School Safety and Security with Dr. Kenneth Trump

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Join us this week us for an eye-opening conversation with Dr. Kenneth Trump, a renowned authority in school safety with a distinguished career spanning more than 40 years. Dr. Trump takes us on a compelling journey from his early days tackling gang issues in Cleveland schools to becoming a pivotal figure in school safety consulting. Learn how his academic background in social services and public administration laid the foundation for his relentless commitment to integrity and practical solutions in school security.
 
 During the episode, Dr Trump shares some interesting insights into the world of school safety including the influence of private equity and aggressive lobbying by security vendors that often lead school administrators astray. Dr Trump also explains why flashy, high-tech security measures might not be the silver bullet they're marketed to be, and why fundamental practices often get neglected. He shares real-life examples and lessons learned from historical tragedies that underscore the importance of human factors, training, and communication over costly gadgets.
 
We also tackle the complexities of school safety funding, especially in a post-COVID world and we discuss the critical roles of various school staff, from bus drivers to custodians, in maintaining a secure environment. 

Towards the end of the show we get into the rising trend of holding parents accountable for school shootings, with recent cases shedding light on this controversial issue. Through our dialogue with Dr. Trump, we emphasize the need for leadership, community involvement, and effective training to foster a balanced and sustainable approach to school safety. Don't miss this insightful episode packed with expert knowledge and practical advice.

Thank you so much for tuning in, we hope you enjoy the episode and please check out our Patreon channel where we have a lot more content, as well as subscriber only episodes of the show. If you enjoy the podcast, I will kindly ask that you leave us a review and more importantly, please share it with a friend. Thank you for your time and don’t forget that Training Changes Behavior!

Dr. Ken Trump: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kentrump/

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone and welcome to the Human Behavior
Podcast.
Join us this week for aneye-opening conversation with Dr
Kenneth Trump, a renownedauthority in school safety with
a distinguished career spanningmore than 40 years.
Dr Trump takes us on acompelling journey from his
early days tackling gang issuesin Cleveland schools to becoming
a pivotal figure in schoolsafety consulting.
Learn how his academicbackground in social services

(00:20):
and public administration laidthe foundation for his
relentless commitment tointegrity and practical
solutions in the school industry.
During the episode, dr Trumpshares some interesting insights
into the world of school safety, including the influence of
private equity and aggressivelobbying by security vendors
that often lead schooladministrators astray.
Dr Trump also explains whyflashy high-tech security
measures might not be the silverbullet they're marketed to be

(00:43):
and why fundamental practicesoften get neglected.
He shares real-life examplesand lessons learned from
historical tragedies thatunderscore the importance of
human factors, training andcommunication over costly
gadgets.
We also tackle the complexitiesof school safety funding,
especially in a post-COVID world, and we discuss the critical
roles of various school staff,from bus drivers to custodians,

(01:03):
in maintaining a secureenvironment.
Towards the end of the show, weget into the rising trend of
holding parents accountable forschool shootings, with recent
cases shedding light on thiscontroversial issue.
Through our dialogue with DrTrump, we emphasize the need for
leadership, communityinvolvement and effective
training to foster a balancedand sustainable approach to
school safety.
Don't miss this insightfulepisode packed with expert

(01:23):
knowledge and practical advice.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
We hope you enjoyed the episodeand please check out our
Patreon channel, where we have alot more content, as well as
subscriber only episodes of theshow.
Enjoy the podcast.
We'll kindly ask that you leavethis review and, more
importantly, please share itwith a friend.
Thank you for your time anddon't forget that training
changes behavior.
All right, hey everyone.
Thanks for tuning into thisweek's show.

(01:46):
We've got a very special guestby the name of Dr Kenneth Trump.
But before I actually let himintroduce himself, I do have to
make a little note Montrose,colorado, where Greg is at right
now, because, uh, to get newtires for his FJ for the pros

(02:07):
you unfamiliar with where Greglives high up in the Rocky
mountains, he has to, like, gothrough a pass.
Uh, ask a guy several questions, uh, or someone to ask him
several questions.
Then he gets on like a floatingraft across a river.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
And it's like a Monty Python episode.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
It really really is so, um, so, uh, greg is, is is
mobile today, but we have goodconnection, everything, so we're
good.
But, um, I know we got a littlebit of an intro uh to our
special guest today.
First of all, dr ken trump,thank you so much for coming on
the show.

Speaker 3 (02:37):
We're excited to talk to you today yeah, great being
with you guys follow your workand uh seems like we have a lot
of thoughts in common.
Appreciate the invitation.
Yeah, we do.
We have a lot of thoughts incommon.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
Appreciate the invitation.
Yeah, we do.
We had for those of us who hada great call a couple of weeks
ago with some of our folks, ourteam, and talked to you because
it's the same thing.
We've been following you onLinkedIn especially, and reading
a lot of your work, and so ifyou could, for our listeners,
just to start out, give a littlebit about your background in
school safety and then kind ofwhat you're doing right now,
because it's important I wantpeople to know that you've been

(03:07):
in this for a while right,you're not a suddenly new
subject matter expert on schoolshootings but so if you could
give us a little bit of yourbackground and what you're
working on now.

Speaker 3 (03:16):
Yeah, appreciate it.
And usually when I startpresentations on conferences
nationally, I say I'm going tostart by answering the
background question thateverybody really wants to know.
With 40 years of experience inschool safety, a doctoral degree
, decades of experience ofworking with school shootings,
answer the number one questionthat's on people's mind, no

(03:37):
relation.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
It's important to get that up front.

Speaker 3 (03:44):
The elephant in the room.
Really, it's a great ice forprayer.
It's not a political statementand, uh, everybody usually
laughs because they're goingyeah, that's really what we
really wanted to know.
Okay, now let's see now let'sget into the material.
Uh, so yeah, actually, uh,literally started in junior high
school.
Uh, and Cleveland schools theyhad at the time, late 1970s,

(04:07):
they had court-ordered crosstownfederal or court-ordered busing
due to racial desegregation,order inequities in court over
academics, crosstown busing, andpart of that created a division
of safety and security.
So I was a Cleveland schoolstudent sitting in and for those
of us who were, uh, matureenough not old mature enough to

(04:31):
remember high school typingclass or junior high typing
class anybody actually, I guessit's keyboarding now I'm not
even sure what it is now.
I don't think they even do thatnow so guy walks in the room
with the two-way radio, goesback to the teacher and I get
called back and I'm going wait aminute.
What did I do?
You know?
She said Mr Conner wants you totype his duty report.
She says you're the fastesttyper and do the best job.

