The Parking Lot

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone and welcome to the Human Behavior
Podcast.
In today's episode, we'retaking you to a place you visit
every single day the parking lotand showing how that simple
strip of asphalt can become alive classroom for human
behavior pattern recognition andanalysis.
For the longtime listenerswho've heard us talk about
parking lots before, thisepisode is going to be different
.
Today, we are using the 2023Covenant School Shooting Report

(00:22):
as our case study to break downhow one lone car, parked far
from the building and occupiedfor more than an hour,
broadcasted danger long before asingle shot was fired.
Now, this isn't a true crimerecap.
It's a how-to session how toread baselines and spot the
incongruent signals, how toseparate intent from
after-the-fact motives, and howa moment of informed curiosity
can shut down a tragedy beforeit starts.

(00:44):
So grab your notepads, buckleup and think about the last
parking lot you pulled into, ormaybe the one you're driving
past right now.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
We hope you enjoyed the episode.
Don't forget to check out ourPatreon channel for additional
content and subscriber-onlyepisodes.
If you enjoy the podcast,please consider leaving us a
review and, more importantly,sharing it with a friend.
Thank you for your time andremember, training changes

(01:04):
behavior.
All right, greg, we're gonna goahead and jump in.
This morning We've got a topicthat we've kind of discussed
before and we talked about a lotin class and uses analogy, and
that's the parking lot, and someof you will will kind of know
where we're going with this, butyou know it's, it's a parking
lot, is a great, you know, it'sjust, it's a great analogy for
human behavior in general.

(01:24):
There's a lot of specifics, wecan get into it, but it's a.
It's a great way to understandhow humans operate in terms of
setting patterns and how to lookfor incongruent signals and how
to find things out of place andhow to attribute value and
understanding.
So the parking lot can be usedas a sense-making exercise, can
be used to explain humanbehavior.
Right, it's a.

(01:44):
It's a what we would call atransition area.
You're going to a store, right,you have to park in the parking
lot.
Anyone is welcome there.
There's only certain ways inand out.
There's a specific flow thatit's designed to use.
So there, there's just so manydifferent things that we can
talk about within a parking lot,and it's a great one to watch
and observe and understand humanbehavior and to put terms to

(02:06):
different things, about whypeople set certain patterns, and
some of them are created by theperson who built the parking
lot, and then some becomecreated by use over time, of
people maybe taking a shortcut,and so it changes the
environment and the environmentinfluences people.
So it's just a general onewe're going to get into, and
there's different exercises andthings that we talk about people

(02:28):
doing, like you know, typicalhuman behavior.
I want to pull up to the grocerystore and I want to park as
close to the store as I possiblycan.
If I could park in the aisle, Iwould, because I'm that lazy,
and then I could just reach outand grab my produce and drive
out.
Right, and that's whydrive-thrus are there.
But the idea is that that's ageneral way to look at it.
Now people are going to say,well, I don't park there because

(02:50):
this, and I don't say it's likeokay, yeah, right, you're right
.
Someone will say, well, I parkfarther away because I don't
want my door getting dinged upby someone, and I go yeah,
because you're demonstratingintent, meaning you made a
conscious choice, a deliberatechoice, to not park closer for a
specific reason.

(03:10):
Now, in your case, it's that hey, I don't want my car to get
dinged up, or I got a nice car,or I've seen it out here where
you were like.
You'll see, like the person Isaw a Ferrari taking up like two
parking spots.
It parked on an angle and inthat case I was kind of like all
right, you know, if I had aFerrari, if I had a $250,000 car
, you know, I'd probably take uptwo parking spaces and if

(03:32):
someone had a problem with itI'd just probably throw them a
hundred dollar bill or somethinglike that.
I don't know, it's when it'slike I'm kind of like all right,
I would probably do that too,but anyway.
So there's things like that.
And then there's maybe theowner of the store or

(03:53):
establishment said to hisemployees hey, you park in the
back of the lot, the spots upclose are for customers.
Or you might go in there andsay I'm on my lunch break, I
want to go sit away fromeveryone, I want to listen to
some music and eat a freakingsandwich.
But the point is that'sincongruent.
All of those things areincongruent with what's typical,
all right.
Now, that's important tounderstand.
Now, I'm not saying thatthere's something inherently
wrong with that or different.
It's just, it's different.

(04:14):
It's interesting.
You may say your doctor mayhave told you hey, one way to
get more steps in and morephysical activity is, when
you're out doing your dailystuff, go, park away from where
you're going.
So you, you get a few steps in,okay, but that's all.
Goal oriented behavior thatmeans you're, you have a
demonstration of your intent todo something, all right.
Now I don't know what thatthing is, but it's different

(04:35):
than everyone else in theparking lot.
It's incongruent, all right.
So that's, that's a quickexplanation.
We're going to get into allthat.
But this is the why we'rediscussing parking lots again,
and the why is because I'm goingto just read it to you here,
and what I'm reading from iscalled an incident summary,
right, an investigative casesummary put together by the

(04:57):
Metro Nashville PoliceDepartment Criminal
Investigations Division, theirhomicide unit, and this was
after the Covenant PresbyterianChurch and School that was
attacked on March of 2023.
So this report just came out atthe end of March here in 2025.
And there's right off the bat.
If any of those folks whofollow us or have seen this

(05:18):
report, you're going to knowexactly where I'm going with
this, because I'll just read acouple paragraphs from it, but
at approximately 8 am on March27, 2023, aubrey Hale left her
residence on Brightwood Drive inNashville, tennessee.
When she exited her residence,she was carrying a large duffel
bag which contained severalfirearms, ammunition for those
firearms, tactical gear and herstuffed animals.

(05:38):
She also had with her abackpack containing two
notebooks and assorted items.
She loaded those bags into hervehicle, a 2014 Honda Fit
hatchback, right Smaller car,and left her residence.
She then drove to Royal RangeUSA in Nashville, arriving there
at 8.16 AM.
Upon arriving at this location,she drove to a far corner of

(05:58):
the parking lot, well away fromthe building and the entrance to
the lot, so away from thebuilding and away from the
entrance to the parking lot.
Once there, she donned hertactical vest, affixed magazine
pouches to her belt.
The vest was loaded withseveral spare magazines, an
automatic knife and otherequipment.
She then assembled and loadedthree different firearms.

(06:20):
She then remained in hervehicle in the parking lot of
the location for over an hourand finally left the location at
9.33 am.
She then drove directly to theCovenant Presbyterian Church and
School, arriving there at 9.53am.
Upon arriving at the school,she first drove through the
parking lot slowly beforeparking her vehicle in a parking

(06:42):
lot on the west side of abuilding.
Upon parking her vehicle, shewaited inside her vehicle for
several minutes.
During this time, hale sentgoodbye message to a friend
through Instagram Messenger.
At approximately 10.09, sheexited her vehicle, slung two
firearms around her neck andshoulders and approached one of
the west entrances to thebuilding, so not the main

(07:03):
entrance, the west entrance.
So the investigation reportcontinues on.
You can all read it right, I'llsend out the links and if
you're on our Patreon, I'll sendout the direct links and some
other information and photos.
In there and there's right inat the beginning of that report
is a stunning photo.
I posted it on our Instagramthe other day and it literally

(07:23):
shows the size of the parkinglot.
There's only one or two othervehicles right in the front.
So the perspective is from thebuilding looking out into the
parking lot, and it's just thisopen waters of a parking lot,
and then one vehicle parked allthe way, as far as you possibly
can, in the corner, not near theentrance.
So it's a very powerful image.

