Herbalists' Views on the Top-Selling Herbs (Part 1): Psyllium, Elderberry, Turmeric, Ashwagandha

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Hi, I'm Ryn and I'm here at Commonwealth Holistic
Urbanism in Boston,Massachusetts, and on the
internet everywhere. Thanks tothe power of the podcast , uh,
this week I am flying solo andI'm doing a presentation for
you about how herbalist look atand work with, and think about
some of the, the top sellingherbs or the best selling herbs

(00:34):
in, in a commercial context.
So, at the grocery store, at asupplement shop , uh, online
sales, things like that. Whatare the products that people
are buying the most of and why?
What are they doing with them?
And do the people who sellthose products, those
supplements, those items , uh,market them the same way that

(00:56):
herbalist? Think about them ina traditional context or in the
context of contemporaryherbalism the way we work now.
Um, those are some of the, some of the topics
that we're gonna be , uh,addressing here today. Uh, so
before I jump in, I just wannagive a quick reminder that we
are not doctors. We areherbalist and holistic health
educators. The ideas discussedin this podcast do not

(01:18):
constitute medical advice. Nostate or federal authority
licenses herbalists in theUnited States. So these
discussions are for educationalpurposes only. We wanna remind
everybody that good healthdoesn't mean the same thing for
every person. Good healthdoesn't exist as one objective
standard. It's influenced byyour individual needs,
experiences, and goals. So,keep in mind that we're not

(01:40):
attempting to present a singledogmatic right way that you
should adhere to. Everyone'sbody is different. So the
things we're talking about mayor may not apply directly to
you, but we hope they'll giveyou some new information to
think about and some ideas toresearch and experiment with.
Further finding your way tobetter health is both your
right and your own personalresponsibility. This doesn't

(02:02):
mean you're alone on thejourney, and it doesn't mean
that you're to blame for yourcurrent state of health, but it
does mean that the finaldecision, when you're
considering any course ofaction, whether it's discussed
on the internet or prescribedby a physician, that's always
your choice to make. Alright ,so , um, why, why this topic at
all ? Um, the, theinterest in this , uh, for me

(02:24):
kind of began when we startedteaching pharmacy students. Um,
if you've been a follower ofthe podcast for a while , then
you may know already that inaddition to our own online herb
school , uh, which you canfind@commonwealthherbs.com ,
uh, in addition to that, one ofthe things we do , uh, for work
is we teach what are called a erotations , uh, a PPE, advanced

(02:49):
Pharmacy Practicum Experience.
Um, and so these are studentswho are in their sixth year of
training in pharmacy school,and , uh, they can take an
elective , uh, and spend sixweeks learning herbalism from
us. Um, and so we've done thatin different ways over the
years, but it's been a , along-term thing. And as , uh,
uh, starting like 11, 12 yearsago is when we began with that.

(03:11):
And , um, you know, talking to, uh, those students and
thinking about what theircareer was gonna be like , uh,
just realizing that there's alot of herbs that are very
popular commercially speaking,but , uh, weren't actually
super important to our clinicalpractice. Uh, or they weren't
herbs that we, we personally,ourselves, like me and Katya

(03:32):
focused on very much , uh, inthe work we do, and then others
that we know very, very welland work with very, very
frequently, oftentimes in quitedifferent ways or other, or
expanded or additional ways incomparison to the ones that are
promoted , uh, in, in the , theproduct packaging or , um, you

(03:53):
know, in, in kind of marketingterminology. Um, so , uh, you
know, I started talking tothose pharmacy students, or we
both did really , uh, talkingto them about those plants and
talking about the way that ,uh, we think about them and how
to compare and contrast that tothe kind of commercial
presentations for the plants.

(04:13):
Um, and in most cases, reallyjust to try to expand away from
something that's beenpigeonholed, right? Take this
herb for that problem. Taketurmeric for inflammation, or
take it for joint pain. Uh,take , uh, take this one as a
laxative, take this one as animmune booster, you know , um,
and trying to teach traditionalherbalism, which sees these

(04:33):
plants as much broader than anysingle effect or any single
action , uh, like those. Um,and , uh, as time has gone on,
I've gotten interested in thistopic even further, and , um,
tried to , uh, tried to get abroader sense of, you know ,
what's going on with herbalismin this commercial realm. Um,
what are, again, what are theplants that are most popular ,

(04:55):
um, or that people are mostexcited about? And also how
that changes , uh, based onworld events. Uh, for instance,
when Covid came around, therewas suddenly a , a greater than
usual increase , uh, ofinterest in elderberry and
other , uh, immune , uh, herbsand, and remedies , um, for
obvious reasons, right? Uh, butwe do see shifts in the herbs

(05:19):
that are most popular , um, ormost , uh, most , uh, you know,
most, well, well sold ,I guess you could say , um,
over the years. And as timegoes by , um, one of the key
things that has , uh, beenhelpful in tracking this kind
of information is , uh, amarket report. It's the herbal

(05:39):
market report. It's put out bythe American Botanical Council,
and it comes out every year.
Um, and there they have dataabout herbal supplement sales
for the prior year. Um , and ,uh, that's something that I've
been following for a long time,and always interested to see
like, oh, what's the number oneherb this year? And how, how is
El elderberry doing? DidAshwagandha go up or down in ,

(06:00):
in the rankings? You know,stuff like that. Um, so it's an
interesting report, and I've,I've got a link to it in the
show notes. Um, and it'll begood , uh, as you listen to
this episode and , uh, others,'cause this is gonna become a ,
a series of episodes. I'm notgonna cover everything today ,
uh, but , uh, as you listen tothese, it'll be good to have
looked at the report, checkedout the lists , um, at least

(06:23):
when you, when you look at it,you'll notice a couple of
things , um, that they includein there. Um, one of them is
that there's actually twolists. One is the so-called
mainstream channel, and thenthe other is the so-called
natural channel. Um, and we'll,we'll talk about the
differences between those in aminute. Uh , but , uh, again,
it is, it is an interesting wayto see what people are buying,

(06:44):
what people are wanting,, you know. Um, and to
step back a moment, the, thereason to investigate this, and
the reason I wanted to, to dothis series of podcast episodes
is essentially this. If you'rean herbalist, you should be
familiar with the herbs thatpeople take most frequently.
You should be familiar with theones that are popular. You
should know what is popularand, and why, like, what is

(07:07):
drawing people to that plant orthat product, right? What is
convincing people that this isworth taking, that this is
gonna help them ? Um, and whatdoes that say about what people
are experiencing, what peopleare worried about , uh, and
what people are coping with intheir lives. Um, you should
also be able to talk to peopleabout these popular plants for

(07:30):
a couple of reasons. One is to, uh, make sure that they
understand what they'reactually taking or to guide
them towards , uh, betterquality products. In a lot of
cases, that's quite necessary.
Um, it can also be to , uh,correct misconceptions that
people may have , uh, aboutcertain plants or , um,
supplements and how they work,what kind of things they can or

(07:53):
can't do in the body, what kindof safety profile they have, or
risks that they may have. Um,so all of those are really
important to be able to expressto a client or somebody that
you're consulting for. Um, youmay also , uh, find ways to
offer more effectivealternatives to an individual

(08:14):
person. 'cause again, they maybe taking a supplement because
they've heard it's good forfill in the blank , right? I'm
taking this 'cause I heard itwas good for high blood
pressure. I'm taking this'cause I heard it was good for
cognitive function. And you asan herbalist, especially if
you're well-trained, you mightbe able to say, okay, I can see
why that would interest you andwhy that herb is popular for
that purpose, but for yourbody, for your constitution,

(08:36):
for your particular state ofbeing, I think this other herb
or this formula would actuallyserve you better. Um, so that's
something that we can do forour clients that's really,
really helpful for them. Um,and you know, that, that kind
of dovetails with one otherelement there, which is which
supplements are actually worththe money and which
ones, which ones may not be.

