December 2, 2024 • 53 mins
In this episode of The Leadership Vision Podcast, we sit down with Anders Indset, philosopher, futurist, and author of The Viking Code. Anders shares his insights on how leaders can bridge individualism and collectivism to build high-performance cultures that are deeply rooted in shared values. Drawing inspiration from his Norwegian roots and global observations, Anders explores themes of adaptability, trust, and the role of friction in fostering progress.
This thought-provoking conversation is packed with actionable insights for leaders seeking to embrace a forward-thinking mindset, navigate complexity, and create environments where teams and organizations thrive.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
- How trust and friction drive meaningful innovation and progress.
- Why balancing individual ambition with collective success creates lasting impact.
- The importance of fostering adaptability and a generalist mindset in a rapidly changing world.
- Insights into using play and curiosity as tools for creativity and growth.
- The role of leaders in anticipating the future and embracing a culture of continuous learning.
Key Takeaways:
- Trust and Friction: These two forces are the foundation of progress. Leaders who cultivate trust while allowing healthy friction can unlock team potential and generate innovative ideas.
- Adaptability Over Specialization: In a fast-paced world, a broad “generalist” mindset allows for greater creativity and resilience in the face of change.
- Play and Curiosity: Organizations should encourage play and experimentation to stimulate creativity and develop a culture of continuous improvement.
- Future-Focused Leadership: Leaders must anticipate future trends and shift from reactive decision-making to proactive strategies that align with evolving realities.
Memorable Quotes from Anders Indset:
- “To grow as an individual or team, trust yourself first; only then can you trust others.”
- “Progress isn’t about reaching a finite goal; it’s about perfecting the next step.”
- “The organizations that thrive are those that embrace adaptability, creativity, and the unknown.”
Resources Mentioned:
- Anders Indset’s book, The Viking Code
- James P. Carse’s book Finite and Infinite Games
- Creativity, Inc. by Ed Catmull
Connect with Anders Indset:
- Website: VISIT!
- Social Media: LinkedIN,
-
Read the full blog post here!
CONTACT US
- email: connect@leadershipvisionconsulting.com
- Leadership Vision Online
ABOUT
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
If you do team sports and you relate to others, it's
a very fulfilling experience towin together and have progress
and shared positive experience.
And also, you know, losing, andI think that is also something
that appeals to me as you know,I am because you are.
You know we need like a kind ofsort of declaration of
interdependence that we signright.
(00:20):
I like that.
I like that.
That is what I write about inthe book and also that
commitment to just doing stufffor others without getting a
role or a direct reward, becauseyou just have this sense of
feeling Like back a thousandyears ago when you had the
Vikings setting out in openboats.
Everyone had a role andinspiration and you would have
(00:42):
Thor standing at the shore ofthe cold.
You thought the world was flatand you thought it was going to
end.
And he would say are you comingwith me?
And they would say where are wegoing?
I have no idea.
When are we coming back?
I have no idea.
Are we coming back?
I have no idea.
Great idea, let's go.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
You are listening to the Leadership Vision vision
podcast, our show helping youbuild positive team culture.
Our consulting firm has beendoing this work for the past 25
years so that leaders arementally engaged and emotionally
healthy.
To learn more about us and whatwe do, you can visit us on the
web atleadershipvisionconsultingcom.
Hello everyone, my name isNathan Freeberg and today, on
the Leadership Vision Podcast, Iam thrilled to share our
conversation with Anders Inset,a brilliant thinker, philosopher
(01:33):
and author of, among otherbooks, the Viking Code.
In this episode, Andersexplores how blending
individualism with collectivismcreates a high-performance
culture rooted in values,adaptability and trust.
He shares insights intobuilding meaningful progress,
not just for individuals, butalso for teams and organizations
(01:54):
striving for a future focusedmindset.
As you listen, I want you topay attention to two things here
.
Number one the power of trustand friction in driving progress
.
Anders explains how these twoforces create an environment
where innovation thrives andcollective growth happens.
Number two, the importance ofadaptability and a generalist
(02:16):
mindset In a world of rapidtechnological change.
Anders emphasizes how leaderscan succeed by fostering
creativity, play and awillingness to step into the
unknown.
So let's dive into thisabsolutely fascinating and fun
conversation.
I ended up editing not a lotout, but a good amount, as we
were just chatting and gettingto know one another.
(02:37):
It was just really afascinating conversation that we
think is going to challenge howyou think about leadership,
culture and the future.
This is a Leadership VisionPodcast, Enjoy.
So there's a sentence in Ithink it's in the introduction
of the book or the first section.
The Viking Code shows how wecan all lead more meaningful
(02:58):
lives by rejoicing in our ownsuccess while simultaneously
cheering on others to create aconscious culture of learning
and progress.
And why that jumped out to meand why I want to use that as
kind of launch off of who youare in the book, is that for our
American culture, that's kindof not the way we do things here
(03:19):
.
America is more aboutindividualistic.
You know me, how do I succeed,how do I lift myself up?
And something that we're tryingto do differently here at
Leadership Vision is say youknow, yes, and it is about me
and it's about the team, it'sabout the collective growing.
So, by way to introduce you andthe book, tell us a little bit
(03:44):
about kind of where this wholeidea came from, how the Viking
Code came out, how you evenbegan, you know, with all of the
other interests caring aboutthis topic.
I think I've given you fivequestions at once, so just grab
one, that's right, yeah, I'llplay with that.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
I was writing a book about capitalism because I think
that capitalism is the key totackle a lot of the things that
we are up to in terms of climateand you know the social
stability.
I think the incentive forchange and the driving force of
the economic is much stronger intrying to limit people.
You know the Greta Thunbergit's a lot of engagement doesn't
need to change.
(04:19):
So I was writing about that andall of a sudden I see all these
athletes coming out of my homecountry, norway, in the sports
that has nothing to do with snow, right.
So they were like soccer andtennis and golf and, yeah, the
two best, best beach volleyballplayers in the world, triathlons
, and I was like you know how isthat?
You know there is a huge globalsports and it's mainly young
(04:41):
men.
Uh, very strongly tiedrelationship to their father.
Still have a relationship totheir high school girlfriend
even so, it was like veryinteresting to see how similar
they were in many ways.
But you know my background.
As an athlete said okay, isthere some magic sauce here?
Is there like a code, likesomething that cracks in terms
of performance culture?
(05:02):
So I reached out to a coachtrainer in Norway that has
worked a lot of top athletes andwe started to dig into it and
as I started to play with this,I discovered what came to be the
topic of the book basicallyseeing that they're not only the
best at what they do asindividual athletes, but they're
also the most liked.
So they practice team play,fair play, and that, to me,
(05:24):
became like the narrative, andsee how can you unite
individualism and collectivismand how can you build a high
performance culture that isdeeply rooted in values and
that's coming out of a countrythat does not value high
performance, that has alwaysbeen built on the collective.
Then you know that was anarrative, that was the book,
and then it felt very natural tome to write the first part, as
(05:48):
you have um stated already.
Um, that is a lot about my lifeand me growing up and
autobiographical, and, and thenI move into these athletes and
they are a symbol of some ofthese things that I look at.
So, but the second part of thebook is basically what, when you
come to the part, part of theprogress, it's more of a life
philosophy.
(06:08):
So, in a world where we haveoptimized the art of being right
, an optimization society we nowdiscover today, with the
advance of AI and technology,that the optimization game is
something that technology willalways win, so you know.
So what is it that we need?
The understanding, thecollectivity, how to build
something that is bigger thanthe sum of its parts.
(06:30):
The full essence of what wecall a culture becomes the
foundation of performance.
So, as you said, the US hasbeen built on a declaration of
independence.
But in order for me to strive,there has to be someone else
that I can strive against.
So I am, because you are.
And if you look at the teamstoday, in particular in sports,
(06:52):
where you have all the data, youhave the same training, you
know path structures, everythinghas been optimized to the
outmost.
So the only thing that you haveis to figure out how can you
build like a reinforcementlearning model where the team
grows and the ones that areambitious or has the aspiration
to strive above, can rise above.
(07:13):
And then you become very clearto you that if you have an
aspiration to grow, it's betterthat you play in an environment
of people that perform at ahigher level, an environment of
people that perform at a higherlevel.
And so businesses were built onhierarchies and you're going to
move the way up the ladder bykicking off someone else.
But in today's world, where youhave almost infinite access to
(07:33):
free knowledge, every companycan be like that.
So then it comes back to whatis the essence, and that is to
have a culture where you have adynamism of progress, so that
becomes the only thing that candistinguish you and your
organization from everyone else.
So that is the part that goesaround the classic traditional
(07:56):
management, leadership thinkingand high-performance culture,
and the second part is deeplyabout what it makes for a
meaningful life.
The second part is deeply aboutwhat is it makes for a
meaningful life.
So we human beings were broughtto this world with two thumbs
and the capabilities to createtools.
So we have thought about finitesolutions and answers, but what
(08:20):
we do is basically to createbetter problems.
So we have the capacity tocreate progress, and experienced
progress is the most fulfillingthing to a human being.
And if you look at society today, where we react on an outside
world with impulses of dopamineand what have you, you are lost
your agency.
We are like philosophicalzombies, just functioning and
(08:40):
reacting, and that becomes veryexhausting.
Just functioning and reacting,and that becomes very exhausting
.
So the book is also about thatphilosophy of what you in German
would say lebendigkeit, a verypowerful word about the vitality
of life, but the word itselfhas five, six different words in
English baked into it.
It's the very essence of whatit means to be a mensch, a human
(09:03):
being, to be active and livelyand to grow and experience your
progress.