(07:44):
So that's the so what, thereason why we're talking about
the parking lots today, and Ipreface the information with a
little bit about it.
But, greg, I want to go to youto kind of kick this off.
I've been talking long enoughright here at the beginning, so
I'll let you get some words in.
But this is extremely powerful,extremely significant.

(08:04):
You sent me this report and Ididn't have time to go through
it, I just opened it up, readjust those two paragraphs.
I read and stopped and textedyou and literally said holy, you
know what?
Like wow, I didn't know thisyet because a lot of these facts
, of these cases don't come outfor a while.
You don't get all the detailsuntil an investigation comes out

(08:24):
, which is why we typicallydon't comment on things.
But it's so powerful to us.
So so let's kind of maybe startthere on why this is so
powerful, greg.

Speaker 2 (08:32):
So I would.
I would, I would say this Iwould say it's rare that I
disagree with Brian and evenmore rare when I disagree with
Brian in public.
Generally those conversationsnot an argument, never an
argument start when Brian saidyou've had enough to drink those
type of things.
But in this instance you saidtwo times something that I will

(08:54):
take umbrage with, and I'llexplain why.
You said at the very beginninghey, folks, when you listen to
us talk about parking lots,you'll know where we're going.
And then again when you saidhey, anybody that's familiar
with this case of Audrey Haleand the Covenant Presbyterian
Church School, you'll know wherewe're going and you know what.
I don't think that peoplesometimes do.
I think that sometimes it's easyfor them to conflate issues,

(09:19):
Brian, and the idea is that you,when you're speaking, you're
speaking strictly from a humanbehavior pattern recognition,
left and analysis, right way ofthinking, and it's so common
that you miss the fact thatsomebody sitting at home might
not know why we're deep.

Speaker 1 (09:36):
Right and no, no, no, let me just hit on that real
quick.
That's an excellent point.
And thank you for pointing thatout.
That's an excellent point.
And thank you for pointing thatout.
I was kind of speaking to youknow, the, the, the Cognorati,
the folks on our Patreon, thefolks who, who we we talked to
and we've trained with, andthose kinds of people.
So not to just a, yeah, ageneral audience, okay, so, yes,

(09:56):
I, I, I guess that's what Imeant by it, but, but good point
, because it was yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
Totally get it, but let's start more towards tabula
rasa.
So I want to give everybodythat's listening get out your
yellow pad.
I want to give you two things.
I want to give you the FBI.
Look at it very, very, verysimply.
This model is not a profileshooter.
Create a checklist of dangersigns pointing to the next
adolescent who will be in lethalviolence to a school.

(10:22):
Those things do not exist.
Okay, that was the first partof it.
And then issues facing theeducator is.
Predicting an individual who'snever acted out violently in the
past will do so in the futureis even more difficult.
And then I could go down alittle bit more.

Speaker 1 (10:36):
So real quick, Greg, can you say where that was from?

Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah, and we'll cite it on the thing.
The idea is that the FBI spentyears 25 years compiling a
report, and the report is themost important document that's
out there about school shooters.
It's the most comprehensive,it's had the most research, it's
defended all of its fight.
And then the last couple ofcomments I'll bring from it.

(11:04):
Motivation can never be knownwith complete certainty, but, to
the extent possible,understanding motivation is a
key element in evaluating athreat.
Then they go on and they sayokay, nonviolent people do not
snap or decide on the spur ofthe moment to meet a problem
with violence.
Instead, the path towardsviolence is an evolutionary one,
with many signposts along theway.
And then they saidmisinformation, here's the
common misinformation, and stopusing it.
School violence is an epidemic,all shooters are alike, school

(11:27):
shooters are always loners, andit goes on and on.
Okay, so, so why did I bring?

Speaker 1 (11:31):
that up.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
Here's my comparison.
I want you to have your yellowpad ready and I want you to
write these next couple ofthings down Rape, homicide,
robberies, kidnappings, theft,general theft and then auto
theft.
And then we could addcarjacking and numerous other
violent acts that are going on.
Everyone that I just saidoccurs in a parking lot.
We know they occur in a parkinglot and there's a higher

(11:53):
incidence of those situations ina parking lot than anywhere
else.
Okay, so if I knew that?
And then I just had the FBIreport queued up next to me and
I look at that, which baselinedo you think I'll have a better,
more robust comparison againstthe one for the parking lot and
turmoil, turbidity, incongruentsignals, reasonable suspicion or

(12:14):
the gosh damn report from thesmartest guys in the FBI?
So if the FBI is telling you,hey, there's not a lot there and
you can't really dig into it,what they're trying to tell you
is, the closer to bang you are,the more you're going to be able
to see, because even theirfour-point standard of threat
assessment is wrong sometimes.
But you know what's not wrong?
When you see somebody that hastwo bags that are so heavy that

(12:38):
they have to walk backwards andthey're wearing a vest.
That's probably not the UPS guy.
So what Brian and I do and whatHPPRNA does is it says what are
the simple things that I can seethat show me demonstrations of
intent.
And once I see a demonstrationof intent, I'm probably already

(12:58):
past the hey, that's interesting.
Phase and on to the assessinganomalous behavior phase,
meaning that I'm pre-attack.
Okay, pre-incident leads topre-attack.
What happens is most people aregoing well, those are
pre-attack behaviors.
You fucking don't know, sodon't use that terminology.
But I can tell you this interesthas to come before reasonable

(13:21):
suspicion, has to come beforeprobable cause.
So what did Brian just read us?
Brian read us early morninghours, and I don't mean dawn, I
mean early morning hours, wherepeople would normally pull into
a parking lot and do what typeof behavior?
I'm going to eat breakfast.
I'm going to change from mywork clothes to my school
clothes.
I'm going to to to pick upother people because we have a

(13:41):
carpool.
Brian, we could go down alitany of reasonable things that
a person's going to do yeah andlikely yeah.
We had none of that.
Likelihood was high on those.
We didn't have that.
Now we had stuff that was moreanalogous to perhaps a medical
emergency, okay, or somebodyfighting for their life that's
being raped inside of a car.
The car's parked off, it'sstill running, it's a hatchback.

(14:04):
Why is that important?

Speaker 1 (14:08):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (14:09):
They're making all kinds of important things in
this study that aren't.
Why is it important that thehatchback?
Hatchback is like a fishbowl alot of windows all around.
It wasn't a van.
It wasn't a van with curtains.
It wasn't the back of a step van, okay, where nobody could see
it, and the idea that why doessomebody choose a further route?
You touched on this, but thegeographics of a parking lot
always are tied to some sort oflogic.
I'm parking here because, anhour before I get off, the shade

(14:32):
from that tree will make my carcooler.
I'm parking here, like you said, because my boss said hey,
don't park by the entrance,that's for customers, for paying
people.
All it would have taken is oneperson that was curious, one
person that was interested ingoing.
Hey, I wonder what's happeningover there.
If you're not a cop and you'rea citizen or you're an owner of

(14:54):
a local company, just driving by, just using a pair of binos,
would have stopped this event inits tracks.
Brian, she already sent hermessages.
She already kissed everybodygoodbye.
She was going to carry on, nomatter what got in its tracks.
Brian, she already sent hermessages.
She already kissed everybodygoodbye.
She was going to carry on, nomatter what got in her way.
And where does the public think?
Great article, great story,great research done and a lot of
study by Nashville.

