Violence is a Language

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This episode explores the complex relationship between violence and communication, positing that violence can be a maladaptive language used by individuals when they feel unheard or powerless. The hosts discuss behavioral distinctions, the significance of feeling heard, and how effective communication can prevent violent escalations while providing insights from real-world examples.

• Exploring the concept of violence as a language 
• Understanding maladaptive coping mechanisms and their role 
• Distinguishing between acting up, acting out, and acting in 
• The importance of feeling heard in human interactions 
• Analyzing historical examples of violence as communication 
• Strategies for de-escalation: employing time and distance 
• The need for empathy and understanding in conflict situations

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone and welcome to the Human Behavior
Podcast.
Have you ever watched someoneflip from calm to combative in
an instant and wondered whattriggered that response?
In today's episode, we'retaking a deep dive into the idea
that violence is a language, alast resort form of
communication people may usewhen they feel powerless,
unheard or desperate.
During the episode, we talkabout how to spot the early
signs that someone is acting up,acting out or turning inward,

(00:22):
and why each of these behaviorsmatters more than the actual
words they say.
We also discuss simplestrategies like using time and
distance to help de-escalatetensions before they spin out of
control.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
We hope you enjoyed the episode.
Don't forget to check out ourPatreon channel for additional
content and subscriber-onlyepisodes.
If you enjoy the podcast,please consider leaving us a
review and, more importantly,sharing it with a friend.

(00:51):
Thank you for your time andremember training changes
behavior.
Okay, Greg.
So today's overarching theme ofthe show is going to be called
violence is a language, and thisis something that you've kind
of alluded to or said severaltimes before in the past, and I
think we even wrote somethingabout this a while back, but,
you know, wanted to discuss itwith our listeners and what you
mean by it, and get into a fewthings.
I know for those of you who've,like you know, been to our
class or even just listen to thepodcast we, you know, we like

(01:13):
to say most people want theirsay, not their way right.
Most people just want to getsomething off their chest.
They want to complain to themanager, they, whatever the
situation is.
It's sort of a psychological,sociological imperative.
But some people want their sayand their way right, and that's
kind of what we look out for.
Like is this person?
Are they acting up and they'rejust being a person who acts up

(01:37):
we all do sometimes or are theyacting out?
Is there something else that'sgoing on here?
Because when we say the dangerlies in the people that want
their say and their way, youknow that that's where we get
into what we do.
How do you then, how do youdetermine this is a person who
wants their way versus someone'ssay?
We talk about demonstrations ofintent, but I don't want to go
down that sort of pathway.

(01:58):
I kind of wanted to just getinto what we mean by violence as
a language, because we use thatas an overarching theme for
some of the cases that wediscuss, some of the things that
we see on the news and howthese things occur, where other
people look at the differentfactors and their motive and
what they did and you know howthey were upset about something
and what group influenced theirway of thinking, and a lot of

(02:20):
that stuff.
I I get why we analyze it and itseems significant, but it's
typically like significant forthat moment in time, Like maybe
this is a group I was inspiredby but in five years that group
doesn't exist anymore or there'sa different one or there's
something else.
Those contributing factors,sometimes because I think

(02:47):
they're almost, they're a littlebit arbitrary and because they
just fit sort of this generalmold or thing that we can point
to when a lot of times thefactors are a little bit
different.
So that's kind of a lot.
But we'll start theconversation there and what I
guess maybe start by.
However, you want to definewhat you mean when you say
violence is a language.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah, so we'll start there, but we've got to dance
around a little bit to make surewe get there.
So violence is a language.
Whenever an individual feelsoverwhelmed or unable to handle
a situation constructively,violence becomes a maladaptive
coping mechanism.
In other words, it's not whereyou should go, but it's where
you do go.
And I feel that it's amazingthat we're having this

(03:30):
discussion on the 6th of January.
I just dawned on me when Ilooked at the clock behind you
there and Martin Luther King, in1967, said a riot is the
language of the unheard.
And that's my starting pointwhen I say violence is a
language, because when I talkabout maladaptive coping look,
brian, when we don't know how orwhat to say in the moment, then

(03:57):
violence is always on the tipof our tongue, because that's
how we are raised, that's partof our foundation.
It's a fundamental underpinningof humankind.
So really quickly to go back towhat you said about people want
their say, not their way.
It's been a couple of yearssince we handled a podcast on
that and deep-dived, but what weneed to know about that is most

(04:20):
people like to express theiropinion or their perspectives on
any matter at hand.
They want to be heard, theywant to know and feel that their
specific opinions are beingconsidered, but most people
don't go around insisting thatwe accept their opinions or
follow up on their perspectives.
That's huge.
That speaks directly to theviolence as a language.
And then we also understand.

(04:42):
I'm sorry.
Go ahead, Brian.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
No, no.
And you brought up a great wordthat you use and I want to.
I want to kind of stress thatto everyone listening.
You said we, we want to feellike we're heard.

Speaker 2 (04:52):
That's very different than actually being heard, and
this is why this is the mostimportant, yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:57):
But, but, but.
But.
I want to get that becausethat's part of what in cap
police people want, their say,not their way, like this is also
why social media works so welland why everyone can comment
like I need to feel heard, Ineed to feel better, I need to
exactly I may not actually thesituation may not improve for me
.

Speaker 2 (05:13):
But if I feel like it is, yeah, okay, I just want to,
I want to stress that no, no,that's, that's great that you do
that, because sometimes I go atthe speed of greg and that's
not the speed of retention orunderstanding all the time.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Well, you're also getting on and off the freeway
and making frequent stopsSometimes to rob a liquor store,
sometimes to go to the bathroom.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
So the people wanting their say, not their way.
Okay, that's your expressiveside and your feeling.
And so then we talked.
Brian talked briefly at thevery beginning about action.
Speak louder than words.
We did an entire episode onthat, but these are the three
that are important to you.
Acting up, that's being loud,disobedient, misbehaving.
Acting out, that's beingdisruptive, that means you're

(05:54):
moving things around andtouching people.
And then what I like to callacting in, that's your human
behavior, signifying that youwant to be left alone.
You've gone internal and I needto know about all three of
those.
If I'm going to read the room,I've got to read the tea leaves.
And Brian, gestures are soessential communicating that we
make them even when we're alone.
But on a phone speaking withsomebody else, we can all see

(06:15):
that when we're alongside a car,because everybody's texting and
speaking and you see the peopleshow exasperation or they're
trying to be demonstrative withtheir hands.
So the next likely thing tothat look, words are important,
but a pointy, talky chart gotyour son or daughter or husband
through Iraq and Afghanistanduring a war.
Okay, trade happened in theworld, even though we didn't

(06:37):
speak the language or understandthe culture.
But then pigeon English andpigeon.
Language came up as a languageof trade where we took those key
things that we understood andput them together.
I don't know if you've everseen the Sopranos, but they had
a Johnny Cake episode on it andevery time that Johnny Cake
episode played I laughed.
Because Johnny Cakes everybodyknows what they are on the East

(06:58):
Coast, a very East Coast thing.
That's not where they came from.
They came from places likeTrinidad and Tobago where they
were called journey cakes andpeople were mispronouncing the
journey, the hard tack that youhad in your saddle when you were
going to different places.
So all of our language comesfrom us defining what those
words mean.
Not the word the rose by anyother name, do you get it?

(07:21):
So violence is always there andwhen it's like, like if you
think about certain things, whenpush comes to shove, hey, let's
put that on a punch list.
Hey, adding insult to injury,let's take a stab at it.
All of those things areviolence born.
Why?
Because when you were not, whenyou felt that you were being
misunderstood, not understood,you couldn't get your voice

(07:44):
heard, then you resorted largelyto physical actions.
And you know what?
If it wasn't a physical act,then it certainly was
intentionally causing harmthrough words, that's violence
too.
And there's a whole school ofthought out there, brian, that
would tell me oh no, that's notthe way things work.
If it's not a physical act,then speech can never be

(08:04):
violence.
I call bullshit.
I call people that like you andme that have chronic exposure to
violence, Brian, are much moreprone to resort to violence to
be heard when we feel that we'renot being heard, and it's a
character trait, perhaps, ormaybe it's our maladaptive
response to humans but that'swhat we do.

