If It Walks Like A Duck

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Mental errors don't just lead to embarrassing moments—they can be fatal. When your brain categorizes something as familiar and routine, it filters out critical information that could save your life.

The duck versus platypus problem perfectly captures this dangerous cognitive trap. Both creatures share remarkably similar features—broad bills, webbed feet, semi-aquatic lifestyles—but only one has venomous spurs that could put you in the hospital. When you mistake a platypus for a duck, you've missed the most important detail.

Through two powerful real-world examples, we unpack how this error pattern repeats in high-stakes environments. A paramedic, responding to what appeared to be a routine medical call, was fatally stabbed by a patient with a violent history he never knew about. Law enforcement officers, celebrating their successful drug bust, failed to properly search a suspect who was carrying a loaded gun all the way into the jail. In both cases, what people thought they were seeing wasn't what was actually there.

The second analogy we explore—outrunning your headlights—explains why we miss these critical signals. Sometimes we're moving too fast to process what's in front of us. Other times, we've forgotten to turn on our mental headlights altogether. Either way, we're blind to dangers lurking ahead.

Our brains are wired for this type of error. Each time we successfully navigate a situation, dopamine reinforces the pattern, making us more confident and less careful the next time around. We follow our unconscious roadmap rather than creating our own, questioning, and exploring the territory.

This episode isn't about blaming victims of these errors—it's about recognizing the universal human tendency to miss critical information when we think we already know what we're dealing with. By slowing down, paying attention to incongruent signals, and getting comfortable with not immediately knowing all the answers, we can create the space needed to see things as they truly are.

Have you encountered your own duck versus platypus situations? We'd love to hear about times when slowing down and questioning assumptions made all the difference in your life or work.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone and welcome to the Human Behavior
Podcast.
Today we're breaking down twoof our favorite analogies that
highlight where sense-makingoften goes sideways, especially
when lives are on the line.
First up, the duck versusplatypus problem.
Just because something looksfamiliar doesn't mean it is A
platypus.
Looks like a duck, swims like aduck, but it's got venomous
spurs and if you miss thatdetail it could kill you kill
you.

(00:20):
Next, we're talking headlights,specifically outrunning them.
Whether you're driving too fastto see what's ahead of you or
forgot to turn them on in thefirst place, the result's the
same You're blind and bad thingsare coming fast.
We unpack two real-world casesthat perfectly illustrate how
these mental errors show up inthe field and how easily
confidence and routine can setthe trap.
This episode is about slowingdown, paying attention and
recognizing when your brain isabout to walk you into a mistake

(00:42):
.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
We hope you enjoyed the episode.
Don't forget to check out ourPatreon channel for additional
content and subscriber-onlyepisodes.
If you enjoy the podcast,please consider leaving us a
review and, more importantly,sharing it with a friend.
Thank you for your time andremember training changes
behavior.
All right, craig, so we'rerecording and we got a good one
today.

(01:03):
So today, everyone, we aretalking about a few things.
We're talking about ducks andplatypus, headlights and a whole
bunch of other things, and letme just start off by explaining
what I mean by this.
If you've ever heard the saying, if it walks like a duck, talks
like a duck and you know, actslike a duck, whatever it's, it's

(01:25):
a duck.
Well, there's also somethingthat's very similar to a duck
and if you're not familiar withthis, you can go down the
internet rabbit hole after thisepisode but it's something
called a platypus, which a lotof people, a lot of people,
don't even know, when you talkabout it, that it's a real,
actual animal.
I think you've seen it like acartoon or something they're
like wait, a platypus is real,but the idea is the duck and the

(01:48):
platypus have a lot ofsimilarities.
They both have broad, flatbills, they have webbed feet,
they're semi-aquatic, they livein and around the water, they're
excellent swimmers, they bothlay eggs, which is actually
extremely rare for mammals.
But they kind of look similar,they act similar, they talk
similar, but the key differenceis that a platypus has venomous

(02:14):
spurs on its hind legs and nowthey're kind of used for?
Yes, they can be used fordefense and things like that.
They're toxic.
They're actually used forreproduction, almost like a
roofie type situation there.
But there's other uses for it.
But if you get stung by thoseit could really hurt you, and if

(02:34):
you're a little kid orsomething like that could
probably kill you.
So the point is not everythingis a duck that looks and walks
and talks like a duck, and sothat's sort of my preface right
there about that.
I'll get into why we're talkingabout that in a minute.
But we're also talking aboutheadlights.
Today Sometimes we outrun ourheadlights if you've ever heard

(02:59):
that meaning you're drivingfaster than what you can see,
and then sometimes we completelyforget to turn the headlights
on and we're driving blind inthe dark.
And so what I'm getting withthese analogies and we're going
to jump into a couple of casesand explain what we mean is that
it's a big thing we talk about.
People often mistake a duck,thinking it's a duck and it's

(03:20):
actually a platypus, or theopposite, where they're like oh
man, that's a platypus, it'sgoing to sting us and it's
really just a duck.
And sometimes there's there'skind of opposite ends of the
spectrum where we're we're go,go, go, go go.
We're onto something and we'reI start outrunning our
headlights.
We miss really important thingsand then sometimes obviously

(03:50):
you know we're, we're, we forgetto turn them on at night and
we're driving blind in the darkand so we're going to hit
something, we're going to runinto something, and so those are
the kind of two main topics,greg the duck, platypus, analogy
, and then our headlights.
So I'll throw to you to kind ofset up the story and some of
the examples we're going to use.
But this is something that'scommon.
All know these all the time.
This is everything that we talkabout, basically summed up in
headlights and and ducks andplatypus.
So I'll let you kind of be theone to to set up the story and

(04:14):
and make sense of what the hellis brian talking about today so
a couple of things.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
First of all, if we use the beginning of this, I
think we could get aninvoluntary commitment for brian
.
If we gave no context and justhad you blabbering about ducks
and platypi, you know that'shilarious.

Speaker 1 (04:27):
Well, that's not.
That's not hard to getinvoluntary commitment.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
And anytime you just have me talk to a mental health
professional, they'reimmediately hitting the red
button Cancel my afternoon callsand our good friend, our ground
branch guy from New Zealand,jason Jones, if you're listening
, spent a lot of time inAustralia and New Zealand says
that platypus tastes just likechicken and also you brought up
toxic reproduction, which infact is under my photo in my

(04:54):
high school yearbook.

