GTM 164: 28th at Stripe → Billions: Cristina Cordova’s GTM Playbook (Linear, Notion)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It really started with the people, one of those
things where I was just like, oh, these people are incredibly
bright, have so many interests.
I just want to be around thesepeople generally, regardless of
whether I work here.
Patrick was like oh, do youwant to come out flying on my
plane?
And I was just I am not gettinginto a small plane with a
person I barely know.
My first day I sit down andthey tell us that they've
actually chosen to go with witha different partner.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
Behind every breakout company that becomes an iconic
and legendary company, there'ssomeone quietly building the
go-to-market engine.
Behind the scenes, christinaCordova has a rare superpower
she joins companies before theworld knows their names and
helps turn them into icons.
She arrived at Stripe when theteam was under 30 people.

(01:04):
Why join a company when youdidn't know what an API was?
Christina built an engine thathelped Stripe scale, generating
billions in revenue.
On her very first day, shopifytold her they were walking away,
a deal she ultimately saved,turning into one of Stripe's
biggest early wins.
She did it again at Notion,transforming Viral Buzz into a
community-driven growth machine,now generating hundreds of

(01:24):
millions in revenue.
And today she's doing it athird time at Lanier, where AI
is reshaping how developer toolsreach customers.
In this episode, you'll learnhow Christina spots breakout
companies early and builds thego-to-market engine that turns
them into unicorns.
All right, let's get into it,christina, welcome to the
podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
Absolutely.
It is a pleasure.
I want to jump right in becauseyou know, behind every breakout
company that becomes an iconicand legendary company, there's
someone quietly building thego-to-market engine behind the
scenes.
And at Stripe you helped turnmore of an abstract developer
API into a movement that reallytransformed payments.

(02:05):
And at Notion, you took aproduct with high virility and
got it in the hands of thousandsof people and created an
enduring distribution engine.
So curious to get your thoughtsbecause again and again you've
been able to bring products intothe hands of users and your
fingerprints are really like onthe go-to-market strategies

(02:25):
behind a lot of products thatbecame enduring companies.
So I want to start from Stripe.
Now.
You joined Stripe and I'veheard you say you didn't even
know what an API was when youjoined actually.
So I'm curious when you joined,why join a company when you
didn't know what an API was?
Yeah, what potential did yousee in it that you knew would
become this great company?

Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yeah.
So I mean, for me it reallystarted with the people.
I happened to run into PatrickCollison at a barbecue that a
friend of mine was throwing witha bunch of founders, and so I
run into him.
He's like, oh yeah, I work atthis company called Stripe and
I'm like, okay, cool, Soundsgood Payments on the internet.

(03:06):
I'm like cool.
And it turns out that he wasliving in the house that was
next to the startup that I wasworking for at the time.
So, purely just because ofproximity, we ended up we're
like, oh, we should grab coffeeand get to know each other.
And so we did that.
And my decision to join Stripereally started with how
amazingly smart the peoplebehind Stripe were, certainly

(03:27):
starting with Patrick and thenJohn and lots of other people
that I met there over time, andit wasn't just like raw
intellect or intelligence, butit was also this diversity of
interests.
You know, I think Patrick was,oh, do you want to come out
flying on my plane?
And I was just I am not gettinginto a small plane with a
person I barely know.
And then I learned that heflies planes all the time and

(03:50):
obviously is very competent, andall those things where you're
like, oh, wow, this is such aninterest.
And then you meet other peopleand it's very similar.
So it's one of those thingswhere I was just oh, these
people are incredibly bright,have so many interests.
Like, I kind of just want to bearound these people generally,
regardless of whether I workhere, Right.

Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
And so nine months later I get a very serious email
that's we want you to join thecompany and interview like
really interview, not justputzing around, like having fun
conversations with people on theteam.
And I was okay Cause I was verycommitted to the startup I was
at at the time, and from there Istarted to get to know their
ultimate vision for the companyand what they wanted to achieve.

(04:28):
And they had a very grandvision of building financial
infrastructure for the internet.
And, of course, immediately,what exactly is that Sounds
really cool.
And we talked a lot about whotheir current customers were,
which were a lot of developersat startups who were
implementing payments on theirwebsites, in mobile apps, those
kinds of things.
And they were starting to thinkabout well, who else in the

(04:49):
world accepts payments on theinternet?
Right, there are a lot ofpeople who don't actually know
how to integrate with an API,who want to accept payments.
How are they going to be ableto do it right?
How do they do it today?
And then you realize there areall of these platforms.

Speaker 2 (05:17):
A quick word from a tool that we use.
Right, how do they do it today?
And then you realize there dataall in one place.
At GTM Fund we even have acompany watch the Slack channel,
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Their website is harmonicai.
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Speaker 1 (05:34):
That enable companies to get started without
necessarily having an engineeron board.
So Shopify for e-commerce orXero or QuickBooks for invoicing
you know these are ways thatyou get paid without necessarily
having to code and it's like,well, should we be integrated
with all of those tools so that,wherever you get paid whether
you're building a customintegration to your website or

(05:56):
you just want to send an invoiceand you know, get bank payment
that should all be Stripe, rightand well, we should go out and
talk to these companies and seeif they want to work with us in
some shape or form and what aretheir problems and how hard is
it to get set up with paymentson their platform, with whatever
solution exists today and othercompetitors.
And that, to me, was reallyexciting.

(06:17):
I had done a lot ofpartnerships work prior, so I
was okay, well, I've done mediapartnerships.
How hard could this be right?
And then, of course, as I wasinterviewing, I was like I
really should look at these APIdocs and learn how they work and
what's possible.
And, you know, try to get astechnical as I can be

(06:49):
no-transcript about myexperience at Stripe.
There were a lot of people whowere just, instead of me,
joining that meeting.
Why can't, why can't I teachyou how to do this?
You know, and join that meeting, and then I don't have to join
it anymore right Right.
And so that was just anotherbenefit of working with really
great people.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
That's incredible.
So I mean you nailed theinterview process.
Clearly they bring you on.
You're starting to understandand get more technical.
What was the actualgo-to-market motion or strategy
looking at the time when youjoined?

