Doug Laux "Left of Boom"

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone and welcome to the Human Behavior
Podcast.
Today we are thrilled to have atruly remarkable guest joining
us, Mr Doug Lauchs.
Doug is a former CIA caseofficer who spent years working
undercover in some of theworld's most dangerous
environments, facing threatsfrom the Taliban and Al Qaeda.
His experiences are powerfullycaptured in his New York Times
bestselling book Left of Boom,which I highly recommend you

(00:20):
check out.
Doug's unique career has alsobrought him into the world of
television, with appearances onseveral series, including his
latest role on the Netflixdocumentary series Investigation
Alien.
In this episode, Doug shares hisdeep insights into human
behavior, shaped by hisextraordinary experiences in
high stakes operations.
We discuss how theseexperiences influence his
understanding of people today,as well as reflect on some of

(00:42):
the moments we've shared workingtogether and our mutual
frustrations with navigating thecomplexities of the US
government.
I'm incredibly grateful to Dougfor taking the time to join us.
He's an extraordinaryindividual, a dedicated patriot
and someone whose perspective isas fascinating as it is
inspiring.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
We hope you enjoyed the episode.
Don't forget to check out ourPatreon channel for additional

(01:02):
content and subscriber-onlyepisodes.
If you enjoy the podcast,please consider leaving us a
review and, more importantly,sharing it with a friend.
Thank you for your time andremember training changes
behavior.
All right, Well, today, veryspecial show, Greg, We've got
Doug Lauchs on the show.
Doug, I really appreciate youcoming on here, man, it was

(01:22):
great to catch up with you overthe weekend and thank you so
much for gracing us with yourpresence today.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, happy to be here.
That was quite a conversation.
I looked at my phone afterwardsI was like that was an hour and
20 minutes.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
I know, I know, I was like, oh shit, my bad, I had
some stuff I had to do.
I was like to my wife I waslike, yeah, sorry about that.
She's like who are you talkingto?
I was like, long story,remember the guy on netflix that
we saw that I said I knew thatwas him.
So so, speaking of that, uh, Iknow our listeners kind of heard
, heard, heard a little bit ofan intro on you and, um, there's

(01:59):
a ton we could get into.
Obviously it's it's the humanbehavior podcast.
So I I try to keep thingssomewhat somewhat.
Uh, uh, you know, in within that, that ballpark area, but, um,
you know, you got an incrediblecareer in a sense.
You know you're one of the Ithink one of the few case
officers, uh, you know, who'veactually written stuff about

(02:20):
what's been happening over thelast 20 years in the g when
you're at the CIA.
But you were working there.
You did some incredible work inAfghanistan, some incredible
work in Syria.
Just in general, I'm a huge fanof what you've done and what
you've accomplished, and youwrote the book Left of Boom on
your experiences, which is areally cool story for everyone

(02:44):
to check out.
I'll have the links to it inthe details, because it not only
tells some amazing stuff aboutwhat you did and it's heavily
redacted but you can readbetween the lines if you know
anything about the area but italso gives sort of the personal
side of things too to what yourlife was like, which I
fortunately got to see some of,I guess.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
You were going through the book scanning for
your name the entire time.
I'm like please don't tell me.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
I don't know what you're talking about, but but we
, yeah.
So so you know, and then youand I crossed paths a while back
I mean gosh, gosh, I guess itwas over 10 years ago um, time,
time, time flies when you'rewhen you're miserable, I guess.
Um, but we, we cross paths, uh,on some work we were doing and,

(03:36):
um, so you actually had someexposure to, uh, greg's work,
which, which is what it is theHBPR and a human behavior
pattern recognition analysis andstuff.
So you know that kind of how wemet, I guess.
But kind of want to startsomewhere for our audience
because, like I said, there's alot to get into with some of
your work that we did.
And you know it's interestinghow someone like yourself, who

(03:59):
is a no shit, actual caseofficer on the ground, running
sources and doing incrediblework in Afghanistan, like so
much of what you have to do justrelies on human connection and
establishing relationships, notjust with one person,
establishing a network ofrelationships and really like
it's which is exhausting.
Just you know in general to dothat constantly, and so I'm kind

(04:24):
of curious.
We can start wherever you wanton that.
But you know, on some of the,some of the takeaways and things
that you've learned throughoutthat about what it what it takes
to really establish connectionswith people and understand
human behavior, and howinfluential it is, in a sense,
to to what it is that you did inyour role.
But with everything right,technology is one thing, but it

(04:50):
still comes down to a humanbeing and meeting with another
human being and to having aconversation.
Really, I mean so it's kind ofa long-winded intro around
nothing, but I think we just gotto drop everyone in the grease
and get going on theconversation Most gracious intro
.

Speaker 2 (05:04):
Thank you, and Greg, I'm looking forward to speaking
with you as well.
You know, brian and I startedout around the same time 10
years ago and we were bothinstructors for Tier 1 Elements
and I always heard your name andI always heard you were the big
boss.
So it's either.

Speaker 3 (05:22):
Well, the big part is correct.
I mean, if we go by sheerweight, Doug, that is true.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
Yeah, I think slightly, probably.
I was always behind the scenesa little scared like, oh man,
someday I'm going to have tomeet this Greg guy and he's
going to know way more than meand he's going to teach this
course way better than me, ohman.
But uh, yeah, here we are on azoom of types.
So, um, but I'm happy to behere and yeah, brian, you said

(05:49):
it, it was nice, uh, chattingover the weekend.
I haven't talked to you in quitea while yeah probably was 10 or
11 years ago when we started,uh, doing defense contracting.
I can still remember a lot ofit.
So if there's any specificitems you guys want to talk
about, just ask and I'll expand.
I don't really dodge questions,which is again why I don't do

(06:13):
podcasts a whole lot, guys,because I do like this topic and
probably, unfortunately, Idon't think enough people take
it as seriously as really whatit is.
It's kind of just something totalk about, not something

(06:34):
actually do, and it's somethingthat gets trained but not
actually conducted.
And it's a earmark and it's aslip of paper that says you
passed the course but then younever really did it in real life
.
And then you expect to teachthe course 10 or 15 years later,
but you didn't pay attentionwhen you were being taught it

(06:57):
and you didn't do it in reality.
So why are you the instructor?
So I'm sure we can talk aboutthat too.

Speaker 1 (07:06):
But yeah, that's actually a great kind of
starting point too, because youknow you get.
You get certain types oftraining when you go to what
everyone calls the farm, rightat the, at the agency and and
you know a big thing is aboutlike building rapport with
people and you got to do.
But you know a lot of thatisn't really taught how to do

(07:28):
that.
It's just sort of said like hey, you got to build rapport or
methods and techniques andunderstanding.
Like you said, the humanbehavior element is integral to
everything that you do, but it'snot typically what I've seen,
not broken down into a veryusable format.
You still have to go out thereand do it, which I get it.
You have to practice a skillset, but it's like you said,

(07:50):
either it's developed over acareer or a lifetime and then
you have all this sort ofimplicit knowledge of how you do
things, or it's taught in somemanner and you kind of forget it
because you don't really add tothat and people forget how
valuable some of that stuff is.
So I'm kind of curious to seewhat you think of different

(08:11):
training that's worked and thathasn't worked and things that
you've seen work, especiallywhen it comes to the human
behavior element.
We don't have to stay there,you can use whatever experiences
you want, but I know it was sointegral to what you did as a
case officer, like kind of givethe listeners a little bit of an
understanding of what you meanwhen you talk, when you say like
hey, this is like one of themost important things that we
don't really focus on what I wasteaching, or maybe what you and

(08:42):
I were teaching.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yes, it was like I guess what the human behavior
podcast here is the majority ofwhat you speak about is the
human relationship.
You know, I went through eitherat a great time or a pretty
terrible time because the way ofdoing things, by the time I was

(09:04):
ready to do things, werealready set in stone, so it
didn't really matter what youhad learned on your own or how
self-reliable you were.
It was set in stone.
And what they were going totrain you at, our training at
the farm was kind of alreadymolded out, because we were in

(09:26):
the eighth or ninth year of thewar by that time, and so this is
what has worked in the past.
So we're going to hope itcontinues to and this is what
we're going to do for the nextdecade.
And you know, just even gettingout of that training, which is
top notch, it really is, and Ilearned a ton and it had changed
you as a person.
And you know, just even gettingout of that training, which is

(09:46):
top notch, it really is, yeah,and I learned a ton and it
changed you as a person, but itstill even then felt antiquated
if it were a year old, if thatmakes sense to you guys.
You know like things havechanged so drastically.
This isn't 1973 Moscow.
This isn't 1973 Moscow.

(10:10):
So no offense to you if you'vedone that and you did a brush
pass in St Petersburg.
How do I get to the point Idon't care, I'm going to
Kandahar.
We don't do that there, so Idon't care.
And then the other question wasis there any through line or any
similarities to just doing thejob as a whole, meaning
espionage?
Like yeah, I want to go to thewar zones and I want to go to
the Middle East.

(10:31):
So why are my instructorstalking to me about what they
did in Beijing?
And again, just out offrustration, not anger, because
I'm still very appreciative ofwhat I learned and was taught.
But you do get the mentality ofwho effing cares, like I don't
care, like I don't have time forthat man, like tell me what

(10:52):
it's going to be to talk to adude in the Taliban.
And reason I bring up thatexample and I'd said at the
beginning either it was for thebest or worst is because at
least there was something tobuild upon and a lot of people
were focused on it, uh, thatthat was helpful, which then
made me wonder, well, what thehell kind of training are the

(11:15):
people who are actually going topatient and getting?
And are they getting the samestuff I'm getting from the guy
from 1973?
Because even that same city,great, different population,
yeah, the same people, differentgovernment in fact.
So, like I feel it probably islike that.

(11:36):
Still, you guys would knowbetter than me.
I got out of, uh, pretty muchdoing everything government
related six or seven years ago.
But here we are.
I guess the perfect ending herefor me to stop talking is I was
in charge of the Syrian programa decade ago.
I know what we were doingbecause I was the one deciding

(11:59):
what we were going to do and wedid nothing.
I won't go much further thanthat.
I can write about it, but, uh,as of like yesterday, it's a
totally different scenario.
So where are you training those, those kids who are, you know,
going to go in the field?
Because I was taught one thingwe did nothing.
Did you teach them something Ididn't know about?

(12:21):
And that whole situation insyria right now is so bizarre to
me I can't even fathom whatreally happened, because you
know, I know that the dictatordidn't just step to the side.
No, no, yeah, I won't.
I won't go into that.
I'm not trying to talk aboutthat specifically at all, but

(12:42):
you know and it will.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
It's topical and relevant, and I know this is the
other thing, I guess, because Iwant to give you, have you kind
of explain a little bit to ourlisteners, like what a case
officer actually does and whatyour job is, versus because
there's still a lot of not greatinformation out there about
this stuff, which rightly, Imean in the sense that, like you
know, how are you going to findout what people really do?

