How To Ask Better Questions

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Have you ever walked away from a conversation feeling like you missed something important? The truth is, you probably did; and it's likely because you didn't ask the right questions.

In this illuminating episode, we dive deep into the art and science of asking better questions – not just to avoid awkward small talk, but to genuinely understand people, spot intentions, and make smarter decisions. Whether you're managing a team, raising teenagers, or simply trying to navigate social situations more effectively, the ability to ask strategic questions is a powerful skill worth developing.

Greg shares his expertise on "psychological disarming" – techniques that help people open up naturally without feeling manipulated. We explore how context shapes every interaction, why curiosity is fundamentally a survival trait, and how to balance open-ended exploration with direct inquiry. You'll discover practical approaches for starting meaningful conversations, recovering from awkward moments, and building rapport that serves you well beyond the initial interaction.

What sets effective questioners apart isn't just what they ask, it's how they create an environment where others feel comfortable sharing. As Greg explains, "Humans are on transmit, so let them transmit." Your job is simply to tune into the right frequency by asking questions that matter.

This episode offers immediately applicable techniques for everyday situations from business meetings to family dinners to chance encounters. Listen now to transform how you connect with others and dramatically improve the quality of information you receive.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone and welcome to the Human Behavior
Podcast.
Do you ever walk away from aconversation feeling like you
missed something important?
Well, you probably did, andit's likely because you didn't
ask the right question.
On today's episode, we'retalking about how to ask better
questions, not just to avoidawkward small talk, but to
actually understand people, spotintent and make smarter
decisions at work, at home or inthe middle of total chaos.

(00:20):
Whether you're managing a team,raising a teenager or just
trying to read the room, thisone's got something for you.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
We hope you enjoyed the episode.
Don't forget to check out ourPatreon channel for additional
content and subscriber-onlyepisodes.
If you enjoy the podcast,please consider leaving us a
review and, more importantly,sharing it with a friend.
Thank you for your time andremember training changes

(00:47):
behavior and we are recordingAll right.
Hello everyone.
We've had a little bit of atime off, a little bit of a
break from episodes for for afew weeks.
Apologize for that.
We'll be back to under normalschedule now.
Had a lot going on.
My move across country got verywe're in a I don't know a kind
of transition period for quitesome time before we finally got
into the house and everything,so that added a number of stress
, but but we appreciate everyonetuning in, especially our new
listeners.
We've got a interesting talktoday, greg, about asking

(01:10):
questions.
So kind of general theme thatwe're going through the show is
is how to ask better questions,and we're going to get into a
bunch of different areas on thisbecause you know there's we've
talked on different podcastsbefore and even in class with
some of the stuff that we do,like how small talk is actually
kind of important sometimes andhow people communicate.
And then it's a you know,everyone's like, oh, I skipped

(01:32):
the small talk.
It's like, no, there's certainsocial elements to that.
But what it comes down to is alot of times people don't get
the information they wantbecause they're not asking the
right questions.
And then I see this too, gregwe'll get to this a little bit
later, but this is a big, withthe different large language
models chat, gpt and all thesedifferent ones.
They're only as effective asthe person using it and the

(01:53):
prompts that you give and thequestions that you ask and the
context that you give.
So you have to frame it, and soit's not unlike trying to get
information from a person,whereas the chat, gpt things are
just giving you the answer thatthey think you want Not
necessarily the right one everytime, but the answer they think
you want.
That's often a lot like humancommunication too.
So there's a lot where we'regoing to get in there, but we

(02:17):
want to get people kind ofbetter at understanding, maybe,
how to improve your ability toask the right questions at the
right time for the right reason.
Right, because you can do a lotof things for you.
Reduce some uncertainty.
It helps obviously influencethe outcome of any situation
that you're in.
Whether you're talking to ahuman or an AI bot or something,
the quality of your questionsdetermines the quality of your

(02:39):
results.
So I figure, greg, no betterperson to talk about this with
than you, the king of questionsand the king of talking to
everyone that you run into,whether they want to have a
conversation or not sometimes.
But I'm going to throw to youto kind of start off, greg,
because you're the guy who canget the life story out of

(03:01):
someone at a gas station.
You know what I mean.
Like you'll get the mostamazing information out of
people and they give it upwillingly and you're not
deliberately being persuasive.
You know what I mean.
You're not necessarily goingfor something, unless it's
specific to an investigation orquestioning, right.
But even just your dailyconversations, like I just
noticed, like there's structurethere and there's things that
you're doing that I don't alwaysknow, but I can tell you're not

(03:25):
just having small talk here,you're having a deliberate
conversation.
How do you ask those kinds ofquestions that get those real
answers?

Speaker 2 (03:34):
Yeah, and I like the way you preface that, and so
I'll give something that Brianand I were just talking to some
clients and one of the thingsthat I brought up on that call
was that practice and rehearsalare two very different things.
Practice is that individualskill development and the
preparatory steps that you wouldtake, and then the rehearsal is
the performance.
Well, the edge that I have onmost people is I've been doing

(03:55):
it longer and I do itdeliberately.
I'll get to that in just onesecond.
And what I mean by that is that,for example, brian and I have
the benefit of being in a lot ofdifferent places.
We travel a lot, we takedifferent means of
transportation.
So therefore, on one day we'llbe at the airport, we'll then be
at a rental car place, we'llthen be at a gas station, then
be at a Target and then be at ahotel.

(04:16):
That's more than most peoplecan do in a month sometimes, and
we'll do that day after day fora while.
So what does that benefit?
That benefits me, because I getmore rehearsal than you do, and
in between those, brian and Iget to break down the skills.
So that's the practice.
Second thing is Brian and I getan opportunity where sometimes
we're at a place very early orvery late, which means that the

(04:39):
other person doesn't have agreat deal of cognitive load.
They're cleaning up orrestocking shelves or anything
else like that it's not rushhour time.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
It means they're vulnerable.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, and so that means that we can choose when to
encounter people, and that'scompletely different than
engaging when somebody says next, and there's 30 people behind
you holding a number in lineRight.
So we have that going forth.
And then to just clarify that,I would say do you have
authority?
For example, are you actingunder color of law?

(05:08):
I asked him a question on atraffic stop, for example,
completely different than aninterview or an interrogation or
a casual street contact andmost of the time you know me,
you've seen me it's always acasual street contact.
I'm just probing people.
I just love to improve mybaseline by getting to know them
, and the second part of thatauthority here would be agency.
Do you have agency?
And what I'm referring to whenI say agency is do you have the

(05:31):
competence to make your ownchoices and to act independently
when you're in a location?
That allows me the sense ofcontrol and the ability to
influence outcomes and directoutcomes, which means most
people are ghosts.
It's the walking dead.
You're going through your life,getting gas, getting on a bus
and you don't pay attention toshit around you.
So these are skills to be morecurious, brian, and to attend to

(05:55):
those things that are aroundyou.

Speaker 1 (05:59):
Yeah, and I appreciate you adding that in
there because that's a goodbaseline, a good context for the
relationship dynamics.
When you're talking to someone,exactly, that obviously matters
, right, if it's a husband andwife or, like you said, you're a
police officer who was calledto a scene, you're just a police
officer walking out of thestore, right, but you're a sign
of authority.
Or is it me going up to the?