(08:57):
Um, especially when there are ,uh, questions of, of , uh,
accessibility andaffordability, you know, for,
for a given person's budget.
All right . So those are someof the ideas that , uh, we're
gonna be touching on as we gothrough. Um, this , uh, this
sequence of episodes. I thinkwe're gonna be weaving these in
and out with other types ofcontent , uh, for a while here

(09:20):
as we go forward. But , um, butlooking back to the herbal
market report, if you wannaopen that in a tab or , uh,
check it out as we go alonghere, or pause and , and poke
through it. Um, a couple thingsI wanna draw out , uh, right up
at the beginning here. So,first of all , um, sales of
herbal supplements are, are ,uh, pretty large, okay? Uh , it

(09:41):
, the estimate for the year2023, the year we have data
from here, is that Americansspent about $12.5 billion on
herbal supplements in thatyear. Um, and it's worth noting
that , uh, that that is onlyabout supplements. Like, we're
not including a number ofthings here that, that may have

(10:03):
herbs in them, , right?
So things like cosmetics, butalso personal care items like
lotions and , um, like skinrestore salves and things like
that wouldn't be included underthis particular , um,
investigation. Uh, herbalproducts like a , like an
herbal tea or tea bags , andthen prepared , uh, herbal teas
or beverages or things likethat. Also not included here

(10:26):
when herbs are as an ingredientin a , a food item, whether
it's a snack food or a littleprepared meal or whatever,
that's not included. And thenthere's a couple of places
where herbs or their extractscan show up in a commercial
product, but it's in thecategory of over the counter
drug rather than the categoryof supplement . Um, so a couple

(10:48):
examples there. Cilium husk,which is one of the herbs we're
gonna address today. Ciliumhusk can be sold as an herbal
supplement by itself or informulation, but it can also be
sold as an over the counterdrug. And in that, in that
situation, it's , um, specific, like the drug category. There
is bulk laxative or bulkinglaxative. Um, there are other

(11:11):
kinds of fiber product thatcould be sold that way, which
you may or may not considerherbal. Like some Metamucil
products, for instance, areactually made up with corn
fiber. Um, others are made withcilium husk. There's a, you
know, variety of differentthings. Um, but those, again,
they may be categorized assupplement. They may be
categorized as over the counterdrug. And in the latter case,
that's not , uh, that sale isnot counted in this, in this

(11:34):
particular report. Anotherexample of an herb that can
show up as an OTC med is Sena.
So Sena is an herb. Uh , andthere can be herbal products of
it, supplements that can becategorized that way, but
sometimes Sena or its extractsare included in an over the
counter drug product as astimulant laxative, which is
what that herb does. ,you know, it causes the

(11:55):
intestinal peristalsis and it,you know , uh, empties the
bells. Um, but anyway, that canbe in that group. And then
caffeine extracts, like itcould be a coffee extract or a
tea extract, same situation,could be sold as a supplement,
could also be sold as an overthe counter drug. In this case,
the drug category is alertnessaid. Okay? So , um, just to

(12:17):
say, there's a few cases likethat where depending on the
manufacturer or how they, howthey , uh, decide to sell their
product, what route they go ,um, they may be in one or the
other category. The other thingabout these lists , um, the,
the top seller lists in themarket report here. So there's
the overall sales, and like Isaid, that was about 12 and a

(12:39):
half billion dollars in 2023.
But they break that up intowhat they call channels, right?
Or like, like groups of storesor types of store types of
retailer. Uh, and so , um,there's the, the, the
mainstream channel , uh, whichis like grocery stores, drug

(13:00):
stores , dollar stores,convenience stores, things like
this. Uh, the ones that youwould just think of as being
more , more mainstream ratherthan specialty or niche or
whatever. Um, sales, there wereabout two and a half billion
dollars, right? $3 billion wasin the natural and health food
and specialty retail, or theso-called natural channel. Um,

(13:20):
but then $7 billion, right?
Which is more than those twoput up together. 7 billion was
in direct sales. And directsales here includes like buying
off of Amazon, buying onlinefrom someplace like
walmart.com, , if youwere to ever do that. Uh, also
multi-level marketing companies, um, where you might buy from
a representative who's also a ,like a , a mid-level person in

(13:44):
that pyramid situation. Um,direct sales, like from a
company who makes the productstraight through their website
to people. And then , um, salesthrough a health practitioner,
right? Like there might be anaturopath that , uh, you know,
has a wholesale deal with somesupplement company and they
sell them to their , uh, totheir patients or to their

(14:05):
clients , um, at a reduced rateor something like that. Um , so
the thing about this report andthe top seller is all of that
category, the direct sales,Amazon websites, MLM stuff, all
of that. Um, those are notincluded here, and I am very
curious about how that wouldadjust, which herbs are, at
which point or, or which, whichranking on the list. Um, but

(14:27):
it's obviously difficult datato get or to collate together,
and that would require a bunchof individual companies to sell
to , to share a lot of granulardata about what they're doing.
Um, so there's, there's somelimitations on what data we can
get about that. Um, but just tobe clear, these , um, these ,
uh, lists here are about what'scalled the mainstream channel

(14:50):
and the natural channel. Um,most of this series is gonna be
about the mainstream list. Um,'cause a lot of herbs show up
on both of them, and so we'lljust address them in the, in
the order they, they turn up.
Um, but towards the end of thissequence of episodes, there
will be a few bits about , uh,summers that show up on the
natural channel, but not themainstream one. 'cause there

(15:10):
are a few differences in, inranking and in membership , uh,
between them. All right . Sowe're gonna start today with,
again, the mainstream channel.
And like I said, that's likegrocery stores , uh, drug
stores, dollar stores,convenience stores. But this
isn't gonna include places likeWhole Foods , um, and , uh,
what are like Sprouts or other,other , like natural or

(15:33):
specialties, just shops likethat. Okay? Um, so on this,
this list, the number one herb, uh, is p cilium. And psyllium
is , uh, the seed of a speciesof plantain. Um, usually it's
gotten from plant Togo, ota ,uh, that's a species of

(15:55):
plantain that makes a lot ofseeds. They're quite large,
easy to harvest. And so it's ,uh, the simplest one to do ,
uh, for this. So cilium hasactually been in the number one
spot on these lists for twoyears now. Uh, prior to that it
was actually much lower , uh,on the ranking. Um, but it has,
it has moved up in just thelast couple of years. Um, as I

(16:17):
mentioned, that's always,that's one of the things I'm
looking for when I, when I seethe report each year. So like,
you know, who went up, who wentdown, how many spots , um, what
does that reflect in terms of ,uh, changes in the , uh, in the
interests among people for thatplant? So psyllium husk is ,
um, uh, is essentially sold asa fiber supplement, right? And

(16:39):
I mentioned earlier that it ,it's sometimes found in over
the counter bulk laxative drugproducts. Um, and that sales
for those aren't included here,despite that the service is
still at the top of the list,right? Um, and so the, the
thing that people are, arefocused on and, and marketing
around is the fiber content,both soluble and insoluble

(17:03):
fiber. Um, with cilium, it'smore soluble fiber than
insoluble. Um, like atablespoon of powdered cilium
husk gets you , uh, it , itweighs about nine grams total.
Seven grams of that is fibercontent. And , uh, of that six
grams is the soluble fiber, andone gram is the insoluble

(17:25):
fiber. This is a pretty nicebalance, honestly, ,
um, when it comes to like, guthealth. And so this is a , a
friendly , uh, source for thatkind of thing. Um, fiber
products like this, soluble,insoluble, the mix right, have
been studied primarily forgastrointestinal upsets and
more than anything else forconstipation , uh, p cilium

(17:45):
husk is really well proven asa, as an effective remedy for
constipation. Sometimes theefficacy depends on dose, and
if people take too little, theydon't get much of a benefit, or
it's not as noticeable as it asit could be. Um, in some
investigations, this has beenfound to be, you know, like
tested alongside a number ofother remedies and found to be
one of the most effectivethings as long as the dose was

(18:07):
high enough. Sometimes thatrequires a dose of like 10
grams of the cilium husk perday. Um, so again, like a whole
tablespoon of powder can getyou there. Um, somebody may
take that all in one dosetogether, or they may divide it
up in little in doses throughthe day . But one key thing,
whenever somebody's workingwith cilium husk, and any, any
product you look at is gonnahave a bunch of labels or a

(18:29):
bunch of like boxes on it , uh,to, to stress this is that
you've gotta take it with waterand with a lot of water is
better, right? So you wouldn'twant somebody to just take dry
cilium husk powder, put it intheir mouth and swallow it down
because, well, it's gonnaabsorb the water of your
digestive system and it's gonnaswell up there. Um, and if you