(13:08):
You know, and there's a lot ofpeople that are out there are
talking heads and you know maybethey were a great analyst or
something like that, but theydidn't really do some of the
groundwork or they wereadministrator and they were high
up somewhere, and that's kindof a completely different role
from what you did on the groundas a case officer.
So, and and again, you know too, just so I don't want you to
get anything that you don't wantto talk about, because there's
different reasons, notnecessarily that it's like, hey,

(13:31):
this thing's still classifiedor we still can't talk about it.
It's more, just, there's stillpeople that don't like to have
people talking about things andthey get angry and they get
upset and they're still inpositions of power.
So I'll leave it at that.
But but can you?
Can you give for our audiencejust like a basic understanding
of what you were doing when youwere in Afghanistan, or because

(13:52):
you read a lot about it and lefta boom?

Speaker 2 (13:59):
It's an incredible book, but give everyone a kind
of an understanding of what itis that you do and what a case
officer you know that's who'sdesignated to recruit spies for
the US government.
That really is what it is, andkudos to the agency because they
do put that online.
I don't know why the searchingstops there when you can find
out my pant size online somehowthrough somebody who wrote about

(14:23):
it 20 years ago, is onlinesomehow through somebody who
wrote about it 20 years ago.
But you know, I'll even havepeople ask me questions on
Reddit or Instagram or whatever.
Hey, you know, I want to be asuper spy too, or blah, blah,
blah.
You get to asking.
Well, so you want to be a caseofficer, and they don't know
what I'm talking about.
And or I'll reference uh, I'm acase officer, or somebody

(14:45):
introduced me as such, becausethat's the title of my book, and
I'll find that even the personintroducing me doesn't really
know what that title means.
And you know, for us who dounderstand is kind of the same
thing as going oh, he was an 11,bravo.
The three of us know whatyou're talking about, but a

(15:06):
civilian might not, and so Ikind of think that's
unfortunately the same way it iswith the agency at least, is no
one's ever typed in 11 Bravo tofigure out what that meant in
English.
No one's ever really followedup with case officer or they saw
what it was and like oh yeah,no one's ever really followed up

(15:38):
with case officer or they sawwhat it wasn't, like oh yeah,
and kind of just dismissed it.
Because you know, I wrote thatbook, started writing it 10, 11
years ago and no one knew whatit meant and especially no one
knew what the called left ofbang.
Just FYI, their manual is leftof bang.
I didn't want to like fabricateand take that straight from
them and was like that's cleverLeft of bang.
I like that.
I'm going to call this bookleft of boom.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
Now I see, like tech, he's holding conferences in San
Franciscoisco the left of boomconference okay, so real quick
on that, that was san diego andwe were at that conference one
year sitting in the room.
Let me get this.
So guess what they werereferencing.
So before the army had it doug,it was with the marine corps

(16:18):
and the marine corps combathunter program.
They called lots of bang and soafter talking about it, I had
to go up to the guy who was likeone of the leaders of the
conference to be like do you seethe gentleman right there and
who's going to speak later today, who says mr greg williams?
They're like yeah, I'm like, hewrote the combat hunter program
that you're all talking aboutand he had no idea.
This guy had no idea, which Ialways tell greg like that's a

(16:40):
testament to your work, meaningit's, it's, it's gone on so far
exactly that.
People don't even know where itcame from, so like.
But he's like sitting in theroom going like are they gonna
introduce me now or something?
I thought I was speaking later,yeah well then, this is funny
actually greg.

Speaker 3 (16:57):
Yeah, when your book came out.
Doug, if I might interruptbriefly, when your book came out
it spawned one of the biggestarguments because we were
talking about the term left, thebank, which was later stolen by
everybody as well.
So you know you're ontosomething good and it was very,
very well respected, doug, thatyou chose left, the boom Cause

(17:18):
you, you were talking aboutsomething completely different,
but you were talking to a bunchof operators that actually knew
and had similar experiences,right.
So it was much the same as thefight with the Marine Corps war
fighting lab, using a termatmospherics, and they go no,
that's the air trapped aroundthe earth, and it's like, no,
that's how you read a room.
And so we got into a fight andyour book was the center point

(17:40):
of that fight.
So I hope there was a spike inin I guess that would have been
2006 for your book sales.
And and uh, very briefly, brian,talking about that, I want Doug
to get back to his point.
Doug is talking about a periodof time during glow, what money?
Where anything went and andwhat happened is.
Back then you had the, thesniper manual that hadn't been
updated since Vietnam in thefall of.

(18:03):
Saigon, you had QAQC folksshowing up to me on a range and
going you can't teach that waybecause it's never been done
that way before.
You had KOCAL, the Center forAdvanced Operational Culture and
Learning that I butted headswith in 2006, where they go.
No, it's much better to teachthese people snippets of the
language because we're going totalk about culture and prepare

(18:25):
them for missions.
And then they had so manydifferent set of standards that
there was nobody.
When I went to JBAT, it waslike the person you were talking
to is likely going to be fromAmerica, sent there to work
there, rather than somebody thatwas local, and we'd ask can we
interview a local?
And they go well, fuck, no,that's out there.
We're not going out there.
You remember those?

Speaker 2 (18:45):
days so.

Speaker 3 (18:46):
I want to make sure that when people put in context
who Doug is, that theyunderstand the operational
constraints that you had whenyou were working, literally
swinging 16 ounce gloves in anarena.

Speaker 2 (19:01):
Nobody had fought uh, uh in in a long time.
Yeah, no, I appreciate that.
Thanks for telling me that.
Sad to say, I'm not surprised,you know, because it's not the
first and it's not just withtech or other government, you
know, expos or whatever.
I think I saw somebody.
Well, I saw a couple of TVshows have their sitcom, like

(19:24):
that episode name left of boom.
There's some silly show on CBSit's called Navy Seals come home
or whatever the fuck it'scalled, and their final episode
was called Left of Boom.
And yes, it was.
Somebody in comments goes hey,marine, hey, marine here.

(19:45):
So brian, you like it.
He goes, uh, hey, marine here.
Uh, don't you think it's kindof weird that this is your last
and final episode?
Yeah, you're calling it left ofboom.
Shouldn't this have been thefirst episode?
No one responds and like therewas no, nothing funny, I'm sure.
Like I clicked the heart like12 times, which meant six times.

(20:09):
I unliked it and I'm likeliking things works just once is
enough, and uh, but yeah, I waslike that guy's got a great
point.
It should have been episode one.
But now that phrase has kind ofbeen a throwaway term and I
don't use it to like promote mybook other than to say it's just
another example of somethingthat is now hearsay.

(20:33):
To teach Brian, uh, kind of now, is just something that is
talked about and maybe it'sstill taught to a degree.
Um, but you know, I havefriends who have just kind of

(20:54):
gotten into it and it's sodifferent, I get it, the war's
over and all of that.
But this type of training, whenyou really think about it, it
doesn't have to be used forespionage.
It can be used in real worldeveryday life.
As a civilian every day.
And, yeah, you can become aterrible person with this type

(21:16):
of knowledge or you can try anddo something good.
And one of the greatest quotesI heard is from, like, jalen
Rose, a basketball player.
He's talking about MichaelJordan and he's like this guy is
so intense and was so greatthat if he wasn't the best
basketball player in the world,fine, he would have been the

(21:38):
world's best serial killer.
Like anything I put his mind to.
He's going to destroy and he'sgoing to be the best and that's
why he was good.
So, um, yeah, left of boom asit stands now.
Uh, I used to want to emailthese people and be like, hey,
do you want a keynote speaker?
You know like I'll sell my book.

(22:00):
And now I'm just like oh,whatever, can this be another
final episode of seals crying atyou and they'll bring you a
cake.

Speaker 3 (22:12):
They'll they'll have you on at the reunion episode
and bring you a cake and haveyou blow out the candles.
You see, that's that's exactlythe argument, doug, first of all
, and, and brian, uh, I, I'dlove to know how you and Doug
met and hit it off, because Ionly heard and then read your
white paper that you wrote on it, doug.
But that's exactly the point,doug, when you start going back

(22:33):
and uncovering facts, whichreally screws with people's
stories, and you see how longyou've been in the game.
That's the problem, becausewhen you see the other people
that are coming up with thesegreat ideas and you look and
they go well in 2015 or 2018,it's like we were in a game long
before that.
So you better go back a littlebit when you look at it.
Would you mind giving us sortof a glimpse at how you and the

(22:58):
0-3-11 in the room Marines usethe 11 Bravo as 0-3-11,?
So I just want to throw a goodanswer the cranny in the room,
the Marines used their 11 Bravoas 0-3-11, so I just want to
throw a good answer.
The cranny in the room.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
How did you guys?

Speaker 3 (23:10):
link up.
How did you meet and how didyou not kill each other the
first time you met?

Speaker 2 (23:17):
Yeah, go ahead no actually.

Speaker 1 (23:20):
I think it'd be better for the listeners to hear
your side of events, because Ithink it'd be funny for the
listeners to hear your side ofevents, because I think it'd be
funny.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
Well, I can make it funny.
I'll be more complimentary.
Your podcast, not mine.
I think I said it when we spokeover the weekend, which again
had been probably a decade sincewe had talked, and I said, hey,
I won't say where, don't worry,since we had talked.

(23:47):
And I said, hey, you, I won'tsay where, don't worry, but we
both got assigned to a militarybase to teach it.
I don't know, do you stillteach that course, that place
that we were talking about inthe south?

Speaker 1 (23:55):
no, no, it's um, we, we, we still teach and train
stuff.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
So it's evolved since then and obviously we're on our
own, not with that previousorganization, right well, but
yeah so the previous contractorhad both of our names on file
and hired us both on asinstructors and I had been doing
it for about a year and a halfafter I had left the agency,

(24:20):
almost exclusively with jsoc outof Tampa Right, and kind of
covering I don't know what youwant to say their operations,
almost like an auditor it was.
I don't know, I didn't reallyenjoy it.
But then I went and taught thatcourse with Brian and there was

(24:42):
, as I said, a slew of guysthere were like four or five of
you guys and I was like who, whoare they Like?
Where did you get them?
Because no, for real, everyoneI had met before had been the
same like structured kind of guy, like it was.
You had to be that.
So they wanted a chief ofstation which is a boss in CIA

(25:07):
terms, the guy who's in chargeof that country espionage.
They wanted a chief of stationwho had 20 plus years and that
was about it.
That was pretty much the credsthat they wanted.
And then, you know, I was thisguy with only seven years
officially working for theagency.
So I was out of place.

(25:27):
But then I saw Brian and likethree or four other guys who the
same company had hired, and Iwas like, well, they got to feel
out of place too.
So I don't even think Brian andI I don't think we were
teaching like the same group ofstudents at the time.
I was with um, you know who,who we spoke about our names and
and, um, we just startedtalking and I was like, man, I

(25:52):
want to work on your guys's teamand do more stuff with you
because, number one, let's behonest, you, you guys, were my
age and, like you, had seen thesame stuff.
I had seen and had been to thesame places.
And finally, I was hearingsomebody teach a course, not
about Beijing and not aboutMoscow, because that was

(26:13):
apparently all the agency hadever done, because that's all
their instructors talked about.
But that's what they were toldto talk about, because, for some
, some reason, whoever was incharge 0506 had decided this is
the important stuff that's goingto impress our students.
Tell them about how you were aspy, you know, in the cold war.