Speaker 1 (07:21):
Yeah, so when I joined, everything was pretty
self-serve.
So you as a developer would gointo the website, you'd
integrate with the API and then,whenever a payment would come
through, we'd take our cut.
Basically, and that's how wewould make money.
And we had maybe one or twosupport people on the team.
So if you had an API questionor something that you could
write into support and get aresponse.

(07:43):
Maybe about a month after Ijoined we hired a salesperson,
but you know they were notresponding to RFPs and you know,
going out and doing pitches, itwas more like someone writes in
and is like hey, I like Stripe,it's interesting, but I'm going
to need a discount.
What kind of discount could yougive me?
And so then you're trying tofigure out your pricing model

(08:04):
and what are your costs and howfar can you discount without
going underwater.
And it's actually a verycomplex business.
So it's not easy to understandwhat your costs are, in the same
way that maybe compute is nowor other things right, and so
from that perspective it waspretty difficult to think about

(08:25):
what are these models?
And you're making basicallyyour best guess and coming up
with the best model that you canto kind of understand your
costs.
And then I would say it wasn'tuntil maybe a year or so later
until we hired maybe what Iwould define as a real or closer
to real sales person.
You know with a real motion ofwhat does this look.

(08:46):
And I think we called everyonegrowth.
You were on the growth team,right?
And then we started hiring alot of, I would say, ex kind of
consultant profiles in a lot ofways to kind of build out this
team, so people who had neverreally done sales or account
management or some of theseother things before, or maybe
done it for one year or twoyears, and then they were
joining the company, they wereon that growth team and they

(09:09):
would do all of these differentfunctions, whatever was really
needed for the company at thetime.
And then I had carved out my ownarea in partnerships and so we
were starting to build a lot ofreally fantastic partnerships
with e-commerce, invoicing,booking platforms, basically
going down the list of what areall the top players in the space

(09:30):
.
How do we partner with each andevery one of them?
How do we give them a revenueshare to keep them incentivized
to continue working with us?
And as we grow, they grow andtrying to find the right
incentive structures there andthat business started to grow
very significantly rightincentive structures there and
that business started to growvery significantly and the

(09:51):
primary rate limiter on it doingwell was how many deals I could
do with partners.
So that was the period where Iwas like maybe it's time to hire
another person.
And I talked to my manager atthe time, who was our COO and
then eventually became our chiefbusiness officer, and he was
well, I think you've been doinga good job.
So you know I'm going to letyou hire this person and build
out a team and I think youdeserve that.
And you know, I started kind ofbuilding that team and we kind

(10:12):
of had the idea of people whoare out going getting new
partners and people who aremanaging existing partners and
we built that to a prettysignificant portion of Stripe's
overall revenue and a reallygreat business overall for a few
years.
And by that time we had afull-fledged sales team revenue
leaders, sales managers, allthose things as well.

(10:32):
And I think our head of revenuecame to me at one point and was
hey, christina, I'm head ofrevenue.
Maybe it's a little weird thatyour team is managing a lot of
what ultimately becomes revenuefor the business, because these
partners are referring all ofthese merchants to us, right,
and I was like that's fair.
And also these partnerships arebecoming very, I would say,

(10:55):
formulaic and you know, what wasreally unique and first of a
kind at the beginning is notanymore.
We have a playbook and a salesteam could probably run that
playbook and so we transitionedall of those partnerships into
the sales team and I think nowwe call it platform partnerships
within sales or something likethat at Stripe.

(11:15):
And then I started building outa number of product
partnerships and kind of shiftedthe team more in a product
direction, working very closelywith PMs, engineering those
kinds of things.
So yeah, that was a lot offoundational, I would say,
revenue generating distributionwork for the business.
That happened very early on.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yeah, no, that's incredible and you built out a
ton of potential revenue andrevenue that converted from
pipeline to revenue throughpartnerships initially, and I
know Shopify was one of thedeals that you helped bring in
and partner with.
I'm curious that's such a hugebrand, especially for a startup
to get on board as a customer.
What part of that kind ofpartnership deal might have

(11:57):
almost fallen apart or what wasthe hardest part about securing
Shopify?

Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah, so our initial deal with Shopify was closed
before I joined, actually, butit was a very lightweight
integration, I would say.
And then my first day mymanager was like hey, you should
come join this meeting becausethis is a partner you're going
to manage right.
And then I sit down and theytell us that they've actually
chosen to go with a differentpartner.

(12:22):
Oh, no day one On day one yeah,that wasn't Stripe because they
wanted to own more of the stackeffectively, and we had this
kind of like very lightweightsolution and they wanted to own
more of the experience becausethey thought that would be
better ultimately for theircustomer.
And so I was like, well, thisisn't the best you know first
day for me, but hopefully we canfigure this out.

(12:45):
And then it was a critical timein the company.
We were maybe, you know, wewere less than 30 people and we
had to decide okay, do we try tosave this right?
Is this salvageable?
First, and then what would itrequire us to build in order to
save it?
And that would basically be awhole new set of APIs that would
enable them to control more ofthe experience and then offer

(13:05):
that to their customers.
And then, you know, what wouldthe business model look like,
what would the structure be, anddo we think that we want to not
build all these other thingsthat we had planned to build and
do this instead, and thatprobably that was probably a
third of the engineering team orsomething like that in terms of
what it would require.
And so it was prettysignificant for us and we

(13:28):
ultimately made the decisionthat they were an important
enough partner that we should goand do that.
But it's easy to look back andsay, yes, that was, of course,
the obvious, right decision todo that and eventually win them
back over and have themterminate this relationship.
That never went anywhere withthe other partner, but at the
time, shopify was maybe I wantto say 40 people or something 50

(13:51):
people and we were 30 people.
It wasn't like we werepartnering with some huge
organization with this hugeopportunity.
So it wasn't as obvious at thetime that you should throw off
your whole roadmap basically foranother startup, and I think
the you know in hindsight, thechoice was made primarily
because we believed in Shopify'svision for the world and what

(14:15):
they were trying to do, and wefelt that ultimately, they're
asking for this because they'resuper innovative and they want
to build the best product.
But maybe other companies inthe world are also going to want
the same thing eventually, andmaybe they're just on the
bleeding edge of this, andeventually other people will
want access to this too.
So this won't be just a custom,one-off thing that we're doing

(14:37):
for Shopify, but also somethingthat we're doing for other
partners as well, and that wasreally, I think the key part of
it and then also understandingthat they were growing fast and
we were also growing fast.
But I think a lot of times youlook at partnerships and you're
like we should go after thispartner that's huge and could
bring a lot to our business.

