in Australiafor a year, which was fine, but I
was just kind of doing oddjobs on, like, building sites, worked
in call centers, things like that.
But I kind of felt drawn backto Asia, and I'd never been to Japan,
but it was always somewhere culturally.
(03:06):
They kind of fascinated me.
So I decided I would movethere for a year in principle to
teach English, and that turnedinto two, which turned into three,
and so on.
I just kind of fell in lovewith the place as I thought I might.
So, yeah, that's the verycontracted version.
Yeah.
And it's been seven years nowthat you've been in and around Japan.
(03:28):
Seven years, yeah, Sevenyears, yeah.
And writing about it extensively.
And as a writer, I don't thinkthis will come as a surprise to anybody.
You do not have funding thatis unlimited.
Right.
And Japan can be a very, veryexpensive country.
(03:48):
Well, it's less expensive nowbecause the Japanese yen is much
weaker against many worldcurrencies, including the US dollar.
But still, it is an overallExpensive place.
So what are some of the waysthat you, in the book and in your
daily life, talking with pals,tell people they can save money in
(04:12):
Japan?
Yeah, I think you kind oftouched on there.
It's like expensive is arelative term.
I mean, Japan certainly wasmore expensive than it is now.
But I think people always wantto try and save money where they
can.
And there are certain thingsin the country which, which are still
quite pricey.
Like I would say the numberone biggest expense.
Well, the two biggest expensesare accommodation and transport.
(04:34):
It's perhaps not unique toJapan, but with transport specifically,
what's expensive are thebullet trains which people will obviously
use to get around the countrybecause it's more convenient than
flying.
It is more expensive thanflying, but it's more convenient.
And I think people see thebullet train as like a travel experience
in and of itself, you know, so.
Well, I felt that way when Idid it.
I mean there is that momentwhere it just zooms out of the station.
(04:59):
I've always heard about theConcorde when that was flying.
And there was this momentwhere you were pressed back into
your seat and then yousuddenly rocketed forward and the
bullet train almost felt like that.
I mean the speed was, was.
I could feel it.
Yeah.
Now that you mention it, youdo get that sensation the first time
you take the bullet train.
But it's weird, you know, likeanything, when you start to do it
(05:21):
quite regularly, you sort offorget about that.
Yeah, it's an experience inand of itself.
So people will almostcertainly use the bullet train as
their primary method forgetting around the country.
A good way to save money onthat is through the JR pass, the
Japan Rail Pass, which youhave to get before you come to the
country.
It basically gives you like aone use ticket that you can or one
(05:43):
all encompassing ticket thatyou can use on all of the different
bullet trains that you'll useand local trains provided they're
operated by Japan Rail.
Now it gets a little bitconfusing in the cities because sometimes
they're.
A train might be run by aprivate operator or you know, might
be a metro line, which I thinkis sort of run by the city.
But in general it means thatyou have one ticket that you can
use on the majority of trainsthat you're going to get in the country.
(06:06):
Rather than like kind of goinginto the specifics of pricing, I
would say the, the best way tothink about it is like you.
You can go online to the JapanRail Pass fare calculator, kind of
taught up the journeys youthink you're probably going to do
see how much that's going tocost and then just cross reference
that with the price of the 7,14 or 21 day ticket.
Sometimes, you know, the 7 dayticket might be a little bit more
(06:29):
expensive than the amount oftrains you want to get in a seven
day period.
But you also might say, well,it's only a 2,3000 yen difference
and that's negligible giventhat I don't have to go through the
stress of getting a ticket foreach train I'm getting.
I mean, people who arethinking about going to Japan might
have read that there was a bigprice hike in the JR Pass recently.
It was a 69% price hike, whichis yikes.
(06:51):
Yeah, it is pretty yikes.
But to put that intoperspective, it was the first time
they had increased the pricesince like the 80s or something.
So.
And I think it was also kindof in line with the fact that the
yen had already weakened bythat stage and they were trying to
capitalize on touristsincreased purchasing power.
So I would say from a touristperspective, I still think it's like
(07:12):
a good value pass, but you canobviously arbitrate on that yourself
depending on where you plan on going.
Right.
And it's, and it's a price weshould note that the Japanese themselves
do not have access to.
This pass is only fortourists, which, you know, is an
interesting thing.
Usually there's something thatwe think of as the tourist tax where
(07:34):
tourists are charged more.
This has always been a verygenerous program, I thought, on behalf
of the railroad.
Yeah, that's true.
I mean I've, I've always, Imean recently actually I lost my
visa for the first time.
So the next time I go back toJapan, I will be there as a tourist.
But it means that I've neverhad access to this past myself.
And I've always, always beenjealous when people come to visit
(07:56):
and they're doing these, youknow, kind of wild, you know, trips
all around the country and anytime I join them I have to.
Yeah, pay the, pay thestandard fare.
So yeah, it is, it's great.
I mean there are, I would saytourists are taxed in other ways,
but when it comes to ridingthe bullet train.
Yeah, they, they certainly geta good deal.
Well, before I let you go onthat, how are, how are tourists taxed
(08:19):
in other ways, would you say?
There's been quite a lot inthe news over the past couple years
about over tourism in Japanand particular, I guess what one
good example to use is himejiCastle, which is probably the most
beautiful castle in Japan.
It's largely viewed as that.
(08:40):
Like, it's just really stunning.
It's in this city that'sbetween Kobe and Hiroshima.
A lot of people go to Himejijust to see the castle.
You know, the.
I think it was the city mayorI'm trying to remember now, but someone
from officialdom was basicallytrying to make tourists pay five
times the amount that localswould pay.
Wow.
Which in some respects it'slike, well, that seems like a huge
(09:03):
hike.
But at the same time, if Ithink if the purpose of it is to
only entice people who reallywant to go and see the castle, rather
than people who are walkingpast going, I'll go in, because it's
only whatever, 500, 1,000 yento see it.
I think if it's used in thatway, and therefore it does manage
the crowds a little bit, Idon't have much of a problem with
it.
But at the same time, youknow, there is the moral aspect of,
(09:25):
well, if we start levying thateverywhere and tourists have to pay
crazy money for everything,you know, that's its own issue.
But that's just one example.
And I think some restaurantswere floating.
In fact, I think somerestaurants actually did implement
that, but different prices on.
The English language menu orhow did it work?
Well, some of them were caughtsneakily doing that, unfortunately.
But I think there were somerestaurants in smaller towns and
(09:50):
stuff that basically saidlocals will only pay this price and
non locals will pay a bit more.
It certainly hasn't caughtfire and spread all around the country,
but there are little storieslike that.
And as there is some growingkind of unrest in certain corners
of the country about theamount of foreigners coming in on
a yearly basis and the numbersincreasing each year, then stories
(10:13):
like that will be in the news.
But I don't.
I don't expect that to beimplemented on a.
On a broad scale anytime soon.
Interesting.
All right, we'll go back tosaving money.
So you save money by gettingthe bullet train pass or the train
pass, which covers a lot ofdifferent trains.
You also need to save money onaccommodations, but there are hotels
(10:37):
or hotel types that don't exist.
Other places like capsulehotels, do you recommend those for
visitors and can you give adefinition of what those are, or
is that really just forJapanese businessmen?
Well, that's how they started.
They were kind of advertisedas these.
(10:57):
Yeah, kind of stopover placesfor Japanese businessmen.
Like if you go to some of theold ones, they still have, like corded
telephones and you know, stuffthat a businessman might need, you
know, when he's overnighting.
They're still used by youngertourists, I would say.
I don't mind them on occasionas like maybe to like show someone.
(11:17):
Like I see it as more of anovelty thing.
Like I, personally, I wouldn'tbook one myself typically if I was
going somewhere.
But it's worth seeing.
I mean we should define whatthese are before we go further.
Can, can you give a, a description?
Yeah, I mean, I guess the bestvisual aid I can give is like, you
know, imagine like a morguewas a hotel.
(11:37):
It's got these kind of likelines rather than pull out drawers.
They're just sort of likelittle kind of cubby holes that you
enter into and you have theentire space is, is just a bed with
maybe like a side shelf.
No, you can't stand up.
Maybe there's like a sideshelf and there'll be a charging
station or whatever.
(11:59):
And down the hall somewherewill be the locker area where you
can put your bag and all thatkind of stuff.
So is there, is it curtainedoff or is there more of a solid door
to your cubby?
It depends.
A lot of them would have kindof like, you know, pull down blinds
which you sort of hook at the bottom.
I mean they are quite.
(12:19):
They're private in a sense.
It's sort of like a hostelroom, but a bit more private.
That also means it has theattended noise that you get in a
hostel room but times byperhaps, you know, a factor of 10
because maybe there's 40people sleeping in the area.