(26:36):
I'm like how about you getsomebody who says I just came
back from kandahar and it's hotanyway and go with that, you
know, because it's not the samething, uh, but yeah, that's how
you and I met Brian and then wejust started getting assigned to
similar contracts withoutknowing it.
We, you know, we were talkingabout what the score was in a

(26:59):
football game on a Sunday.
And then Monday she'll be likeoh, you're on this one too nice,
yeah.
And we didn't really.
I don't know why.
We just we were just in adifferent place, we were younger
and didn't really care what wewhere, we were going on Monday,
uh.
But yeah, I think I came acrosscourses with you for a matter

(27:19):
of two years at least, uh,before I stopped and, you know,
wrote, yeah, but um, yeah, thatthat was um the best, uh a most
flattering, uh a description ofus linking up at that place,
that that you could that's theone that's going to go on record

(27:41):
.

Speaker 3 (27:42):
Well, I'll say that the heavily redacted version
exactly so I have my blackmarker ready.
It's funny when you meet theagency guys nobody has a
highlighter unless it's blackyeah, but they don't use it
anyway, because they're notexactly.
None of them can write like themarines.
Now that's.
That was nice.

(28:03):
The idea is, what I likedspecifically is that you guys
used what you were taught andincluded your creative spirit
and personal experiences, andthat's what came across and
that's why the training worked,because you can go to the spy

(28:24):
museum in Washington DC andlearn everything you want to
know about China and the ColdWar on a tour that you guide
yourself and just plug in a keyand listen and history is
fascinating.
But that doesn't make you abetter case agent.
That doesn't help you develophuman sources.
Merely language is not enoughto befriend somebody and get

(28:44):
them to work for you as aconfidential informant and and
you know it's it's not thatdifferent.
War is very different, but copwork is like being deployed
every day for your entire career, right, something like that.
Or Rico, or uh, uh, you know,uh, osf caper as a cop, uh was

(29:04):
what really uh prepared me thatin the military for doing the
work that I did, and it wasdifferent at the time only
because it wasn't that lockstep.
This is the way you do things,the check in the box training,
and so I love the fact that whenthey briefed me on that place
that you were going.
They said hey, send a couple ofyour best guys.
This is going to betransformational and I think

(29:25):
your work and the work thatBrian did really were key to
making that transformation.

Speaker 2 (29:31):
Nice Thanks.
I appreciate you saying that.
I could tell too.
You know, as an instructorBrian and I were talking about
this on the weekend I get it,it's a way to make money and it
can be a career.
But come on, man, if you reallyjust don't care and you're just
doing it as a job, go dosomething else for real, because

(29:57):
your job's important.
It's really, really importantwhen you're at this type of
level, talking about these typesof operations, that very few
people are even cleared to do,not that they can or can't do,
they're not allowed to do,they're not allowed to even know
about.
So when you're talking aboutsomething that obviously the

(30:18):
government thinks is soimportant, they make it that
secret then if you have theprivilege of being the
instructor and teaching thatcourse, man, if you're not
taking it seriously, you know,you expect these guys to and you
guys know I mean the studentsthat I'm sure you guys have now
if they're anywhere close to theoperators that I was teaching

(30:42):
that you got about three secondsand that lasts the course.
And if you're dicking off andpretend land for three seconds
or you're faking the funk, whichthey're going to know
immediately, you're, you're doneand you know.
That's why, too, eventually,right at towards the end of my
defense time, I was allowed topick who I was going to teach

(31:07):
courses with, because the personwho was assigning me as an
instructor and I got along realwell.
And they would ask me, hey, isthere anybody in particular?
And I was like, let me see whoyou got.
And uh, you know, there werepeople on there that I had
worked with before and I waslike, okay, who are we teaching?
Okay, oh, 372s.

(31:27):
Uh, yeah, they don't reallywant to talk about belarus, so
why, like, what do you?
That's not where they're going,so it just doesn't make sense.
Uh, anyway, I'm sure I couldbitch about that stuff Time, but
anything specific about, yeah,whatever you guys.

Speaker 1 (31:50):
Well, I kind of kind of want to get into a little bit
about your, your work inAfghanistan, because you did.
You know, I mean you took downsome pretty big IED networks and
did a whole bunch of amazingstuff and you know you were kind
of a younger dude doing it all.
And what people don't know toois when you're, you know you're

(32:10):
at CIA, like you have a lot ofautonomy, you have a ton of like
what you like you kind of makeyour own path, make your own
mission.
In a sense, like you saw thereport still have these
directives and things like that,but but meaning you have a lot
of freedom to go.
This is what we're going to doand this is how we can do this.
And but I'm curious, man causeyou, you know, you I think you

(32:32):
speak or spoke PASH to um andyou know kind of had to work
with these folks and get to knowthem.
So what you know can, can youwalk us through sort of that
process and how it worked andwhat you had to do to get in
with people and establishrelationships and then build in
a network that allowed you totake down some really, really
big stuff that was killing a lotof US troops.

(32:54):
I mean, that's the thing.
It's like these are bad dudesand they're getting a lot of
this, but meaning you had to go.
You had to go to these meetings.
You had to talk to people, talkto village elders, talk to
random people Like, how did youdo that, especially growing up?
You're a Midwestern guy, I'mfrom the Midwest, so is Greg.
You go there and I know you getall the training and you get
language training.
You have some experience, butit's such a different world in a

(33:18):
sense.
So how did you find that way toassimilate and build those
relationships?
What worked for you?

Speaker 2 (33:26):
uh, well, I would say that's something most relevant
to what you guys are doing rightnow.
Uh, and something you can'tforget the agency is still part
of the federal government so itstill has all the federal
restrictions it.
It's not quite as restrictive asthe military can be, especially

(33:48):
when it comes to rules andplaying by them and enforcing
them.
And you guys knew I was goingto be honest when I came on here
, so I won't disguise if I founda problem with some things.
But one thing I certainlynoticed more than anything, both
in the field and as aninstructor, was how well and how

(34:12):
much the military students dofollow the rules, but almost to
a flaw.
And I get it.
The rules are there for areason and they're to protect
you and others and so on and soforth.
But there comes a time whereeverybody's different and this
person's different and theydon't fall within those
guidelines, they fall outside ofeverything you've ever seen or

(34:34):
heard, because no one has evermet anyone like that before and
no one has taken the time towrite about that type of
individual before.
So you have no background, youhave no manual, you have no book
on how to talk about that typeof individual before.
So you have no background, youhave no manual, you have no book
on how to talk to that type ofguy.
Well, again, this is personalexperience only because I don't

(34:55):
want to dismiss anybody fordoing the work.
I found that if it wasn'tsomething that had been done in
the past especially withmilitary guys I was working with
from different elements theyjust did not want to touch it.
Not that they didn't care,because they cared a lot, but it
was like, yeah, we don't,that's, that's your bag.

(35:16):
It was always like that's, theCIA can do that, and I'm like,
no, but that's what you do for aliving.
You do that every night.
This is just a different nameand a different location.
And it was like we don't wantto, we don't want to even know
about it, because there were noguidelines.
No one had said, yes, this ishow you do that.
And so for me, that was kind ofthe same thing.

(35:38):
And again, just through what Iwent through I don't know how
the other case officers had it,but I did tour the entire
country and been to most of thebases because I did speak the
language and there was no manualprior.
There's nothing to reference,so we're not going to do it.
There was no think for yourselfdo what you think's right.

(36:14):
You be the guy who writes howto do it then, but you have to
be the first to do it.
That's like anything in life.
That can be business, that canbe a relationship, that can be
field work, espionage totallydifferent level but I feel that
both case officers and guys indifferent elements with the
military conducting espionage orwhatsoever shied away is

(36:36):
putting it lightly from beingthe first to do anything.
Because of my career I won't getpromoted, you know, as a case
officer on the GS scale, or Iwon't get a higher rank, or I'll
get demoted, or I'll getdisciplined.
And yeah, you don't want to bea rule breaker, you don't just
want to go full auto and runinto a room Like duh.

(36:56):
But there comes a time whereyou have to go.
Well, there's nothing there.
There's nothing that says I can, but there's nothing that says
I can but there's nothing thatsays I can't.
So now is the time to determinedo I take the risk?
Because it doesn't say I can,it doesn't say I can't, so I'm
going to do it.

(37:17):
And if I complete it and do itwell, they'll go.
We always knew you could do that.
And now that is how it's done.
Write it up and that's howeveryone.
That is how it's done, write itup and that's how everyone else
would do it.
But if you F up, it will not bewritten about.
And again, this is just myexperience in agency.
That's going to go eyes onlybecause you F'd up.

(37:38):
So very, very few people, ahandful of people, are going to
see it that it ever evenhappened and you're going to get
put on the bench.
Well, as a case officer, knowingthose are the repercussions of
me sitting here with there is nocan, there is no can't.
Should I do it?
If I don't do it, I canprobably still get promoted and

(38:02):
I won't have to sit on the bench.
There's nothing else here.
This is just well.
If you fail, you're going tojail, but if you complete it, it
could be good.
If you don't, it's here.
So I'll just not do anythingand keep towing the line.
I don't know if it's still thatway.
I was doing this 10 years ago.
I know I sound like a brokenrecord continuing to repeat that

(38:25):
, but anyone who's maybe fastforwarded on me in the past
hears me continuously say it,because what I always hated was
when somebody, again from 1973,was telling me this is how it's
done.
No, that's how it was done.
So that's how it was done forme.
I don't know if that's stillhow it is done, but that was a

(38:47):
serious problem and a seriousissue for me, not having
anything in my background andkind of not wanting to be the
guy to create it.
The book that I wrote is allabout me creating it.
That's essentially.

Speaker 3 (39:04):
Doug, if I can jump in for a second here.
You're a fascinating guy andyou have to understand because
you don't sometimes how rare youactually are, because the and
I'll tell you a story.
So this will exemplify exactlywhat I mean.
When people dial 911, theythink the cop that's showing up

(39:24):
was an extra in the movie Heat.
They think that he's flippedthe tires, fired full auto, all
X-ring shot group stuff, been onthe gosh damn bubble his entire
career.
And that's not true and we'veworked.
There's not been an alphabetagency in our country where any
of the MOI or MODs from othercountries that I've worked with
that was that guy.
They're so rare that when youmeet them you know you're in the

(39:47):
presence of somebody that's anoperator that's different than
everybody else, and so acountless FBI agents they're on
the glass with and you look atthem and you go what?
And you're going wait a minute,I thought you were trained by
the FBI or other agencies orwhatever.
And so I developed this horrorstory mentality because I was
constantly looking for that guy.

