How Practice Saved My Life: Applying HBPR&A Under Fire

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone and welcome to the Human Behavior
Podcast.
On today's episode, we'rejoined by our friend and now
teammate, dan Chavez, who sharesa personal and powerful story.
What happened the night he andhis wife found themselves in the
middle of an active shootersituation?
Dan walks us through how histraining helped him make rapid,
life-saving decisions underpressure and what he learned in
the aftermath.
But that story is just thebeginning.
Dan brings a rich background instructural design,

(00:22):
organizational performance andhuman performance improvement
fields where theory meetsreal-world application.
We dig into why most trainingfalls short, how to measure
actual proficiency and what goodlooks like when it comes to
preparing people for high-stakes, high-stress situations.
Whether you're in publicservice leadership or just want
to understand how training cantruly change behavior, this
episode is for you.
Thank you so much for tuning in.

(00:43):
We hope you enjoyed the episodeand don't forget to check out
our Patreon channel foradditional content and
subscriber only episodes.
If you enjoy the podcast,please consider leaving us a
review and, more importantly,sharing it with a friend.
Thank you for your time andremember training changes
behavior.
All right, we are recording.
Hello everyone, thanks fortuning in.
Super excited about our guesttoday Greg.

(01:04):
We've got our buddy and nowemployee former advisory board
member, dan Chavez on thepodcast.
For those of the Patreonsubscribers, you probably know
him already.
We did a little talk with himon there to get his background,
but I wanted to bring him onhere to have all of our
listeners listen to hisperspective on things and learn
a little bit about what he doesfor a living's.
One, it's really fascinatingand, two, he's part of the team

(01:26):
now.
He was on our advisory boardfor a couple of years pretty
much, and he would help us outwith stuff, like we do with
different folks on our advisoryboard.
And then basically he got tothe point where, okay, brian,
I'm not doing any more of thiswork unless you start paying me.
So I just said Dan funny howthat works.
And I was thinking about hiringyou.
Are you interested in a jobhere?

(01:47):
So it took a day, to take alittle bit longer than we wanted
to get it to line up, but itfinally did.
So here we are.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
The key is to fire Dan before that first paycheck.
And then you know, you're goingto try to say, yeah, gosh, damn
, it Ran to the bank.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yeah, that's, that's how I got him back on that
second we called.
I was like Dan's late and thenhe's like oh, sorry, I was
checking to make sure that checkactually went through.
And it did, so we're good,which I respect Right.
But that's a little bit, yeah,exactly, especially with this
crew.
But I want to bring it on andI'll let you kind of introduce

(02:23):
yourself in terms of yourbackground and stuff, dan,
because you do a much better jobthan I do and I'll butcher it.
And so why don't you tell ourlisteners a little bit about you
and kind of what you bring tothe team?

Speaker 3 (02:33):
Sure.
First, thanks guys foreverything for having me on the
podcast.
I've listened to so many ofthese episodes and they're great
supplemental material.
If you've been through thecourse, it's a great standalone
but also really deep diving intosome of the big core components
that you guys teach.
And then it was great being onthe advisory board and is
absolutely mission aligned forme from an individual purpose to

(02:56):
be supporting public service,public safety, first responders
in their roles and to have sometype of impact in what they do
on the day-to-day.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
So background lies we're going to look on that, dan
, too, before you jump intobackground.
I'm just like that's profound.
This must be really magical foryou to listen to this podcast
and then to hope one day I couldbe a guest on the Human
Behavior Podcast.
Who?
Doesn't say that though, maren,your dream has come true.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
Exactly who doesn't want to fulfill their destiny by
being on this show and ourseven listeners.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
Exactly.

Speaker 2 (03:29):
Three of whom are here right now.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
So I'll just say I came to this profession late,
I'd say.
Act one was married.
My high school sweetheartjoined the military, raised a
couple of daughters, wonderfuldaughters.
So I don't know if that's theway they say, you should do it
out of the playbook.
But that got me into my midthirties, right there.
A lot of operational jobs, alot of a lot of just you know,

(03:56):
hey, do this, do that, do theother.
So at some point my mid thirtieskind of got my act together, I
would say, and went back toschool and ended up finishing my
undergrad, went, did a graduateprogram in what's called
instructional design.
So it's a subfield of education, but it's not K through 12.
It's not university, it'sreally for applied workforce
development.

(04:17):
So this would be lawenforcement, could be emergency
services, hospital, and itoriginated out of the military
training needs in the 50s and60s.
So it's incredibly applied andit combines instruction with
what we know about how peoplelearn for task-based performance
in a role like being a policeofficer, like being a

(04:37):
firefighter, et cetera, etcetera.
So, coming out of that program,have been working probably for
the last 15 years in the fieldand I would say the highlight of
my profession previous toworking with you guys, of course
, is was working at the New YorkCity Department of Correction
and running the CorrectionAcademy.
So I was the number two personin charge and really was

(05:00):
responsible for the day-to-dayoperations and the curriculum
oversight for Department ofCorrections.
We varied anywhere from 8,000to 12,000 uniformed officers
plus about 1,500 non-uniformedstaff.
So all of their professionaldevelopment but, more important,
all of theirproficiency-related training
related to actually going outthere to doing their jobs on a
day-to-day basis On RikersIsland eight facilities and

(05:25):
incredibly diverse populationsof individuals that they have to
come in contact with, problemsolve and support on a
day-to-day basis.
So did that for three years andtowards the tail end of that,
as you guys know, that's when Ifound out about Greg's work,
your work, brian.
A friend of mine, jack HallWillock, gave me the book Left
of Bang and in the intro to Leftof Bang you'll see, as you guys

(05:47):
know, an acknowledgement toGreg Williams as being the owner
, essentially, of the IP for theLeft of Bang concept through
what he did with Combat Hunter.
And I would say my one wish isthat I had met you guys sooner,
because I feel that the conceptsthat are being taught here are
so incredibly relevant to anyonein a Department of Corrections

(06:09):
environment, because you'regoing out there you talk about
things like a baseline or ananomaly.
Those are things that those menand women have to deal with on
a day-to-day basis.
It's just an incredibly complexenvironment.
They're dealing with gangs,they're dealing with mental
health issues Just an incrediblevariety.
And this really is such arobust framework that I wish

(06:32):
that I had known you guys soonerso that I could have advocated
for it.
And I'll say that's a workplacekind of situation that I know
it works and would work there.
But also the last thing I'llsay is that I know it works
because I actually had to use it.
So I think this is important.
Last year I think it's beenabout a year now I was involved

(06:53):
in a shooting.
My wife and I were.
We've been living down here inSouthern Jersey for about a year
and a half, so one of thethings that you guys taught me
actually is just kind of likebuild your baseline, understand
what's going on, and I had beendoing this.
So on a particular day I'm outwith my wife, we're walking
around and everything's normal.

(07:13):
Streets are good People, rightamount of people.
So we go into a bar and we'rethere probably for about an hour
.
It's maybe around nine o'clock,around 10 o'clock.
There's two entrances.
They go ahead and they closeone of the entrances.
And I'm just kind of activelyprocessing this information,
kind of, according to what Iknow, all right, when we get up
and leave, we're going to haveto go out this door because that

(07:34):
one's closed.
So we get up about a half hourlater and we're getting ready to
leave, exiting that door, andwe hear what sounds like
gunshots.
Immediately duck down.
Now, because I've been kind ofprocessing this, I'm thinking
and my wife says was thatfireworks?
I said no, that was definitelya gunshot.
We paused for a second.
I initially thought, okay,maybe there's a gunfight

(07:56):
happening outside Immediately,probably might've been.
A second later this guy burstthrough the door.
So we're getting ready to leave.
He comes in and the look on hiseyes is he's running for his
life.
Now what I expected is thinkingthe gunfire was going outside.
He's just going to duck downand kind of wait it out like the
rest of us.
He comes running by as fast ashe can.

(08:17):
So immediately I update allright, this is not an outside
shooting.
This guy is being pursued, andthere's a high likelihood that
somebody is going to burstthrough the door behind him.
That's going to be the gunEverybody inside scatters.
I think what's significant,though, is I know my heart was
racing, I was primed to flee,but I immediately thought I'm

(08:39):
running this way.
But I'm looking for the kitchen.
I know there's a kitchen backthere and I know it has an
emergency exit.
Because they all do so, I'mrunning back there as fast as I
can.
I get to the kitchen it's dark.
I turn around.
There's only one person thatcame in behind me.
Unfortunately, that's the sameperson that came in through the

(09:00):
front door, so it's me and theindividual being pursued.
We're in the kitchen.
Stop, briefly, kind of get mybearings again.
I can't find the exit.
So here I am again.
Now.
I don't know where the exit is.
What am I going to do now?
So I decide that I'm going togo out.
I don't hear anything outsidewhere I just came from, so I'm

(09:20):
going to go back out.
I'm going to see if I hearsomething, if there's, and I'm
essentially going to try to goback out the way I came in, if
that area is clear.
If it's not clear and Iremember thinking this if it's
not clear or I hear something,I'm going to retreat back into
the kitchen.
I'm going to anticipate thathe's going to come in and I'm

(09:41):
going to.
This would be the frying panstrategy.
Right, I'm going gonna look fora frying pan or something and
try to zonk him when he comes in.
You know, hoping that that'splan b, hoping that's not the
case.
But I got back out there, Ilistened, I looked around.
I didn't hear anything, Ididn't see anything.
I ran immediately, sprinted outthe front door, I ran down the
street, was able to reunite withuh, with my wife.
So you, you know, you talkabout like in extremis.