So I think it's a book is.
It's a simple read, but it's adeep book, philosophically
speaking, about the challengesof our time.
So with that I've alsointroduced a lot of what I stand
for and who I am.
So that's the Viking Code in ashort, brief introduction for
(09:24):
you.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
Based on the assistant sitting.
Next, a short, briefintroduction for you, based on
the assistant sitting next toyou.
Like, is this part of yourlegacy as well?
Like sometimes, when we put ourwords out into the world, or
our sentiments or the thingsthat you value, do you see this
as part of the message you'retrying to extend into the world?
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
This is the quickest book,fastest book that I've ever
written and to me it's like avery accessible book to a very
broad audience.
And it's also my first officialbook that is published in the
US.
So it's for me also to enter amarket where I think today that,
seeing the division in the USand how we live, you can go to a
(10:08):
game and have a deep sense ofpatriotism and collectivism.
And when you saw Tim Walz comeout all of a sudden out of
nowhere, he was appealing to alot that people could relate to
the communes and thecollectivism.
And so I think I wouldn't saythat this is my legacy, because
I'm very, very tightly tied toconsciousness and what it means
(10:32):
to be human in relation totechnology, which is a much more
complex topic.
But I think that a part of thatis what I hold to be a
self-evident truth for us humanbeings is that we are born to
create, we are born to advance,we are born to experience our
own experiences, and that meansyou know, if you are thrown back
(10:56):
or something happens, you startat a new point, but from that
point it's all about progress.
So all we have is an infinitecapability to come up with
better explanation or to moveonwards, and the sense of being
is to experience that journey,which is obviously also very
philosophical in an Eastern term, but very simple in terms of
(11:18):
saying that if I experiencegrowth, if I experience
something that I advance thenext step when you run the
marathon or triathlon, it's notabout the goal, the finite goal,
it's about that perfection ofthe next steps and all these
small steps that you experiencecompounds into records and money
and fortune and fame, but thatis something that can never be
(11:41):
the part of your life becausethat's a finitude of goal
setting and it can only be partof a bigger journey, and I think
that's about progress.
So you are, in some sense, itis a legacy, but I think there
is much more depth to this, interms of technology and
consciousness, obviously.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Thank you for the answer, wow.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Andrew, something is sticking in my head from what
you from where you started.
Thank you for the answer.
Wow, your original questionabout what makes these
individuals unique and you'retalking about the relationships
they have with coaches, pastgirlfriends, expertise in their,
their sport.
How does that translate intoanother person's context where
(12:37):
they're not experts at a sport?
How do you connect it back tothose shaping relationships at a
time in someone's life wheretheir brain is going through a
formative phase, where that thephysicality, the intellection,
the relationality is like reallygetting a grip on someone's
life.
That's going to have lastingimpact for decades to come.
(12:59):
Was there a question there?
Speaker 1 (13:01):
it's at the right moment when it's all happening
no, and I I mean yourrelatability, that right, and
and I think that is a very goodquestion.
It's a very good topic because,um, the expertise is something
that we have always strived forright.
We build a knowledge society ofabsolutisms.
We said this is, this is what Ihold to be true.
(13:23):
This is the right way.
It's a very binary way ofthinking, and we have started to
communicate like that by socialmedia.
We have thumbs up, thumbs down.
There's an instantgratification, instant reaction,
and there is no depth andreflection.
So what I write about in thebook is how to build a large
toolbox.
I state this as living in theera of generalists.
(13:45):
None of us know what kind ofjobs there will be in 10 years
from now, let alone how thesports will develop.
So you have to be in a placewhere you can adapt to new
circumstances and the complexityand the speed requires for you
to have a broad toolbox.
If you have that, in anintellectual sense, you could
(14:07):
see patterns.
You could, you know, go moretowards a first principle
thinking and ask the rightquestions.
So, instead of finding theperfect answer to the wrong
question, you could actuallycome up with something that is
from that kind of you know,having that broad toolbox.
And coming back to that, whatyou're related to in sport,
there are two models.
(14:28):
Right, there is the hardcoreput the kids with four years on
a specialization camp, and manyhave tried to adapt this model.
It works in the favelas inBrazil because there's a million
young boys playing soccer sevenhours a day.
Right, it works at Barcelonabecause they have thousands of
boys wanting to get in.
(14:48):
It does not work in Røros, inmy hometown in Norway, with
3,500 people and minus 40degrees in the wintertime and
you're going to play soccerthere.
It's going to be freaking coldand a lot of snow, so you need
to have like.
So I was forced to.
I wasn't forced, I liked it, Ireally did.
I did biathlon, cross-countryskiing, soccer, everything,
because if I didn't show up forthe other ones, they wouldn't
(15:11):
come to my team game, right?
So I developed that broadtoolbox and that has been a
model for all these athletes.
They were very, very diverse intheir focus and only like 16,
17, 18, they start to specialize.
And I think this is veryrelatable today, where we have
this almost infinite free accessto perfect knowledge perfect in
(15:33):
the sense of the best that acomputer can validate today, and
if we discover that it's wrong,we're going to correct it and
it's going to be right for therest of eternity.
And that way, I think, you know, being a generalist is that
much more powerful.
So we are less experts and more, I would say, professional
amateurs.
(15:54):
You know, we work hard, wecarry a beginner's mind, we are
learners, shouzen, as they wouldsay in Zen Buddhism.
So that is more the.
I would say, like the tensionof our time, that this has
changed a little bit.
But by all the respect thereare, you know, value in
specialization and the messes inthe Ronaldos and all these
(16:14):
superstars.
They will have a job in future,but for everyone else it's
probably more of having thatadaptability, right.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Okay, so you have now mentioned either mindfulness
and spirituality three times, soI want to now ask um?
What's the connection there?
What is your insight on thatdimension of awareness awakening
, accessibility of the, thespiritual, um meditative,
mindful part of the book, orjust what you're talking about
(16:45):
in general?
Speaker 1 (16:46):
no, I, I get that a lot and um, I, I cannot, um, I
cannot relate to that in thesame sense as a very spiritual
human being.
Okay, I cannot relate to thatum, um with people that have
gone down a deep path ofmeditation.
I cannot relate to that in thatsense of the word spiritual.
(17:09):
I am by, I think, by nature aperson of philosophical
contemplation.
I don't need a category or afirm ground to stand on.
I know enough about thestructures of our physical
perceived reality throughquantum physics to understand
that that's not to the fullextent explicable.
(17:30):
We don't know, and the same goesfor the realm of spiritualism,
various type of spiritualjourneys that people have been
on, and the same goes forreligion and belief.
I think many people needsomething to hold on to and a
category of something, but Idon't and I've talked about this
(17:51):
in the past that when I've goneoff stages where I've put in a
lot of energy and spoken tothousands of people, some people
come up to me that are veryspiritual per their own
definition or have gone throughsome terrible things in life.
They come to me and they say Ifeel your energy and there are
times where I have like thatenergy, but if I'm exhausted I'm
(18:12):
more of a perfect ai, because II would say the right thing,
but I don't really feel that.
So I cannot always relate to it.
I don't think this makes sense,but but and that, um, it's not
that I'm doing something onpurpose, deliberately, but what
happens with me then?
It makes me question the wholeessence of this spiritual or
(18:35):
energetic.
Because if you can put an AIthat you would relate to as if
very spiritual, then it's veryhard for me to relate.
So it's when my cognitive brainis saying someone come to me
and you say you're very mindfulawareness, I don't know.
It feels like something talkinginto this computer, right, but
where am I on that journey?
(18:55):
I have really no idea, and thatis why this question is
wonderful and beautiful, butit's also very difficult to
unpack because I see it from allthese different directions,
from the, you know, as I said,the religious part and the
physical part.
I don't know if that makessense to you, but this is like
how I've been dancing aroundthose various disciplines.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
No, it does make sense to me and I love your
perspective because your posturein your explanation I'm hearing
a posture of how you're awareof a reality and then also being
able to say where am I on that,not certain.
(19:44):
I also think that people don'tfeel the permission to be able
to say that because, like you'vementioned earlier, in a binary
world where we feel like we'reforced to make a choice on one
side or the other and we feellike there is a side or another
side, you're standing kind of inin this middle section saying
there can be a reality thatexists here, and I feel that
that philosophy is also part ofyour perspective that you're
bringing through the book isthere's another way to stand
(20:06):
with, like, stand with my talent, stand with the people that are
around me and being able toaccept how it is that we're
showing up without any lack ofexpression or the need for an
extended experience of somethingor to be able to grow in
someone's expertise.
So it's not that you'resettling for anything.
(20:27):
It's a very unique position tobe in.
I really mean it.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
To me, the part of learning is the foundation.
It's beautiful, I'm privileged.
So I was a professional athlete, I built my companies, but I
never experienced success.
Today I can say I'm reallysuccessful to myself for me,
right?
Because I'm privileged to getup in the morning every day and
learn.
So of course I have an ego, ofcourse I relate to that, but I'm
(20:54):
also.
I recently published a paper onthe simulation hypothesis
together with three quantumphysicists and they said try to
prove to me that we are notliving in a simulation.
That's not the same claim assaying I'm confident we are, but
it turns out it's almostimpossible to figure out based
on modern physics.
And try to prove that we arenot living in a simulation.
(21:18):
And the same goes formonotheisms.
Okay, if there are multiple.
Goes for monotheism If thereare multiple monotheistic
categories.
I'm an agnostic atheist, youknow.
Gather up and agree on one andI'm open for that explanation or
that experience, right.
(21:38):
So it's just that if you listento someone like Donald Hoffman
explain that consciousness isthe foundation and reality
emerges out of that, you knowI'm not saying reality.