(18:49):
were to swallow a whole bunchof dry powder, it could swell
up in your stomach and kind ofmake a lump, that's not really
gonna move. It's a badsituation to be in. You don't
wanna set yourself up for that.
So if someone's taking a wholetablespoon of powdered cilium ,
they're gonna want like atleast 12 ounces of water right
there with it to stir it in,and then it's best to drink
even more water afterwards. Um,you don't have to take whole

(19:11):
tablespoon doses to get somebenefit from it. There's , um,
plenty of benefit to be hadfrom a teaspoon dose or, or
like a heaping teaspoon orsomething like that. Um, maybe
you do it twice a day if thisis your only source of fiber,
but listen, it really shouldn'tbe , right? And that's
worth noting here that when wetalk about, you know , uh,
providing seven or maybe eightgrams of, of fiber content to

(19:35):
you in a, in a significant doseof this, of this product, this
patterned cilium husk, let'scompare that to a couple foods,
right? Um, so in our digestivehealth course , uh, if you're
one of our students, if you'rein that course , um, then look
for the fiber, PDF .
Um, it's in the, the overalldigestive health , uh, chapter
in that course. And Katya hasmade a really excellent chart

(19:59):
of a bunch of food items andthe amount of fiber that they
can provide to you. Um, alsosome herb items, by the way.
Like if you get cooked nettlesand you have a cup of them that
gets you six grams of fiber, right? Um, uh, so I'm
not gonna read a bunch ofnumbers, but let's just say a
few numbers, right? Like, ifyou eat a whole avocado that'll
give you 10 grams of fiber.

(20:20):
Hey, that's at least as good asthat supplementary dose of
cilium husk. Or if you eat acup of blackberries that gets
you eight grams of fiber , um,just a quarter cup of almonds
will give you four grams. Or ifyou cook butternut squash and
you eat a cup of that ninegrams of fiber, right? So the
takeaway message here is thatWhole Foods, actual fruits and

(20:43):
vegetables, , okay?
They are your best. They areyour biggest source of fiber
unless you eat a very standardAmerican diet or a sad American
diet, right? Uh, in which theremay be lots of processed food,
lots of packaged food, mayberestaurant food, but there
could be minimal vegetablecontent, there could be lots of

(21:04):
flour there, and it may berefined instead of whole , uh,
flour, right? Or grains, thatkind of thing. And so those
foods can be really low infiber, and it's, it's actually
possible for people to have anextremely low fiber diet
without intending to do so. Um,right? I'm not talking about
people who do that purposefullybecause of small intestine
bacterial overgrowth or, youknow, other, other digestive

(21:25):
problems. Um, but just , uh,somebody who falls into a diet
that, that has low fibercontent , um, that person is
gonna get a significant amountof benefit from working with
something like cilium husk as afiber supplement, right? And
that might be a bridge strategyas we do some work , uh, to,

(21:46):
you know, alter the kind offoods that they, that they buy
and prepare, or how they, howthey cook or, or what kind of
things they , um, they eatprimarily. Um, but , uh, for
other people, this may just bea way to help them get up. Uh,
get up a little bit, a littlebit further in terms of fiber
intake. Um, like I mentioned,cilium has been studied for a

(22:08):
number of digestive upsets. Um,uh, its results for
constipation are the best forother things. The results may
be a little bit mixed, right?
One example is inflammatorybowel disease, which is a , a
broad category. And there wecan, you know, label a bunch of
other , um, conditionsunderneath that. But it is

(22:28):
exactly what it sounds like.
You've got inflammation in yourbowels , it's causing
upset, right? So , um, instudies that have looked at
that with cilium husk, theresults are mixed. Some seem
good, some seem not so good. Tome, what that means is that
this label, inflammatory boweldisease, is actually broadly
capturing a bunch of diverseconditions, and not all of them

(22:50):
are addressed much by fiber.
Some of them, yes. And thoseare the ones where it worked
out well, but others not somuch. And there'd be a
different approach we need,like focusing on restoration of
gut integrity or improvingvitamin D status to try to lock
down the tight junctions a bitor, or other, you know, methods
that we might, we might drawon. Um, one thing to note about

(23:13):
cilium husk is that it's notonly marketed for digestive
health anymore. There's been ashift sometime in the last few
years where you're seeing itmarketed for cardiovascular
health as well, and then a sortof very general wellness claim,
you know, supports wellness, right? Um, so that's,
that's very broad. Uh, butthere has been much greater

(23:34):
interest in cilium as acardiovascular health product
in, in recent years. Um, and ifyou're thinking of it in the
digestive system and the fibercontent, you may be wondering
like, where, what , how, whywould that help? Um, the, the
simple understanding here isthat when we consume fiber ,

(23:56):
um, it can capture and bind upbile that has been secreted by
the liver and the gallbladderinto the intestine. Um, so it
can get bound up into the fiberand then eliminated out of your
body. This is a good thing ,uh, because when that doesn't
happen, if we have a low fiberdiet, that bile can get

(24:19):
reabsorbed, right? So insteadof getting squirted out and
helping with digestion andmoving, moving things along in
the guts and then leaving yourbody, it can get reabsorbed.
And when that happens, that'sone of the things that leads to
problems with the gallbladder.
Like gallstones can lead toliver issues. Um, and it can
also lead to a greaterreabsorption, not just of the

(24:43):
bile, but of, but ofcholesterol , uh, cholesterol
itself, right? That can alsoget bound up with the bile ,
uh, with the, with the fiberand eliminated. But if there's
insufficient fiber, thatcholesterol might itself get
reabsorbed and come back intothe system. So what's been
found when this has beenstudied, you know, they have
people take the fibersupplement every day for a

(25:03):
month or however long, and theymeasure their cholesterol
levels before and after. Youfind that with , um, cilium
supplementation, you can seereductions in total cholesterol
and in LDL, but not in HDL, andnot usually in triglycerides
either. All of this is reallypretty consistent when it comes

(25:25):
to the effects of fiber richfoods or supplementation with
fiber on these blood lipids orthese, these , uh, like fatty
substances that, that move inthe blood and circulate through
the body. Um, so that, justlike capturing the bile,
capturing the cholesterol,eliminating it with the feces

(25:47):
is a major way that , uh, thata fiber supplement like cilium
can improve. Uh, your, your,your blood , uh, your blood
parameters there, there'sanother aspect to it though,
which is prebiotic effects. Soaltering the gut flora in a
positive way by feeding them,essentially, right? Some of
that soluble fiber is food forsome of your friendly gut

(26:09):
flora. So you feed them, theytake care of you ,
right? And that includes withdigestive and eliminative
functions as well. Um, and sothat, that also aids in
bringing the, the so-called badcholesterol, bringing that
down, right ? Um, and , uh,part of the benefit that those
microbes can have is that theycan take some of that fiber,

(26:30):
they consume it, they fermentit, and they convert it into
short chain fatty acids. Thenyour body can absorb and
utilize those and burn them asa really clean energy source.
Yep . So that's pretty nice.
Um, alongside thoseimprovements in cholesterol
numbers, people have oftenseen, or studies have shown

(26:50):
improvements in your bloodsugar level, especially fasting
blood sugar levels, the hba onec reading, which is , uh, a
sort of a , a measurement of alonger term state of your body
in terms of blood sugarregulation , um, and then even
in , uh, in blood pressure ,uh, as well systolic blood
pressure in particular. Um, soall of those things are great,

(27:13):
but again, just keep in mindwhenever someone's talking
about the health benefits ofcilium, that if this person was
to eat a couple of cups ofleafy green veggies every day ,
uh, if they were to increasetheir intake of , uh, certain
nuts, if they were to have alot more blackberries and
raspberries in their, in theirlife, those would also increase

(27:34):
the fiber content , uh, oftheir, of their diet , um, of
their, their intake. And wewould expect these same kind of
benefits. So just to say it's asupplement, it's not a
necessity. You don't have acilium deficiency, you may have
a fiber deficiency, and pcilium may be a good way to
fill that in or, or cover thegap. Um, but , uh, there are

(27:57):
other ways to accomplish it.
I'd just like to make thatclear. Alright . Um, one other
small note, , a coupleof , uh, the cilium husk
products, the ones wherethey're ground to a powder,
they'll also say, oh, you canuse this as an egg replacement.
Um, like if you take a teaspoonof this powder, it replaces one
egg in your baking. I'm not agreat baker, but I've given

(28:18):
this a try a couple of times.
And my, my read on it is, eh kkinda okay, . Um, you
can try it out. If you've got alovely recipe , uh, that
involves this for that purpose,let me know, but my results
weren't fantastic. Yeah, we'llsee. Uh, all right , so we've
been talking a lot about thecommercial presentation and the
popularization of it and so on.