Speaker 1 (04:55):
You know what I'm saying.
I was going to say there's alot of people who are the
product of toxic reproductionand we're out.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
You know what I mean.
And the call's over productionand we're out.
You know what I mean and itcalls over no.
So so look, those of you thatare our listeners, that were
lucky enough to visit thepowderhorn guest ranch and you
came in on the road to themiddle of nowhere, which was
just beautiful in the primitivewilderness and everything you
remember passing reese tree.
It was a huge old willow thatgrows by the savoy on a dirt

(05:24):
road to nowhere.
I mean, there's only a coupleof ranches back there on that
road and there's huge scarringon the tree from people hitting
it.
And so, based on my own researchand the research of the people
that lived in the valley and whyit was named after Reese, is
what happened is people at nightwould outrun their headlights.
You're on a dirt road, you'regetting to go real good at a
clip, you know the road by heart, and then all of a sudden

(05:46):
something steps out in front ofthe car or you get into a little
bit of a skid and overcorrect.
You don't want to go into theriver, which is on your right
side, you don't want to go intothe mountain, which is on your
left side.
So guess what?
You're per dork a tree.
And what happens is we all dothat.
Look, think of the beginning ofStar Wars, not Star Wars, star
Trek, ooh, she was my favorite.
Oh my God, the masturbatoryfantasies.

(06:06):
But I want you to think ofbeing driving and all of a
sudden the snow is coming at youand you make the mistake, at
night, of turning on the highbeams.
And when you turn on the highbeams, all of a sudden it
becomes overwhelming.
You can't see shit through yourfront windshield because the
snow is taking everything.
Well, that's what happens toyour mind.
Everything.
Well, that's what happens toyour mind.
Your mind gets clouded and allof a sudden you're driving and
then you go a little bit faster,and a little bit faster you

(06:26):
think, oh my God, I have to getthere.
I have to get there right now.
It's important.
Well, here's two capers, brian,that we can talk about today,
that both talk about outrunningyour headlights and it can be
fatal, and both of them dealwith the platypus.
So the first one briefly, andfolks, do your homework, it's in
the story details and Brianwill have all the links set up
for you.
The first one is very simple.

(06:47):
There's a female going down thefreeway that's bleeding.
Somebody calls EMS.
Ems shows up Sure enoughdisoriented female walking in
the media and they know nothing.
They know nothing about it, butit looks a lot like a duck and
the duck is bleeding.
So they get her into the backof the rig and while she's in
the back of the rig with theparamedic, she pulls out a knife
and stabs the paramedic fatally.

(07:09):
He ends up dying on the way tothe hospital.
Nothing they could do.
Not only that, but jumps out ofthe back of the rig and tries
to steal the vehicle.
So she's overpowered by acouple of coppers and other
firemen.
Listen, that copper that savedthe vehicle couldn't save that
paramedic.
Why?
Because God, buddha, vishnuAllah put these things out in

(07:30):
the open for us.
And guess what?
They're covered.
They look like a duck.
It's just another call, brian,it's just a female in distress.
What they didn't know is thatshe had just bonded out for an
assault on a copper a day beforethat, that she had a violent
and unpredictable history.
So here a guy doing his jobencounters the platypus, and
this sting was vital.

(07:51):
Okay, now hold that in yourmind for just a second, then we
can break these down.
Second story copper's doing hisjob, copper, and it doesn't
matter male, female, I don'tgive a shit about those things.
Think about the story and thinkabout the heart of the story.
You can always look it up anddig deeper on your own.
But copper sees a sled go byand says those windows are
illegal tenant.
That's great.

(08:12):
That's great because copper isinterested and wants to look at
their environment and, as beingcurious, picks this car up and
now it's a legitimate stop, it'sa legal stop.
On the stop goes this guy'sacting squirrely and I'm getting
the information through mysenses, my five senses, that
there might be drugs on board.

(08:32):
Now, based on my experience,that means at this point I call
two people.
I call window tent guy toconfirm the tent so I can write
the ticket, and I call dog boyso dog boy can bring the dog by
and see if the dog hits on it.
Sure enough, dog hits on it.
Long story short, do yourhomework.
They captured a guy.
He's got narcotic paraphernaliain the car.
Further search determines thathe's got two types of drugs on

(08:55):
him.
Then they get him back and hemakes some rest, just a
statements, and they get asearch warrant based on his
interview and interrogation.
And you guys know what I'mtalking about.
That street interview, restjust I statements go a little
deeper.
Now he's in custody, he's notfree to leave.
He makes statements that areprotected.
That's what the whole caper wasabout.
And they execute a searchwarrant on his house, brian,

(09:15):
they get gun components and theyget more drugs and they get all
this other stuff.
Great caper, but but.
But this guy started outlooking like a platypus and once
they had him in custody helooked like a duck.
No further information needed,buddy.
He's fine.
Guess what they do when theyget to the jail they pat him

(09:37):
down and he's got meth and someother drugs with him and he's
got a loaded gun Headlights inboth.
Pump your brakes once in a while, because if you're out running
your headlights and it looks toomuch like a duct, you're going
to relax too soon and that couldbe fatal.
In both instances you hadpeople doing their job and they
were doing it well, brian, butwhat happened is now, on this
caper with the tinted windows,do you see how the entropy and
the centripetal force and thethird law of thermodynamics are

(10:00):
starting to pull in, the secondand third on this one?
And all of a sudden, whathappens is you're going fuck,
we're hitting a thought Pardonmy language You're hitting a bat
in a thousand.
And then what happens?
Some guy up in the jail goes.
Hey, what about the bag of dopeand the loaded gun?
That could have been a fatalsting too.
So, simply put and I apologizefor the rant we sometimes get

(10:20):
into misadventure, and thosemisadventure can be fatal,
because we don't consider theentire picture of what we may be
facing over.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
And these are two kind of examples of one, sort of
outrunning the headlights right, you've already got a search
warrant and searching his placeand this guy hasn't even been
properly searched yet.
And this guy hasn't even beenproperly searched yet.
And then the other one,obviously being the you know,
never even shined a light on it,never even thought of this,
never turned the headlights onto see if this could potentially

(10:51):
you know what this couldpotentially be, and so you know.
They're good cases forcomparison.
And here's why, first of all,with the paramedic, fireman
shows up like that's the.
You know they're coming fromthis.
And we've got plenty of folksthat have reached out to us from
different agencies and shoutout to the distinguished savages
Walt, who is, you know, threedecades in EMS and is a first

(11:13):
responder, and but you know it'syou're going in there, going,
I'm here to care for someone,I'm here to do this Like you're
not coming in.
From the same perspective as,like the law enforcement case
you mentioned, where it's okay,I'm here to arrest this, I've
got probable cause.
Now I've got this.
Holy crap, this is, this isgood, like you said, this is the
, this is everything's laid outin front of me, right.

(11:36):
And so that's kind of when wemiss the, the, and it goes back
to the duck, platypus, thingslike well then, I don't, I don't
see it.
That right here is is, is the?
Is the threat?
And and neither one of those inthe similarity in those two
situations is that the sort ofdeadly threat was, was right
there in front of your face andand they didn't see it.
So that this is, this is the,the, you know the, the crux of a

(12:00):
lot of these problems where weget into and talk about errors
and sense making, but it's not,it's the how to see part right,
it's the recognition that thiscould be, yeah, it's likely a
duck, but it could be a platypus.
So what elements would lead meto see that?
And then, same thing, theopposite.
Okay, we've got him, he's incustody, it's this, it's no

(12:23):
longer a threat, it's like, well, that's not necessarily true.
And so balancing those twothings out, I think, is because
if you go too far in onedirection, you're going to be
hyper-visual, and if you go toofar in the other direction,
you're just going to becompletely oblivious to your
surroundings, right, so it's.
How do I go back and forth orstay in that middle area where I
can see and handle those things.