(04:55):
I'm like who is this guy?
What's this about?
Well, that led to free pizzabecause they owned a pizza shop
on the side and did his reports.
Went on to high school, used tohang out in the security office
there, do their investigation,the duty reports, more pizza, a
little pay under the table atthat time, a few bucks for a

(05:16):
high school kid, and the restturned out to be history.
The day I graduated, the deputyprincipal said you're not going
anywhere.
Hang over here while you'regoing to work on your bachelor's
degree at Cleveland State.
I got a bachelor's in socialservice, criminal justice
concentration.
I went on while I was stillworking in Cleveland District to
get a master's in publicadministration and while I was

(05:39):
in the schools it developed,especially with gangs.
We had rival youth gangs.
One of the unintendedconsequences of mixing kid rival
neighborhoods with thecrosstown busing wasn't
academics, it was they mixedrival gangs so we'd have gang
riots in schools.
Developed a specialty doingthat.
Really got into working withthe gangs.
Ended up creating a five-personteam with 127 schools, 73,000

(06:03):
kids strictly working on gangsfor the school district anywhere
from talking to second graderson why they shouldn't join gangs
and dealing with parents tomediating disputes that were
leading up to a drive-byshooting, threats at dismissal
to actually the streetenforcement investigations in
cooperation with Clevelandpolice.
So caught a lot of attention tothat.
Got a little side businessdoing training.

(06:25):
Worked in a suburban schooldistrict for three years as a
director of security for theschool district there, assistant
director of a federal fundedanti-gang task force, and then
just went out on my own.
Got a little fed up with thecorruption in school politics at
the point in time and decidedto maintain my integrity and my
freedom of life and not mixingin the politics at the point in
time, and decided to maintain myintegrity and my freedom of

(06:46):
life and not mixing in thepolitics of some of the dynamics
that were going on, took apart-time gig into a full-time
business and now, 40 years ofdoctoral degree later, here we
are doing school security.
It's a lot more complex thanwhat it's been, so I had a great
opportunity to work from theAleutian Islands of Alaska with
one school, 125 kids, theMiami-Dade Chicago Public, some

(07:10):
of the largest districts, andenjoyed doing security
assessments, emergency planning,training and then, as we'll
talk about, I'm sure, a littlebit more, expert witness work,
civil litigation.
I've worked on the massshootings, on the lawsuits, rape
, other sexual assaults, gangviolence and that type of stuff.
So really weird background,weird mix, but that's where I

(07:32):
was meant to be.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
Brian, I just wanted to add one thing Cleveland's
only a couple hours directlysouth of Detroit and I spent a
lot of my formative years, firstof all in the mid-60s, with
busing in Detroit, so Iunderstand that reference.
And then, second part isCleveland hosted the Apple Pit,
a-p-p-l-e Pit, which was thePolice Institute for Tactical
Training.
So I bet during some of thoseyears that we probably passed

(07:56):
each other going back and forth.
That's amazing to me.

Speaker 3 (08:00):
In the same room we used to do a lot of law
enforcement conferences.
In the same room we used to doa lot of law enforcement
conferences.
Actually one of the ClevelandPD guys and I formed the Ohio
chapter of the Midwest GangInvestigators Association, dealt
with McLaughlin and all that.
Yeah, just that whole network.
I got involved with the suburbswith some federal grants so I
got on the speaking circuit withthose different federal

(08:22):
conferences, speaking circuitwith those different federal
conferences.
So interesting mix of publicsafety, law enforcement and
education, which is notnecessarily an easy blend.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
No, but it's excellent this work.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
Yeah, I would say I appreciate you sharing that
experience and to add my opinionto that, is probably why you
have the perspective that you donot just a long history of
being in the schools but dealingwith things like that, with
different you know gang issuesand you know just the normal
crime that schools, especiallylarger school systems and larger

(08:55):
major metropolitan areas, haveto have to deal with.
And so, when the reason why Iwanted for our lessons, why I
want you to cover all that stufftoo, is because you know, now,
because of this epidemic ofschool shootings that continues
to occur, we've got all theseexperts coming out, got people
trying to sell differenttechnologies and you know it's

(09:16):
all very well intentioned forthe most part, for most people
involved in it.
There's a lot of people justtrying to make a buck, which
which I get.
Most people involved in it.
There's a lot of people justtrying to make a buck, which
which I get.
But, um, you know, having a goodfoundational understanding of
what schools really face isimportant, because that's what
people forget in all this.
It's like we're going afterthese low frequency but highly
impactful events, but there'sall of these other problems too

(09:39):
that most teachers typicallyhave to deal with and what all
schools have to deal with.
That kind of all fit into thisprocess, that you can't leave
that on the table, meaning wecan't focus on just one thing
without having some sort ofcomprehensive plan of how we're
dealing with everything.
So a lot of folks just don'thave that background knowledge.
They're not aware of whatteachers are facing on a daily

(10:01):
basis really most of the timeand how that impacts you know
their ability to keep kids safe.

Speaker 3 (10:08):
It's such a unique environment.
You've got to understand schoolclimate, school culture, school
community relations and, mostof all, school politics, or
politics politics as I call it.
Second, first books of politics, of school safety, because you
know you can get the mostdecorated person with the
background in the military andlaw enforcement.

(10:28):
You know captains, chiefs,deputy chiefs come into a job as
director of school security andfigure, you know what.
I dealt with a lot of this atthe.
You know, at the local orcounty level or wherever they
work, they dealt withbureaucracy and politics.
And they come into a schooldistrict like, okay, this is a
whole different world.
It's organizational structureuh, not paramilitary pair.

(10:52):
You know highly structured.
Uh chief says do this, you doit.
No, we do collaboration here.
We're going to form teams,we're going to have consensus or
not, and and you know I used tojoke the process sometimes
becomes more important thanproduct Over the long end.
It's like so it's a whole.
You have to be able to managethat.

(11:12):
And working with schools, Ialways say I'm a three-part
consultant.
One is security and emergencyplanning.
That's really the easiest part.
We know what the best practicesare, we know what needs to be
done.
Second part's communications.
It's highly ambiguous,uncertain at times, a lot of
anxiety the worst that I've seen, highest level I've seen with
parents about school safety in40 years and there's a huge

(11:36):
communication component too.
So that's the second piece andthe third part is political.
It's a political issue Imagemaintenance denial, for in many
cases over the years of problemswe didn't have gangs.
In Cleveland schools I had asuperintendent who said we had
organized youth student groupmisconduct.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
So I'm going OK that don't have drug dealers here we
have pharmaceutical distributionspecialists in the educational
setting.

Speaker 3 (12:05):
Now that the BS, let's, let's get down to dealing
with the problem.
But that's the environment youhave to work in.
Right, it's two thirds of thisdynamic is dealing with the
communications and the politicalcontext.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
And to get to be able to do what you need to get done
on the security and emergencyplanning and the best practices
need to get done on the securityand emergency planning and the
best practices, so on that, whatare the biggest problems that
you see in when it comes toschool safety?
I know that obviouslyeveryone's talking about school
shootings and we just hadanother one recently, but what
are the big problems?
What are the things that botheryou about?

(12:39):
Because it's an industry, nowright, I mean, there's lobbyists
, there's big companies doingstuff, there's, you know, uh,
school administrators who kindof had weren't used to dealing
with this kind of stuff a whileago and then are just going,
okay, well, you guys must be theexperts, you know, you tell us.
So I'm just I want to get yourperspective on what you think

(13:01):
the biggest problems are.

Speaker 3 (13:03):
Yeah, it's a long list, so I'll try to you know,
as we were talking about, let'stry to narrow it down to the top
three.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
Top three if you got them.