(06:20):
Whatever it is?
I'm walking up and they'reblocking the street for
construction and there's a guyholding a sign?
Okay, there's an implied sortof this person has the authority
to block this area and if I'mgoing to go up and ask him a
question, right.
So that always always shapesthe conversation how it's
perceived.
Right, you have people come inlike, well, I was just asking a

(06:40):
question.
It's like dude, you walked inhere, you're twice the size of
everyone, you're jacked, you'rewearing a tank top and you
naturally speak really loud.
So everyone got real nervousand that person was never their
intent for any of those thingsto occur, but right off the bat,
you're starting with a dynamicthat could spiral out of control
.
So that's a great place tostart, actually, before we get

(07:01):
into about questions.
So that's always an importantthing about that context and
what is the relationship betweenyou and the person you're
discussing?
Because, yes, you're you andthe person you're talking to or
having a discussion with.
Because that's going to playinto not just how you're
approaching what type ofquestions you're asking, but
like also it frames, like what'sappropriate, what isn't
appropriate, what the socialnorms are exactly because it

(07:23):
literally frames everything asthat context.
Yep, yep.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
So I would add to that context, brian, I would add
one more thing before we go onRemain aware of time and
distance.
We always talk about the giftof time and distance.
If somebody's too busy or toofocused, you might become an
obstacle to their mission andunless you have both authority
and agency, you don't want to dothat ever Like as a hostage

(07:47):
negotiator they don't call thatanymore, it's a crisis
negotiator.
But I predate all that stuff.
You had to get in and be anintervention right.
So my intent was completelydifferent than just having
casual conversations to buildrapport for the ultimate goal of
knowing more about my AI AO andbuilding more complete baseline
.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
And so you said the kind of magic word there of what
is your intent in theconversation and, and so that's
an important aspect.
But we're going to kind of keepit to.
If I go in going, all right, Ineed to get this information
from that person, like well,they might pick up on your
intent there, which is why wesort of start before.
That, right, in a sense, islike well, they might pick up on
your intent there, which is whywe sort of start before.
That Right, in a sense is likewell, if you have a specific

(08:29):
intent, ok, then there's maybe aprocess or something that you
learned or something that youcan do to get those questions.
But, like, what I'm going isbig picture here, just about in
general, because you may notknow Right, or you may not know
that this conversation you had.
How many times have we been toa hotel and just small talk, you
know, talking with the peoplethat work there, and found out,

(08:51):
like oh, that restaurant thateveryone talks about, that's
really good.
Like, oh, it's terrible, orthey just had a bad.
You know, they just got allfound like, yep, they got just
shut down for some food, youknow food safety thing or
something like that, or hey, no,that that road, that way,
you're going to take in, that'sgoing to be under construction
tomorrow.
It's going to be a parking lot.

(09:11):
You're going to want to go thisway, like those little things
when you don't have any realintent in mind, you can still
get really valuable information,and so I'll tie it into sort of
like a little bit of thescience of behind asking
questions and and some of thebehavioral principles that we
talk about, because we talkabout cultivating curiosity a
lot, and so, you know, curiouspeople ask questions.
What was that?
That just reminded me?
That was a will ferrell sketchon saturday night live, where

(09:33):
it's like they call me whiskers.
My friends call me whiskersbecause I'm curious like a cat,
so I don't know but but but itwould that curiosity and asking
questions.
Can it be sort of tied tosurvival?
Is it a survival trait?

Speaker 2 (09:47):
Of course it is.
So look, okay, first of all,everybody knows I'm a history
buff and you know that I speakin parables, sometimes WTF,
where the F is Roanoke.
Look for it.
Okay.
Look, we have a long, richhistory of coming into places
and exploiting people.
So we would come in and theNative Americans would either

(10:08):
kill us and eat us and cook usand steal our stuff and burn
down our boats, or they wouldwelcome us with open arms and
give us their food and we repaidthose ones that didn't kill us
and eat us and cook us by givingthem blankets tainted with
eight different types ofdiseases, teaching them glory
hole, doing all this bad stuffwhere they ended up dying out.
So the idea is curiosity istheir survival mechanism?

(10:28):
Because I have to understand mysurroundings and I have to get
up and out of my cave or I'llturn into the gosh damn Habsburg
dynasty.
So the good thing about thatsurvival situation is I must get
up and investigate.
The bad thing is sometimes Iskin a knee or break a tooth or
die.
So we've evolved to the pointnow where it's much less

(10:52):
dangerous and much moreencouraged to do it verbally and
with our posture and bodylanguage than it ever was.
And warning danger.
Will Robinson about bodylanguage.
So many charlatans out therestart with that stuff.
What I'm saying for bodylanguage is scientific.
If you're happy, your faceshould be happy and your body

(11:12):
should be open.
If you're sad, your face shouldbe sad and your body should be
sad, because an incongruentsignal in a survival situation
is the first way to shutsomebody down immediately.
People read scammy encounters,scammy language.
People's defenses and theirhackles are already up.
Why?
Because it's a survival trait,it's learned.
If I'm at a gas station and youwalk in with a briefcase, okay,

(11:34):
people don't bring shit intoWalmart.
Do you get what I'm trying tosay?
They're supposed to be buyingit there.
So those type of environmentallet's call them triggers, brian,
those psychological orsociological triggers hugely
important for me to payattention to.

Speaker 1 (11:48):
Yeah, so, and that curiosity, like you said it can
be, you know, curiosity out ofjust what we want to cultivate
as a general curiosity of yourenvironment and of people, Not a
curiosity based in fear, rightthat everyone's going to kill me
or hurt me.

Speaker 2 (12:03):
Back to Will Ferrell.
Yeah, I wondered what colorpanties is she wearing right now
?
You remember, in the circle oftrust we're in the circle of
trust Exactly what the hell isgoing on.

Speaker 1 (12:12):
No, but seriously.
And so the questions come intogetting into sense-making right
and even cognitive loadmanagement and how you
understand the environment,because asking good questions
and asking questions in generalhelp you understand what's going
on right, whether it's the youknow, like I remember we were in

(12:33):
, we were leaving one place,going to another.
I think we had a tight timeline, like had to get gas right off
the freeway and it was like kindof not the best area, so like I
think you would walk back outto the car.
There were people wanderingaround the parking lot, so I was
up there paying and I waslooking around for what I needed
, because it wasn't normal spots, it's a different place.
And so I'm getting up there andI'm paying, but I keep looking

(12:53):
out the window because I'm justchecking for security, because
there are some interestingcharacters in the area, right,
and I'm looking in here and theguy checking me out at the gas
station is like hey man, are yougood?
And I'm like, yeah, I'm fine,he read you buddy.
And so his file folders werelike all right, this dude's
going to reach in and grab thecash or rob me and then book it

(13:14):
out of there or whatever.
But he was going hey, this guy'skind of amped up, there's
something up here Like thisdoesn't fit the baseline for
what I should expect to see, orit the baseline for what I
should expect to see, or it onlyfits certain elements that like
to come in here sometimes.
So I better ask that question.
And so that was him trying tofigure out what was going on.
So he was doing somesense-making that triggered me

(13:34):
to be like, oh, I probably looklike a cracked out, like you
know what I mean, I'm lookingaround.
I just gone to the bathroom.
I kind of moved in there quickbecause we had a tight timeline.
So like this guy's like whoa,what's the rush here, man?
And so it was just interestingthat he picked one and he picked
up on it and then it caused meto go oh, okay, like I'm kind of
giving off the wrong signalshere.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
I don't want to do that, but see there again.
Now you have agency, now you'reself-aware of the impact that
you're having.
You're no longer the flyingwall, brian, and just the level
of focus that you exhibited wasdifferent from all the other
automatons, the robots that werejust going in there and
grabbing their zag nut and theirpower drink and walking out to
their car and going home to beattheir old lady or their husband

(14:13):
, and the idea is that that, tohim, was read as potential
danger, because when heencountered it before, I'll
guarantee you, it was only twothings.
It was a copper you get whatI'm trying to say doing a
rolling surveillance or it was abad guy getting ready to jack
him and you inadvertently hadwandered into that territory,
but you immediately were able toself-assess and bring that back

(14:36):
around.

Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah, and then it's.
You know, now we're getting inconversation and now we're
talking.
Now I'm finding out about thatarea.
So, conversation, and now we'retalking, now I'm finding out
exactly about that area, so I'musing that too, going like all
right, well, why is this guyasking these questions?
Okay, maybe this place getsrobbed before.
Maybe he's been through thatexperience, it's all.
But this is all that sensemaking and adding to that
baseline.
So when?
So?
So when you, when you do this, I, when you approach someone,

(15:00):
like sometimes it's to maybe askdirections or whatever, or you
to ask a question aboutsomething.
You know when's the flightgetting in, or did you hear
whatever it is?
You know, I'm curious as to,like, when you're having these,
these conversations, like, howdo you structure it in your mind
?
In a sense, meaning, when youwalk up and it's like, oh, yeah,
we're with me, yeah, we're intown, are you just making,

(15:22):
making this kind of like eithera goofy story or trying to tell
a joke to disarm the situation?
You set it up as a friendlything, unless it needs to be
serious.
But what are you thinking inthat moment?
Is it about what the nextquestion is, or are you thinking
about what they're saying tolead you?
Or do you have that mental kindof process that you do?
Because I've seen it in a bunchof different settings and it's,

(15:42):
you know, in an architect youknow well, I don't know how
would I say that Like it'salmost like well it is almost
like you designed it, but it,but.
It's natural at the same time.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
So but it's natural, only because I've done it so
many times, brian.
So so you're asking the rightquestion and I'll I'll go back
to the asking.
What's your intent?
So my intent is generally togather information to make a
more robust baseline, becausethe better baseline I have for
any environment I'm in whetherit's a rental car, the driveway,
the shitter the betterconclusions I'm going to reach,

(16:13):
which means the artifacts andevidence are going to play into
weighing heavily on my decisionmaking, your dirty mic and the
boys.

Speaker 1 (16:18):
Those are the same place, Exactly.
You know it's a soup kitchen.

Speaker 2 (16:21):
So my intent is to build rapport for this contact,
but also for future contacts.
That's why I try to memorizenames or specific things about
an individual, or if they'recoming on or just getting off
shift, I may need that person inan hour and knowing those
things might be.
The difference betweenwrestling information out of
somebody and getting them towillingly give it to me Is my

(16:43):
intent to get into your pantsand I apologize, but let's get
scientific here for a minute.
There's very differentchemicals at work in my brain if
I'm interrogating a homicidesuspect or I'm putting a make on
my favorite waiter or waitress,right, yeah.
So the idea is that when I seesomebody with a definitive style
, I'm always cautious.
So my style is much moreflexible, and what I mean by

(17:08):
that is do I smile at thisperson or do I act perplexed?
Am I making eye contact orlooking away like I dropped
something?
Am I going to be positive or amI going to act very vulnerable?
These are all psychologicalstances I have to adopt, and
what I do, brian, is I throw oneout.
So I'm fishing, I'm fly fishing.
I pick the etymology of thelure based on the environment
that I'm in, I draw somereasonable inferences about the

(17:30):
area, the state, the time of day, the type of work, those things
.
That again, brian, is mypractice phase for the rehearsal
.
I do the research right and Iaccumulate that research.
Some is pop culture, some isgeographic information, some is
psychological culture.
Some is geographic information,some is psychological or
sociological.
Look folks, if this was easy,everybody could do it.
And then what I do is I castsomething out and generally I

(17:54):
try to involve myself.
So I'm looking through a coupleof dollars in my pocket or I'm
fumbling through my wallet formy credit card.
I know what I'm doing.
I'm intentionally doing that tobuild the time distance gap
between the person and I.
And then I look up as if I'mperplexed and go how do you make
this look so easy?
Is it always this busy?
Now I asked two perfunctoryquestions right there.

(18:15):
I cast two lines out to it andthat person immediately wants to
talk about the hero in theirstory, and generally the hero in
everybody's story is them.
So they go.
You know, I tell you what themilitary prepped me.
Or they go, man, I've workedmidnights for 16 years, or, dude
, I'm brand new here, so I'mfaking it till I make it.

(18:36):
Whatever it is.
Now, those people in Greg'smind are either open or closed.
If that person's open meaning Igot rapport back from them,
then I know that I can do afollow on.
And then what I have to do.
Like you said, joke.
You've been with me a long timeand I've never told a joke, but
I have humorously tiedsomething to somebody, right.

(18:59):
So I usually make myself thefoil or the foible of the joke
and make fun of myself.
Okay, but but what people Ithink here sometime, brian, if
it's a classic joke, you knowlike hey, two dogs walk into a
place.

Speaker 1 (19:12):
You know where I'm going.
Yeah, you don't walk in with ahey, did you hear the one about
the guy?
Exactly Okay, so a bar and thebartenders.
You know, I forgot my glasses.

Speaker 2 (19:20):
You know what I'm saying.
And then I walk around thecounter and I pick something up
and go maybe this will help, andthen I get the person looking
at me like okay, this guy's anidiot, and then I go on.
So what I like to refer to thatis and if you've ever heard me
for a long distance of time orlength of time, it's
psychological disarming, andBrian and I use sociological
disarming understanding thegeographics and the proxemics

(19:43):
and some of the other heuristicsthat are intrinsic upon an area
, and then exploiting that.
And you know it's not a coldread, I'm not looking at the
front Like look, anybody canwear anything anytime and
anybody can have a purple shockof hair, and that's because they
liked watching Trolls the movie, not because they're a cancer
survivor, or you get what I'mtrying to say there's no reason

(20:04):
behind something.
But what we do is we try to readinto that and every time I read
a charlatan they go well,remember, and tough guys wear
pink or whatever.
That means it's a breast cancersurvivor.
I know a lot of breast cancersurvivors.
They don't play into that shitand I know other people that do
it just because they like thecolor pink.
I have a pink phone so I don'tlose this son of a bitch, right?

(20:32):
So so what happens is we don'twant to add credence or
credibility to things that areoutside of the purview of that
initial contact, initial contact.
Is this person open?
If the person's open, go aheadwith it.
Avoid scammy, avoid language,like, like.
For example, I remember Shelly'sfirst dope thing on the street.
It was all recorded and she's aUC and she's going up to buy
dope, and so she goes up to theperson.
Perchance, do you have anycannabis sativa that's for sale
at this juncture?

(20:53):
I would also be interested inany elements of cocaine
hydrochloride, right?
Okay, completely off-puttingwith those statements.
You come in and you'reknow-it-all, joe, you're going
to you've seen me before where Igo like, hey, we're going to go
to the IHOP across the street.
What's wrong with that decision?

(21:14):
And that's open-ended and Ithrow it at the person.
And now I'm I'm expecting whatI get.
I'm going to get either, hey,I'm not from this area, I don't
know, that's the best place.
I eat there all the time Orderthe number three.
Or, oh my God, tomei Palace.
Right, but.
But the idea is that a looserframe going in allows me to get

(21:35):
more detailed and specifiedgoing on.

Speaker 1 (21:37):
You hit something right when you started answering
the question, which was prettyprofound because it's actually
how humans, you know kind of,why we establish relationships
and why we talk to each other inthe first place and why we've
been able to survive so long.
But you actually said when I'm,you know, having a conversation
with them or asking question,like it may be because you know

(21:59):
something in the future likeyou're going into exactly right,
this isn't the random guy I'mnever going to see again for the
rest of my life, and I may berunning through this parking lot
looking for cover an hour.
But but if I look at just howhumans interact, right, you know
, people are more likely to berude to someone who they know
they're never going to see again, or no?
like this person offers no value, dismissive or whatever casual

(22:21):
condescending yep, but like whenthere's an incentive for us,
like, oh, this is someone, thisis why we tolerate, you know,
assholes at work.
Because you're like well, Ihave to work with this person,
right, I'm going to be able tohave to talk to them, so I have
to figure out a strategy to makethis work.
So there's an incentive there.
And what I'm taking from thisis you're going into it, going.