(12:45):
And that's what the whole duckplatypus analogy is.
It's a comparison, it's an MLMDCOA, it's is this everything
that I expected it to be or isit not everything I expected it
to be?
And so the reason why theoverarching reason why these
things happen is because we arewired this way for it to be.
And so the reason why theoverarching reason why these

(13:05):
things happen is because we arewired this way for it to happen.
Right, I get a hit of dopaminewhen I do this, and I'm correct,
and I'm correct in this overand over again.
So my brain goes aha, I knowthis.
And it just gets rid of allthat minutiae.
Oh, don't worry about that, Ialready know where this is going
.
So it's now pulling you alongright, rather than you

(13:27):
determining the path and wherethis is going.
So your brain, your unconsciousbrain, your own you know thing
that's that's meant to keep youalive and can make all these
great decisions and can do allthese amazing things, is leading
you to your death or leadingyou to a place that isn't good,
unknowingly, unwittingly, in asense, right, and so we're just.
Yeah, the hook gets sets in andI follow that, and I follow

(13:50):
that and ooh, a piece of candy,ooh, a piece of candy.
Ooh, a piece of candy.
Right, and that's why we fallinto those traps is go well,
rather than just following alongwith what your brain, your own
self, your own unconscious mindis telling you to do, what's the

(14:11):
path you want to create?
And how do you explore that?
Because I may have to poke myhead around this corner to see
what's up, and then poke my headaround this corner to see
what's up, and they go yeah, youknow what, we're good on this
one.
All right, you know, and, andand that's the essence of time
and distance.
But you have a lot of peoplethat say, well, you're not
always going to have the time.

(14:31):
And I say, yeah, you fucking dolike you always have you
actually do, you always have thetime, and if it's, if it's
something that's so, the the thesimple ones are the obvious
ones.
Where it's obvious that youdon't have time, well then that
means that it's such asignificant threat, or so
obvious that it is, or it's soobvious that this is just benign

(14:53):
, that it's easy.
Those are simple problems thatanyone can figure out Like you
don't even need a lot oftraining or experience to see
those.
It's all the ones in betweenthat are a little bit more
complex, where everyone wants tohave these different attitudes
about it.
Greg never wants to say like, ohwell, this could happen.
It's like, well, no, thatcouldn't.
But you guys are saying, well,this could be the platypus.
It's like, yeah, but show me,Prove to me that it is, Prove to

(15:14):
me that this is different thanthe one that you're going, that
you're typically used to seeing.
And what measures have you putin place to sort of regulate
your own response to thesituation, to regulate your own
thinking?
I don't mean like response,like okay, step back, do this,

(15:35):
draw your weapon or tactictechnique procedure.
I mean how are you thinkingabout this and how are you
approaching this?
Because you're jamming insolutions and you haven't
clearly defined the problem yet.
And that's the biggest thingthat I see with these situations
, Greg, Does that kind of makesense?

Speaker 2 (15:47):
I don't know.
So it makes too much sense.
So I'll tell you this, and thisis Brian, and I've already had
three or four Zoom calls and aTeams call this morning, and so
we jump into this with verylittle or no thought.
We exchange a couple of emailsand say, hey, here's the topic
for today, and I wrote down ifyou're a trainer, if you're HR,
if you're a copper, courtscorrections, a lawyer, if you

(16:09):
work anywhere in any job, getout your yellow pad Because I
wrote down, in just the lastfive minutes and 30 seconds,
seven things that you talkedabout that are huge, that you
could turn into training.
So, first things first, go outand buy yourself a life game.
Go to the secondhand store youdon't got to buy, you know the
most expensive one.
Open it up, throw everythingaway except that little spinner

(16:31):
thing in the center, break thatoff of the game and take it with
you to work.
And no matter what you do atwork, what I want you to do, I
want you to spin that andwhatever number that that lands
on corresponds to a card thatyou've created with a conundrum,
with a problem with thesituation, mental health issue
at work, at home, you know asucking chest wound while you're
driving down the freeway,whatever it is that you're

(16:53):
likely to encounter in your job.
I don't know your job, you knowyour job.
So you wrote down, write downsome of those things and have
basic and intermediate andadvanced things and you know
what.
Every once in a while, justspin that dial.
That's a lot like life, and ifyou have an answer to those
things that are coming up andit's just theoretical, you got
to work a little harder.
Well, I bought Shelly a gun forChristmas.

(17:13):
Let's say, well, you know whatelse I bought with her?
I bought the proper holster, Ibought some range time and I
bought a first aid kit for herand the person that she shoots.
Okay, well, maybe that's theway I think you get it, because
that's a plan and plans work andso if I do the life game, that
offsets what I got to talk about.
Look, probable cause neverdiminishes.

(17:34):
We have boobs that are stillout there in our industry and I
love some of them, but they'reboobs because they're saying,
well, you can't control time.
Yeah, you can If you don't go,you're controlling time.
If you put it in reverse,you're controlling time If you
make a mistake and shoot firstand kill an unarmed guy.
You're controlling the time.
So the idea is do you want tocontrol time or do you want to

(17:54):
have time control?
You Stop it for a minute,because what you're doing is
you're teaching coppers thewrong way.
You're teaching people that insome instances you just got to
flip the tire and climb the ropeand just gun it out Okay, but
those are so few and far betweenas to be remarkable, and you're
shooting nine times out of 10,and you're not thinking one time
out of 10.
That balance.

(18:16):
Prim did a good LinkedIn on it.
Look up Greg Prim LinkedIn thisweek.
He did a great story on that,folks.
So what does that lead us to?
I'm in an ambush in Iraq, brian,and the idea is that I think
through the ambush and I writedown some things, because a
person died in the ambush and itwas so stupid because we were
teaching.
Probably 600 feet away, maybe1,000 feet away from where the
ambush attack occurred, we heardthe gunfire went out.

(18:37):
Soldier that's doing gate guardwith a trusted partner said hey
, I want to get a photo.
And a guy goes yeah, we can geta photo.
And he goes hey, step back.
No, step back further.
No, we want to get the gate.
And then ends up.
The coalition member shoots theAmerican soldier and kills him
by getting him to pull away fromhis partners far enough that

(18:58):
after he shot him he could runaway.
What is that?
Duck platypus 101.
What is that Outrunning?
Is that Duck platypus 101.
What is that Out running ourheadlights?
And I felt the same way when Iread the story back to your
point on dopamine about themedical call.
That paramedic had done 10calls that day, 15 calls that
day, and guess what?
He had the dopamine dump everysingle time that he went out to
help somebody.
He wanted to be Hippocraticfirst, do no harm and help.