(40:08):
Who is this guy?
Who is the one that's behindthe curtains pulling the levers?
There is no Oz right, and whathappens is when you do find them
.
When you find them in Iraq orAfghanistan or anywhere else in
the world, you cherish them andthen you build a relationship
with that person that lasts alifetime, because you know that
they're the doer, they're notjust the talker, they're not
just the person that's gettingpromoted through the ranks and

(40:31):
everything that.
Brian told me about you andthen when I read and then when I
asked people about it andeverything else, you were that
guy.
So the cool thing is thatyou're in a rare group that was
on a bench that was continuouslyput in to play the game and not
a lot of people do that, eventhough they have credentials.
I know a lot of people that hadcombat time and they never left

(40:53):
a FOB and thank God they werethere because they volunteered
for their service and thank Godthey were a member of that.
But you know what, sometimesthose credentials stretched a
little thin, because now the waris over and now some of those
people are dead.
So we can talk about anything wewant, but we devoted ourselves
to make sure that that fieldcraft lives on.

(41:14):
It's not about me or my name orBrian or his name or the
Arcadia brand.
The idea is we have a certainset of skills that you can
develop that help interpersonalrelationships anywhere in the
world.
And if you can talk to somebody, if I can kneel down, sit down,
squat down with you and we cantalk about something common for
just a few minutes.

(41:34):
It's amazing how many doorsthat opens, but you got to see
that in the most extremeenvironments on the face of the
planet.
So so tell us about that.
Tell us how you were able toapply not just the training from
the farm and all that otherstuff, but your intrinsic
knowledge about humans.
How did you co-opt that?

Speaker 2 (41:55):
Yeah, well, in that regard, I would say it
definitely took time.
I won't lie on that.
The first place I was sent towas on a six-month tour and it
probably took me three or fourmonths to really get the gist of
what was going on, which, bythe way, is still moving pretty

(42:18):
fast.
Yes, get the gist of what wasgoing on, which, by the way, is
still moving pretty fast.
Yes, let us not forgetafghanistan's, a totally
different country than theunited states.
Okay, like, there's a lot ofgetting used to, and just
because you speak the language,it does not mean shit.
Okay, so, and I was taught thewrong dialect, so I had to
relearn that, which was fun, um,but relearn that, which was fun

(42:43):
, um, but realizing all thedifferences, okay, sure,
probably, even after that firstsix month rip, I still didn't
necessarily and admittedly now,know what was going on.
Okay, with the people and thefolks that I had talked to at my
first assignment, uh, I thoughtwere important Because, again,
there was nothing to tell methey were or they weren't,
nobody else was meeting them.

(43:04):
So maybe this guy is or heisn't, and I expected my
authorities to tell me continueto meet that guy, recruit that
guy or that guy isn't shit, dumphim.
But nobody was really sayinganything and it was very wide
open.
And so I think, after thatfirst tour coming home and now

(43:30):
I'm with my girlfriend and mybuddies and civilians and I'm
like you know, in reality it'snot about the differences, it's
about what's the same Greatcomment, the same shit that I
just did to get my buddy here toget me another beer.
Actually, not minus.

(43:53):
That beer is what I could bedoing with that guy, that Talib.
Hey, you know, I'm going to trythat when I get back on my next
assignment.
So, kind of seeing thosedifferences and realizing, yeah,
but they're still humans, youknow, like not to get scientific
, but you know their brainsstill operate the same way.

(44:15):
They obviously thinkdifferently, but they still
manufacture the same in the sameway.
They obviously thinkdifferently but they still
manufacture the same and thesame direction.
And so it was okay.
This is just now inserting theproper word and substituting it
for what I would have said to anAmerican friend.
Into now, this guy is my friendand what is it the thing that

(44:37):
he likes?
Just enter that in.
My buddy wants another beer.
This guy wants what?
Put it right there.
Figure out what that is, thathe wants.
Everybody wants something.
Okay, probably money, great,we've all heard that.
But I think it was just thesimilarities of realizing okay,

(44:59):
either he's happy or he's sad,he's excited or he's scared.
That's it.
It's one of the four that'sgoing to be your basis of any
emotion.
So which is it?
You know, it's the same thing Ido with my girlfriend Is she
happy or is she mad right now,like what's going on, you know
just yeah, but you'll neverunderstand that.

(45:23):
There's no amount of trainingand awards on.
That'll prepare you for thattype of relationship.

Speaker 3 (45:25):
So you're still working those steps.
Yeah, I didn't want to callbullshit on that for anybody
that thinks yeah right yeah, I'dbe harnessing the emperor title
.
If I knew that's great.

Speaker 2 (45:37):
But no, in conclusion , like it was the similarities
in that this guy and you gettaught a lot of what I'm saying.
Like you got to find out whatthey want.
You got to know what makes themtick.
I get all of that but also howI make you understand that I

(45:58):
know that's what you want and ifit is just money, not make you
feel uncomfortable about it.
We probably the three of ushave had friends in the past who
maybe kind of, were asking forsomething more than we wanted to
give.
Probably we're talking aboutmoney and you know you can tell
they're asking something that'smaking them uncomfortable to ask

(46:20):
.
So now, what can I do to showthis foreigner, this Afghan, my
confidence in asking him to dothis thing?
Well, he's got to think he's myfriend and I got to portray
that, even if I think he's apiece of crap.
And how did I do it with mybuddy to get another beer?

(46:42):
Well, I'm going to utilize thatand I made that guy happy.
Need to make this guy happy.
Insert what he wants were doingin the 13th century.
I looked at it and said this is2011.

(47:02):
This guy sees the samecommercials I get.
He gets indian tv, which isbritish tv, which is the same
television that I get.
I know he knows what I know asfar as pop culture and stuff.
It doesn't matter that he's inthe taliban, he still has a tv.
And you learn that and you'relike whoa the?
The Taliban has TVs.
Yes, they do.
Okay.
And so then just seeing thingslike that and opening your eyes

(47:24):
and going it's not that hard, itjust took the patience and the
time to learn.
This guy is still a human andhe still wants something and
needs something and, for betteror worse, if it's money, brother
, I will not hesitate and I willbe confident when I present
that to you, because I got aprinting press back there and I

(47:46):
will get you what you need ifyou deserve it.
But yeah, that's kind of howjust with my time in Afghanistan
went much different in Syria,much different in Syria.
But building thoserelationships, I'm sure you guys
teach the finer points of howyou do that, but it was looking

(48:06):
at it the same way.
I'm going to treat this guyexactly like I treat Austin, my
buddy.
That's so good, and he's goingto feel like he's Austin and
we're about to watch the movieHeat together.
Yeah, that's so much.
Which you referenced thatearlier.
That's one of my favorites.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
And you know a lot of people like they think we give
some principles, like to startout at one of our training, like
a training course, right?
So we just did like a three-dayone with law enforcement back
in your old stomping grounds outback in Indiana, literally last
course, right, so we just didlike a three-day one with law
enforcement back in your oldstomping ground south back in
Indiana, literally last week,right.
And so you know, when we go,you know one of our first

(48:47):
principles we go.
People are the same all overthe world and you know we give
examples and go.
This is what you mean.
You know, everywhere you go,people play games.
You know you turn into anasshole when you're a teenager.
You know you, you you're sadwhen someone dies.
Or you know you wear white to awedding, like there's just
these, and people kind of goyeah, okay, I get it, it's like
no.
And then the follow-up, the sowhat to?

(49:08):
That is actually what you said,is the.
So you know, look for thesimilarities, not the
differences.
And everyone's like, okay, yeah, I get it, it's no, you have to
go out there and practice it.
That you know that chud, whowakes up at the crack of noon
every day that you deal with,like it's the same thing and
it's even at a simpler level, sodon't overcomplicate it.

(49:30):
And because everyone's got ajob, a mission, a role, what
responsibilities, what they'resupposed to do, it's we get so
focused on our tactics,techniques and procedures, what
these policies are, what I'mhere to do, it's like take a
minute right, figure out what'sgoing on where this person's at,
and and and see you know what,what you can do and connect at a
human level, cause the rest ofthat stuff you can learn how to

(49:56):
do.
In the rest of the stuff, withtime it'll, it'll happen, but
we're not focusing on just thebasic elements of what's
happening.
What is the dynamic here, inthis situation, at this time,
right now?
Which is also why we miss huge,huge pre-event indicators.
We miss everything becausewe're so mission focused, we're
trying to get done what we needto do.
And then it's like yeah, butthe world and the situation,
this person is screaming at youright now and you're missing

(50:19):
everything because you didn'tjust follow some basic
principles of hey, people thesame all over the world, let's
look for the similarities, notthe differences.
And then because because ifthere are differences, then
they're going to stand out evenmore.
Right, if you go, wait a minute,this isn't the same situation.
This isn't just a guy trying tomake a buck.
Oh shit, I might be in troubleright now or I might have put

(51:03):
myself in a bad situation.
You can miss those thingsbecause you're not kind of
sticking to those basic concepts.
You're like all right, am I?
I think, because we're sort ofprimed as that.
Like well, they got a differenttribal structure and they wear
different clothes and adifferent religion and a
different this.
It's like yeah but the abrahamicreligions are kind of similar.
So there's that, like you know,uh sure they don't wear the
same clothes, but in in someways that may.
But we, there's that, like youknow, uh sure they don't wear
the same clothes, but in in someways that may.
But we used to here, like youknow, a hundred years ago, you

(51:25):
go out and you go to a businesseveryone's wearing a suit and
it's almost the same exact onewith okay, you might have a
little bit different feather inyour cap, but you're wearing the
same thing.
You got a different colorpocket square, but everyone's
wearing that same thing.
You got a different colorpocket square, but everyone's
wearing that same thing.
So it wasn't always thatdifferent.
And so when you come down tothose basic elements of human

(51:46):
behavior and just how the worldoperates, it makes it easier to
understand if you understand thebasic fundamental rules.
We bring up stuff about physicssometimes because it's not to
show like, oh, look at all thisstuff going on, or look at how
many different scientific wordsI know.
It's like, look, there'sunderlying rules to everything

(52:08):
and if you're breaking thoserules, you're never going to get
done.
Or you don't recognize whatthose underlying rules are,
you're never going to see thesituation for what it is, and
that's kind of what we try toget people to do, but without
that, um, sort of thoseexperiences where you've
actually been able to do that inthose places that allowed you
access to people and now anetwork and now you're able to

(52:29):
do some amazing stuff.
If you don't see that, I thinka lot of times it's hard for
people to really look at theworld that way.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 3 (52:37):
you know what I'm saying and and I would say I
thought you're coming in there-doug I I I think that you again
elevated yourself to a very uhsmall, what I would call an
elite group of folks, becauseevery time I hear somebody that
says, hey, wait a minute, let'slook for the similarities,
rather the differences, Iimmediately uh fall in love with

(52:59):
them.
Uh, because that's exactly howthis gets done.
And you know, we've all seen acar where you drive it from the
right side rather than the leftside, and we've all been in
countries where they drive onthe left side of the road rather
than the right side of the road.
But when it comes down to thescience, it's an internal
combustion engine and we get it,and there's a gas tank and we
know how to fill it.