(22:42):
I may never know.
This person may save my life in10 minutes, or they may give me
some piece of information thatkeeps me alive or gives me some
edge or gives me some in, andit's not in in a like I'm trying
to use everyone, but in a senseyou it's because it's a two-way
street, or like, maybe thatperson's going to rely on you
for something you know, whatever, whatever it is, but but you're

(23:04):
automatically going into.
This is like okay, this isn't,and this isn't just an
interaction of me with the frontdesk person as I check in my
hotel.
This might be the person, thismight be the person I marry
someday.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
This might be the person that I, you know, with
you, that's always true.
Put that right out there.

Speaker 1 (23:21):
Yeah, exactly, yeah, you only only at the hotels that
have the, you know, the fenceup blocking the parking lot and
everything but, but, but and so.
So that's a really interestingway to look at it and go in.
So it's like it's not just.
This is a.
This conversation ends here.
This conversation.
I may run into that person nextweek and they may give me a

(23:41):
deal on a plumber because theirbrother is and he you know what
I mean Like you never know wherethat stuff is going to interact
.

Speaker 2 (23:48):
Let me go somewhere else with this conversation for
just a moment and show you howspot on Brian is.
So for all the surveillanceteams out there that are looking
for criminality, you're acopper, you're on a survey team,
you're HR, you're looking foruntoward behavior at the
workplace.
What happens is, when you setyourself up with what you're

(24:10):
looking for, you limit yourobservations and perceptions to
those things.
So you're creating a bias.
And I don't want to say it'sunconscious, because there is
some conscious ability.
I hate the word subconscious,but what's happening is you're
limiting yourself.
So when I'm on the glass, looktwo ways of looking at binos.
Hold your binos in your hand.
You look at them at the big endfirst, with the small end
facing away from you, and yourproblems are way down the road.
You got nothing to worry about.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
You flip them around, holy shit, the enemy's on the
wire.
Exactly that's a problem forfuture.
We got all the time in theworld.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
So right now, surveillance teams are laughing.
But look, what's happening iswe're limiting ourselves.
We're looking for ahand-to-hand drug transaction,
so what we're not looking for isthe guy over there that's
likely carrying a gun and actingas the muscle.
So when I go up to make thatcustodial arrest, I missed that
person, and now I'm ambushed.
I'm looking for a person that'sgoing to carjack and they're
walking through cars that arestopped for a red light, and
then what happens is I see theguy and he's moving, he's got

(25:02):
something in his hand and I pullout my gat, but then I find out
it's a squeegee, not a rifle.
Okay, the idea, brian, is thatwhat we can't do is we can't set
such rigid standards oncomplexity that our cognition is
inhibited.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
We have to allow ourselves to be so curious as to
say what's happening here andallowing ourselves to see it,
rather than saying I'm lookingfor a guy with a mustache and
nobody else matters in thatsituation right, right, and that
kind of actually goes into kindof different styles people have
, because what you're going tois what I'll fall into,

(25:38):
sometimes not meaning to or likeyou know, my style a little bit
is I like the kind of precisestrategic question.
I like reducing the ambiguity.
It's like, hey, just let's goon this one thing, and you're
like almost polar end opposite.
We're like I'm going to takethis path Where's like, hey,
just let's go on this one thing,and you're almost polar end
opposite.
Where I'm going to take thispath, where's it going to lead
me?
You're going from Chicago toNew York, but you're going to go

(25:59):
west around the globe and getthere, and you know what I mean,
where I'm like give me thedirect flight, give me the
direct flight, but I thinkthey're both effective,
depending on the circumstance,right, because sometimes you
need to get right straight tothe point.
Sometimes you can ask questionsand what it is?
It falls back to everything youwere just talking about, but

(26:19):
with the curiosity part aboutthe questioning going into it, I
don't know what I'm going tofind, but I'm going to find
something and I'm going to letevidence lay itself out in front
of me, that's curiosity buddy,in essence, and because of time
and because of, you know, it'scaloric efficiency.
You know we want to get right tothe point sometimes or we want

(26:40):
to get right there and thatreally doesn't, you know, allow
that room.
You know it doesn't allow roomfor a little bit of free play
and exploration and lettingsomeone slip something out that
maybe they, they, otherwisewouldn't have.
And I don't mean that in anegative or positive way, just
they, they, they revealinformation that's beneficial to
you in some way later on.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
And, and you know what, I have to accumulate those
pieces because right now it'snot important, but in a few
minutes I figure out it isimportant.
So I'll give you one, yeah, I'llgive you one.
From work Bad situation,killing, mayhem, running, all
this other stuff and this oneguy is just not giving up
anything.
And everybody gives upeverything to me over time, and
usually it's right up front andthen I can exploit that over

(27:24):
time.
But this person's not sayingand not saying and not saying.
And so we're going through thebooking processing and I'm
telling the coppers let me stayin with this guy for a minute,
going man, this doesn't make anysense.
Man, you can help yourself out,you can let yourself go.
All I need to know is what thetruth is, what's your truth?
And I'm going on all mychannels and it's dead end, dead
end, dead end, spiral, spiral.
And then you know it dawned onme holy shit, we're talking

(27:45):
about this guy's mother or hisbrother, or his wife the
relationship has changed and Imissed it and I go hey, you can
cover for your brother the restof your life or you can get out
from under this.
And, man, the guy broke downimmediately.
So again I was fishing, Brianand I had a couple of choices.
I didn't say mom, I didn't saydad, I said brother.
And it worked.
So anybody out there that's inthe business will see that and

(28:07):
understand it.
So what I'll do is I'll likenthat to two movies that I know
that we both like, that we seeon the road all the time Great
Outdoors and Tommy Boy.
Both have Dan Aykroyd in it ina role, Dan Aykroyd at the bar
talking to the guy that got hitby lightning.

Speaker 1 (28:20):
Hey, what's with the hairdo pal?

Speaker 2 (28:22):
The Neo Skunk thing going or whatever, right, and
then also in Tommy Boy when he'son the elevator hey, what's
that smell?
Pine scent.
Okay, now identifying, it's thefirst part, now getting rid of
it.
What happens is that approachis way too abrupt, and that's
way too abrupt, even in aninterrogation.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
I'll give you one more.
It was the Wayne's World, wherehe comes out of the concert and
talks to the limo driver, thebig record executive.
He tells him his whole plan andhe's got a trip up through
Chicago and here, and then lateron they do that, inter-write
the broadcast and they beam itinto his limo and they go.
Oh, it seemed like prettyuseless information at the time,
exactly.

Speaker 2 (29:00):
Or he had other film Knowing what we Know.
Now, that was exactly the wrongthing to do.
No, but that's what I'm talkingabout, Look.
So when you get into thesituation, if you're
condescending or off-putting, ithas to be intentional, and
you've seen me do that beforewhere I get into somebody to get
a reaction, okay, rare, laser,focused and deliberate, okay.

(29:21):
And I'm doing that because Ihave to see the response and
remember people treat stuff likegrief differently.
I watch these people watching aTV show and all of a sudden
they go well, that guy clearlydid it because they're laughing
about this.
No, no, no, no, no.
You've been in combat.
You've seen Marines that havejust gotten their buddy's head
explode on their lap and they'remaking a gallows humor joke

(29:42):
about something else becausethat's their only way to deal
with it.
And you've seen other peoplethat totally lose it over
something that's minor.
Hey, it's a splinter dude, getit together.
So don't take that.
But what I'm talking about iswhat type of sociological or
psychological or physiologicaltoll?
What weight, what resonancedoes this add?
It's like discordant music.
You can hear it right away.