(10:05):
Everything that you guys sawcame back to me in that
application, and not not becauseI remembered it all, but
because I had been doing it on aregular basis, including that
night.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
So that's, that's a couple of things, a couple of
things that anybody, yeah, goahead Real quick.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
So one that's an incredible story and there's a
lot.
I think we're going to jumpinto that and I appreciate you
for sharing it, because it'salways not a good feeling when
you're in a gunfight and youdon't have a gun and you were
unaware that this gunfight wasgoing to happen.
Right, it's one thing if youknow your, your army Ranger,
like actually Ranger bat, and soyou know you, you you have some
of that, but that's not reallywhat you're relying on in any of

(10:54):
this, right, so you have someexposure, which I love.
Your wife goes hey, was thatfireworks, was that?
And you're like, no, no, thatwas definitely not Right.
So there, you got some thingsworking against you, but I did
want to hit two things realquick that you hit up when
you're talking about your introOne with I didn't want to gloss
over because we'll get into it alittle bit later, but your work
at New York City Department ofCorrections and training
programs and implementing newpolicy and procedures.
I mean, I don't have muchexperience in New York City, but

(11:17):
I grew up in Chicago andunderstanding how politics work
and how different influencersand to get stuff done is like I
would rather go work with theyou know different clans in
Afghanistan and try to get themto do something that I would
going into New York city andtrying to get everyone on the
same page.
And then the other thing youtalk about like the hey, I wish
I'd met you guys sooner.
That's similar to like what mymy wife says to me sometimes I

(11:39):
wish I'd met you sooner becausethen I was younger and I
wouldn't have settled for you.
So I understand kind of likewhere you're going with that,
but buyer's remorse.

Speaker 3 (11:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Pre-event indicators yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
So go ahead, greg, let's jump into it.

Speaker 2 (11:57):
I think it's funny that Brian and I parallel our
thinking a lot.
So the first comment I wrotedown is Brian's first comment,
which sounds like gunshots.
You would be surprised at howmany times we're doing a
post-incident interview andpeople say, well, it sounded
like balloons or a carbackfiring, and it never.
The context and the relevancewere all screwed up.
What happened is, you know,your system said I don't want to

(12:20):
believe this is in progress,and certainly your wife's did.
But then you quickly realizedhey, in this context that's most
likely gunfire, based on anumber of factors.
Second part was I'd never heardof Rikers Island having such a
robust program run by an inmate,so you're to be applauded for

(12:42):
that, doing that in generalpopulation.
While you're in sconce there,nobody gets to go home.
Exactly, I'm joking there,folks, it was a great
accomplishment.
And then the final one folksnotice.
I want you to draw yourattention to Dan's story.
He abandoned his wife for theentire section because she
hadn't attended the training,and then he gets reunited with
his wife once things have calmeddown and they're safe.
So, dan, how did that work outfor you?

Speaker 3 (13:04):
How did that conversation go, oh my.

Speaker 2 (13:06):
God, I can imagine being a fly on a wall for that
one, thanks you assholes.

Speaker 3 (13:10):
Thanks a lot, guys.
Yes, exactly, I'm glad yourtraining helped you be more
survivable in this instance.

Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yeah, she has another .

Speaker 3 (13:18):
Her side in coming out of this was actually there
was a rectangular bar.
I ended up going around oneside and ended up in the kitchen
.
She went around the other sideand started the gunman.
So her side of the story isthat the gunman is looking for
this guy, but he's brandishinghis weapon.
You look behind you and that'sthe person you see.

(13:38):
So you're right, that wasn't apleasant conversation.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
So go there for just a minute, because here's the
problem with the charlatans,here's the problem with the glad
handers that are all overtalking about the types of hey,
you know, I once led my wife tothe store, so now I'm a
leadership consultant.
What's going to happen isthey're going to look at the
story and they're going to say,yeah, it would be nice to
believe if it was true.
Okay, so were the police called?

(14:04):
Was it an actual shooting?
What did you find out about thecase afterwards that solidified
your resolve that this was a noshit incident that you were
involved in in real time?

Speaker 3 (14:16):
Sure, I can send anyone the articles if they want
one.
They've got pictures outside ofafterwards and that people
nearby took pictures and me andmy wife are in the pictures
outside.
But yeah, they did come.
They cordoned it off.
The police came, they weresearching.
They actually found the weapon,they found the assailant and
that case is proceeding throughthe judicial system.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
And was somebody injured during this shooting?

Speaker 3 (14:41):
No, there were shots fired.
Oh, I'm sorry, I apologize.
Yes, yes, big one actually.
So one of the reasons that theyhad blocked the other door was
because they were getting readyto charge cover and so there was
a single standing line.
So as we attempted to exit,there's a young lady standing
immediately on the outside ofthe sidewalk.
She was shot in the head.
Yeah, so I just mean tointerrupt.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
And the reason I brought that up, dan, is I'm
familiar with the case and theidea was that you only glossed
over that because, again, youwent down and in Okay, the up
and out was all the things thatwere happening externally, and
the idea was that your focus ledyou to safety and your wife
instead latched on like alamprey to the shooter and

(15:24):
followed the shooter around.

Speaker 1 (15:27):
I'm not saying it was a bad strategy.
Exactly Now in the longer termof evolution.

Speaker 3 (15:35):
You get what?
I'm trying to say I don't haveto run the fair right.

Speaker 1 (15:39):
I don't want your wife hating me Right there if
I'm stuck in that situation.
I want to pick a side.
I mean, whose side are youpicking right there in the right
, right there?
If I'm stuck in that situation,I want to pick a side.
I mean, whose side are youpicking right?

Speaker 2 (15:46):
there and if I'm running alongside the gunman,
I'd say you're misunderstood,you get what I'm trying to say
that guy deserved it.
I'm telling you.

Speaker 3 (15:54):
I'm just saying yeah the most surreal moment is when
I turn around in the kitchen Isee I recognize that the guy in
there with me is the one beingpursued.
He sees me, me, we make eyecontact and he says we got to
get out of here.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yeah, exactly.
The understatement of the year.

Speaker 1 (16:11):
Yeah, he's already trying to co-opt other people.
We're in this together.
It's like dude, I don't knowyou, that guy ain't looking for
me, bro, yeah, so you're goingup on a stage to speak you, so
you're going up on a stage tospeak.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
You got the audience.
That's ready.
It's the luncheon for thejournalist, all that other stuff
.

Speaker 3 (16:29):
And you notice you got toilet paper hanging from
your shoe.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
Well, that's exactly the same feeling you get when
you check your six in thekitchen and you find out that
the guy's fleeing from thegunman.
It's latched to you.
Think of the luck, think of thegravity, the inertia that had
to occur, that both you and yourwife were just out for a drink,
and all of these situationshappened.
And see, the problem sometimes,dan, is that when we teach

(16:52):
military and when we teachpolice and those folks are used
to getting in a scrum you hadzero expectation of scrum.
When you went out, you weregoing to a bar, it was a local
bar, you were going to have somedinner and you know what.
The shit happened around you andtherefore involved you and
Brian and I try to tell that toa lot of people whether you're a
teacher or whether you're astudent, or whether you're HR or
anything else, these are theincidents that you're really

(17:14):
training for the jack in the box.
That's completely unexpected.
So when you gave yourself areport card because you're an
intellectual and an academicwhen you gave yourself a report
card, what did you like?
What didn't you like?

Speaker 3 (17:28):
Well, I'll say, and so I say, just to be accurate, I
don't consider myself anacademic per se, but I consider
myself somebody that'sinterested in the body of
research that's out there andhow it can be applied as a
practitioner.
So that's just, that's myperspective.
What I would say is Idefinitely afterwards see that

(17:49):
the proverbial walls wereclosing in on me.
I did not remain completelyprefrontal cortex.
Oh, that's this, that's this,that's this.
And in fact, I could feel in asense that your limbic system
saying like, all right, buddy, Igot it, this is my time.
I'm saying like, just hold on,I can, I can handle this, I can
handle this.
So what I liked was that Imanaged to stay, even though the

(18:12):
probably my, my world or thefocus came in, that I managed to
stay, processing it from aprefrontal standpoint.
That's, that's a big thing.
Now, where did I?
Where did I go wrong or what?
I completely lost visibilityand awareness of my wife,
absolutely, and we talked aboutthat.
So so I don't, and I, I, Idon't know where that came from,

(18:33):
or maybe you guys can helpexplain, but that's the biggest
one, right, there was still apart of me that fled, only
thinking about, you know, mysurvival, let's say, and I would
have loved to have said,grabbed her and said hey, come
with me, we're going this way.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
So that's the part where I say you know, I think,
it's interesting because I thinkyou have the myth of the
prefrontal cortex and, Dan, I'mnever going to second guess you,
I wasn't there.
But the idea is that youthought that you were still in
control and making decisions,and I would tell you that's what
you reflected upon, I would say, in the moment your limbic was
in full operation.
And then, when you had the giftof time and distance afterwards

(19:10):
and you reviewed it in yourhead, you said oh, here's where
I made a choice.
I think part of the proof Iwould offer for that is the fact
that you did in fact abandonyour wife.
Let's not play this episodeforever.
But the idea is there when wethink about this who's the most
important person in our universewe are.
It's not our baby, it's not ourwife, it's not our dog.