(15:16):
You got to give them a lot ofcredit, brian.
It's a great study, but wheredo you think they got the photos
and the videos that are in thatstudy?
Okay, so if you can film it,you could stop it.
And I'll say one last thing, andthen we'll go in a more
itemized list so we can followlogic, folks, I know you're all
over your yellow pad and puttingexclamation points, but that's
how I think, brian, when we look, who could say to us well,

(15:41):
you're not taken intoconsideration, blank, don't give
a shit To us.
Well, you're not taking intoconsideration, blank, don't give
a shit.
Because if it happens, it'sgoing to start in the parking
lot before it gets to your frontdoor.
It's going to happen somewhere.
And what you've created now andyou use the term that we use
all the time, a transition areaLook, you have to come out of

(16:01):
the woods and go across thegrass to get to the building and
you know what's mostly in yourway parking lot.
So so if we think of the lowestcommon denominator common
denominator, and we think of theleast intervention by you, a
public person, a citizen, or acopper or HR or whatever you do,
the parking lot's the place.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
Yeah, yeah, and so this is why why we start there
right, so we could I mean we, wecould.
We could set up chairs and awhiteboard and a classroom in a
parking lot and and never leavethat parking lot and be there
every day for a month teachingabout human behavior, and never

(16:40):
every day for the rest of ourlives.
You, you'd well, you, you don'thave to.
Everything is right there andthat's why I use this as an
analogy.
It's tough to you know, we'renot going to be able to touch on
everything in a podcast episode, but it's a great way to look
at the world, because in theworld, just like in a parking
lot, there are rules, right,there's norms, there's social

(17:02):
norms, there's directions,there's social norms, there's
directions, there's engineering.
Behind it, there's a purpose,there's an intent behind what
the parking lot's there for, whyit was designed a certain way,
and then humans then have tointeract with it.
So humans interact with it andthey generally follow certain
patterns.
So if the parking lot isconstructed in a optimal way,

(17:22):
right, they're going to go inand out the right way, they're
going to use the right direction.
But maybe sometimes the designis flawed or a traffic light
comes in later and it changesthe flow of something, and then
you'll see, like, maybe peopledon't know where to go, or
there's an odd stop sign rightwhen you pull in and it messes
it up, and you can see thatyou're like how this feels weird
or what.
Why is everything getting backedup here?
Because, because the designisn't optimal, right and then.

(17:46):
So what'll happen is thenpeople might go well, f this,
I'm not going all the waythrough the middle here, I'm
going to go around the outsidewhere I know it's easier to go,
and then that creates a pattern.
Then, once other people see itand they go, oh okay, I see it.
So now there's sort of likebecomes this, this new natural
or organic order to to thischaos in a parking lot versus
how it was designed?

(18:07):
You'll, you'll see stuff likethat at at like maybe large
events, sporting events, countyfair or something where they
kind of came in and had to dolike the ad hoc parking lot,
where it's a dirt lot, and thenthings start getting messed up
and then people start parkingeach other in Cause it's not
really defined Humans are justgoing to drop the people
directing the traffic at thoseevents go.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
Why aren't you seeing it the way I'm seeing it?

Speaker 1 (18:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
In your head.
They'd rehearse and have a planand everything else.
But you're coming in andeverything looks exactly the
same and now you're going leftinstead of right.
Let me give you before you goon, because you're onto
something here.
Let me give you a local one.
So you love Starbucks and we goto Starbucks before class often
.

Speaker 1 (18:43):
I get that green tea, that ice green tea, it's so
good.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
Shelly hates Starbucks because of the
politics and Shelly's angry allthe time and she won't go.
So now Gunnison has twoGunnison has a Starbucks in the
city market and Gunnison has aStarbucks in town, which is
ridiculous, a horrible standardfor such a small place.
And we go to Stephanie's placeon the outskirt of town because
it's a local small place.
And we go to Stephanie's placeon the outskirt of town because
it's a local.
But the other day, on a whim, Iwanted my pistachio.

(19:08):
So I go, I'm going to get thatcold brew with a pistachio hint.
It was amazing drink.
I'm giving them a shout out now.
And they didn't have it.
But when I went in the parkinglot with my normal size Toyota
pickup truck, I hit every curb,couldn't make the turn up to the
sign, almost took the sign offthis place is brand new.
It's a brand new Starbucks thatrecently opened and you know

(19:30):
what they built it for.
They built it for a place backEast East of the Mississippi
that's got small cars andelectric cars and all that other
stuff Even the place where youwait to have them bring it out
to you or run in to grab yourorder, brian, they were made for
mid to small size cars sonobody can navigate it.
And then they put these hugecurbs that are in it to guide

(19:51):
you and everybody that I saw.
We actually sat there for aminute and took a couple of
photos because everybody with apickup truck had a edge and back
up and come in and out.

Speaker 1 (20:00):
So what.

Speaker 2 (20:01):
So the familiarity with geographics means a ton
when you're a curious observer,because that alone can draw your
interest to somebody goingthrough.
Do they know?
Do they not know?
Are they parked there for toolong?

Speaker 1 (20:16):
Have they been here before, have they not?

Speaker 2 (20:19):
Right.
So what you're saying to meresonates deeply, because even
you common citizen not Cognaratithat's watching something can
determine oh, that guy's justusing that parking lot to beat
the light.
That person is using thatparking lot because they're lost
and they're just doing a flip.
That person's using thatparking lot because it's off the

(20:41):
beaten path and they're goingto make out or they're going to
drink.
You get what I'm saying.
Those are the things that we'llnever know unless we what?
Unless we investigate, unlesswe drive over and take a look or
walk over and take a peek.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
And what you just described.
These are sense-makingexercises that you can do that
get you better at understandinghuman behavior and how people
make decisions and understandingtheir intent, and those are all
pre-event indicators.
That's what allows you to seethese things and I had mentioned

(21:16):
it when I posted this on socialmedia.
It was like it would have takenone person to drive driving
through that parking lot to gohmm, that's odd.
Let me just go down that rowreal quick and drive past and
see audrey hale sitting therewith full kit on and three guns,
and you know, and you're going,that's one or or or sitting

(21:41):
there eating a sandwich, youknow, having a cigarette on on
their on their lunch break.
You know what I'm saying and so, and to go, okay, it's, it's,
it's.
It's that effing simple toprevent a school shooting and
and, like I, I don't thinkpeople understand that as a
whole, and then that's what Ithink you meant too.
I think that's what you, you,you're you're alluding to as

(22:03):
well when I said okay, you'llsee where I'm going with this.
It's like, exactly, peoplereally, really don't they and I
get the comments on there too,which is why I love we can talk
about that is you know, you getsome comments on social media
and be like, oh well, it couldjust be this.
It could, and it's like you'reright, it could be a person who
is in that part there, but thiswasn't, and you don't know that

(22:25):
until you go that.
So so you attribute value, youhave this observation, go oh,
it's just this.
Oh, it's just that.
Oh, it's just this.