(30:04):
You're not sure what it is.
You've got to walk around theorchestra for a minute to catch
which one's playing it off key,brian.
But it's there.
And so the more I build up onthat, the less likely this
person is being genuine ortelling me the truth.
So again, it's not that thatlook.
Body language is part of it,but it's a very small part of it
.
So if the person is, you know,kicking their foot, maybe they

(30:24):
want to get out of the interviewroom.
If the person is, you know,pulling their hood up over and
and falling asleep, maybethey've done it and they know
they're going to jail and theydon't give a shit about the
questioning.
But if I put too much weight onthat and I don't focus on what's
the overall picture thatthey're painting, I'm going to
miss something right in front ofme.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
And that's a good point, without kind of getting
into specifics, but that's sodetermined by the context.
You see someone's interviewedand you know they're looking at
their body language and likethat's part of it.
But you have to take everythingelse is about the context and
about the environment and aboutwhat the actual, you know topic

(31:04):
is that you're discussing.
All has to do with it.
You know what the relationship,dynamic, all of that stuff is
far more important to understandthan what they did with their
right foot when you brought upthat question.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
Exactly, unless it sets a pattern of behavior,
unless each time that you sawthis, the person was building
towards that.
And even then, brian, it's asuggestion, it's not an answer.
And so that funnel, theprobability to narrow that down.
Look, I'll give you an exampleshared enemy.
It's one of my tactics.
So we pick something, I picksomething that might be nebulous

(31:38):
to everybody else, but it'svery important to them.
So you know whether I'm inTrump country, or you know I'm a
Dem or whatever else.
I can do that, but those onesare too entrenched and ingrained
in people's minds.
I might piss somebody off andget shot.
So I back that off.
I don't read the hat and I dosomething like this.
I go holy smokes.
It's so busy in here.
You're making this look easy.

(31:58):
Boom.
That's not a question, that's astatement.
Three two one.
You must really have to be goodwith people in a job like this.
Three, two one.
Open-ended comments.
Brian, those aren't evenquestions, and what I'm allowing
that person to do is fill thegap.

Speaker 1 (32:15):
Nobody likes a pregnant pause.

Speaker 2 (32:20):
Everybody wants to be filling that with some kind of
talk and even if the person iscasually paying attention to me,
if I can get them to orientslightly to me now I look to
that person and maybe ask theman opinion, maybe go the next
level and say hey, listen, doyou live around here or do you
just work around here?
Because I got to tell you Ihave no idea where to go to
dinner tonight.
Whatever that follow-on is, isBrian, I'm setting up a series

(32:45):
of things to show the personthat I'm approachable and
affable, without setting aseries of questions which feel
like I'm trying to corral themor yeah, and and, and.

Speaker 1 (32:53):
What you're doing is, by by when, making it a little
bit more ambiguous.
It'd be like you know thedifference between me saying,
let's say, like you know, youand shelly did your hike, you
know, on saturday, or somethingright.
So, like, if I go, hey, greg,uh, did you know?
If I don't know that, well,like, did you, did you go for a
hike on saturday?
It was kind of already going.
Like, well, what do you ask meabout?

(33:13):
But if I go, Greg, you know, hey, what do you, what do you guys
like to?
What do you and Shelly do inyour free time?
Oh, we love to go up antlerhiking and we go do this and we
walk around here.
Now you're telling me oh cool,did you have?

(33:38):
You know, I get you, get to be.
You know, if you make thatperson the, the, the main focus,
the main character of the story, and let them tell, they'll
tell you their story, they willtell you what's important to
them.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
They will tell you You're exactly right.
But but, brian, here's whereyou can bring in humor and and
without being off-putting.
So, guys, on the portableoxygen behind the counter looks
pale for the gosh damn hotelthat we're checking into and
he's going third floor or fourthfloor.
What do you recommend?
Clearly, you go out hiking alot and then the guy pauses for

(34:04):
a second and I go no man, I'm inthe same boat.
This is kicking my ass, youknow.
If there's no elevator, give mea bottom floor.
What you're doing is you'retrying to be relatable without
being mean.
It's okay to get a person likehey, I bet you're not going
dancing tonight.
Okay, what you're doing isyou're opening up certain doors,
but you got to be careful withthat because if the person feels
as if you're making them thecenter, so the way to do that is

(34:26):
look at the situation and turnit back on me.
What would I feel like in thatsituation?
What are the things?

Speaker 1 (34:32):
important to me.
Well, I want to kind of getinto that specifically here in a
minute, about like kind of goodversus bad questions, or it
really shouldn't be good versusbad, it should be like better
versus worse questions, or like,you know what I mean what a
distinction.
Well, I mean, it's like, yeah,this is probably not the best,
but it's not necessarily bad.
But first, because everythingwe're talking about I mentioned

(34:55):
at the beginning how thisrelates to all the different
large language models and AIsystems and bots that people
interact with, Because, usingthose one, I know you don't use
any of them, but I've shown youhow to detect when everything
you're reading on LinkedIn iscreated by chat.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
And it's above me.
I'm not, I can't do that.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
Didn't even bother taking out the M dash, which is
now something that everyone has,but anyway, you know you know
prompting like chat GBT, that'sa skill.
What we're talking about isthis language, and questioning
and setting up the context is askill, and so one of the things
I always like to say is you knowyou don't get good answers from
lazy inputs or the classic youknow shit in equals shit out,

(35:38):
and so so what you're doing isit's because it's designed by
humans and because it's tryingto answer like a human, you're
going to run into the exact sameissues that all human
communication falls into, all ofthe different issues that can
pop up like a lack of context oror me just giving an answer.
That I that I think you wantnot necessarily the right answer

(35:59):
exactly to help you out andgive you the answer that you're
looking for, and so it's.
It's.
It's always, you know, kind ofinteresting.
Like on those interactions whenI use them, you really have to
define.
Okay, this is who you defineroles Like, this is who you are.
I want you to act as if you area social media manager.
I'm going to give you thiselement of the human behavior

(36:22):
podcast.
I want you to tell me out ofthis script what would likely do
this.
And so you get very specific,because I'm adding in all this
context and then it's going ohokay, I see what you're getting
at, try this, and then you canrefine it from there.
Well, when you're kind oftalking to someone or you want
to ask good questions, it'ssimilar.
I don't have to get out andwrite down a script and say you

(36:45):
are this person, this is whatI'm trying to do, right?
It happens a little bit moreimplicitly with human
communication and, like some oflike you were talking about,
even with how we say something,so that how the body language
plays in it.
And you talked about if there'sincongruent, right, if I'm, you
know, smiling, you know when ina really tense situation,
that's incongruent.

(37:05):
Or if I'm, you know, laughingwhen I'm telling you something
horrific, or I'm crying when I'mtelling you something, you know
that's really funny, like, well, that's incongruent.
My brain's going something,something isn't right here.
This doesn't fit.
And so if, if me, when I'masking you a question and I'm
trying to get information, butbut you're clear, picking up for
me that clearly I don't want tobe there because I'm not even
facing you and I'm barely evenlike making eye contact, like

(37:27):
I'm not going to give you a verygood answer because I don't
know why, but I'm pickingunconsciously, all humans are
picking up on this and theycan't articulate it, but that's
going to feed into it.
So, like I want my question andmy, my body language, my
approach, my style, to becongruent, right, in order to
get my, my intent across, inorder for them, that's a huge
thing, though that's a hugething and we can't put that on

(37:50):
the person that we're speakingwith, and you know that.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
And the biggest fear ends justification.
So we're in hotel rooms a lot,and when I'm not reading three
books at a gosh damn time, I'mwatching shitty commercial TV,
because now when you go to ahotel you don't get the movie
channels anymore, you got liketwo, four, seven and nine,
whatever they don't have to payfor, and so every channel
there's some gore porn about ahomicide that happened 25 years

(38:15):
ago, and every single channelhas the homicide on it.
But it's a different thingBuried in the backyard.
My sister did it.
You know who was the vampire inthis situation, right, but it's
all the same.
Caper the same show.
So I'll sit back on a bed tryingto fall asleep on my enormous
pillow, and while I'm watchingthat shit, I'm listening to a
detective, and the detectivegoes.
Well, we knew right away, whenthey were laughing around at the

(38:36):
funeral, that they were the onethat did it.
No, what happened is all theartifacts and evidence.
You put together acircumstantial case and the
fingerprint and DNA evidence gotthis guy.
So therefore, those shittyinterviews that you did, you
think that those are justified?
That's not the way it works.
So think of everything as thatinitial street contact, when
there's no color of law thatapplies, where you just walk up

(38:57):
and go hi to somebody and theperson goes what's this about?
And you guys just want to sayhi to you and then you start
talking to them.
That's not protected.
You can say anything you wantto, but the person also has the
right to say no.
Then take it up the level to atraffic stop and you're going.
Yeah, but I'm not a cop, Idon't give a shit.
What I'm asking you isperspective.
Put yourself in his shoes for aminute Now, when I'm on that
door and I'm asking youquestions.