Speaker 1 (08:24):
So yeah, and you call it the maladaptive coping
mechanism and it's.
You know, I look at it as it'snot, that I see this kind of
mis-explained or misunderstood alot of times, because when
people do this, you know we'rejust a few steps away from
complete chaos and peoplefighting in the streets, and
it's like no, we're fucking not.
You know, people fighting inthe streets and it's like no,

(08:45):
we're fucking not.
You know how I know that,because it's not whatever
happens, like when, when shitgoes down, people, people band
together and they, they worktogether as as a tribe or a clan
, or a family or community or orcity, whatever.
But but what you?
But in a sense you are sayingthat it's it's kind of like at
the tip of her tongue, more forsome people than for others,
based on their life experienceand training and a whole bunch

(09:08):
of other different or or lack ofself-control, or or lack of,
you know, emotional regulationno, critical thinking skills,
yeah, brain damage there's.
There's a bunch, so some morethan others, but but what do you
mean, though, when you say it'slike?
It's kind of at the tip of ourtongue?
It's almost to me.
I explained it like the easybutton is to get angry and bash
you over the head when I don'tlike something.

(09:28):
That's actually easier thanworking it out and compromise
right.
So so what to to kind of youknow, before we get some of the
examples really define that thatviolence is a language.
If I'm trying to tell yousomething and I'm not getting
through to you, greg, I may hita threshold where you know what,
I know what I'll get through toyou, because violence is a

(09:49):
language that every human beingimplicitly understands.
They don't have to be taught itRight, and maybe you haven't
been, and so, but that firstpunch in the face goes oh wow,
probably shouldn't have saidthat you know, but you know,
everyone should have thatexperience.
I've had it many times, but theidea meaning it's so ingrained
in human survival and that itsort of is right underneath the

(10:13):
surface.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
It is.

Speaker 1 (10:16):
Some that you know, people, it's got to get deeper
under the water.
Some it's right below thesurface, right, but some people
who have it right at the surfaceare actually better at
controlling it and using it inareas that that they've they
find necessary.
But but to understand this,violence is language.
I literally look at it as that.
It's like, well, I, I have tospeak to you in a way that you
understand and everyoneunderstands this.

(10:37):
I mean, that's just and and sothis is, when we look at the
different cases, like that's nodifferent to me from a domestic
violence situation.
A young kid who's a gangbanger,who's just shooting it out in
the streets against some rivalgang and he doesn't even fully
know why, or or something like,hey, I'm gonna, you know, I'm
gonna pack my rental truck fullof explosives and gasoline and

(11:01):
I'm gonna make a big to do aboutit because I'm not being hurt.
Right to me when it, when itcomes to this, is like look for
the what are the simpleconnections?
Everyone wants to make theseextravagant, whatever, and not
blame the actual person who didit, right, well, that kid didn't
know, he's only 14 and he wasraised that way in the streets.
Like, okay, but there's otherkids who go through the same

(11:22):
thing that don't choose that andthen, well, this guy, you know,
didn't understand thissituation and he wasn't fully
informed and you gottaunderstand, he had a lot of
mental health issues and he sayslike, yeah, but a lot of people
fall into that category andthey don't go and do those
things.
So that that's part of thedifference too.
And when we talk about peoplewho want their say versus people
who want their say and theirway, is there, there's, there,

(11:42):
there's.
That's a different threshold.
You know it's, it's a smallamount of people I would say,
right, it's, it's, it's a very,you know, it's statistically
insignificant almost sometimes.
However, we all, everyone elsealso fits into that.
We'll call it a continuumsomewhere, right, you're all in

(12:02):
it somewhere at some point onthere.
And and raising that next levelis going to be dependent on a
number of different factors, butthey're typically internal and
not external factors, meaningit's not that it was ISIS,
because if ISIS didn't exist,that guy would have found a
different group to associatewith.
Right, it's not the trench coatmafia, because, oh well, that's

(12:23):
not even around anymore, butthere's still school shootings.
Right, it's not the trench coatmafia, because, oh well, that's
not even around anymore, butthere's still school shootings.
Right, it's we.
We can pick whatever thing thatwe want to do, but it's a
little bit deeper than that, andthat's where you kind of come
up with why I like the phrase.
Violence is a language, so sowhat?
What do we need to know aboutthat then?

Speaker 2 (12:38):
Or how do I understand that better?
That's great.
So I would say if there was atalking point that occurred
before that, because violence asa thing, but we don't
understand that.
De-escalation has been aroundjust as often as gestures for

(13:10):
speaking.
It's a part of how humans arebuilt.
We normally de-escalate becauseit's in our favor to make
friends and make tribes and makegroups and make love and do all
those wonderful things.
So clearly the defensemechanisms don't come up
autonomically unless we see asign of danger or additional
opportunity.
So the idea there is that wetry to make the escalation a

(13:34):
module a thing.
Well, it's how we're built,it's how our chemical structure
works in our brain.
That's like face recognition.
It's there because we look at aperson and we see the emotion
on the face and we go.
Well, generally, unless I'mbeing fooled, this is a good
situation and I think thisperson would fit in in my tribe
or clan or pants.
You know we got to be veryobvious with that and and the

(13:55):
idea of back in the lateseventies, brian, in the dojo,
when we had the logo made forthe karate school and had the
letters stylized S-M-O-B-M andwear your big boy and girl pants
out there.
It meant show me or blow me,because every dojo that I was
going to as a black belt,there's a lot of theory, brian,
but not a lot of people throwingit down on the mat, and the
idea was okay.

(14:16):
Well, if you're thinking thatthis situation is actually you
know, that should be, to bebrutally honest.
There's another violence term.
If you're thinking that thissituation can be resolved
without violence, show me.
Show me how that works.
And what happened is peopledidn't understand the gift of
time and distance.
And that was literally thebeginning of this.
You know, if, if I don't carrya gun, okay, well, that what

(14:38):
does that mean?
Well, that means, if I need one, I'll take yours.
Well, guess what, how do youdefeat that, brian?
Gift of time and distance, Ican't get to your gun.
Okay, do you see what I'mtrying to say?
The strategy didn't change.
And you say well, I'll wearnine winter coats over my gun,
so you would have to cut throughme with a machete.
You see what I mean?
It's the idea of how you do it.
So look, it's January 6th.

(15:01):
The lawmakers hid beneath theirdesks.
What should they have done?
They should have been outtalking to their constituents.
That's the only way that youcan decompress a situation is to
face the situation with logicand understanding and try to
calm it down.
And if you can't do that, whatdo you meet it with?
You send out a larger volume ofwell-aimed fire or a higher

(15:21):
degree of explosives.
Brian, why did the guy commitsuicide in front of Trump?
He felt that he was beingmarginalized.
He felt that nobody waslistening to him.
Why did a copper put hisuniform on and drive to work and
park in the Sallyport and blowhis brains out?
Because he felt like I'm donenow with this part of my life
and I have to leave you with amessage that you won't forget,

(15:43):
because that's me.
I want to control thatnarrative.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
So and and that that that's the big you brought up
one.
The big thing is is is time anddistance to get to the point
where you're going to useviolence as a language, where
you're you're not being heard,no one's understanding you.
So I'm going to start, I lookat it with, with, with the
terrorist, the little guy.
Right, he's 18 months old,right?
But, like you were saying, wecommunicate all day long.