Speaker 2 (22:32):
No, no, no, no.
Add to that.
Add to that.
Complacency is a danger, right,but we don't name what
complacency is.
Complacency is saying that I'mhomeostasis, everything's fine,
nothing's going to change.
So that's the third or fourthtime that you go and check and

(22:52):
it's just somebody doing adumpster drop off, or it's a
person waiting for their kidthat takes a different way back
from school and they're going topick them up, or it's a person
that thinks her wife is cheatingon them so they're sitting
there to get a better view ofthe motel.
Six across, okay.
So the third or fourth time thatyou've checked an incongruent
signal and it comes up to benothing, you get dumber.
So what's the fourth time?
The fourth time is ah, it'sprobably one of those first
three.
That's complacency.

(23:13):
So it's incumbent upon you andthis is for everybody listening
to us that you have to be theharbinger of the message.
You have to go over and take alook and, if you don't feel
comfortable, call the police.
A good copper would rather comea hundred times for nothing
than one time for what happenedat the Covenant Presbyterian
Church and School, and anybodywill back that up.

(23:34):
That's a good copper, brian.
And you're right.
You don't know, you don't know.
So the experiment is on thetable.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
You have to go take a look, and it's a public place
and because anyone is allowed togo to any parking lot anywhere,
right, I can no longerStarbucks change their policy,

(24:07):
so I can't go in and use thebathroom and sit in there for
half a day without buyinganything anymore.
That's the they, they, they,they change that all day.
But the idea but but yeah,that's where I'm calling from.
I'm, I'm actually in a, in inmy my car that I live in in in a
in a Starbucks parking lotright now.
It's just a fake backdrop, butbut no, but.
So there's like a certaindegree of of anonymity in a

(24:31):
parking lot, especially whenit's a.
You know, you go to the mom andpop restaurant off the beaten
path and the only people goingto that parking lot either are
going to eat there or going towork there, right.
But in something like this, inthis large parking lot where
you've got several stores andmaybe a bit one of the big box
stores like a home Depot or or atarget or something like that,

(24:51):
well, there's a, there's thatdegree of anonymity in there.
So now I'm in there, I I'mlikely to do things because I'm
like, well, I'm, I'm hidden inplain sight here.
No one can see me, I'm doingwhatever it is.
So, whether that's a meetup fora dope deal, whether that's,
you know, or a god, I've seensome horrible ones where it's a
child custody change, where theymeet in a parking lot to change

(25:13):
the kids and then that, youknow, erupts into a domestic
violence situation.
But you know that that's wherethese things happen, and they're
places you go to every singleday with your family or kids
sometimes, and you're you'rechecked the every single day
with your family or kidssometimes, and you're you're
checked the f out.
You're focused on what you'redoing and literally the school
shooter is prepping for anattack right down the aisle from

(25:34):
you, and it's not meant toscare you to talk about this.
It means it's all out there, so, so, like you said, the parking
lot, before I can go in and doanything, I have to drive there,
I have to, and I have to getout of my vehicle and then carry
out this attack.
So all that time I havebeforehand, all of those things
are just screaming out to peopleand those are the signals to

(25:56):
pay attention to.
And then you could even get intofrom this one the specifics of
well, you know someone's goingto go.
Well, why did she choose thatparking lot?
What was it significant?
It's like, okay, well, you knowsomeone's going to go.
Well, why did she choose thatparking lot?
What was it significant?
It's like, okay, well, maybeshe'd been there before, right,
maybe she knows that place,maybe she thought, oh, it's a
shooting range, so maybe I'mless likely to stick out here if
I have a bunch of guns.
So so there's thought put intoall of those things and and that

(26:27):
demonstrates her intentobviously for this tack, but
it's it's so.
It's so unbelievably powerfulthat, like, I mean, obviously
this is why we're talking aboutit.
But you don't typically sit inyour car for an hour in a
parking lot Like that, thatdoesn't happen.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
That's not typical behavior.

Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yeah, that's what I mean.
Well, without a reason outsideof the purpose of being in that
parking lot, the purpose of yougoing to a place and putting in
the parking lot is to go shop atthat establishment and then
leave and go home and carry onwith what you do Like you don't
linger People don't fuckinglinger around and do nothing.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
Let's talk about that for just a minute.
So there's a law on parkinglots and so if it's a private
parking lot which most parkinglots are they're private to that
business.
So, for example, Walmart theparking lot is owned by Walmart.
It's not owned by the city,it's owned by Walmart, and so
Walmart has certain things thatthey can do.
Like Walmart allows you tochange your oil in their parking

(27:19):
lot, they allow you to camp intheir parking lot.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
They allow you to camp there.

Speaker 2 (27:23):
Yeah, you know what I'm saying and so that's theirs.
And, for example, if you run astop sign in the Walmart parking
lot, they have them all overthe place, you know to ease you
getting in and out of the place.
A copper can't stop you for that.
As a matter of fact, copper canonly stop you in a parking lot
like that if you've committed afelony in their presence or, for
example, something as goofycompared to that felony in

(27:46):
progress as handicap.
They can enforce a handicap.
So those are importantstandards.
So somebody, even though it's apublic parking lot, owns it and
has to maintain it, and that'sthe person you sue if you slip
and fall.
Let me give you an example.
In Colorado, I'm interim chiefof police of a ski resort town
okay, waiting for the ranch toopen, all those other things.
So I have to go to town councilmeetings and they're horrible.

(28:08):
And I'm at a town councilmeeting.
The argument is that it's amillion dollars of parking spot
at this city, a million dollarsof parking spot.
So when they call the cops toticket somebody or tow somebody,
they mean it.
Because that business only gottwo parking spots, okay, and it
cost them $2 million to open inthat strip mall, brian, so you

(28:32):
understand that people do payattention to it.
You remember a couple of yearsago, folks, where Brian and I
were talking about how it didn'tlook like, it looked like an
inside job to us the robbery ofthe armored car and how the
armored car pulled in in frontof the armored car and how the
armored car pulled in in frontof the place because it's the
most convenient spot and theystart opening doors.
But there's a car in the snowbacked in, running with all the

(28:54):
windows cracked a bit and guysinside chain smoking.
For the love of God.
Okay, all we're saying is you,when I said earlier, pre-attack
behavior?
Pre-attack behavior is mesitting in a car loading a gun.
Okay, that's pre-attack.
That's probably the last thingyou're going to see, pre-event
behavior is actually whatBrian's talking about, and it's

(29:18):
a much lower standard and easierto achieve.
Why has that guy been sittingthere idling in that car for
that long?
And here you have Audrey Halethat is down and in.
She's on a mission.
She's got a plan in her head soshe's not attending to those
things that are immediatelyaround her, and that's your
bonus.
The bonus is that while thisperson is putting on a vest and

(29:39):
doing all these other things,even a casual observer is going
to say that's interesting.
And once you say that'sinteresting, you can foil
everything that comes after that.
You can be the pair of scissorsthat cuts that plan off right
there the fuse.
Remember the old round bombWile E Coyote?
Yeah, yeah, and there's the fuse, and how many times did you see
him stop it by just cutting it?
You know, and that could be you, and this is a perfect case.

(30:01):
You don't have to delve, brian.
How many pages did you honestlygo through before you saw,
before the light hit you, that,oh my gosh, it was all here.
It was probably the first pageI would say it was the first
paragraph.
Okay, there you go.
If that's so true, then why didwe see all day yesterday
everybody going t-shirt andstained glass window and why do

(30:24):
we always see?
What's the reliance on that?