Speaker 3 (13:11):
Yeah, that could take an hour or two on its own.
Yeah, the biggest, most currentproblem is the whole issue of
the security vendor.
Hardware product technologyMarketing is on steroids.
It's fueled by private equityin many cases and it's driven in

(13:32):
some cases by lobbyists thesefirms are hiring, they're going
to state legislatures lobbyingon behalf of their product,
trying to get funding shakenloose for what they sell, of
funding shaken loose for whatthey sell.
No coincidence, two governorsactually vetoed line items for
one particular bill because itwas so narrowly written it only

(13:53):
fit the description of the onevendor whose lobbyists were
doing the lobbying.
So that has taken over in thelast, I'd say, three to five
years.
It's had a dramatic impact.
School administrators aresaying I can't cut through the
noise.
That same phrase that we hearover and over again, which I

(14:14):
know you guys can relate to, iscannot cut through the noise.
They're bombarded with vendors.
There are four groups of peoplethat I say generally speaking,
broadly speaking, giving advice.
Number one there are activists,some who may take a gun control
versus gun rights type socialor political agenda.
That's one group and schoolsafety is being used as a peg

(14:36):
for that.
Second part are advocates.
We have a number of parentswho've lost kids, former school
administrators, people who havea particular single incident
experience, and I respect thatand respect their advocacy, and
many will tell you that they'redoing what they do and now
giving speeches and tours is fortheir part of their grieving

(14:56):
process.
But the question becomes wheredoes grieving and advocacy stop
and where does policy andfunding begin?
Advocacy stop and where doespolicy and funding begin?
And that line's getting reallyblurred, and not necessarily for
the best interest, becausethere's money comes a place in
some role, directly orindirectly with that.
The third area is is, uh, youknow, experts and experts, you
know, if you're looking at acourt perspective, it's uh,

(15:19):
qualified in court, and it'seducation, training and
experience constitute experts.
And that could be many peoplefrom many different perspectives
.
And then the fourth part issort of opportunist.
It's the last bucket People who, see, you know, are trying to
put the round peg into thesquare hole or vice versa,
however you want to call it, andit just doesn't fit.

(15:41):
But they're trying to jump in,see some opportunities or what
they believe to.
So you've got all this noisegoing on and principals and
superintendents are telling uswe can't figure, you know, we
can't cut through the noise.
And that's the impact Eitherthey're acting and making
decisions, going down the wrongroute for things, or what I'm
increasingly seeing is they'refreezing and saying I'm just,

(16:02):
I'm done, I can't do anything.
So that's the number oneproblem, most recent trend the
second part of that is relatedto our conversations is, if you
look at the civil litigation,the expert witness work and I
was talking with a reporterabout this earlier I said well,
when you talk about that, peoplethink automatically well,
people are worried about gettingsued.

(16:23):
Well, nobody wants to get sued,but if somebody's sued, it
means somebody has been hurt orkilled.
And if somebody's hurt orkilled, then my field, what
we're talking about, is we'retalking about kids, or maybe
teachers and staff members.
So what do we learn from that?
And having worked on some ofthe highest profile mass

(16:50):
shootings in schools, singleincident, wrongful deaths, rape,
other sexual assault While thefacts and merits vary, the
common fact is that theallegations of failures are
failures of human factors,people, policies, procedures,
training, communications systemsgaps.
They're not failures of hardware, products and technology.
So we're spending all thiseffort with target hardening.
There's a political piece tothat.
Target hardening is being usedby elected officials now to
counter calls for gun control.
There's a huge agenda here inframing these issues.
So people come out after aschool shooting politically and

(17:13):
say, oh, we need gun control,though the counter to that is
now we need target hardening.
So there's a ploy here, there'smoney involved and all of these
dynamics going on, but the keyis it goes back to people.
And if we're skewing ourfunding and our lobbyists and
our legislated mandates totarget hardening and we're doing

(17:34):
less and less on the humanfactors and the people end, and
then we wonder why we're stillhaving problems.

Speaker 1 (17:41):
Yeah, and that that leads to so many different
issues and you know, we alwaysrefer to it too is like sort of
this diffusion of responsibility.
It's like, ok, well, we've gotthis thing that we've got.
Now, we've got these panicbuttons, we've got this, you
know, up armored, whatever.
We got bulletproof this.
And it's like, OK, but thatthat doesn't necessarily one

(18:02):
that's not going to prevent andstop anything.
It may.
It's that what we call at bangthinking.
Right, it's when, when.
So what you're doing is you'resaying this is if this happens,
or we're assuming this is goingto happen.
Here's how we, too, is like,yeah, like you said, you nailed

(18:24):
it with different administrators.
Like, okay, I don't know, allthese people are pounding on my
door, they're showing up sayingthis they have impressive
resumes, you know, or at least Ithink they do.
I mean, that's always the thingI always tell people too,
because I can, you know, beingprior military myself.
It's like, hey, just becauseyou have some tier one guy

(18:44):
coming in here to train you andlike, yeah, they're amazing at
what they do and they had anincredible career.
But that doesn't apply here,like in the least bit, and so.
But we sort of attribute thesesort of skills or knowledge to
people that don't really have it.
And you know, here you're saying, even with the data shows that
these are, these are sort ofhuman centric or human problems

(19:06):
and those things can be fixed,meaning I don't have to build a
better mousetrap, I don't haveto have a better technological
response.
You know we can use theresources that we have and the
people that we have, and I meancause I was talking to recently
to to someone who's safety inschool as well as like well, you
have a population here thatworks here that I'm pretty sure
they didn't become a teacher oran educator or involved in

(19:28):
education because they wanted tomake a ton of money or they
want to do something, likethey're here, because they care,
like their hearts in the rightplace.
So why wouldn't you want tocapitalize on that and use those
folks who are already caringabout what they do and the
students that they have to buildthis sort of network?
So I know, greg, you probablyhad something to add too.

Speaker 2 (19:48):
And Ken, quickly from my side.
Here's the thing Both of ushave spoken to Congress.
Both of us have spoken tocongressional subcommittees I
can go all the way up toDepartment of Defense leaders
and everything.
And when you come in as asubject matter expert, they want
to know what the problems areand how to address them as
solutions.
And the problem is thatsometimes lobbyists have much
more power over us, and I talkedto Brian yesterday with the

(20:10):
client.
If you take a look at hockeygear over the years, when I
started playing hockey, therewere no helmets.
You were lucky if you had amouthpiece.
When we look at the cop work,when I started, bullet-resistant
vests weren't issued.
Nobody wore them until muchlater.
And then Kevlar came out anddid the test and people started
wearing them and then they wereworn under your uniform shirt.

(20:30):
Now they're worn outside like abody bunker.
Then we take a look at footballhelmets.
They've never been a bettergeneration of football helmets
and you know what?
It didn't solve any of theissues.
Now.
It may have made less severetraumatic brain injuries, but
cops are still getting shot inthe head whether they're wearing
a vest or not, and I'm lookingat that, like the paintbrush and
the old Tom Sawyer.

(20:51):
You know, hey look, we'rewhitewashing the fence, we're
doing something, but at the endof the day and you said it last
time we talked, ken you saidwe've got to shake up this
industry because people are nolonger listening.
They think they're pointing atthe problem, they think that
they've proposed a solution andin reality all we're doing is
marking time until the nextshooting.
So I throw that out there as adeterrent, the punch bowl, so to

(21:13):
speak.