(16:08):
I know what he wants, I knowwhat he needs.
We work on docky pointy.
Gabe taught him some basic signlanguage so he understands it
and then he can conceptualize it.
First we taught him the morewhen he wants more food.
But then, when I was playingaround with him and I was
throwing him up in the air and Istopped, he went more like I

(16:28):
want that, and I was like, okay,now he understands not just
more food, he understands aconcept of more.
So he goes back and forth.
But when he gets tired and hegets frustrated, he gets fucking
angry man, like because he'strying to tell me something and
I'm not getting it and hesmashes things, and so it's like
I just leave it as a very, veryprimitive response to something
.
But that take now, but, but butfor for an 18 month old, that
flash to bang is right away,because this is the worst thing
that's ever happened to their intheir life, because they're

(16:49):
only 18 months old.
So so let's get in the worldlike adults then, or, or you
know, you're, you're grown up atleast.
Like what, that time anddistance, what?
What are the factors there?
Like what, how does it take,meaning like to get to the point
where, okay, I'm gonna go builda v-bed and blow it up, I'm
gonna go into the office andkill a bunch of people, or I'm

(17:10):
gonna kill this person, likebecause, because it can happen,
that rage can happen right therein the moment.
But that's different.
Like a rage attack where roadrage, perfect example I've got
all this stuff going on in myhead.
I'm pissed off, you cut me off,we're f you, I'm gonna shoot
you and kill you, right.
Well, that's different thancarrying out like an attack
because there's no, that's that.
The flash to bang is rightthere, they're in the moment and

(17:31):
boom, it's rage.
We see red, right, we havedifferent uh interpretations
that, even legally.
But that's different when it'ssomething planned.
So like that, when you get intothe time and distance, that's
where things get.
They can get complex becauseit's it's different for each
situation.
Is that?
Is that true?
Or?
Or how do I delineate thesedifferent situations, cause we
like to lump?

Speaker 2 (17:49):
them together under one concept.

Speaker 1 (17:51):
So how do I understand that?
So just so.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
So I reinforce your final point.
Before I reinforce this point,Z is is six months younger than
Brian's terrorist, and and so Zwas with us, Shelly and I, on
Saturday, and every kid lovesShelly.
There is something that Shellyexudes, whatever the pheromones
are that there's not a kid thatdoesn't come running to Shelly

(18:16):
even the first time that theysee her.
She's like a magnet, and so wehad changed the water filters on
her filtration system, and so Iwas playing with Z, and then
Shelly came up out of thebasement.
The noise caused Z to orientand immediately saw Shelly and
wanted nothing more to do withme.
Now, moments before we werehaving a great time.
So Z, at just 12 months right,you know, just under a year, a

(18:40):
week under a year she pushedwith her legs to get my arms
open.
Then she pulled away from me andthen, she was head-butting me
and actually bit me with the twoteeth that she's got coming in
and I looked at Shelly and I go.
I wish you were videotapingthis, because what it was is she
didn't want to cause me harm.
She was acting out, beingdisruptive, moving things and

(19:02):
touching me to tell me that shewas unhappy with the situation
because she had no other way todo it.
She didn't have the words to doit.
So I would say, if somebody'sacting up, you can handle it.
If somebody's acting out, youcan likely handle it.
If somebody's acting in, that'swhere the danger lies, because
if somebody like, uh, how manypeople have engaged that are

(19:23):
listening to us now in drama?
We have a couple of dramaqueens, brian, that we deal with
all the time that are on theteams and what's up?
Nothing.
You having a good day, fine,yeah, okay, here we go.
What you're doing by acting inis you're begging me to pay
attention.
Most people don't want to dothat.
Most people's psychologicalde-escalation quotient is so low

(19:45):
because we play all our gamesin the phone or streaming that
we've forgotten that it's ahuman that's right in front of
us at the water cooler.
And this is where we'resupposed to let our guard down.
This is where the shields aresupposed to come down and we
should say stuff like no, really, what's bothering you now?
Well, I got a divorce and Ilost my job and I'm not feeling

(20:06):
good and this toothache is notgoing away and all those other
things.
Well, brian, if a certainamount of those get to a certain
threshold, then I'm going toact out.
I'm not just going to act up,I'm not just going to be a drama
queen, I'm not just going toact in, I'm going to vent, just
like Vesuvius.
And when I vent, sometimes thecontrol mechanism mine, my

(20:27):
personal control mechanism orthe societal ones around me
aren't going to be able toencapsulate that.
You know, we just watched thisthing on NOLA and the newest
thing that came out is the guywearing these GoPro video style
glasses while he's doing hisrehearsal.
He's driving around and takinga look, you know, and you're
going to get some pundit, somesecurity expert that's going to

(20:49):
drive on and say, well, rightthere, that was demonstrations
of intent and somebody shouldhave caught it.
Somebody should have caught it.
And the thousands of peoplethat were biking around wearing
glasses that day?
No, what you got to do is yougot to look for that leakage.
You got to look for thosestatements.
You got to look for thosestatements.
You got to look for Brian, howlong does it take to build a
VBIT?
Some people would be wicked fastat it, but what does it take?
Well, if you build it out infront of everybody, somebody is

(21:10):
going to shoot you or take youto jail or call the cops.
So what do you got to do?
You got to conceal that.
What about the items?
Well, most of the items to doillegal acts are illegal in
themselves.
Or you got to invent streettools, which means you've got to
go to certain sites or ask forthe aid of others, or write a
manifesto.
Brian, those things take time.
So it's usually flashed a bangof simmer than boil, rather than

(21:34):
so bad to be as remarkable aswhat we call road rage.
Right, that's the rage thathits you right now and it has to
run its course and abate, butthey're still rare.
We don't see incidents of roadrage in my streets every single
day.
Right, there's something thatmanifests itself.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah, and you know, to kind of give the your, your
cooking analogy you starteddoing there, it's like that, the
simmer to the boil, it's thatsimmer.
But then if I, if I come by andI put that the top, you know,
back on that pot, well it'sgoing to raise that temperature
in there and it's going toincrease the pressure in there
and is eventually going to startmaybe boiling higher than I
really want that temperature togo.

(22:11):
And so if you don't releasethat, release that heat, it's
going to continue to boil over.
But one of the things youmentioned that I kind of want to
jump into because this kind offits into all the different
subjects, like you said, it'sabout, if I look that, violence
is a language.
Is it a control mechanism,meaning whether it's the road

(22:50):
rage incident or it's some sortof attack, a domestic violence
thing.
When I'm getting in there,let's say that this person is
like is there some what I'mtrying to get at?
Sorry, kind of tripping over mywords here this morning, but if
I'm going to control thenarrative, I can use violence as
a language.
Where the road rage one, it'sstill an element of control in a
sense, because it's like youcut me off.

(23:11):
I'm in my lane.
It's like dude, this is afucking highway man.
It belongs to whoever's on here, right.
The internal factor of loss ofcontrol seems a lot more
powerful and a lot moresignificant than whatever
fucking group I'm following ISISradicalization, you mean?

(23:34):
Yeah, you get what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (23:36):
Would you agree with me, May I depose you?
Would you agree with me thatsome people are just assholes
and some people will find areason to make your day
miserable just because they likeit?
Yeah absolutely.
There are some people like thator a situation or something, and
you know what?
We see them a lot because we'reout in public more than other
people and we travel a lot andI've seen it in the airline

(23:58):
industry amazing amount of stuffthat people go through to give
you a hard time.
You know, like like pardon me,brother, I'm not your brother.

Speaker 1 (24:08):
Oh, okay, this is where we're starting.
You get what I'm saying,because it's on now.

Speaker 2 (24:12):
Now they may have worked with the seven people
before me, but Greg's here nowand I want to introduce you to
my psychological brand ofwarfare.
The idea, brian, is that whenwe take a look at NOLA and we
take a look at the attacker,that was there, of course that
could have happened, of courseit was a manifesto, but when you
get an angry person, that'sfull and they're done okay,

(24:32):
they're going like.
I'll give you one.
There was a judge on Christmas,new Year's, one of the holidays
and it doesn't matter which.
Read our book and look up howthe seven step works and the
cognitive rule of threes, if youwant to go deeper.
But there was a judge thatshowed up for his last day of
work.
At the end of the last day ofwork, he put his robes on, he
sat at his bench and he shothimself.
I cannot tell you in my careerhow many I've done at least a

(24:55):
dozen that I know that have donethat exact same thing.
Why?
Because he wanted to controlthe narrative.
It was a place he feltcomfortable and this was the
place he wanted to return tomore than anything else.
And when that was denied him,this was his—now.
Look, he could have shot adefendant.
He could have shot the bailiff,he could have got in a shootout
with security at the court, butthat's not his brand of

(25:16):
violence as a language.
His violence was directedagainst himself.
Okay, because he was closingthe chapter of the book my life
is at end right now.
And then the lights go dark.
Right, your NOLA guy said man,I'm in pain, so I'm going to
spread the wealth, I'm going tospread the pain to a whole lot
of people.
And you know what?