So you hear every, you know,snore and fart and burp and you know,
(12:39):
rustling pillow and all therest of it.
But yeah, I mean, I guess it'skind of like an interesting thing
to maybe stay in.
They're cheap, like certainlycheaper than most other accommodation
options.
If you've got one night in aplace like I think, you know and
you want to check it out, whynot give it a go, right?
You know, what's the worstthat could happen kind of thing.
If you are claustrophobic oryou really like, you know, home comforts
(13:02):
and things like that, maybegive them a miss.
Another thing actually is alot of them have like, they're basically
designed for one night staysso that if you're between the usual
checkout and check in time,you would have to take all of your
stuff out of it and back in again.
Oh wow.
Which is super inconvenient.
That kind of defeats thepurpose of staying in a hotel to
begin with.
Right, right.
So, yeah, yeah.
(13:22):
I mean, I. I see them more as,like, kind of, you know, curiosities
than something I'd like tostay in with any regularity.
But, you know, to each their own.
Yeah.
One of the things thatsurprisingly, isn't expensive in
Japan, I found when I've beenthere, I've been there a couple of
times, is food.
You can get very decent foodin convenience stores.
(13:44):
You can get a wonderful mealfor less than the equivalent of $10
at a noodle place.
That, to me, is not one of themajor expenses.
Were you going to give anothertip for saving money?
Did I cut you off with thecapsule hotels?
No, I mean, I guess just tofinish off on the accommodation point.
(14:04):
It's like a very sort of brief point.
But there are some really nicechain hotels you can stay in.
Like, one of the most famousones is Apa or Apa, another one called
My Stays.
And they're like just basic,you know, chain hotels, but done
well.
You know, I would say they're.
They're pretty comfortable.
The amenities are quite good,and it's often a good way to cut
costs rather than staying inmaybe a nice kind of boutique accommodation
(14:27):
or something that's a bitfancier in one of the more popular
areas.
But, yeah, on.
On food.
Yeah, I mean, I completely agree.
I think Japanese food is, forme, it's.
It's probably the greatestfood culture on earth.
There are certainly a couplethat could give it a run for its
money.
And I'm probably biased giventhe amount of time I've spent there.
But part of what impressed meabout it is the, you know, when I
(14:48):
moved there, I thought it waslike sushi and ramen.
I didn't really know that waskind of like the extent of my Japanese
culinary knowledge.
But there's amazing depth and complexity.
And like, every region willhave a mei butsu, which is sort of
like a regional specialty.
Usually it's some kind of food.
It might just be like noodlesmade a certain way or a certain type
of, you know, pounded ricecake, or maybe it's like a certain
(15:12):
fish or, you know, beef thatthey do a certain way.
Often they'll have multiple,you know, specialities.
So that aspect of it, really,of it is really cool, as is the fact
that you can get good food atevery price range.
So like you said, you can goto, you know, some of the best ramen
shops you'll ever eat in inyour life, and you're paying 10 bucks,
maybe current exchangeprobably less for a bowl of ramen.
(15:34):
That's a big, hearty plate offood, you know, that's been simmering
for 14 hours or something like that.
You know, it's like, it'sincredible really, what you can get
for very little money.
Then, of course, you've gotthe super expensive sushi restaurants,
you've got, you know, all thatkind of stuff.
Yeah.
And in Tokyo alone, you know,there's like 300 plus Michelin stars
across however many restaurants.
(15:54):
Might even be more than that.
Might even be 500 across 300 restaurants.
I can't remember exactly, butit's a lot.
It's the most in the world anyway.
So you've got a lot of stuffat that end of the spectrum.
And like you mentioned, eventhe convenience store foods, like
in, in the UK and from myexperience in America, you know,
if you went to 711 orsomething like that, if they have
a hot, hot food counter, thefood's usually pretty bad.
(16:15):
Oh, terrible.
Being charitable.
Yeah, yeah.
Get you sick bad.
Yeah, yeah.
Whereas in Japan, that food isobviously, it's very cheap, you know,
because of the, the type offood that is.
But like the hot chicken,actually really good.
Yeah.
The sandwiches are nice.
They might be filled with msg,but, you know, you're never going
to get the healthiest food ina, in a convenience store to begin
(16:36):
with.
But, Right.
Like they're famous to thepoint that there's loads of YouTube
vlogs and stuff that cover thekind of subculture of Japanese convenience
store food.
So if you're interested, it'sworth going to check some of them
out.
You know, it's like they dofruit sandwiches and all these, you
know, strange flavors of KitKats and things like that.
And yeah, like.
(16:57):
And they're all open 24 7, soa great place to stop late at night,
you know, if you need a.
Need a bite to eat before yougo to bed or whatever.
Now, in terms of regionalspecialties, going back to that briefly,
is there a region you thinkthat has the best food in Japan or
the most interesting?
Wow.
Yeah, that's a good question.
I mean, the boring answer isprobably Tokyo.
(17:17):
Just because it's got, Ithink, the greatest, it's got the
most innovation in food.
Like, Japan is quitesteadfastly against change when it
comes to cultural traditions.
Whereas if you look at likethe ramen space in Tokyo, there's
lots of really innovativethings going on.
Lots of the kind of bestmodern fine dining restaurants there
are not these sort of superserious, you know, have no fun, eat
(17:40):
the food, buy say thank youand then get the hell out of here
type places which used to belike the entire kind of upper end
of the, the dining market in Japan.
In Tokyo there's a lot morekind of like very homely places that
are still serving food that'slike 1, 2 Michelin star quality,
you know.
So that's the kind of boringanswer I'm trying to think of, you
know, something that's maybe abit more interesting.
Oh, Kyotango is a cool area.
(18:03):
It's, it's part of Kyotoprefecture, but if you go to the
kind of the coastal area, soI'm just called Kyoto by the sea
actually.
And they produce a lot offoods there with koji, which is the
fungal mold that, that's usedin like sake production and stuff.
And it has I think more than100 enzymes that facilitate digestion.
(18:25):
So there's lots of reallygood, like miso, soy sauce, rice
wine vinegar.
They produce a lot of thatstuff there.
And then obviously they serveit with the different rice noodle,
you know, dishes, etc.
Fish that they make in the region.
But that fungal mokouji issupposedly really beneficial to longevity.
So Okinawa is usually the mostfamous place for centenarians or
(18:48):
people that live beyond 100 in Japan.
But there was a study in 2019,albeit I think with a smaller sample
size, that found that in KilTango they have almost three times
as many centenarians as thenational average.
And the oldest guy that everlived actually lived there as well.
He was 116 when he died.
Born.
Oh my goodness.
(19:08):
Yeah, he lived through three centuries.
Yeah, born in 1897, died in 2013.
Kind of amazing, right?
Yeah.
So yeah, a lot of the locals,if you speak to like, you know, local
producers and stuff downthere, like food producers, they'll
always credit koji as like thekind of the, I don't know, the, the
elixir of, you know, long lifeor whatever.
(19:29):
Right.
And just as an aside, ifanyone wants to visit that region,
there's a woman called JunkoHamilton who's Japanese, grew up
in the Kyoto area, but shelived in Ireland for 10 years and
she runs cooking classes andcan kind of explain all this stuff
to you and fluent English andyeah, you'll get to cook foods with
koji and try different kojimade products.
(19:50):
The restaurant called Table.
Table.
Table is the name of therestaurant, but I think it's T A
B L E T A B E L or that's theother way around.
I can't remember, but it's inthe book.
If you buy, if you buy thebook, you'll find it.
Get the book.
Get the book.
That's what we're here to say.
Now, you were talking a Momentago about YouTube, YouTubers doing
(20:11):
convenience store food videos,which brings us to the pop culture
side of Japan.
You have a beautiful phrase inthe book.
You say it's their soft powerbasically that the whole world has
been taken over by anime andmanga and other Japanese incredibly
creative ways of seeing the world.
(20:33):
It used to be that people wentto Japan strictly to visit temples
and have kaiseki meals andindulge in traditional Japanese culture.
But now a lot of people gothere to see what's happening on
the cutting edge, what'shappening in youth culture, what's
happening in these newartistic expressions.
So if people are interested inthat side of Japan, where do they
(20:57):
go?
What do they do?
Yeah, it's an interestingtrend, isn't it?
I mean, I'm kind of of thatgeneration, you know, I'm 31, so
I'm that generation that grewup playing Pokemon, you know, getting
Pokemon cards in Yu Gi.
Oh, all that kind of stuff.
So I was certainly influencedthat by that stuff myself.
So I get, I do get the, theincentive to travel to Japan to kind
(21:19):
of see that side of it.