(19:31):
Everybody loves to think that.
But again, those are points ofreflection.
In the moment, the idea is thatyour survival system is geared
towards you.
Okay Now, larger allegory ofthe cave.
Of course I want my tribe tosurvive, but not in warfare.
That's hand to hand In warfare,that's hand to hand.
If I don't survive, my seeddoesn't go forward.

(19:52):
And at that exact moment, youare on impulse power, you are
down and in, you are completelyon an internal and you were in
survival mode.
So later, when things calm down, and now, months later than the
incident, you reflect upon itand what do you do?
You give yourself the JasonBourne.
Well, clearly, I'd let everyoneinto safety and I was the one

(20:12):
playing the violin on the deck.
No, no, and that's not an insult, Dan.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
That's how we process critical incidents and to
archive it so we don't driveourselves crazy.

Speaker 3 (20:22):
How you justify your own behavior right.

Speaker 2 (20:23):
Exactly because you don't want to say I was scared,
shitless and I peed a little,you don't want to ever do those
things.
Right Now you would do that inthe moment in there with that
guy you know in the kitchen.
Go, holy shit, I'm peeing, okay, but you're not going to do

(20:44):
that.
An hour additional trainingthat you received from the U S
army and from the Ranger bat andfrom you know your time on
Rikers and all those otherthings.
They helped inform your limbic.
So when you went full on limbic, those experiences came to the
forefront Exactly Instead of oneyou had three, you know, so
totally agree.

Speaker 3 (21:05):
Brian, I don't feel like you can tell me this is
maybe a limbic system is takenover, right, whatever, and but
you're still getting some datais?
I recall, even when so I fled,but I knew I wasn't fleeing away
necessarily, I had a target inmind.
Let's say, when I came out,realized I had a dead end, I
knew I had to, I had another.

(21:26):
If then, I, I'm going to dothis and if then and if not, so
tell me.
Is that part of the conscious?
Because it made sense making Ihad to go out and sample, right,
right, but stop for a minutethinking stop thinking like an
intellectual for just a secondand think like a Neanderthal.

Speaker 2 (21:42):
Take a giant evolutionary step back.

Speaker 1 (21:44):
Where in your story this is right?
No, no.

Speaker 2 (21:47):
Hold on.
Where in your story did the?
Oh, by the way, the girl gotshot in the head.
Oh, by the way, the guy withthe gun was running next to my
wife behind the other side ofthe bar.
Those things were afterthoughts.
You know why they wereafterthoughts Because you had
lived them and they're no longerrelevant to the survival steps
you took previous to them.
Do you get what I'm trying tosay and your brain is in a loop

(22:07):
that's not going to go back tothose points until later, until
the survival was taken care of,and now you have to become the
hero of your own story.
Do you get what I'm trying tosay?
Because if you don't controlthe narrative, you feel
powerless, and that's why itcame off.
Oh yeah, yeah, by the way, shewas shot in the head.
Oh yeah, my wife.
I found her outside why I didn'tdescribe them on my initial

(22:28):
narrative Precisely because itwould have been a story had you
done it at the beginning, and Iwould have been suspect.
I would have been suspect.
Was he really there, or is thissomething he read?
Was he across the street at acafe?
But that's the way the brainworks, and so those things were
deeper.
Do you get what I'm trying tosay in your unconscious mind?
And didn't show up until later.
So good training is going toallow you to reflect on those.

(22:51):
So an instructor-led AAR afterthe incident would have been
much more helpful than a Dan-ledAAR after Dan's incident.
Because then you are going tobuild those moats and walls and
barricades and barriers, andthat sometimes inhibits learning
.
So if you're a cop out thereand you're listening to me and

(23:12):
you think you just got involvedin a scrum and you think that
you can survive it withoutexternal intervention, you're
wrong.
You need peer review.
This is where, the only time,I'll advocate peer review.
You'll also need a professionalto unpack some of those things
and you'll have to go back to atrainer and go here's the
choices I think I made, andhere's the actual choices I made

(23:32):
.
Where's the disconnect?
Do you get what I'm trying tosay, because now, if you had to
relive that incident, dan, thinkof all your things you would
have done differently.
You did great.
You did great in the survivalsituation.
Everything was wonderful.
But those things that youthought about afterwards now
would have been considerations.
You would have earlier armedyourself even with a street tool
.

(23:52):
Yeah, even when.

Speaker 3 (23:53):
I went back into the kitchen, I didn't grab a frying
pan.
Initially there were knives andthere were tools.
Right, Exactly yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:59):
And you never interviewed the guy.
You would have done a briefstreet interview, grabbing him
and going what am I up against?
Is there five of them or one ofthem?

Speaker 3 (24:05):
Do you see those type of things that we're talking
about now?

Speaker 2 (24:09):
So training becomes an in-progress loop and it
becomes an update.
So so you can't walk away fromthat and just tell the story
without each time you tell themthe story, you're making some
shit up.
But what are the key takeawaysthat I can learn to make myself
stronger?
Right, and in two years thatstory is going to take on a life
of its own.
You know, you had the chokingbaby that you had to contend

(24:29):
with and all that other stuff.
That's just how our memoryworks.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
Each time you visit, you're in the kitchen Exactly.
Fire back there.

Speaker 2 (24:37):
The shooter was after you.

Speaker 3 (24:38):
You get what I'm trying to say, I think it's this
order that was still on the onthe skillet.
Yeah Well you, you neverbrought up what you drank.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
You never brought up what you ate.
You never brought up those why?
Because they're ancillary tothe central point and your
amygdala doesn't give a shitabout those Right.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
And that would take a long time.
That highlighting that point iseven like oh yeah, actually a
woman was shot in the head.

Speaker 2 (24:59):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (25:04):
Jesus, dan, that's the most chaotic part of getting
at too is like that is acompletely normal way to think.
I'm sure if your wife had endedup in the kitchen with you, you
would have been able to say,all right, babe here, stay
behind me or do this or go overthere.
But it didn't, and you didn'thave control of those
circumstances.
She goes left, you go right.
Well then, that's it.
It evolves, and if thatconnection isn't made right away

(25:25):
, then you're both of yourbrains and because she I
guarantee she wasn't thinking ofwhere's Dan?

Speaker 2 (25:31):
She was thinking of how do I get out of here you
know, what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
So so I it's, it's, it's very powerful how that
stuff happens.
And then Greg brought up a goodpoint, that sort of reflecting
on something.
It's tough reflecting asyourself, because it's only
everything's going to comethrough.

Speaker 2 (25:45):
You know my, it's my internal baseline and how I want
to see myself, and part of thatisn't?

Speaker 1 (25:50):
you know, people think, like you know, one being
an eyewitness.
You know, giving an eyewitnesstestimony is you're, you're
never going to be very accurate,even when you're trying really
hard.
Right, and so people, then youknow, your story changes so you
can cope with it.
Your brain's doing that for you.
You're not, you're not tryingto embellish or negate something

(26:15):
wrong that you did, you're justyour brain's going ah, let's,
let's remember it this way,cause that's an easier way to
process it.
And then, depending on whathappens, you know, if, like you,
you, you, that that couldcorrupt you even more, oh, my
God, I didn't do enough.
And now I have PTS from itbecause I have some sort of
survivor's guilt.
I mean, that's how that stuffkind of starts to take place,
and you don't really have a sayin it in the moment, but you
kind of do as a, as a, as areflection point.
And so I was, like Greg, your,your point of you know that, uh,

(26:35):
an AAR led by someone this isalmost why, like you know, a
police officer asking youquestions about it, okay, well,
when then?
Then let's walk through then.
Where did you go next Then?
Then, oh, now it's coming backbecause you're replaying it in
your mind, versus you justtrying to.
Hey, let me write up mystatement and send you what
happened.
It's like well, no if I lead youthrough it, I'm going to get
better information out of youand you're going to be able to

(26:57):
recall more, so this is a goodpoint.

Speaker 2 (27:08):
And Brian too.
To that end, Brian and I workedon a number of studies that
were with ONR and ARI, ArmyResearch Institute and Office of
Naval Research A lot of thestuff that had a fringe that
went to suicide and Brian workedwith me on those programs.
And then it went to PTS andBrian worked with me on those
programs and we were fromcompletely, vastly different
backgrounds.
But the idea is what we weretrying to get at is how the
brain processed the informationand if you get a chance to
relive it in the moment and thencall attack, freeze and change

(27:30):
the outcomes and give yourselfdifferent options, your brain
likes that.
Your brain likes to understandnow that, hey, there's Waldo,
you know solving the Sudoku,Because if not, you're
constantly second guessing thoseand undermining your own
choices.
And, Dan, that's a primaryreason that Brian and I didn't
push.
We waited till you were readyto relate that story, to put it

(27:51):
on the show.
Had we done it too close?
There were times that you andyour wife didn't want to talk
about it, and you certainlydidn't want to talk about it and
you were becoming emotionalover it.
And you know what.
We're not going to get anythinggood out of that.
So, let's give it the time toheal and then let's unpack and I
like unpack because afteraction review I get it, but I
feel so clinical Right, but whatwe're doing is just unpacking

(28:14):
the incident from differentperspectives.
Have you been to thatrestaurant since you know?

Speaker 3 (28:18):
I mean, okay, I made it a point to go to that
restaurant.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
That's brilliant.