Speaker 3 (21:14):
Well, it is, and you know if you hit, if you're
hitting the panic button andthat's your answer to everything
.
Well, if you're panicking,you're too late.
You hit the panic button whenyou're panicking and you know,
and again, follow the money, thegolden rule.
Yes, sir, who's behind thedrive for the panic buttons?
You know more to be seen, butyou can rest assured, there's an

(21:40):
industry, the cottage industry,and profit there as well.
And then what happens is, youknow, you have people who are
well-intended and grieving andthey're advocating that states
mandate that every school, as aparent Well, you know,
politically nobody's got.
Everybody wants to listen tothis person that's lost their
kid's life, and I agree.
And but is that the best use oflimited resources to mandate if
schools want to buy it?

(22:00):
And they've got the funds to gofor it.
But are we for what are weforcing people to do?
And the same with emergencyplans.
I really think we're overlegislating school safety.
Now to the point where you'reputting principals and
superintendents more in anoffice where they're checking
the box and going throughroutines and saying that they're
in compliance yeah filling out20 85 page templates.
I mean you guys will appreciatethis more than perhaps most uh

(22:23):
will.
You know some of theseemergency plans were reviewing
85 to 125 pages.
Now nobody from the custodianto the superintendent knows
what's in there.
And there's one superintendentwho had a shooting in his school
Now retired superintendent saidit best.
He says you know, when thebullets start flying, we're not
grabbing the crisis plan, hesays.
He says it's if we looked at it, talk through it.

(22:47):
Uh got, went through it asteams process this, get some, as
we would say, shared mentalmodels on this stuff beforehand.
He said that part helps, hegoes, but when the stuff hits
the fan, that's we're not goingto the, to the plan.
And the problem is we're goingthrough the motions of doing
something just like.
Just like you say, greg, it's,it's doing, you know, going
through the motions of doingsomething.
Just like you say, greg, it'sgoing through the motions of

(23:09):
painting that fence.
I've got a plan and Stateapproved it and it's sent it to
them and it's like 85 pages andit took good sense yeah and it's
a good one.
It used to be before the digitalworld.
It's a red binder.
It's not only a binder, it's ared binder up on the shelf and
we have one binder.
It's a red binder up on theshelf and we have one and it's
pretty and yeah that.
And then you start opening itup as we actually look at what's

(23:31):
in there and even when you haveit, we're going why did you put
that in there?
That doesn't make sense or it'scontradictory.
And who does it turn out to begood for?
It's good for plaintiff'sattorneys when they're suing you
because they will you?
know, on page 74, dr So-and-so,I'm a superintendent it says
that you shall do this.
And now we've got one otherthing We've got.

(23:53):
You know, there's an effort bylargely driven by consultants
and security vendors that aretrying to create an industry
standard.
Asis International now create asafety, now creates a school
security committee and it's astandard and they're going to
put this out there.
It's over 100 pages and by oneword count had more than 200

(24:14):
shells.
Well, anybody that's donelitigation work knows the
difference between should andshall.
It puts you in some real tight.
I'm not giving legal advice, butit puts you in a real tight
spot in a different position andwho's for people from outside
the industry forcing things inunder the industry without the
industry's input.
And what I respect, you know,is like in our conversations is

(24:35):
there are transferable skillsand ideas and behavior, stuff
that you guys are the experts in.
That's totally.
And Dr John Joe Johnson wetalked with at length just on
her research.
I mean there's stuff out therethat's transferable, that's new,
that's shifting it up a littlebit and it's not coming in a
shining object for $10 millionthat you can put at your front

(25:00):
entrance way that still doesn'tcatch the weapons that you claim
it does.

Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, that's the thinkvice-thing attitude and you
know that we all share that,and Joan is a wonderful resource
for that, with decades ofexperience conducting studies
and research.
And you know, in this fieldit's the least amount of study
and research because there'ssuch a small control group to
measure and every incident is sovaried and different.

(25:26):
And then you talk about thepsychographic and the dynamics
and all these other things.
Yet I've never seen aproliferation of more so-called
subject matter experts and Ithink we need to say so-called,
because the idea is, you know, Istay in my lane, I'm the best
in the world at one skill and Ican back that up with all my
bona fides, but I don't commenton CNN on fishing.

(25:47):
You know what I'm saying.
I don't go out there andpurport myself to be an expert
in other places and you trulyare the standard for what an
expert needs to be in this fieldand you're still competing for
time with people that have nobona fides whatsoever.
How did that make you feel?

Speaker 3 (26:02):
Yeah, well, I appreciate that and it's.
You know there's room fordifferent voices and I'm
certainly not the only one outhere, but it's got to be there,
it's, it's, it's unbelievable.
You know the explosion of whatI always say and I've seen this
all the way back.
One of the advantages of beingmature, not getting old, is over
four decades and starting youngin this.

(26:23):
Decades and starting young inthis.
I've been here before Columbine, jonesboro, arkansas.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
Paducah, kentucky, pearl.

Speaker 3 (26:32):
Mississippi, ones that people don't even know
about.
Now we have people that are inschools, that weren't even born,
that are working in schools,weren't even born at Columbine,
that are starting into teachingand stuff or weren't even I
shouldn't say weren't born,weren't graduated from high
school at the time, right, andthey're entering, you know,
they're entering the field.
So a lot of people reallydidn't live through these

(26:53):
experiences.
It's like 9-11, right, you know, I went to the 9-11 Memorial
Museum with my daughter, who's acollege junior, and two
different experiences we'regoing through.
It had the same emotionalimpact on us.
We spent hours there, we wereemotionally drained and we sat
down over at the pub down thestreet for lunch and I said man,

(27:14):
I said I can remember exactlywhere I was sitting.
I literally described it here.
I was in my office, I named thetwo anchors who were on cable
when it was happening, exactlymoment by moment, and she looked
up and she says I'm emotionallydrained.
She says, and to think I wasn'teven born at this time you know
and it's I said this made methink of the school arena right,
there are people who haven'tdidn't live through columbine,

(27:37):
uh, in the state, at leastprofessionally, in these
positions.
Um, and it's like starting, youknow, trying to reinvent the
wheel.
Put the round peg in the squarehole.
It's like starting, you know,trying to reinvent the wheel,
put the round peg in the squarehole.
It's just focus on thefundamentals.
The things that we go intoschools and ask on the
consulting end are a couple ofthings.
Number one are you focusing onthe fundamentals Because you're
looking for a PhD solution andyou haven't passed kindergarten

(28:00):
doing the basic things?
You're talking about the AIweapons detection system, but
your staff member has got apropped open door in the back
and does that every day and hasa sign on the door.
There was one school we were inhigh school, a second visit
several years later.
Great administration, greatdistrict leadership, but human
behavior.
Right, they put a buzzer cameraintercom on the custodial dock

(28:25):
and the assistant superintendenthere.
I want to show you where webeefed this up based on your
last recommendations.
We walk back.
There's a sign by the door.
It says no one.
You should never, ever, not,just never, never, ever prop
open this door.
There's a door propped open withsome towels that have been
laundered in a cart next to itpropped open, and I said, you
know, it's still human behavior.