(14:57):
But often that kind of partneris going to want to push you
around and want to have a dealwhere you know they have the
best possible outcome and you'rekind of like riding along and
in a lot of ways, partneringwith smaller companies can be
far easier and I think I've alsotaken that approach at Linear.
We've worked with a lot of whatI would define as like other

(15:19):
fast moving startups and that'sbeen really fantastic for us.
But you know, I think inanother world would it make
sense to partner with a reallybig company?
I think you have to make surethat the incentives are really
there and that it makes sense.
But I definitely think that wasa key and critical partnership
that transformed the business,not just because we won Shopify

(15:41):
and continued to keep it, butalso what it did for a lot of
other partners eventually downthe road.

Speaker 2 (15:47):
Very cool.
It sounds like just taking afirst principles approach to
partnerships, where you're notnecessarily looking at the brand
size but really looking at thevision, the alignment, the
mission at the core and thenchoosing your partners based on
that.
Yes, Cool, yes, exactly.
And shifting to Notion, whichyou later joined.
Notion was blowing up when youjoined what was kind of the key

(16:10):
growth unlock for thedistribution engine at Notion.

Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yeah, I mean I think the team at Notion had done a
lot of really fantastic workearly on to build a really
strong community around theproduct, and I hadn't really
seen a community-driven growthstrategy in previous companies.
A lot of people like Stripe andwould say great things about it
and love the product and thatkind of stuff, but they didn't

(16:35):
necessarily have skin in thegame in the same way that
Notion's community did.
So, very early on, the productwas available for consumers to
use and also for businesses, andso one of the, I think, key
decisions for the company wasare we a consumer business?
Are we a B2B company?
What are we?

(16:55):
And ultimately deciding that weshould make the consumer
business free which was adecision we made while I was
there so that more people got toexperience what Notion was and
then a lot of the people whocould experience it as an
individual you know you'replanning your wedding in Notion
or doing so many other thingsthat you then start to say, oh,

(17:17):
could I use this at work?
Or what are the great use casesthat you know might exist in my
professional life, beyond mypersonal life?
So you had a lot of like what Iwould call it, maybe like
really indie professional peoplewho were consultants or you
know, in the arts or creative.
You know world that startedusing Notion as their portfolio

(17:40):
and also how they would do allof their project management for
their individual work.
You know, things like that thatI think, were really critical to
build a lot of fanfare.
And then we hired people earlyon who invested deeply in
building a community.
So let's get these peopletogether, virtually or in person

(18:01):
.
Let's send them swag virtuallyor in person, let's send them
swag.
Let's create this ambassadorprogram so that people who want
to do Notion meetups or thingslike that can actually do that.
Let's give them early betaaccess to a lot of our features
so that they feel they're on theinside and get access to things
earlier than others.
And also it's a great way toget product feedback, yeah.

(18:24):
So all those things I would saywere key components of building
a community around the product,and a lot of those people ended
up building careers aroundNotion.
So they created like Notiontemplates and then would sell
them, yes, and have a greatbusiness.
A lot of them became Notionconsultants, so working with

(18:44):
companies on how to set up theirNotion workspaces, things like
that, and making a lot of moneydoing that.
So the community started tobecome very financially
incentivized to see Notionsucceed and creating YouTube
videos, doing a lot of otherthings that we didn't pay them
to do those things, but theywould make money in other ways

(19:06):
off of that and it was, at thesame time, very beneficial to us
because we didn't have tocreate all of this educational
content and stuff like that.
They get to it and I think thatwas like a model that I had
never really seen before, and Igive a lot of credit to Camille
and a lot of early people on ourteam who invested deeply in
that kind of strategy.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
Super cool and you guys were, I mean, one of the
first really creating thatcommunity-driven strategy at
such a depth.
I think that's a hugedifferentiator.
Now you see it way morecommonly, especially for PLG
companies.
You were really trailblazingthat model?

Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah, totally.
I think Figma was anothercompany that did it very
similarly.

Speaker 2 (19:48):
I think when you have an audience that's very
creative, that becomes a naturalpart of like kind of
evangelizing within thatcommunity in a way, and it's
cool to see little parts of yourplaybook at Notion now applied
to other companies, like eventhe animation designer that you
guys had behind.
You can see that Clay now hasan animation designer.
Oh yeah, Just someone who justso much delight.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
Like, yeah, who just does like Clay stuff all day and
you're just, this is wild, andI think a lot of it.
Maybe you think about it, asyou know this, like fun, quirky,
one-off job, but it's alsoabout brand right and how you
see the brand and how you chooseto invest in the brand, and I
think to me that's always been agreat sign of a business that

(20:31):
really cares about building forthe long term.
I think at Stripe we cared alot about the brand early on.
We're very responsive tocustomer feedback, things like
that, and we invested a lot indesign, which some people
interpreted as marketing, but Iactually think it was design,

(20:51):
design.

Speaker 2 (20:52):
Pure design?

Speaker 1 (20:52):
Yeah, true design and I think the founders cared a
lot about that, even though theyweren't necessarily designers.
They hired really fantasticdesigners and product-minded
people to work on the websiteand the brand and those kinds of
things.
And then Notion obviously tooka very different shape in hiring
an illustrator very early on,which was fantastic.
You know, at Linear our CEO isa designer, so it's really at

(21:17):
the core of what we do.
But our brand is also verydifferent.
We have a much moreprofessional brand and it's very
clean, very sleek, minimalcolor.
So it's just, in a lot of ways,very different.
But when you see something anddoes that feel linear or does it
not feel like linear?
And to me that's like having abrand.

(21:39):
You have a direction wherepeople can go but also know
where they shouldn't go or wherethat's too far.
And investing in that early hasalways been very attractive to
me as an employee, because Iknow that these are founders who
want to invest in the long termand be patient about building
things that take time, and Ithink building a brand is part

(22:00):
of that.