Like a lot of things, Tokyo issort of the beating heart of that,
particularly an area calledAkihabara, which to anyone who has
done any research about likepop culture Japan will have come
across that place.
It's, it's the Mecca, youknow, and it's just a cool area in
general.
You know, it's like a bigthoroughfare, just neon lights, you
know, on either side andfilled with arcades and retro, retro
(21:42):
game stores, all that kind of stuff.
Another area of Tokyo that'squite famous, particularly for women
is called Otome Road, whichliterally means maiden Road.
And it's in Ikebukuro, whichis sort of north west ish of the
city.
And it's particularly famousfor doujinshi, which are like basically
fanzines.
(22:04):
So the sort of thing that ifit was, if it was in America or the
uk, it would, these thingswould fall out of every copyright
law of the legislature.
Like they're, they're, they'recompletely illegal.
But loads of doujinshi artistsare really talented, so the industry
just kind of lets it pass.
And then sometimes they co opt those.
(22:25):
Before we go further, fan zines.
So these are magazines made byfans in the style of more Famous
artists.
Is that the way to put it?
Yeah, I think so.
I guess the.
Yeah, I guess that's how Iwould put it.
Yeah.
And often you might get, forexample, a character from one famous
series and a character foranother famous series, and the fanzine
(22:48):
will be those two charactersin some kind of romantic relationship
or whatever.
I see.
So this is the area wherethey're produced.
But why would a visitor go there?
Would they experience any ofthis culture there?
So this is the area where the.
Yeah, the shops are that sell those.
Oh, I see.
I see.
Yeah.
So it's famous for.
(23:08):
For that, actually, and alsofor cosplay.
So, you know, lots of womenespecially, again, would go and buy
costumes of their favoriteanime and manga heroines.
And then in that same area inIkebukuro, there's a Halloween cosplay
festival.
So if you're there that timeof year and you're into cosplay,
that's the place to go to bothget your.
Get your gear on to flaunt iton the street, I guess.
(23:31):
Wow.
So thousands of people incrazy costumes all over the place.
Yeah, so, yeah.
Yeah, it is.
You know, it's like there'sobviously huge songs.
I mean, even the word cosplay,like, we kind of think of it as like
an English word, but it wasactually a Japanese portmanteau of
(23:51):
two English words, likekosuple, you know.
Yeah.
Which I already discoveredthat not that long ago.
And I was.
What does cost mean, though?
I'm not sure.
They've taken the Englishwords costume and play and just squeeze
them together into their own words.
Yeah.
Oh, wow.
I didn't know that.
I just thought it meant, like,duo play, like co play.
(24:12):
But no, it's costume play.
Oh, yeah.
That's an interesting way tothink of it etymologically, actually.
Yeah.
I guess I hadn't.
I just hadn't questioned it.
It's like, you know, when youhear and see a word enough, you just.
It just is that word.
It was only probably about ayear or so ago myself that I realized
it was of Japanese origin.
Japanese English origin, ifthat makes sense.
Yeah, Very interesting.
(24:34):
And I have a dear friend, MikeFoster, who is a professor of Japanese
mythology, and he's written awhole bunch of books on the fact
that we are seeing mythologybeing created in real time in Japan.
You know, we think ofmythology as being something that
maybe was part of religioneons ago and is something in the
(24:57):
past.
And in Japan, he feels thatwhat's going on with this very intense
Culture around what we'd callcartoons is actually a rejiggering
of the mythologicalhierarchies of the Japanese mind.
(25:18):
Yeah, that's.
Yeah, that's interesting.
I mean, a lot of these places,you know, in the same vein, they
do feel like temples toJapanese pop culture to different
series.
I mean, a good exampleactually to throw in another one
is Kyoto.
Just outside Kyoto, theyrecently opened the Nintendo Museum.
It's just the first sort ofmuseum of its kind.
And it really does feel like a.
(25:40):
Almost like a religious, youknow, ode to this very storied Japanese
video game maker, console, developer.
And it's a really coolexperience that getting a ticket
for it is a nightmare.
You've got to go through thissort of convoluted lottery system
and then call a Japanesenumber and then you get your ticket
(26:01):
sent by QR code.
Oh my goodness.
A couple days before.
Yeah, it's, it's a pain.
But the, the one advantage ofthat is that they have very controlled
numbers that can be in themuseum at any one time, which obviously
benefits the user experience.
And also in the, the main topfloor, which is kind of all the archives
of all the old games andperipherals and box arts and destruction
(26:24):
manuals, all that kind of stuff.
You can't take any photos inthere, which I think is great because
otherwise it would just beselfie sticks everywhere and influencers
blocking all of the displaysand all that kind of stuff.
That's not to be sportsinfluencers, but, you know.
Yeah, I've experienced thatenough times in places like that
that I think that's what wouldhave, that's what would have happened.
So before you go on from that,so it sounds like a really difficult
(26:46):
process.
Is it all in Japanese or can Americans.
Can non Japanese speakers goto this museum?
Yeah, yeah, it's an, it's an English.
Like, I think it's kind ofcreated as the experience for the
wider J tourism market, Iwould say as a lot of modern museums
and things are built with thatin mind.
(27:09):
So, yeah, very, veryapproachable for English speakers.
And as is the, the ticketingsystem is all in English as well.
It's, it's convoluted morefrom like a design perspective rather
than a language perspective.
If, I mean for anyonelistening who's got any affiliation
for Nintendo, I do recommendgoing because it's a, it's a cool
experience.
Cool.
Okay, now at the verybeginning of our talk, you brought
(27:33):
up the fact that Japan isgetting over touristed, that there
are certain areas that arejust too Damn crowded to be as enjoyable
as they used to be.
And I know you took it veryseriously, wanting as a guidebook
writer, to show that otherparts of the country that people
don't think of going to are asintriguing, as rewarding to go to.
(27:59):
So let's talk about some ofthe places that people don't think
of going to, but really should.
Sure, yeah.
I think you've got to strikethat balance, don't you?
You know, if lots of people,especially if they're going to Japan
for the first time, they'regoing to want to go to Tokyo, Kyoto,
probably Osaka, maybeHiroshima, maybe Hakone, something
like that.
So you've absolutely got tocater to that.
(28:20):
But I think also there's someresponsibility to kind of show people
that Japan is actually a muchbigger country than that golden route
as it's known.
And furthermore, lots of theplaces, especially smaller places
in Japan, are suffering fromdepopulation and economic malaise
and all that kind of stuff.
So if you go and visit some ofthe smaller towns around the country,
(28:43):
every dollar yen you spendthere actually has a bit of an impact.
So from an ethical standpointas well, I think it's good to try
and vary things a little bitwhen you travel, but, I mean, it's
up to the traveler in question.
My job is not to tell anybodywhat to do.
Sure.
From an ethical standpoint.
And would it also be fair tosay, from a welcoming standpoint,
(29:03):
are they excited to seetourists in a way that maybe folks
in Kyoto and Tokyo won't be?
Yeah, for sure.
Just to take an example, fromNiyodo in the center of Kochi Prefecture
on Shikoku island, they kindof do need you.
You know, like every penny youspend there is, like, actually beneficial
to the town in a way that, youknow, tour buses coming into certain
(29:25):
places and just, you know,buying food from a convenience store
and drinks from a vending machine.
And the.
The money kind of doesn'treally go to any, like, independent
people living in certainareas, if that's kind of the method
by which you travel.
And to come back to that, thatplace in the Odo, just to give a
bit more.
Yeah.
Tell us about context as towhat it's like.
So it's right up in the.
The heart of the KochiPrefecture in the mountains.
(29:48):
It's this sort of thundering gorge.
And on this little precipicein the gorge, there's a guy called
Ken Mukai.
He's got a Japanese name, buthe's actually from California.
I'm not sure what his ancestryis, but he grew up as a.
Grew up in California.
He taught as a science teacherin the public school system there,
and then decided to move toone of the most rural places you
(30:10):
could find in Japan to brew beer.
So he's got this little tinymicrobrewery and tap room literally
perched right over this gorge.
And the water in the gorgeitself is called Neodo Blue, which
is.
It's kind of like known asthat because it's got this, like,
very clear, very clean water.
Like the artesian springs, Ithink, are, like, neutral.
(30:30):
So basically gives him acanvas to create any beer he wants
from it.
When I visited him, he wastelling me they have like a residence
magazine.
They get sent out.
And since he moved there,which was like 2020 or something,
not an auspicious time to moveanywhere and start a new business.
But since he's moved there,the number of residents per kilometer
(30:52):
squared has dropped by likefour, I think, from like 17 to 13,
something like that.
Because they get these figuresin the residence magazine I mentioned,
and he's named one of hisbeers 18, the number 18 because he's
trying to get the populationper square kilometer back up to that
number.