(25:37):
You're going to have to read itnow, because I'm going to put
an exclamation point on the endof it.
Now, trump guy did the samething, but I don't think Trump's
guy was in intent to killanybody, because he had an hour
of driving around the building.
Yeah, where he could have.
Yeah, he could have pulled upin a parking lot.
He could have pulled up in theairport parking garage.
He had the capacity to do that.
So you've got two capers thatseem intertwined, but when we

(26:00):
get down to the nitty gritty,it's about the human at the end
of the equation, and that'swhere we need to start.
We need to talk about humans,humans to humans, and when I
have a shitty taste in my mouth,I got to take a drink to get it
out of my mouth, and sometimesthat drink is alcohol, sometimes
it's drugs, and sometimes it'sthe muzzle of a gun, and
sometimes I feel so bad.

(26:20):
Brian, I want to share thatpain.
And how do I share that pain?
Domestic violence how do Ishare that pain?
You're going to take my kidsfrom me, so I'm going to show up
and meet you to exchange thekids, and I'm going to
understand if the person infront of you is exhibiting

(26:40):
signals.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
So this is a good explanation of how we said it
before.
You know where I always talkabout, like whether it's a
person who comes in and, youknow, shoots up a school or
kills themselves, it's the sameidea, right.
One is gone internal and it'ssort of like, well, I'm the
problem here, or I know how todeal with this situation.
I'm going to make sure I'mheard, whatever when the other
one is.
A lot of times it's well, thisisn't you know what F all of you

(27:08):
, you're the reason why you'rethis, and so it becomes that
that's still.
It's a lack of control.
It's a different copingmechanism.
Either way, they're, they're.
They're both maladaptive, rightthey're not precisely they're
not correct.
They're.
They're not.
They're certainly not logical,but meaning they're not in
keeping with, you know, evenjust basic biology and survival
of species.

(27:28):
Right.
It's not supposed to be thatway.
There are certain factors.
It should be about survival.
Right is what we're primed for.
So if I'm not in a survivalsituation and I'm killing
someone, well it's kind of alittle.
Right Is what we're primed for.
So if I'm not in a survivalsituation and I'm killing
someone, well, it's kind of alittle bit different than what
I'm wired for as a human being.
Right.
And so it's just an incorrect,like you call it that, a
maladaptive coping mechanism.

Speaker 2 (27:49):
Because it's not insulting and everybody gets it,
you know.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
Well yeah, and it's because it's, I think, a Well
yeah, and it's because it's, Ithink, a better way of
explaining it than saying a lackof critical thinking or a lack
of coping skills or a lack ofthis.
It's like, no, you have copingskills, they do.
It's just a very, verydifferent manner.
So we don't have to talk aboutthose two specific cases.

(28:14):
But you know, you're talkingabout the family annihilator
situation.
Talk about judge committingsuicide.
I brought up, like you know, thekid gang mayor run up and, you
know, got got caught up,supposedly in the city doing
this, so so on.
That you know spectrum, I guess, of people acting up versus you
know, or, excuse me, you knowacting out versus acting up.
You know what are like thosetypical things, cause there are

(28:38):
some typical things that you seeacross those.
Or is it, as I look at it, whenI get, when the pressure's on,
as we know, when the stress ison whether it's psychological,
physiological, it doesn't matterwhat it is Like I fall back on
what I know.
So, so, if I fall back on mylack of critical thinking, cause

(29:01):
I'm a kid and I'm a gangbangerand all I know is violence,
that's what I've seen.
Well, that that's a viablesolution for me.
If I've seen other people carryout attacks and was fascinated
by them and you know what, Iknow I'm going to lash out at
everyone Well, now, that seemslike a viable solution for me.
So what are the other?
What are their indicators?
In a sense and I'm not askingfor a list of things to look for
, because it doesn't- reallyexist, right, but what is it
about?
what typifies that behavior inpeople that you don't see in

(29:23):
other people?
Because it's not just there inthat one thing, because what I'm
saying is, if I carry out ahighly organized attack, I'm
likely organized in other areasof my life.
That's not a bad thing.
Maybe that makes me a betteremployee, maybe that makes me
better and it's scientific.
So it's like how do I take thecomparisons that are good, in a

(29:45):
sense, that aren't a bad thing?
Do I have to look at them asbeing well?
How would this person use thatin a negative way?
Or what other things do theyshow that that I see someone
leaning towards that area,because we get we get asked our
opinion a lot on different casesor things.
We have clients that reach outand that this is basically what
it comes down to is.

(30:06):
Is this the guy that's going tocome in and do this?
Because they're hitting all ofthese other areas right, and
that's the.
That's the hardest part to do,because it's so, it's so case
specific, right?
I mean, it's so specific tothat individual sometimes that
it it, it.
It gives the appearance of itbeing a lot more complex than it

(30:28):
actually is.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah.
So I would say nothing is morecomplex than a Brian Marin six
prong-pronged question yeah,yeah, a lot of thought into why
that's a great I didn't put anythought in my question.
That's why yeah, but let metell you right now there's so
many landmines in that yeah, soI'm gonna have to navigate.

Speaker 1 (30:46):
Well, I I started to walk towards one.
I was like I don't want to putyou in a landmine.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
I kind of want to like no, no, no, no you I'm in
the chinese swing right now.
Okay, so here's the thing.
Three comparisons I'd like tomake, the first one to what you
said initially, and it's whythere are social constructs that
are also physiologicalconstructs, that delge from
sociology to physiology, topsychology.

(31:12):
Murder is wrong in everycountry on the face of the
planet.
Committing murder because it'snot a good thing to do, dropping
somebody from the count whenyou need a good, rich, wide
group of people to procreate.
But every country on the faceof the planet has justifiable
homicides okay, and they alsohave war where, where?

(31:32):
and even the religions saythere's certain times that you
can fight.
That's an important distinction.
Folks Dig into that.
There's an answer there.
Compare that the opposite sideof that same coin to incest.
Incest is not a viable genepool.
So no matter how good yoursecond cousin looks I don't know
what the numbers are orwhatever there's a thing inside
of you that makes that revoltingand that's a good thing.

(31:53):
And there's no country on theface of the planet that says
thou shalt sleep with thineyoungest.
That's bullshit, because thatdoesn't go towards procreation.
So if you take a look from lawor from science or from genetics
, you're going to come up withthe same answers.
And we like that.
Brian, you and I both likethings that are simple in
science.
They're not binary necessarily,but they're simple, they're

(32:16):
simplified.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
They're elegant.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
Elegant.
Yeah, simple, so simple,they're elegant.
So that takes me to mastermanipulators and I'll explain
this.
If you attempt suicide and youdon't complete it, there's a
very low chance you'll ever tryit again, because many times the
people that attempt suicide arescreaming for attention, and

(32:39):
negative attention is attentionnonetheless.
And what I mean by that is ifyou have, or surrounded yourself
or met a master manipulator,your kid's going to be either
really, really smart but doingshitty in school, or they've got
you thinking that, look, theonly thing that's going to make
me come back around for thatbirthday is that handgun we've

(33:01):
been looking at on thatwonderful first-person shooter.
What's happened is you'veencountered a person that's so
cognitively based that they'rethinking so many steps ahead of
you that they're alreadyplanning their school shooting
or suicide or whatever is intheir narrative.
But they're on chapter 17 andyou've just cracked a book and,
as a parent or as a teacher oras a counselor, you're missing

(33:23):
these cues.
And why are you missing thecues?
Because you're so close thatyou're up and out or down and in
and you can't balance thoseagainst what's in front of you.
Master manipulators will stealthe radio and leave you the
music and and you won't noticeit.
Why?
Those are the signs you shouldbe looking for.
Uh, if I've got time to broodso deeply that I'm writing a

(33:44):
manifesto and going on myfacebook page and updating it
and and still amassing matchesand fireworks and all this other
stuff, brian, that takes a lotof time.
You got to be out of work to dothat.
I don't know anybody that canmaintain a normal nine to five
and go home to mom and dad orthe kids or whatever mom and mom
, whatever your relationship is,and pull that off.