(28:40):
Um, but let's step back alittle and be herbalists here
and say, we're talking about pcilium. We're talking about
plantago ota . So it's aplantago, it's a plantain,
right? Not the banana thing,but plantain, the little ground
herb , uh, the little green ,uh, leafy rosette on the
ground, and then the, the spikeof the stem that that grows up
and , and makes the seeds. Soif we focus on the seed first,

(29:02):
other plantago species , uh,including plantago, majure and
plantago lanta , um, these arelike the two most common
plantain species where I livein New England. Um, you could,
you can gather the seeds fromthere, you could grind them
into powder. Uh, you can takethem as a fiber supplement if
you want to. Um, nothing tostop you from doing it. The ota

(29:24):
, like I said, it just makesmore seeds. It's easier to
gather, and that's why it'sgrown for that purpose. Um, but
herbalist, we, we knowplantain, plantago primarily
for the leaf rather than theseeds. And plantain leaf is a ,
a fantastic remedy. I mean, ithas a ton of benefits starting
as a wound healer. Um, and thatcan be topical. That can also

(29:46):
be internal if we haveulcerations or , uh, wounds or,
or just like the, the degree ofinflammation that can affect
your digestive system. Plantainleaf is a really excellent
remedy for soothing that,healing that , um, uh, reducing
inflammation, reducingexcessive permeability in the
mucus membranes, right? All theway through. Um, so it really

(30:09):
is one of our, one of ourprimary digestive , uh, remedy
herbs. One of the nice thingsis that as it's like soothing
the entire GI tract and all themucus membranes there , um, it
also has some positiveanti-inflammatory benefits on
your liver, and it's what wecall a hepatoprotective herb in
that regard. Um, so that kindof adds an extra layer to

(30:32):
support for digestive organs,but kind of broadens the
activity there , um, in termsof your limited functions as
well. Um, so we could talk fora long time about plantain, and
in fact, we have , um, so forfurther discussion of plantain
from an herbalist perspective,I wanna point you back to
episode 205. Uh, that was wherewe talked about pine and also

(30:54):
plantain , uh, together. AndI'll put a link in the show
notes for that one. Um, butjust to say like, the , the
biggest difference, I think ,uh, the simplest way to say a
difference between commercialpresentation of plantago , uh,
plants, and the way herbalistthink about them is what part
do we work with, right? And ,uh, what kind of, what kind of

(31:15):
activities are we getting whenyou take the leaf? It's not so
much about fiber content, it'smore about little bit of misage
, a little bit of , little bitof tannins. Uh, a couple of
particular plant constituentsthat plantain makes a lot of,
like alto in and Aubin . Um ,Anisa have these beneficial
effects on your gut integrity.

(31:36):
Uh, some impacts on gut floraas well. Um, but they're
different from the provision offiber itself. Um, they could
certainly compliment eachother. Nothing to stop you from
making plantain leaf tea andputting p cilium seed powder
into it. . Um, youknow, you could , uh, you could
be having like a little familyreunion if you want to. Yeah.

(31:57):
All right , so that's, that'scilium . Uh, number two on the
mainstream bestsellers list iselder and specifically Elder
Barry . Uh, looking here atSambuca Nigra and Sambucas
Canadensis elderberry. Hmm .

(32:17):
Elderberry had a big bump insales, like I mentioned
earlier, in Covid , um,particularly the sales numbers
for the year 2020. Uh, therewas a , a massive jump from
where elder had been, now elderin prior years. It had been on
the, on the bestseller list,but it was like middle of the
pack somewhere, right? Uh, whenSars COVID-19 came around, and

(32:38):
as, as the pandemic was rollingon the interest in that people
looking for antiviral herbs,right? Looking for herbs that
are , uh, well regarded asbeing helpful for respiratory
infection. Elderberry is themost obvious candidate with
that, because elderberry hasbeen popular, very popular as a
cold and espec , especially asa, as an influenza remedy. Um,

(33:01):
for, well, for a really longtime actually. Uh , back to,
back to historical times, backto prehistory, I imagine. Uh,
so there was a big leap there,and there's been some
regression since then. Um,sales in the year 2023 of
elderberry products declined byabout 28, 20 8% , um, from the

(33:21):
prior year. So it's just aregression towards the baseline
there. Um, in the moderncontext, elderberry is sold in
a bunch of different ways.
Syrups , uh, are one of themore traditional ways and , um,
one of the better studied waysto take , uh, elderberry as
well. Um, capsules and tabletshave been around for a while ,
tinctures and, and glycerides,of course, and, and those are

(33:43):
not as popular. Uh, thetincture, the glycerin, those
formats are not as popular outthere in the general public. Uh
, maybe more familiar to you ifyou're an herbalist or going
to, you know, herb shops orapothecary shops and seeing
whole lines of tinctures there.
Um, but it's worth saying thatgummies have become very, very
popular. And the, the kind ofdevelopment and expansion of

(34:05):
gummy herbal supplementproducts , um, in the past ,
uh, 10 ish years or so, hasaccelerated and has also
brought a lot of , um, uh, alot of , uh, increased
attention to certain herbs orother supplement items , um,
uh, than they previously had.
Um, I'm not , I don't thinkwe'll get to it today, but when

(34:27):
we get to apple cider vinegar,that one had a really, really
big increase in , um, in salesonce gummies started to be
available. Um, so anyway,elderberry gummies are , are
quite popular, and , uh, you'llsee a lot of them if you go to
Amazon or Vitacost or somethinglike that. So, elder , um,
elderberry, of course, ismarketed for immune support,

(34:48):
right? Um, and if you everwonder why there are these kind
of vague claims, it goes, itgoes to the law about what,
what defines a supplement inthe United States and what
types of claims they're allowedto make on the labels. Um, and
so the general rule, which hashad some complications
recently, the general rule hasbeen that you're allowed to

(35:08):
make what are called structureand function claims. So you
can't, for a supplement, youcan't say , uh, this elderberry
supplement kills the flu virus,even if you can prove that it
does in a Petri dish, or you'vegot some lab studies that back
up the claim, you can't saythat kind of thing in the us .
Instead, you have to say,supports immune health. Um, so
that's what people do, right?

(35:28):
And so elderberry gets marketed, uh, for, for immune supports.
And then, you know, the way Iwould put this is that it does
get marketed for cold, for flu,for covid by any available
terminology. And depending onthe manufacturer and how
closely they hue to the rules ,um, that could be that they,
they just leave it at immunesupports. Um, in some cases

(35:51):
there are , uh, you know, othermakers or, or smaller scale
providers or things like that ,um, who might be playing a
little more freely withthe terminology. Um, and so,
you know, just that is theimpression people have that
that idea is kind of alreadyout there in the world. Um, and
so that's, that's part of thedraw, that's part of the
popularity, right? One thing Iwanna make , uh, a , a special

(36:16):
note about when it comes toelderberry , um, and products
for, for immune support andthat kind of thing, is that
occasionally you'll go andyou'll look at an elderberry
product, and right there on thebox it will say, take for cold
and flu , uh, works for , uh,cough and sneezing and runny
nose and fever and aches andpains. Now, if you see that,

(36:36):
look at the box a little moreclosely, and you'll probably
see the word homeopathicwritten on it, because
homeopathic products areregulated differently from
herbal supplements and, andother supplements, vitamins and
minerals and so on. They'reregulated differently here in
the us . So if you're selling ahomeopathic product, there are
certain disease claims orsymptom names that you are

(37:00):
allowed to put on your label,but you're not allowed to do
that if it's a, what I wouldcall a full strength herbal
supplement or, or herbalproduct, right? Um, the reason
this matters is that ahomeopathic product and a
supplement , uh, product arevery different from each other.
One simple way to see that isthat a homeopathic product
could be a little white tablet.