Speaker 3 (28:22):
And to walk through those steps, I sat in the same
and I'm going to sit in theexact same place.
Yes, absolutely within a week.
But there was some resistancefrom my wife to ever go back.
Why do we ever?
Go back there and I said,because this is our narrative
and the narrative is not, as faras I'm concerned, not going to
be.
And then I never went backthere again.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
You own your narrative and you know that the
idea is that you took an activerole in your survival, so you're
a survivor, and that's hugelyimportant to revisit.
See, the one thing about goingto training is that if you never
use that training, is thattraining efficient?
Is it effective?
You know, has it built anythingother than your confidence?
And you're one of the fewpeople.

(29:04):
Look, I've been with coppersthat had a 30-year career, that
never drew their gun except on ashooting range.
Brian was with Marines whodeployed, who never saw combat,
as amazing as that seems.
Your story is now different,right?
So what are you going to dowith that?
And then, just my Brian.
I know you've got an additional, but my final question, dan,
for you to think about, and it'sa compound one that you don't

(29:26):
need to answer today what partsof the training that you
received do you remember justbeing right there at the
forefront?
Because if you were overwhelmedduring it, then none of the
training was sufficient.
Make sense.

Speaker 3 (29:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
I know the answer to thatalready and so I'll just say
this it's what you guys havesaid Start out with, just start
building the baseline, go outthere and start just just naming
things.
So we, you know, you guys, it'sbig concept of being you can't
be down and in the idea of, like, I'm on my cell phone I'm
thinking about what happenedyesterday did I leave the burner

(30:02):
on?
You know, that's all down andin, and if you're being, you
know you guys have said, ifyou're being up and out, if
you're naming things in yourenvironment and processing them,
then you can't be down in it.
You know, and and that's sothat is the thing that I had
been doing.
Oh look, that's a white car,that's a white car, that's a
Hyundai, it's a white car,that's a Hyundai, that's a late

(30:22):
model, that's a white Hyundai,late model, hyundai, late model.
Oh shit, there's somebody inthat car.
You know, like that's that.
So I was so on that night, the,the geographics, we'll say, were
static, like I, I like.
So when I came, like when I wasmaking my reactions, I already
knew the door was locked, forexample.

(30:43):
So I knew I had limited egress,the and the reason.
I didn't think, you know, itwas so calm.
I didn't think it was like abig gun battle at any point,
because people would havecleared the streets had there
been like multiple gangs, right,it would have been a different
atmospheric shift.
Let's say so.

Speaker 1 (30:58):
That's why I was going to say that, like there
wasn't like gunfire back andforth, there weren't people
screaming everywhere, therewasn't loud other commotion.
It was like almost these singlestatic thing, that like each
thing kind of sound running thisalmost linear, so like there is
a little bit of time in there.
So you didn't get thatoverwhelming feeling so that, so
that it didn't feel like therewere some oh, this is it like

(31:20):
we're?

Speaker 3 (31:21):
I'm done here right, it wasn't like an external
stampede, right, you say holyshit, it was actually just
internal to the bar, triggeredby that one person.
If I was outside I might havethought, huh, it sounds like
there's something going on in inthat bar, but the atmospherics
outside, where there was verygentle wave, let's say so.
So, greg, what, what and Iwould say to anybody that's

(31:43):
picking this up is, if you'rebuilding the baseline, you may
think like, oh, I don't know thewhole thing, I don't know the
whole thing, I don't know thewhole system, but every little
bit helps.
And if there were six thingsthat I need to know on that
night, I already knew three ofthem because I was just doing it
actively, I was activelyprocessing those things that you
guys are teaching, and sothat's the part that made it

(32:06):
less of a load to actually makemy decisions.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
So let's talk about that.
Let's talk about reducingcognitive load and not resorting
to discovery learning.
When you witnessed them lockthe back door, that was
significant to you.
Not only did you recognize it,you noticed it, but you had a
level of interest.
I wonder why they're doing that.
And then you solve for X bysaying oh, I see they're going
to have one point of entry sothey can charge, because it's

(32:32):
later in the day.
All that stuff happened innanoseconds, and the reason that
, that's Creating an explanatorystory For that robust,
fidelity-filled baseline.
That's a thing that you learnhow to do and then you become
better at it.
Imagine the discovery learningof you going back and finding
out that door was locked whileyou were running.
Now we're going back at thejack-in-the-box and everything

(32:55):
is popping up, and now guesswhat that does to your feedback
loop.
Now you've got inhibitionswithin the building and now
you've got classic obstructionsto overcome within your own
story.
And guess what.
You're now on plan C trying toupdate as quickly as you can,
and that gunfire is comingcloser.
The idea is that it didn't haveto be.

(33:15):
For somebody, that was a fatalevent, it didn't.
And for somebody else, they'regoing to go to jail for a good
long time.
And for a couple of people,they're going to be so
traumatized their life is goingto be different.
So just because it was that andnot an armed Sinaloa cartel
shootout doesn't mean it wasless significant.
And the idea is what can welearn from this training and

(33:35):
these events?
To pay forward for the nextperson that might go through the
looking glass, because that'swhat this is, I mean you would
have never anticipated.
Ever.
Say hey, baby, before we go outtonight.
Remember our rally point isDairy Queen, across the street.
That's how I operate, that'show Shelly operates, all the
time and everybody goes.
That's so weird.
And the talking part of it.

(33:56):
I learned that from Jack Webblate 50s, early 60s, black and
white training when I was goingto the police academy.
Jack Webb would sit in thepassenger seat of a scout car
and go.
As you're driving around, jackWebb, folks from the Dragnet
series and from but Jack Webbwould go, guy in the steps, look
at this, he's walking out ofthe store, his hands are free.
Hey, there's a guy with asuitcase.

(34:16):
He's walking across, he'sgetting in a cab and he would
narrate while he was going.
And people are going.
Wow, that's situation overloadFor me.
It's not For me.
When Brian and I are together,we're constantly doing that and
Dan, you've witnessed that.
You've Can't talk.
I'm pointing, and then we'reacknowledging those things in an
environment One.
It makes life so much more fun.

(34:37):
Okay, and the second thing isthat level of awareness makes
sure that you're not caught offguard.
You did things, evenunconsciously, that helped you
succeed through this incident.
Where's the exit?
Where am I sitting?
Those things, everybody doesthat, you know.
But then you said why is thatguy locking the door?
What are those sounds outside?
Does that you know?
But then you said why is thatguy locking the door?
What are those sounds outside?

(34:57):
Why is this guy running?
You've seen people run before,dan, but what was different
about his running?
You said the look in his eyes,what was different about that?
And you've met thousands ofRikers Island inmates that have
gone through all kinds of prison, wallet experiments and stuff.
So you knew those kinds oflooks, yeah, and you knew what
those meant.
So the idea is that you, usingyour intimate knowledge of a

(35:17):
situation and the training andusing the situation at hand to
say I have anomalous behavior inprogress and therefore it
drives my decision.
And guess what?
This isn't an ML.
I can see by the people runningand hiding.
It's not a most likely courseof action.
So what does this mostdangerous course of action mean
to me now, at this time and atthat place?
And this is the first time I'veheard the entire story.

(35:41):
I've only heard pieces of it andit just becomes abundantly
clear that you're the right kindof person for this.
This training enhanced what youalready have, naturally, and
took you to that next level.

Speaker 3 (35:53):
Well, I'll say you know my wife, it's my wife,
she's.
She's a New Yorker, she grew upthere, she's.
She's very good at this type ofstuff innately.
She, just she, she has it to me.
Almost some of these, thesecues, might I might have missed
them before, from an aptitudestandpoint, I think, when we
talk about creating like aframework, that's, that's where

(36:18):
you know what, what you do, whatthe two of you guys do as
experts, is you have thisframework right, you have this
model, and that's why it's soeasy to pick these things,
because it's your thousandthinstant.
But even having a framework toslot this in and be able to
start practicing it givescoherence.
I would say it gives languageto something that doesn't have a

(36:39):
name initially.
So it's almost like when welearn emotions, we say oh, we
eventually learn like I'm angry,I'm sad.
We associate labels to ourinternal states and when I think
about this, that's what it is,it's given me language to
process and label internalstates, to allow me, in a sense,

(37:00):
to communicate with myself,right and then and then say
that's this, that's this, that'sthis, that's normal or it's
typical, that's not typical.
I pay attention to this.
So I'm a very process drivenperson and for anyone else is
that that is.
It's like it gives you thetemplate to just start plugging
in and practicing.
And you know, I I'll seesomebody get out of the car, or

(37:22):
she's out, she's has flip flopson and she's got her keys in her
hand.
So where's my explanatory story?
I think that she's going to,potentially, a coffee shop
within a block and she'splanning on coming right back,
because otherwise, why she keepher keys in her hand?
And I look at her shoes, I saythose certainly aren't walking
shoes, and so I create, and sothat's just it.
So, but it's a, it's an entireframework that that anyone,

(37:46):
including a person like me who'snot a public safety individual
right, I'm not out there on thefront lines doing that work, but
it shows that it's applicablebecause it's it's human, it's
human behavior, it's we're,we're, we're all the same in
these critical ways, and youjust got to spend enough time to
to practice recognizing itafter you've been taught.

Speaker 1 (38:08):
Yeah, this is.
Did you have anything?