So, yeah, going somewhere likethat, you know, visiting these places,
(31:12):
speaking to these people.
There's an end just across thebridge, which is at a former elementary
school run by the former students.
And you kind of get a sensethat, like, oh, yeah, me being a
tourist here is actuallyhaving a positive impact rather than
a negative one.
Sure, yeah.
Or just kind of a scourge.
You go there through the brewery.
You go there to see theincredible, gorgeous.
(31:35):
But I mean, maybe I'm aselfish person.
I think that most people won'ttravel just to be good.
You know, it's their time off.
So why else do you go there?
What are the other attractions?
What do you see there and dothere that you won't find elsewhere?
Yeah, no, that's.
That's a good question.
A lot of people would sort ofraise their eyebrows at that, I guess.
(31:56):
I mean, first of all, it's astunning area to drive through.
So if you're able to rent a car.
Granted, not everyone is, butif you're able to rent a car, it's
really nice driving throughthat area.
There's lots of, like,canyoning activities, rafting, lots
of outdoor stuff.
You can hike around there.
There are onsen hot springs,so you can go and, you know, relax
(32:18):
in a.
In an outdoor hot spring.
So it's more of a.
An outdoors person's Kind of a destination.
But if that appeals to you, orif you feel like I'm traveling quite
a lot in the cities, Iwouldn't mind taking like 4 days
to just go and get completelyoff GR.
I recommend somewhere like that.
And as I said, that's just oneof the examples.
There are other slightlycloser to civilization examples of
(32:40):
places where your tourismdollars can have more of a positive
impact, I would say, on thelocal communities.
I know also, you know, theCamino de Santiago in Spain has become
very, very popular.
It's a walking pilgrimage, basically.
I've heard there's a temple totemple pilgrimage in Japan now that
a lot of people are doing.
(33:01):
Do you know about that?
Yeah.
Well, it's interesting youmentioned the, the Camino because
it actually has a sister trailin Japan of Wakayama, which is not
the one you're referring to,but I'll come to that in a second.
So the one in Wakayama is, Iguess the kind of brief version of
the story is that it's.
(33:21):
It tells the tale of Japan'sfirst emperor who got lost in these
mountains.
And then a three legged crowlands on a branch.
He follows the crow throughthese mountains and then attacks
his enemy with the rising sunat his back.
Wins and finds Japan,basically is what happens.
(33:42):
So his former routeessentially is charted by the sister
trail which is called theKumano Koro, which is in Wakayama,
quite close to Osaka.
That's actually like a coolone today, which is it doesn't require
too much travel away from kindof the main tourism route.
And the one you're referringto is the Shikoku pilgrimage, which.
(34:03):
But before we leave this one,you mentioned the rising sun.
Was this the inspiration forthe flag?
Yeah, yeah, basically.
So the rising sun is a sungoddess called Amaterasu, who's one
of the main deities in Shintomythology, Shinto being the sort
(34:25):
of predominant nationalreligion there.
Ah, okay.
All right.
Sorry.
Sorry to interrupt you.
No, no, you were talking aboutthe other route.
Yeah, the Shikoku pilgrimage.
So that basically follows the idea.
It's kind of a loose idea, butthe idea is that Shikoku island is
a mandala.
So like a Buddhist diagram ofeternal spiritual truths or something
(34:48):
like that.
And there's 88 temples thatkind of go around the island sort
of in a circle, a little bitinto the middle and then back, back
out around to where they started.
And they're in honor of a monkknown as Kukai or Kobo Daishi.
And he didn't actuallyestablish or build all of those temples.
(35:09):
I think he maybe establishedsome of them, and then this route
sort of formed an honor to him.
So lots of people do that, notnecessarily because they have any
affiliation to.
I think it's Shingon Buddhism,which is quite an esoteric sect of
the religion, but just becauseit's kind of a cool thing to do,
you know, it's a good way to disconnect.
Takes about six to eightweeks, which, granted, is longer
(35:32):
than the average traveler isgoing to have in Japan.
Right.
But like the Camino, I guess,you know, you can come and do a week
here, two weeks there, youknow, split it up whatever way you
want.
Maybe you can just pick, like,oh, here's four temples that are
a decent enough distance awayfrom each other.
Why don't I just follow that route?
You know, there's no.
There is a prescribed routeyou can follow, but, you know, of
(35:54):
course you can do it whicheverway you please.
Like, there are lots ofdifferent access points in terms
of airports and ferry portsand train stations and things like
that.
So you're not.
You don't have to Start atTemple 1 or Temple 88, if that makes
sense.
And, like, the Camino, do youhave people from all over the world
doing this?
So it's a very social activity?
(36:16):
Yeah, very much so.
I've never actually walked itmyself, but I've.
The last time I was inShikoku, I made a point of driving
to as much of it as I could,as I could fit in.
And I. I would stop off atvarious temples and go and sort of
accost people and try and askthem questions about why they were
doing it.
And, yeah, you do.
You get people from all overthe place.
Like, you know, I met anAmerican guy who was.
(36:37):
He'd worked in, like, tech forquite a few years and just decided
that he wanted to kind ofdisconnect, I guess, from the world
for a little while.
So he was doing the full thing.
I budgeted about eight weeksfor it.
And he said, it's amazing, youknow, you.
You walk along the road and.
Because pilgrims often wearthe same clothes.
(36:57):
They wear conical straw hatsand these white kind of garments
and have a stick that peoplewill just stop and maybe give you
some money, like, just like acouple hundred yen to get a drink
at the next vending machine orsomething, or maybe they'll give
you some fresh produce fromtheir farm.
But he said that thegenerosity you see from strangers
(37:18):
when you're a pilgrim on thattrail is, yeah, kind of amazing.
So that's a cool aspect of it.
You know, Japanese people areknown for being generous and friendly,
and I think they.
They really respect.
On that island, they.
They respect the tradition ofthe Shikoku pilgrimage.
So they'll always help people out.
And there are inns, you know,and campsites and things.
(37:39):
You can stay out.
There are some rest stops.
I think you can stay in for free.
There are temples that willalso give free accommodation.
Interesting.
So it's a whole ecosystemcreated for the pilgrimage.
Yeah.
And it's still.
It's still not super popular,but it's, I think, becoming popular
enough that it's, I guess it'sbecoming more approachable for non
(38:01):
Japanese.
Right.
Tourists to do.
Interesting.
Well, as you can see, David isa wealth of information and he poured
it all into Fromer's Japan.
We are so thrilled with thejob you did, David.
Thank you so, so much fordoing this great book and also for
appearing on the FrommerTravel Show.
That was great.
(38:21):
Thank you very much.
And you know, I hope.
Well, I hope people buy it, ofcourse, but I hope if they do that
they find a lot of value in it.
You know, it's.
Writing a guidebook is.
Is difficult, but it's a laborof love, you know, in a lot of ways.
You know, you gotta enjoydoing it.
But I think it's turned outwell, so I hope people agree.
I know it has your editor,Holly, felt.
(38:43):
It's one of the best books wehave in our series.
Oh, that's great.
Many thanks to Holly as well.
Yeah.
All right, that's it fortoday's show.
I thank you so much for listening.
If you like the show, be sureto give us a nice 5 star rating.
To those who are traveling,may I wish you a hearty bon voyage.
(39:13):
Sour candy on the table.
Lazy afternoons in yoursweatpants Watching table.
Well, it feels so far away.
All the channels seem the same.
(39:34):
Trying to remember all thesongs we like to play.
Cause those lazy afternoonsdon't come so frequently these days
long And I cannot help butwonder Are you ever coming home?
(39:55):
I like you with your sourcandy in the boat house on the lake
oh, but I hate, I hate, Ihate, I hate, I hate, I hate the
way it tastes.
(40:18):
I can't get you off of my.
Mind.
Looking out the window wherewe spend so much of our time.
Cause I miss the way it bel.
But I guess you can't controlthose damn cards.
(40:39):
Babe, I know the both of usare happy when we're free.
But would it be so hard tofind your freedom here?
With me.
Welcome to the Fromer Travel Show.
I'm your host, Pauline Fromer,and we are celebrating today because
for the first time in over adecade, we have a new Fromer's Japan
book out.
In the interim, we had done abook just on Western Honshu, which
(01:21):
is the part of Japan that mostvisitors go to Tokyo, Kyoto and the
like.
But we realized that theentire nation deserved better coverage,
and so we went on a big searchto find the best author for that
job.
(01:42):
We found him.
He is on the phone right now.
His name is David McElhenney.
Did I pronounce your name right?
Almost, but I wouldn't worry about.
Everyone butchers it.
It's McElhenny.
McElhenny.
I've mostly talked to you andsaid just David.
So, yeah, most people do.