(34:04):
Take a look at the people thatwe've seen do that.
They are acting in.
They've dropped themselves fromthe radar because everything's
internal.
So they can't hold down a job.
They can't hold down a marriage.
They can't hold down a job.
They can't hold down a marriagethey can't hold.
Maybe they got other thingsthat are competing with them,
because your high functioningperson is also going to be a
manipulator.
But guess what?
They're going to be in the bandand they're studying a new

(34:26):
interest, a new instrument.
They're learning origami, foryou know whatever else, and
they've got a new language goingEvery time somebody goes.
There was no sign of suicidebefore it happened.
There was no sign of this.
I bet you, if you look deepenough, there was a whole bunch
of signs, but you misinterpretedthose signs and that's okay
because we're humans.
Because that person fooled us.
They wore another mask and whenthat mask was on.

(34:47):
We missed those cues, huh.
So let's take a caper thateverybody knows about and I'll
go out on a limb with you,because where I go you go on
that limb bastard.
You know the, the sheriff that,uh, shot the judge in his
chambers.
Okay, that sheriff knew eachother is in tennessee or
kentucky and there was anongoing relation relationship

(35:08):
between them where they kneweach other, they worked together
and then something occurred andthey're still working out with
that.
Something is, but somethingoccurred.
That was parallel to a casethey had running where a deputy
was fired and charged for usinghis office to gain sexual favors
at some point, and then therewas an allegation that the judge
had recording equipment in hisoffice.

(35:30):
That's how they discovered onesituation, but that may have led
to the discovery of the judgehimself.
I'm talking about rumors.
Folks Was involved in someclandestine, surreptitious sex,
for you know bail something.
Yeah, but that there was also arecording of those things.
Now, at some point, the sheriffis either again speculative

(35:56):
your Honor involved in somedegree or is so insulted by
what's going on that heconfronts the judge During that
lunchtime meeting.
The judge brings up hey, youbetter watch your P's and Q's
because this is going on or I'llend you or whatever else
happens there.
And now that conversation goesback to the private chambers.
Judge doesn't understand or seehow important this is to the

(36:17):
sheriff in the moment.
He's lighting a cigarette, he'ssmiling, he's making light of
it.
Brian, the sheriff is at roadrage, he's in the red and he all
of a sudden goes well, I needto take over this narrative.
There's no way this is going toend well, this is a shit
sandwich.
And guess what?
You're making light of it.
No, that's not going to happen.
Pulls out a gun and startsshooting.
Had the gun not been there, hewould have choked him or beat

(36:41):
him to death.
Had there been an ax or a knife, he would have stabbed him to
death.
So the vehicle happened to be amass casualty-producing,
fatality-producing weapon.
But if he couldn't have donethat, he'd have built a Molotov
cocktail.
Fuck, you can go to LooneyTunes and learn how to build one
of those.
Those are on kids' cartoons inthe morning.
Do you see what I mean?
So it's the violence, that'sthe language, not the means.

(37:03):
And it's a means to readjustwhat we've been talking about.
It's like hitting that littleyou know that cat and you've got
little balls and you're tryingto get the balls in his eyes and
his mouth.
That's what you're doing, butyou're doing it to a human.
No, no, no means no, and guesswhat?
We get caught up in that.
So if I've learned that behaviorover time, that violence is a

(37:24):
language.
You've had that in your life.
I've had in my life my dad, theMarine dad, my mom and my aunt,
the Twin Towers.
We've punched and beat and bitand kicked a lot, and so guess
what do you think?
The first thing is, when I getangry and mad, I have to slow
myself down or I'm starting tothrow shit around and tip stuff
over and I'm acting out.
You know so.
So if you're asking for whattypes of those behaviors

(37:46):
underscore maladaptive behaviors, if you are maladaptive in
other ways of dealing with thesesituations, you will resort to
violence more quickly than aperson that doesn't, a person
that is adaptive, a person thatis flexible you know what do we
talk about.
There's a thousand words forthat where that person

(38:07):
understands that there's acoping mechanism other than
using those harsh words, thatharsh language, or waving a gun
around harsh words, that harshlanguage, or waving a gun around
?

Speaker 1 (38:22):
yeah, and it's.
It's that it's not always goingto maybe rise to the level of
significance like this, likethat meaning the suicide or the
violent act, like that's the,that's, that's the last thing,
obviously, that you can do, soit's the last resort.
But, like you said, you'll seeyou, you know you're last resort
.
But, like you said, you'll see,you know you're the maladaptive
behaviors in a sense you'll seeconsistently throughout that

(38:42):
person's life, maybe a littlebit, maybe a little bit, maybe a
little bit here maybe a littlebit here meaning it, it, it
becomes, it builds and buildsand builds and has to go
somewhere.
You know, I have it's even likeyou know relationships where I
people will ask me relationshipquestions.
Why I don't know.
I tell them like I'm the, forobvious reasons.
I mean, obviously, don't ask meabout that.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
Like poster child, don't.
I'll tell you.

Speaker 1 (39:06):
Well, like all about human behavior, if you want to
get a relationship that I havebetween you, know people dating
or whatever, like, look, I didnot, not, not my thing, not, not
not my thing.
However, like someone wasasking me about this person they
knew and it's like well, whatdo you think he's going to do?
I'm like he's going to continueto do the same thing, cause
what he did was he was married,had a kid was, was you know,
cheating on that person.
They got divorced, got married,had a kid with the next girl

(39:30):
and then they got divorced andnow he's going to the next.
I'm like, but it's going tokeep happening.
Like, yeah, but these are allfailures.
How does someone continue tofail?
And I was like, well, fromtheir perspective, that wasn't a
fail.
Like they, they actually gotwith a different person and they
end up getting married to them.
Like they end up like, okay,I'm with this person now.
Then they met someone else andokay, now, so it didn't really

(39:51):
fail.
It's like the, the relationshipsort of got rewarded in a sense
, and it was just a a differentway to look at it.
And that was just just oneexample.
And they're like so what do youthink, is it going to change?
I'm like not, not unlessthere's a lot of work to be done
, I can.
I can predict it that your pastbehavior is likely to be future
behavior, but it but in thesesituations it escalates.

(40:12):
Most people don't raise thatlevel, like you know that the
biggest thing is you seesomething attack, happen like
this, or like a school shootinghappens, what usually happens
within the next week or two.
Right after that there's usuallyanother one, because someone's
sitting there on the edge ofthat sort of precipice, right,
and they're at that point, andthen it's becomes very simple
because you are in a very sortof simple survival state at that

(40:35):
point.
It's like it's like the monkey,see, monkey do.
It's like, oh okay, that persondid it, I can go do this right,
because we really don't expectthese things, even though every
day there's another example orsomething you can point to and

(41:02):
it goes down.
And which is why we're alwaysmaking these arguments about how
we analyze the situation,because if I just look at it as
what education they had andwhether or not they were abused
as a child or they were on drugsor the okay, well, what, what
if none of that existed?
What if?
What if that group didn't exist?
What if there was no drugs orthese things these things would

(41:24):
still happen like a meeting.
It's we.
We pick these random things toblame.
Where you're saying here withviolence is a language is like
okay, I'm.
That person lacks the abilityto effectively communicate what
their thoughts and feelings andconcerns are Right.
So before they even get intowhether or not they're valid,
it's like they're not feelingthat they're being heard because

(41:47):
they're not being heard.
Now, whether or not you'regoing to fix that on the person,
I don't care.
That's not what we talk about.
We talk about the recognitionof where that person is at.
It has to go somewhere.
You have to get it off yourchest.
If you lack the criticalthinking skills, if you lack the
emotional maturity to do that,you still have to be heard.
You have to complain to themanager.
You have to do these things.

(42:08):
So it's a normal part of thehuman condition under abnormal
circumstances or copingmechanisms.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
Exactly so.
Look, rape is a crime ofviolence, not a crime of sex.
So with rape, your tool is yourtool, literally, and what
you're doing is you're showingthat you're mad or hate men or
women, depending on who you'reraping, or children, not that
you're getting off on it.
That's what you think you'redoing, because the endorphins

(42:39):
and the chemical imbalance andeverything else and I've never
been around a water cooler wheresomebody just in a casual
conversation dropped I'm goingto go over and rape my
neighbor's fucking, you know,13-year-old this afternoon.
You know that sounds like a goodthing to do, that would stick
out like a sore dick.
Year old this afternoon.
You know that sounds like agood thing to do.
That would stick out like asore dick, so nobody's going to
do that.
So you're wondering why thesefolks have to marginalize their

(42:59):
behavior, and what I mean bythat is they have to hide in the
seams and gaps, becausemainstream it's really hard not
to discover a person like that.
So so I I've known people thatchanged some of the auto web,
some-automatic weapons, intofull auto, and that same person
that went on to make a silencer.