I mean I'm definitely on theside of saying reality is not
how we perceive it, but itdoesn't take away what David
Chalmers also refers to as thehard problem of consciousness.
It doesn't take away the actualexperience of the experience.
(21:58):
No one can take away thesubjective experience that I
have talking to you, regardlessof if you're conscious and
whatever.
That is right.
So it is also to that extentthat it's even more complex.
It's that I don't even needreality to that extent to stand
on, but I experience that, Itake it for granted.
(22:20):
So it's a glass.
I know quantum, physicallyspeaking, it's waves and
energies, and we have no ideahow it gets together.
But I take it as a glass and Idrink out of it and relate to
that.
I didn't go about and try to tosuck it in and learn and that's
.
I think that's the beauty of ofof life.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, I feel like I should be smoking a pipe
listening, smoking a pipe,listening to you in like a yeah,
I appreciate your perspectiveyeah, I love it.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yeah, I'm not a smoker, but yeah, too many.
That was like the one, the onethe long, one the long pipe, the
gandalf pipe, really going?
I had that.
I came off a leadershipconference yesterday and there's
one of norway's I think she'smost one of the most funny
people in norway.
She's like very you know withher words and how she plays
around and after my closingkeynote she came over to me and
(23:12):
said I'm, I would be kind of um,some kind of um, what you call
it like some kind of leader of a, like a, um, a clan or
something like a cult cult yeah,like a cult leader.
And she looked into my eyes andsaid I want to join your cult
I'm just, I'm just talking outwhat I'm thinking, yeah, of
(23:32):
course, yeah, so so bring up thepipe, bring out the pipe,
exactly and you're, you'regiving other people freedom.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
then because I, because I hear you, not us I
hear you inviting us to considersome of your ideas and
philosophies and I just Iappreciate that.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
I want to ask you about the part where we talk
back to this binary thing, thepart of the collective community
, like we're being a collectivevolunteer, being a part of
something bigger than yourselfyourself.
That seems to be a message wedon't hear often enough, from my
perspective.
Do you care to like to to addsome dimension to what it is
(24:14):
that you're speaking about inyour book around that?
Speaker 1 (24:17):
yeah, I mean, if you can, you can go back to.
I talked about, like the, thespiritual movements, and also
religion.
You have, like the church where, where you go in there and
regardless of what you think isplausible and relatable, you let
the ego out the door.
You're a part of rituals andyou're a part of something where
you detach yourself from.
(24:38):
You're not going to sit down ifyou're in a church and they're
singing the songs, right, you'renot going to go and take that
agency back and do somethingelse.
So you're part of somethingbigger.
And I remember, you know, in myhometown and I had not very
strong relation to religion, buton Christmas Eve we all go to
this church and sing Christmascarol.
(24:59):
Sing Christmas carol and it'sone of the most beautiful
experiences where everyone isthere, everyone is together
singing the same song,regardless of you know the
meaning and the words andwhatever.
It's just that part of thatexperience and it gives you like
a liveliness and a vitality andrelatability to other people.
So that's one part of it.
(25:21):
The other part is, you know, ifyou do team sports and you
relate to others, it's a veryfulfilling experience to win
together and have progress andshared positive experience and
also, you know, losing, and Ithink that is also something
that appeals to me.
As I said in the beginning, youknow I am because you are.
You know we need like a kind ofsort of declaration of
(25:44):
interdependence that we sign.
Right, I can only I like thatthat is what I write about in in
the book and also thatcommitment to just doing stuff
for others without getting arole or a direct reward, because
you just have the sense offeeling like back thousand years
ago where you had the vikingsetting out in open boats,
everyone had a role andinspiration, and you just have
the sense of feeling like back athousand years ago where you
had the viking setting out inopen boats, everyone had a role
(26:07):
and inspiration, and you wouldhave, like thor, standing at the
shore of the coast, you thoughtthe world was flat and you
thought it was going to end.
And and he would say, are youcoming with me?
And they would say like, whereare they going?
I have no idea.
Whenever they're coming back, Ihave no idea.
Are we coming back?
I have no idea.
When are we coming back?
I have no idea.
Are we coming back?
I have no idea.
Great idea, let's go.
That was the all-in belief ininspiration, collectivism and
(26:30):
exploration, and I think thereis something beautiful in that,
where you experience that senseof being and being a part of
something.
Sense of being and being a partof something and, um, yeah, I
think it's a, it's an importantpart of us as a, as a humanities
, in terms of, in particular, intoday's society where, um, we
(26:53):
are more detached, um, you know,the number of friends we have
is going down.
A lot of young men arestruggling with loneliness and
you have a loneliness pandemic,even like kind of sort of seems
like, and I think that that thatis the answer to that.
And as technology advances, youknow, probably that will
increase and and therefore Ithink, the collective, the, even
(27:14):
the rituals, or how has thisvery strong place in society?
Speaker 3 (27:19):
I, I'm I'm curious I mean, this is a practical
question and I'll get there thekind of second half of your book
when you're talking about, like, the quantum economy, and you
talk about education andpolitics, and it's all infused
with this idea of centering onhumanity's potential for
(27:42):
creativity, adaptability, youknow, more responsibility, the
idea of doing good for the mostnumber, you know for a lot of
people.
And I'm wondering, you know, inyour leadership, talk, your
keynotes and conferences, how doyou, or how do we and this is a
part where I'm not quite surewhere my question is but how do
(28:03):
we sort of because that is anentire cultural shift in mindset
how do we begin to get peoplethat are, you know, so glued to
their phones, that dopamine hitthat you talked about, the, you
know, the stressed out leader,the stressed out parent, the
person who is like I got to lookout for myself the idea and I
think this is where Dugnag comesin here, if I'm saying that
(28:24):
right how do we start to doesthis make sense?
What I'm asking, what I'mtrying to ask how do we sort of
get to that where we canactually put some of these ideas
into practice and actuallychange our families, change our
schools, change our communities,change our businesses.
To be a more collective minded.
You know, let's all do goodtogether.
(28:45):
Yeah, like what's?
Give me three quick ways to dothat and then we'll move on yeah
, that is.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
That is where it becomes alice in talking to me,
right, because it needs somekind of substance and uh, but no
but um, the obvious one and theslow one is education.
Yeah, I love that chapter inthere.
Yeah, so we have taught whatyou should think and not how to
think.
So, going back to the streetsof Agora in ancient Greek, it's
(29:15):
about that collaboration,co-creation, the dialogue and
it's not about because today weare connected I mean, we're not
like physically connected to thedevices, but we have infinite
access to knowledge just at thetip of our hands, but we never
look it up.
So we go about and talk a lotof BS and read headlines and
(29:36):
media, but we could actuallyvalidate it in real time.
Imagine a Google or an AppleVision Pro or a glass where you
have an instant validationagainst an LLM when you talk.
So everything that comes out ofyour mouth is in instant time
validated and everything you seeis perceived and explained at
(29:59):
the best LLM.
So we have perfect knowledge.
If it's incorrect in thelanguage model, it will be fixed
from humanity because we agreeupon the right answer.
So you only have wrong one timeright, and that would be a
model where you would be talkingand you'd be lighting red on
the sender and the receiver.
It makes no sense to lie.
(30:21):
So what happens then?
Right, and that's why I thinkAI could be a source forcing us
to learn how to think.
So that would be a beautifuldevelopment if we could stay
there.
So education is very much afoundation.
The other part I would mentionis if a company today
(30:44):
understands that change andprogress is all we have, because
otherwise we would be replacedby someone that can do it more
efficient, then we have tofigure out what does change mean
?
Where does it come from?
So certainly it does not comefrom two people having opposite
opinions and never agreed to dosomething new.
So that's like a left right,black, white, zero, one binary
(31:07):
way.
That will not cause progress.
You have two people holding onto their self-evident truth.
So we had this place in theorganization prior to the
pandemic.
It was a trillion dollarindustry.
It was called the coffeemachine coffee place.
So what happened there?
People that worked in the samecompany had a base trust in each
(31:30):
other because they were in aphysical space and they figured
out how to navigate and getalong.
There were awkward moments,days that were difficult.
But you bumped into thesepeople and could talk outside of
Zoom sessions and figure thatout.
People bumped into each otherthat had never spoken and
started to talk about ideas.
(31:51):
So the two forces of change, Ibelieve, are trust and friction.
You cannot trust, you know, youcannot speak openly about your
opinion If you trust yourself.
You can listen to someone else,you can get into that dance and
maybe tap into the unknown orfind some way to navigate.
(32:11):
And if you don't have friction,you will never have something
new.
And if you have an absolutism,you will just have division, and
that is what we're seeing intoday's society have division,
and that is what we're seeing intoday's society.
So this just becomes a challengefor an organization to first
build trust.
So how do you do that?
I mean the first essence ofbuilding trust is to start to
(32:32):
train to trust yourself.
If I trust myself, only thencan I trust other people.
So training on self-trustbecomes then the leadership
mission right.
Training on self-trust becausebecomes then the leadership
mission right.
So building trust to you istherefore also a part of that
part.
But what makes you a leader?
And that is tapping into yourvulnerability.
You know the things,understanding that you know.
(32:55):
When you have people around,you know a lot more than you.
Then you can dance with them,right as in comparisons to being
a manager and hierarchicalstructure where you tell
everyone what to do, what tothink and how to act, and that
model, I think, is rock dead.
Um, that's a model fortechnology, uh.
So I think that two topics likethe one, education and the
(33:18):
other one, uh, built trust andfriction where companies
understand that, oh, we can onlymake money if we have progress.