They say the name and theyavoid it.
(02:03):
Right.
And I think probably peoplecan hear from your accent that you
are not a Japanese native,that you come from Northern Ireland.
Correct?
Yes.
Yeah.
If the name didn't give itaway, I'm sure the accent will.
Yeah.
From Belfast, originally.
So how did you come to be whatI consider one of the finest Japan
(02:25):
experts I've ever encountered?
Thank you very much.
That's making me blush.
Well, it was sort of aspontaneous decision.
I was traveling a lot inSoutheast Asia, really, like that
part of the world.
I lived in China for sixmonths as a teacher.
I'm using inverted commasthere because I didn't do an awful
(02:46):
lot of teaching, but that wasmy official, official role.
And then I lived in Australiafor a year, which was fine, but I
was just kind of doing oddjobs on, like, building sites, worked
in call centers, things like that.
But I kind of felt drawn backto Asia, and I'd never been to Japan,
but it was always somewhere culturally.
(03:06):
They kind of fascinated me.
So I decided I would movethere for a year in principle to
teach English, and that turnedinto two, which turned into three,
and so on.
I just kind of fell in lovewith the place as I thought I might.
So, yeah, that's the verycontracted version.
Yeah.
And it's been seven years nowthat you've been in and around Japan.
(03:28):
Seven years, yeah, Sevenyears, yeah.
And writing about it extensively.
And as a writer, I don't thinkthis will come as a surprise to anybody.
You do not have funding thatis unlimited.
Right.
And Japan can be a very, veryexpensive country.
(03:48):
Well, it's less expensive nowbecause the Japanese yen is much
weaker against many worldcurrencies, including the US dollar.
But still, it is an overallExpensive place.
So what are some of the waysthat you, in the book and in your
daily life, talking with pals,tell people they can save money in
(04:12):
Japan?
Yeah, I think you kind oftouched on there.
It's like expensive is arelative term.
I mean, Japan certainly wasmore expensive than it is now.
But I think people always wantto try and save money where they
can.
And there are certain thingsin the country which, which are still
quite pricey.
Like I would say the numberone biggest expense.
Well, the two biggest expensesare accommodation and transport.
(04:34):
It's perhaps not unique toJapan, but with transport specifically,
what's expensive are thebullet trains which people will obviously
use to get around the countrybecause it's more convenient than
flying.
It is more expensive thanflying, but it's more convenient.
And I think people see thebullet train as like a travel experience
in and of itself, you know, so.
Well, I felt that way when Idid it.
I mean there is that momentwhere it just zooms out of the station.
(04:59):
I've always heard about theConcorde when that was flying.
And there was this momentwhere you were pressed back into
your seat and then yousuddenly rocketed forward and the
bullet train almost felt like that.
I mean the speed was, was.
I could feel it.
Yeah.
Now that you mention it, youdo get that sensation the first time
you take the bullet train.
But it's weird, you know, likeanything, when you start to do it
(05:21):
quite regularly, you sort offorget about that.
Yeah, it's an experience inand of itself.
So people will almostcertainly use the bullet train as
their primary method forgetting around the country.
A good way to save money onthat is through the JR pass, the
Japan Rail Pass, which youhave to get before you come to the
country.
It basically gives you like aone use ticket that you can or one
(05:43):
all encompassing ticket thatyou can use on all of the different
bullet trains that you'll useand local trains provided they're
operated by Japan Rail.
Now it gets a little bitconfusing in the cities because sometimes
they're.
A train might be run by aprivate operator or you know, might
be a metro line, which I thinkis sort of run by the city.
But in general it means thatyou have one ticket that you can
use on the majority of trainsthat you're going to get in the country.
(06:06):
Rather than like kind of goinginto the specifics of pricing, I
would say the, the best way tothink about it is like you.
You can go online to the JapanRail Pass fare calculator, kind of
taught up the journeys youthink you're probably going to do
see how much that's going tocost and then just cross reference
that with the price of the 7,14 or 21 day ticket.
Sometimes, you know, the 7 dayticket might be a little bit more
(06:29):
expensive than the amount oftrains you want to get in a seven
day period.
But you also might say, well,it's only a 2,3000 yen difference
and that's negligible giventhat I don't have to go through the
stress of getting a ticket foreach train I'm getting.
I mean, people who arethinking about going to Japan might
have read that there was a bigprice hike in the JR Pass recently.
It was a 69% price hike, whichis yikes.
(06:51):
Yeah, it is pretty yikes.
But to put that intoperspective, it was the first time
they had increased the pricesince like the 80s or something.
So.
And I think it was also kindof in line with the fact that the
yen had already weakened bythat stage and they were trying to
capitalize on touristsincreased purchasing power.
So I would say from a touristperspective, I still think it's like
(07:12):
a good value pass, but you canobviously arbitrate on that yourself
depending on where you plan on going.
Right.
And it's, and it's a price weshould note that the Japanese themselves
do not have access to.
This pass is only fortourists, which, you know, is an
interesting thing.
Usually there's something thatwe think of as the tourist tax where
(07:34):
tourists are charged more.
This has always been a verygenerous program, I thought, on behalf
of the railroad.
Yeah, that's true.
I mean I've, I've always, Imean recently actually I lost my
visa for the first time.
So the next time I go back toJapan, I will be there as a tourist.
But it means that I've neverhad access to this past myself.
And I've always, always beenjealous when people come to visit
(07:56):
and they're doing these, youknow, kind of wild, you know, trips
all around the country and anytime I join them I have to.
Yeah, pay the, pay thestandard fare.
So yeah, it is, it's great.
I mean there are, I would saytourists are taxed in other ways,
but when it comes to ridingthe bullet train.
Yeah, they, they certainly geta good deal.
Well, before I let you go onthat, how are, how are tourists taxed
(08:19):
in other ways, would you say?
There's been quite a lot inthe news over the past couple years
about over tourism in Japanand particular, I guess what one
good example to use is himejiCastle, which is probably the most
beautiful castle in Japan.
It's largely viewed as that.
(08:40):
Like, it's just really stunning.
It's in this city that'sbetween Kobe and Hiroshima.
A lot of people go to Himejijust to see the castle.
You know, the.
I think it was the city mayorI'm trying to remember now, but someone
from officialdom was basicallytrying to make tourists pay five
times the amount that localswould pay.
Wow.
Which in some respects it'slike, well, that seems like a huge
(09:03):
hike.
But at the same time, if Ithink if the purpose of it is to
only entice people who reallywant to go and see the castle, rather
than people who are walkingpast going, I'll go in, because it's
only whatever, 500, 1,000 yento see it.
I think if it's used in thatway, and therefore it does manage
the crowds a little bit, Idon't have much of a problem with
it.
But at the same time, youknow, there is the moral aspect of,
(09:25):
well, if we start levying thateverywhere and tourists have to pay
crazy money for everything,you know, that's its own issue.
But that's just one example.
And I think some restaurantswere floating.
In fact, I think somerestaurants actually did implement
that, but different prices on.
The English language menu orhow did it work?
Well, some of them were caughtsneakily doing that, unfortunately.
But I think there were somerestaurants in smaller towns and
(09:50):
stuff that basically saidlocals will only pay this price and
non locals will pay a bit more.
It certainly hasn't caughtfire and spread all around the country,
but there are little storieslike that.
And as there is some growingkind of unrest in certain corners
of the country about theamount of foreigners coming in on
a yearly basis and the numbersincreasing each year, then stories
(10:13):
like that will be in the news.
But I don't.
I don't expect that to beimplemented on a.
On a broad scale anytime soon.
Interesting.
All right, we'll go back tosaving money.
So you save money by gettingthe bullet train pass or the train
pass, which covers a lot ofdifferent trains.
You also need to save money onaccommodations, but there are hotels
(10:37):
or hotel types that don't exist.
Other places like capsulehotels, do you recommend those for
visitors and can you give adefinition of what those are, or
is that really just forJapanese businessmen?
Well, that's how they started.
They were kind of advertisedas these.
(10:57):
Yeah, kind of stopover placesfor Japanese businessmen.
Like if you go to some of theold ones, they still have, like corded
telephones and you know, stuffthat a businessman might need, you
know, when he's overnighting.
They're still used by youngertourists, I would say.
I don't mind them on occasionas like maybe to like show someone.
(11:17):
Like I see it as more of anovelty thing.
Like I, personally, I wouldn'tbook one myself typically if I was
going somewhere.
But it's worth seeing.
I mean we should define whatthese are before we go further.
Can, can you give a, a description?
Yeah, I mean, I guess the bestvisual aid I can give is like, you
know, imagine like a morguewas a hotel.
(11:37):
It's got these kind of likelines rather than pull out drawers.