Speaker 1 (30:26):
well, you.
So so what?
What happens?
Is we, we, we in general?
Right, it's just a generalstatement.
No, humans do not understandthese situations.
Because if you're sitting therereading through this, like
you're, you're, you're not,you've never thought about, and
if you're listening to thepodcast, hopefully, hopefully,
you know you never thought aboutI'm going to go shoot up at

(30:48):
school, I'm going to go kill abunch of people, I want to go do
this, or I'm angry about that,like so, because you've never
had that experience, you don'tknow what that's like, we're
naturally aren't going tounderstand it.
So then we try to.
We try to sort of makeourselves feel better.
I think a lot of this is isliterally just driven by the
fact that, because we don'tunderstand, and that's scary,

(31:08):
and I don't want to think aboutthis, or I don't want to think
that anyone could do this, orit's got to be a monster, so we
create a monster and then welook at all these things and say
, oh well, it's because of this,or oh, they did it because they
were bullied, or they're thisincel, or they had this issue or
that, and that's what we needto focus on.
It's like no, look man, like alot of people have those issues,

(31:29):
you know a lot of people have,you know, have a hard time
getting laid.
A lot of people have the likethe.
They don't go kill a bunch ofpeople for it.
You know what I mean.
So, so, so we, we, we try tolook at things like okay, well,
you know, she had her teddybears with her stuffed animals.
I don't know what, what exactlyit was, so he had stuffed
animals or wore a certain shirtor this.

(31:49):
It's like, yes, that wasimportant to them, but that's,
that's not.
That it doesn't have to do.
Understanding why they chose aspecific stuffed animal isn't
going to help you understand orsee or prevent the next attack.
Those things don't matterbecause they're so, they're so
personal to that person and youmay not know.

(32:10):
You.
I see so many people making shitup after the fact and I'm like
did you interview this person?
Were you part of theinvestigation?
Did you talk to them?
Did they tell you why that was?
You know?
Because it's like the, the,what was his name?
Berowitz?
Like oh, the, the neighbor's dogtold me to do that and which he
fucking made up and said lateron that he made up but it caught

(32:32):
on and everyone went, oh, he'scrazy, he's this, this fucking
bullshit, right, and it doesn't.
It doesn't like it and itdoesn't help me understand the
situation.
In fact, it makes it worse.
It makes it harder to see what,what the next is going to be,
because now I'm looking forpeople that you know are
listening to dogs, or I'mlooking for people that are

(32:52):
carrying around their stuffedanimals and it's like dude, like
that may mean absolutelynothing, and that person
themselves they don't.
They don't even fullyunderstand why they're doing
that.
Most of these people don't.
If you're, if you're thinkingabout and planning and going to
kill a bunch of kids, you're sofar off that you, anything that
you do, it's.
It's nonsense at that point,right it, it only means

(33:14):
something to you and it's atotally subjective.
I mean this is why we don't getinto the motive a lot with
these different things, becauseit doesn't fucking matter.
And there's going to be a newmotive next month and there's
going to be another one afterthat and then in a few years,
they're going to be calling thisfigure it out, and so so all of
that research and study intothis, or papers or books people
write about is fucking bullshitbecause it doesn't stand the

(33:34):
test of time and it doesn't helpme in any manner.
And so, but understanding howpeople behave, the decisions
that they make and the actionsthat they take are are the most
important part, because thattells you what the most
important part, because thattells you what they're likely
going to do.
That tells you about intent andunderstanding.
Ok, this person is sitting herebecause they're on a break from
work.
They've been fucking stressedand they don't want to be near

(33:56):
anyone and they want to sit bythemselves, they want to eat a
sandwich and they want to listento a podcast or listen to their
music or whatever.
Ok, that's typical behavior.
Ok, but but that's very, verydifferent than everything you
just described, that she wasdoing in her vehicle at the time
, and so those things, too, lookdifferently.
They feel differently.
Right?
You don't have to be sometrained expert to look at that

(34:18):
and go okay, I see what'shappening.
You just have to drive by andgo.
Hmm, that seems odd.
I may not know exactly why thisseems odd, but but here now,
what we're discussing is whyyou're thinking that this is why
that's an incongruent signal.
Okay, so, so.
So that's all you need to be at.
Once you can recognize those, itdoesn't matter what the point

(34:42):
is or where the attack was goingto happen, or or who the target
was or what the motive isbehind it, because you're never
going to know that shit, becausethat person doesn't even
fucking know that shit very well.
They're so confused and theyhave so much emotional and
cognitive turbidity that they'regoing through that they're just
grasping at things to tovalidate their feelings and to

(35:04):
to allow them to continue on andcarry out this attack right.
So you have to justify it toyourself.
They still have to like theyknow it's wrong what they're
doing, but they've gotten pastthat by.
For all of these other reasonswhether it was a chemical
imbalance, I was on pills,someone treated me wrong,
someone did this, I'm going toput all that and then I'm going
to write it down in a manifestoand then I'm gonna say, yeah,

(35:25):
and this guy had it right ahundred years ago and you know
the and it's.
And so we, we all find that shitinteresting, but it's, it's
basically fucking nonsense.
It's basically someone who is,is, cannot navigate the world in
a typical manner and it hassuch a difficult time doing this
.
And you know what?
Is it their fault?

(35:46):
No, they're not going to takeresponsibility for their actions
.
It's everyone else's fault.
So I'm going to go after themlike I'm not going to go after
myself, I'm not going to say I'mthe fucking problem.
Everyone else is.
But and this is what it I get,and you do too, but it's like I
get.
So it just drives me fuckingnuts when I see all this stuff
because it's people making stuffup and it's entertaining, yeah,

(36:10):
but because it makes yeahwell, it makes for a good movie,
it makes for a good book, itmakes for a good story.
But so the fuck does bigfoot so, does, so, does so, does the
chupacabra so does so?
Does aliens like it's just like, well, thanks.
But I'm not only do I not knowanything, I'm a little bit

(36:31):
dumber after experiencing thisand listening to that, like you
know my well, well, my thing,and I always, I always bash.
You know, everyone lovestalking about like, like ted
kaczynski, and like, yes, theguy was a mathematical fucking
genius.
Okay, and unless you're also amathematical fucking genius,
you're probably not going tounderstand the guy.

(36:52):
And he was all over the placewith what he wrote and said.
But look at what he did.
He took these steps, he rodehis bike into town.
Like I keep using these becauseit's like, don't go off of what
people say.
People fucking say anything,people say shit all the damn
time.
I think I've sworn more on thispodcast than I have on any
other because it's like it wasso powerful when you just look

(37:16):
at someone's behavior and whatthey're doing compared to a
contextual baseline.
And literally, greg, like you,just, but your simple
description of going to thestarbucks near you, in in your,
in your toyota truck andnavigating that.
Okay, everyone has had thatexperience, everyone listening

(37:38):
has had that experience, whether, whether it was at starbucks or
whether it was wherever.
But but you go, oh well, itseems odd, or this doesn't fit,
or this like so.
So the, the, those are thingsthat you can do every single day
to go, hmm, ooh, a piece ofcandy, or hmm, that looks weird,
or that's interesting, or hey.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
So let's let the F-bomb parade drop.
Sorry no no, you shouldn't besorry because Brian's has worked
up, as I am, but I've had 24hours to digest it and calm down
, because that's exactly thetype of tirade when I was on the
phone with Brian.
Can you believe this shit?

Speaker 1 (38:13):
Yeah, you're doing the Gilbert Godfrey.