Those forces are pretty strongbecause companies want to excel
in advance and take market shareand, in an educational
perspective, we will just get.
That makes no sense teachingkids about how to save data for
(33:40):
an hour and to get a grade andget a role and be an expert for
a job that doesn't exist infuture.
Speaker 4 (33:45):
Well, when you speak about trust and friction, I
can't help but all the lessonswe learned on the playground,
and this would be a great entrypoint.
I would love to hear some ofyour perspective on play, the
risk involved, the opportunityfor, I think, humans to
experience change.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
But tell us from your perspective.
Talk to us about play, to add.
I love that that chapter isjoyful joyful from the
cultivation of play to themastery of the game.
I love that those two ideas areconnected.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Yes, I think so, and I wrote about this in my quantum
economy book, and Simon Sinekhas also written there a book on
this topic, the Infinite Game,where we distinguish between
infinite games and finite games.
Inspired by a theologist, jamesP Carr's 1984, I think his book
, and that was the inspirationthat Simon Sinek so beautifully
(34:40):
put into his book and obviouslygot all the credits for it.
But it's a logical concept, avery thin book that is about
play and many of us don't knowthat and it's very interesting
to see that from a theologistthat goes into that
philosophical dance right.
So I think one thing is the funpart, the playful part.
I always say you know, if youstop playing you're risk growing
(35:01):
up.
You know everything becomes,you know, too serious.
But kids see that they don'twant to have playgrounds where
everything is secured up andregulated.
You know they want to go intothe woods and the forest and
play around.
Or, you know, even to someplace, a rural place, where you
can just do things.
That was how it used to be.
You know, get up, get out, out,put on the clothes, regardless
(35:24):
of weather, just get out innature and play around, and even
there.
We have now put it into a systemwhere everything has a rule and
a regulated part and a securedpart and everything, and that
becomes like borders ofexistence.
It takes away a lot ofexploration and you have many
organizations today that spend alot of time teaching people how
to be creative, and I thinkthat's awkward.
(35:46):
Why don't we just stop trainingthat out of human beings?
I have never seen a toddler whois not explorative, active and
creative.
They're all born naturally withthe empty storage and we want
to navigate.
So the problem is not that wedon't train enough creativity.
The problem is we train it outof it, through our educational
(36:07):
model, through kindergarten,through regulation, through
rules and all that, and we putpeople into boxes and categories
and then we optimize thecategory and then we realize
that technology is much betterat this category because the
more we have written down, themore we have defined the rules,
better ai and technology is thatdoing it.
That's why everyone was sosurprised that all of a sudden
(36:29):
you know the lawyers and theconsultants, and even in
medicine.
That's that I came after thesejobs.
Yeah, and that's isn't thatobvious.
That's where we have the mostprecise data right, more the
most clear rules, and that's thebest thing technology can have.
So I think when we realize thatthere is a lot of potentiality
(36:50):
to tap into that playful partand that joyful joyful as you
referred to- have you everslight tangent?
Speaker 3 (36:57):
have you ever taken your kids to Wow Park in Denmark
?
To what?
To Wow Park in Denmark?
Wow Park, do you know what?
Speaker 1 (37:03):
that is no, I don't know.
I have.
I've been to the legal land andthrough denmark and everything,
but I don't know what you referto as a wow it's called wow
park.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
It's in bill and it's essentially this.
We went there with our family.
It's this gigantic outdoor.
I don't know if I would call ita playground.
It's all of these, uh, rope,swings and bridges.
It doesn't feel safe is whereI'm going with it.
It is, but compared to a US andAmerican playground or park,
there's an element of risk and Ithink why our family loved it
(37:34):
so much is because the kids justkind of went free and there was
this element of a little bit ofrisk, a lot, a lot of play, and
it was fascinating.
I looked into a little bit moreand I guess I of play and it
was fascinating.
I looked into a little bit moreand I guess I don't know if
this is danish or like all ofscandinavia but that whole
element of uh, because in the us, you know, they've gotten rid
of all of the like woodenplaygrounds and and they're so,
(37:55):
um, just sterilized where thekids don't like playing on them
anymore.
Um, so how do you?
How?
Speaker 1 (38:00):
do you write that?
How do you?
I mean, because that was.
This is something like Climbingparks, where you climb up, high
up in the trees in balance,you're secure, but it's like a
different type of playground.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
It's kind of like that I'll put the link In the
chat.
Can I do that?
Where's the chat here?
I was trying to.
I'll email it to you.
It is absolutely amazing.
There's this um, and now we'rereally off on a tangent no, this
is that's good, this isbeautiful.
This is a good conversation,it's so it was so much fun, but
(38:31):
it like, as you were talking, Iwas like wait a second, that's
exactly what, what we did thereand again, the reason I bring it
up is because I think sometimesin business and leadership we
put so many guardrails on anylevels of risk that play is
removed, that any sort of danger, because we want the sure thing
, we want the guarantee we don'twant, you know, creativity just
(38:53):
within these two lines.
And so if we can go back tosome of those ideas of you know,
imaginative play, curiosity, Ithink you say in the book you
know the importance ofstimulating curiosity.
How, again, in your work, howdo you do that?
Or how do you encourage peopleto have more of that play?
Speaker 1 (39:12):
You touched on it a little bit but yeah, for me it's
easy because I don't have allthese boundaries and ruptures
that I have to relate to.
So I am a very I'm a nerd interms of you know math and
programming, I used to writecode and all that.
So I like a plausibleexplanation, I like a factual,
(39:32):
but I'm also creative in termsof I like to play the free piano
and write, so I don't have allthese boundaries that I have to
relate to.
That's just an advantage interms of not relating to
structure.
So what I think is that, if youcould see, in Germany in
particular, they have taken upthis notion of creating a
(39:52):
failure culture.
So you cope with failure, and Iget the aspect and the essence
of that, but I think this is thewrong way of looking at it.
So we don't want to have afailure culture.
It's when, if you lose, it'snot about celebrating losing,
it's not about like it's itshould.
It shouldn't feel right to lose, but as long as the drive to
(40:15):
win and you know it's stronger,you will always continue.
So you want to have anincentive for change, you want
to have that light um, you knowto move on.
But then there are times whereyou know failure culture becomes
something that you know.
You wouldn't have a failureculture doctor doing an open
(40:36):
heart surgery.
You wouldn't have a pilottrained on failure culture.
It just has to function right.
So you have that finite gamewhere you win or lose and you
play.
But when you play on that gameyou play at the expert level.
Everything has to function andwork.
But then, if you have in sport,you have the playing ground,
(40:57):
you play through the trainingpitch where you go beyond, you
try something new, and I thinkthis is where organization can
learn from sport.
Also, when are you doing thegame where you have to deliver?
You know when is it, you knowagility and you need high
stability, secure processes.
You want to speed up.
(41:17):
Everything has to functionright and then you need some
time where you can go beyond,where you can play around, and
one company that I I rememberreading early and I've reread
the book a couple of times tofunction right.
And then you need some timewhere you can go beyond, where
you can play around, and onecompany that I remember reading
early and I reread the book acouple of times it's one of my
favorite on this topic is by EdCatmull and Pixar Inc.
Yeah, where, how they builtPixar inspired by the Disney
vision and talk about plussingand adding to it, and how that
(41:41):
really high-performance culturethat is also built on
playfulness and that's like withSteve Jobs and Ed Catmull.
I think that's a very good bookon the topic.
But I always like todistinguish between when there's
no room for playfulness orfailure.
There are things where it hasto just function right and then
(42:02):
there are parts where you wantto learn and adapt and move on
and tap into the unknown.
And where is your trainingpitch?
Where is your training groundin your organization?
When are you doing that,pushing for that right?
That's my question on thattopic.
Speaker 4 (42:17):
Yeah, I love that we were working with an
organization the top 40 leadersof this org and the leader said,
in this room right now, as weare together in this quarterly
meeting, this is where we canfail, because this is where we
can practice.
There are no eyes on us in thisroom, so let's risk.
(42:37):
And she invited the group toplay, and that's why it's not
just like playing Can you pushme on a swing or can I go down a
slide or climb something?
But it's this, um, we like tocall play practice in disguise
where we're deliberatelypracticing something that then
(42:58):
will lead to when it's game time.
We've worked out those kinks,we've unlearned the things that
we need to unlearn and thethings that we need to unlearn
and are able to to step intothose others.
So I I appreciate yoursentiments on that as well.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
It's good, yeah, thank you just a short note in
that letter.
You already got before with theinvitation to think or the
questions, right?
So so I, I don't think you know.
If you're postulating facts,you are not open to the other.
So you know I, I don't thinkyou know I'm.
Whatever I read or know, I don'twant to teach people what to do
or how to do and what to think,but, but I want to teach them
(43:32):
how to think.
You know to think for himself.
You know I'm just thinking outloud and if that resonates, I
want to learn.
So I want to have friction, Iwant to have opinions and I
think, if you invite that in aboardroom, that is very healthy.
So, even though you might havea strong opinion, you first want
to hear everyone out and you'reopen to their ideas right,
because if you, as a leader,take a strong claim on something
(43:55):
, they're not going to follow.
But first I want to heareveryone else's idea, right, and
then I can come back toexplaining how I think it might
be in a different way, or I seeit like that how do you think
about that?
And that gets the best out ofpeople.
That gets the progress partgoing.
I think that's right, that'sright, very important part yeah
oh, so good is there.
Speaker 4 (44:14):
Okay, we, uh, this is flown by we're um clock, we
gotta is there any?
Is there any question that wecan ask you that that could just
set set you up that maybe inthis conversation with us, your
imagination is kind of going?