(19:20):
He didn't want to go.
Hey, this is the lady thatmight stab me to death, but you
know what that's on that lifespin, you got to spin that son
of a bitch.
And every once in a whilepicture yourself surrounded by
gosh damn yellow evidence tape.
You know the tape that sayspolice line, don't cross.
And this would have been aperfect situation where, based
on the situation, perhapssomething was different.

(19:40):
We never know, we can'tinterview him and the woman's
not going to tell us, but theidea is that what was in his
head at that time and place iswoman on the freeway needs our
help.
I'm here and she's bleeding.
We have to slow the clock down,brian.
We have to take a look at thesituation and go.
In this instance, if it's drugsor mental health, do I need to
do a cursory search foroffensive weapons before I begin

(20:03):
?
Should I have somebody elsewith me?
And somebody right now is goingwell, you would have never
known that.
If he worked on the fucking jobfor a day, he would have known
that, heard that, saw it or beentrained in that.
Now am I blaming the death?
Am I victim blaming this?
No, I feel shitty that he diedand she should go to the
electric chair of the firingsquad.
But the idea is I can't turnback time and imagine how

(20:27):
important it would have been ifthat person would not outrun
their headlights on that day.
One thing could have changedeverything, brian.
So let's go to that final goshdamn thing.
When you talk about those guysgetting safer, the further they
were in the police station, it'sexactly what happened to their
brain.
We used to call that on theroad to happy.
You know, you know the guy's inthere.
He's now in, booked inprocessing who's going to die?
Well, I'll tell you, the Warrenpolice station in Warren,

(20:48):
Michigan, is named aftersomebody that's going to die
when, at the last second,somebody goes Yahtzee and pulls
a gun out of their crotch.
The idea is that you and I haveboth been on these same
incidents, and I don't want to.
Both of us have been in a firealarm in a gosh damn university
setting where nobody did shit,nobody even got up to check, and

(21:11):
I was at a fire alarm in anairport that you'll remember
that I videotaped the entire,whatever you call it, on a phone
.
Now I get to that videotape.
I taped the son of a bed's, nottape.
I recorded it.
No, recorded whatever.
Yeah, I don't know what's theword is right, I captured it.
Okay, I captured a lot ofthings, but I captured that
entire thing and you saweverybody was saying run for an

(21:32):
exit.
This is an actual fire, this isnot a drill.
And nobody even got up from theStarbucks, nobody got up from
their chair.
So, brian, we fail to considerthese.
Then we go to training andsometimes training goes over.
Oh my God, do the body drag,drag, throw the flashbang, do
the shooting.
What we're talking about is anexercise in psychology and

(21:54):
sociology and in pathology ofthe internet.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah, so we in you know, we we cover that in in
other episodes about you know.
You know, the more I'm exposedto something, the less likely I
am to to see it and or or the.
You know the every time, the.
You know who even looks when acar alarm goes off anymore, you
know, I mean because we hearthat stuff or there's sirens,
like you said, the.

(22:16):
But my biggest here's what, what, what fascinates and interests
me, brian, we go third personhere, right, always, which is
why you know, part of the reasonwhy I'm in this line of work,
in a sense the, into traininghow we respond and how things
change, right, we do like abreakdown or an after action of

(22:57):
an incident or a thing, and thenwe just randomly pick something
in there that we're familiarwith, that we think we can
control and say that's theproblem, if only we had better
optics on our weapons, if onlywe had better this, if we had
that or if we had thistechnology that could do this.

(23:19):
And we're, we're just soentrenched in that way of
thinking because I but we are,but we do that with with
everything.
Oh, you know what I?
I didn't, I didn't, I didn'twash my underwear and we won the
big game.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
It's because I didn't wash my underwear again.
You know like.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
I mean, it's it that sounds stupid, but that's how
I'm telling you, this is howeveryone thinks.
All of us, me, you, everyone,like, we just arbitrarily say,
well, I think it's because ofthis.
And then, if we get enoughpeople to agree with it, that's
what we do.
And it's like wait, how did youarrive at this point that this
is the thing we need to address?

(23:55):
Because maybe there's athousand issues or contributing
factors to a situation and youchose these as well.
Now we have to write thispolicy to do that.
And it's like well, hang on,what were all the things that
played into this and why didthis person get here?
And like and then we come upwith a new term for something.

(24:16):
And then it's because of that.
And it's like what?
What we're?
We're conflating issues andwe're not going to the.
The underlying issues with allof these are are these errors in
sensemaking?
I, I didn't see something thatI was supposed to see.
I didn't recognize this when Ishould have.
I failed here.
But these, these are, these aresort of cognitive problems.

(24:41):
These are, um, you know, theseare principles that you can.
You can align and follow tosolve for X in any situation.
So we get so hyper-focused on.
This is the we get so focusedon well, what's the best
decision?
It's like well, fuck, itdepends on what the context is.
It's like well, each one isdifferent.

(25:04):
But even though each one ofthese things are different,
there's underlying things thatoccur in all of them.
Right, you know, it doesn't,doesn't matter what it is.
If it's a parent who missestheir kid is suddenly changing
behavior because it's slowly,over time, like you miss this
and you should have seen thiscoming, but you didn't.

(25:25):
So it's the school's fault, orit's the gun's fault, or it's
like no, no, no, no, hang on, Iunderstand this is difficult.
Maybe you don't know how to doit, but these are all the things
that went into this problem.
So how do we want to addressthat with now, with a solution
that's going to get reallycomplicated sometimes,
especially if you're talkingabout, like, a policy or a law

(25:48):
or something like that.
That's going to get complexbecause that's the application
of it, but just to determinewhat can and cannot be done,
what's in your control andwhat's outside of your control.
It, it, it.
That's where you to me, that'swhere you start.
So what and this is just backto what I first started this.
This and this is just back towhat I first started this, this
kind of part of the dialoguewith is is.

(26:08):
This is what fascinates andinterests me so much, because
why you did this to me.
There's so many things thatpeople just attribute value to
and I'm like that has fuck allnothing to do with anything.
And you can't get them on andthese are smart, reasonable
people, and we all do that too,and stuff, we all do this stuff.
Are reasonable people, and weall do that too, and stuff, we

(26:30):
all do this stuff.
Oh, it must be because of that,oh, it's because of this, it's
like.
Oh, it's like.
Well, how do you know that?
Can you prove to me that youknow if you had known that or if
you had this different?