(37:23):
Any extract of elderberry thathas its active chemistry in it
is gonna be purple because theactive chemistry is purple
, right? The activechemistry , uh, I mean, there's
a lot of active chemistries youcould say in elderberry, but
the anthocyanins are a big partof what does the job of helping
your body fight off , uh, coldand flu and other, other

(37:44):
infections like that. Um, andthey are purple. They are the
pigment, they're the pigmentand the medicine together. Um,
it's the same thing. And so ifwe have a product , uh, and
it's a clear liquid or a whitepowder, that's not elderberry
chemistry, that, that'ssomething else. Homeopathic
products, of course, are madein a, in a process which

(38:05):
dilutes the original substanceto such a point that there's
probably no, no molecules ofthat original substance left in
the finished product. Um, so Imentioned this in the context
of elderberry. Um, it doesapply to, to other supplements
as well. You might seehomeopathic turmeric products
out there, or homeopathicashwagandha or whatever. Um,

(38:29):
but elderberry, they're morecommon. And even , um, it's
even worth noting here thatsometimes the same brand ,
including very popular brands,can produce products in both
categories. They make ahomeopathic line over here, and
they make a full strengthsupplement line capsules or
gummies or syrups or whateverover here. One, one brand we

(38:50):
can name that does both ofthose, is, is the probably the
most popular elderberry brandout there, Sambuca Sambuca. So
Sambuca has been in theelderberry game for a long
time. They've , um, you know,run and funded a number of
studies into its efficacy, likethe efficacy of their own
elderberry syrup , uh, againstflu and , um, and some other

(39:11):
respiratory viruses. And thedata's actually good , um, even
though it is yes, corporatefunded . Um, so , uh, so
anyway, you can go to Amazonright now. If you just type in
Sambuca , the first row ofresults will probably include
two or three homeopathicproducts, and then two or three
actual supplements, you know,syrup or gummy or something
like that for you as anherbalist. I just want you to

(39:34):
be very, very capable ofdifferentiating homeopathic
versus supplement products whenit comes to elderberry. If
somebody loves homeopathy andthat's what they want, that's
what they want, great. But alot of people don't know the
difference, right? They'vemaybe heard this phrase, herbal
and homeopathic remedies,right? And they don't

(39:55):
understand that there's amassive difference between them
in terms of what you actuallyconsume, right? If you have an
elderberry tincture over hereand an elderberry homeopathic
liquid over here, well, like Isaid, the, the tincture will be
purple. It will haveanthocyanins, it will have
other elder chemistry in it,the homeopathic, it will be a
clear liquid with probably noactual molecules from it. So ,

(40:17):
um, I'll be agnostic todayabout which one is, is , uh,
you know, , uh, is, isbest for any individual given
person. Um, clearly mypreference is for the actual
supplements and products, andthat's what I like to work
with. Um, but again, I justwant you, dear listener, to be
very capable of making thatdifferentiation and passing
that knowledge on to peoplethat you work with. All right ?

(40:42):
So , um, this is a case wherethe, the kind of marketing ,
uh, about elderberry is notwrong, but it is constrained a
bit, right? Elderberry isindeed an excellent immune
support herb. Uh, it canheighten your immune responses
and reactions , uh, to anillness. And , uh, that's one

(41:03):
of the reasons why it's best totake it early on in the
illness. If you've been sickfor three or four days, adding
elderberry at that point isn'tnecessarily gonna do a whole
lot for you. The earlier, thebetter. Um, and don't be shy
about dose size when it's earlyon either. That's my my advice
to you about elder , uh,remedies. Um, elder can
heighten surveillance. Somefolks like to take elder, like

(41:24):
through the whole cold and fluseason , um, as a way to kind
of boost up their, their , uh,resistance there. I prefer
other herbs for that. Thingslike astragalus, codonopsis.
Um, but it's not a, it's not awholly wrong way to work with
elderberry. Um, it is anexpensive way to work with
elderberry if you've got goodquality products, though. So
that's worth, worthconsidering. Um, but the thing

(41:47):
is, elderberry is more thanthat, right? It's more than
cold and flu and, and covid .
It's more than immune boosting.
Uh, elder is a richly pigmentednutritive berry , right? Uh, it
is an anti anti-inflammatoryremedy from that perspective.
Um, and that does feed into itsactions on the immune system.
Like elderberry has acomplicated effect on immunity,

(42:08):
because immunity iscomplicated. It's not al , it's
not like on or off or, youknow, active or quiet. Um,
there are many branches andarms and members of the immune
system, and elderberryactivates some of them and
calms down some of them. Um,the net effect is that it tends
to make our passage through anillness much smoother and much

(42:30):
easier. Um, but , uh, sometimesthat information can be
misinterpreted because somebodymay zoom in on like one, say ,
um, one cytokine, oneinflammatory messenger that
elderberry does upregulate inthe body. And we've seen people
get really anxious about thatand worry about cytokine storm
and things like this. Andthat's not a realistic worry.

(42:54):
Um, I've got a reference, I'llput it in the show notes for
you about elderberry andcytokine storm just in case
that meme kind of floated pastyour brain at some point. Uh ,
we can put that one to rest.
Uh, but I think it is worththinking about elderberry in
that broader context ofinflammation , um, which has a
huge component to the immuneresponse, right? A lot of our

(43:14):
immune response is inflammatory, uh, but that's not the whole
of the immune response, andthat's not the whole of the
inflammatory response in ourbody. So anyway, elderberry is
worth considering there. Um,it's, it's also got lymphatic
actions to it. It's also gotdiuretic actions to it. Um, and
those might be very helpful ,uh, for a given person. We

(43:35):
might say, all right , youknow, you have a diet that's
very beige. I wanna get yousome pigments, I wanna get you
some vitamin purple. Uh, you'vegot stuck fluids in your body.
I wanna move your lymph. Iwanna drain some fluid from the
kidney. So elder can accomplishall of those. We don't need to
be like, well, elder can dosome immune stuff, but then I
need nettle for diuretic, and Ineed calendula for a lymphatic.

(43:55):
Don't underestimate elder , right? It has these,
these capacities to it. Um, andyou know, when we, we set all
of those aside, each other, wecan see where elder , um, is
one of those exemplars of theherbalists category.
Alternative , right?
Alternative is a , is a bigumbrella category. There's lots
of sub components to that. Um ,alternative is about improving

(44:19):
the quality of circulatingfluids in your body. And you
can do that in different ways.
Elder is doing that throughnutritive ways, through
lymphatic ways, diuretic ways,and then yeah, inflammation
mitigation and , um, immunemodulation. Those are all
happening at the same time. Uh,and so I think when you see it
from that perspective, you canunderstand why elder is such a

(44:40):
classic alterative agent. Um,and it really does deserve a ,
a place in those kind offormulas these days. A lot of
times that approach is lookedat , looked at under the, the
idea of detox. Um, but that'sactually a fairly impoverished
way to look at it , uh, incomparison to the, the
traditional approach. Um, so Ithink that's why people focus

(45:01):
so much on like strong laxativeagents and not quite enough, as
far as I'm concerned, on plantslike elderberry. All right .
Um, now from the herbalistperspective, elder is also not
only the berry , right?
Uh , so other parts of elder,in my experience anyway, are
rarely, or almost never,depending on which part, like

(45:22):
found in, in supplementproducts, in in commerce these
days. Um, elder flower mightturn up here and there. I mean,
certainly you can find elderflower lour , like , uh, like
St . Germaine , uh, is a nice ,uh, nice one. Um, you can see
elderberry turn up in , uh,sorry, elder flower turn up in
some , um, some teaformulations and blends. Uh,

(45:44):
certainly some body careproducts and, and, you know,
skincare and stuff like that,elder flower can turn up there.
And that does track with , uh,with traditional ways of
working with it as well as a,as a topical remedy for like
skin ification , um, and thatsort of thing. We see elder
flower also being a relaxantdiaphoretic , uh, to release

(46:05):
pent up heat from the body. Um,both physical heat, like a
fever. Um, and you as theherbalist, you may be familiar
with elder flower as a , a niceremedy for releasing the heat
of a fever when we want to dothat. But , um, Katya and I are
also very interested inrelaxant diaphoretic from a, a
nervous system or an emotionalperspective , um, talking about