Is there any question that wecan ask you to pull something
out of you or give you aplatform to speak, something
(44:35):
that you haven't yet?
Speaker 3 (44:36):
Anything to set up a final thought that you want to
leave us with.
Speaker 4 (44:40):
What can we ask you?
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Yeah, I think that's a very good question.
I mean, that's that.
That just set me up right there.
Speaker 4 (44:51):
So that's all, I think.
What are the questions?
Speaker 1 (44:54):
that's the best question you could ask.
No, I think.
Yeah, no, but but asking aboutthe implications of technology.
So what is the most neededleadership skill today?
It is to anticipate future andto anticipate plausible future
scenarios, and we're not good atthat.
(45:15):
We have 80 years of exponentialtechnologies and I always ask
leaders I say do you think wewill go back and play Snake on
our Nokiaia 5110?
Speaker 3 (45:26):
that's a great game, but yeah yeah, no, no.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
All due respect, there are many great games in
the past, but but do you thinkwe will go there?
You are thinking we haveprogress and everyone said, yeah
, progress.
Do you think we'll speed up?
Yes, so that, but why are youacting based on research of the
past, then why are you notprojecting into the future?
If the battery cost of anelectric vehicle has dropped 90%
(45:53):
in the past 10 years, do youthink the battery will be
slightly better in 10 years orworse?
Speaker 2 (46:03):
Slightly better.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
So it's very interesting and you think about
Volkswagen in Germany that areholding on to gasoline and
diesel driven cars, so fossilfuel vehicles.
And it's not about you know theideology and the climate debate
.
It's not about you know theideology and the climate debate.
It's just a simple truth thatas of 2025, a fossil fuel car
(46:29):
will not be competitive for manyreasons.
One is that a fossil fuel carhas 2,000 parts and an electric
vehicle has 10 parts.
Which car do you think willcause more issues in terms of
service and you know.
The other one is, regardless ofhow efficient you are with
(46:50):
fossil fuel, you have totransport it to an area where
you fill it up, as, incomparison, just sucking the sun
out of the sky that you can doall over the world.
You will see now, today, thatan electric vehicle can fuel
your house for three days withenergy.
So it means if you can chargeyour car, you can have energy
(47:14):
for your house.
All right, so in Michigan andIdaho and in Sweden they are
building induction street.
Induction streets are where youload while driving.
Right, oh yeah, walmart, takeall these huge spaces that you
have in the us.
If all of them has solar panelson the roof, they will have an
(47:37):
overproduction of energy most ofthe year.
With today's technology, how doyou think it will be in five to
10 years from now?
So they will say, okay, what dowe do with all this extra
energy?
Well, they give it to thepeople that come and buy stuff.
So you take your electric car,you have a supercharger, you go
and buy your groceries, you comeout, your car is fully loaded,
(47:58):
you drive it back home, you plugin your house and you have free
energy.
Hmm, that is a scenario that is, technologically speaking, in a
very near future.
It is all about storage anddistribution and execution, and
do you think we will figure thatout?
I think so.
So this is when everyone comesto a conclusion and say that
(48:21):
okay, so that means that we willhave probably literally
infinite access to almost freeenergy.
And when I say free energy, themarginal cost of energy Even
today, the next kilowatt hour ofenergy, when you have that
green energy, is literally free.
And the challenge here is thatit will not be about
(48:42):
sustainability, it will be aboutefficiency.
If you don't use resourcesefficient in your company, it's
not about being sustainable andgreen and ideology and saving
the planet.
Then it becomes something else.
It becomes the essence ofmaking money.
Our sustainability will slowlyfade out of our vocabulary
(49:03):
because in 10 years from now, ifyou're not efficient, you will
not have EBIT, you will not makemoney, and the ones that get
that amongst them are theChinese.
So if you have a competitiveenvironment where they speed up
all these green energy and thebattery evolution, what have you
not?
What will follow?
Market economy?
So this is the last thought onthat topic.
(49:25):
This is one example of thingsthat will happen.
I could do the same for financeand health and a lot of
industry.
But it's very simple If youjust think about a technology,
you predict a slight increaseand the investment and the
impact of the current investmentand the exponential curve, you
could project pretty much whatthe scenario will be in 10 years
(49:47):
.
And leaders are not good atthat.
They react and they don'treflect.
That's the biggest challenge toanticipate plausible future
scenarios.
You say to me, anders, you haveprovocative ideas.
I say no, I have really stupid,boring ideas I haven't thought
about them and you're justsaying them out loud.
Speaker 4 (50:05):
I love that.
Yes, you're saying them outloud, well.
Speaker 3 (50:08):
Anders, thank you so much.
This has just flown by.
I really appreciate not onlythe book but just all the
thinking around it and thedifferent ideas that I feel like
are so applicable to so manydifferent areas of life.
So, thank you so much.
Appreciate it, brian Linda.
Any final thanks?
Speaker 2 (50:27):
No, this has been phenomenal.
So thank you so much for theconversation.
What I really enjoy is theguests we have in our podcast.
That and this is important frommy perspective it's clear
they've done the hard work Likethey've done and continue to do
the wrestling with whatevertheir content is to make it
(50:49):
accessible to other people.
From an athletic point of view,you're always making progress
through the practice and throughthe iteration of what it means
to be an athlete, to watch youtake the knowledge you have,
continue to work through what itis so that it can be accessible
to other people.
I think that's phenomenal,especially when someone can take
(51:11):
complex thoughts and break themdown for us to agitate our
thinking.
Because from just how you endedthere with the need for leaders
to be not just focused on thefuture but leaning into a future
specific mindset, I know fromour work that's not a practice
that we find very often wherethere's a leader that's stuck
(51:34):
leaning forward.
That part that you said aboutstudying the past, like why
would you do that?
That just makes so much senseto me because it's rare that you
have that future-leaning leader.
So I really appreciate yourapproach, the strength with
which you are wrestling withthese topics and the invitation
(51:55):
for us to lead with that morefuturistic lean.
Speaker 4 (51:57):
Yeah, thank you so much for being with us.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Brian Nate and Linda.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (52:03):
Another big thank you to Anders Insett for taking the
time to chat with us.
Brian, nathan, linda, thank youso much for having me.
Another big thank you to AndersInsett for taking the time to
chat with us.
It was such a fascinating andfun conversation.
He's an interesting guy.
He is one of the most uniquepeople, I think well, we've ever
interviewed on the podcast andthere are links to his book and
some of his other his websiteand some of his other stuff that
he's done and is a part of inthe show notes and the
(52:25):
accompanying blog post for this.
I just love his diversity ofthought.
We didn't even get into some ofhis stuff on, like the quantum
economy and some of that stuff.
He has a new book coming out.
I don't know when in relationto when this is going live, but
around something they did with abunch of physicists and astro
(52:45):
and it's just.
It's just.
It's way above my head.
So anyway, thank you forlistening to the Leadership
Vision Podcast.
Go check out Anders Insett andall of his just amazing work and
stuff that he's doing withleaders.
You can subscribe to ourpodcast if you found value from
this, but I think what we wouldappreciate even more is just
sharing it with someone that youthink would benefit from
building a stronger culture intheir organization.
(53:09):
You can visit us on the web atleadershipvisionconsultingcom,
follow us on the socials, allthat stuff.
Blah, blah, blah.
My name is Nathan Freeberg and,on behalf of our entire team,
thanks for listening.
If you do team sports and you relate to others, it's
a very fulfilling experience towin together and have progress
and shared positive experience.
And also, you know, losing, andI think that is also something
that appeals to me as you know,I am because you are.
You know we need like a kind ofsort of declaration of
interdependence that we signright.
(00:20):
I like that.
I like that.
That is what I write about inthe book and also that
commitment to just doing stufffor others without getting a
role or a direct reward, becauseyou just have this sense of
feeling Like back a thousandyears ago when you had the
Vikings setting out in openboats.
Everyone had a role andinspiration and you would have
(00:42):
Thor standing at the shore ofthe cold.
You thought the world was flatand you thought it was going to
end.
And he would say are you comingwith me?
And they would say where are wegoing?
I have no idea.
When are we coming back?
I have no idea.
Are we coming back?
I have no idea.
Great idea, let's go.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
You are listening to the Leadership Vision vision
podcast, our show helping youbuild positive team culture.
Our consulting firm has beendoing this work for the past 25
years so that leaders arementally engaged and emotionally
healthy.
To learn more about us and whatwe do, you can visit us on the
web atleadershipvisionconsultingcom.
Hello everyone, my name isNathan Freeberg and today, on
the Leadership Vision Podcast, Iam thrilled to share our
conversation with Anders Inset,a brilliant thinker, philosopher
(01:33):
and author of, among otherbooks, the Viking Code.
In this episode, Andersexplores how blending
individualism with collectivismcreates a high-performance
culture rooted in values,adaptability and trust.
He shares insights intobuilding meaningful progress,
not just for individuals, butalso for teams and organizations
(01:54):
striving for a future focusedmindset.
As you listen, I want you topay attention to two things here
.
Number one the power of trustand friction in driving progress
.
Anders explains how these twoforces create an environment
where innovation thrives andcollective growth happens.
Number two, the importance ofadaptability and a generalist
(02:16):
mindset In a world of rapidtechnological change.
Anders emphasizes how leaderscan succeed by fostering
creativity, play and awillingness to step into the
unknown.
So let's dive into thisabsolutely fascinating and fun
conversation.
I ended up editing not a lotout, but a good amount, as we
were just chatting and gettingto know one another.
(02:37):
It was just really afascinating conversation that we
think is going to challenge howyou think about leadership,
culture and the future.