(43:19):
And then, after a while, myfriends with the ATF visited
their house and those people gotthe stuff confiscated and went
to jail.
Why?
Because they went past theirfantasy about having a cool
weapon and started building shitin their basement and I didn't
know where it was going to leadto Brian.
But every time that I startedfollowing the line across my
yellow pad, I couldn't come witha.

(43:39):
Oh, he wants to silently deerhunt in a park by his house, you
know.
So so I would say, if you take ayellow pad and always set it
rectangularly for when you'redoing this, and take your stylus
, take your pen or your penciland go over here on the left and
start going on the right foryour continuum, and then what
you do is you create a littleheartbeat.
So you say something like okay,so the person told their

(44:00):
parents to F off.
Okay, there's a little blip,that's on the radar.
But you know what, on mother'sday they hand you a card and
said I'm really sorry about thatbehavior.
You know I was acting up.
Okay, then Okay, then we go alittle bit farther and that
person a year later said F offto a teacher at school, got
suspended, but then did all ofthe work that they were assigned
to make up for it and then some, and went back in the class and

(44:22):
now is a model.
So we all have those blips.
Do you get what I'm?
saying and they go above thebaseline and fall below the
baseline.
Now, if you compare that, monthto month, year to year, day to
day, whatever your timeline is,brian, and you start laying
those over each other and shinea flashlight through the back of
them, if all of those arerelatively close to that
baseline, that's life, man,that's the tapestry of life.

(44:45):
If all of a sudden you'regetting these wild ups and downs
and gradually, from left toright, we see an increase from
left to right.
Now it becomes a funnel, withthe upper side of that is going,
you know, towards the top ofthe scale rather than staying
around the baseline.
Houston, you have a problem,because that's what happens when
people say well, I wonder if myrelationship is breaking up.

(45:06):
Well before the internet, brian, I would stop at a little place
, at Aiton Shainer, every singleday on duty and get Shelly a
card and I would hand, fill outthe card with the poem and tell
her how much I loved her.
That got much easier.
Yeah, romantic me.
That got easier when we got tothings like texting, because I
can drop a text all the time.
You know how much I text Shellyand I text Shelly all the time

(45:28):
uplifting stuff like stop whatyou're doing right now and shake
that ass.
Here's a song, whatever thething is, because that
communication to me is importantand Shelly and I communicate
constantly.
Now, all of a sudden, if yousaid, well, are they having a
good time in their marriage?
You could tell if thatcommunication drops off.
Boom.
Key number one Two I'm going tothe gym seven nights a week.
Not the gym in the basementanymore, now it's in town.

(45:54):
Oh and, by the way, I'vestarted pickleball at a new club
.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
Do you?

Speaker 2 (45:56):
get what I'm saying.
So, Brian, you can comparethose baseline elements and this
nuanced stuff Now, whether it'sabove the baseline and it's new
because I'm improving myselfand trying to look better for
somebody, or below the baselineI'm spending more time in the
basement with that manifesto.
Either of those are significantand everybody shows that to
some degree.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
And we're not talking about cathartic.

Speaker 2 (46:14):
We're not talking about trying to fix me.
We're talking about thosethings that, if we take a look
at, they're bad for us.
Brian, you've been in many barsin your day today, in your life
, I mean.
And if you take a look at thestandard bar, what's the image
that conjures up?
People sitting in chairs,facing a mirror, behind the the
bar and the drink is right infront of you.

(46:34):
You want another one?
Well, that ain't going to helpyou out of shit.
So you have to compare those.
You have to compare before,what you knew of the person, a
historical perspective to now,and then that's going to help
you get an accurate projectionof the future.
Are we going to be right 100%of the time?
No, and that's the problem.
Most people don't want to beyeah, but most people don't want
to be wrong enough that theydon't want to go across the

(46:55):
street.
Knock on the door and go.
What the fuck is wrong withyour grass?
It's been growing wild.
Do you need help?
If we ask that more, therewould be less, uh, new orleans,
there'd be less trump tower.
There'd be less people layingon a shed roof at the county
fair trying to shoot the futurepresident that, that's it, it's
communication.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
It is and I agree with that statement that you
know this isn't a lot of thesethings are.
Just, they add up over timebecause no one ever took the
time for that person or no oneever took.
Now you're always going to getthe extreme cases where the
person's never going to be, butthose again, like you said, they
stick out.
When you do that, when they'rejust always like that, it's like

(47:33):
okay, this person is a tickingtime bomb.
They are always angry.
They are always saying it's so.
They don't take responsibilityfor any of their actions.
You know those things.
When you see that denialconstantly and constant blaming
others for things, it's likethat, if you're a kid, okay,
like you're still learning,right, I get it.
You're an adult and you're likethat.
You know what you're.
You're heading down a dark pathand then if you continue down

(47:56):
that, it continues to reinforceit.
If you continue to stay, likeyou said, if you continue to
stay in that bar at, you know, 9am on a monday, then you're
gonna, the longer you do it, thelonger and continue to go down
that path.
But that's the same stuff with.
I've been wronged, or I havethis information, or I'm
following this on social mediaand I'm constantly eating it and
eating, and eating anddigesting all this shit.
It's just going to.
Eventually it will sort of addup and and again like the this

(48:20):
is, these things are.
I got there, they're, they'refrustrating to talk about
because they're still the sameshit that people now everyone
links everything together andall the everything is
significant and it's like andyou're just like this is so bad,
it's so so bad.
It's like look at this person,stop looking at yourself, stop
looking at everything else outthere, and look at that

(48:42):
individual and it just the theworst.
The analysis guess shows howinept humans are at taking
another human's perspective.

Speaker 2 (48:51):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (48:52):
Exactly.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
You have to see, this is our constant argument and
it's not an argument because weboth see it and frame it very
well.
But my thing is, you have toforce yourself into those shoes
and walk around in that person'smind and look at the things
that are important to them intheir trash and in their car and
in their clothing and all thosemessages and see if they're
significant, because if they'resignificant to that person, then

(49:16):
it matters.
If they're insignificant tothat person, then you have to
disregard them.
But when we're talking aboutartifacts and evidence and
support, look, why do peoplelike apocalyptic films and books
?
Why do they like the zombies?
The zombies have gone and nowthey've faded.
Now it's the apocalyptic,post-apocalyptic.
Why?
Because it's a world with noconsequences.
Why do you like first-personshooter?

(49:38):
Because you get an assload oflives before you actually die
and what happens is that allowsme to go out and play act.
Okay, when you're play acting,you're not really killing, so
there's a big difference there.
But these people, brian, whenwe're walking around in their
lives and seeing their thing,it's all about the other person
you caused this.
One day, the shoe will be onthe other foot.

(49:58):
You'll see when things change.
I'll make sure that you know it.
I'm going to rub your nose init.
And would it surprise you thatthose people also abuse animals?
Would it surprise you thatthose people also set arson
fires?
Would it surprise you?
And we could go down that list,okay, and the?
way we're going down that listis when I'm unhappy with me.
I either cut me okay.

(50:19):
Or I do things that aren'thelped, you got it, and so if I
can't do that, maybe then I'llcut this puppy or that kid
across the street.
I'll be the bully, and so thosetype of outlets for lack of a
better term that's a mechanismthat my disobedience, my
misbehaving has crossed a line,and no longer am I just saying F

(50:43):
you, I'm saying F you, and sothere, brian, but I'm putting a
point on it, because now I'mpointing that weapon at you, or
now, look, look, you know thatsong and I don't remember it.
Bust it Out the two headlights.
You know, you'll think nexttime that you cheat on me and
the woman goes all the wayaround the guy's car and it was
a popular thing for a while.
That's maladaptive.
That's not how humans are.
I understand that you're pissed,okay.