(53:19):
And there's a gas tank and weknow how to fill it.
And there's a gear select andwe figured that out in the
ignition.
Maybe you press the floor ormaybe you press a button, but
it's the same thing.
And so when we look at like,very briefly, last week I told
the story of Spin Boldak, whereI knelt down to talk to a girl
we were looking for propanebombs and she spoke fluent
English.
And I looked at her and I saidhow is it that you speak fluent

(53:40):
English and she goes the Britswere here for 15 years, mate and
I go oh my God, that's amazingand she schooled me right.
But you, as a case officer onthe ground, had to understand,
just like you did in yourrelationship and with your own
family, that our vulnerabilitiesdefine us.

(54:05):
And when you open up the trustgate and start speaking to
people even though you had anulterior motive because it was
your job to befriend thesepeople there were times that you
forgot that and were a friend,which what I mean by that is
like if you can't truly want totrust me and be my buddy, I
can't be an effective guy,because it's just like being a
gigolo.
Yeah, I'm going to say thesethree things to get laid every
time and buy you this and that,and after a while it's going to
get around that you're the barwhore, I got it.

(54:26):
So that works when you'retrying to build a confidential
informant as well.
So there were times that youhad to let down your guard to
let them know a little bit aboutyou so you could find out more
about them and be able toexploit that.
Could you elaborate on that alittle bit, because I'm sure you
had that experience many times.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
Oh, yeah, and look, I think I said it in the book,
I'll say it now.
There were assets that I hadwho were in the Taliban, that,
however you want to cut this upand dice it, that I did care
about meaning and you can go.
How could you care aboutterrorists?

(55:06):
Uh, I didn't want to see theguy die, you know.
And he flipped and he realizedwhat he had been doing was wrong
.
And now he was working for theU S government, he signed the
paperwork and he was turningover his old organization for me
because he trusted me.
So, yeah, I mean, it's hard tosay no, I could never possibly

(55:27):
care about anyone like that.
No, I did.
And there were several guys who,like I, wanted to protect them
and I didn't want to just leavethem, you know, and pop smoke.
Well, hey, thanks for what youdid.
Now go back to your village by,you know.
So that's tough.
Uh, and to some of those guys,yeah, to get them to tell me the

(55:49):
most important stuff, sometimesthey needed to at least be told
something about me, whether itwas true or not.
And if it wasn't, you got to becareful with that, because
unless you're a really good liarand can tell a story, it's
going to come across phony, andthey're going to see it and be
like this guy's a hack, here wego again.

(56:11):
So I probably wouldn'trecommend that If you're going
to tell somebody somethingsignificant about you that's
private, well, they better haveearned it, or you're just kind
of giving it away for free.
So, yeah, anytime that I got tothat level, though, it really

(56:31):
made me reevaluate therelationship both internally
between me and that other personand as well as what I was
writing, because whatever Iwrote in cable traffic is really
what happened.
It's not what really happened.
What really happened, becausethat's what I said happened and
I was the only one there.
So that's what everyone's goingto read.

(56:53):
That that's how this went down,and you know that's this whole
bag of hammers too.
What do I write?
What's going to get me introuble?
How do I stay out of this?
How do I advance this?
This guy is in the taliban, butI know that if we stick with
him, he'll get us to here, andwe want to be here.

(57:15):
But now we're here and this guycan do it, but just because of
some words that we're puttingafter his name, I can't talk to
him.
You know, right?
Um, so a similarity is Irecognize that with a lot of you
know taliban guys in particular, I went in with the

(57:37):
understanding that they'rehorrible, they hate all
Americans and they will kill you.
And some were definitely likethat.
But other guys were like no man, I hate it here, you know, and
they're just like it sucks.
Like what do you want me to say?
Like it sucks, I'm broke.
You know.
Like I eat grapes every day,that's all I can afford.
Like this sucks.

(57:58):
I eat grapes every day, that'sall I can afford.
Like this sucks.
And they'd open up and tell youthat and they think you know we
had a misunderstanding aboutyou know Afghans in Southeastern
Afghanistan into anothercountry.
That's redacted.
I'm guessing you could figureout how to travel the way East

(58:18):
is redacted.
Go right on a map there.
Yeah exactly Now.
You found it, but, yeah, youknow, we were told that those
are the worst types of people.
Have you ever asked them whatthey think about you?
Have you ever asked them whatthey're preconditionally

(58:41):
informed about you?
Well, they don't have aportfolio like I got on them.
They have television.
So what's television saying tothem?
Well, it's saying one of thesame thing it says to teenagers
here Everybody in the CIA isJason Bourne or James Bond.
So when I didn't come in andsuit and tie, they're like

(59:04):
you're not a spy because I looklike this sitting down, you know
.
Or I dress in local attire, andthey'd be like that makes no
sense.
You're supposed to come out ofa helicopter and then you're
supposed to like shoot everyoneand then have a martini and we
talk, no, you know.
So that was something you hadto get through too, and for what

(59:25):
it is worth I don't know if Iwrote about it or not I know
I've definitely spoken about it.
Really, taking intoconsideration what this person
already thinks about you issomething that I think you
should do in real life, to theextent you can as well, and I
have, especially inrelationships.

(59:47):
Say, for example, meeting mygirlfriend's friends for the
first time.
What must they think about me?
And what has happened recentlybetween her and I that she may
or may not have talked to themabout?
Do they know more about me thanI want them to?

(01:00:09):
Yeah, you know, what do they infact already know about me, or
think about me, you know, maybethey haven't heard a whole lot,
but they Googled me and theythink this and just having that
idea in my head instead of well,I'm a nice guy, they'll see I'm
a nice guy, I'm nice to her.

(01:00:30):
He's probably told him I'm thegreatest ever.
Like stubbed my toe at herhouse yesterday and that was a
12 hour argument.
That's what they think about me,that's what they're thinking
about you right now, and they'renot happy.
So now and then I'll shut up.
That is a perfect situation.

(01:00:51):
Leading right into what I wasdoing with syria, there was a
certain individual who later ranfor president but did not win
you can probably guess who whohad a big leadership position in
the united states government in2012, who was making promises
to the turkish people aboutno-fly zones and things like

(01:01:12):
this that were directly relevantto what I was doing on a daily
basis.
And when you say those things,well then people are going to
expect those things.
So it started me walking intothe room knowing ahead of time.
I got to diffuse that andthere's going to be 30 questions
about where's the air support?
Well, your leadership said wewere getting it yesterday and

(01:01:38):
then it never happened.
Oh boy, but yeah, I think if Isay anything worthwhile there,
it's to consider what somebodyalready thinks about you,
whether they're right or wrong.
Just because you think you're anice guy or you're cool, uh,
they may think the exactopposite.
So be prepared for that if youcan, and handle that.

(01:02:02):
First.
Get that out of the way beforeyou try selling them on the nice
guy thing.

Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
That's a really really good point.
And in your experience too.
You're talking about somethingthat happens at some strategic
level, that some electedofficial or politician't matter.
I'm, you know, wearing thatuniform, in a sense, or I'm the

(01:02:43):
the, the person exemplifyingthis entire organization or
mission, and you're just oneperson and you're going fuck uh,
how do I walk this back andstill get done what I need to
get done?

Speaker 2 (01:02:56):
yeah, that you that you know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
That's.
You know, you, you're.
Actually a lot of the stuffthat you talk about is is so
relevant to the law enforcementfolks that we work with and what
their role is, because it's thesame thing.
It's like you can be the nicestguy, the greatest person, have
an amazing record and career,but then you show up and you,
but you're wearing the sameuniform and someone saw
something on the news news andthat might as well have been you

(01:03:19):
, and it's like, well, dude,that wasn't me, dude, um, and
but I understand this is youronly interaction and you know
kind of it goes to.
You know also people makingpromises that they shouldn't be
making and saying things ingeneral that they shouldn't be
making.
It's like if you can't deliveron something, don't, don't say

(01:03:39):
that you can say something else,right, but but you know, if you
start making promises to peopleor set, or set unreasonable
expectations for them oryourselves or whatever, and you
don't meet those, then that'sall they see.
That's all they know.
Like it doesn't matter how hardyou're working at getting that
thing accomplished or or what'shappening in the background.

(01:04:00):
That's all they know.
Like it doesn't matter how hardyou're working at getting that
thing accomplished or or what'shappening in the background,
like that's all they know attheir level, and so you have to
sort of speak to that, I mean,and that that can get really,
really tough at it.
Well, especially with your jobtoo, what you had to do is, I
mean, it's obviously extremelydangerous.
Um, you know, things could goSouth, and if they go south it
means you know you could bekilled, uh, or some catastrophic

(01:04:22):
end to whatever mission orassignment that's happening and
that affects the entire area.
So it's like, but again, thatsort of goes back to even the
law enforcement stuff.
Here you are.
Next thing, you know, you'reall you're on, you're on cnn.
You know, that night with yourvideo of something that occurred
and no one got to seeeverything leading up to it,

(01:04:42):
right, you just got to see whathappened or the outcomes of the
situation, and now that's justincredible.
You know, the second thirdorder facts can can are
detrimental to that whole area.

Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
Yeah, I, I agree, and I think that a lot of it too
has to do with folks confusing apromise and a guarantee, and
you really only get one chanceto screw that up, because at the
beginning a promise is aguarantee, always Like if you

(01:05:14):
promise me something and I trustyou, I'm going to believe in
you, and now it's a guarantee.
You told me that you'd havethat to me by Tuesday.
Well, when Wednesday comes andI still don't have it, you never
again will hold a guaranteewith your promise.
Your promise is just a promiseand it doesn't mean much to me.
But if I can keep it, so thatyou know when I promise you

(01:05:38):
something, it's guaranteed tohappen.
So, for better or worse, Ithink making a promise has
become too easy for a lot offolks, so they make them willy
nilly at random, notunderstanding that to the people
they're telling it to, it's aguarantee, and so when it
doesn't happen, uh, yourpromises kind of don't mean shit

(01:06:03):
anymore.
So you're kind of out of thegame and you've done it to
yourself yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
so one of one of the things you you brought up and I
know we kind of talkedextensively, I guess, on it um,
you know you, we all can bitchand complain about stuff in a
sense, and like you're you, youand I've had similar experiences
where it's like, you know, likeyou said, okay, that's great,
but that's not how things aredone anymore, or what value does

(01:06:32):
this have?
I need to know what.
I had.
I had stuff, especially themilitary too, and you get this
really frustration of like, yeah, but that's not working or that
doesn't work here, can we trysomething else?
Can we do this?
And you get a lot of pushbackfrom that.
And so, because there's justlike these organizational sort
of norms that are hard to getpast sometimes, because one of

(01:06:56):
the because when I I re readsome some stuff from from a
while back I know you had anarticle in the new york times
and everything, and if you'relistening up I'll put the links
in the, in the details.
But, like you know, one of thethings that after your book came
out, um, some they I guess theagency said something about it,
you know, and you, even thoughyou had to go submit it and they
have to go through everything,and you know that's where

(01:07:19):
there's a lot of black lines inthat book, uh, that have
redacted stuff.
But it actually reminded me andsomeone we know, probably know
mutually Um, well, I'm not gonnasay their name on here, but
even said something to me aboutyou one time and I've kind of
heard this said about me in asimilar way, but they said me in

(01:07:43):
a similar way.
But they said, um, you know,with age and greater maturity,
mr laux at one point, uh, um, it, or at one point might have a
different perspective on histime at the agency.
And I know exactly like I'vehad such a similar thing said to
me before.
It's like, well, you know, youhaven't really been around much
and you got to understandthere's other things at play.
It's like, no, I, I, I get thatthis isn't about me.