(28:46):
You're only upside doors.
You put AI weapons detectionsystems, spends millions of
dollars on these questionable AIsystems and what they catch and
what they don't catch and howthey're marketed.
And here, low hanging fruit,you run them between 7 am and 3
pm and then schools are opentill 10 o'clock at night for
athletic events, performing arts, community use of the school.

(29:08):
It's like low hanging fruit,guys.
You can come in here at fiveo'clock, six o'clock and stash
something if you wanted to comethrough clean tomorrow.
It's security theater, it'ssmoke and mirrors, it's
emotional security blanket andit's done to pander to school to
solve political and communityrelations problems, to appease
parents, to give them a shinyobject, to say that we've done
something and you spend morethen.

(29:29):
But, as we've talked about, youcreate unintended consequences,
right?

Speaker 2 (29:33):
And how are you going to implement?

Speaker 3 (29:34):
this Fidelity of implementation is a joke.
You're pulling staff membersfrom other areas of the building
and they're not monitoringhallways, classrooms, stairwells
, where you've got bullying,sexual assault, harassment,
fights going on.
It's critical thinking, I tellpeople.
When we go and start apresentation, the first slide I
have is, unlike many otherspeakers that are kind of pay to

(29:56):
play to get on theseconferences, I said I only have
one thing to sell you that I'mselling you Critical, the
concept of critical thinking.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
Right, yep, and you've got to make critical
thinking and and um, and thisgoes to, you're bringing up some
excellent points and I think,um, one of the problems is we,
the the problem.
A lot of people don'tunderstand this problem.
They don't understand schoolshooters, they don't understand
some of the stuff that happens.
So it's like we're coming upwith solutions to problems that

(30:27):
don't exist or won't help, and Idon't think that that problem
has been clearly defined.
On how to do this, and youbrought up even even to the
point of, when it comes to these, you know, emergency manuals or
different training manuals orthreat management, things that
we're going to do.
Or you know, we want to developa case on someone.
Ok, you have to documentcertain things.

(30:48):
Even the people that put thatout, the experts, so to speak,
the, the, the researchers who'vedone all the work on this stuff
, putting it together, they evenstate in this stuff, like look,
this is not a, this is not achecklist to find a school
shooter, this, there's no suchthing as a profile of a school
shoot Like.
They even state it right upfront in their writing.

(31:09):
They're going like like here'ssome things you need to take
into consideration and itbecomes again.
Now, it becomes like this is apaperweight Like I.
I open this, I read through it80 pages and I'm like what am I
supposed to do with thissomething?
I'm not an investigator, Idon't have law enforcement
background.
I'm a school administrator andI've got three other jobs that I
do for the school because I'm acoach and I do this, and that's

(31:31):
what which makes it moredifficult.
But anywhere I've gone, youhave we kind of forget that
there's a whole community behindthat school.
Whether some parents are goingto be more involved than others,
whether some teachers are goingto be more involved, less, it's
like you go back to like whyaren't we engaging these folks
and then them telling us here'swhat we need?

(31:51):
Because even even the Departmentof Defense has sort of done a
different course with how theyprocure stuff and how they get
new technologies, where beforeit was everyone just you know,
especially during the global waron terror and like unlimited
funding people just coming upwith stuff, with the solutions,
and then going, oh, that's cool,let's buy that, let's buy that.
Now they're like hey, wait aminute, we got all this stuff.
Like let's just define what ourrequirements are, what our

(32:14):
needs are.
There's going to be companiesthat can solve the problem right
.
They're going to come in and go.
We want that DOD money, we'llfigure it out.
So I don't think it's startingwith that Like it's not coming
from the school, it's not comingfrom in there, and then that's
kind of one of the big thingsthat I see occurring.
And then now it goes to thoseparents and administrators going

(32:49):
like well, I don't know, or Igot a buddy who was in the
military and he works for thiscompany and they've got this
cool thing and it's prettybadass.

Speaker 2 (32:57):
So, Ken, let me throw a part B in there before you
answer.
So it'll be two sides of samecoin.
So you have an AED to helpdefibrillate when a person is
down.
How many for a school, andshould they be on each floor of
the school and how many perstudent?
Well, they come out and CNN orsome other talking head said

(33:17):
about the Georgia shooting Well,they only had one school
resource officer.
Every school should have three.
Okay.
Well, where does that fundingcome from?
And where does the training?
What is the standard?
And are they armed?
Or what happens is thesepundits suggest things and
they've done zero researchwhatsoever.
You've been in the field forfour decades, so I would hope
that some of them are coming toyou and going.

(33:37):
Hey, you know, because I hatethe term best practices, I think
we all do, but the idea is thatthey at least come to you and
go what's a good plan, what's awhat's a fidelity filled plan
for the future?

Speaker 3 (33:53):
yeah, and, and that's it.
I mean.
Part of the dynamics is well,there's so many pieces to this
is right, you know, bestpractices is is an education
phrase and really, um, whatworks?
Uh, and the problem it is isnow they're trying to take these
, create this industry standardand then take it through so they
can have an ANSI standard andthen take it to what it is is so
that the lobbyists can take itto the state legislatures.

(34:16):
And then they say there's thisquote unquote national or
international standard and youneed to codify this into law and
mandate it.
So now they're, you know it'sbasically shoving it down
school's throats.
So you're, and it's driven byhardware product and technology
and security consultants and nomatter what they say, you'll be
some good people in thecommittee.
I'm sure that it werewell-intended I already know of

(34:38):
a few that were on there.
But the underlying push herethere's a bigger agenda.
Right, it's's a big.
Why now?
And why not 10 years?
Well, why now?
Is because their private equity, there's money, or there's a
perception that there's money.
Well, here's a little insidesecret for anybody who's
listening.
Don't tell anybody, it's justgoing to be the three of us and
everybody who's who's watching.

(34:59):
Uh, guess what?
The covid pandemic funds moneythat the schools have been using
to buy the shiny objects isdone next year.
It runs out in the next for theschool fiscal year.
So that little bucket of moneythat people have been dipping in
and saying, hey, it's notcoming from our operating budget
, but I got 17 million over here.
I can spend 3 million, buy someweapons detection system and

(35:23):
some panic buttons, calm theparents and, hey you, you know
what, kick it down the road andhopefully it gets quiet.
That's going out.
And then the one-time shot inthe arms state grant.
You look at the Georgia schoolshooting.
One report said that the systemfor the panic buttons cost a
million dollars for the schooldistrict where the incident
occurred.
According to the story, 800,000of that was provided by a state

(35:45):
grant and 200,000 was from thesheriff's drunken driving ticket
fund.
So you've got.
The school didn't pay a dime onthat.
Well, what's going to happen formaintenance, repair,
replacement, upgrade.
We see this with everything,whether it's cameras, whether
it's this type that thatone-time shot in the arm funding

(36:06):
is gone.
That's coming out of operatingbudgets in school districts that
are cutting funds.
It's not going to be there.
So you're going to see I havethis vision of the deal with
like weapons the AI weaponsdetection screening at the front
doors that the hardware isleased, the software is
subscribed.
So what are you going to dowhen you can't afford both?
I'm looking at a repo truckcoming in hauling the hardware

(36:30):
out, right, because you can'tpay your subscription and you
haven't done it.
So then what do you tell parents?
You've given them a false senseof security.
Now you have to explain whyyou're undoing or not doing what
you sold them in the firstplace, which was a bill of
emotional security, blanketsecurity theater.
And it comes down, as we knowand agree on.