Speaker 2 (38:16):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, god darn it.
So let's do a rectangularhorizontal, the yellow pad
reasonability study.
Okay, grab your pens, folks, ifyou drive, and pull over for a
minute, or be the pastor, okay.
So what I want you to do is Iwant you to take a look on the
left-hand side and just putthree or four of the actions
that we saw Audrey Hale doing.

(38:37):
Then, on the right-hand side, Iwant you to put things that
happen every day.
People get bad news.
Every day, people get firedfrom jobs.
Every day, people getover-emotional because somebody
notified them that a recent meetor an old friend or a family
member has died.
A person just figured out thattheir truck is malfunctioning

(38:58):
and they've already called theauto club and this was the
closest parking lot.
So here you've got all thereasonable answers on one side
of it.
You got Audrey Hale'sdemonstrations of intent on the
other side.
So what would thedemonstrations of intent be like
if you recently got fired fromyour job?
So now we're on the right-handside.
Well, if you recently got firedfrom your job and you're
slipping on a vest and you'reloading a gun, houston, we have

(39:19):
a problem Now.
So in your reasonability box Iwant you to put.
Is it reasonable to assume thateverybody that's ever gotten
fired from a job has done that?
No, as a matter of fact, it'sso rare that there's TV movies
or books that are written aboutthem and that makes number one
news.
Okay, I'll buy that.
Well, what about incel?
Brian and I are celibate andnot together.

(39:40):
We're not on the road, but sobeing incels, come on.
they're still listening Together.
We're not on the road, but so,being incels, come on they're
still listening.
But being incels all right, Iwant you to think about that.
A lot of us didn't get laid inhigh school a lot of us, okay
and what we did is we did anIsla Vista and we went out and
we amassed guns and we killedour roommate and rammed people
and shot them until we shotourselves.
Well, no, as a matter of fact,that's so gosh, damn rare that I

(40:02):
can only think of two instancesin my lifetime where I can
directly relate the incel to thecrime.
Okay, so what happens, brian,is we're getting Audrey and her
activities and her demonstrationof intent are standing alone,
and all these other ones aregoing nowhere.
They're all going nowhere.
It's the family waiting forthat kid to get off school going

(40:26):
nowhere.
It's the family waiting forthat kid to get off school.
It's the person that got firedthat's just trying to take an
emotional break before they gethome to tell their significant
other.
It's all those things, and theycan be packed with information
and turbidity and emotion, butthey don't lead to somebody.
The next place they're going,they're going to get out of
their vehicle with a bunch ofguns and kill people.
So the idea is that every storyis in play all the time.

(40:47):
And so that person that'sparked up on the curb just in
front of the ATM isn't going torob the store and take the ATM.
They're waiting for awheelchair person in the city
market.
But you don't know unless youcheck.
You do sustained observation,you take a look, you call the
store, you call the cops, yousay this is interesting.
You know why?

(41:07):
Because there's not 70 carsparked out on the curb in front
of the ATM.
Most people follow rules.
Most people got into thesituation at that Starbucks that
I was in because they thoughtwell, no problem, there's the
drive-in window right over there.
And then, after doing the Jengato try to get the truck in,
they go.
I'm never coming back and youmight never know.

(41:29):
You might work at thatStarbucks and go.
Why is it that this plan didn'twork in Gunnison?
And somebody's going to saywell, it's because Westerners
don't drink caffeinated beverage.
No, you see how we conflatethings.
So that's the people.
When you put stuff on socialmedia and people snipe you, it's
that person.
It's the classic obstructionistthat looks and goes.

(41:50):
Well, there's probably myriadreasons.
Well, there's myriad reasons.
You know what.
You know what.
There's myriad reasons, but notwhen it comes down to your
choice to go kill people,because then there's only a few
choices, and those choices areI've got to do it with a bomb, a
gun or a knife.
I got to go to them or bringthem to me.
Do you see what I'm trying tosay?
The calculus gets a lot easierwhen that person is out there

(42:13):
with bad intent on their mind,and so what's the common fabric
that we can get to the parkinglot?
I may never stop them on theroad, brian.
Their driving may be perfect, Imay never get the inclination
that there's something wrongwith that car, but in the
parking lot, the preparatorybehavior that I'm seeing is
incongruent, and incongruencealone should be an interest

(42:35):
motivator, and it should be thevery thing at the big end of the
funnel that gets me excited.

Speaker 1 (42:41):
Well, and this case gets gets even more ridiculous
in terms of the discussionsabout it because of all these
fucking social issues that thatI don't care about and that
people shouldn't and aren'tgoing to fucking matter anymore.
No-transcript.

(43:30):
This, this wasn't written bythis is exactly, yeah, but but I
I I obviously, of course,attributed this.
Hey, this is where this camefrom, and so people know the
facts of the case.
Like this is this has gonethrough an investigation of what
they found.
Well, but here's the thing itsaid.
It should be noted that in life, the offender, audrey hale,
gender identified as a male andused he him as preferred

(43:51):
pronouns.
Under tennessee law, a person'sgender identity must correspond
with their biological sex orwith information present on
their certificate of life birth.
As hale was a biological femaleat the time of her death and
throughout the incidentsdescribed in the summary and in
the case file, hale will bereferred to as a female, and so
it's like that's a clinicalapproach of how you do these

(44:11):
things.
But but the mere fact that thathad to be in there to me is
like what, the what?
Those things don't fuckingmatter.
Now I could say it'sinteresting to me because
typically you don't see thishappening with females.
Like females do this less thanmales.
Like females carry out theseattacks at a much lower rate

(44:32):
than males do.
So that's interesting, but butwhether you know it was a guy or
a girl who did it, all of thesesteps would have been the same.
So so it's like you're sittinghere looking at something that,
well, ok, let's say it was a guyor a girl or this, well, what?
That doesn't change anythingelse that happened.
So why is that relevantinformation?

(44:53):
Even what does that matter?
Because, again, everyone wantsto point the finger at something
and say, oh well, this mentalhealth issue and it was caused
by this, and society is lettingpeople do that and we're going
to see more.
It's like you can't fight, youdon't fucking know that this is
the topic of du jour over thelast couple years, and you know
what?
In 10 years it's going to besomething else.
So you're, what are you goingto do?

(45:13):
You're going to put all thistime and effort in something
that's going to be a new problema few years from now.
Like those things are, are soirrelevant to to prevention, to
understanding, to sense making,to the recognition of how these
things work, and so to me, it'sjust like you're, you're, you're
, you're using this as someplatform for some other purpose,

(45:34):
all right.
And then now it gets clouded,now it gets buried down into
some whatever political issue orsocial issue other than what it
should be as a criminal,fucking act that could have been
prevented like that.
That's the whole point.
This is a horrific criminal actthat could have prevented.
But we want to look at the, the, the car and the, the type of
weapon and and and what thatperson's political leanings were

(45:58):
, and it's like dude what theit's so.

Speaker 2 (46:01):
Let's do an example of that.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
Yeah, sorry.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
No, no, no.
So weaponizing information isalways wrong, because if I go to
the staunch Republican, they'regoing to say this is the kind
of mixed up kid that happenswhen they don't know their
gender identity.
When we go to the Democrats,they killed because you picked
on her because of her genderidentity.
Neither of those matter tobeing able to see and predict

(46:27):
likelihood based ondemonstrations of intent, so let
me give you one that almostnever matters.