(46:25):
them as emotional diaphoretic ,uh, to release hot emotions and
pent up frustration andagitation. Um, and I'd say from
, for our own practice, that'sone of the key , uh, indicators
for elder flower , um, thatdrives our work. Yeah . Uh, and
so that's bringing it into thatnervy category and, and seeing

(46:47):
some actions over there. Thereare a couple other parts that
you won't see , uh, at least Ihope not honestly, in ,
uh, in supplement products. Andif you do, look, look ance upon
them is what I would tell you.
Uh, but so the leaf, elder leaf, um, no thanks. All right . So
there's supposedly someantiviral activity to be found

(47:08):
in elder leaf , but as far as Ican see, the activity of like
the antiviral proteins in elderleaf have been overstated in
terms of practical application.
And the reason is that themargin between a safe and
comfortable dose of elder leafand a ative and cathartic dose,

(47:31):
like get all the stuff out ofyou from both ends of you,
okay? The difference betweenthose doses is quite small and
, uh, variable from person toperson. So I think you're more
likely to cause somebody tovomit and have uncomfortable
diarrhea than you are to boostup their immune fighting effect
. This is a case where likemany others, where some

(47:54):
antimicrobial or particularlyantiviral activity of a plant ,
um, can be identified in aPetri dish, take an extract of
this plant, squirted onto someviruses, crawling around in
there, and we can see them ,uh, we can see them die, but
taking it in your mouth, havingit circulate through your body
and reaching the place in yourbody where those viruses are

(48:15):
reaching there at aconcentration, strong enough to
do that to them, not verylikely, and also very
uncomfortable along the way. SoI'm not, I'm not real keen on
elder leaf taken orally forthese kind of purposes. Um, I
do know some herbalists wholike to work with elder leaf
topically, though , uh,including in wound care , uh,
blends , um, both , uh, openwounds and then, and then

(48:38):
closed wounds. Uh , like a ,like a contusion, you know,
something like that. Um, andthere, that's a , another way
to bring in someanti-inflammatory action , um,
less than a , like a viralfocus, but , uh, but that's a ,
a different kind of a thing and, um, that, that may be worth
doing. But it's e even amongherbalist I speak to, that's
fairly rare. Alright ? And thenelder Barak basically all that

(49:00):
same stuff, but even more soelder bark is gonna have a
purgative effect. And I guessif you really, really want one,
you can play around with that,but I'm not very interested in
that. Thank you, . Ithink that's about all I need
to say there. Hmm . So in theshow notes, I do have , uh, a
reference to episode 216.
That's the one where we talkedabout elderberry. That one we

(49:21):
also discussed sassafras,'cause they were next to each
other in the alphabet. Um, butyou can check that out if you
want more discussion aboutelder as an herbal medicine.
All right , let's do two moretoday. Um, so number three on
the mainstream list isturmeric. And this one , uh,

(49:42):
this one is number three on themainstream list. It's number
one on the natural list , uh,for 2023. And in both of them,
it's been up near the top, youknow, like the top four or
five, I'd say , uh, for thepast several years. Um, and
you're probably not surprisedby that. Like if you're
listening to an herbalismpodcast, you've probably heard

(50:02):
of turmeric, you probably knowthat it's , uh, it's
anti-inflammatory. You mayalready be familiar with some
chemistry in turmeric. Thecurcumin, or the broader term
is curcuminoids. Uh, oid meanskind of like , right ?
So to say curcuminoids meansthat there's curcumin as

(50:24):
strictly defined, and thenthere's a bunch of other
chemicals that are almost thesame, but a little bit, a
little bit different, like alittle bend over here, a little
extra bit tacked on over there.
And so they're curcumin,they're curcuminoid ,
right ? Um, so that , uh,particular chemistry has been
very well identified and veryheavily studied. And from one

(50:47):
perspective, this is the activeingredient in turmeric, right?
Um, and so , uh, you know, ourtake on that whole concept of
the active ingredient is thatthe active ingredient in
turmeric is turmeric. Theactive ingredient in elderberry
is the whole berry, right? Wedon't like to be reductionist.
When we look at our plants ,uh, we find that there can be

(51:08):
drawbacks to that right ? Now,turmeric products, you'll find
some that are the wholespectrum extract. You'll find
some that are standardized, andthat means that they've decided
they want to hit X percentcurcumin. So they're gonna do
some extract. They might domultiple extracts and combine
them, like, get extra curcuminfrom over here, combine it with

(51:30):
this, with this , uh, with thisraw or this , uh, this native
extract. Um, that's a term fromthe industry, right? It means
that it hasn't been deeplyprocessed or selectively , uh,
uh, enhanced or whatever. Butthen you add that isolated
curcumin on top of it, and yousay, all right , I've got this
capsule for you. I guaranteeyou're gonna get 10% curcumin,

(51:51):
even if that's not whatnaturally occurs in the plant.
So standardization ofteninvolves some degree of
concentration, which is to say,presenting you with something
that has a higher proportion ofthat target chemistry than you
would get in the whole plantitself. And then sometimes we
see isolates, right? Isolatesmeans you've taken just that

(52:12):
one chemical. So if it's not aturmeric product, it's a
curcumin product that I wouldconsider a plant extract
isolate, right? You haveisolated that one compound.
You're only taking that. So I'mjust describing all of this
because turmeric more so thanmany other plants that are
popular, that are sold in, incommercial products , uh, this

(52:35):
one, it does turn up in wholeplant extracts and in isolates
and in everything in betweenthe varieties of
standardization orconcentration. Um, and
furthermore, the sales , likethe, the way they're
categorizing this, the salesfor turmeric include those
isolates. You could make acontrast there with the herb

(52:58):
Sena, right? Sena is thatstimulant laxative plant. Um,
with Sena, if it's a wholeplant extract, that's probably
gonna be sold as a supplementand included in these
discussions. But if they justisolate the seno sides , right?
This is chemistry incent that,that has, that, that stimulant
effect on your bowels , um,when those are isolated and put

(53:19):
into an over-the-countermedication , um, or well,
anyway, when they're put into aproduct, it's gonna be classed
or categorized as an over thecounter medication instead.
Okay? So anyway, curcumin,curcuminoid, turmeric, some
combination of all of thesethings. These are all grouped
here together, right ? Andthey're all, they're all sold
for similar purposes, right ?

(53:41):
Um, primarily for joint pain,for inflammation, for joint
health. Um, many now for like avery, like, again, that that
sort of general like improveshealth , you know, or ,
uh, general health or whatever.
Like sometimes it's, that'sthe, that's all the marketing
they, they choose to do, right?
Or all of the, the label claimsthey choose to make. Um, there

(54:04):
are , uh, different ways tocategorize how a product is
being marketed. Usually what'sused is called health focus,
right? Um, and if, if there's aproduct, then it lists like
three or four things that canhelp you with. It would be
whichever one is biggest ormost repeated or something like
that. Um, so turmeric , uh,because it's popular, because

(54:25):
it has that broad reputation asan anti-inflammatory. Um, there
are turmeric products that arebeing sold for like 20
different health focuses, butmost of them are really
minimal. Um , pain,inflammation, joint health,
those, those are the biggestones. And they have been , um,
for, you know, a decade or two.