(01:08:03):
I understand there's otherthings at play, but what, why?
Why are we doing this?
Like I know how to go do allthis stuff, but like, what, what
is sort of this?
Why behind all of these things?
And I used to get reallyfrustrated when someone couldn't
explain that to me or theycouldn't articulate it.
They're like, oh, you'llunderstand eventually.
It's like, well, if you can'tfucking tell me, then do you not

(01:08:27):
know?
And that's fine.
If you don't, you can just sayI don't know, this is how we've
always done it.
Okay, that's, that's fine.
There's like that's, that's ananswer, right, but you're
showing what problem is when yousay something like that.
You're showing like fuck, Idon't know, maybe there is a
better way, but we don't want todo that.
Sometimes, right, as humans,right, we don't want to put in

(01:08:47):
the extra effort and peoplejustify it in different ways,
like you said.
Like, well, I know, if I stickto the plan, if I stick to this,
I'll get promoted.
I know I'll continue with mycareer and I've got a family and
I've got this.
And it's like look, I get that.
No one's asking you to say F thesystem, burn it down, man, you
know what I mean.
No one's trying to get rid ofall of that great work you did.

(01:09:10):
It's evolved, it's changed.
So how do we take these lessonslearned, going forward in a
sense, but we don't like get tothat level and I've had that
before.
So what is your experience?
Because you actually you saidit earlier in the show people
don't realize that too.
It's like you know, the CIA isstill a government agency.
There's still a bureaucracy,there's still an HR department,

(01:09:32):
there's still I mean you knowthere's, like it still has.
You know, every other function,function.
You know normal administrative,bureaucratic stuff that I don't
care if you're at a 50 personpolice agency, you have some of
those same things there.
And so I I'm, I'm curious, kindof like your, your take on that

(01:09:52):
, because now it has been youknow some time since you wrote
the book and probably time toreflect, and you've been doing
other stuff which, oh, oh yeah,if I had to be doing your, your
Netflix stuff with aliens, Igotta, I gotta ask you about
that in a minute here.
But but, uh, um, but you know,what do you do?
What, looking back now, like,what are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
And when someone else or whatever, like, what do you?
What do you think now, lookingback?
Well, uh, what you're talkingabout, the comment that the
agency made to the new yorktimes, believe it or not, was
actually beneficial to me, um,and not from what they said,
just that they said anything atall, because, um, their policy
is nothing.
They don't have a conferenceroom, by the way, you know.

(01:10:44):
Like there is no daily brieffrom the cia, like that does not
happen.
They just don't acknowledge youand they, those redactions were
made by their hands andeveryone knows that, but they
don't admit to it.
And they give you the paragraphto put at the beginning that
says you know, we have nothingto do with this book, these are

(01:11:06):
this author's opinion, so on.
So I already had that.
But the comment that they madeabout, you know, with age will
bring wisdom, essentially iswhat they're saying, and he'll
understand what time is.
What they were saying, uh, Ithink, was probably meant as a
dig at the time, but what theymaybe didn't realize was that it

(01:11:30):
was extremely helpful, becauseafter they said that to the ns
of the world and to the Fox Newsof the world, you just
confirmed that this guy used tobe a spy.
Because now you're directlyusing his name and you're saying
Mr Lauchs will understand whathe used to do with time because

(01:11:53):
he did it.
So like I didn't even get thatuntil the New York Times
journalist told me he's like ohman, this is awesome.
He, like I didn't even get thatuntil the New York Times
journalist told me he's like, ohman, this is awesome.
He's like they just, this isthe first time ever.
You know there's been CIAofficers who have written books
mostly analysts, that's finewith this with my editor and the

(01:12:21):
publisher on how we confirmwhat you're saying is even true
or not, and my response wasalways well, look at the black
lines and he's like, yeah, butthe public doesn't know that.
You didn't just do thatyourself.
Like they have no clue.
You could have just did that tolook cool and, you know, pursue
this.
So when they took theopportunity to personally take a
strike at me for what I haddone whether I agree with what

(01:12:45):
they said or not it did help tovalidate me.
So I'll say that, as far aswhat I thought about it yeah, I
don't know that it wasnecessarily time in grade,
because I did leave.
I think it was just time ingeneral of getting away from

(01:13:08):
something and, yeah, doingsomething else and then
returning to it and looking atit and seeing things differently
.
You know, seeing things fromnot the guy with a thousand
ideas on how to fix a war.
Now.
I'm a guy who's like is isbubbins out of cat food, yet I

(01:13:30):
should probably yeah, probablyget another house's water,
probably get on walmartcom later.
You know, that's like theseries of my thoughts in a day.
So now if you bring up Syria oryou bring up Afghanistan, I'm
like, oh boy, okay, let's thinkabout that and look at it.

(01:13:51):
And I do think differentlyabout some things, but it
doesn't take away how I felt atthe time and I still stand by
everything I said in the book.
And for those that didn't likeit and thought I was too young
and too much of a brat, thoseare the same individuals I found
who complained the most aboutme talking about my

(01:14:14):
relationships.
They hate it.
And to me, that was the mostimportant part of what I was
writing about to begin with,because, again, we're all humans
and we all do that and we allfind significant others because
we want to.
We all want to, no matter whoit is, no matter who your spouse

(01:14:34):
or significant other is, Idon't care, but we all want
someone, and so dealing withprobably what may be life's most
important thing to do or careabout a significant other, uh is
going to play a huge role inany author's mind.
So why not write about it?
And that shit was reallyhappening to me and so I thought

(01:14:58):
it was was worth putting thatout there.
Hey, you think it's cool andyou're James Bond and you bang
every hot chick that's everwalked by.
No, most of us do have wivesand kids or girlfriends or
boyfriends, and that's prettydifficult.
That's a whole other topic wecould spend 10 hours on right
now, I'm sure all three of us.

(01:15:18):
Okay, so I'll leave alone butthe premise of what they were
saying in that remark I think itwas more.
Just the guy that was given theguidance to say something at
all to the New York times,because that's an important
newspaper uh had to saysomething and it couldn't be

(01:15:41):
good, could not becongratulatory like.
We wish him the best.
They had to do something and sothat came out.
But looking back at thatstatement alone now, here, 10
years later, I think about thatdifferently.
It's not a dig.
They were right.
I think about that differently.
You know it's not a dig.

(01:16:02):
They were right.
He will think about these thingsdifferently, but it doesn't
change how I felt at the timeand that is what's most
important, because I was the onewith my hand on the lever at
that time.
So it doesn't matter what Ithink now and it doesn't matter
what somebody from 1973 thoughtwhen I had my hand on the lever

(01:16:23):
in 2011.
It mattered what I thoughtright then and there, and that's
what I'm telling you about inthe book what I thought right
there at that second.
Do I push that button?
So that is really critical tounderstand.
That is why I thought that way.
So that is really critical tounderstand.
That is why I thought that wayand that's why I did what I did.
Now, looking back, maybe I waswrong and a lot of the things

(01:16:45):
that I did, or maybe it didn'tgo as well as I thought when I
wrote about it.
Hey, we got the ID guy.
Now I kind of look at it like,yeah, so what?
That was just a good dude madefor a good story and it was a
good story.
So you know, uh, yeah, I, Idon't know.

Speaker 3 (01:17:06):
I guess, as they say, when the facts change, I hope
my opinions change so that'sscience by the way and to go
back into science, on you twoguys again, because I'll call
you chuckleheads now.
You guys forget what a smallelite band of people you belong
to.
Most people are born and raisedand die within a couple of

(01:17:26):
blocks of their ancestral home.
Most people never get out ofthe country.
Most people never have the typeof opportunities that you do or
join the military or were incombat.
So when you look back on it andthis is just science when you
look back on things you never atthat time said one day I'm
going to be the director of theCIA, I'm going to stay in the

(01:17:46):
CIA for 38 years and retire fromthis position and I'm going to
have a desk in the D ring of thePentagon.
Brian never thought I'm goingto be command sergeant major of
the Marine Corps and I'm goingto retire with full benefits.
Out of this you didn't, becauseyou were fucking booting doors
and ramming cars and you werehaving a great time doing it and
it was so unique that nobodyyou knew was into that shit.
And the first time you got ataste of it it was like fucking

(01:18:08):
sucking the fentanyl.
You could not stay off of thatpipe after that and we were all
there and that's why we all wentback, and it is different now,
but I loved your appraisal of it, doug, because you are
different and you weren't thesame person, and so somebody
else, without being in yourshoes.
And, brian, here's our argumentagain if they didn't walk in
your shoes and they didn't haveyour experiences, they should

(01:18:30):
fucking uh, uh, hear mouth inGerman.
They should hold their mouthand and uh, stay in their own
lane, because you did somethingthat without that something that
you did, brian, the same way,the world would be a vastly
different place.
Okay, and so that little thingthat you think back on now was a
huge thing to the big wheelthat was turning at that time.

(01:18:53):
You changed lives.
You met people and changed thetrajectory of their lives and
the direction, and that's whyyour book is such a powerful
piece and that's why people tryto bat you down.
Nobody watches a gosh damn movieand says you see a fucking
janitor back there that'ssweeping up the vomit from that
kid in the cafeteria as we'rewatching Mean Girls.
I want to be that guy.
I want to be the best guy tofucking mop that floor.

(01:19:15):
Nobody thinks about that, andso you guys sometimes got to
slow your roll and look back andI know you are and, trust me,
I'm not not belittling you inany way.
I'm saying you sometimes got tobe proud of those things that
you did do, because sometimeshistory is harsh and sometimes
history looks back and, oh man,if we could have gone left
instead of right.
But you didn't know that at thetime and you were operating

(01:19:35):
under what unitary youire,unless otherwise directed, I'm
doing these things right now.
That's magic.
That's why I love that fatebrought you and Brian together
again and that fate also broughtyou back to the show.
The right people are listeningto this, but I just wanted to
make sure that you understandhow profound those statements
are that you're making when youreplay this episode.

(01:19:57):
I hope you hear that.

Speaker 1 (01:20:06):
Brian, I got to hear about the alien thing.
Please, I, I want to make surethat we understand that,
speaking of, because you, you,you had, uh, um, you've, uh,
you've done a bunch of reallycool stuff.
You did, uh, finding escobar'smillions, I think it was called.
You know, the show fordiscovery you created and then
sold to them, basically, andthen you've got, you, your,
you've been on a few otherthings, but, um, you know, the
funny thing was I, I reached outto you, like on linkedin.

(01:20:26):
I was like, oh fuck, I gottalook them up.
I saw on social media, and thenhere, and then, because I came
across some youtube videos,someone sent me something.
You go down a youtube rabbithole.
Then one of your video pops up.
I was like, oh, shit, d shit,doug.
And then I'm sitting therewatching this Netflix thing with
with my wife and all of asudden, hey, we're going to go
talk to Doug locks.
And I was like what, wait aminute.
Like I fucking know that.