(39:18):
Where do I need to get from here?
Okay, so now I've got to breakthe ice a little bit.
Hey, in a minute I'm going toask for all your identification,
but I've got to tell you backthere when you, without stopping
and gunned the engine, it waspretty cool if I wasn't watching
.
And then all of a sudden youget the person going oh shit,
and some people go no, bedefinitely serious about
everything.
Look, use what works, but yourpractice and rehearsal has to

(39:42):
work for you, because if youwhat Brian just said, if you're
giving off incongruent signals,you're going to come off scammy
and they're going to shut downright away.
And my thing is is, when you'reat that, look, you've got
nothing to lose and everythingto gain.
So a difference betweeninterview and interrogation,
everybody knows.
If you don't do your homework,look it up.
But now I'm in an interrogation.
Everything matters, but youcontrol the narrative and the

(40:07):
time and you want them to elicit.
You want to elicit theinformation from them and have
them lock themselves into astory.
So, going in and going, let mewarn you right now, before we
start, the coffee in thisbuilding blows okay, and I can
get you a water bottle, but it'sgoing to be room temperature
and probably three other peoplehave drank from it, but I can
easily send somebody out.
What is it that you want?
And then the person sayssomething that I can't do.

(40:27):
I want a fucking steak dinnerand some prime rib.
Yeah, I get it, but let's reinthat in a little bit.
What do you say?
I have somebody go to Steak andShake and get you a soda, and
then the person goes really andyou're like yeah, what am I
doing?

Speaker 1 (40:40):
Two things building, trust, building rapport Already
you're talking.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
It has nothing to do with the case in chief or the
case at hand.
And so am I trying to gain anadvantage of this person.
No, I'm trying to talk to thisperson Now.
If I go, if you tell me who youwere with, I will give you a
hand job, give you a steakdinner, give you all that other
stuff.
That's all illegal, but all I'mtrying to do is establish
rapport.
So what's different about thatestablishing rapport?

(41:06):
At the gas station, pick upsomething on the way to the
counter that's less than a buck.
Well, nothing less than a buck.
Now, less than five, okay, andwe're pushing on that.
Did you ever hear of a Zagnut?

Speaker 1 (41:17):
Holy shit, where did that name come from?
I recently just had one,because there's this candy shop
near me that sells like theyeven have like candy cigarettes.
I think that's amazing.

Speaker 2 (41:28):
So that right there, conversation starter, throw it
up on a counter, look the personin the eye and go where do you
think they got that name?
And then the guy's going to saysomething, or the female or
whoever the kid is going to saymaybe the guy's name is Colonel
Zag?
Hey, you know what?
That's a pretty good thing andsometimes by understanding
history, by knowing a little bitabout pop culture, you might
have the answer.
But don't always give theanswer, because when you give

(41:50):
the answer you sound like ano-no, like me.
I just joked about medicine andailments and all that stuff.
Why?
Because I'm always screwed upwith a cane or I'm walking with
a limp or I'm pissing in a bag.
It's okay to share that withthe person.
Because I'm sharing that, I'mvulnerable.
Now you're saying I never shareanything, I'm not going to
shake your hand, I'm not goingto give you any information on
me.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
Well, if you want to be a human, exactly that's the
key.
If you want to be a human, youmight as well share human
emotions.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
That's why when we're in a situation and Brian, it
showed up again where they'resaying how did those two people
get beat down by that crowd ofpeople?
And nobody stepped in, and someexpert came on and said well,
it's crowd dynamics.
That's wrong.
Crowds are designed to savehumans because without
procreation you can't go forward.
So what was different in thatone?
The level of violence was sohigh that the person goes hey,

(42:38):
if I step in now, I'm going toget my ass kicked.
Okay, do you get what I'm tryingto say.
So the idea is, what is it thatI want to interject into this
Petri dish and what might I getout?
And if I don't think before Ido that, then I'm going to throw
something out there.
That's really horrific, becauseif I come in joking about it
going hey, who died for allthese gosh damn black balloons?

(42:58):
And the guy goes my mother.
She just died of cancer, thenI'm hosed, tommy, I can't go any
further.
You see what I'm saying, brian.
So a measured, opaque, tabularasa question at the very
beginning to establish somethingis much better than a defined
laser focus question.

Speaker 1 (43:15):
Right and you're getting into the kind of good
versus bad questions right, if I, if I, if I go and and and and.
If I go, you know, to laserfocus right off the bat, then it
limits my potential spirals andmy potential other follow up
limits, everything.
So it's like if I'm looking athow I have to start, this is why
fucking small talk exists.

(43:36):
This is why people talk aboutthe weather, because we all
experience.
If I'm talking to someone andwe're in the same you know
fucking room or we're acrosscountry, it doesn't matter on
the phone like we talk about theweather, because it's something
that every human being isaffected by in some manner.
So it's's like it's the mostcommon thing, it's the simplest
thing to talk about, but it justopens up the line of question.

(43:57):
It starts the conversation, isall it is.

Speaker 2 (43:59):
So set it up exactly what Brian just said and then
set it up a little dumber thanyou normally would be saying it,
and that's to be humorous, notto be off-putting.
And I'll give the example.
Hey, I'm not up to speed on allthis new internet jazz.
Okay, that's a funny comment,because right away what I'm
saying is I'm archaic, I'mold-fashioned, I'm from the

(44:20):
Flintstones, I need some adviceor I need some help.
So the second part of that isopening it up to you.
Hey, my name's Greg.
I just checked in a hotelacross the street and I'm
heading out for dinner.
What do you recommend?
And then the person goes I'mnot from around here, yeah, I
know, but you eat food, right.
I mean, like, what kind of foodwould you recommend?

(44:41):
You see where I'm goingsomewhere with the conversation,
without being condescending andwithout being so probative that
the person right away shutsdown.
You know, because I think thatwhen you're in a business and a
person comes into that businessand starts asking questions, it
might be because they're nervous.
Give you an example of that.
I think it's, and I might bewrong on my film, for a change.

(45:06):
I think it's American Graffiti,where the kid goes in and he
wants to buy the bottle of boozeand he goes I'll have a comb,
I'll have that magic marker,I'll have some chiclets, I'll
have the pint of old rockinghorse, I'll have some gum and
I'll have a notebook or whatever.
I'll have some gum and I'llhave a notebook or whatever.
And he tries to couch the shitbehind the counter with a whole
bunch of other stuff thatdoesn't matter, hoping the guy
you know falls for it.
Well, the idea was, the guy cameand said hey, you got to have
your ID anyway.

(45:26):
When you're saying I have noexpectations of this
conversation, the conversationwill go better.
But when you're saying I wantto be probative at a level, to
build a baseline.
Now, I got to bring my A gamebecause if not I'm going to
close the door.
I might need later and that'stoo risky, I'm not going to.
I'd rather shut up and tryagain.

(45:46):
Do you get what I'm trying tosay?
And that's yet another thing,and you've seen me do that I
walk in the person's talkingwith somebody else, all that
other stuff, I'll go.
I'll turn around and go hey,hold on a minute.
I was just here buying gas.
Oh yeah, I remember what's withthis thing.
Why do they have the numbers onthe glass on the inside?
Well, that's so.