Speaker 1 (46:33):
Yeah, and that was.
That was a much better way ofputting into it.
No, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 2 (46:37):
And, trust me, I understand, because we both have
emotional attachments to thesetypes of events and we're so
immersed in them that it's hardto come up for air sometime
because it seems like that we'regetting jabbed all the time and
then all of a sudden you get apunch like this and it's just.
The memory of this event isjust like it happened yesterday,
and Brian and I compared thisto other events in class, not to

(46:59):
highlight this event, but todemonstrate that intent is much
more important than motive.
So there's a person that was inthe news very recently and
they're saying take a look atthe shirt this person's wearing.
Do you know the origin of thatshirt?
Well, sometimes people do knowthe origin of the shirt they're
wearing and sometimes it'sreally important to the message

(47:20):
that they're trying to deliver.
But sometimes a shirt's aneffing shirt.
Do your research?
Take a look at the psychologyand sociology of messaging.
So, for example, saw Brian gettorqued out of his mind because
a kid was wearing a Che Guevarashirt.
And so Brian stops and goes.
You understand what that shirtmeans?
Do you even know who that is?
And the person's like no, it'sjust a shirt.

(47:41):
Brian goes well, let me educateyou on something and Brian goes
down the rabbit hole and tellsthe person who Che was, what
kind of person they were andeverything else.
And do you understand that justby wearing that shirt you're
kind of promoting that type ofbehavior?
And the person was like in acollegiate setting and saying,
wow, I never, I never knew that.
The most important part of thatconversation, all of it was
important, but the mostimportant part was the person

(48:03):
had no idea.
The other thing is sometimespeople wear things to be
provocative or evocative.
I never wear message clothing.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
I have right.

Speaker 2 (48:13):
It's a choice that I make, because I and it's nothing
with the gray man horse crapit's that I don't want to give
somebody piece to latch onto togive them an angle or an
opportunity.
Yet I use your wearing underarmor or things like that, like
tattoos.
I can use your tattoos to starta conversation, but I'm not

(48:33):
going to look at your infideltattoo and decide that you hate
Muslims.
You see.
So, a guy wearing a provocativeshirt.
That comes back to here I'mgoing to be provocative to
killing Jews or to mass murderor to pull pot or to abortion or
any of those other things.
Maybe they're just trying toget your goat.
So if I spend too much time onthat speed bump, on that point

(48:57):
of turbulence, I'm going to missall the other things, because
the shirt itself doesn't alwaysmean it's a demonstration of
intent.
The shirt itself doesn't alwaysmean it's a demonstration of
intent.
As a matter of fact, it's sorare that I remember only a
couple of times where it wouldhave been a good warning.
Okay, and and so when, whensomebody makes a list and then
they write that thing on theirshirt with a marker and it's not

(49:20):
a mass produced shirt that issold to a lot of people and they
decide to walk in, okay, maybethat's a pre-event indication,
brian, but most times it's notso saying something like that
person shot at that or thatperson defaced this, before they
go on like, like you know, thisthing with tesla and and with
the with the cars and I don'tknow.

Speaker 1 (49:39):
It's a perfect example.

Speaker 2 (49:41):
Yeah, but but the example is that most of the
people that are doing that arejust angry and and they need to
lash out at something, and thathappens to be the du jour, that
happens to be the soup of theday, brian, and and so, if you
really got down into it, do theyreally understand the inner
workings of this man's mind?

Speaker 1 (49:57):
no, and that, that's that that's well, it doesn't, it
doesn't.
That's.
That's a perfect example.
Because it was, you know, a fewyears ago.
It was like oh, you drive aTesla, you're, you know, think
you're some liberals saving theearth, you know, blah, blah,
blah this thing.
And then now it's like oh, youdrive a Tesla, you're a Nazi,

(50:20):
and you're like what?
Like so, so, so both.
But to me, I'm like those peoplethat think that way.
They're the same people,they're assholes, they're morons
, they're like we need to stop.
We need to stop giving themtheir time, their moment, and we
need to stop amplifying thosemessages, because it's just
stupid, it's, it's, it's, I mean, it's like the dumbest way to

(50:43):
look at something.
But to that point, we all dothat to some degree.
We attribute value to somethingin a God, in just such an
arbitrary way, without knowingit.
And tattoos are a great one,right?
We've had people say, oh well,that tattoo means this, it could

(51:05):
mean that it's like well, didyou ask that person who got the
tattoo?
Because they might have justthought it looked cool, they
might have just thought it wasthis.
And so it's very, very hard todetermine on one thing, and we
get focused in on those thingsbecause they're interesting or
they're novel and it's like no,just stick with the actual
things that the person did andyou can go back through a

(51:27):
timeline and say, oh, wow, I seewhere they were, where they
were, where they were going withthis and and I mean it.
Just well, that's the thing is?
It reminded me one time I Idon't know why it spurred this
memory but my buddy, the gym hehad I used to work out at you
know, I look out the frontwindow sometime this guy was
like across the street but therewas a.

(51:48):
There was a little like a boysand girls club there, so they
drop kids off, you know, afterschool or or during the summer,
like they have little summercamps and stuff.
So it was like one.
A lot of parents driving in andout of there, which was
complete chaos and they're theworst drivers in the face of the
earth.
Then then there was also, youknow, it's just like there's
activity going on out there andthere's like a, you know, an
atmosphere to it.
Especially during the summer,the kids are outside in the

(52:10):
little fenced in area playingand stuff like that.
You can hear it.
And then you know, I just seethis, this, this guy and he's
like he he, you know, opens upthe back of his suv and all I
look, while I'm in the middle ofdoing something.
He looks left, looks right,checks his six, and I'm like
whoa, what the f?
And this is that like the boysand girls club is right there.
So rather than going out thefront door, I go out the side

(52:32):
entrance to take a look, andwhat it was is there was like a
drop-off point there and he wastrying to like like a drop-off
for extra, like you know whetherit's clothes or like even
furniture stuff, and and thenthey'll take it and you know
they'll resell it and stuff likethat for for money, and you're
just don't, you're just donatingit.
Well, he was had this heavy asslike dresser in the back of his

(52:53):
vehicle and like he was lookingaround to see if there was
someone to like give him a handor something like that you don't
need.
Because it was the same exactthing, because he was looking
around.
And so I'm like, oh shit, herewe go and I look and I'm like,
oh, hey, of course, naturallyI'm still investigating.

(53:13):
I'm like, hey, do you need ahand with something?
He's like yeah, bro, can youhelp me get this thing out of
the vehicle.
I don't want to break with whathe was wearing or the type of
car that he had, or, or you knowhis tattoos or his.