(01:20:47):
Like, oh my God, that's Doug.
And of course, my wife's likewho wait?
Who do you know in this, thealiens or the?
And I'm like I've got.
And then she's like how do youknow him?
Then I was like that's a longstory.
Uh, never mind, let's just keepwatching the show.
But but, uh, so you're, um,you're on this new it's.

(01:21:08):
I think it's pretty.
One of the hit shows on netflixright now is, uh, I forget the
name of it, but it's the I.
There's so many different alienones on there.
My favorite is that's myfavorite is the ancient alien
guy with the crazy hair andstuff.

Speaker 2 (01:21:20):
But we're in it.

Speaker 1 (01:21:20):
Yeah, and the big headband I love that dude, yeah,
but you're on the show and theyhave you kind of talking to
these people as sort of likevetting them in a sense, almost
Like what do you think of themand what they're saying them and
what they're saying and, andyou know, we were talking a

(01:21:41):
little bit about this on theweekend because my thing is like
, look, I don't think a lot ofthese people are making up the
stories that they're telling.
It's just they don't, theydidn't see or it's not what
people think it is.
But anyway, I'll tell us aboutwhat you're doing on the show
and what your thoughts are on onthe, the show in general and
and aliens in general, I guess.

Speaker 2 (01:22:01):
Uh well, I think it's exactly what Greg was saying
just a few moments ago aboutmost people haven't left their
ancestral grounds.
Perhaps is a good start.
Uh, to talking about the alienshow.
Um, because I was brought on byproduction, who they know just

(01:22:22):
a little bit more than like youraverage civilian of what
espionage is, and you knowthey've done some background
research and they've Googledyour name and and things like
that, so they get it to a degree.
But you know, when I first cameon, it was like, hey, this is
what we have, so say it this wayor do it this way.

(01:22:46):
And I was like, look, if youwant me to be on the show, I'm
not going to say I believe inaliens, but I also won't say I
don't believe in aliens.
If you want me to tell you ifthat guy's a liar, I will 100%
do that.
Or I'll tell you I kind ofbelieve the guy, or maybe I
think his story is full of shit,but he believes it.

(01:23:06):
And that is what I found themost to be.
And you guys see that in reallife too, where you know,
because you've been toldsomething so many times, you
start to believe in it yourself.
And this resonated very wellwith me from and again, I mean

(01:23:26):
no offense, uh, but there's alot of military guys who didn't
do a fucking thing who go aroundto the vfw and the american
legion, high-siding, like youknow, they saved the queen and
they were in shootout aftershootout after shootout it's
like what were you doing?
Every five minutes.
You know, you guys have heardthese stories to find out.

(01:23:49):
The guy never left arizona andyou did a two-year bid, you know
.
So like what, what are you eventalking about?
You know, but they'll start tobelieve in it themselves from
going to places like the Legionor so on.
And I love the American Legionand the VFW, but thank you for

(01:24:10):
your service so many times andyou're a hero.
So many times People don't evenknow what they did, they don't
know what their designationstands for and they haven't seen
their DD 214.
And then you'll find that theyjust eventually start to run
with the myth.
You know that's been createdfor them on their behalf out of

(01:24:36):
just generosity and kindness ofAmericans.
You know, by and large, verymuch value the, the military,
but it goes over the top.
And then you find the personthat is being congratulated or
so on starts to run with it tothe point where they're the one
telling the story that theyheard somebody else telling

(01:24:56):
about them and you're like wait,wait, wait, like this guy is
full of shit, like none of thatactually happened.
And so to bring it to the alienstuff that I was doing, uh, I
found that a lot of people hadbeen telling the same story for
so long that they really dobelieve it and I, you know,

(01:25:24):
their stories are polished and Icould tell, and so I never
questioned whether the personwas lying out of trying to get
something or deceive me, ordoing it out of a negative idea
that they have in mind to gainsomething from it.
Something from it.
This is just the story they hadalways told and, like Greg was

(01:25:44):
saying, they've never reallyleft their hometown and it's the
same town their grandparentswere in and their grandpa
believed in this story and thatkind of got passed down over the
generations.
So now this guy's, almost atdefault, has to believe in the
story.
That's what his dad told him,his dad believed in, and that

(01:26:06):
doesn't have to be about aliens.
I can stretch it all the way tothe taliban, you know, or okay
exactly yeah, same story, it'ssame origin story.

Speaker 3 (01:26:14):
Exactly, dog, that's brilliant, that's a great,
that's a great time, it's yourlineage and um.

Speaker 2 (01:26:21):
so you know, because they did it that way, I have to
do it that way because dad'sstill watching, but then by the
time he passes away, I'vealready told my son this is the
way to do it, and now he'swatching.
So, and, by the way, I want tooutperform dad.
So you see, and again it goesthe same, whether it was my old

(01:26:43):
job or this job seeing theoriginal story that some of
these guys were telling had notbeen fabricated but had been
massaged into a glorious story,and each generation after made
it more glorious to the pointwhere it reached Netflix ears.
That's about as glorious as youcan get if you're trying to get

(01:27:05):
on TV, and they got it there.
And so I come in and started torealize that pretty quick that,
hey, you guys can look intothis scientifically, because
that's the only way I see thatthis could be proven or
disproven, that you have to usescience here, not stories.
I'm sorry, this is a big deal.

(01:27:28):
So, as far as that guy, I thinkhe thinks he's telling the truth
, but I think he's also justrelating a story that's been
told to him.
And if he says that hepersonally saw it, what he said
back in 1985 when he first sawit has really advanced now into

(01:27:50):
2024.
And I get it Same location,same story, but a lot more
details.
Now why weren't there moredetails when you were on top of
it and they've kind of fadedover time?
Because if you ask me stories,general stories about the agency
.
Somebody asked me the other day, like what do you eat every day

(01:28:11):
?
I'm like, did we even have afucking cafeteria, right?

Speaker 3 (01:28:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:28:17):
Yeah, yeah no no.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I met Hayden in the cafeteriaand then it all came back to me
but it was like who cares, likeI've forgotten about that at
this time.

Speaker 3 (01:28:29):
So you know, I don't know if that makes sense, but it
does one way to divulge uh, uh,like I, I can bag on coppers
and and uh, the, I will hear acop testify and immediately call
bullshit.
Because my first question ishow is it?
Your fucking memory is soprecise right now and this cave
was two and a half years old andwhen you wrote it, your memory

(01:28:52):
is now filling in details thatweren't even in your written
report that you wrote that night.
And you're on there and theexpository is going and it's
building and stuff.
And that's just the nature ofhumans.
Nobody wants to have a shitstory.
Nobody wants a Rolodex of yourlife to come up with a fucking
blank card and then all of asudden somebody goes I guess I
was nominal, you know.
Nobody wants a meh.
So that's you know, that's us.

(01:29:13):
That's just human nature.
And if you, if you take it forwhat it's given look, I know
they saw wasn't a Sasquatch, itwas a gosh damn bear, you know
and if you take it from that,then we have to rationalize
everything in our lives some way, and that's why we love the
scientific approach.
Look of all the things that havecome and gone in my short
career, you know, six decades onthe planet.

(01:29:35):
Things have come and gone, butyou know what?
That really good stuff hasstood the test of time and
everybody can point back at thatstuff.
So I just want to be when.
When they're doing the countfor me it's going to be at L.
I think they still do a gatething there, though.
Uh, you know, it's like studio54 where they got a fucking you
know gold bar or red thing.
But when they do the accounting, I just want to make sure that

(01:29:57):
I did more good than bad forsomebody at some point in my
life, and I think, doug, I thinkyou can really say that I think
you've done a lot of great fora lot of people and have
expanded the way people look atthings, and I think that's a
noble effort.
I think that's a great thing tolook back on.

Speaker 2 (01:30:13):
Yeah, thank you.
I can really tell Greg, you'rea club guy.
I'm telling you man.

Speaker 3 (01:30:19):
I'm telling you, rave guy, club guy.
I'm telling you, rave guy, clubguy.
My latest work on written workwas no Parking on the Dance
Floor.
That'll tell you a little bitwhere I get my funk from yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:30:34):
Well, those, yeah, the alien shows always remind me
of different stories differentstories, I mean even especially
from from uh, you know we hadwho, this uh insurgent sniper
dealing with back in like this,back like 2004, iraq and you
know, and the stories just growlike oh, he's like, you know,
he's from chechnya and he's youknow, he's jacked and he's two

(01:30:56):
miles out.
Yeah, and it's olympic hopefulwell, we had, and they're the
wall so right they made it.
They made a movie based on thosestories but, um, they, there's
a.
There was one we were workinggreg greg was there for this one
.
We were in a place and theseguys were uh getting hit from
some rebel folks, uh from theneighboring country, where

(01:31:18):
things were going on and theywere sitting there going like,
whoa, you, you have tounderstand they.
They come up and they canactually um move the boulders on
the mountain and they can taketheir shot and they can look
from the secret base exactly,and they're going like how, how
do you think they would do that?
and I'm like, okay, okay, um,okay, well, maybe that's, that's

(01:31:39):
a possibility.
I guess, tell you what, maybehe's a lot closer than that, I
don't know.
Maybe maybe he's like rightover here, uh, and not up in
those mountains a half a mileaway into that place.

Speaker 3 (01:31:53):
Maybe he's sitting in this room, brian yeah, we don't
want to say that one.

Speaker 2 (01:31:59):
What was the uh bradley?
Was it called American Sniper?
Yeah, was that movie where he'sa sniper.
So, uh, one thing I used to getso annoyed by but now I
actually secretly love it is towatch television with somebody
about.
Something like we used to dowas watching American Sniper

(01:32:21):
with a lady once.
And there's this scene whereBradley Cooper which I guess
they're supposed to be basingthis on what Chris Kyle, the
actual sniper I can promise youthis did not happen.
If he wrote about it in hisbook, I don't remember reading
it, but Bradley Cooper ends upshooting the bad guy sniper in

(01:32:41):
the culminating, final, finalscene from like a mile and a
half away.
Okay, and my girlfriend'scomment at the time was he did
it just like he was trainedright through the scope.
And I yeah, I thank you forlaughing and I, but you know,
just then, when she said that, Iwas like, wait, you really

(01:33:04):
think that that's like theytrain you to shoot the guy who's
shooting at you and you shoothim through his scope.

Speaker 3 (01:33:14):
Sniper schools go through a lot of scopes.
Dog, they're going through alot of scopes, but like to her.

Speaker 2 (01:33:20):
That's the only way it's done.
Is a sniper hunts other snipersonly and shoots them from a
mile and a half away becausethat's easy and he's obviously
good because he's American andhe got it just where he wanted
it to right through the guys,right through the glass and
everything.
I bet he got glass in his eye.

Speaker 1 (01:33:43):
And I'm like oh okay, so yeah, you know it's like one
guy did that and after he didit, you know 50 years ago, was
like oh damn, that was a total,fucking lucky shot.
And everyone went from thatpoint on, like that's how those
things are when someone's likehathcock story brian dude?
I well, I was remember I wastelling you about.