(36:54):
It comes down to behaviors.
Yes, whatever it is, it comesdown to behaviors.
Whether that's left to bang,during bang or after bang,
you're dealing with behaviors.
It's not a perfect science, butit's certainly there's
information out there where weknow a lot of science behind it
that's not being tapped into andwe know that in the schools,
the number one way you find outabout weapons plots and kids
that are going to cause harm tothemselves and others is from

(37:15):
when a kid comes forward, tellsan adult that they trust.
It's a relationship recognizingabnormalities in behavior and
what I say, not only you knowthe see something, say something
.
I have a third one and trainpeople to do something, because
if you're seeing it and sayingit.
Nobody knows what to do.
Your first two aren't doing youthat much good, because you've
got to know what to do.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
Brian famously brings that up every class that we
have this, you know, if you seesomething, say something.
But what am I looking for andwho do I tell?
And that's the problem is, wedon't put any emphasis
whatsoever on the human behavior, that predictive analysis, the
things like that.
We recently wrote about theparking lot.
Look, those are as good asthese multi-million dollar

(37:57):
programs, or better, andnobody's taking a look at them.
So you know, that's our fightevery day.

Speaker 3 (38:03):
Yeah, and we're in the same.
We're fighting the same fight.
Different battlefield is thatalthough I think the two could
come together is that you knowthe best the phrase I use, as
you know, when you do media.
You've got to talk in asoundbite because you only get
20 seconds.
Right, it's really the best.
Security and safety for kids isless visible and invisible, but

(38:26):
more impactful, right?
If you're focusing on behavior,I can't dangle a relationship
or a training or a behavior outin front of parents at a PTA
meeting or in front of a newscamera at a press conference and
say, see, we've got somethingnew, we dealt with it.
But I can do that with aweapons detection, more cameras,
fortified front entranceway.
But it's what's beyond thatfortified entranceway, that

(38:46):
people behind it that'll make itor break it.
I mean your bus driver, who'sthe first and last person to see
a kid during a school day,who's going to tell if
something's off there.
Your teachers, your secretariesin the office that are dealing
front office staff that aredealing with irate parents and
people coming in and problemsstrangers coming up to try to

(39:08):
get to the building.
Your custodial, your facilitiespersonnel.
Who knows the building betterthan the principal?
Your facilities, personnel,your custodial knows it.
And then, as we know and Italked with Joan a little bit
even longer about the researchjust get a little wonky once you
start getting into the academicworld.
So we like to talk more aboutit and and learn about it.

(39:29):
You know I had to laugh.
You know she said like, uh, youknow one, one foot in in
academia, one foot in practice.
We were talking about the youknow um, just the people like
gary dr, gary klein, who we'velooked to for a lot of things.
But if you can't put it inpractice, what good is it?
That's why I got an EDD applieddoctorate, because I want

(39:51):
something to.
You know, I looked at schooladministrators, strategic school
safety, leadership andcommunicating safety and highly
ambiguous at certain times.
So long thing, but how do youdeal with it?
How do you lead on it?
And then how do you communicateabout it?
And it still comes down topeople.
I mean you hit on aninteresting point.
You talk about defining itthere.
You know, by definition, fiveyears finishing through in a

(40:14):
doctoral program dissertation.
There is no standard definitionof what a safe school is.
There are many commonalities onthe agreements, on the things
that make up a safe school thecomponents.
But you can't just blurt out aline of say this is what a safe
school is.
As a matter of fact, we've gonethrough that on what's a mass

(40:35):
shooting right?
What's a school shooting?
There's debates on that.

Speaker 1 (40:39):
Yeah, oh, if it was on you know the, it was during
the football game on Fridaynight.
Does that count?
Like, yeah, you're getting intoall these areas and you know
you're tying it back to what Ithink it is.
Is you know what?
What can these administratorsand community members and
parents do?
Because I believe in startingat the local level.

(41:00):
I'm never going to changenational policy, but I can
affect my neighborhood, I canaffect my school district that
my kids go to, and that's thebiggest thing.
And what I talk to differentschool administrators about is
that typically what happens isthere's a school shooting or
something.
Everyone reaches out.
A lot of people will reach outand say is there something I can
do or I'm concerned about this?

(41:21):
So people are there.
We've had, we've worked withfolks who are trying to stand up
like, you know, parent led, youknow, almost like a
neighborhood kind of watch forthe school where they all
volunteer their time.
But then you get into just thepure bureaucracy of it about
what you can and can't do at aschool, just the pure
bureaucracy of it about what youcan and can't do at a school.
And now we got to do backgroundchecks on people because now
we're opening it up to peopleoutside who've been vet, who

(41:43):
haven't been vetted.
So it's like there's a lot ofdifferent, these barriers that
come in the way.
And so what can those schoolsdo to say you know what this is,
this is how we're going to dothings, or we want to do it this
way because I think their voiceis sort of more powerful in a
sense, because they know theircommunity better.
So it's like what are theysupposed to do?

(42:03):
I'm a dad, I'm a teacher, I'mwhatever.
What can I do right there in mydistrict?

Speaker 3 (42:08):
Well, we talk about that expertise that you develop
by being there every day andthat whole idea that I try to
get across to educators as muchas I do what I do.
You're the expert at yourschool.
You know what.
You know that patternrecognition and abnormalities
right Right up your alley.
Here, what you know starts, youknow right.

(42:28):
Kid getting on a bus what's youknow kids, something's off.
This is not the same kid I seeevery day in terms of behavior,
arrival and dismissal being out,greeting kids, observing,
calling kids by name, engagingwith them in the hallway.
The people piece of it isextremely important.
The challenge is the only thingschool administrators have less

(42:50):
of the money is timeno-transcript.

(43:24):
Year before or the year after,it wasn't eight.
It wasn't eight I've had eightcalls from attorneys on lawsuits
during that time period, butnot for training.
But he says how much time doyou need?
And I said and he'd seen mespeak when he was assistant
superintendent somewhere.
And I said well, truth is I, Ineed at least a day to lay
foundation and really get towhere to plant some seeds and

(43:46):
give something people go with.
And I said but I know you'renot going to give that to me and
I said so I'd like at least ahalf a day.
And in my mind I'm thinking Ireally hope to get two hours out
of this.
And he says I'll pay you forthe full day.
You've got 40 minutes and it'sa three-day leadership team

(44:06):
leadership retreat, rather, withbuilding administrators,
central office administrators,your board members.
So he's a good guy and wetalked for a while.
And it happened to talk.
I was sitting out in the schoolparking lot, my daughter was
attending a Sunday playperformance and I'm eating a
Philly cheesesteak waiting forher.