Speaker 2 (26:38):
tool or tactic.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
It would have changed the outcome because it would.
If you had that already, well,it would have changed your
approach.
So, so it would have been adifferent outcome, but maybe
that outcome might be worse,brian if you brought that up in
court they would say cause forspeculation.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
Your Honor, it would be an objection.
So if you can't use it in court,then you can't use it in the
realm of science.
So I will make Brian's point,which he made very succinctly,
but I'll make it by turning theHoberman three quarters of a
turn and looking through theorange side.
So you know, if you're along-time listener, if you're
first time and did any researchwhatsoever, that Brian and I

(27:12):
used to take the time to breakdown videos and we haven't done
one in a long time and we do itin class still.
But the difference is betweenus and everybody else out there
that breaks down a video.
They're all going to tell youwhat everybody did wrong and
suggest tactics and training.
Okay, what we do.
We don't give a shit about whathappened at X on the bubble.
We say, look at all thesepre-event indications that went

(27:34):
on that were missed and look athow that could have informed
what happens later.
So we don't show the stabbingor the shooting or the crash or
anything because we don't care,frankly, about that.
There's somebody out theremaking money selling you shit to
fix that.
But what we do is we take thetape and we break down.
Like every day on LinkedIn, I'minundated and I probably get, I
would say, reasonably, five orsix requests where somebody says

(27:55):
, hey, have you taken a look atthis video?
What do you think?
And I won't even answer themanymore, because what I see is
frippery.
I see somebody going.
Well, when this agent steps uphere, or when the cop moves this
way to the left, notice theshadow on the back of it.
That's all horse shit, that'sall speculation.
You don't know, you weren'tthere, you don't have the
eyeball witness.
But can we use it for training?

(28:16):
Yes, we can say.
How was it that this personstood behind this planter with a
gun for 40 minutes before heloaded up this guy in a
limousine and nobody saw himthere?
How did that happen?
That's called dead space folks.
That's called dead space folks.
That's called, you know, usingnegative space.
You're going to use a UAV, usea thermal.
There's answers to every one ofthese things.

(28:40):
But what we do is we go thereand we speculate on the moment
of contact and say, look at how,out of control, this guy Look,
this guy took a taser, then hetook a spray, then he did this.
This is why you need training.
No, you need to anticipate.
This snowflake is somehowdifferent than all the other
snowflakes that fell on mytongue and therefore I'm going
to have to ramp it up, ramp itdown, back it up.
Get more people.
The idea is the gift of time,and distance means out thinking

(29:00):
a cunning opponent, and if youdon't, then you're going to be.
Look, if you're within arm'sreach.
I got sued by the White AryanResistance because I had a
program called Within Arm'sReach, go To War, and it was for
kids and females back in theday in Detroit and the idea so
the Klan won that one, brian.
But think about this the ideawas that if I can touch you, I
can kill you.
So you've got to stay outsideof that span.

(29:23):
If you think of nothing moretoday than that, if you think
that road rage never ends, well,if you think that if I don't
check my fuel gauge, my car willrun out of fuel and if I don't
check the air in my tires I'mgoing to get a blowout, when I
need the car to flee the goshdamn ax wielding guy at the lake
, okay, those are things thatyou should do, and we're back to

(29:43):
spinning that gosh damn lifewheel.
Brian, how many people do youknow do that?
What we face is people that go.
Well, I'll tell you what?
When somebody's kneeling onyour throat and got a knife to
your eye?
Brian, come on, we've had morecar alarms and fire alarms than
we've had people kneeling on ourneck and trying to stab us.
And, yes, those things happen.
But guess what?

(30:04):
You're spending so much timepreparing for this item that may
never occur in your entire life, and none on saying what would
happen just before that personknocked me down.
What would happen to put me onthe ground in that situation,
and how could I avoid thosethings?
I'm telling you what I side forthat.

(30:25):
I side for the gift of time anddistance and everything.
Is there going to be the oneday you step on your porch and
get hit by an asteroid?
Yeah, but you know what?
There's some things out of ourcontrol, but time and distance
aren't out of our control.

Speaker 1 (30:36):
Cover so it's not out of her, so one of let let me
let me kind of sort of kind ofgive you example of how I think,
where they, where the errorsoccur, in a sense, right so.
So, whether it's a policeofficer pulling someone over, or
you look at like the afteraction review or a witness
statement or something when itcould be a school shoot or

(30:59):
whatever, when someone goes, youknow, I always thought that kid
was this, but I didn't.
Or I thought something seemedoff, but I didn't want to say
anything, or hey, I thoughtsomething was off, or I saw this
.
So what?
We would say, okay, you werepicking up on these incongruent
signals.
You knew it didn't fit abaseline.
You knew there was somethingthere.
You didn't know what it was,you'd never seen that before.

(31:20):
You don't have experience orsomething.
But I think people don't spendenough time in that space of not
knowing, like, like what I?
What I noticed too, is like,like I'm very comfortable not
having all the information, notknowing, like you sort of have
to be uncomfortable going fuck,I don't know.
We got to the point where Idon't know, and what I mean is

(31:41):
it allows you to continue togather information and
hypothesis tests.
Okay, there's something offhere, clearly right, is there
something?
Something?
We got this, whether it's atraffic stop, whatever, okay,
but what?
What are?
And this is what I mean by justfollowing along with your brain
, that unconscious brain is itwants the answer.
It's forcing you to an outcome,to to something, and so it will

(32:06):
fill things in to fit theanswer that it already came up
with.
I mean, this is just, I mean,it's heuristics, how it does.
Oh, cognitively close enough,this is what that means.
Right, well, that's, and that'sthe central issue is, if I don't
say, well, okay, this isincongruent, let me go find out
why, okay, this part is stillincongruent, let me find out why

(32:30):
.
Hey, hey, this hasn't fallenback down into the to the level
of just another thing that I'mgoing to do.
Yet it's, I'm still continuingto get these incongruent signals
and then, over time, as thosecontinue to escalate and build,
whether or not they escalate,you just continue to see them.
It's like you are on.
This is the thing that is goingto be bad, like otherwise it
would have fallen back down.
Something.
You're, you're, you're, you'rebecause you have a lot of great,

(32:53):
just intuitive, decision-makingskills.
You have a lot of experience asa human.
So, when you got that gutinstinct.
always people go like okay, well, yeah, we wouldn't be, we
wouldn't be alive, right?
So it's like so you're telling,because I've had it where

(33:14):
someone's like, well, so you'retelling me, look, I know what
this is, I trust my gut.
It's like, yes, yes, you shouldalways trust your gut, but you
can't be sure of what the answeris, you can't be sure of the
solution.
You can be absolutely sure thatyou are seeing something that's
incongruent and it doesn't makesense and and you might not be
able to find out, you might notknow why.
So that's my point is like well, stay there, then Figure out.
Well, why is this anincongruent signal?

(33:35):
Why do I feel this way?
What is it about the situation?
And that goes back to us goingwell, what's typical, all right.
So your brain says I know, thisis typical.
I got a gut feeling that thisisn't typical because it knows
it has a comparison that it'susing.
So it's going okay.
Well, continue.