They're just sort of likelittle kind of cubby holes that you
enter into and you have theentire space is, is just a bed with
maybe like a side shelf.
No, you can't stand up.
Maybe there's like a sideshelf and there'll be a charging
station or whatever.
(11:59):
And down the hall somewherewill be the locker area where you
can put your bag and all thatkind of stuff.
So is there, is it curtainedoff or is there more of a solid door
to your cubby?
It depends.
A lot of them would have kindof like, you know, pull down blinds
which you sort of hook at the bottom.
I mean they are quite.
(12:19):
They're private in a sense.
It's sort of like a hostelroom, but a bit more private.
That also means it has theattended noise that you get in a
hostel room but times byperhaps, you know, a factor of 10
because maybe there's 40people sleeping in the area.
So you hear every, you know,snore and fart and burp and you know,
(12:39):
rustling pillow and all therest of it.
But yeah, I mean, I guess it'skind of like an interesting thing
to maybe stay in.
They're cheap, like certainlycheaper than most other accommodation
options.
If you've got one night in aplace like I think, you know and
you want to check it out, whynot give it a go, right?
You know, what's the worstthat could happen kind of thing.
If you are claustrophobic oryou really like, you know, home comforts
(13:02):
and things like that, maybegive them a miss.
Another thing actually is alot of them have like, they're basically
designed for one night staysso that if you're between the usual
checkout and check in time,you would have to take all of your
stuff out of it and back in again.
Oh wow.
Which is super inconvenient.
That kind of defeats thepurpose of staying in a hotel to
begin with.
Right, right.
So, yeah, yeah.
(13:22):
I mean, I. I see them more as,like, kind of, you know, curiosities
than something I'd like tostay in with any regularity.
But, you know, to each their own.
Yeah.
One of the things thatsurprisingly, isn't expensive in
Japan, I found when I've beenthere, I've been there a couple of
times, is food.
You can get very decent foodin convenience stores.
(13:44):
You can get a wonderful mealfor less than the equivalent of $10
at a noodle place.
That, to me, is not one of themajor expenses.
Were you going to give anothertip for saving money?
Did I cut you off with thecapsule hotels?
No, I mean, I guess just tofinish off on the accommodation point.
(14:04):
It's like a very sort of brief point.
But there are some really nicechain hotels you can stay in.
Like, one of the most famousones is Apa or Apa, another one called
My Stays.
And they're like just basic,you know, chain hotels, but done
well.
You know, I would say they're.
They're pretty comfortable.
The amenities are quite good,and it's often a good way to cut
costs rather than staying inmaybe a nice kind of boutique accommodation
(14:27):
or something that's a bitfancier in one of the more popular
areas.
But, yeah, on.
On food.
Yeah, I mean, I completely agree.
I think Japanese food is, forme, it's.
It's probably the greatestfood culture on earth.
There are certainly a couplethat could give it a run for its
money.
And I'm probably biased giventhe amount of time I've spent there.
But part of what impressed meabout it is the, you know, when I
(14:48):
moved there, I thought it waslike sushi and ramen.
I didn't really know that waskind of like the extent of my Japanese
culinary knowledge.
But there's amazing depth and complexity.
And like, every region willhave a mei butsu, which is sort of
like a regional specialty.
Usually it's some kind of food.
It might just be like noodlesmade a certain way or a certain type
of, you know, pounded ricecake, or maybe it's like a certain
(15:12):
fish or, you know, beef thatthey do a certain way.
Often they'll have multiple,you know, specialities.
So that aspect of it, really,of it is really cool, as is the fact
that you can get good food atevery price range.
So like you said, you can goto, you know, some of the best ramen
shops you'll ever eat in inyour life, and you're paying 10 bucks,
maybe current exchangeprobably less for a bowl of ramen.
(15:34):
That's a big, hearty plate offood, you know, that's been simmering
for 14 hours or something like that.
You know, it's like, it'sincredible really, what you can get
for very little money.
Then, of course, you've gotthe super expensive sushi restaurants,
you've got, you know, all thatkind of stuff.
Yeah.
And in Tokyo alone, you know,there's like 300 plus Michelin stars
across however many restaurants.
(15:54):
Might even be more than that.
Might even be 500 across 300 restaurants.
I can't remember exactly, butit's a lot.
It's the most in the world anyway.
So you've got a lot of stuffat that end of the spectrum.
And like you mentioned, eventhe convenience store foods, like
in, in the UK and from myexperience in America, you know,
if you went to 711 orsomething like that, if they have
a hot, hot food counter, thefood's usually pretty bad.
(16:15):
Oh, terrible.
Being charitable.
Yeah, yeah.
Get you sick bad.
Yeah, yeah.
Whereas in Japan, that food isobviously, it's very cheap, you know,
because of the, the type offood that is.
But like the hot chicken,actually really good.
Yeah.
The sandwiches are nice.
They might be filled with msg,but, you know, you're never going
to get the healthiest food ina, in a convenience store to begin
(16:36):
with.
But, Right.
Like they're famous to thepoint that there's loads of YouTube
vlogs and stuff that cover thekind of subculture of Japanese convenience
store food.
So if you're interested, it'sworth going to check some of them
out.
You know, it's like they dofruit sandwiches and all these, you
know, strange flavors of KitKats and things like that.
And yeah, like.
(16:57):
And they're all open 24 7, soa great place to stop late at night,
you know, if you need a.
Need a bite to eat before yougo to bed or whatever.
Now, in terms of regionalspecialties, going back to that briefly,
is there a region you thinkthat has the best food in Japan or
the most interesting?
Wow.
Yeah, that's a good question.
I mean, the boring answer isprobably Tokyo.
(17:17):
Just because it's got, Ithink, the greatest, it's got the
most innovation in food.
Like, Japan is quitesteadfastly against change when it
comes to cultural traditions.
Whereas if you look at likethe ramen space in Tokyo, there's
lots of really innovativethings going on.
Lots of the kind of bestmodern fine dining restaurants there
are not these sort of superserious, you know, have no fun, eat
(17:40):
the food, buy say thank youand then get the hell out of here
type places which used to belike the entire kind of upper end
of the, the dining market in Japan.
In Tokyo there's a lot morekind of like very homely places that
are still serving food that'slike 1, 2 Michelin star quality,
you know.
So that's the kind of boringanswer I'm trying to think of, you
know, something that's maybe abit more interesting.
Oh, Kyotango is a cool area.
(18:03):
It's, it's part of Kyotoprefecture, but if you go to the
kind of the coastal area, soI'm just called Kyoto by the sea
actually.
And they produce a lot offoods there with koji, which is the
fungal mold that, that's usedin like sake production and stuff.
And it has I think more than100 enzymes that facilitate digestion.
(18:25):
So there's lots of reallygood, like miso, soy sauce, rice
wine vinegar.
They produce a lot of thatstuff there.
And then obviously they serveit with the different rice noodle,
you know, dishes, etc.
Fish that they make in the region.
But that fungal mokouji issupposedly really beneficial to longevity.
So Okinawa is usually the mostfamous place for centenarians or
(18:48):
people that live beyond 100 in Japan.
But there was a study in 2019,albeit I think with a smaller sample
size, that found that in KilTango they have almost three times
as many centenarians as thenational average.
And the oldest guy that everlived actually lived there as well.
He was 116 when he died.
Born.
Oh my goodness.
(19:08):
Yeah, he lived through three centuries.
Yeah, born in 1897, died in 2013.
Kind of amazing, right?
Yeah.
So yeah, a lot of the locals,if you speak to like, you know, local
producers and stuff downthere, like food producers, they'll
always credit koji as like thekind of the, I don't know, the, the
elixir of, you know, long lifeor whatever.
(19:29):
Right.
And just as an aside, ifanyone wants to visit that region,
there's a woman called JunkoHamilton who's Japanese, grew up
in the Kyoto area, but shelived in Ireland for 10 years and
she runs cooking classes andcan kind of explain all this stuff
to you and fluent English andyeah, you'll get to cook foods with
koji and try different kojimade products.
(19:50):
The restaurant called Table.
Table.
Table is the name of therestaurant, but I think it's T A
B L E T A B E L or that's theother way around.
I can't remember, but it's inthe book.
If you buy, if you buy thebook, you'll find it.
Get the book.
Get the book.
That's what we're here to say.
Now, you were talking a Momentago about YouTube, YouTubers doing
(20:11):
convenience store food videos,which brings us to the pop culture
side of Japan.
You have a beautiful phrase inthe book.
You say it's their soft powerbasically that the whole world has
been taken over by anime andmanga and other Japanese incredibly
creative ways of seeing the world.
(20:33):
It used to be that people wentto Japan strictly to visit temples
and have kaiseki meals andindulge in traditional Japanese culture.