(44:27):
I'm talking with the super.
We had enough time on thatSunday to talk.
We went back and forth forabout an hour just talking about
the focus of things he gave mein that fight and he said all
right, I'll give you an hour anda half.
And when it was done they saidand I mean, you know how it is,
you make it work, right.
And when it was done, he saysyou know, it's the best thing
that we did.
He says you never would havemade it 40 minutes.

(45:05):
So the point is it's aleadership issue, it's not a
money issue.
If it comes from the board, itcomes from your building
principal, it becomes a priority, right.
So you have to make it aleadership issue, to say this is
a priority and to keep it up onthe agenda and and those who do
, those who get it, get it.
And and I think we're workingon it, but it's small wins.
Look, I was in a county schooldistrict in west virginia month
and the superintendent said Iknow it's a big ask, but can you
do six 50-minute back-to-backpresentation, 50-minute,
10-minute break, 50, 10-minutebreak, lunch, dinner, drink.

(45:26):
And I said yes, not realizingthat I'm not 40 anymore and my
legs may have had it, and I gota three-hour drive home.
I may have had a differentopinion on the situation but
knocked it out.
But the cool thing about it wasit was everybody from custodial
facility people, bus drivers,all the way up to assistant
superintendents, superintendentsand everybody in between.
They were rotating all theiremployees through a series of

(45:47):
six different back to schooltraining options.
So everybody got through andit's the most you know, it's the
most impactful thing you do.
You get people.
You do the best you can.
I knocked it out in 50 minutes.
You hit the core of things.
Tell them look, I know you'vegot to have your manual, but
let's talk about, you know,situational awareness stuff,
pattern recognition and then thebig one, cognitive

(46:12):
decision-making.
Under stress because educatorsare good at recognizing the
abnormalities and patterns.
Yes, we're struggling withgetting people to be fully
present and engaging andsupervised.
I had a superintendent tell meI need you to come in and do a
training.
I'm going.
What do you want me to hit?
What do you want out of this soI can see how to make sure I
blend it in in terms of focus.
He said I really need you totell three teachers that
standing in the corner of theplayground with 60 kids and them

(46:35):
looking at their phones,talking to each other, is not
active supervision, and they'renot fully aware of what's going
on around them.
So that piece needs work,pattern recognition and
abnormalities.
I think you know again, youknow the research and experience
.
They're good at it because theylive it every day.
They recognize what's normal.
They're the experts.
And then we get to thecognitive decision making under

(46:57):
stress and we're stuck again, sothat those two end pieces that
you know they're the ones thatare the struggle.
There I think we can nurtureand support the pattern piece
because they've got it there,they get it.
I mean, how many times I've hadpeople oh, there's a stranger
in the hallway.
I knew something was up, orthat car didn't belong to pick
up an arrival.
Hey, there's something, thatcar in the back parking lot.
They lean.

(47:19):
They can always get betterthrough training, but they lean
better in that direction.
It's those other pieces thatwe're working on and none of
those things have to do with the85-page emergency plan.
Yeah, you're exactly right.

Speaker 2 (47:32):
It's a human-to human breakdown and failure that has
been around since Plato andthat's why they used to sit on
the steps and look face to faceand solve these problems.
And the thing is, it's okay tohave an advocate in Congress,
it's okay to have somebody writea law, but that doesn't mean
it's enforceable.
That doesn't mean it's the mostprudent decision when education

(47:55):
and training are available allaround you.
And I like Brian as well, Ilike starting at the grassroots
level and I start like regionaltraining level and I think
everybody needs to be included,not just a supervisor or
superintendent.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
Oh yeah, he's still there.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
You got it, am I?

Speaker 1 (48:10):
back.
Yeah, you're good, I can, I canhear you.
Can you still hear us, ken?

Speaker 3 (48:15):
Yeah, sorry about that, hey if it's any better, it
happens with CNN and Fox.

Speaker 1 (48:25):
Yeah, I know I gotcha so had a little.
Yeah, all good, I'll, I'll editthat out.
But we we had some some audioissues there folks, and then
Greg has a hard stop, but he, hehad to, he had to kind of jump
off.
But you know, the kind of oneof the thing I wanted to ask you

(48:45):
about was sort of this legalprecedent that's been set with
parents being held criminallynegligent for the school
shootings that were conducted bytheir kids.
So it already happened with afather in Georgia, the most
recent one.
And then we know Ethan Crumblyand his parents in Oxford High
School in Michigan.
So I kind of wanted to get yourthoughts on that, because that
obviously opens a whole legaldoor, and what you think in
general when it comes tonegligence, on who's responsible

(49:06):
, because a lot of people arejust to say, well, it's, the
school is responsible for thesafety of the children, but
they're also not given, like wetalked about, a lot of the
resources or things to deal withthese situations.
So I just kind of want to getyour thoughts on that.

Speaker 3 (49:18):
Yeah, well, I've seen this creep creeping up and it's
intensifying and it's reallyhit a head here in the last.
This incident, and certainlywith Uvalde and other things
that have happened that haven'tcaptured the extent of national
attention, is like people aredesperate for and look, people

(49:39):
are desperate and fed up.
People are desperate and fed up,they're searching for
accountability, they'redemanding accountability,
they're looking for somebody toblame and in some cases there
are legitimate places to blame,depending on the facts of each
case, and we've seen that withthe uptick in civil litigation

(50:00):
and on school safety in general.
As I say, I often get morecalls in a month from attorneys
than I do from superintendentsLawsuits versus proactive stuff
Anecdotally, I think there's acorrelation there.
If you're not doing thetraining and you're not doing
the proactive stuff, anecdotallyI would think that you're
probably higher risk or havingsome liability.

(50:21):
But so we've seen the uptick inthe school security litigation
piece of it, and not justshootings, but rape, other
sexual assaults, gang violence,aggravated assault, so all kinds
of other cases in addition tothe shootings.
It's not just limited to that.
So that's the call and thepoint to the schools.

(50:43):
And now and that still hasn'tsolved it right People are
looking for it to solve to endto drop, and it's a wicked
problem.
We know from research andliterature on wicked problems
there are no five things youcould do and just stop and solve
it.
And if you do one thing on oneside to address one piece, it
affects the other end.
So you have all these tentaclesof the problem.

(51:04):
So now the move is okay, holdparents accountable.
And hey, I am totallysupportive of parental
accountability.
I think there's some huge gapsthere in terms of why we see the
things that we're seeing.
The focus on the home, theparenting, the family structure,
the family function ordysfunction all are elements.

(51:26):
But the parents now let's bringthem into play, and typically
it's around access to thefirearms.
So that's the peg, the hole toget them in.
But then and I'm not saying weshouldn't have schools held
accountable, I'm not saying weshouldn't have parents held
accountable.
What I am saying is, when wecontinue to see school shootings

(51:47):
, in spite of those two things,we're still going to be grasping
for accountability.
Right, the reality is we workand I've worked 40 years and
you've worked in your field.
Everybody's working for riskelimination.
The reality is what we canachieve at best is risk
reduction and we try to tightenthat hole.