Speaker 2 (22:01):
Absolutely.
There's a saying that I loveand I think about all the time
with companies that invest inbrand and it's people impute the
quality of your product fromthe quality of your design and
everything we do.
Now I always think about thatquote, irregardless if it's a
small tweak on the website or ifit's a brand guideline,
whatever it is.
Yes, yeah, so it sounds likewhat I kind of heard you say was

(22:30):
one of the things that you lookfor, whether intentionally or
not, but a good sign as afounder that really leans into
building brand, because it is along-term investment.
Are there other things that youlook for other than being
whisked away in a plane up top?

Speaker 1 (22:41):
and an airline, but overall curiosities.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
It sounds like investing in long-term durable
solutions.
Are there other things you lookfor in your team.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
So I would just say like talented in lots of ways
that I am not Ying and yang it'spart of it.
Yeah, exactly, it's like I wanta founding team to have a lot of
skills that they can bring tothe table, but the skills that I
can observe are not my skills,but I can still understand that.
It's exceptional.
There are people that you canobserve and you're just like oh
yeah, that's an engineer.

(23:19):
And then, when you've beenworking in this industry long
enough, you can tell thedifference, even if you're not
an engineer, between someonewho's good and someone who's
great, and sometimes that mightbe in domains that are outside
of what you would think, like anengineer interacting with a
customer and trying tounderstand their technical
feedback and how to fix it.

(23:41):
That's an interaction that youcan observe as someone who's not
necessarily technical tounderstand if they're truly
great at what they do.
So there's a lot that I thinkabout when I think about
founders, where, okay, if you'rea designer, I want you to be
one of the best designers in theworld.
If you're an engineer, I wantyou to be one of the best

(24:02):
engineers in the world, and Ithink it's important that, as
founders, you are bringing thebest of the best to the table,
because it also helps yourecruit so many other really
fantastic people too, becauseyou know what to look for as
someone who's great in whateverdomain that might be, and then,
at the same time, I think in alot of ways you are looking for

(24:25):
exceptional people even in otherdomains that you are not
familiar with.
So, you know, as an early stagecompany, you do a lot of first
of hiring.
You're hiring your first peopleops person and your first
recruiter and your firstsalesperson.
And as a technical founder, youmay not know a lot about those
domains or understand what's thedifference between good and

(24:48):
great, but I tend to find thatif you are exceptional at
something yourself, you arebetter at kind of trying to spot
that exceptionalism in otherpeople.
So that's definitely a keycomponent of it.
And then I would say, from abusiness standpoint as a whole,
I've generally joined companiesthat are post having some kind

(25:09):
of product in the market.
Yeah.
So I try to look for a lot ofsigns that that product is doing
well in the market.
It doesn't have to be doingamazingly well, right.
And also, your interpretationof that on the outside is
limited, given the data that youhave.
But I love products that peoplelove so much that they want to
talk about them somewhere on theoutside is limited, given the
data that you have.
But I love products that peoplelove so much that they want to

(25:31):
talk about them somewhere on theinternet, right.
So with Stripe, it was likepeople talking about Stripe on
Hacker News and I would searchfor people posting about it.
And what are people saying?
Right, because I'm also, I wasnot a customer of Stripe.
I don't know.
Is this really a great product,right?
So I would go talk to peoplethat I knew who were early stage

(25:52):
startup people and I would saywhat are you using for payments?
Oh, you're using Stripe.
Why did you choose that?
Do you like it?
You know, like those kinds ofthings to try and understand why
they made certain decisions.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:05):
And then for Notion.
A lot of my perspective was onTwitter, Like what are people
saying about this product?
Right, Do they?

Speaker 2 (26:11):
like it.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
Do they love it?
Is it controversial?
You know why?
Linear was very similar, likewhere can I find this product's
audience?
And then what is the audiencesaying about the product?
Yeah, and I think that can bevery helpful to understand.
Is this a beloved product, evenif the audience is small?

(26:32):
Right, and that matters a lot tome because you know, for the
most part, you know I've managedliterally every type of
function Engineering, productmanagement, business, revenue,
all these things but generallyI'm not hands-on building the
product.
Generally I'm not hands-onbuilding the product.
And so I would love to see thatthere's evidence that the
people who are hands-on buildingthe product are listening to

(26:54):
customers, know what customerswant, and that whatever they
have built so far is resonatingwith those customers.
And then I think what you tendto see is that people who are
maybe detractors or don'tbelieve in the brand might just
be bigger companies, right, thatare, oh yeah, like Stripe,
that's for startups.
You know that's what peoplewould say in the early days when

(27:16):
they were like, yeah, that'sprobably not going anywhere.
And then you realize that, like, every company starts out with
some kind of wedge in the marketthat they're focused on and
then eventually, over time, ifthey're successful, they're able
to kind of grow that wedge andown a bigger share of the pie.
And for every company I've beenpart of that's done B2B, it's

(27:40):
been starting with startups andearly stage companies and then
going to grow stage companies inmid-market and then going to
enterprise.
So yes, the enterprise companiesreally early on are going to be
like oh you're small, no one'sgoing to use you, like that kind
of thing, and then you're justgoing to change that company's
mind and it might take you adecade, but you can do it right.

(28:00):
But you should be resonatingreally well within that wedge
that you have defined is workingreally well.
So those are the things I tryto like suss out.
It's really people and like isthe product resonating in the
market that you are reallyfocused on at this particular
moment in time?
But sometimes, obviously, whenyou're looking at a pre-product

(28:23):
company, it's really just theteam, yeah, and that's all
you've got right.
And so, figuring out what arethe data points that you do have
and do you find that thecompany is exceptional in one of
team market product areas?
And ideally it's all three andyou have a transformational
business in front of you.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
So super cool.
It's really interesting to hearyou actually articulate that,
because it mirrors exactly howwe evaluate startups, too, and
founders.
It really is.
You know, two of the core areasI heard you say was around the
person.
We think about that asspikiness.
Yep, you know, one of thefounders we invested in was the
largest creator of a Minecraftserver.
Oh wow, super niche and random,but he was so passionate about

(29:06):
this idea that he pursued it.
Same kind of thing of you knowwhat are people excellent at and
what are they pursuing.
And then, similarly, with thebeloved customers and just
people being being huge ravingfans of a product we look for,
you know people that wouldessentially be so unhappy if the
product was taken away fromthem.
We'd look at that over revenueany day or most, or most days, I