(46:08):
If somebody robs a place, theywalk out.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
Now I'm talking, brian, and talking is the key to
that intervention, thatescalation or de-escalation,
yeah, and so kind of being ableto when you're asking questions,
like being able to exploreother elements that maybe don't
seem important to you, but ifthe person's bringing it up it's
important to them, then I wantto go why is that so important
to this person, right, and Idon't want to ask why is that so

(46:30):
important?
that seems like it's a veryimportant topic, and then you
take out your notepad you knowlike a little jimmy from the
newspaper I think it's like kindof like going back between,
like these sort of open-endedquestions versus more of a
leading question, you know, aprobative one versus something
that that allows you to go.
Like you, you go back and forthbetween that and get get better

(46:51):
at asking those and, like yousaid, like what's the, the, the
follow-up here, like I'm may runinto this person again down the
road, I don't know where.
So how do I want to treat them?
How do I want them to rememberme?
And then, with the questions iswhat am I really trying?
If there is information that Ineed from someone, it's like,
okay, I can't just walk in therenecessarily and start asking

(47:13):
about that.
Well, what are some peripheralthings that I can talk about
that would lead to that topic?
What are some other things thatI can talk about that would
lead that to that topic?
What are some other things thatI can do to, to, to, uh, to set
myself up and continue exactly?

Speaker 2 (47:25):
Set yourself up for future conversations or to go
deeper in the one that you're in, and those are both okay things
to do.
You're, you're, brian, if, ifI'm trying to do it to get into
your pants again, the chemistryis different and I have an
ulterior motive.
So then that person sooner orlater and mostly times sooner is
going to catch on to it and goyeah, I get it.
Do you think that the groupthat you're with is the first
one to flirt with that waitress?

(47:46):
Do you think she doesn'tunderstand the rule of tips?
And so the idea is that don'tgo there, because if you go
there you're going to screwsomething up.
But if I walk into any place onthe face I don't care if it's a
restaurant, gas station,convenience store, anything else
and I walk in and go, clearly,make an announcement of it.
I failed.
Eight minute apps Point me tothe fat grams.
Everybody around me is going tolook at me like I'm an idiot,

(48:08):
or some people are going tolaugh, and the guy behind the
counter is going to go rightover there because he knows what
I'm talking about.
And what did I just do?
I established that the show hasstarted, brian.
And here comes the next act.
And now I'm making it about me,but guess what I'm going to do
Very shortly?
I'm going to switch to it aboutyou.
So clearly, I had a couple ofdrinks and headed back to the
hotel, but I need a Cinnabon.

(48:29):
Where should I go?
Those kind of things are okay,vulnerability is okay.
What you don't want to do is goso far in the vulnerability
scale that you get mugged orrobbed or raped.
Okay, you know what I'm saying.
You don't want to act like adisheveled, homeless Pete
because you're going to betreated like one.
So I got to act like I'm sane,sober and rational enough to get
through this conversation andthat you know what.
At the end of the day, if youdon't talk to me, that's okay

(48:52):
too.
And you're saying that well,what litigation?
That's the ultimate place forit.
Look, you don't have to talk tome, but if you want to talk to
me, this is the last time we'relikely to see each other.
So if you want to tell me abouttimelines and friends and what
was going through your mind,now's the time.
This is for you.
You start saying that to thesuspect that's sitting in a
chair or the person that youthink is going on.

(49:12):
Now you're going to establish arapport because if they're
smart, they're going to lawyerup right away and shut you down
anyway.
Okay, so you might as well havea way of establishing some
rapport early on.

Speaker 1 (49:22):
Yeah.
So and that's one of the ways Ilook at it too is like I try to
give someone, if I'm going toask a question, I want to give
you a range of options in whichto answer your questions.
Because if I think of, like, ifI ask you something very
specific about your thoughts onsomething very specific, like
now I'm cornering you into this,and then automatically some

(49:42):
people are like why are youasking about this, or what is
this?
But if I, if I give you a, if Iask you a question that allows
you to give me, you know, anumber of options.
You know something, greg whatdo you guys like to do on your
free time?
Well, you can talk aboutanything.
You can talk about whateveryou'd like to do.
You drive down here, we go onthese hikes, we take the dog.
Like there's the, I'm lettingyou like lead the conversation

(50:04):
in a sense, right, and so it'sone.
It's less threatening, you'remore likely to be open and
honest, and then that leads tothe follow-up like, oh, do you
ever go down here for a hike?
I've heard that place is pretty, pretty tough hiking area.
Oh, yeah, you know you can gothere or no.
I haven't been there.
But I have been over here andlet me tell you about that, and
so I'm just you're letting thatperson kind of take whatever
path, and then you all you'rebasically doing the way I look

(50:27):
at it is like I'm looking at thepath they're taking me on,
right, that's the analysis I'mdoing.
It's going, they're droppingall this stuff, they're putting
a marker here, they're putting amarker here, they're putting a
marker here, they're putting amarker here.
So I can map that out in asense during a conversation and
go where's this likely headed?
And then, if I do have someintent, do I need to steer it in
a different direction or do Ineed to let them continue going?

(50:49):
Or is this going to leadnowhere because this person's
completely nuts and they'retalking in circles?

Speaker 2 (50:54):
whatever the situation, is Exactly, and now
I'm looking for an off rampExactly, Exactly, so.
So so remember, you have to besmarter than the average bear
without being so clever thatyou're off putting.
So asking a question tosomebody which is implied like I
cannot open this gosh damn app,what's the worst app on your

(51:17):
phone?
And the person goes, oh, by far, it's so-and-so.
I've just established thatyou've got a phone.
I don't know that you have aphone right now, but if it comes
up later in the conversationthat I say, show me your phone
and you have that app.
I've also established that youtied yourself to that phone with
an app.
So those types of things don'thappen spontaneous.
Nobody out there that we'retalking to is a flip in Sherlock
Holmes, and when they werewriting Sherlock Holmes, how

(51:40):
long did it take to write thatnovel and do the research on it?
So you think you're going tocome in and you're spontaneously
going to be able to whip outsome of this stuff.
Brian, it's taken me 50 yearsto get good at having a basic
one-minute conversation with aperson at a gas station.

Speaker 1 (51:55):
So that's kind of what I want to give some folks
for some of the takeaways onhere, and I don't.
What are some of thosequestions that I can do?
So what's one question everyonecould ask more often?
Or how do I start learning howto do that?
What's the easiest way?
Let's say I'm not good atgetting information, or I'm not
good at asking questions, ormaybe they're anxiety and social

(52:18):
awkward, whatever.
That's fine, you can still dothat.
But like we met people whopulled themselves out of some
dark places by forcingthemselves to go have
conversations with people.
Yes, we have?
Exactly, and that was the one.
Yeah, he's like look, I just Iwas horrible at this.
So I would go to the mallduring the day when all the old
people were there.
I'd see an old woman having acup of coffee.
I'd go sit near her and say,hey, I'm just here alone, do you
mind if I talk you up a littlebit?

(52:39):
90% of the time they alwayssaid yes because they had no one
to talk to and I just gotbetter.
It was a really cool exercisethat person had to do.
But maybe I'm past that, maybelike, oh, I don't have that
problem, but what can I do?
Or what step can I take in asense.

Speaker 2 (52:54):
Stop trying to be rigid and play to your strong
suit.
So, for example, a preliminaryquestion like hey, just coming
on shift or just getting off?
When you're walking up andasking it from 30 feet away as
I'm pulling out my ID to checkin, and the person will say
something like why, and youalready look tired?

(53:14):
Or is this place always thisbusy, or am I?
Whatever the idea is, those arewhat I call establishing
questions, where there's noquestion mark at the end of them
, but I'm working up to what isgoing to happen next.
Hey, again, you make this lookeasy.
Or you know, I've been to threehotels so far.
I hope you got my reservation.
I'm putting something like thaton me.

(53:35):
I remember you from last time Ichecked in here.
Well, that's impossible, sir.
I just started working tonight.
All of those are throwing theline out to see if the person's
even emoticum interested inanswering me.
Staying away from theoff-putting always be humorous
or funny or happy, because ifyou come in and you're sad, sack
and you're down, or you'reaggressive or accusatory, you're
shutting doors before you evenopen them.