(54:46):
Uh, what I'm noticing though,and I'm seeing this like among
functional medicine people andnaturopath practitioners and
stuff like that, is thatthere's a movement being made
toward discussing turmeric as ,uh, a remedy beyond joints and
inflammation and gut health andlooking into cardiovascular

(55:09):
health , uh, as kind of thenext frontier. And then beyond
that , um, there are somestirrings around turmeric as a
remedy , uh, for, for cognitivehealth and for brain health.
Now, all of these share , uh, acommon root , right? Uh, when
we look at the propensity forpeople to have inflammatory

(55:31):
diseases or to have , uh,health conditions that are
exacerbated by inflammation,and then we look at a substance
like turmeric that can havepowerful anti-inflammatory
effect throughout the body ,um, then we, we should expect
that it can act on manydifferent places in your
system, right? And thereforethat it can help with, you
know, cardiovascularinflammation, inflammation

(55:54):
that's, that's irritating yourbrain or, or interfering with
healthy nervous systemfunction, digestive
inflammation, inflammation inyour joints, like all the way
through, right? Um, but it isagain, interesting to me to see
where do people try to makespace for a new market , uh,
for, for turmeric sales ,right? Uh , that turmeric over

(56:14):
there is for your belly. Thisone here is for your brain.
Haha, , right ? Um ,you know, for , for , for us ,
uh, we see the herb, we see itscapacity to mitigate
inflammation, and we see theexpressions of inflammation in
all these different places inthe system. And so it does kind
of all hang together. Um, onthe other hand, as an

(56:34):
herbalist, I don't thinkinflammation equals turmeric,
right? I think, okay, do I wanta carminative? Do I want a
plant that has ency to it andit's gonna be digestive
stimulant? And also has , uh,some like obvious like
anti-inflammatory activity thatyou can observe when you take

(56:55):
somebody with really irritatedguts and they work with
turmeric, and it's a good matchfor their system. Uh, you know,
because it is a hot herb,because it is a drying herb,
because it has some tonifyingqualities to it. So if we have
somebody, you know, mostideally who's damp and lax and
cold, and we have them workmore with turmeric, they're
gonna get the most benefit fromit. Somebody who's hot and dry

(57:16):
and tense already, and theyjust start shoveling turmeric
into themselves and may notactually be the best goal or ,
or the best match for them. Um,the dryness exacerbation is the
most likely first thing to see.
Sometimes people, peopleexperience heat from turmeric.
Um, it's very similar toGinger. Um, it's almost as warm
as ginger. Not quite, but, butanyway , um, you know , uh,

(57:37):
it's, it's, it's a food. It ,it can be a , an herbal remedy
in terms of tea or tincture orthings like that. Um, and it's
, uh, its activities are gonnastart in the digestive system.
Um, if you, if you taketurmeric by itself, it's
primarily a digestive remedy.

(57:58):
Um, and part of that is becausecurcumin , uh, and the
curcuminoids, like the whole,whole crew, they're not super
easily absorbed through theintestinal barrier to get into
the liver, to get into thebloodstream, to get into
general circulation and toreach your joints or your brain
or your heart, right? Um, whenyou take turmeric by itself,

(58:21):
it's primarily agastrointestinal remedy,
anti-inflammatory, soothingwound healing. Um, you know,
has a bunch of really nicebenefits that carative effect
of moving things along,releasing tensions in , in the
guts, right? Um, and so whensomebody is dealing with
Crohn's disease or IBS or, youknow, an unnamed but pervasive

(58:43):
digestive discomfort ,uh, then I would actually
encourage them to take turmericwithout black pepper, because
that's the other way thatyou're gonna see. That's,
that's one of the very commonways you're gonna see turmeric
sold, is in combination with anextract of black pepper , uh,
or specifically with thiscompound called piperine. Um,

(59:06):
the reason that people do thatis because piperine alters some
things at the intestinallining, which allow the
curcumin to pass through itmore readily, and to get up,
like I say, into the liver,into systemic circulation, and
to reach these distant parts ofyour body, distant, distant
from the gut. Okay? So ifsomebody wants to take turmeric

(59:27):
because of rheumatoid arthritiswith swelling around the joints
, um, or if they are feelinglike they've , uh, they're,
they're worried about braininflammation and they wanna try
turmeric for that, then that'sthe situation where it would
make more sense to , uh,combine turmeric together with
black pepper, as is oftentraditionally done, you know,
even in like a chai formula,bit of black pepper can go into

(59:49):
there , um, or if you're gonnabuy capsules or whatever, if
those are the types of goal youhave, go ahead and get one that
includes the turmeric and theblack pepper extract. Um, I
personally do think it's bestto get full spectrum extracts
of each rather than isolatedcurcumin plus isolated
piperine. Um, and I say that asa preference, but also I do

(01:00:10):
have some safety concernsthere. Um, in recent years,
there have been some reports ,uh, through things like the
Botanical AdulterantsPrevention Program , um, and
some other , uh, programs likethat which have shown , uh, a
heightened risk of adverseeffects , uh, from people
taking high doses, like very,very high doses of isolated

(01:00:33):
curcumin with isolatedpiperine, which you don't
really observe when it's wholeturmeric and whole black pepper
being mixed together. Um, andso I think it's actually better
to go with more traditionalmethods in this case , um, and
that it's, that it's safer. Um,uh, just to be clear, even in
those cases where there havebeen troubles found, it's not

(01:00:53):
like it's rampant and everysingle person who takes it gets
liver damage. It would bepeople who already had some
existing liver trouble or hadother impositions on their , on
their metabolism there. Butstill, that's, that's , uh,
that's enough people that I, Iam gonna be thoughtful about
it. All right . Um, turmeric hahas been investigated for a

(01:01:14):
number of differentinflammatory problems. Um, and
there is just very consistentevidence that it exerts these
effects, that it'santi-inflammatory as a result
of that it can relieve pain orswelling or other forms of
discomfort. Um, and so, youknow, nobody here is saying
that it's not effective, justthat the ways you take it might
be , uh, might be improved ormight be best serving you. Uh,

(01:01:39):
and again, in our opinion,that's when you get it closer
to the most traditional ways ofworking with it in food, you
know , uh, as a component in,in curry or other spice blends.
Um, and also in decoctions,whether you make it in , uh,
in, in coconut milk or if you,if you tolerate dairy, if you
prepare it that way and youprepare your golden milk,

(01:01:59):
right? That's another classicway to work with it. There is
some benefit to having theturmeric together with a fatty
substance like that , um, interms of absorption. Um, so
yeah, it's, it's great stuff.
We like turmeric a lot. And onething that , um, is sometimes
neglected when it comes toturmeric is topical
applications. Um, so I've got,I've got two , uh, show links

(01:02:21):
regarding turmeric for you inthe notes today. One is , uh,
episode 180 4, where we talkedabout Hawthorne and turmeric.
That was in our, our A to Zseries there , um, A to Z by
Latin name, Corte and Curcuma .
Uh, and then also way backepisode 1 49, we did one on
topical herbs for acne andturmeric was one of our

(01:02:43):
favorites. Um, along withanother plant you might not
think of as a topical, which isechinacea. Uh, but the two of
those are really, really goodfor certain forms of acne with
turmeric. It's especially theones that are more postulant,
more swollen, there's, yeah ,uh, goo if you squeeze, okay,
yeah, turmeric on those is, isquite nice. Um, it will put a

(01:03:04):
little gold tint on the skin ,um, so be aware about that. But
it is , uh, a nice direct wayto exert that anti-inflammatory
action and some antimicrobialeffect as well. Um, some , uh,
bacteria static effect on thesurface. Alright , so you can
hear a bit more about turmericin those episodes. Okay. And

(01:03:26):
then one more herb for now, andwe'll come back to this
sequence later on. Um,ashwagandha, ashwagandha is
number four, withania Samra .
Uh, and so I probably don'thave to tell you ,
right? Ashwagandha has gottenquite popular. Um, a lot more
people are, are like respondingwhen I asked them if they've

(01:03:47):
heard of it in the positivetoday than did 10 years ago, or
certainly 20 years ago. Um,ashwagandha has kind of made
its mark, right? And again,this is the mainstream list,
right? So Ashwagandha's comingin ahead of like cranberry
supplements and ginger andGinkgo and, you know , uh,
echinacea and a bunch of otherthings that , um, have been

(01:04:11):
more popular for more time. Um,but Ashwagandha came around ,
uh, several years back. Itkinda leapt up the charts in
2018 and 2019, and then it'scontinued to improve. Its
standing every year since then.
So it's up to number four.
We'll see what happens nextyear, , right? If we
take the bronze or something.
But , um, but that's, that'swhat's been going on with

(01:04:32):
Ashwagandha . Um, and it'smarketed almost always as an
adaptogen, and it might usethat word , uh, explicitly. A
lot of products use that, thatword adaptogen now because it's
caught on enough that peopleare familiar enough that, that
it might draw the eye , um,and, and make the purchase. Um,
some products , uh, that we'dcategorize as adaptogens are ,

(01:04:54):
you know, they're just marketedunder the, under the context of
stress or , um, uh, yeah,usually it's like stress
relief. Say something likethat. Some ashwagandha products
emphasize its benefits forsleep. Um, and of course that
is baked right into the name,the Latin name of the plant
with any , uh, some NEA or somenea , uh, FARA is like to