(29:28):
should say any day, but mostdays, you know, we'd rather have
10 happy design partners thatare paying a tiny tiny fraction
over, you know, $500,000 inrevenue with their more
disparate logos sometimes yeah,yeah, not kind of the same
principles.
I heard you say.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yeah, I like what you mentioned around the Minecraft
thing.
It's like me.
It's like I want to see someonewho's exceptional at something,
because then I know that, like,when they make this transition
to being a founder, they'regoing to want to be exceptional
at that too, right.
So, whether it's craft or, Idon't know, taekwondo or your
IMO gold or those are the moreclassic, closer to engineering

(30:05):
type things.
But I didn't know taekwondo wasso engineering focused closer to
engineering type things but Ididn't know Taekwondo was so
engineering focused Less so that, more the IMO gold focus.
But or those people who do likewhat is it like quiz bowl or
things like that?
Right, these like competition,math-y style things, probably
closer to engineering and thenmaybe good founder, like you
know, you'll see, but you wantpeople to be good at something.

(30:27):
That's what we're trying to do.
We're trying to build somethingexceptional.
So having someone who's beenexceptional at something,
whatever it might be, is also areally good sign.
Like you see, this even aboutsales leaders so many of them
are athletes, college levelathletes going straight into
sales and it's like, well, yeah,if you are someone who has

(30:49):
experience trying to get out in,like college athletics, you're
probably able to pick up thephone, make a lot of phone calls
, be relatively personable andclose some deals right, You're
used to rejection Right exactly.
So things like that, whereyou're just kind of like what's
the corollary for what thisperson has done historically and
does that translate to this newfield, whether it's being a

(31:10):
founder or being an operationalleader or what have you?
You know, I think theinteresting thing about startups
is that we're all doing thingsthat we have no business doing.
I've never been a COO until now, so you know you could argue
what business do I have doingthis job?
Right, I had never worked at astartup, you know, until I had

(31:34):
right.
So we're all doing these things, I think, for the first time.
And anyone who's building acompany is building a company in
that specific market for thespecific customer, you know, for
the very first time.
So we're all doing somethingthat we don't necessarily have
experience in, and it'simportant to think about A what
are the things that I do bringto the table that are going to
help me adjust to this problemand how to solve it?

(31:56):
And then are there examples thatexist elsewhere that I can
learn from, I think, thestraight founders.
One of the things they'rereally great at is just bringing
in this growth mindset toeverything that they're doing.
There were times when we weredoing company planning early on
and they were like, christina,could you maybe go off and have

(32:16):
some conversations with someother people at bigger companies
about how they do planning andthen bring those learnings back
to us?
Yeah, and so I went and I didthat and I talked to execs at
Amazon, at Meta, at Google,several places, and tried to
understand how they did planningand then what, if anything,
could translate to Stripe ofwell, google plans this way.

(32:37):
So we should plan this way too,because, you know, is that what
makes Google a great businesshow they do operational planning
.
I don't know, but it may not beright.

Speaker 2 (32:59):
Or it could be unique to them in a certain way.

Speaker 1 (33:01):
Right, yeah, and so like, is the fit there for your
business, like from this advicethat you're getting, and trying
to understand if it reallyapplies to you?
And then understanding is whatmakes this business great, like
this particular thing, oractually is it these other
things that they're really goodat and the operational planning
could be terrible and itwouldn't really matter, right?

Speaker 2 (33:23):
So, hey, one quick thing If you like what you're
hearing here, you should checkout the Product Market Fit Show
hosted by Pablo Cerugo ofMistral VC, where top founders
share exactly how they foundproduct market fit.
It's one of the best podcastsfor early stage founders, going
from zero to one.
Just search the Product MarketFit Show or check the show notes
.
Very cool.
And what about the operatorside?

(33:43):
Because you yourself you'vebeen I mean, one of the first
business hires for companiesmultiple times.
You assess founders in acertain framework, like we
talked about.
Does the same framework applyto operators when you hire?
Because I've heard you say bethe person that builds without
being asked to.

Speaker 1 (34:02):
Yeah, I mean, I think it depends about like
leadership specifically, so somekind of like operational leader
within a company.
I definitely think I've alwaysappreciated people who have a
more like entrepreneurialmindset, so founder mode
obviously being a thing, but Idon't think that solely applies
to founders.
I definitely think it appliesto people who are leading in

(34:26):
companies, and I think that'sbecause the mode that it
requires of you at a certainstage and size, which is like I
have never joined a companyoutside my first job straight
out of college with more than 40people, right, so I've always
been very attracted to companiesof a certain size and growing
with them over time.

(34:47):
Stripe was 3,000 people when Ileft, but I think, in a lot of
ways, starting with companiesthat are really small, you're
looking for people who can seeproblems and want to fix them,
or see an opportunity and wantto go out and get it, and I
think, for a lot of people,maybe in more traditional
environments, are waiting to betold what to do and are waiting

(35:10):
to be like.
Oh, what strategy is, like youknow, christina, going to give
me?
that tells me what I should dothis month and it's like no, no,
no, I'm hiring you because Ithink you can come up with a
strategy, right, and you know,the difference between a really
great leadership hire and a notso great leadership hire is
someone who's coming to you andsaying, hey, you know, christina

(35:33):
, I think we should changepricing at Linear, right, or I
think we should build out ourEMEA team, or I think we should
do this, and I'm like this is agreat idea.
Let's have a conversation aboutit, right, yeah, versus me
having to go to them andnecessarily say all of those
things.
Of course, there are going tobe things that I have ideas
about and that's why I was hired, right and bring that to the

(35:55):
table, but I do think I expectthat leaders that I hire are
going to not just think aboutwhat are the things that we
should be doing at certainstages or size of business,
because there are things thatare pretty normal, like okay, at
this stage, we should starthaving audited financials and we
should get a finance person,and we should you know, that's

(36:18):
very classic Not necessarilylike innovative or going to
transform the business, though,right, yeah, so if you're going
to spend time, you know, comingup with ideas.
I'd rather it be on the ladderrather than like on the stuff
that, yes, we're going to haveto do that at some point, and
reasonable Like, yes, we can dothat now.
Yeah, but coming and sayingwhat are the things that we're
going to do, that can markedlychange, you know, the trajectory

(36:40):
of what we're doing I think isreally important and hiring
people that you think can dothat.
But that's not true of allfunctions.
Some functions, like the job isto keep the lights on and keep
things moving and trains runningon time and things like that
right.
But I would say that for a lotof roles where you can make a
transformative impact for thebusiness, the job of leadership

(37:01):
is to really think through howthat business can transform and
then have the power to go andexecute against it.
Because ideas are great, we allhave lots of ideas but if you
can't execute and get it done,the ideas don't go anywhere.
And so for me, I've always beena much more execution-oriented

(37:22):
person.
I really like doing things, Ilike getting things done, I like
making progress, but that can'tcome at the cost of thinking
strategically and trying to donew things and being innovative.