(53:35):
You know the, the tank top hehad on.
You know it was just what hisbehavior within that defined
context was, and so it's.
It's like I, I don't know how to, how to.
It's hard sometimes, I think,for us.
And and when you get thisinitial like to see something or
to explain it, where peopleeither go, yeah, but it could be

(53:58):
whatever, or they go oh, yeah,yeah, I, I totally get it.
Yeah, no, that makes sense.
It's like, yeah, but you're notdoing it.
It's like no, no, I get it.
When I see that stuff, it'slike no, no, no, it's seeing it
every single day.
It's at the starbucks when it'snothing is happening, it's at
your local place when there isnothing wrong to still be able
to determine the incongruentsignals and what's typical and
what's normal, because if Istart with that, it's going to

(54:19):
be much easier and and goingdown this other rabbit hole just
of ideology, and what thatmeans is just it's all well,
it's conjecture.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
It's great when you're writing a report and you
tie those things back and saythese were how I made the
identification of the person.
These were things that I sawthat were unique to this person,
so I knew it was the sameperson I was following.
Like for surveillance and thoseother things, because they
could be descriptors, they couldbe identifying factors, but the
idea is behavior is much moreimportant.
So so we know from justwatching the caper that Audrey

(54:55):
never intended to make it out ofthat building.
We also know that she wasfamiliar with this school.
She was familiar and she choseit why?
well, geographic familiaritymeans something to me, so I
don't go.
Wow, that door is locked, wow,they.
Wow, they're closed today.
Wow, you know, I chose a bar torob and it's the pancake
breakfast for the police league,right?
So so there's a certain amountof things that we can take a

(55:16):
look at and determine likelihood, and so one of the things is
that there's a great set ofphotos of her on the second
floor, I believe, shooting downat the police officers and
shooting it down at the policecar.
Why?
Because she was at the end ofher plan he doesn't have
additional information in theplan and she goes well, the cops
are here and this was going tobe my way out anyway.

(55:36):
So what I'm going to do is I'mgoing to shoot some cops and I'm
going to shoot at some cops andI'm going to keep the firefight
up for a while.
Why?
Because my plan didn't have achapter next.
So, because I don't have achapter next.
Well, this is a good place asany, and they're here, and I'm
here.
If she would think back toKlebold and Harris, klebold and
Harris effectively chased outeverybody that could have been a

(55:57):
next victim.
Okay, so then they were likewell, we're at the end of our
plan and we are going to takehostages and demand a helicopter
and a bus.
But you know, we're at the endof our plan and we are going to
take hostages and demand ahelicopter and a bus, but we're
at the end.
So we killed each other.
So what I'm saying is, brian,sometimes we have to look at
what led up to it.
For example, if she would haveleft the car running in front of
the business, for example, sheshot through the security of the

(56:20):
front doors.
We saw the videotape on that.
Anybody watching would haveseen that.
So that means that she had aplan for those doors.
But you know what?
She didn't have a plan for Allthose big guns hanging out of
the bag.
Did you see her try to getthrough that front door?
She got caught and then shebacked up and then she had to
duck down.
So certain things like that showus that this is a novice.
This isn't her second or thirdschool shooting.

(56:41):
This person is learning andadapting as they're going, and
so those things seeing thoseintent-based human behavior
observations help me determinewhat kind of shit I'm in for.
The firefight, for the comingarrest.
Is the person going to drop thegun when the cops come and show
them.
We can predict those.
The FBI story says we can'tpredict any of this stuff and

(57:01):
reality and science show that wecan't predict any of this stuff
.
But we can determine likelihoodbased on demonstrations of
intent.
And what's the best place to dothat?
A gosh damn parking lot,because parking lots are
ubiquitous and we're in them allthe time which means we have a
lot more comparative informationon what's clinically normal and
what's not.

Speaker 1 (57:22):
That's it I mean think of that so that's the part
of it about you know is sinceall of our, every perception,
every observation you have is acomparison to something.
It's a comparison to a known.
That's why, when people go, hey, that looks weird or different,
or I don't get that, it'sbecause you're looking at
something and, whether yourecognize or not, there's

(57:43):
something about the situation,the person, what's happening,
that doesn't fit, that youhaven't seen before.
Now again, that doesn't meanthey're planning an attack on
something, it just means it's acomparison or it's dangerous.
Exactly.
But the point is, that's why weuse the parking lot, because
it's like you go through howmany parking lots a day?

(58:03):
Everywhere you go, you have togo into a parking lot.
It's the absolute perfect placeto you know, update and inform
your baseline the context ofwhat's normal, what's typical,
what do I see you know doingthat, lap around, even put one
of those out.
You remember when we were it'son our instagram folks, it

(58:25):
actually kind of got.
I think it got like a couplemillion views or something.
But the, the one where we werein, we were in, we were just
outside, we were in ann arborand you know, we did a drive
around the parking lot becausewe saw just this a vehicle
parked as far away from thebuilding as you could not near
any of the other things.
There was like an arm stickingout of it or something like that
, and we just did a drive aroundand you were narrating and I

(58:47):
was, you know, and I rememberfilming and that the.
The point is like that was we,we.
That could have been audreyhell, but it wasn't.
It was a couple kids orwhatever.
It was people hanging outhaving a cigarette.
It's like that.
That's the point is if, if youcan't it here, then you're never
going to see that stuff.
If you can't tell me whattypical and do that sense making

(59:09):
exercise to to do a hypothesistest and say, all right, if this
is, then what else it could be?
Let me go investigate further.
And it literally took a minutea minute, because the video is a
minute long and that's how longit took to determine.
Is this something that they'rejust hanging out or is this
something dangerous that we haveto investigate further?
And so those simple, thosesimple exercises that people do

(59:38):
is that's where, where all theall the power is in it.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
I think it's.
It's, that's how you get betterat it, so Absolutely agree.
All right Well look we're, we'realmost up on an hour.
Do you want to drop a couple ofmore fucks to see if?

(01:00:00):
All right For a school if youwork in a gosh damn factory
making widgets.
This is emblematic of theproblem, because it took two
years to get the report and it'san incredible report.
But look at all the rabbitholes that people are going to
jump onto and you know what theimportant ones are.
What are the demonstrations ofintent?
What can I prove right now isincongruent and why does it

(01:00:22):
matter to what's going to happennext?
And if they follow in a pattern, then you're likely a piece of
candy.
It's about to.
You know it's about to be gameon that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
Brian alone that helps me defend against a shitty
situation yeah, so that thatthat's sort of our challenge to
the listeners is like the nexttime you're in a parking lot,
figure out.
You know, why would someonepark here versus there?
What are they likely doing?
Where is this likely happening?
What is the reason for that?
Right, remember, when we pulledup to that one place, was it

(01:00:54):
where it was like 20 or there'slike 20 or 30 hvac vans in the
parking lot.
We're going what?
This isn't an hvac, so is thisa conference?
What's going?
And they were doing like they'rebig, there's like some big
project going on nearby and theyall had to park there, but it
was one of those.
So out of the place, right.
But but you know, you and andfigure out where it is, you know

(01:01:21):
, just go well, all right,what's the?
What's the next?
Those subscribers, and I'llhave some of the photos from the
report and I'll put all thelinks in there too as well, so
you can check it out and readthrough this.
But it's a good one, as most ofthese investigations are, after
the fact, where there's somegreat information.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
It's an incredible job with the information they
have Incredible, yeah.
So okay, I think that's it,greg, we yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:41):
So okay, I think that's it, greg.
We went over a lot.
I probably we need a need likea bleep button for me on this
one but it's just yeah, yeah.
So we appreciate everyone fortuning in.
Like I said, there's alwaysmore on Patreon.
Reach out with any questionsthat you have, you know.
You can always reach out to ustoo at the human behavior

(01:02:03):
podcast at gmailcom and youcould, you know and to our
Patreon folks always giving us agreat, you know, suggestions
for podcast topics and that'swhere we get a lot of them.
So we appreciate you for thatand thanks everyone for tuning
in.
If you, if you enjoyed theepisode, give us a good review,
share it with a friend, that'dbe great.
And don't forget that trainingchanges behavior.