(51:04):
But that's when you break upwith somebody.
Just add alcohol, I become anasshole.
And then what do I do?
I start looking at those thingsand now I'm taking that
disruption and I'm putting it ona thing.
Well, guess what?
If that was a domestic violencesituation and I broke that lamp
that you made when you were akid in shop class, I'm going to
jail.
I don't have to lay hands onyou.

(51:26):
Just that is enough.
So if your actions, or theactions and human behavior
remember the actions are so muchmore important than words when
we're talking about this so ifyour actions tend to show that
that person doesn't control anyof these issues, well then
what's likely going to happen?
Either that person's going todo the slow downward spiral,

(51:48):
hurt themselves, or they'regoing to distance themselves and
become that recluse, or they'regoing to find a way to be a
disruptive force in somebody'slife, and that may include
homicide or suicide.
It may not.
You may never ever rise to thatthreshold, because a lot of
humans have found other outletsfor it, but there are certain
people that that's a likely end.

Speaker 1 (52:10):
It's like you said, likely end.
It's like you said I mean youkind of you said it earlier in
in the podcast too about wederive meaning of from language
you know, based on a number ofdifferent factors and it's about
the intent behind what is said,not what's actually said.
Right, and this is anotherreason why you know if we're
talking about violence aslanguage, well, specifically,

(52:31):
behavior in the general term isa language, like everything that
we do, and this is why we go,we spend so much time beating it
.
This stuff up is like I don'tfucking care what direction you
face when you pray.
That is utterly meaningless.
I care what you do.
You took these steps, you didthese things.

(52:52):
I don't care that you said somecomment on social media, unless
it was like some very specificincitement, threat okay, well,
that that's different, obviously, but but that stuff is less
consequential than people thinkit is and it's the intent behind
your actions and those specificactions are what give value to
anything and and those are thevaluable observations that I

(53:13):
think people need to look atit's like what steps did they
take?
How did they handle this?
You know, you know.
You know we're saying, you know, fuck you to someone.
Could be I could.
We could be doing that becausewe're friends.
We could be doing that becauseit's a joke.
We could be doing that becauseI'm angry.
We could do that because I'msad or I'm hurt, like you know
or I'm doing it just before Ipull the trigger.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
Yeah, but that's what I mean.
It's exactly it's.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
We don't, you know, we, we look at what.
Hey.
This is why everyone getsobsessed with the different
manifestos and people try topull all this shit out of it.
I'm like this is all nonsense.
When it comes out like evenlike you just read what was ted
kaczynski stuff.
I talk about the universe allthe time because he's a
brilliant mathematician.
He comes a genius mit MIT guy.
But you read his stuff andyou're like there's no

(53:55):
consistency here.
There's no, there's no threadthat you can follow.
It's all over the fucking placebecause it's maladaptive coping
mechanisms and I'm going to justpull what I think works for me
and I'm going to come up with itbecause it's about them.
It's always, always, alwaysabout them and how they were
wrong or how they're not beingheard.

(54:16):
It's not anything about whatsociety has to do or the rules
in place or the mechanisms wehave or the social norms that we
have.
Nope, that doesn't apply tothem.
You have such a sense ofentitlement like you, you, you
don't, you know what this is.
We just look at these thingswrong and and just I, I, I just
think it'd be easier to identifythese things sometimes earlier

(54:37):
on when I look for that that youknow sense of unearned
entitlement.
You know what I mean Exactly.

Speaker 2 (54:41):
So so Detroit relationship.
So I, I knew Kevorkian and andand I knew his attorney, figer,
and some of the other people.
Figer's a famous attorney.
So my, my, my, my, my, my, my,my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my,

(55:02):
my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my,my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my,
my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my,my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my,
my, my, my, my, my, my, my.
And you're sometimes with adefendant or a prosecuting
attorney or listening tosomebody's deposition, because
you're in the same place readyto go on and you hear it and
it's my suicide is going to beassisted.
Assisted suicide because I'm inpain all the time.

(55:24):
My skin hurts, my hair growingmakes me vomit, I can't sit or
move.
When I blink my eyes, theamount of ambient light causes
nausea and you feel for thesepeople.
Okay, then all of a sudden, Ican tell you of thousands of
suicide notes that I put inenvelopes and evidence bags
where I was on the scene, thefirst officer, and they read you

(55:44):
cheated on me, you caused allof this.
Well, I'm going to show you,I'm going to tell you.
You know those things that youdid.
This is how I'm going to payyou back.
And that poor person neverunderstood that all of those
actions that they did didn'tequal those words, brian.
They didn't show anybody.
And then there was the others,where the person is sitting
across from me in an interviewroom and they're saying well, I

(56:06):
knew that they would be in thebar and I walked in and, sure
enough, they were dancing withsomebody else.
So I shot them, but I ran outof ammo before I could shoot
myself.
People have a story.
It's his story, history or herstory.
We haven't gotten to that partyet I hope God we do where
people understand the etymologythere.
But the idea is that if we takea look at that, that's

(56:27):
important to a person.
Your ego system is fragile andwhat happens is some people it's
so bent on retribution thatthey can't think past that.
Yeah, you can't get past it.
I got handed a shitty hand andI can't fold it in, so I'm all
in.
And if I'm all in and thishappens, I'm going to commit
suicide.
If it's all in and this happens, I'm going to ram people on a

(56:50):
sidewalk and to me.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
But Greg, and that's why I said earlier why I call it
the easy button, Because if.
I.
You know it goes back to if Ihave something or someone to
blame, that's the cause of allof this pain physical, mental,
emotional, whatever it is.
That's easy, because then Idon't have to take the
responsibility for it.

(57:12):
It's there.

Speaker 2 (57:13):
Listen, so you remember this.
This is a personal thing.
I'm attacking you personally.
Now, in Iraq and Afghanistan,you saw body bombers and you saw
them up close and you stillhave tinnitus, or tinnitus
because of it.
Okay, many of the body bombersthat I saw explode, detonate,
conflagrate, not die.
Sometimes horrible situationsor kill other people.
Even more horrible situationswhen I was in those situations a

(57:36):
lot of time.
The research at the end of itdemonstrated that those people
were the most vulnerable peoplein our society.
They had incurable illnesses.
They were mentally ill.

Speaker 1 (57:44):
Mental health.
They were young kids, young Yep.

Speaker 2 (57:46):
And guess what they were?
They were impressionable, andso that religion or that song or
that situation that they wereexposed to made them think this
was a way that I could beremembered past my story.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
And some of them it was sort of a hero's journey
because they were guaranteedthey were given money to their
family or something like that.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
There was all of that .
So they were such a zealot thatthey bought into it.
They were vulnerable to thatbelief system.
Now, as many as there were itwasn't everybody in that town
and even in those towns that wewere in that didn't want America
and they didn't want democracyand they didn't want us walking
around they didn't becomesuicide bombers, snipers or
insider threats.
So it takes a special person totake that step.

(58:31):
And am I categorizing a suicidebomber with your husband or
daughter that committed suicide?
No, I'm not trying to say that,but I'm trying to say that that
person wanted to use a felt tipmarker and put an exclamation
mark at the end of theirsentence because they felt that
they weren't being listened to,and this was a way for them to
say are you listening?
Are you, can you hear me now?

(58:52):
And and I know how horriblethat is, brian but that's the
thing that we have to come toand look flash to bang is
different now, but it wasn't allthat different when Ben
Franklin was around.
It wasn't all that differentwhen Hammurabi was around.
So there's periods when thingsget a little bit rough that
people resort to that stuff andthen things tend to even
themselves out.
But you know what?

(59:12):
There's still that person inthe corner that's smoldering and
the fuse was lit and they'reburning and they're going to do
it, no matter what.
I mean, brian, just at the topof your mind.
Could you come up with five orsix people that you've studied
their capers extensively and youknew that that was a bad seed
man?

Speaker 1 (59:38):
They were, that fuse had been lit when they were a
kid and it was just waiting foran outlet, well and that's.
But it's so rare, thankfully.
Well, even when you see itbefore they get to that it is
rare.
But like, if you, if youhaven't been properly socialized
by the age of about seven oreight, it probably ain't fucking
happening for you.
And it's sad when you see thatwhere you're like, this person
is unlikely to survive.
Cleveland, harris mastermanipulators.