This is a Leadership VisionPodcast, Enjoy.
So there's a sentence in Ithink it's in the introduction
of the book or the first section.
The Viking Code shows how wecan all lead more meaningful
(02:58):
lives by rejoicing in our ownsuccess while simultaneously
cheering on others to create aconscious culture of learning
and progress.
And why that jumped out to meand why I want to use that as
kind of launch off of who youare in the book, is that for our
American culture, that's kindof not the way we do things here
(03:19):
.
America is more aboutindividualistic.
You know me, how do I succeed,how do I lift myself up?
And something that we're tryingto do differently here at
Leadership Vision is say youknow, yes, and it is about me
and it's about the team, it'sabout the collective growing.
So, by way to introduce you andthe book, tell us a little bit
(03:44):
about kind of where this wholeidea came from, how the Viking
Code came out, how you evenbegan, you know, with all of the
other interests caring aboutthis topic.
I think I've given you fivequestions at once, so just grab
one, that's right, yeah, I'llplay with that.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
I was writing a book about capitalism because I think
that capitalism is the key totackle a lot of the things that
we are up to in terms of climateand you know the social
stability.
I think the incentive forchange and the driving force of
the economic is much stronger intrying to limit people.
You know the Greta Thunbergit's a lot of engagement doesn't
need to change.
(04:19):
So I was writing about that andall of a sudden I see all these
athletes coming out of my homecountry, norway, in the sports
that has nothing to do with snow, right.
So they were like soccer andtennis and golf and, yeah, the
two best, best beach volleyballplayers in the world, triathlons
, and I was like you know how isthat?
You know there is a huge globalsports and it's mainly young
(04:41):
men.
Uh, very strongly tiedrelationship to their father.
Still have a relationship totheir high school girlfriend
even so, it was like veryinteresting to see how similar
they were in many ways.
But you know my background.
As an athlete said okay, isthere some magic sauce here?
Is there like a code, likesomething that cracks in terms
of performance culture?
(05:02):
So I reached out to a coachtrainer in Norway that has
worked a lot of top athletes andwe started to dig into it and
as I started to play with this,I discovered what came to be the
topic of the book basicallyseeing that they're not only the
best at what they do asindividual athletes, but they're
also the most liked.
So they practice team play,fair play, and that, to me,
(05:24):
became like the narrative, andsee how can you unite
individualism and collectivismand how can you build a high
performance culture that isdeeply rooted in values and
that's coming out of a countrythat does not value high
performance, that has alwaysbeen built on the collective.
Then you know that was anarrative, that was the book,
and then it felt very natural tome to write the first part, as
(05:48):
you have um stated already.
Um, that is a lot about my lifeand me growing up and
autobiographical, and, and thenI move into these athletes and
they are a symbol of some ofthese things that I look at.
So, but the second part of thebook is basically what, when you
come to the part, part of theprogress, it's more of a life
philosophy.
(06:08):
So, in a world where we haveoptimized the art of being right
, an optimization society we nowdiscover today, with the
advance of AI and technology,that the optimization game is
something that technology willalways win, so you know.
So what is it that we need?
The understanding, thecollectivity, how to build
something that is bigger thanthe sum of its parts.
(06:30):
The full essence of what wecall a culture becomes the
foundation of performance.
So, as you said, the US hasbeen built on a declaration of
independence.
But in order for me to strive,there has to be someone else
that I can strive against.
So I am, because you are.
And if you look at the teamstoday, in particular in sports,
(06:52):
where you have all the data, youhave the same training, you
know path structures, everythinghas been optimized to the
outmost.
So the only thing that you haveis to figure out how can you
build like a reinforcementlearning model where the team
grows and the ones that areambitious or has the aspiration
to strive above, can rise above.
(07:13):
And then you become very clearto you that if you have an
aspiration to grow, it's betterthat you play in an environment
of people that perform at ahigher level, an environment of
people that perform at a higherlevel.
And so businesses were built onhierarchies and you're going to
move the way up the ladder bykicking off someone else.
But in today's world, where youhave almost infinite access to
(07:33):
free knowledge, every companycan be like that.
So then it comes back to whatis the essence, and that is to
have a culture where you have adynamism of progress, so that
becomes the only thing that candistinguish you and your
organization from everyone else.
So that is the part that goesaround the classic traditional
(07:56):
management, leadership thinkingand high-performance culture,
and the second part is deeplyabout what it makes for a
meaningful life.
The second part is deeply aboutwhat is it makes for a
meaningful life.
So we human beings were broughtto this world with two thumbs
and the capabilities to createtools.
So we have thought about finitesolutions and answers, but what
(08:20):
we do is basically to createbetter problems.
So we have the capacity tocreate progress, and experienced
progress is the most fulfillingthing to a human being.
And if you look at society today, where we react on an outside
world with impulses of dopamineand what have you, you are lost
your agency.
We are like philosophicalzombies, just functioning and
(08:40):
reacting, and that becomes veryexhausting.
Just functioning and reacting,and that becomes very exhausting
.
So the book is also about thatphilosophy of what you in German
would say lebendigkeit, a verypowerful word about the vitality
of life, but the word itselfhas five, six different words in
English baked into it.
It's the very essence of whatit means to be a mensch, a human
(09:03):
being, to be active and livelyand to grow and experience your
progress.
So I think it's a book is.
It's a simple read, but it's adeep book, philosophically
speaking, about the challengesof our time.
So with that I've alsointroduced a lot of what I stand
for and who I am.
So that's the Viking Code in ashort, brief introduction for
(09:24):
you.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
Based on the assistant sitting.
Next, a short, briefintroduction for you, based on
the assistant sitting next toyou.
Like, is this part of yourlegacy as well?
Like sometimes, when we put ourwords out into the world, or
our sentiments or the thingsthat you value, do you see this
as part of the message you'retrying to extend into the world?
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
This is the quickest book,fastest book that I've ever
written and to me it's like avery accessible book to a very
broad audience.
And it's also my first officialbook that is published in the
US.
So it's for me also to enter amarket where I think today that,
seeing the division in the USand how we live, you can go to a
(10:08):
game and have a deep sense ofpatriotism and collectivism.
And when you saw Tim Walz comeout all of a sudden out of
nowhere, he was appealing to alot that people could relate to
the communes and thecollectivism.
And so I think I wouldn't saythat this is my legacy, because
I'm very, very tightly tied toconsciousness and what it means
(10:32):
to be human in relation totechnology, which is a much more
complex topic.
But I think that a part of thatis what I hold to be a
self-evident truth for us humanbeings is that we are born to
create, we are born to advance,we are born to experience our
own experiences, and that meansyou know, if you are thrown back
(10:56):
or something happens, you startat a new point, but from that
point it's all about progress.
So all we have is an infinitecapability to come up with
better explanation or to moveonwards, and the sense of being
is to experience that journey,which is obviously also very
philosophical in an Eastern term, but very simple in terms of
(11:18):
saying that if I experiencegrowth, if I experience
something that I advance thenext step when you run the
marathon or triathlon, it's notabout the goal, the finite goal,
it's about that perfection ofthe next steps and all these
small steps that you experiencecompounds into records and money
and fortune and fame, but thatis something that can never be
(11:41):
the part of your life becausethat's a finitude of goal
setting and it can only be partof a bigger journey, and I think
that's about progress.
So you are, in some sense, itis a legacy, but I think there
is much more depth to this, interms of technology and
consciousness, obviously.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Thank you for the answer, wow.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Andrew, something is sticking in my head from what
you from where you started.
Thank you for the answer.
Wow, your original questionabout what makes these
individuals unique and you'retalking about the relationships
they have with coaches, pastgirlfriends, expertise in their,
their sport.
How does that translate intoanother person's context where
(12:37):
they're not experts at a sport?
How do you connect it back tothose shaping relationships at a
time in someone's life wheretheir brain is going through a
formative phase, where that thephysicality, the intellection,
the relationality is like reallygetting a grip on someone's
life.
That's going to have lastingimpact for decades to come.
(12:59):
Was there a question there?
Speaker 1 (13:01):
it's at the right moment when it's all happening
no, and I I mean yourrelatability, that right, and
and I think that is a very goodquestion.
It's a very good topic because,um, the expertise is something
that we have always strived forright.
We build a knowledge society ofabsolutisms.
We said this is, this is what Ihold to be true.
(13:23):
This is the right way.
It's a very binary way ofthinking, and we have started to
communicate like that by socialmedia.
We have thumbs up, thumbs down.
There's an instantgratification, instant reaction,
and there is no depth andreflection.
So what I write about in thebook is how to build a large
toolbox.
I state this as living in theera of generalists.
(13:45):
None of us know what kind ofjobs there will be in 10 years
from now, let alone how thesports will develop.
So you have to be in a placewhere you can adapt to new
circumstances and the complexityand the speed requires for you
to have a broad toolbox.
If you have that, in anintellectual sense, you could
(14:07):
see patterns.
You could, you know, go moretowards a first principle
thinking and ask the rightquestions.
So, instead of finding theperfect answer to the wrong
question, you could actuallycome up with something that is
from that kind of you know,having that broad toolbox.
And coming back to that, whatyou're related to in sport,
there are two models.
(14:28):
Right, there is the hardcoreput the kids with four years on
a specialization camp, and manyhave tried to adapt this model.
It works in the favelas inBrazil because there's a million
young boys playing soccer sevenhours a day.
Right, it works at Barcelonabecause they have thousands of
boys wanting to get in.
(14:48):
It does not work in Røros, inmy hometown in Norway, with
3,500 people and minus 40degrees in the wintertime and
you're going to play soccerthere.