But now a lot of people gothere to see what's happening on
the cutting edge, what'shappening in youth culture, what's
happening in these newartistic expressions.
So if people are interested inthat side of Japan, where do they
(20:57):
go?
What do they do?
Yeah, it's an interestingtrend, isn't it?
I mean, I'm kind of of thatgeneration, you know, I'm 31, so
I'm that generation that grewup playing Pokemon, you know, getting
Pokemon cards in Yu Gi.
Oh, all that kind of stuff.
So I was certainly influencedthat by that stuff myself.
So I get, I do get the, theincentive to travel to Japan to kind
(21:19):
of see that side of it.
Like a lot of things, Tokyo issort of the beating heart of that,
particularly an area calledAkihabara, which to anyone who has
done any research about likepop culture Japan will have come
across that place.
It's, it's the Mecca, youknow, and it's just a cool area in
general.
You know, it's like a bigthoroughfare, just neon lights, you
know, on either side andfilled with arcades and retro, retro
(21:42):
game stores, all that kind of stuff.
Another area of Tokyo that'squite famous, particularly for women
is called Otome Road, whichliterally means maiden Road.
And it's in Ikebukuro, whichis sort of north west ish of the
city.
And it's particularly famousfor doujinshi, which are like basically
fanzines.
(22:04):
So the sort of thing that ifit was, if it was in America or the
uk, it would, these thingswould fall out of every copyright
law of the legislature.
Like they're, they're, they'recompletely illegal.
But loads of doujinshi artistsare really talented, so the industry
just kind of lets it pass.
And then sometimes they co opt those.
(22:25):
Before we go further, fan zines.
So these are magazines made byfans in the style of more Famous
artists.
Is that the way to put it?
Yeah, I think so.
I guess the.
Yeah, I guess that's how Iwould put it.
Yeah.
And often you might get, forexample, a character from one famous
series and a character foranother famous series, and the fanzine
(22:48):
will be those two charactersin some kind of romantic relationship
or whatever.
I see.
So this is the area wherethey're produced.
But why would a visitor go there?
Would they experience any ofthis culture there?
So this is the area where the.
Yeah, the shops are that sell those.
Oh, I see.
I see.
Yeah.
So it's famous for.
(23:08):
For that, actually, and alsofor cosplay.
So, you know, lots of womenespecially, again, would go and buy
costumes of their favoriteanime and manga heroines.
And then in that same area inIkebukuro, there's a Halloween cosplay
festival.
So if you're there that timeof year and you're into cosplay,
that's the place to go to bothget your.
Get your gear on to flaunt iton the street, I guess.
(23:31):
Wow.
So thousands of people incrazy costumes all over the place.
Yeah, so, yeah.
Yeah, it is.
You know, it's like there'sobviously huge songs.
I mean, even the word cosplay,like, we kind of think of it as like
an English word, but it wasactually a Japanese portmanteau of
(23:51):
two English words, likekosuple, you know.
Yeah.
Which I already discoveredthat not that long ago.
And I was.
What does cost mean, though?
I'm not sure.
They've taken the Englishwords costume and play and just squeeze
them together into their own words.
Yeah.
Oh, wow.
I didn't know that.
I just thought it meant, like,duo play, like co play.
(24:12):
But no, it's costume play.
Oh, yeah.
That's an interesting way tothink of it etymologically, actually.
Yeah.
I guess I hadn't.
I just hadn't questioned it.
It's like, you know, when youhear and see a word enough, you just.
It just is that word.
It was only probably about ayear or so ago myself that I realized
it was of Japanese origin.
Japanese English origin, ifthat makes sense.
Yeah, Very interesting.
(24:34):
And I have a dear friend, MikeFoster, who is a professor of Japanese
mythology, and he's written awhole bunch of books on the fact
that we are seeing mythologybeing created in real time in Japan.
You know, we think ofmythology as being something that
maybe was part of religioneons ago and is something in the
(24:57):
past.
And in Japan, he feels thatwhat's going on with this very intense
Culture around what we'd callcartoons is actually a rejiggering
of the mythologicalhierarchies of the Japanese mind.
(25:18):
Yeah, that's.
Yeah, that's interesting.
I mean, a lot of these places,you know, in the same vein, they
do feel like temples toJapanese pop culture to different
series.
I mean, a good exampleactually to throw in another one
is Kyoto.
Just outside Kyoto, theyrecently opened the Nintendo Museum.
It's just the first sort ofmuseum of its kind.
And it really does feel like a.
(25:40):
Almost like a religious, youknow, ode to this very storied Japanese
video game maker, console, developer.
And it's a really coolexperience that getting a ticket
for it is a nightmare.
You've got to go through thissort of convoluted lottery system
and then call a Japanesenumber and then you get your ticket
(26:01):
sent by QR code.
Oh my goodness.
A couple days before.
Yeah, it's, it's a pain.
But the, the one advantage ofthat is that they have very controlled
numbers that can be in themuseum at any one time, which obviously
benefits the user experience.
And also in the, the main topfloor, which is kind of all the archives
of all the old games andperipherals and box arts and destruction
(26:24):
manuals, all that kind of stuff.
You can't take any photos inthere, which I think is great because
otherwise it would just beselfie sticks everywhere and influencers
blocking all of the displaysand all that kind of stuff.
That's not to be sportsinfluencers, but, you know.
Yeah, I've experienced thatenough times in places like that
that I think that's what wouldhave, that's what would have happened.
So before you go on from that,so it sounds like a really difficult
(26:46):
process.
Is it all in Japanese or can Americans.
Can non Japanese speakers goto this museum?
Yeah, yeah, it's an, it's an English.
Like, I think it's kind ofcreated as the experience for the
wider J tourism market, Iwould say as a lot of modern museums
and things are built with thatin mind.
(27:09):
So, yeah, very, veryapproachable for English speakers.
And as is the, the ticketingsystem is all in English as well.
It's, it's convoluted morefrom like a design perspective rather
than a language perspective.
If, I mean for anyonelistening who's got any affiliation
for Nintendo, I do recommendgoing because it's a, it's a cool
experience.
Cool.
Okay, now at the verybeginning of our talk, you brought
(27:33):
up the fact that Japan isgetting over touristed, that there
are certain areas that arejust too Damn crowded to be as enjoyable
as they used to be.
And I know you took it veryseriously, wanting as a guidebook
writer, to show that otherparts of the country that people
don't think of going to are asintriguing, as rewarding to go to.
(27:59):
So let's talk about some ofthe places that people don't think
of going to, but really should.
Sure, yeah.
I think you've got to strikethat balance, don't you?
You know, if lots of people,especially if they're going to Japan
for the first time, they'regoing to want to go to Tokyo, Kyoto,
probably Osaka, maybeHiroshima, maybe Hakone, something
like that.
So you've absolutely got tocater to that.
(28:20):
But I think also there's someresponsibility to kind of show people
that Japan is actually a muchbigger country than that golden route
as it's known.
And furthermore, lots of theplaces, especially smaller places
in Japan, are suffering fromdepopulation and economic malaise
and all that kind of stuff.
So if you go and visit some ofthe smaller towns around the country,
(28:43):
every dollar yen you spendthere actually has a bit of an impact.
So from an ethical standpointas well, I think it's good to try
and vary things a little bitwhen you travel, but, I mean, it's
up to the traveler in question.
My job is not to tell anybodywhat to do.
Sure.
From an ethical standpoint.
And would it also be fair tosay, from a welcoming standpoint,
(29:03):
are they excited to seetourists in a way that maybe folks
in Kyoto and Tokyo won't be?
Yeah, for sure.
Just to take an example, fromNiyodo in the center of Kochi Prefecture
on Shikoku island, they kindof do need you.
You know, like every penny youspend there is, like, actually beneficial
to the town in a way that, youknow, tour buses coming into certain
(29:25):
places and just, you know,buying food from a convenience store
and drinks from a vending machine.
And the.
The money kind of doesn'treally go to any, like, independent
people living in certainareas, if that's kind of the method
by which you travel.
And to come back to that, thatplace in the Odo, just to give a
bit more.
Yeah.
Tell us about context as towhat it's like.
So it's right up in the.
The heart of the KochiPrefecture in the mountains.
(29:48):
It's this sort of thundering gorge.
And on this little precipicein the gorge, there's a guy called
Ken Mukai.
He's got a Japanese name, buthe's actually from California.
I'm not sure what his ancestryis, but he grew up as a.
Grew up in California.
He taught as a science teacherin the public school system there,
and then decided to move toone of the most rural places you
(30:10):
could find in Japan to brew beer.
So he's got this little tinymicrobrewery and tap room literally
perched right over this gorge.
And the water in the gorgeitself is called Neodo Blue, which
is.