Speaker 2 (38:10):
Cause I I very, very briefly on Dan's comment.
Brian, listen, dan, one of thethings I got a huge arguments
with ONR and ARI and all theother think tanks.
I take KSAs and I make themKSAs to the third.
So it's knowledge, skills andattitudes, aptitudes and
abilities.
And most say knowledge, skillsand abilities.

(38:32):
Yeah, I get that.
But the idea is your attitude isa survival mechanism, okay,
your aptitude and attitudecombined to reinforce your
abilities and either help you orbecome that anchor to draw you
back.
And so when you train the wholebrain, you train the whole
person.
You know anger and and and fearand love are so closely linked

(38:56):
that your brain can't tell thedifference.
Your brain understands that.
There's an electrochemicalneurotransmitter that's saying
now go, look, watch, and that'swhy we're drawn to watching
people fighting or watchingpeople fornicating.
There's a cultural imperative,there's a survival mechanism
triggered in our brain that goesway back to the earliest days,

(39:18):
and so training has tounderstand that, because if not,
you're just flipping tires andclimbing the rope, you're just
putting rounds down range, andthat's not enough.
It may feel like enough, youknow, but that goes back to the
argument.
Well, 10,000 reps and that's allhorse shit.
10,000 reps, 10,000 steps Allthese are are things that people
make up to make themselves feelbetter.

(39:39):
But you got to go back.
You got to take a giantevolutionary step backwards and
see for yourself what works andwhat doesn't.
Right.
That's priceless.
That really is Sorry, brian.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
Yeah, no, I, I.
This is I appreciate yousharing the story and kind of
being able to break it down thatway and, like I said, this is
the first time I heard it all,but I did want to get to kind of
some of the other stuff youtalked about in your intro and
kind of what you're doing withus.
So you know, you're what webrought on, dan as the vice
president of training,innovation and performance,

(40:11):
right?
So you have this background ininstructional design and human
performance technology and youknow, typically in my
experiences with sector and howthey were talking about it and
most of what I learned, I waslike, okay, this is
well-intentioned and this isbullshit, or it's not going to

(40:44):
work, or this isn't training andthis is all theoretical based.
And you're saying it's almostlike I have a with, like when
they're going oh well, we got to.
You know you need better mentalhealth and that'll help out.
It's like, well, okay, like yes, I'm all for everyone getting
better mental health and how wetalk about it, absolutely, but

(41:05):
what the fuck does that have todo with the mission of your
organization?
What you do?
It doesn't like.
You know what I'm saying.
It's like maybe some of themental health reasons, because
you have shitty leadership andthey're not being managed and
led correctly and so peoplearen't feeling incentivized and
they're down on their jobbecause of all these issues over
here, not because there'ssomething wrong with their

(41:25):
fucking mental health.
You know what I'm saying, butthat's just one example that's
popped my head.
But you have this wholebackground in this in structural
design, human performance,technology, and when we first
started meeting and talking,there was a lot of stuff that we
really, really agreed upon atsort of a philosophical level
about training and abouteducation, learning and
performance and measurement andwhat these conversations you and

(41:48):
I have been having you knowthat are like I mean, it's mind
numbing.
I really have to like all right, dan, I'm done, I got to go
lift some weights now.
Because that's too much.
I actually woke up in mentalsweat as well.
Is that the dictionary you'rereading?
No, but it's really good andyou're deliberate and you ask

(42:10):
great questions and you cutthrough bullshit because you
want to get to that point,because everything has to have a
purpose and meaning and areason in a sense, and it's all
tied to what your performance is.
It's not tied to how you did onthe fucking test.
I don't care what your multiplechoice test was wrong, I care
if you did it correctly.
I don't care if you rememberedthe word I use.
Did you make the right decisionand were you able to articulate

(42:33):
it?
And that's what it comes downto.
And so there was, there was alot of that that we agreed upon
and cause.
There's a lot of really, reallywell-intentioned, poor training
out there, and that's the my,my, the most you know a a
political, nonpartisan way tosay it.
And it's just like there's a lotof people wasting a lot of time

(42:57):
and I feel bad because theythey really want to make a
change and they're really tryingto do good, but they don't know
.

Speaker 3 (43:01):
So you're bringing in this outside capability and
you're you're a little skepticalis what I hear up front.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
Well, yeah, yeah, up front, like I am with everything
, though, like it's like okay,we'll fucking prove it.
and then the way you talk about,I was like, oh no, dan gets it,
he just has a way betterlexicon and a way better
understanding of how to explainit to an organization and to a
person in charge and to this,than I can, because I have my
own experience and my tacitknowledge where I can say, yes,

(43:27):
I agree with that, but I can'talways tell you why, because I
just go well, I just fuckingknow that's going to work and
your shit sucks and it's likewell, you can't, obviously I
don't.
I don't say that to peopleunless it reaches a threshold
where they pissed me off.
But that takes a lot, right,but, but, but you know, I, I,
you.
What I'm getting at is I wouldlike you to talk about that
background and what you bring tothe, to the, to the table here,

(43:48):
and what that means and howimportant it is to look at these
sort of outcomes based on whatyou're going with and starting
with that, versus oh, this iswhat I think happened.
So let's get you know, the newthing on our web belt to put on
there, or the new computersystem, or the new camera, right
, it's like we go to thosethings, but we go to those

(44:09):
things with the G right, becausewe can point to them, but you
start from a completelydifferent kind of place.
So I'd like you to kind of talkto listeners about what that is
and about you know your processand how you do it.

Speaker 3 (44:21):
Sure, I think that's.
So.
There's a couple of things youmentioned that I think are
relevant here.
In one human, what is humanperformance improvement?
Human performance improvementis kind of a an umbrella.
It a research-based body ofevidence that includes training
but also includes a number ofdrivers that are
performance-based.
So, and it starts always withlooking at an organization and

(44:44):
the job role and then the tasksand responsibilities within that
.
So that's where you start, andI think typical training starts
in reverse.
It starts they've got learningobjectives, training objectives,
and then somehow from therethey're going to try to fit it
into performance if they can,and then organizational outcome.
It just doesn't work that wayand I think also they don't.

(45:05):
Even traditional learning anddevelopment doesn't have a
proficiency-based lens.
They have more of a developmentlens, right, like here's some
information, or you're going togo digest it.
They have more of a developmentlens, right, like here's some
information, or you're going togo digest it and it's going to
manifest in some way.
Well, I look at it as an HPTdoes, as kind of a third party,
third party system.
In the same way, k through 12is you send someone to training

(45:28):
and, just because you know, myeight-year-old comes back and
says you know, second grade isawesome, like, what did you do?
Like, well, we just we havefree time a lot.
We're like well, that's not,that's not why I'm sending you
to school.
I'm sending you to school tolearn to read and write.
You know these proficienciesright.
And so HPT takes that sameapproach.
Actually, we look at thestakeholders.
The person going to trainingcertainly is a stakeholder, but

(45:51):
they're not the sponsor, let'ssay so.
Our, our whole perspective isfrom an organizational
perspective.
What is this person's job, whatare they supposed to be
performing and what does goodlook like?
Because then you can startlooking at well, how are you
measuring that?
And in a public safetystandpoint, they'll say, oh, you
know, I wish our, our, ourpolice reports were better.

(46:12):
These suck, I don't know whatthis even means.
Or our satisfaction scores withour customers, with our, you
know, the community.
We'd like them to be higher,we'd like to have less use of
force, et cetera, et cetera.
So once you start havingorganizational conversations,
they can point to metrics.
That will be that will informtheir performance, and those

(46:34):
things lead then okay, fromthere.
How does that involve the role,how does that involve the task?
How does that, and then theskill and the proficiency level.
One of the things that you alloffer is an expert based model,
so it's something that we canlook at, that's robust in the
sense that you can say, okay,for somebody that's new to the
field or new to the skill, whatis what is good look like, and

(46:55):
then somebody that's two yearsor four years in and it scales
from there and we have theability to adapt our
instructional processes.
So, big picture, that's whatwe're trying to do.
We're using learning as the toolor the medium, but it's not the
end.
The end is the performance, andwe start there and I think
that's fundamentally somethingthat's mirrored in the training.

(47:16):
And you all use a.
Whether you realize or not,it's a scientific approach,
right it's?
If this were true, then Ishould have this, this, this, to
be able to, you know, stack itup as evidence, and that's
that's exactly what we're doing.
We're we're coming up withthose metrics in advance, having
a conversation about desiredresults at the organizational
performance level and thensaying, okay, did we move the

(47:39):
needle or not?
And that is just.
You can't get there using atraditional instructional or
learning and developmentapproach.
So that's how I see, kind ofone of our differentiators and
why we can say we're anenterprise level solution in the
same way that getting a newsystem of cars or getting a new
computer system.
We are a human resource,enterprise capability.

Speaker 2 (48:03):
One argument I would make for all the street trucks
like me out there.
What Dan just said is show usyour work.
What he just said is that weshow our work and it doesn't
matter what the answer or theoutcome is.
It matters the process that yougot there, because then you'll
make better decisions.
Just said is that we show ourwork and it doesn't matter what
the answer or the outcome is.
It matters the process that yougot there, because then you'll
make better decisions and youranswers will become better
because you'll have that gift oftime and distance.
I love the way you put it.

(48:24):
The only argument I would make,dan, when you said what does
good like look like and gregspeak, I would say what does
good enough look like would befair.
Or what does right look like,because the expert model has to
set conditions right, becausetask condition standards.
I get it.
Yeah, you're, you're, you'reshowing me your process.