(52:08):
And the good news is let'sshine a little light here is the
good thing is schools are muchbetter at threat assessment and
preventing and security thanthey were 10, 20, 30 years ago.
The bad news is we're dealingwith human behavior.
Here we go again right Behavior.
And when you're dealing withhuman behavior, you're going to

(52:29):
slip through the cracks, whetherthat's alleged failures in
human factors, or whether that'snot recognizing the warning
signs, whether that's notresponding to what expectations
and appropriately when anincident occurs.
It still comes back to humanbehavior.
We can't solve a behaviorproblem with a technology

(52:53):
solution.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
Yeah, I think that's a good way to look at it.
And, um, you know the again, um, you're never gonna.
You can't, you can't preventeverything, right, you can't
have a completely secure well,I'm not in living.
You can't.
You can't have a completelysecure world and live in a free
society at the same time.
So so you, you, you, but youdon't.
You know, my thing is like youdon't need to, meaning you can.

(53:20):
You can greatly reduce some ofthese issues and some of the
things that you see by gettingpeople more involved and
focusing on some of the thingsthat matter and how you can
control things within your owncommunity.
What are the foundationalelements?
What is this?
What are we building this on?
What is, what is the overallthing we're trying to achieve?

(53:40):
Because there there are a lotof different solutions for that
or different ways that are goingto work, depending on the type
of school, in the environment.
I mean, it's just like any typeof any other type of threat.
It's going to be differenteverywhere you go and in trying
to over legislate, somethingkind of ends up putting people
in a box.
Now they're forced to dosomething.
Now it's like, well, I don'treally have control, I have to

(54:02):
do this and now we're relying onthese technological solutions
and you brought up all thedifferent drawbacks to that and
it's just where we're creating amassive industry and process
and system without addressingthose key factors.

Speaker 3 (54:17):
Well, schools aren't factories, they're not city hall
.
They're not federal officebuildings, they're not military
installations, they're not yourmajor corporation and plant and
factory.
They are community centers.
And they're community centersnot only for kids who come in
and represent a microcosm of thebroader community and the good,

(54:41):
the bad and the challenges thatcome with that, but they're
also community centers afterschool evenings.
I mean, they're the heart ofmany small communities, many
mid-sized communities, many bigcommunities where that's the
heart of activities for afterschool performing arts,
athletics, community use ofschools, recreation centers,

(55:02):
senior meetings, whatever it is.
You talk to a school custodianand I say you have an alarm
system on your.
What time do you typically turnit off?
They say Sunday night for fourhours because the building's
open and you've got cleaningpeople in.

Speaker 1 (55:16):
He said the buildings's open and you've got
cleaning people in.

Speaker 3 (55:18):
He said the buildings are open 10 o'clock at night
six to seven days a week.
In a high school, on averagethat's what we hear 10 o'clock
at night, so somebody is usingthat beyond the academic day.
So it's not a sterileenvironment.
It's not a TSA in the airportand you have to look at that
context, the purpose, thefunction, what fits reasonable
technology support.

(55:38):
But it's a supplement to, butnot a substitute for, the human
factors.
Again, um and until we, youknow, we button that up and and
and recognize that and have andsay what.
Parents want to know two things, or should want to know two
things.
Parents want to know two things.
Number one what'd you have inplace to reduce the risks?
And number two, how wellprepared are you to manage

(56:00):
something you can't prevent?

Speaker 1 (56:02):
Yeah, and that's a that's a great starting point
too, and engaging those peoplein the community as well to to
get on board with this.
And I always tell people and nomatter where I'm at, whether
we're working with a privatecompany, law enforcement,
schools it's like look, you havea lot more saying this than you
, than you're recognizing Likeyou you are.
If you're in charge here, thenbe in charge and say this is

(56:23):
what we're going to do.
And there's obviously a lot offear with that because people
don't want to think, think youknow, they don't want to make
the wrong decision.
It's like, okay, but you know,making a decision and
articulating why you did it andsaying these are our policies.
You have, you have one, youhave a legal leg to stand on if
it fits in line with what, whatare common accepted practices,
and you can.
You can make it, you know, uh,local to your community.

(56:47):
You can.
You can modify what you need to, given the resources and and
tools that you have.

Speaker 3 (56:50):
So um, that's why they say there's saying if
you've seen one school, ifyou've done assessment on one
school, you've seen one school,you one school, if you've done
assessment on one school, you'veseen one school, you've seen
one school.
And it's kind of like that,with one school shootings you've
seen one school shooting,you've seen one.
Because the fact patterns aredifferent.
But it comes down with bottomline is when security works,
it's because of people, when itfails, it's because of people,
and people it equates tobehaviors yep, well, I I

(57:15):
obviously completely agree,agree with that, because that's
our, our whole approach.

Speaker 1 (57:19):
But, um, I'm going to have a bunch of bunch of links
in the episode details.
So people can, you know, get intouch with you and go to your
website and everything.
But, um, you know, what's thebest way for folks that that
want to reach out and get aholdof you or have you at their
school or find out more, what'sthe best way to do that?

Speaker 3 (57:37):
have you at their school or find out more.
What's the best way to do that?
Yeah, easiest way to reach outto the website schoolsecurityorg
and kennett schoolsecurityorgto get back to everybody.
Also on linkedin I do a lot ofposts doing a lot more in-depth
as far as the social platformson linkedin.

Speaker 1 (57:49):
You can find me there , connect, try to put some more
detailed things to stimulatethoughts and fuel that almost
daily yeah, and I'll put thatlink in the details as well,
because that's where we kind offirst came across you a while
back and I've been followingyour, what you're posting,
because I think it's great.
There's a ton of information inthere and even just a way to
look at some of these things.
You're giving some really goodthinking points for parents,

(58:12):
administrators, anyone in theindustry to think about and and
getting in.
You're backing it up with dataand what we actually know, not
what the news story is out thereor what someone's story of
being involved with that withtheir children, which is
heartbreaking, but at the sametime, like I get it, but that
might you know that that mightnot be the right thing to do in
this, in this situation.

Speaker 3 (58:32):
Critical thinking, absolutely Critical thinking.
Can Critical thinking?

Speaker 1 (58:36):
Absolutely Critical thinking, can't say it enough.
We got to learn how to do that,though, so that's obviously
where we come into play and whatwe love doing.

Speaker 3 (58:44):
But I really we're singing it from the same sheet
of music.
I enjoy talking with you guys.

Speaker 1 (58:47):
Absolutely, ken.
I really appreciate it,appreciate your time.
We'll follow up with you andkeep the conversation going.
We kind of actually wanted tohave a follow-on discussion with
Joan Johnson too on the podcast.
We've had her on a while backto get into some of this with
the decision-making and her areaof expertise, because she's
brilliant, and hopefully haveher on as well.

Speaker 3 (59:06):
She is.
We spent about an hour and ahalf for what we thought would
be a very short conversation andrealized we need more.
So we're continuing thatconversation.
So I think we're all in thesinging from the same sheet of
music and we just need to builda bigger choir.

Speaker 1 (59:21):
Yep, well, that's great.
Well, thanks so much for forcoming on, ken, I know you're a
busy guy and and the schedule isjust a suggestion.
So, as you, as you, you told us, which I agree with, so we
thank you, thank you for yourtime and keep up the work and
we'll, we'll be.