(33:55):
If you don't know theincongruent part, then stick
with what's typical.
What should you expect to seeIf everything is normal and this
is gonna be a routine thing andnothing is gonna happen that's
out of the ordinary?
What else would you expect tosee, and then you can compare
your future observations to getit.
And then we call that justupdating the baseline of what

(34:16):
that is.
But that mental process is notcalorie intensive.
You know what I'm saying,especially when you practice it.
But it doesn't take much,because it's great to know a lot
, but it's also the next beststep is knowing what you don't

(34:37):
know is a huge step forward.
So go ahead, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
No, no, no no, listen , preaching to the choir on this
one, brian, but I don't knowEverybody at home, I don't know.
I'm asking Brian rhetorically,of course.
Isn't that an aspect of beinguncomfortable?
See?
So when we talk about, you know, get comfortable being
uncomfortable.
The idea is that I don't feelcomfortable because I'm reading

(35:06):
something incongruent in mybaseline, and so Brian used the
term typical.
Well, what's the antithesis oftypical?
It's anomalous, it's somethingthat sticks above or below the
baseline, or a bolo, and yourbrain will make order out of
chaos, with or without you.
Which would you rather it be?
Think of that for just a second.

(35:27):
So let's talk Hangover Psych 101, because it's the timeline that
Brian's talking about, and manyof you, if you're still
listening, are probably drinkingonce in a while.
So you get really shit-facedand you shouldn't have.
And so all of a sudden you gotto be at the big business
meeting or the kid's soccer gameor whatever else your divorce
proceedings, sorry, brian,whatever else it's going to be.
And then you know you've drunk,drank too much, and so you know

(35:50):
you're drunk still when youwake up and you go okay, this
hangover is so bad it's going tobe with me all day and I know
that I'm going to vomit becausemy body can't process all of
this, metabolize all of thisalcohol.
I'm just not sure when it'sgoing to be.
So then you got to do the hardmath.
Should I get up and do it rightnow so I get it out of the way,
or should I mope around all daylong?

(36:11):
Or should I take a homeopathiccure?
That's what we're doing inpolice work.
That's what we're doing in HR.
We're going look, this is goingto be a shitty outcome and we
all know it's going to be ashitty outcome.
But how can we push it furtherdown the line?
My thing is don't rip theband-aid off fast.
The idea is that if you getused to rehearsing and

(36:32):
practicing and hypothesizing Iloved your term, hypothesis
testing again what might happenin situations then you'll simply
come up to gating mechanisms,most likely course of action.
That person standing next to mycar is just in the shade of my
car and smoking or vaping.
Or that person could be aviolent, dangerous felon that's

(36:54):
going to do a carjacking.
What would I need to see toconfirm my suspicion?
By adding a few seconds from aposition of cover and just
maintaining your observation.
Then you're going to know thatand you're saying yeah, but I'm
a cop, I got to hurry to thescene.
Why we got the red and blues,that's why we got the siren.
No, because what you're doingthen is you're creating an

(37:14):
inevitability, because the slopegets slipperier, not easier,
when you get to the scene,especially if it's something
like a mental health issue.
Look, the family's dealt withthis person for years and you're
going to solve it in secondswhen you get on the scene.
Has dealt with this person foryears and you're going to solve
it in seconds when you get onthe scene.
No, they called you becauseit's out of their control.
But what did you relegate it to, brian?
Well, get out of the way, I'llhandle it from here.

(37:36):
Yeah, okay, you see, what we dosometimes is is we create a
situation where we think we haveall the answers, and and I'll
go back thousands of years, allthe way to yesterday, and tell
you the best scientists sayalways question your hypothesis,
always come into the roomsaying that I'm the dumbest
person here and I don't know.
You'll learn more and you won'tmake those catastrophic errors.

(37:59):
And here, brian, when we talkabout law enforcement, we're
talking about a catastrophicerror can kill you or me, or a
bus full of kids on their way tothe museum, and that's
unacceptable, right yeah, andyou know, sorry I'm gonna get
bailey just joined me in the inthe studio here she's uh going

(38:20):
to come up in the corner therein her spot.
It's great dog here.

Speaker 1 (38:23):
That's why I kept the door open, so it's like it's
been too long yeah, so you wellspeaking of being speaking of
being the dumbest person in theroom uh, let me speak from that
perspective.
No, that this is.
We're.
We're constantly being thrustinto situations that are already

(38:44):
in progress, and that's notnecessarily a police call.
I mean, that's like I, you know, walk into my daughter's room
and she's doing something.
Okay, there's something goingon here and I'm the new thing
that is entering the scene, soI'm going to have an effect on
that.

Speaker 2 (39:04):
And if I don't have a Whether you want to be or not,
yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yeah, it doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter what thesituation is.
You know everything interactswith each other.
You change the outcome.
You know you bump intosomething a little bit of you
stays on.
That little bit of that stayson you, right?
This is basic physics, right?
So if I walk in, and what didyou call, sorry, hostile

(39:27):
reproduction yeah, that's theone.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
I got a good reproduction toxic that's.
That's sexual assault yeah,yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:36):
So toxic is.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
Toxic is some is when it's consensual, and still not
a good thing so, but, uh, butbut uh back to what I was saying
so if I look at everything asan interaction, yes and how I'm
interacting with this event thatis in motion or a person that's
in motion Like it.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
It kind of helps me see well, if that thing is in
motion, it came from somewhereand it's going somewhere.
So how did my interaction withthis either change the outcome,
change the direction of whereit's going I can't change where
it came from, right.
But getting an understanding toknow whether, if I'm crossing a
street and there's cars comingright, is that vehicle coming at

(40:23):
20 miles an hour and I've gottime to cross the street, or is
it coming at 75 and it's goingto plow into me because it's
going too fast.
Right, that's how it is.
I can look at that and make afair assessment or a judgment,
just based on my knowledge andexperience, and say, okay, this
likely came from somewhere Idon't necessarily know where,
but it has a start point.

(40:44):
And then there's an end pointsomewhere with the situation, or
a continuation or a new placethat it's going.
So when I come in, how do Ichange that outcome?
Just right off the bat, just meinteracting with the situation.
And this is gets back to why Ialways say like you can, you can
, you know, influence theoutcome of every situation
you're in, no matter how dire itis like you, no matter how what

(41:06):
little control you have, youstill influence the situation
that you're in.
So I think, going into that,knowing about that with the
right mindset of looking at it,and how to do that with the
different tools, like the stuffthat we talk about and know my
limiting cognitive factors,what's going to get my and which
are the same limiting cognitivefactors of the person I'm
interacting with they're playingby the same set of of human

(41:29):
behavior rules that you aremaybe not playing by the same
laws or or values or ethics, butbut the the physics is physics
and and I know there's a lot westill don't understand about it.
But but there's, there's rulesthat we do understand, right,
and there's human behavior, andthere's still a lot we don't
understand about it.
There are rules, especiallyespecially the more defined that

(41:50):
context and situation is, theeasier it is to determine likely
outcomes and what's going tohappen.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
So you don't have to go in with well, anything could
happen, or you know what wedon't have the time, listen to
what you just said and everybodythat's out there write that
down.
The more extreme thecircumstances, the easier it is
to come to the outcome, becauseit becomes inevitable or binary,
it decides for you, rather thanyou having to worry about those
things, and that can.