Speaker 2 (37:35):
Yeah, that makes sense.
And I mean you mentioned youscaled from less than 40 people
to thousands of people andorganizations and you've seen
billion dollar go to market andyou've seen it built from
scratch.
What are you doing now atLanier that you're restarting
that build process?

Speaker 1 (37:53):
I think there are definitely lessons I've learned,
like at Stripe.
In the early days, I thinkthere was a lot of fear of
salespeople, like as if thesalesperson that we would hire
would be a person who's tryingto sell you something that you
don't need and all those kindsof things, and it was like you
can find salespeople who knowsales and can do it well without

(38:17):
coming across in thisparticular way and so realizing
that at early stage companiesthe vibes are important and if
the founders suss out that we'rehiring salespeople with the
wrong vibes, it's not going towork.

(38:42):
But knowing that I'd rather saveus a lot of time and instead of
hiring people who don'tnecessarily have sales
experience, hire people who areexperienced in sales but have
done a lot of technical sellingso selling to a buyer who is in
engineering, product and designbuyer who is in engineering,
product and design and we almostexclusively hire salespeople
with those backgrounds,specifically because I know that
they have to come across in acertain way to not be salesy
traditionally, and that hassaved us a lot of time that I

(39:05):
think was wasted at Stripe tokind of figure out you know, how
do we sell, what is thestrategy here, what is the
approach, and cut through someof that initial work and get
straight to what is the valuethat we're providing and how do
we talk about it and what is thesales narrative, and then

(39:25):
finding a team that understandshow to operate.
At Stripe we didn't haveindividual quotas until maybe I
left the company.
That's three people, yeah, yeah.
So I think by the time I leftwe had team quotas.
We were slowly getting therebecause it wasn't necessarily a
traditional sales team, right.

(39:46):
And when I joined Linear, wehad our head of sales and one
salesperson.
And when we hired that onesales team, right.
And when I joined Linear we hadour head of sales and one sales
person and when we hired thatone sales person he had a quota
from day one.
So just things like that whereI think having that structure
can be really helpful In otherbusinesses where you don't
understand your business model,you don't understand your
pricing and some of those thingswere true of Stripe.

(40:06):
At the time you're like, oh,maybe we shouldn't have a quota
because I don't want toincentivize the wrong behaviors
and end up screwing up thebusiness, right.
But I think when you have apretty firm sense of what your
costs are and we're in some ways, traditional SaaS right,
seat-based selling so it is alittle bit more structured and
easier to understand and easierto model.

(40:26):
So there are definitely lessonsI've taken away that have been
more of that shape.
But I would say my biggestlesson historically has been
knowing that at the end of theday, the judge on whether you're
doing a good job is do thefounders want to keep you around
, like as an executive leaderwho's hired by founders and

(40:50):
works for founders?
Yeah, and there have definitelybeen executives I've worked
with in my career where I'm justlike I just don't think this
person's doing a great job, andthen you realize that the reason
they're still there is becausethe founders love them, you know
, and so the founder willshuffle them around to different
parts of the org and differentparts of the company, even
though they're not doing a greatjob, because they're well-liked

(41:12):
by the founders, right, right,and so I hope that I'm doing
actually a good job, right?
Yeah, of course that's thenumber one goal, but in reality,
I think you have to realizethat a lot of these decisions
are relationship-oriented.
Who stays at a company, whogrows at a company, who gets the
opportunity to kind of see itthrough for a long period of
time and I think what I'velearned is just like you have to

(41:38):
build those relationships sothat you are on the same page
and that you're understanding ofwhat their priorities are, and
their priorities should be yourpriorities, and I think that's a
critical component of success.
when you think about being anexecutive leader who's hired by
founders like my, job is to maketheir lives easier yeah and
better, and I would hope that atany point they say I'm so

(42:01):
thankful we hired Christinabecause I don't have to do this
anymore, or because now this isgoing so much better or all of
these things.
I want that to be true, butit's not going to be true unless
I invest in the relationshipand I understand what they want.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
That makes sense.
And let's say you're droppedinto a company who is very early
stage, similar to how you builtLinear Notion Stripe how do you
assess the go-to-market?
What would be the first thingsthat you'd build out, just
objectively, irregardless of thenuances of the business, but
templates, frameworks, differentways of really building out the

(42:37):
go-to-market roadmap?

Speaker 1 (42:40):
I feel like I would probably start with just getting
in there and being veryhands-on.
Yeah, so are there sales calls?
I can join.
How do I get in front ofcustomers?
How do I observe what's goingon?
So really starting tounderstand those things I think
is helpful.
One of the first things I did atone company I joined was I did

(43:03):
a ride-along with our firstsalesperson and I was like I
wasn't in sales but I was like Ijust want to see the pitch and
understand what this is like andI can have an interpretation on
whether this is good or bad.
Right, yeah, and then we canfigure out how to kind of make
progress.
So I think a lot of it is justobservational, to kind of
understand things.
Like, when I came into Linearwe had a head of sales.

(43:25):
He was our one salesperson,yeah, so he was both trying to
build out the function and be anAE at the same time and we
talked a lot about how he wantedto build out the team and hire
more people but was feelingmaybe like in a similar way to
how Stripe was some resistanceto hiring salespeople from the
founders.