Speaker 2 (59:52):
Okay, they fooled everybody.
They fooled judge, they fooledtheir probation officer.

Speaker 1 (59:58):
Yeah, they were convicted felons.
They fooled their parentsExactly, Brian.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
So when we look that far, Bath Township, the massacre
, when we take a look at AndrewKehoe.
Brian.
He was an angry guy and sooneror later Whitman Whitman, the
Texas Tower angry angry guy.

Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
He had a voice in his head and he had an aneurysm.
But guess what?

Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
Brian, in those days it's a tumor.
If you were talking to DrSchwarzenegger, well, on that
one at least that guy was.

Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
He even wrote in his letter cut me open and see
what's going on.
But he hurt and he hurt sobadly.
He wanted to show he was right.
He literally had a brain tumor.
That's a missing case ofevidence in the calendar that
guy was innocent Brian.

Speaker 2 (01:00:38):
No but this is what we're talking about folks.
Look, brian, I'll invokeHoberman one more time, at the
very beginning of the year, on 6Jan, when this is being
recorded.
You have to take a look at the360.
You have to imagine what thatperson like.
If a person kicks off theirshoes before they go in a house,
are they a Muslim or did theyjust get new carpet?

(01:00:59):
Those things are significant tome, artifacts and evidence in
support of a reasonableconclusion, and the more
information I know, the lessanxiety I have in dealing with
other people.
Not everybody's out to kill you.
Not everybody is planning andrehearsing.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
Well, the way we do it is.
I go back to even just ourfirst principles and one of the
things is what it's?
Whether it's with a person youknow, whatever out on the street
, whether it's my wife, whetherit's my the baby, it's like okay
, what is this person teachingme?
What are they trying to teachme?
What are they like?
Don't listen to the words, theydon't matter.

(01:01:32):
What are they showing me?
What it's saying, cause likethat's helped out, I mean for
relationships up to cause that'sthat's how my wife and Kaylee
gets sometimes, where she goes alittle bit internal and when
she's dealing with a lot ofstuff, cause she doesn't want to
be effective, but but it doeseither way doing what is?
What is a little guy who's 18months old?
He's teaching me like, and he'sshowing me and he's trying to

(01:01:53):
explain.
He'd see the frustration.
So if I go through enough,we'll get like he's 18 months
old.
So there's only so much hecould be asking for, like he
doesn't know a lot.
But but think about thecontextual situation.
Like, okay, he's a high schoolkid.
What could he possibly beteaching me like?
What could he possibly need?
Or he's person in thissituation?
Well, there's only so manythings or so many outcomes to

(01:02:15):
this situation.
What?
What are they teaching me about?
About where this is going, andlike it just helps, helps you
kind of dial it in a little bit.
You know what I mean.
It helps you get rid of thisthing that don't matter.

Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
So stop the stigma with the gift of time and
distance, where you're closingyour ears because you want to
remain a white belt.
What do I mean by that?
Gifted time and distance can beused in any situation, just
like the Hoberman to avoid Jackthe surprise the Jack in the box
.
What I mean by that is there arecertain situations where I need
to close the distance quicklyto stop the event from occurring

(01:02:47):
.
I need to get in there and askthat person what are your
intentions?
Because your behavior is out ofline in this scenario.
This context isn't working forme and Brian.
That's a form of de-escalation.
And there's the other one wherewe need to distance ourselves
and remain behind cover and slowtime down.
Where are you on that space-timecontinuum?

(01:03:07):
Well, guess what?
If you're unable to read humanbehavior, you're going to be at
the right of the event, whichmeans at bang or right of bang,
and everybody that's ever readthe AAR on my training left of
bang will understand that thoseguys were operating in white
belt and yellow belt and theywere doing a good job.
But is that where you want tostay?

(01:03:27):
The gift of time and distancemeans you have to be able to
read the tea leaves.
You have to take a look at thesituation, just like determining
what the weather's liketomorrow and saying I need snow
chains or I need a jacket.
You know, when I'm at the busstation, my kid needs a hat.
Those are the type of thingsyou need to be doing every day,
and what happens is social mediahas increased our distance.

(01:03:49):
We think that news is fasterand being absorbed faster, but
we're not getting as much facetime not the type you're
thinking about with real humans,and so you have to look for
leakage differently.
We used to be able to looksomebody in the face and be able
to tell what's going on well,that's.

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
There's some writings and they're just so much more
more noise and it's happeningfaster.
So you don't you, you get.
You know everyone's talking.
You know one sentence about 20topics, rather than 20 sentences
on three topics.
You know, that's how we're.
We're wave tops only when itcomes in like that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:24):
Well, that's also why people crave yeah, people crave
longer.

Speaker 1 (01:04:28):
I mean, it's also reason why someone listens to an
hour of us talking, becausethey want to know that deeper.
You know, know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
There's nobody listening anymore.
I'm so hopeful at this point,but we know Both of us know,
brian.
There's a part of us that knowsand we're crying on the inside
folks no no, but what I'm tryingto say?
violence is a language, and sothat language, whatever the new
thing is that comes out, it'sgoing to be found there.
So if social media is a newthing that's going to stick
around for a while, it's goingto be there.

(01:04:54):
If AI Brian is the new languagethat's going to be around for a
while, guess what?
Violence will be found there,because it's a vehicle, it's a
tool, it's a way to communicate.
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:05:06):
Okay, yeah, okay, I think we covered a lot.
You know you can appreciate youexplaining in depth about what
we mean by violence as alanguage.
And I I actually becausethere's so much study about
language, which is really cool.
There's some good accounts.
Actually, I follow on socialmedia guys.
Like you know, etymology tellsyou where the different meanings
were and this came from hereand then it changed.
This is just cool.

(01:05:27):
Most we don't know most of thatstuff at least 90 something
percent of the words we even useand where they came from and
all that.
But Johnny.
But but if I look at you knowviolence as a language.
I can use sort of that likealmost communication studies are
like well, how have otherpeople studied how language has
occurred?
You know what I mean.
It puts it in a different lightversus just saying they were

(01:05:50):
inspired by or self radicalized.
I mean that's such such a.
These terms are just fuckingmeaningless.
I mean, right, I don't know,but you know it, it's just a
better way to do it.
I like that, that term, and soit's.
It's all about controlling thenarrative.

Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
So, on that, greg, I'll let you control the
narrative and give any, anyfinal words if you have them
yeah, repeat what I said if anindividual feels overwhelmed or
unable to handle a situationconstructively, then violence is
an immediate tool that they canresort to.
So, thinking of that, think ofyour desk, your room, the
hallway, the office, the parkinglot, your house, the basement

(01:06:27):
windows.
Think of all of those things inthose terms.
If you're a security person,then open that up to your client
.
If you're a security person,then open that up to your client
.
If you're a parent, open thatup to your kid's car, your kid's
room, their trash can and Brian.
That becomes a way ofassimilating information,
because in that communicationwe're going to see what that
person's aims are, where they'reheaded, and that trajectory can

(01:06:48):
tell us a lot, and that ispredictive analysis 101, and
that can increase your timedistance gap in your favor.

Speaker 1 (01:06:55):
That's it.
All.
Right, that's it.
Holy shit, I know I'm sweating,just getting through that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
So I went through a bet on this episode.
You didn't breathe once youmight want to sit back and take
a breath.
I don't think you?

Speaker 1 (01:07:06):
I don't think you've breathed the most.

Speaker 2 (01:07:08):
You know what burns my ass, Brian my gears Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:07:11):
All right, I think that's good to end on.
Thanks everyone for tuning in.
There's always more on thePatreon site, so so check us out
on there.
You can get right now.
You can still, for another weekor so, get a month free on
there if you want.
But yeah, check this out onthere.
But thanks everyone, what.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
Before we bring it to close, I'm so sorry.
Bobette's in the hospitalEverybody.
I bet she's a fan.
She listens to the episodes allthe time, her and Richard.
So shout out to her and realquick.
I apologize to take your timefor this too, but if we think of
Kevin Castle, kevin's out withthat triple knee surgery, bypass
all that other.
He and Teela listen all thetime.

(01:07:45):
So he just got out of thehospital and is on rehab.
Say a little prayer for thosefolks.
Keep them in your thoughts,folks.

Speaker 1 (01:07:52):
Yeah, that's good.