(42:16):
So may I depose you for aminute because you brought up a
couple of great points there andI think people at home might
not have caught up at your speed.
So, brian, since we've workedtogether, do you know of, have
you read about or have I sentyou articles on different people
paramedics being killed by theperson they were treating?
Yes, at least five or six timesthat I know that I've sent you

(42:39):
those articles where coming outof much more than that, yeah.
Yeah, but but I would say that Iwould testify to at least five
or six above the one that thatwe're talking about today.
Would that be a fair assessment?

Speaker 1 (42:51):
Yes, so in that same period of time.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
Would it be a fair assessment to say that you and I
have discussed train deaths,where people got hit by a train,
whether they were standing orwalking or driving, and killed
About a thousand people dieevery year in the United States
being hit by a train, and Iwould say that you and I
personally have talked aboutprobably 35 to 50 of those
incidents that I would swear tothat that's accurate, would you
agree?
Yes, so let's use the trainexample for just a second.
Trains run on a track and itimmediately becomes a duck.

(43:38):
And you've got, I got plenty oftime to get across this chariot
wheel track.
You know the width of thechariot wheels, or where we get
the distance between the tworails on the train.
That's for the thinkers in thegroup.
I can get across that four feetin no time at all.
And guess what happens, brian?
You're hooked, you're roped,because it was a platypus the
entire time, with its leading,with its spurs, and you're going

(44:01):
to get hooked and you're goingto get bit.
And it's like a scorpion Notall of them will kill you, but
one of them will.
It's like a snake Not all ofthem will kill you, but one of
them will.
And guess what?
When your luck runs out, thenyou're in the effing trick bag,
right back to spinning that lifewheel.
So if we use that train, whichis always full of turbulence and
friction, even when it's on agood heading, even when it's
doing a good thing, then that'sgot to slow your roll when

(44:23):
you're taking a look and go look, I don't want to outrun my
headlights, so let me pump thebrake once in a while to make
sure I know what's going on here.
I remember being on a shootinginside of a freeway Am I lying?
And a person looks at me andcomes up and goes what can I do?
And I said, hey, do youunderstand that this is a cop?
It is a fatal shooting and thesuspect is down because the

(44:43):
young person didn't.
They didn't understand thegravity of the situation, brian.
So therefore they were ready torun in, but they weren't sure
and the house was already onfire.
You get where I'm going.

Speaker 1 (44:54):
So, with your train analogy, literally just the
other day.
So I'm driving the insurgent toschool in the morning and we're
behind a school bus, right, andit comes to the complete stop
right before the train tracks,and they open the door and the
insurgent she'd never seen thathappen before like that Like.

(45:17):
And she's like, well, why isthat?
What?
Like what's going on?
Cause she says she's observantshe's like what's this?
Good, what is it Bus drivergoing to take off?
Are they kicking someone offthe bus?
Or something Like what's goingon here?
That's hilarious, right?
And I was like, no, we werejust having this conversation
this week.
I was like like a thousandpeople in the United States get

(45:38):
hit by a train.
And she's like, okay, well,yeah, I go, yeah, but I go think
about it.
The train is on a track, youknow where it's going.
And she's like, oh, yeah,that's weird, required by law,
when they come to train tracks,they have to stop, come to a
full, complete stop.
The driver has to open the door, he has to look down the tracks

(45:59):
and look the other way toensure.
And she's like, well, thatseems like a lot.
I was like, yes, and as long asthey do that every single time,
they will never get hit by thattrain.
And she's like, wow, I had noidea.
And so this, your train analogyis perfect because she got it
right away.
Because I'm like, well, thinkabout, think about that, that's
different than a car accident.
She's like, well, why?
I was like, well, car accident,cars can hit each other.

(46:20):
I go, a train is on the trackand I just saw the smile on the
light bulb going on.
And she almost went like howcould you possibly get hit by a
train when it's on?
She immediately got it.
It was like how dumb would you?
Have to be.

Speaker 2 (46:42):
And I have to be.
And I was like.
Well, I was like, it's notabout being dumb, I go to
certain things happen.
There's, you know, listen,science can be tricky.
So, brian, you remember growingup as a kid, before stepping off
the curb, the safety patrolwould tell you stop, look,
listen.
Okay, the idea was you also hadto look both ways, remember,
and you also want to do it morethan one time.
It's like lead-off hitter at anintersection when the light
goes green, you don't hit thegas, you look around because
that one person on the phone isstill coming.
They didn't notice the lightturned red.
If we everybody listening tothe sound of my voice if we

(47:05):
agree that stop, look, listen isa good thing, and that stop
before a railroad track and lookin both ways, then why do we
fight the urge to run straightto the scene, you know, with gay
abandon, and not even thinkabout the situation that's going
to be facing us, thinking thatthe faster we get there, the
better it's going to be for us?
No, you have to be.

(47:25):
Look, turbidity and turbulenceand friction are in every
meeting and sometimes it canturn to good things, a home run
off your bat but sometimes itcan turn to bad things your
skull getting crushed by a batyou got to consider that when
you're doing your training.
So any instructor that's outthere going oh, they
oversimplify One kiss my ass,the fattest part.

(47:47):
And two, take a look at whatwe're talking about.
We're talking about from thebeginning of the first time you
think about becoming a cop or HRteacher or any of those other
stuff.
You better be training, justlike Brian is with the insurgent
, you better be training peopleto outthink a cunning opponent.
Here the cunning opponent is agiant lumbering train that's
moving so slow but it stillfools a thousand people a year.

(48:10):
Think about that.
Take a minute and think aboutthat.
There's your on-duty roll callfor tomorrow, brian.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
Yeah.
So this is up to the duckplatypus and headlight example
is that's one.
I mean, how many times you saidhey, when someone's like, oh,
what do you guys do?
And you go, oh, we're sellingflashlights.
Right, we're looking around inthe box of good ideas that we're
not thinking outside the box.
We're selling a flashlight forpeople.

(48:36):
To look around inside that box.
There's a lot of good ideas inthere.
And then the duck platypus isjust that sort of memory,
emotional link.
It's a way for me to recall orunderstand, like, hey, is it a
duck or is it a platypus and howcan I prove it?
And these aren't simple things.
We talk about them in't simplethings.

Speaker 2 (48:58):
We talk about them in a simple manner.
If there were, people wouldn'tdie.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
Yeah, exactly Well yeah, and the duck platypus one
is.
You could go on and give allkinds of different or use it for
a number of different reasons.
You know they're actually aduck and a platypus is a great
example, greg, of somethingcalled convergent evolution.
They're actually a duck and aplatypus is a great example,
greg, of something calledconvergent evolution, that's
where unrelated species evolvesimilar traits due to

(49:22):
environmental pressures.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
So if biology?
Now, who's the smartest guy andthe dumbest guy in the room?