(01:34:04):
Remember, dirk, our buddy Greghe took me out with some of his
old timer buddies one time yearsago at this pub and we're you
know, they're all together, theyall throw darts and they, you
know, have their own darts Like,and we're sitting like, yeah,

(01:34:24):
let me go warm up, do you, uh,do you ever like play darts?
I was like, I was like no, uh,it's been a while.
And I walk up there and threedarts just my first three darts,
all in the bullseye, and I'msitting there going like, oh,
how the fuck, and did I do that?
And I turn around, they go.
I thought you said you don'tplay much and I was like, well,
I, uh, you had a meltdown at theworld championships five years
ago and I haven't thrown a dartsince.
And they're, like, itprogressively got worse after

(01:34:45):
that.
It was just pure luck.
And I was like, uh, there we go.
So.
But they were all terrified,like we got to play against this
guy and I was like I had to gotell my buddy Dirk.
I'm like Dirk, this is going toget, uh, exponential worse from
what you just saw right now.
Like I, I do not.
I've played darts once in mylife.

Speaker 3 (01:35:02):
I'm sitting with Chuck Mawinney and Carlos
Hathcock at a place calledDomino Farms and we were talking
about this exact topic.
And Hathcock talks about a timein Vietnam where he shot a .50
cal and broke the fork on abicycle that the local guy that
they were targeting.
So he fell down on the groundand had a scramble for it and he

(01:35:22):
goes.
You know, I was aiming for hishead the entire time and we
laughed for 30 minutes becauseit was like, well, you're lucky,
you got it in the grid square.
And he's like yeah, I know.
And how many times do we thinkback on something that we did
that's now legendary, thatpeople still talk about?
And you're thinking if theyonly knew, if they only knew how
much luck and how much lightwas in somebody's eyes during
that recollection that's great.

Speaker 2 (01:35:44):
Yeah, when the myth becomes the legend, print the
legend, that's it, yeah yeah,well, hey, you got to tell your
folks at netflix.

Speaker 3 (01:35:52):
You got to tell them that, uh, that I'm an expert on
aliens, uh, uh, and so I wouldlove to be on that show one time
, because I will be the hairthing exactly alien.
Uh, conception, oh my gosh,we'll do that one I was
impregnated by an alien.
I'm ready.
That's my testify to that.

Speaker 1 (01:36:14):
That's so funny, god well, man, um, dude, I I
appreciate you, you coming onand talking about the stuff and
I know you don't do a lot of thepodcasts and stuff and I wasn't
even totally sure on what weended up talking about on here.
I wanted to get you on to getyour perspective because I
respect it and appreciate it alot.
And I think you broke contactwhen the book printed is what it

(01:36:40):
was right.
I remember you sent me a textor something like that and then
like it was nothing and then youknow, you kind of broke contact
with everyone, which I get, youknow you had to kind of I'm
assuming there's, there's a lotof blowback from, from this
stuff.
That that's, you know, some ofit expected, some of it
unexpected, some things you likeI'm sure you're like like, yeah

(01:37:01):
, I figured this would happen orsome.
It's like you know, holy shit,I didn't realize, you know this
would happen.
So sharing that stuff is isreally, it's really cool.
It takes a lot and it's a lotmore than than people think
sometimes.
And you know, I just justappreciate you coming on, man,
and sharing some of the stuff,because I'm a big fan of of doug
and we always had an insanetime together, uh, uh, hanging

(01:37:25):
out, and so, um, it was good toreconnect, man, and so I'd love
to uh, the, you know we gotta,we gotta hang out sometime or
forever in the same area.
But, um, you know, man, I just,I really do appreciate you
coming on the show and I'll,I'll, I know it's the perfect
book for Christmas.

Speaker 3 (01:37:41):
Think about it.

Speaker 1 (01:37:43):
There we go.

Speaker 2 (01:37:45):
There we go.

Speaker 1 (01:37:46):
Yeah, it is.

Speaker 2 (01:37:48):
Well, if I will say this, then as far as, like, what
you're doing and what yourpodcast is all about, I think
you know somebody might watchthis and say these three were
just rambling the whole time.
You know they were justtalkingambling the whole time.
You know they were just talkingabout the good old days or so
on.
But I think other people maylook at it and see the format

(01:38:12):
and realize I'm going to talk tothis guy, brian, in 10 years
and this is the first time I'mever meeting Greg and look how
easy this was and howcomfortable we all were and
we're all kind of goofing aroundand we're like having fun and
we're talking and we're justbeing open and honest with each
other.
And to use that is because,brian, you and I established

(01:38:38):
that trust very early on.
You know, between you and I itwas the idea of me you same same
, I don't need to.
Of me you same same, I don'tneed to lie to this guy, he
doesn't need to lie to me.
I know he's been there, donethat, so have I great.
Now let's both just be humanstogether and so you know, talk
to people for the weekend.

(01:38:58):
You know that was for an hour,great, but then here it's just
like we just taught a course twodays ago.
It seems like yeah and with youguys say you know, heard
stories about you and everythingum, and what you were up to.
And now here we are meeting forthe first time.
I'm like, yeah, I've known thisguy for 15 years.

Speaker 3 (01:39:17):
Yeah, well doug I hope I'm not as big as a dick as
they were leading you on tobelieve so because it's a
pleasure meeting you, okay, Iknew it was one of those.
There we go.
That's so funny.
That's so funny.
Let's get it right, so true.

Speaker 1 (01:39:32):
Yeah, yeah, man, no, it's.
It's funny.
I was like that time that thatwhat I forget where we were at
and all of a sudden, a lot inthe morning doing some stupid
workout.
And then like you're comingwalking out with some other dude
, I'm like, is that like what?
Is this dude like following me?
Wait a minute.
And then you're probably likeis this dude following me?

Speaker 2 (01:39:51):
like what's going on here?
Yeah, I wasn't gonna tell thatstory, but uh yeah, marion's a
fan boy.

Speaker 3 (01:39:57):
you can say that I've never met anybody that marion
likes.
So actually meeting you, dog,and knowing that you've carried
down a relationship for 10 yearshonest to God, because he does
not it's just like with Shelly.
It's like what do you think ofthis guy?
And then Shelly actually lookedat your bio and checked out the
book and everything and Shellywas like oh, it seems like it's
going to be a great guest andit's been a blast.
But, like Brian, brian's alwayslike nah, nah, lukewarm, and

(01:40:26):
then with this he's like douglot, doug lot, we're gonna.

Speaker 1 (01:40:27):
so I'm very happy to finally meet you and uh, yeah,
again, you know your, your storyis an easy one to tell.
It's a great one.
I and I know that's me becauselike I'm, like you know it, I
don't, I don't.
I don't get along with a lot ofpeople.
I tolerate everyone pretty much, but like I, I don't get along
or or create friends with a lotof people or want to have a
drink with most people.
I'm like, hey, I'm going to gowalk around the city by myself

(01:40:49):
for the next three hours orsomething If we have free time,
correct.

Speaker 3 (01:40:55):
Yeah, it's so funny.

Speaker 2 (01:40:57):
Because you brought up the story.
It didn't help that I wasgetting in the car at 7 am with
a colleague and I left and bothof our first thoughts were who
the fuck is that guy?
You're in the goddamn parkinglot of like a shitty hotel doing

(01:41:17):
calisthenics and I'm like thisguy looks like somebody I know
who stretches like that.
And I got out of the car and Iwas like there's no way.

Speaker 3 (01:41:27):
And you're like hey man, what's going?

Speaker 2 (01:41:29):
on.

Speaker 3 (01:41:30):
Remarkably, almost exactly how I hook up at furry
conventions.
You know, I know somebody thatstretches like that.
No, that was Marin.
We would be checking into somecrappy hotel and I see one guy
doing one-arm pull-ups with hisfingertips and somebody looks at
it and goes, that looks likeMarin.
It is Marin.
There's never been a time thatsomebody said it looks like
Marin and it wasn't Marin.

Speaker 2 (01:41:52):
So true.

Speaker 3 (01:41:54):
So true.
Well it's easy when you're 5'1and you weigh 90 pounds.
That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:42:04):
It's a little harder when I'm I'm just saying I'm a
solid five three.

Speaker 3 (01:42:07):
This is so true.
The Christmas card is goingaround, brian, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:42:12):
Well, yeah, man, I, I , I appreciate it, I, you know,
and I thought it'd be cool tofor some of our listeners that
that folks that listen to likeevery episode so they kind of
get like a little inside, alittle behind the scenes of us
could be.
We sort of stay on more of likea specific topic and, yeah, we
bring in our stories and stuff,but it's not really like you
know old home week with someonethat we knew from from from back
in the day.

(01:42:32):
So it's fun to catch up, dude.
But uh, yeah, man, I reallyreally appreciate any anything
else you got.
They're working on coming upany other you can be on any more
tv shows where I can pointpeople and say, hey, I know that
guy hey, I'm doing that nextseason with him.
Uh, yeah, I haven't gotten thereyet, but eventually the story

(01:42:53):
is going to be?
Will they actually ask me to uh, but uh?

Speaker 2 (01:42:57):
yeah, I had to decline.
He's not doing so well, so Igave that to him.
Uh, yeah, I don't know, it'sthe holidays right now, so you
know the entertainment industryis asleep, so I have no idea
what's going on in that regard.
Uh, so what I'm going to donext really is I've just kind of

(01:43:19):
been sitting around for thepast month, so when you reached
out and want to do this, I waslike, yes, that does sound good
Getting up before noon.
Thank you for saying thatearlier.
I mean, I could have jumped onthe fact that we're both fans of
mean girls, greg, but oh yeah.

(01:43:41):
I let slide too, even though Icould have did an hour on that.

Speaker 1 (01:43:45):
Yeah, I bring it up way too many times in class
because it's one of my favoritemovies and I can tell the whole
entire cafeteria scene canexplain human behavior.
I could teach a whole coursejust on that cafeteria scene.

Speaker 2 (01:44:01):
Just do that, see that girl Just Just do that.
See that girl Just watch and dothat, just do that and dress
like that too all day.

Speaker 3 (01:44:11):
I still do, thank you .

Speaker 2 (01:44:14):
I can tell it's nice.
Thank you guys, thanks forthinking of me.
I'm glad I did it, but I knewthat this would go well, so
thanks for doing exactly what Ithought you would do.

Speaker 3 (01:44:33):
Well, Doug, I think it was an absolute blast from my
side and I want to make surethat our paths cross again,
because it was a lot of funtalking to you.
Like I said before, we startedrecording, we probably chewed a
bunch of the same territory andrun into the same people, so it
was just a pleasure finallyputting a face to the name and
hearing your story.
So it's been a blast for me andI'm glad you and Brian allowed

(01:44:54):
me in.
Thanks.

Speaker 1 (01:44:58):
Well, I appreciate it , man.
Thanks everyone for tuning in.
Of course, there's always moreon the Patreon site and reach
out if you have any questions.
Folks, and don't forget thattraining changes behavior.

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