It's going to be freaking coldand a lot of snow, so you need
to have like.
So I was forced to.
I wasn't forced, I liked it, Ireally did.
I did biathlon, cross-countryskiing, soccer, everything,
because if I didn't show up forthe other ones, they wouldn't
(15:11):
come to my team game, right?
So I developed that broadtoolbox and that has been a
model for all these athletes.
They were very, very diverse intheir focus and only like 16,
17, 18, they start to specialize.
And I think this is veryrelatable today, where we have
this almost infinite free accessto perfect knowledge perfect in
(15:33):
the sense of the best that acomputer can validate today, and
if we discover that it's wrong,we're going to correct it and
it's going to be right for therest of eternity.
And that way, I think, you know, being a generalist is that
much more powerful.
So we are less experts and more, I would say, professional
amateurs.
(15:54):
You know, we work hard, wecarry a beginner's mind, we are
learners, shouzen, as they wouldsay in Zen Buddhism.
So that is more the.
I would say, like the tensionof our time, that this has
changed a little bit.
But by all the respect thereare, you know, value in
specialization and the messes inthe Ronaldos and all these
(16:14):
superstars.
They will have a job in future,but for everyone else it's
probably more of having thatadaptability, right.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Okay, so you have now mentioned either mindfulness
and spirituality three times, soI want to now ask um?
What's the connection there?
What is your insight on thatdimension of awareness awakening
, accessibility of the, thespiritual, um meditative,
mindful part of the book, orjust what you're talking about
(16:45):
in general?
Speaker 1 (16:46):
no, I, I get that a lot and um, I, I cannot, um, I
cannot relate to that in thesame sense as a very spiritual
human being.
Okay, I cannot relate to thatum, um with people that have
gone down a deep path ofmeditation.
I cannot relate to that in thatsense of the word spiritual.
(17:09):
I am by, I think, by nature aperson of philosophical
contemplation.
I don't need a category or afirm ground to stand on.
I know enough about thestructures of our physical
perceived reality throughquantum physics to understand
that that's not to the fullextent explicable.
(17:30):
We don't know, and the same goesfor the realm of spiritualism,
various type of spiritualjourneys that people have been
on, and the same goes forreligion and belief.
I think many people needsomething to hold on to and a
category of something, but Idon't and I've talked about this
(17:51):
in the past that when I've goneoff stages where I've put in a
lot of energy and spoken tothousands of people, some people
come up to me that are veryspiritual per their own
definition or have gone throughsome terrible things in life.
They come to me and they say Ifeel your energy and there are
times where I have like thatenergy, but if I'm exhausted I'm
(18:12):
more of a perfect ai, because II would say the right thing,
but I don't really feel that.
So I cannot always relate to it.
I don't think this makes sense,but but and that, um, it's not
that I'm doing something onpurpose, deliberately, but what
happens with me then?
It makes me question the wholeessence of this spiritual or
(18:35):
energetic.
Because if you can put an AIthat you would relate to as if
very spiritual, then it's veryhard for me to relate.
So it's when my cognitive brainis saying someone come to me
and you say you're very mindfulawareness, I don't know.
It feels like something talkinginto this computer, right, but
where am I on that journey?
(18:55):
I have really no idea, and thatis why this question is
wonderful and beautiful, butit's also very difficult to
unpack because I see it from allthese different directions,
from the, you know, as I said,the religious part and the
physical part.
I don't know if that makessense to you, but this is like
how I've been dancing aroundthose various disciplines.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
No, it does make sense to me and I love your
perspective because your posturein your explanation I'm hearing
a posture of how you're awareof a reality and then also being
able to say where am I on that,not certain.
(19:44):
I also think that people don'tfeel the permission to be able
to say that because, like you'vementioned earlier, in a binary
world where we feel like we'reforced to make a choice on one
side or the other and we feellike there is a side or another
side, you're standing kind of inin this middle section saying
there can be a reality thatexists here, and I feel that
that philosophy is also part ofyour perspective that you're
bringing through the book isthere's another way to stand
(20:06):
with, like, stand with my talent, stand with the people that are
around me and being able toaccept how it is that we're
showing up without any lack ofexpression or the need for an
extended experience of somethingor to be able to grow in
someone's expertise.
So it's not that you'resettling for anything.
(20:27):
It's a very unique position tobe in.
I really mean it.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
To me, the part of learning is the foundation.
It's beautiful, I'm privileged.
So I was a professional athlete, I built my companies, but I
never experienced success.
Today I can say I'm reallysuccessful to myself for me,
right?
Because I'm privileged to getup in the morning every day and
learn.
So of course I have an ego, ofcourse I relate to that, but I'm
(20:54):
also.
I recently published a paper onthe simulation hypothesis
together with three quantumphysicists and they said try to
prove to me that we are notliving in a simulation.
That's not the same claim assaying I'm confident we are, but
it turns out it's almostimpossible to figure out based
on modern physics.
And try to prove that we arenot living in a simulation.
(21:18):
And the same goes formonotheisms.
Okay, if there are multiple.
Goes for monotheism If thereare multiple monotheistic
categories.
I'm an agnostic atheist, youknow.
Gather up and agree on one andI'm open for that explanation or
that experience, right.
(21:38):
So it's just that if you listento someone like Donald Hoffman
explain that consciousness isthe foundation and reality
emerges out of that, you knowI'm not saying reality.
I mean I'm definitely on theside of saying reality is not
how we perceive it, but itdoesn't take away what David
Chalmers also refers to as thehard problem of consciousness.
It doesn't take away the actualexperience of the experience.
(21:58):
No one can take away thesubjective experience that I
have talking to you, regardlessof if you're conscious and
whatever.
That is right.
So it is also to that extentthat it's even more complex.
It's that I don't even needreality to that extent to stand
on, but I experience that, Itake it for granted.
(22:20):
So it's a glass.
I know quantum, physicallyspeaking, it's waves and
energies, and we have no ideahow it gets together.
But I take it as a glass and Idrink out of it and relate to
that.
I didn't go about and try to tosuck it in and learn and that's
.
I think that's the beauty of ofof life.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, I feel like I should be smoking a pipe
listening, smoking a pipe,listening to you in like a yeah,
I appreciate your perspectiveyeah, I love it.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yeah, I'm not a smoker, but yeah, too many.
That was like the one, the onethe long, one the long pipe, the
gandalf pipe, really going?
I had that.
I came off a leadershipconference yesterday and there's
one of norway's I think she'smost one of the most funny
people in norway.
She's like very you know withher words and how she plays
around and after my closingkeynote she came over to me and
(23:12):
said I'm, I would be kind of um,some kind of um, what you call
it like some kind of leader of a, like a, um, a clan or
something like a cult cult yeah,like a cult leader.
And she looked into my eyes andsaid I want to join your cult
I'm just, I'm just talking outwhat I'm thinking, yeah, of
(23:32):
course, yeah, so so bring up thepipe, bring out the pipe,
exactly and you're, you'regiving other people freedom.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
then because I, because I hear you, not us I
hear you inviting us to considersome of your ideas and
philosophies and I just Iappreciate that.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
I want to ask you about the part where we talk
back to this binary thing, thepart of the collective community
, like we're being a collectivevolunteer, being a part of
something bigger than yourselfyourself.
That seems to be a message wedon't hear often enough, from my
perspective.
Do you care to like to to addsome dimension to what it is
(24:14):
that you're speaking about inyour book around that?
Speaker 1 (24:17):
yeah, I mean, if you can, you can go back to.
I talked about, like the, thespiritual movements, and also
religion.
You have, like the church where, where you go in there and
regardless of what you think isplausible and relatable, you let
the ego out the door.
You're a part of rituals andyou're a part of something where
you detach yourself from.
(24:38):
You're not going to sit down ifyou're in a church and they're
singing the songs, right, you'renot going to go and take that
agency back and do somethingelse.
So you're part of somethingbigger.
And I remember, you know, in myhometown and I had not very
strong relation to religion, buton Christmas Eve we all go to
this church and sing Christmascarol.
(24:59):
Sing Christmas carol and it'sone of the most beautiful
experiences where everyone isthere, everyone is together
singing the same song,regardless of you know the
meaning and the words andwhatever.
It's just that part of thatexperience and it gives you like
a liveliness and a vitality andrelatability to other people.
So that's one part of it.
(25:21):
The other part is, you know, ifyou do team sports and you
relate to others, it's a veryfulfilling experience to win
together and have progress andshared positive experience and
also, you know, losing, and Ithink that is also something
that appeals to me.
As I said in the beginning, youknow I am because you are.
You know we need like a kind ofsort of declaration of
(25:44):
interdependence that we sign.
Right, I can only I like thatthat is what I write about in in
the book and also thatcommitment to just doing stuff
for others without getting arole or a direct reward, because
you just have the sense offeeling like back thousand years
ago where you had the vikingsetting out in open boats,
everyone had a role andinspiration, and you just have
the sense of feeling like back athousand years ago where you
had the viking setting out inopen boats, everyone had a role
(26:07):
and inspiration, and you wouldhave, like thor, standing at the
shore of the coast, you thoughtthe world was flat and you
thought it was going to end.
And and he would say, are youcoming with me?
And they would say like, whereare they going?
I have no idea.
Whenever they're coming back, Ihave no idea.
Are we coming back?
I have no idea.
When are we coming back?
I have no idea.
Are we coming back?
I have no idea.
Great idea, let's go.
That was the all-in belief ininspiration, collectivism and
(26:30):
exploration, and I think thereis something beautiful in that,
where you experience that senseof being and being a part of
something.