Speaker 1 (49:30):
Well, but it goes back to if biology know, said
that this is how things evolveand you know what?
Sometimes some unrelatedspecies are going to evolve
similar traits due to theenvironmental pressures, due to
the situation that you're inover time.
Right, it's just, it's anotherway to look at it.
But you know, the balance thereis always.

(49:52):
Am I, you know?
Is this what it seems to be?
Is it not what it seems to be?
Did I miss something?
And that sort of questioning.
I think some people kind ofoverdo it.
Right, those are theoverthinkers, the people who
can't make a decision, who aretrying to come up with too much.
And I think what adds to thatis that idea of, well, you don't

(50:15):
have enough time, or you don'thave all the information, or you
got to have this, or we got todo something now, and you rarely
ever do, and when you do, it'sobvious.
And I see that stuff out there.
Someone literally wrote anarticle saying well, sometimes
you just don't have the time andit's like, well, yeah, if

(50:38):
that's the way you think, ifthat's the way you look at
things, then you're right yeah,you are going to fulfill that
prophecy.
Exactly and that leads tomissing things that are all of
those prevent indicators.
And that type of thinking leadsto one binary decision making
Well, it's him or me.
It's like, oh Well, there's afew options in between there,

(50:59):
but you're going right to that.
Okay, so that's what forcesthat, and you're just following
your brain along that track.
You're following thatunconscious roadmap when you can
make your own roadmap, andmaybe it's not going to work out
exactly the route you want itto be right, because it's going
to change.
And I'm going to update myhypothesis over time.
And I'm going to update basedon oh, there's new traffic

(51:21):
conditions, I'm going to takethis route instead.
Oh, there's a constructiongoing on over there.
So you know what?
I'm going to jump over to thisstreet instead.
Right, that's what we'retalking about is, rather than
just following the fucking GPSand following what the Google
Maps tells you, like, yes, it'sright a lot of the time, but it
doesn't know everything that youknow, it doesn't have the
conscious ability to processthat incoming information and

(51:45):
question it, so it just givesyou the answer and that's what
your brain does.
It just goes here.
Just go here here, make a left.
It's where you go and the timeand distance factor is where
that that gets.
I don't know, it changes thecalculus a little bit if that
makes sense.

Speaker 2 (52:01):
I think that that coppers, if you're our copper on
a call, and especially ifyou're a boss, think about the
way ntsb conducts investigationsand look back and you'll see
that there's trends and if youfollow the trends you'll follow
the danger signs.
So what we're talking about?
Pre-event indications thatwould show a reasonable person
that there's trends and if youfollow the trends you'll follow
the danger signs.
So what we're talking about?
Pre-event indications thatwould show a reasonable person
that shit's about to go sideways.

(52:22):
The other thing is to take apage from Scott Mann's great
book about no one's coming tosave you.
Lieutenant Colonel Scott Mann,dear friend, great guy, I
haven't seen you since LewisMcCourt.
But I would ask Brian, what wasthe name of the pilot on the
Hudson?
What?
was that guy's name in a churchdown in Texas.
Okay, you know we keep thinking, brian, because we're humans.
We keep thinking that's all wegot to do is have that guy there

(52:44):
or be that guy.
What I'll do is I'll raise mystakes to be at the level of
that.
No one's coming to save you.
You're all you got.
So you've got to outthink thatcunning enemy.

Speaker 1 (53:00):
And to do that, brian , you've got to give yourself
that gift of time and distance,buddy.
Yeah, and the NTSB one is agreat one because they go
through everything, they see howit happened, what were the
contributing factors, and lookat all the data and then they go
, and even when it comes down to, oh, it was pilot error, they
don't just go okay, it was piloterror.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
They go okay, well, what error did they make and why
?
And then they find out like oh,you know what?

Speaker 1 (53:25):
Or it was hey, that pilot actually was making the
right choice, but he was makingit based on incomplete
information because of thisother thing that occurred.
So to them it was the rightdecision.
However, if they had known thisthing, or if they had seen that
, or if they had heard thisradio transmission, they
wouldn't have done that, butthey, there was a hot mic at

(53:46):
that time, and so you know, Imean, this is how things are,
everything.
Yeah, yeah, uh, totally okay,well, that's a whole, that's a
whole episode for that one.
So I only got.
Uh, let I only got.

Speaker 2 (53:58):
I know you want to round the wagons.
I only got one more shout out,if I can throw it on this
episode before people startturning out.
Shout out to Force Science, billLewinsky, dr.
Bill stepped aside and BrianBaxter, from Texas, is the new
CEO.
Brian Marin and I both knowBrian Baxter from his body of
work.
We both commented on hisLinkedIn post before.

(54:20):
Seems like a great,level-headed, experienced vet
and former copper.
So congratulations to Baxter.
Good thinking for Bill to stepaside and do other things, and
it looks to me, like you know,we've had a long relationship
with 4Science Love-haterelationship maybe sometimes,
but this is a great thing forthem.
So congratulations, heartfeltcongratulations, to Brian Baxter

(54:43):
.

Speaker 1 (54:44):
Oh yeah, yeah, I'm sure he'll appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
Yeah, like they look at us.

Speaker 1 (54:48):
Yeah, we, we, we.

Speaker 2 (54:50):
I'm sorry, I listen to us, Brian, and I listen to
them, but I don't spend a lot oftime listening to us.

Speaker 1 (55:01):
Well, I don't know about that, but so we talked
about a lot here in the duck,platypus, you know, is it a duck
, is it a platypus?
And improve it.
And then the headlights, man,are they on?
Am I outrunning?

Speaker 2 (55:13):
them.
I mean, these are just simpleways to look at it.
Yeah, I love that that's.

Speaker 1 (55:19):
that's why we use those simple analogies, or I
guess it would be a metaphor.
We know it'd be an analogy.

Speaker 2 (55:25):
The simile.
It's mixed up sometimes.
Just make it up.
Well, it's not a simile.
It's not a simile, all right.

Speaker 1 (55:34):
well, don't start, thanks everyone for for tuning
in.
Don't forget that we do havemore stuff on the patreon site
and thank you, shout out to ourpatreon subscribers always reach
out to us.
Maybe we should do an episodeon toxic reproduction we do that
on patreon, that term, oh yeahyeah, that would be, that would

(55:55):
be a good one.
But yeah, always reach out to usand and give us some some you
know, anything you want us tocover or talk about or some
questions.
We're more than happy to answerthem.
Of course, our patreonsubscribers you get.
We answer you right away.
Reaching out as a fan.
It might take me a little bitto get back to you, uh,
depending on the workload duringthat week, but but yeah, I will
answer it.

Speaker 2 (56:15):
Workload that's the weekend load, greg, the drinking
is the.
Let's not start talking aboutload.

Speaker 1 (56:23):
Well, we, we, we appreciate everyone for tuning
in.
Thanks so much.
And don't forget that trainingchanges behavior.