It's kind of like known asthat because it's got this, like,
very clear, very clean water.
Like the artesian springs, Ithink, are, like, neutral.
(30:30):
So basically gives him acanvas to create any beer he wants
from it.
When I visited him, he wastelling me they have like a residence
magazine.
They get sent out.
And since he moved there,which was like 2020 or something,
not an auspicious time to moveanywhere and start a new business.
But since he's moved there,the number of residents per kilometer
(30:52):
squared has dropped by likefour, I think, from like 17 to 13,
something like that.
Because they get these figuresin the residence magazine I mentioned,
and he's named one of hisbeers 18, the number 18 because he's
trying to get the populationper square kilometer back up to that
number.
So, yeah, going somewhere likethat, you know, visiting these places,
(31:12):
speaking to these people.
There's an end just across thebridge, which is at a former elementary
school run by the former students.
And you kind of get a sensethat, like, oh, yeah, me being a
tourist here is actuallyhaving a positive impact rather than
a negative one.
Sure, yeah.
Or just kind of a scourge.
You go there through the brewery.
You go there to see theincredible, gorgeous.
(31:35):
But I mean, maybe I'm aselfish person.
I think that most people won'ttravel just to be good.
You know, it's their time off.
So why else do you go there?
What are the other attractions?
What do you see there and dothere that you won't find elsewhere?
Yeah, no, that's.
That's a good question.
A lot of people would sort ofraise their eyebrows at that, I guess.
(31:56):
I mean, first of all, it's astunning area to drive through.
So if you're able to rent a car.
Granted, not everyone is, butif you're able to rent a car, it's
really nice driving throughthat area.
There's lots of, like,canyoning activities, rafting, lots
of outdoor stuff.
You can hike around there.
There are onsen hot springs,so you can go and, you know, relax
(32:18):
in a.
In an outdoor hot spring.
So it's more of a.
An outdoors person's Kind of a destination.
But if that appeals to you, orif you feel like I'm traveling quite
a lot in the cities, Iwouldn't mind taking like 4 days
to just go and get completelyoff GR.
I recommend somewhere like that.
And as I said, that's just oneof the examples.
There are other slightlycloser to civilization examples of
(32:40):
places where your tourismdollars can have more of a positive
impact, I would say, on thelocal communities.
I know also, you know, theCamino de Santiago in Spain has become
very, very popular.
It's a walking pilgrimage, basically.
I've heard there's a temple totemple pilgrimage in Japan now that
a lot of people are doing.
(33:01):
Do you know about that?
Yeah.
Well, it's interesting youmentioned the, the Camino because
it actually has a sister trailin Japan of Wakayama, which is not
the one you're referring to,but I'll come to that in a second.
So the one in Wakayama is, Iguess the kind of brief version of
the story is that it's.
(33:21):
It tells the tale of Japan'sfirst emperor who got lost in these
mountains.
And then a three legged crowlands on a branch.
He follows the crow throughthese mountains and then attacks
his enemy with the rising sunat his back.
Wins and finds Japan,basically is what happens.
(33:42):
So his former routeessentially is charted by the sister
trail which is called theKumano Koro, which is in Wakayama,
quite close to Osaka.
That's actually like a coolone today, which is it doesn't require
too much travel away from kindof the main tourism route.
And the one you're referringto is the Shikoku pilgrimage, which.
(34:03):
But before we leave this one,you mentioned the rising sun.
Was this the inspiration forthe flag?
Yeah, yeah, basically.
So the rising sun is a sungoddess called Amaterasu, who's one
of the main deities in Shintomythology, Shinto being the sort
(34:25):
of predominant nationalreligion there.
Ah, okay.
All right.
Sorry.
Sorry to interrupt you.
No, no, you were talking aboutthe other route.
Yeah, the Shikoku pilgrimage.
So that basically follows the idea.
It's kind of a loose idea, butthe idea is that Shikoku island is
a mandala.
So like a Buddhist diagram ofeternal spiritual truths or something
(34:48):
like that.
And there's 88 temples thatkind of go around the island sort
of in a circle, a little bitinto the middle and then back, back
out around to where they started.
And they're in honor of a monkknown as Kukai or Kobo Daishi.
And he didn't actuallyestablish or build all of those temples.
(35:09):
I think he maybe establishedsome of them, and then this route
sort of formed an honor to him.
So lots of people do that, notnecessarily because they have any
affiliation to.
I think it's Shingon Buddhism,which is quite an esoteric sect of
the religion, but just becauseit's kind of a cool thing to do,
you know, it's a good way to disconnect.
Takes about six to eightweeks, which, granted, is longer
(35:32):
than the average traveler isgoing to have in Japan.
Right.
But like the Camino, I guess,you know, you can come and do a week
here, two weeks there, youknow, split it up whatever way you
want.
Maybe you can just pick, like,oh, here's four temples that are
a decent enough distance awayfrom each other.
Why don't I just follow that route?
You know, there's no.
There is a prescribed routeyou can follow, but, you know, of
(35:54):
course you can do it whicheverway you please.
Like, there are lots ofdifferent access points in terms
of airports and ferry portsand train stations and things like
that.
So you're not.
You don't have to Start atTemple 1 or Temple 88, if that makes
sense.
And, like, the Camino, do youhave people from all over the world
doing this?
So it's a very social activity?
(36:16):
Yeah, very much so.
I've never actually walked itmyself, but I've.
The last time I was inShikoku, I made a point of driving
to as much of it as I could,as I could fit in.
And I. I would stop off atvarious temples and go and sort of
accost people and try and askthem questions about why they were
doing it.
And, yeah, you do.
You get people from all overthe place.
Like, you know, I met anAmerican guy who was.
(36:37):
He'd worked in, like, tech forquite a few years and just decided
that he wanted to kind ofdisconnect, I guess, from the world
for a little while.
So he was doing the full thing.
I budgeted about eight weeksfor it.
And he said, it's amazing, youknow, you.
You walk along the road and.
Because pilgrims often wearthe same clothes.
(36:57):
They wear conical straw hatsand these white kind of garments
and have a stick that peoplewill just stop and maybe give you
some money, like, just like acouple hundred yen to get a drink
at the next vending machine orsomething, or maybe they'll give
you some fresh produce fromtheir farm.
But he said that thegenerosity you see from strangers
(37:18):
when you're a pilgrim on thattrail is, yeah, kind of amazing.
So that's a cool aspect of it.
You know, Japanese people areknown for being generous and friendly,
and I think they.
They really respect.
On that island, they.
They respect the tradition ofthe Shikoku pilgrimage.
So they'll always help people out.
And there are inns, you know,and campsites and things.
(37:39):
You can stay out.
There are some rest stops.
I think you can stay in for free.
There are temples that willalso give free accommodation.
Interesting.
So it's a whole ecosystemcreated for the pilgrimage.
Yeah.
And it's still.
It's still not super popular,but it's, I think, becoming popular
enough that it's, I guess it'sbecoming more approachable for non
(38:01):
Japanese.
Right.
Tourists to do.
Interesting.
Well, as you can see, David isa wealth of information and he poured
it all into Fromer's Japan.
We are so thrilled with thejob you did, David.
Thank you so, so much fordoing this great book and also for
appearing on the FrommerTravel Show.
That was great.
(38:21):
Thank you very much.
And you know, I hope.
Well, I hope people buy it, ofcourse, but I hope if they do that
they find a lot of value in it.
You know, it's.
Writing a guidebook is.
Is difficult, but it's a laborof love, you know, in a lot of ways.
You know, you gotta enjoydoing it.
But I think it's turned outwell, so I hope people agree.
I know it has your editor,Holly, felt.
(38:43):
It's one of the best books wehave in our series.
Oh, that's great.
Many thanks to Holly as well.
Yeah.
All right, that's it fortoday's show.
I thank you so much for listening.
If you like the show, be sureto give us a nice 5 star rating.
To those who are traveling,may I wish you a hearty bon voyage.
(39:13):
Sour candy on the table.
Lazy afternoons in yoursweatpants Watching table.
Well, it feels so far away.
All the channels seem the same.
(39:34):
Trying to remember all thesongs we like to play.
Cause those lazy afternoonsdon't come so frequently these days
long And I cannot help butwonder Are you ever coming home?
(39:55):
I like you with your sourcandy in the boat house on the lake
oh, but I hate, I hate, Ihate, I hate, I hate, I hate the
way it tastes.
(40:18):
I can't get you off of my.
Mind.
Looking out the window wherewe spend so much of our time.
Cause I miss the way it bel.
But I guess you can't controlthose damn cards.
(40:39):
Babe, I know the both of usare happy when we're free.
But would it be so hard tofind your freedom here?
With me.
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