(01:05:15):
bring, and Sona is from Sona ,like sleep. So , um, right
there it's about bringingaround good sleep. Uh, and ,
uh, so yeah, there are someproducts that emphasize that.
Um, some people experienceashwagandha as a , as sedative.
Um, I think that's less common, uh, at least in, in my

(01:05:36):
experience, talking to studentsand clients, certainly in my,
in my own direct experience ,um, I find it to have a mild
stimulating quality to it. Um,but if you time it right, if
you take it during the daytime,then it can help you to be
awake and energetic and getsome stuff done and then to
rest easier at night. Um, andso we find this to be

(01:05:57):
particularly helpful , uh, whenwe're trying to support cycle ,
um, and circadian rhythmentrainment , uh, like when
your sleep cycle is reallydisjunct could be completely
irregular, you know , uh, couldbe that it's just offset from
the sun's circadian rhythm ,uh, by, by a few too many hours

(01:06:21):
, and it's causingnegative problems for you. Um,
so when somebody's trying tochange their cycles of sleep
and wakefulness and, and restand recovery , uh, trying to
make some improvements in that, uh, or when there have been
things that have disruptedcycle, and I, I keep using that
word cycle, but I mean it in abroad sense. Like the first
cycle we think about forashwagandha is day and night,

(01:06:42):
right? Active and awake andalert during the day,
expressing energy, and thenresting and recovering and
sleeping and dreaming at night,right? Recovering well. Um, but
ashwagandha , let's say,because it supports that cycle,
it can support larger cycleslike a menstrual cycle, for
instance, like somethingrunning on the course of a
month. Um, and , uh, this is anadaptogen that comes to mind

(01:07:05):
when there are menstrual cycleirregularities , um, uh, in
particular, right? And I don'tjust mean, like, I I do mean
irregular, like, like not, it'salways heavy. We would address
that maybe with some, some, youknow, astringent herbs, maybe
some yaro , some shepherd'spurse, some ladies' mantle,
something like that when it'salways just hot and heavy all

(01:07:26):
the time, right? Uh , but whenit's irregular, like this month
it was short and then it waslong, and then it was heavy
bleeding, and then it wasnothing. That's more like, all
right , let's try someashwagandha over the next
several months and see if weget some more normalized c
circulation of your cycle. Yeah. Uh, ashwagandha can also be

(01:07:47):
helpful when you need to adaptto an , an altered schedule
when your schedule needs toshift and, and change around ,
um, can be very helpful there.
And then around, like , like Isaid, in, in building new
habits and regimens aroundsleep and wake and activity and
rest. Yeah. Um, and then, youknow, one thing, one thing to

(01:08:08):
note from like the broaderperspective on ashwagandha ,
um, 'cause I , you know, I'vekinda given just a short moment
to say it's marketed forstress, it's marketed for
sleep. Um, a lot of people arestressed, a lot of people can't
sleep well. So , uh, thepopularity I think is explained
very easily there. Um, the waythat any ashwagandha product
can refer to the ancient wisdomI of Ayurveda is also part of

(01:08:30):
what has driven its popularityas that system, as that, as
that , uh, tradition has becomebetter known in America , um,
in part through the work ofyoga teachers, , right?
In part through , uh, the workof marketers. Yeah. Um, but ,
uh, that's, that's part of the,the attraction. Um, on that
note, I always like to pointout, because it was news to me

(01:08:52):
, uh, the first time I heardit, and it was news after
working with this herb for sixor eight years , uh, that it's
not only an Indian or anAyurvedic plant. Uh,
ashwagandha grows all the waywest from there up into
northern and Eastern Africa.
Um, and , uh, there are anumber of different ways that
people have worked with ittraditionally, including
working not only with the root,but also with the leaves. Um,

(01:09:17):
and many of the mosttraditional applications that
I've, I've come across forthose have been topical , uh,
wound care and stabilization ,uh, and, and skin issues and
things like that. Soashwagandha is an herb that has
a degree of popularity rightnow where a lot of people feel
like they know it very well.
Um, but I think for that veryreason, it's a , a good example

(01:09:40):
of this general idea I've beenraising today that , um, plants
get boxed in pretty tight. And, uh, if you were to just
reduce what ashwagandha can dodown to relieves stress, I
think that on the one hand youare, you are missing out on
some of the helpful things.
Like somebody might hear thatbut not think at all about
sleep. 'cause they're like,well, I'm stressed in the

(01:10:00):
daytime. Maybe if they feelstressed and can't sleep, they
might make a connection. But,you know, if you say this can
specifically help you to sleepbetter through the night
because it helps you to beenergetic and active in the
day, that gives a lot moreclarity, and it can help the
person to know whether that'sactually gonna be what's most
helpful for them, or if theyjust need a good strong

(01:10:21):
relaxant, like some kava, right? Um, and , uh,
that can help people to makebetter choices and , and get
better results. So, you know,we see that as, as our job. Uh
, for more on Ashwagandha checkout episode 2 26 , uh, that's
where we highlighted that , um,that urban particular with
Thania . And then , um, alsolook at episode 1 55. That's

(01:10:45):
where we talked about Equinox,thoughts on balance and on
herbs that are given this nameamphoteric , which is sometimes
just reduced to balancing. Um,but we have a lot to say about
that topic. And I , I, that wasone of my favorite episodes
actually. I really hope you'lllisten to it , um, if you
haven't already. Uh, becausebalance is a concept that , um,

(01:11:10):
it's, it's very important. Ithas a lot of nuance to it, and
oftentimes that gets missed ina way that I think can get
people stuck. Uh, likeliterally thinking of balance
as a frozen point of nomovement is a good way to get
yourself mentally andemotionally stuck and attached
to something that's not gonnabehave that way for you when

(01:11:31):
the reality of balance is thatit's something that requires
constant adjustments andresponse to your context. Ooh ,
you can see there's a lot todig into with that on ,
uh, on , uh, conceptual andphilosophical levels. Um, but
we're gonna leave some more ofthat for other times, and I
think I'm gonna wrap it up heretoday. Um, like I said, I'm

(01:11:52):
gonna continue on with thisseries. Uh, we'll probably
weave it in with some othertypes of episodes as we go
through, through , uh, the nextseveral months here. Um, but I
hope you find this interestingand helpful regardless of where
you're at in terms of yourtraining. If you're new to
herbalism, and this is thefirst you're hearing about
these plants, great. I'm, I'mglad I got to you first.

(01:12:13):
. Um, if you've beenaround a while and , uh, you
know, these plants , uh, inother ways too, then , um, I'd
be really happy for you toshare those with us. You can,
you can find our contact infoand reach out , um, right
through the show notes there.
So , um, yeah, so that's it fortoday. Um, I wanna just mention
, uh, that we do have , uh,long profiles on several of

(01:12:38):
these plants in our Materiamedica course. Uh, we don't
talk about pgo OTA so much, but, uh, p plantago major and
plantago , lata , thoseplantains, elder, turmeric ,
ashwagandha, we have , um,complete profiles for each of
those in our material Medicacourse. And if you do wanna
dive in to , um, the 90 plusplants that we find to be most

(01:13:01):
important and helpful in ourpractice, then that's the place
to do it. And , um, the otherreason to take something , uh,
to take a material medicalcourse like ours is to learn
how to understand plants. Whatare the aspects of it that we
need to know about flavor , uh,a little bit about chemistry
can be helpful. The herbalactions that, that , uh, have

(01:13:24):
been , um, attached to thatplant throughout, throughout
history and about and through,through practice. Um, the kinds
of formulations that it makessense in, the kind of friends
that it, that it plays nicelywith. Um , so that's what we
present in our holisticherbalism material medic
course. And , um, it's , uh,again, very, very critical as

(01:13:45):
an herbalist to know yourplants as well as you can. The
best way to do that is to studythem in, in their fullness, in,
in their complete complexity.
Um, and try to, to get furtherand further away from you take
this herb for this problem,right? That's, that's a big
piece of the work as we try todevelop our skills. All right ,

(01:14:06):
so that's it for today. Um, Ihope that you enjoyed it, and I
hope that you take care ofyourselves, take care of each
other, and drink some tea.
We'll see you soon.

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