(43:45):
Very normal.
And so it's trying tounderstand.
How does everybody feel aboutthis, right?
So talking to founders andunderstanding how you think it's
going yeah Right, you may notactually know right, Because
you're maybe potentially farremoved from it, but what is
actually going on here and thenbeing in some of those meetings
and calls and understanding howthey're going yourself and then

(44:07):
trying to match what is theinterpretation that other people
have about this function?
And then what is yourinterpretation of the
performance at the ground levelwith customers?
And I really care about that,first and foremost because I
would never want anyone to havea bad experience.
And I think, as an executive,there are so many times when bad

(44:28):
experiences are escalated toyou.
Oh, there were so many timeswhen I was at other companies
where it would be like I hadthis terrible experience with
support Christina, can you helpme?
Or things like that.
And that's probably the mostfrustrating moment operationally
as a leader, when thoseescalations are coming to you
and you know that it is yourfault as the company are coming

(44:52):
to you and you know that it isyour fault as the company.
So I think trying to understandthat at ground level is like
the first thing that's important.
And then I think you have to doan exercise to understand we did
this at Stripe very early onbased on how the company is
going revenue margins, growthrate how do we think this
business is going to grow overthe next three months, six

(45:13):
months a year?
And then how many people are wegoing to need to have to
support this business?
Right, so just foundationally,like at stripe.
For example, we had all thesepeople writing into support.
We couldn't get back to themquickly enough and the business
was growing.
So we need to model out how bigof a hole are we going to be in
where we're not going to beable to get back to people, and

(45:35):
so how quickly do we need tohire in order to get out of that
hole?

Speaker 2 (45:38):
Right.

Speaker 1 (45:39):
So understanding that first.
And then I think, once you'reout of a hole which sometimes
you need to get yourself out ofthen it's about what are the
investments that we're makingright?
So Linear is a very self-servebusiness and that's how we
started.
But we started to get peoplewho are writing in to sales and
saying, can I have aconversation?
So then you know, nextobjective is to make sure you

(46:01):
get back to everyone who'swriting into you and that you
deliver a very strong salesexperience to anyone who's
coming inbound.
And then you're like well, whatis the opportunity of outbound
right?
What could we do to grow thebusiness faster if we are trying
new things and doing thingsdifferently?
And you know, outbound is notlike you know, ooh,
transformative, but like, if youhaven't done it before, yes, it

(46:24):
is new.
So what is that?
How much are we going to investin it?
And then, if we were to do allof the outbound in the world
that we think is beneficial tothe business and efficient, how
big would our team be and howmuch do we need to hire?
So those are the things I tendto think about.
It's like is the quality there,first and foremost, in the
experience?

(46:44):
Because if the quality is notthere, we can't build anything
until we fix it.
And then next, are we gettingback to people fast enough?
Are we filling current needs?
And then, what hiring do weneed to do to get there?
And then the last step is wheredo we want to invest and how
much do we?

Speaker 2 (47:01):
want to invest and how quickly.
And you mentioned outbound, ofcourse, and headcount and
understanding the scalingprocess.
You scaled multiple businessbefore AI was so deeply embedded
in the go-to-market motion.
I'm curious what has changednow with AI building at Lanier.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
Yeah, I would say the biggest change with AI has been
primarily in helping determinewhat opportunities we go after
in helping determine whatopportunities we go after.
It has not changed fundamentally.
The sales experience, like theexperience you have as a
customer, Like you still want totalk to a human being, that
human being is going to have tointerpret your needs based on

(47:41):
what you say.
You know all of those thingsare as they were five years ago,
10 years ago.
But you know, because we'resuch a heavy self-serve business
, we have a lot of signups andyou have to figure out where's
the needle in the haystack,Where's the big opportunity that
we should be paying attentionto.
And it's not just oh, I'm goingto send an email out to that
inbound signup because, I don'tknow, it's like Netflix or

(48:03):
something you know, so obvious,right, but it's like well, is
this person from this very largecompany who signed up for our
product the right person to useour product, or are they like an
IC engineer in an org and weneed to find other people within
the org?
who also care about linear, orfind someone who's a few levels

(48:25):
up right, and that's going torequire investment and research
and a lot of tooling, and that,I think, is where AI has really
come in to say, okay, what arethe opportunities based on the
size of this company, the personwho signed up, whether they're
in our ICP?
All of these things should beautomated so that we're spending

(48:47):
our time crafting the rightmessaging to the right person
within an organization and thenreaching out to them in a format
that we think is going to yieldthe best outcome.
So I think that's the biggestarea where things have changed
for us, which has been reallycritical, because for our
business, it's not a lot ofpeople signing up to want to

(49:07):
talk to the sales team.

Speaker 2 (49:09):
Right.

Speaker 1 (49:09):
Because we're a very you know developer-heavy
business.
It's much more like how do youfind the right people?

Speaker 2 (49:18):
I used to test and experiment a lot with messaging
and that was a big learning.
Yeah, because consistently ifyou put a human as the outcome,
it was less likely to convert.
Human as the outcome, it wasless likely to convert.
So if somebody was like sales,call, talk to a salesperson less
likely of conversion as opposedto anything unrelated to a
human experience which is sointeresting.
People want to do their ownresearch more now than ever,

(49:40):
especially when you're lookingat certain archetypes that are a
little bit more hands-on andworking with the product
themselves, like developers.

Speaker 1 (49:47):
Yeah, like our sales team.
They don't even say on theirLinkedIn profiles I'm an account
executive.
They say I'm on the customerteam, you know, yeah.
And so it's very much like howcan I help you, how can I be of
service to you and yourorganization?
Again, we don't want to comeacross like we're trying to sell

(50:08):
you something you don't need.
Yeah, so it's like you, shouldyou have problems, like
presumably you're signing up forus for a reason right to
explore, there's a problem youwant to solve, etc.
And that's where theopportunity is.
And I think coming across assomeone who's going to sell you
something is going toimmediately land you in the spam

(50:28):
folder, right?
So sometimes even just a quickLinkedIn connection and then a
two-line message that's veryfriendly and open and not overly
salesy is the best strategy forcertain leaders that we're
trying to engage with.
So we found that to workparticularly well for our

(51:03):
audience in particular, and Ithink when Mm-hmm that they use.
So it's like I'm signing up forLinear, but I just don't.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
I don't know if I can make this happen.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
And it's like well, I can help you, right, I can help
you build a case.
Right, I can help you try tofind the people in your
organization to talk to aboutmaking this decision.
I can actually connect you withfive other people who've signed
up for Linear in the last monthfrom your organization and
maybe you can band together andwe can make this happen, right.
So coming across in that way, Ithink, is really important,