(48:46):
That doesn't guarantee outcomes.
That guarantees that theprocess will be followed right,
but the process has to havefeedback loops into the human
actor.
So that human knows where theyare along that process so they
can update that information andgo.
I'm on thinner ice than I was.
I got to take a knee, I got togo back, I got to take cover and

(49:08):
I've yet to see another program.
Well, I'll tell you what I'veseen, one that withstood my.
Tell you what I've seen, onethat withstood my not that I'm
anybody, but my rigorousstandard, and that was Arbinger.
So the cool thing about JackCaldwell is I knew of Jack
before I actually finally methim down in Texas and we both
didn't know each other and hecame up completely saying, okay,

(49:30):
so if this is where this systemstarted, I want to meet you and
Brian.
And how long did we spend,brian, talking to them,
unpacking where this has comefrom?
So, dan, your process isliterally epitomizing what it is
that we've tried to do.
By showing anybody that's abusiness owner, check writer or
wants to guarantee the legal,moral and ethical outcomes of

(49:50):
the unit you're showing them.
This is how it's done and itjust happens to be that our
system follows that and theparts of our system that didn't
you're going through andupdating now to ensure
compatibility.
Is that a fair assessment?

Speaker 3 (50:03):
Absolutely.
And one thing I would add tothat is that fundamentally we're
a criterion referencedorganization right.
So we have evidence andtraditional training is going to
send you to training for anhour or two hours or four hours,
and that's part of ourchallenge to helping
organizations on behalf of thepractitioner, that public safety
officer that's in there, thathim or her getting better at a

(50:25):
particular skill is not afunction of time, it's a
function of proficiency.
To that level of standardyou're talking about Greg, and,
and, and we can, because we canshow our math.
We can advocate for the.
Not longer.
Maybe sometimes it's shorter.
You don't need two days forthis, you only need a day.
But it's because you need tospend this much time on this.

(50:46):
They need to have anopportunity to to process it,
make sure that they'reunderstanding it and then get
some level of practiceproficiency before they go out
the door.

Speaker 2 (50:56):
It can't be just a certificate mill where you say
you were exposed to thismaterial for 40 hours, well,
that's wonderful.
But if there wasn't a rehearsaland a practice and an internal
thought process where you got toreflect on the training that
you were doing, those are allabsolutely essential to adult
learning and retention.

Speaker 3 (51:17):
Yeah, and learning education is only coming around
now and I mean there's just beenthis ton of work that you know
everybody.
You can see that people aregoal-based.
You see it in public safety.
Even officers sometimes thatcome in first will fill up the
back rows right.
So there's a strategy thereright, and it's based on their

(51:37):
experience.
I don't want to get called on,I don't want to be spotlighted,
I don't want to be embarrassed,right?
So they're coming around to theidea that, oh, these learners
are not just like, we can't justshove information down their
skulls.
We have to account for the factthat they're all thinking
people, right, they have agency,and unless we can develop
training in a way that showsthat they've processed it and

(52:01):
are able to show us that it'stheirs now, right, because, like
you said, you want them to beable, we're teaching people how
to be, how to thinkindependently, exactly, in
extremis, right?

Speaker 2 (52:13):
Exactly.
And Dan, you were there, brian,you were there too.
Remember coming out of theacademy and the first thing your
first FTO says forget everyfucking thing that you learned,
because you're on the street now.
And then you got out of FTO andyou're on the road with your
first senior vet partner.
Forget every fucking thing thatyou learned.
Hey, you're not at ParrisIsland anymore, marine, you know
you're in the shit.
The problem is that thosethings have to exist together.

(52:35):
If they don't exist together,then your knowledge isn't
experiential.
And and, yes, there's adifference between training and
education, but they have to bein line, because if they're not,
then your brain doesn'tunderstand that those goals are
aligned and therefore it's goingto jettison what it doesn't
think it needs an extremist.
And if you do that.
You're again with that gosh damnjack in the box.
All of of a sudden you're atthat back door, Dan, and it's

(52:56):
locked, and that's a fuckingshitty place to be.
That's not my business card bythe way.

Speaker 3 (53:02):
What you acknowledge is that people have choice, and
I've seen it now in the coursethat we have designed
opportunities for people todecide.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Actually, I do that.
I don't do that.
Yes, I'm willing to accept that.
So it's almost implicit in thecourse design that people come
in and, regardless of whetherwhat we're training is true or

(53:24):
not, they still have to bewilling to accept it if it's
going to be effective, and Ithink that's one of the being an
expert in the field yourself.
That's something that'simplicit in the training.
I think it's it's very powerfuland we see on day two and day
three, participants is one ofthe things I do is I sit at the
tables a lot and so what you'resaying is that I'm part of this

(53:49):
process or I'm partiallyresponsible for the outcome.
It's a rhetorical question andthe follow up question might be
like well, what makes you saythat?
But that's a great sign thatand we're putting in mechanisms
that's going to trigger forthose that are willing to start
having those conversations withthemselves.
So I think that's critical.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
Yeah, and your use of true.
Again, I'm a word guy, so youruse of true, whether it's true
or not, what that means is inyour Hoberman sphere, in your
brain, in your experience.
Whether you've had this happenor whether you understand this
knowledge, it doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter that you're awhite belt.
What you have to do isunderstand that other people
have had these experiences andtherefore, the artifacts and

(54:30):
evidence, you can cherry pickthose, you can create
experiences from them that youcan pay forward and and that
becomes a truth.
The lemon shark attack.
You know, I know my truth.
So the the idea is, when you gothere, exactly when you go
through and you're sitting withthem, they're telling you their
story and if their story alignswith the outcomes of the course,

(54:52):
and they can carry that backwith them and use it on the
street.
What a powerful timeexpenditure and what's the money
worth.
You know I don't know wherepeople come up with, how much
they charge, but you know we'renot charging enough and and you
know when, when we're in class.
It's proved to me every daywhen those people come up and go
hey, I remember you, I did this.
These things happen and Brianand I get inundated with emails

(55:14):
where people say I'm using thisevery day.
Nothing makes me more proud ofthe legacy that we've created
through the training, becauseit's not us, it's the training
and how far it can take anorganization.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
One of the things and maybe you can kind of help both
you, greg and Dan, but likewhat I will typically see and
this is like without gettinginto all the reasons why we do
it, you know, with withconfirmation bias and sort of
fundamental attribution errors,but we'll see okay, this person
is really good at their job.
You know they're this is theideal person, or this is what

(55:50):
they're.
And then we go well, what is itthat they do?
It's like well, man, they'renumber one on the PT test.
They can outshoot everyone.
They're the stud on the mat.
You know what I mean?
They can drive in reversebetter than I can drive forward,
right.
And so we look at those skillsand go okay, it must be these
things that we need to be moreproficient at.
And my thing is like yeah, thatperson's all great at that

(56:13):
stuff, but the PT standarddoesn't help you make better
decisions.
Yes, you want the better shapeyou're in, you can go into that,
but when we're talking about inextremis decisions, in a sense,
a lot of that kind of goes outthe window and isn't really
going to affect it.
It's.
Can you think through theproblem?
And when did you actuallyrecognize that you were even

(56:36):
having a problem?

Speaker 2 (56:37):
And are you thinking through the right problem?

Speaker 1 (56:39):
You're exactly right, and that's the thing, and so I
think there's a lot of and Iknow you brought that up when it
.
Well, how are you measuring it?
Because we'll see that we'relike, all right, we want to get
them to do this, we got them todo that, and then we're like,
okay, yeah, we can train peoplehow to do that and how to see
those things and betterarticulate it.
But, like, what are you lookingfor as an outcome?
What are you trying to measurehere?
It's like, oh well, we get allthese complaints from people

(56:59):
about this thing no-transcript,and I I'm not exactly sure where

(57:37):
the question is.
There's just my trying to wayof articulate like these are the
things we need to look at.
This is the problem.
That that's.
I understand that you thinkthat's happening every day,
because maybe it is, but butthat's actually not a
contributing factor to thisissue over here.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
Dan.
I'd like to go second and I'dalso like to bring to
everybody's attention.
Dan was on the advisory boardnot to glad hand us and pat us
on the back and tell us how goodwe were doing, but to step in a
room and go time out here.
Why did you say that?
Why was that slide used?
Where are you thinking?

Speaker 3 (58:14):
So, dan, you can be as critical as you want in your
response and I'll go second ifit's okay, sure.
So one of the things you said,brian, like the indicators of
what's happening, but I thinkwhat's really hard for
organizations and evenindividuals is to recognize that
what's not happening is also avalid form of measurement.
So if it's and sometimes yougot to be creative it's okay.
We had X number of pursuits andwe caught the bad guys or
whatever.
But if you say this, these twoofficers had the same number of

(58:35):
tickets and there's like one10th of the pursuits, so that
means nobody fled from them.
What are they doing?
That's containing the flight.
You know that that's also a wayto look at at at something, a
measure of effectiveness.
So so that's one thing.
It's it's really working with,even with like okay, greg,
you'll say sometimes, likepeople a lot of times have more

(58:58):
time than they think they do.
So kind of external, likegetting people to go deeper in
their thought process is iswhich which then says, oh, we
could use this as a measurement.
And the flip side of that intraining is I'm a big advocate
for quote, unquote, show yourwork, but I like to do it
visually.
So I'm a horrible artist, butimagine if you're training on

(59:18):
something and you're tellingpeople describing the key
components of a horse and yousay, okay, draw.
Everybody, it doesn't matterwhat it looks like, draw the
horse.
And they draw it Like I drawone with three legs.
And so when you walk up and youlook at the other, oh, that's
interesting, that's where's thefourth leg on this Right.
But what Brian said to me oncewas like I'm just glad that they

(59:39):
got three out of the four legs.
What are we talking about here?
So those are both validmeasurements, but done in a way
that's actually everybody canlook at objectively.
So I think those are a coupleof ways that we tackle
measurement.