(53:55):
Pick out a shared topic.
The long drive you just had,the traveling that was kicking
your ass.
My kids are at home.
I hope I get to talk to them.
The medicine I'm on makes meshit down my shoe.
You know, I've got this ailmentthat makes it impossible for me
to enjoy a meal and I got to dozero Walmart around here.
Those type of things rightthere are making you look
vulnerable and allowing theperson to help you, and most

(54:17):
people really want to help you,brian.
Yeah, if I can do thatinitially, then I can set it up
for, hey, what do I need to lookout for when I go across the
street?
Those type of questions, right?
So so you're saying, yeah, butI need to get to this.
Yeah, but you can't go directlyat it.
Yeah, go directly at it.
They're going to go.
It's a red bear and trying toshoot me down over schweinford,
rather than.
This person just is acting outnervous or relaxing or doing

(54:41):
what else.
Like like.
You've seen me at restaurantsbefore, and, and Brian and I are
one of the ones that that wework hard enough at a place that
I don't mind having a gosh,damn, what do you call the
appetizer?
You know, with a Manhattan atthe beginning or something.
So my most common question offirst morning come over is
what's your most popularappetizer?
Then my second question is haveyou eaten it?
And those have nothing to dowith what we're going to order.

(55:03):
Okay, that's to establishrapport with that person.
Do you get what I'm trying tosay?
To see where they're at, andguess what we get most of the
time now.
We get most of the time nowthat the person is so down and
in and they don't understand howto do a conversation, that they
stand there stymied, staring atus.
Well, you know, wondering what?
What do I do next?
You know?
So those are the type of thingsthat you want to avoid always

(55:24):
open-ended, okay, neveraccusatory, even if you're going
to accuse the person to doingsomething.

Speaker 1 (55:30):
Man, that's got to be the fifth or sixth thing you do
, because if it's the firstthing that you do, you're going
to have a short conversationright, yeah, yeah, and that
that's my thing is, like youknow, I would do it with if, if
there's some interest that youhave, yeah, and that you know a
lot about, and then that helpswith a conversation with oh is

(55:50):
that the band about this,because I used to listen to
these guys or whatever aboutsomething that someone's wearing
.
But like again, like you said,if it's inauthentic or I'm
trying to, I don't know enoughabout it it's going to come
across that way.
But like so I got a buddy who'salways into shoes so I was like
telling him it's like, dude,just start asking people about
their shoes.
Like you know everything aboutshoes and style and this stuff.

(56:10):
Like just go like, hey, thoseare cool because you can do this
.
And I have blah, blah and I waslike holy crap, that worked.
It's like, yeah, if, if youfind something you're interested
, it's going to come across.

Speaker 2 (56:18):
And it's got to come across genuine yeah because it
is genuine Jaeger.
Jaeger's got I don't know if Ican say his name.
He got us into one of thebiggest scrums at Bragg that
I've ever been in my life.
So there's a dancing club therewhere people are in a hurry to
take their clothes off, fordonations.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
I'm not going to go any further.
Never heard of something likethat.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
I'm not going to go any deeper and one of the
waitresses who is on and offdancing is the waitresses also
dance at the system.
Largely, yeah, and some of thewaiters that the ones I go to.
But she's larger than thenormal clientele I think that
Jaeger's encountered and so whenshe came by and dropped off his
long neck, yeager saidsomething like hey, you're quite

(57:03):
pretty off-putting, are yousingle off-putting?
And when's the baby due?
Or something.
He made the association thatbecause she was larger, that she
was pregnant and that led tojust bad news all the way along.
The other one he did on theWest Coast when we were at Penn
and we went out and we werelistening to a local band and he
was trying to talk to theMadison Chief of Staff and he

(57:25):
looked at the band and he goescould you guys turn it down?
We're trying to have aconversation here.
Okay, those.
The reason I love Yeggs is he'sknown for those.
Okay, he's known for coming outswinging and it's always
created a scrum.
But you know what the end ofthose scrums were.
We could rein it in and laughabout it later and get some
information out of somebody.
So what I'm trying to tell youfrom that one is my final piece

(57:49):
of advice for this segment is ifyou make a mistake, okay, that
doesn't mean the mistake is afatal mistake in your
conversation.
You can always back up.
You can always say I'm sorry.
You can always start up.
You can always say I'm sorry,you can always start over.
You know what I'm saying andyou can always tap out Folks.
I've been with Brian longenough that if I'm not getting
anywhere I look at him and I go.
You try and Brian tries hisangle, and between both of us

(58:11):
there's enough STDs and STIs outthere that we're probably going
to hit on common ground thatwas one way to put it.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
Okay.
So we, we, on that note, no, we, we, we covered a lot on this
right and so which we weimplicitly were talking about.
Some of the most importantparts of the conversation are
the context that you're in, howit's being delivered, what the
dynamics are, and and and thatthat's all more important than

(58:40):
really just trying to ask theperfect question or trying to
elicit information out ofsomeone in some manner or use
the perfect flow.
It's just getting better atknowing your style and how you
are and what you like and thenrealizing, hopefully, that,
hopefully, that other peoplethink differently and you have
to sort of let them tell youwhat, whether or not you're

(59:02):
having a conversation that day,because then they're, they're
teaching you either a man, I'mtoo busy or I'm not putting up
with you, or they're, they'regoing to tell you whatever you
need to know.

Speaker 2 (59:11):
And so what have you seen?
What have you seen?
You've seen that the baselineis that people want to tell
their story, and what we do iswe pass the narrative and then
they fill in all the blanks forus.
They do.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
The humans are on transmit, so let them transmit,
Don't don't you just tune, tunethe you got to tune into the
right frequency, not not put on,don't be afraid of trying the
knobs, you get what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (59:31):
Adjust adjust, adjust and then, uh, don't be afraid
of shutting up once in a whiletoo.
I rarely shut up, okay, but thesame thing is that you've seen
me in conversations.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
When it's important, I always shut up.
That's the other thing and youkind of mentioned it earlier is
that that's sort of a lot ofpeople don't like awkward
silences.
I I thankfully I don't feelawkward in any of those silences
and so you're awkward all thetime.
Well, and so you know.
But people will fill it withsomething, or they feel like it,
or you will feel the need.
People will feel the need tolike oh, I should, I need to say
something or ask questions.

Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
Exactly, you really don't A key is listening to
Brian long enough and watchinghim turn his head slightly and
go, go on, go on.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
And that will get people to divulge everything.

Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
Try it one time.
Look, we say these thingsbecause we've vetted them and
they work for us, and all we'resaying is try it.
Your way might be stellar, itmight work for you all the time,
but we're talking about beingable to talk to your kids, or
your neighbor's kids, or yourneighbor who has your kids in
the basement, whatever is goingon, and doing them all with
equal aplomb.

Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
All right.
Well, I think we'll.
We'll give in some otherexamples and stuff for for
Patreon.
I think there's a couple ofthings that we can do on there,
kind of how to set that up andwe'll do that for our Patreon
subscribers.
But we covered a lot, as usual.
Folks, if you have anyquestions, you can always reach
out to us atthehumanbehaviorpodcast at
gmailcom.
Check out obviously more on ourPatreon.

(01:00:56):
Any other final words?
Greg.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
No, I'm hot, so I don't know if anybody cares.
I look like Marlon Brando inApocalypse.
Now here the whore.
I'm not feeling well buddy.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
Well, we appreciate everyone for tuning in, and for
our newer listeners too, weappreciate it.
Folks, if you can't go to thePatreon site, just share the
podcast with a friend.
Tell them what you like.
It really helps us out a lot.
So we do appreciate those ofyou doing it, and thanks for
those who continue to reach outto us.
We appreciate everyone.
Thank you for listening.
Don't forget that trainingchanges behavior.