(51:35):
especially when you're sellingto an organization in a very
wide way, right, because we'rerolling out to every engineer,
pm, designer within an entireorganization, right.
So it's important that youbuild those advocates in a lot
of different ways, and you knowthere are a lot of different

(51:55):
people who can help you in thejourney.
There are people who we talk toon the sales side.
One of my indicators of is thesales team doing a good job is
how many screenshots are theygetting from their own customers
, like internal Slackconversations about linear,
where someone will be like oh,like, what about this?
And someone else will be likeno, we have to use Linear and

(52:15):
here's the reason why.
And then someone else willscreenshot that and send it to
one of our salespeople, likethat's a sign that you have
built trust with people and thatthey actually want to engage
with you and that you arehelping them.
So those are the signs for methat our motion is working well
and that people are trusting thesalespeople that we have on our

(52:38):
team and that it's not justthis transactional order form
RFP filling type of role.

Speaker 2 (52:46):
Yeah, I love the way you just boil it down into.
You have a pain.
I solve your pain Simple.
And where do you find yourgreatest inspiration?
I'm curious if there's anybooks that have shaped the way
that you think or lead over timeor other resources even.

Speaker 1 (53:02):
Good question, I really like a lot of podcasts
and interviews with certainpeople out there.
But in terms of resources, I'vefound myself kind of going back
to a couple times.
Claire Hughes-Johnson, who wasStripe's COO and now a corporate
advisor, wrote a book calledScaling People and it was a lot

(53:23):
about organizational growth likewhat are we doing to build the
company as we are also trying togrow the business, and she
wrote a really fantastic bookabout a lot of the things that
we did at Stripe, some of whichI saw firsthand.
So I know those lessons, but alot of them I didn't, and they
were behind the scenes or justthe thinking behind it, because,

(53:43):
also, what we did at Stripe ata thousand people doesn't
necessarily apply to linear at100 people.
So those are the kinds ofthings that I think I tend to go
back to and be like what wasthat chapter of that book?
Because I think I've hit thatpoint in our journey where
something here needs to change.
So just kind of understandingthe mental models I think were

(54:07):
really helpful.
And then my other thing that Itend to do really often but it's
not a resource but somethingthat I think anyone can do is
find other people who are inyour role or roles where you're
coming up to speed in them.
So, for example, when I joinedLinear, we had leaders in some
functions and didn't haveleaders in other functions, so I

(54:28):
was running those functionsdirectly.
One function I still rundirectly to this day is
marketing.
So I have several marketingleaders that I've just gotten to
know at other companies,knowing that right now I don't
think it's the right time for usto hire a leader, so maybe
these people will be our futureleaders.
You never know.
But at the same time there's alot that I can learn from them

(54:49):
as I'm coming up to speed, likewith my marketing leader hat on
in a way, and that's reallyimportant so that I can A lot of
those.
I've been running through thesepeople.
I did a call with Amanda Clayha, who was the chief commercial

(55:19):
officer at Figma, and at thetime Linear had not a lick of
swag like nothing, with our logoprinted on it and stuff like
that, and she was just like youdon't have swag you have to have
swag.
If you go to config figma'sannual conference, like the
biggest line in the entireconference is for swag.
Like people live for it, peopleare going to evangelize you and

(55:42):
wear these things and you knowlike it's going to go so much
further than you think.
And so it was one of my thingswhere I was like maybe I should
experiment with this and see ifI can get people to agree to try
this in a limited way, justbecause she felt so strongly
about it.
Yeah, yeah, we did.
What did you get?
So we, so my experiment was wewere coming up on Linear's sixth

(56:05):
anniversary of the company, sowe created what I call these
linear supply kits, which wasbasically a Toyo steel toolbox
and a bunch of things likereally nice, like notebook
patches that you could iron onto things, cool Pens, so just
like the highest quality item inevery category.

(56:26):
Yeah, and connected it to thisidea of like this is your
toolbox and these, as aprofessional, are your tools,
effectively that kind of go intothe toolbox.
And then we sent that to our200 earliest paying customers
and had a really nice notealongside it and people loved it
and tweeted it and like a lotof things and because we had so

(56:49):
many posts about it, I thinkpeople on our team were like oh,
people really like swag youknow, and I'm like yeah, I think
if you do it in a very highquality way and in a very
targeted way, that could be ourstyle, our version of doing this
.
We don't have to have a closetwith 8 million t-shirts in there
that anyone can access, yeah,yeah.

(57:11):
So just find the thing thatworks really well for you and
your company.
So I think, just figuring out,like you know, again, other
companies are going to do thingsdifferently.
If I had suggested that welaunch an online store where
people could buy anything forplenty, our founders would be
like okay, Christina you're outof here.
But, you know, doing somethingthat felt really nice and custom

(57:33):
and thoughtful to a limitednumber of users felt really good
.
And so I think it's always likehow could I take this advice
and how does it apply to Linear?
Right, but just getting on someof those phone calls with
people that you feel like didsomething really great, had a
really fantastic experience, aredoing something really great,

(57:55):
and just using them as asounding board when you have an
idea or don't know how to dosomething.
I have a little COO iMessagegroup with a few people Perfect,
perfect, um, and so when it'slike you know you're talking
about like hey, what's comp likefor this role, you know, or
things like that that are comingup every now and then, or
there's like small littlequestions, like you just have a

(58:17):
group to kind of ask them to andit's really helpful, yeah so
build, build your networks,build your communities, yes, and
where can people find you ifthey want to follow along your
journey or get oh, let's see.
let's see, I'm pretty active onTwitter, or X, oh God, whatever
people call it these days.
My handle is CJC.
And then, yeah, I'm prettyactive on LinkedIn.

(58:38):
I go to a lot of events in SanFrancisco, so you might find me
there too.

Speaker 2 (58:42):
But yeah, I know you're speaking at a couple
coming up too, so I'm surepeople can follow along some of
your speaking engagements alsopodcasts, and we'll drop your
socials in the show notes toofor everyone.
Awesome, thank you.
Awesome.
This has been fantastic,christina, thank you for joining
us and thank you for sharingyour story.
Yeah, thank you for having me.
You bet it's been a lot of fun.

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