Speaker 2 (59:54):
So let me go way off the res I know that's going to
surprise both of you to answerthe same question that Dan did,
and I'd love to show me yourwork reference, dan, because
we're right there together onthat.
So I had I don't know if it'sluxury of dealing with a lot of
battalion and brigade commandersin combat zones when they were
bringing back body bags and thenumber one thing about get D to

(01:00:17):
training early and often andmake sure that these people are
trained for the appropriateskills in combat, which a
cognitive portion is a hugepiece of that not just shooting
and killing and blowing thingsup and running and jumping what
they would do is they would say,no, you're right, reem, so this
is the guy I'm going to send totraining.
And I'd say this guy, you'refucking sending me this guy to
training.
Yeah, why?

(01:00:38):
Well, because I can't send thisguy.
He's my XO and he's tooessential to the mission.
And he can't send that guybecause these two guys are his
best squad leaders and they'redoing.
So what you end is you give methe sick, fucking lame and lazy.
Now they'll still learnsomething, but what's the impact
to your organization when theycome back?

(01:00:58):
So the measurement.
The longitudinal measurementhas to be.
What are the outcomes you'reseeing on the ground at your
agency when you've only had twoor three people that you sent to
the training?
Were they given enoughinformation to impact how things
were done?
Were they changing the cultureof your organization, and was it
for the better?
Where were the things that youdidn't even consider?

(01:01:20):
And all of a sudden you'reseeing a difference and you're
reading a difference and thecommunity is reacting
differently.
To me, that's the mostimportant thing.
So if you don't spend the moneyand if you don't send them to
training and if you're notsending the right people, then
reap the fucking whirlwind.

Speaker 3 (01:01:35):
And on top of that, I don't think that's so far off.
But when you look at CombatHunter, what was the imperative
for that, Greg?
When General Mattis says, hey,I need a program for this,
didn't he have a reason for it?
There were two major reasons.
There were two things.

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
Two major reasons.
One, it was the single mostkinetic part of battle and they
were losing the most Marinesever in their first contacts
when they were going over.
So he was doing a duplicitouseffort.
He wanted combat Back then itwas urban hunter.
But combat hunter.
He said Greg, I don't wantanybody going in and being
surprised by what they're seeing, even though they're going to a
different country that they'venever been to and they don't

(01:02:09):
understand the language.
And that was easy.
Okay, what you're doing issetting up the conditions to say
I don't want their firstcontact on the ground to be any
worse in combat than it was herein training before they went.
And that was exactly a mandateBrian got at the infantry.
Immersive training is that?
How can we prepare them?
And you know what?
People go down different avenuesthe smell generator hey, let's

(01:02:30):
get legless vets and have themflop around on the ground in the
blood and let's make noises andexplosions.
And those are all good things.
But you know what, at the endof the day, those are not as
much as giving me choices.
And if I have choices to slowtime down, if I understand that,
if I give myself a nanosecondhere and there, I'll likely come

(01:02:51):
to a better conclusion If Iunderstand that the artifacts
and evidence that are adding uparound me will give me a picture
of what I can expect at the endof it.
Those are all wonderful thingsand they start with curiosity
and they don't start withintellect, because sometimes we
don't get intellectuals.
Sometimes they don't hand mesomebody that's got a college
degree and that person has to bejust as prepared as the person

(01:03:12):
next to them that's a PhD to gothrough that door.
So that Mattis was, everybodysays, wrong.
So I've never heard him calledMad Dog and I'd like you to do
that to his face.
And then people talk about thewarrior monk.
Mattis was a thinker and Mattiswas a combatant commander that
wanted less body bags comingback and mattis would ask I'm

(01:03:33):
sorry, mattis would ask all thetime which part of this training
would you want your son ordaughter to take before they
deployed?
Was it that one?
Was it that training?
And you know what?
Overwhelmingly it was alwayscombat hunter.
It was always aset.
They wanted to go before theirtheir deployment.

Speaker 3 (01:03:48):
Sorry yeah, no, no.
You made great point, though,that it was a leadership
imperative with anorganizational outcome that
spurred the training whereknowledge was the intervention
or knowledge is what you needed.
You weren't sticking your handout saying who wants to come to
this training.
The senior leadership has saidthis is a priority and we have
metrics.
We have too many servicemembers dying.

(01:04:09):
Exactly, leadership has saidthis is a priority and we have
metrics.
We have too many servicemembers dying and dying because
of x, y and z, and I want you totrain, train to a performance
or criterion outcome.
Right.
So that's, and that's wherewe're at with.
We're saying this is not.
Hey, this isn't a greatworkshop.
Guys, glad you got great levelone course review.
Who cares?
Yeah, they want to beproficient, but you need to

(01:04:31):
understand, if you're a seniorleader, that this is fulfilling
your organizational missionExactly, with your staff, with
the tools and the knowledge theyneed to be able to effectively
and safely do their jobs outthere.
This isn't just like oh hey,this is a great workshop, this
is about fulfilling your mission.

Speaker 2 (01:04:49):
It's on both sides of the badge, it's on both sides
of the site, it's on both sidesof that community and it's got
to work from your person thatdoesn't believe in God to the
person that's at church everyday, to the lowest member of the
community that has the least tooffer the community and is
living in a box, all the way tothe chief operating officer from

(01:05:12):
the company.
It's got to be everything thateverybody can use anytime and
that's human to humaninteraction.
So if you start there and yousay, okay, here's the right
place to start and you sayhere's the likely outcomes we'd
want.
We want to build trust in thatcommunity, well, we want a safer
officer that's less likely touse force unintentionally.
We want to deliberately to takeand that's what Dan does folks,

(01:05:35):
if you wonder what Dan doeswith the organization, he gets
on there and he goes.
Why do you need us?
Why do you really want Arcadia?
Because this is what Arcadiabrings.
And if you're buying this, it'snot what you think it is, it's
not this other thing.
And I think that because we'reso deliberately purpose-built,
because we're bespoke for thatagency, we change stuff that we

(01:05:55):
do for that agency to make itpersonal to them, their
community, their leadership,their outcomes, and I think
that's different too.
And somebody's going to saywell, you know, a squared plus B
squared is also always Csquared.
Yeah, it is here, but when weget to Mars, shit gets a little
sketchy.
So the idea is that on your wayto the call, things change, and
if you're not updating thatshit, then you're going to

(01:06:17):
inevitably run into the man withthe gun, with your loaded gun,
and then you're going to say,wow, a number of people were
shot.
Fucking, surprise, surprise.
Can we change that?
And the idea is that everybodyright now wants to change the
culture of police work.
Now, what you want to do is youwant to update a human to make
them a better decision makerunder critical stress, and don't
you want that for your kid?

(01:06:38):
Don't you want your kid inschool to anticipate that shit's
going wrong at the lunch roomand come home?
That's the stuff we're talkingabout.
An advanced critical thinkingmindset is different than the
type of training that mostpeople are buying and most books
that people are investing in.

Speaker 1 (01:06:55):
Yeah, so Dan, I wanted to kind of be respectful
of your time and everything.

Speaker 3 (01:07:01):
Well, actually, I don't have to anymore, not
anymore.
I'm paying you now, so I don'thave to be respectful.
No, my calendar appears free,brian.

Speaker 2 (01:07:10):
I have minimum wage.

Speaker 1 (01:07:12):
So I I do like asking this to to different folks who
reach out, because we get a lotof very interesting people that
we've either met or listened tothe podcast or went through some
training and have a really inevery kind of different types of
background and what they'vedone and the experience level
and and so I always try to askhim I was like, well, what was
it?
Or was it something that?

(01:07:33):
What makes you so interested init?
Is it some key things that youheard or found or saw?
Or, now that you're reallygetting in, you know underneath
the hood and seeing everythingthat's in there in a sense.
But, like you know, we alwayscome across we call it early
adopters where they kind of haveit at hello, where they're like
, hey, there's something hereand I'm not in this world.
I mean, we were just on a callyesterday with someone very

(01:07:53):
similar, like, hey, I'm not fromthis world and I sat through
this course and I still gothrough my notes a year later
and do this.
So like I'm curious, is what it?
What sort of fascinates youmost about hpp rna?
Like, what, what is it thatkind of drew you in to be like,
hey, this is something I want toget heavily involved in,
because you have your ownbackground, experience and stuff
, and so you know it's like you.

Speaker 2 (01:08:14):
You chose this and said, no, this is for the money,
so don't, we'll know that lieright it's a lucrative field
working with you lucrative meansyou, you uh, eat what you kill.

Speaker 1 (01:08:28):
I get kill.
I get all the holiday andexpress points I could ever
imagine.

Speaker 3 (01:08:33):
Exactly, that's right .
Well, it goes back to a coupleof things.
It goes back to, I guess, mybackground.
Growing up we were middle classbut my parents were retired.
They were the first ones to goto.
They were the first ones tograduate from high school.
My father grew up my father's arancher.
He grew up in SoutheastColorado.
He lived in a one bedroom Adobehouse that my grandfather built

(01:08:57):
.
So you know, we come from likea humble mean.
So I think, especially after Igot in my mid thirties I was, I
was already thinking like I.
I, I have a limited amount oftime, I have limited amount of
resources.
What is most effective and thiscame down to the course, even
choosing instructional designversus educational psychology is

(01:09:19):
the way my counselors describedit.
One is descriptive and one isprescriptive.
So one, being kind of, explainsthe situation or tells you
what's going on, the other oneexplains how to do it.
It's procedural.
So I find, and then, workingthrough the last 12, 15 years,
most training is descriptive.
You're like oh, that was great,I'm more aware, I know about, I

(01:09:40):
know about this at a betterlevel, but it's not actionable,
it didn't give you, it didn'ttranslate into skills.
So this didn't.
I went to that training.
I went, I paid sometimes fortraining and I'm still not a
better.
I don't have a better salesapproach.
I don't have a better.

(01:10:02):
I can't, you know, do thisclaim any faster.
So I think my own worldview waswhat is training or learning, if
you think about it?
Is it's adaptation, right?
It's, when it comes right downto it, it's change for your
environment, it's fitness, andso along those lines, I find, or
like HBPRNA is a really like,is low.
On the bullshit factor.
It's not gonna pontificateabout why we're the way we are

(01:10:26):
so much or give any, it's justlow, slow bullshit, I would say.
And it's just the mechanics ofwhat we know actually works.
And it's put together in a waythat is accessible and we even
talk about access in training.
It's accessible, anybody canget to it and start using it
really really fast.
And the fact that it's stableand it's built on these

(01:10:48):
principles that we know are trueabout how humans behave.
And again, that it's stable andit's built on these principles
that we know are true about howhumans behave.
And again, like, there's allthese different theories, right,
but you guys focus on theautonomic system, that which is.
There's nobody's arguing aboutthat.
So, like all of it's, it's it's.
We talk about organizations thatare low sophistication, high
organization.
We're an example of that, in myopinion.

(01:11:08):
We're opinion, we're not.
You know, a lot of times peoplecome out of the training
they're like you know what?
I knew most of this stuffalready.
I never thought about it inthis particular way, but now
that I've combined in this way,I'm 10 times more effective or
my confidence level is so muchhigher now.
So to me it's.
I appreciate the fact that youguys have some humility.

(01:11:29):
You're not pretending to be orhave created something that
didn't somewhere peace existsbut you're saying, hey, here's
in this approach it works, andthe more I started digging into
it, or sense of purpose forhelping public servants, those

(01:11:51):
combined and say this can reallyhelp people and it's very
performance-based, which is mypersonal point of view,
professionally.
So these worlds kind ofcollided and I just said I have
a real calling in a sense ordesire to support what these
guys are doing.
So that's why I'm here.
I think that's a great answer.

Speaker 2 (01:12:09):
Brian, I'm glad we're recording this, so that's why
I'm here.
I think that's a great answer,brian.
I'm glad we're recording this.
And I want to add Dan, I'venever been accused of humility,
so actually hearing that word inmy name in the same sentence,
what a bombastic asshole I am.
But no, that's wonderful andit's noble.
And you know what, at the endof the day, folks, you've got to
understand that Brian and I andDan don't sit around a table

(01:12:30):
and pat each other on the backand go Harumph, that was
wonderful, harumph.
We're constantly adapting andmaking sure that what we're
bringing is the best, mostefficient cognitive model for
your brain, for your performance, and that's not easy to do.
People don't like beingintrospective, dan, people don't
like being told that their babyis ugly right.

Speaker 1 (01:12:50):
Yeah, we had.
What a 15-minute heatedconversation on one photo this
morning.

Speaker 2 (01:12:59):
Yeah, so we recorded this, followed by one where one
word threw us into a tizzy, butyou know what Isn't that
wonderful?
Remember the old murder boarddays in the military.
It's no different.
It's no different.
We're passionate because weonly have one chance to get it
right.
We only may see you one time,and some of this information is
going to be relevant to you.
Yeah, it's just too important.

Speaker 1 (01:13:19):
And I think that's why, I can't say it's right, the
stakes are too high.
Yeah, that's right.
I can't.

Speaker 3 (01:13:30):
I can't.
You know, this is only thesecond job.
When I was younger, I worked asa job placement person for
people with special needs, withadults with disabilities, and I
thought here's a population thatreally can do good work, get a
tremendous sense of satisfactionand pride and well-being from
working.
And I'll tell you, we hadprobably like 15 people on the

(01:13:51):
rolls and I went into everygrocery store.
I was like you're getting oneof ours, you're getting one of
ours, you're getting one of oursBecause, from my perspective,
it's like they're too valuable,like that's.
You can afford it and this issomething that needs to happen.
It's purpose-driven and youwill be better for it it to
happen.

Speaker 2 (01:14:08):
It's purpose-driven and you will be better for it.
It's going to pay you backexponentially.

Speaker 3 (01:14:11):
Yeah, I'm just, I'm just, yeah, it's me again,
because you may not realize it,but your staff is going to
benefit.
You're going to save lives.
You are going to reducefriction in your community.
You are going to engender trustif or when you start getting
exposed to this training.
So I'll say it on high and onlow.

(01:14:33):
I like, oh, tell me theobjection and I'll, I'll give
you a reason why you know I'll,I'll overcome it because it's,
it's too important for you notto be exposed to it.
Great, point.

Speaker 1 (01:14:44):
Yeah, I I appreciate that, dan, and I appreciate you
kind of sharing the story andtalking a little bit more about
you, and I know we'll have youon again for some future
in-depth discussions.
And then of course, on Patreonas well for those folks who are
subscribed.
I do have to promote that toowhile we're on here and remember
everyone that you can go onthere and find out more.
But any last thoughts from GregI'll go to you and then Dan

(01:15:05):
give you kind of the lastthoughts.

Speaker 2 (01:15:10):
Now we take a long, long time to get somebody from
nowhere to on the advisory board, and then we take years to take
somebody from the advisoryboard to finally put them on the
rolls.
And we have probably suchincredible deep thinkers, dr
Joan Johnson, for example.
We think of a person that's onthe board that'll never be on

(01:15:31):
day-to-day because she's in highdemand Clark Dever.
You know Sim Trombitis.
Why are those people there?
Because they're thinkers.
And then, tapping into Dan'sability to apply that to what we
do on the day-to-day when we'reout in the public, brian has
just been so essential.
I knew it was going to be great, but, brian, this was really

(01:15:51):
you saying God, you got to takea look at what we could become,
and that's what it is.
It's the transformation.
We have broken the surly bondswait a minute, that's flight and
are moving up and out at atremendous rate, largely because
of thinkers like Dan.
And so, dan, welcome aboard.

Speaker 3 (01:16:06):
I appreciate that a lot, greg, and, if you notice, I
was on the advisory board but,unlike Joan or Clark, I'm in low
demand.
That's exactly we can affordyou.

Speaker 2 (01:16:18):
We can't afford those guys, brian also.

Speaker 3 (01:16:22):
A real bargain.
I do have one final thing tosay, one quick legacy.

Speaker 2 (01:16:27):
Legacy Seafood.
Legacy Seafood Milledgeville,georgia.

Speaker 3 (01:16:31):
I'm in love with their food and legends legends
legacy is good also starts withan l go to millageville.
How many?

Speaker 1 (01:16:39):
gosh damn fish places are there.
Yeah, beautiful, that place is,amazing.
Their food is amazing and thefood.

Speaker 2 (01:16:46):
The value come on dan after.

Speaker 3 (01:16:48):
Well, I appreciate the accolades, Greg, you know
how I feel about you guys andthe work.
What I am doing also is I wouldlove for anybody that's
listening that wants to reachout and give feedback or say,
hey, you know what, the courseis great, this is what I found
particularly impactful.
And or, hey, you know what?
You guys are missing anopportunity here by not
expanding this more.
Guys are missing an opportunityhere by not expanding this more

(01:17:12):
.
Uh, that we are, we are inlistening mode and I have the
designated person to to gatherthat information, yeah, and then
kind of share it with the team.
So I would it's really requeststhat listeners send me an email
, send me something.
We can get in touch justinformally say if there were two
or these three things you guyscould start focusing on or
re-emphasizing this.
This would do it because, inthe end, I'm an advocate for you

(01:17:33):
as the practitioners.

Speaker 2 (01:17:35):
So that's, that's my final word, right I appreciate
that I'm on cipro so I'mimpacted right now couldn't hold
that one in I can't close, Ican't get that one out, so oh
man all right well, I think, onthat note, we'll go ahead and
wrap up here, appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:50):
I can't get that one out, oh man, all right.
Well, I think, on that note,we'll go ahead and wrap up here.
Appreciate it, dan, for comingon and talking to us.

Speaker 2 (01:17:55):
We'll have you on again.

Speaker 1 (01:17:56):
But thanks everyone for tuning in and don't forget
that training changes behavior.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}How Practice Saved My Life: Applying HBPR&A Under Fire

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist

All Episodes

How Practice Saved My Life: Applying HBPR&A Under Fire

Stuff You Should Know