Sense of being and being a partof something and, um, yeah, I
think it's a, it's an importantpart of us as a, as a humanities
, in terms of, in particular, intoday's society where, um, we
(26:53):
are more detached, um, you know,the number of friends we have
is going down.
A lot of young men arestruggling with loneliness and
you have a loneliness pandemic,even like kind of sort of seems
like, and I think that that thatis the answer to that.
And as technology advances, youknow, probably that will
increase and and therefore Ithink, the collective, the, even
(27:14):
the rituals, or how has thisvery strong place in society?
Speaker 3 (27:19):
I, I'm I'm curious I mean, this is a practical
question and I'll get there thekind of second half of your book
when you're talking about, like, the quantum economy, and you
talk about education andpolitics, and it's all infused
with this idea of centering onhumanity's potential for
(27:42):
creativity, adaptability, youknow, more responsibility, the
idea of doing good for the mostnumber, you know for a lot of
people.
And I'm wondering, you know, inyour leadership, talk, your
keynotes and conferences, how doyou, or how do we and this is a
part where I'm not quite surewhere my question is but how do
(28:03):
we sort of because that is anentire cultural shift in mindset
how do we begin to get peoplethat are, you know, so glued to
their phones, that dopamine hitthat you talked about, the, you
know, the stressed out leader,the stressed out parent, the
person who is like I got to lookout for myself the idea and I
think this is where Dugnag comesin here, if I'm saying that
(28:24):
right how do we start to doesthis make sense?
What I'm asking, what I'mtrying to ask how do we sort of
get to that where we canactually put some of these ideas
into practice and actuallychange our families, change our
schools, change our communities,change our businesses.
To be a more collective minded.
You know, let's all do goodtogether.
(28:45):
Yeah, like what's?
Give me three quick ways to dothat and then we'll move on yeah
, that is.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
That is where it becomes alice in talking to me,
right, because it needs somekind of substance and uh, but no
but um, the obvious one and theslow one is education.
Yeah, I love that chapter inthere.
Yeah, so we have taught whatyou should think and not how to
think.
So, going back to the streetsof Agora in ancient Greek, it's
(29:15):
about that collaboration,co-creation, the dialogue and
it's not about because today weare connected I mean, we're not
like physically connected to thedevices, but we have infinite
access to knowledge just at thetip of our hands, but we never
look it up.
So we go about and talk a lotof BS and read headlines and
(29:36):
media, but we could actuallyvalidate it in real time.
Imagine a Google or an AppleVision Pro or a glass where you
have an instant validationagainst an LLM when you talk.
So everything that comes out ofyour mouth is in instant time
validated and everything you seeis perceived and explained at
(29:59):
the best LLM.
So we have perfect knowledge.
If it's incorrect in thelanguage model, it will be fixed
from humanity because we agreeupon the right answer.
So you only have wrong one timeright, and that would be a
model where you would be talkingand you'd be lighting red on
the sender and the receiver.
It makes no sense to lie.
(30:21):
So what happens then?
Right, and that's why I thinkAI could be a source forcing us
to learn how to think.
So that would be a beautifuldevelopment if we could stay
there.
So education is very much afoundation.
The other part I would mentionis if a company today
(30:44):
understands that change andprogress is all we have, because
otherwise we would be replacedby someone that can do it more
efficient, then we have tofigure out what does change mean
?
Where does it come from?
So certainly it does not comefrom two people having opposite
opinions and never agreed to dosomething new.
So that's like a left right,black, white, zero, one binary
(31:07):
way.
That will not cause progress.
You have two people holding onto their self-evident truth.
So we had this place in theorganization prior to the
pandemic.
It was a trillion dollarindustry.
It was called the coffeemachine coffee place.
So what happened there?
People that worked in the samecompany had a base trust in each
(31:30):
other because they were in aphysical space and they figured
out how to navigate and getalong.
There were awkward moments,days that were difficult.
But you bumped into thesepeople and could talk outside of
Zoom sessions and figure thatout.
People bumped into each otherthat had never spoken and
started to talk about ideas.
(31:51):
So the two forces of change, Ibelieve, are trust and friction.
You cannot trust, you know, youcannot speak openly about your
opinion If you trust yourself.
You can listen to someone else,you can get into that dance and
maybe tap into the unknown orfind some way to navigate.
(32:11):
And if you don't have friction,you will never have something
new.
And if you have an absolutism,you will just have division, and
that is what we're seeing intoday's society have division,
and that is what we're seeing intoday's society.
So this just becomes a challengefor an organization to first
build trust.
So how do you do that?
I mean the first essence ofbuilding trust is to start to
(32:32):
train to trust yourself.
If I trust myself, only thencan I trust other people.
So training on self-trustbecomes then the leadership
mission right.
Training on self-trust becausebecomes then the leadership
mission right.
So building trust to you istherefore also a part of that
part.
But what makes you a leader?
And that is tapping into yourvulnerability.
You know the things,understanding that you know.
(32:55):
When you have people around,you know a lot more than you.
Then you can dance with them,right as in comparisons to being
a manager and hierarchicalstructure where you tell
everyone what to do, what tothink and how to act, and that
model, I think, is rock dead.
Um, that's a model fortechnology, uh.
So I think that two topics likethe one, education and the
(33:18):
other one, uh, built trust andfriction where companies
understand that, oh, we can onlymake money if we have progress.
Those forces are pretty strongbecause companies want to excel
in advance and take market shareand, in an educational
perspective, we will just get.
That makes no sense teachingkids about how to save data for
(33:40):
an hour and to get a grade andget a role and be an expert for
a job that doesn't exist infuture.
Speaker 4 (33:45):
Well, when you speak about trust and friction, I
can't help but all the lessonswe learned on the playground,
and this would be a great entrypoint.
I would love to hear some ofyour perspective on play, the
risk involved, the opportunityfor, I think, humans to
experience change.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
But tell us from your perspective.
Talk to us about play, to add.
I love that that chapter isjoyful joyful from the
cultivation of play to themastery of the game.
I love that those two ideas areconnected.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Yes, I think so, and I wrote about this in my quantum
economy book, and Simon Sinekhas also written there a book on
this topic, the Infinite Game,where we distinguish between
infinite games and finite games.
Inspired by a theologist, jamesP Carr's 1984, I think his book
, and that was the inspirationthat Simon Sinek so beautifully
(34:40):
put into his book and obviouslygot all the credits for it.
But it's a logical concept, avery thin book that is about
play and many of us don't knowthat and it's very interesting
to see that from a theologistthat goes into that
philosophical dance right.
So I think one thing is the funpart, the playful part.
I always say you know, if youstop playing you're risk growing
(35:01):
up.
You know everything becomes,you know, too serious.
But kids see that they don'twant to have playgrounds where
everything is secured up andregulated.
You know they want to go intothe woods and the forest and
play around.
Or, you know, even to someplace, a rural place, where you
can just do things.
That was how it used to be.
You know, get up, get out, out,put on the clothes, regardless
(35:24):
of weather, just get out innature and play around, and even
there.
We have now put it into a systemwhere everything has a rule and
a regulated part and a securedpart and everything, and that
becomes like borders ofexistence.
It takes away a lot ofexploration and you have many
organizations today that spend alot of time teaching people how
to be creative, and I thinkthat's awkward.
(35:46):
Why don't we just stop trainingthat out of human beings?
I have never seen a toddler whois not explorative, active and
creative.
They're all born naturally withthe empty storage and we want
to navigate.
So the problem is not that wedon't train enough creativity.
The problem is we train it outof it, through our educational
(36:07):
model, through kindergarten,through regulation, through
rules and all that, and we putpeople into boxes and categories
and then we optimize thecategory and then we realize
that technology is much betterat this category because the
more we have written down, themore we have defined the rules,
better ai and technology is thatdoing it.
That's why everyone was sosurprised that all of a sudden
(36:29):
you know the lawyers and theconsultants, and even in
medicine.
That's that I came after thesejobs.
Yeah, and that's isn't thatobvious.
That's where we have the mostprecise data right, more the
most clear rules, and that's thebest thing technology can have.
So I think when we realize thatthere is a lot of potentiality
(36:50):
to tap into that playful partand that joyful joyful as you
referred to- have you everslight tangent?
Speaker 3 (36:57):
have you ever taken your kids to Wow Park in Denmark
?
To what?
To Wow Park in Denmark?
Wow Park, do you know what?
Speaker 1 (37:03):
that is no, I don't know.
I have.
I've been to the legal land andthrough denmark and everything,
but I don't know what you referto as a wow it's called wow
park.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
It's in bill and it's essentially this.
We went there with our family.
It's this gigantic outdoor.
I don't know if I would call ita playground.
It's all of these, uh, rope,swings and bridges.
It doesn't feel safe is whereI'm going with it.
It is, but compared to a US andAmerican playground or park,
there's an element of risk and Ithink why our family loved it
(37:34):
so much is because the kids justkind of went free and there was
this element of a little bit ofrisk, a lot, a lot of play, and
it was fascinating.
I looked into a little bit moreand I guess I of play and it
was fascinating.
I looked into a little bit moreand I guess I don't know if
this is danish or like all ofscandinavia but that whole
element of uh, because in the us, you know, they've gotten rid
of all of the like woodenplaygrounds and and they're so,
(37:55):
um, just sterilized where thekids don't like playing on them
anymore.
Um, so how do you?
How?
Speaker 1 (38:00):
do you write that?
How do you?
I mean, because that was.
This is something like Climbingparks, where you climb up, high
up in the trees in balance,you're secure, but it's like a
different type of playground.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
It's kind of like that I'll put the link In the
chat.
Can I do that?
Where's the chat here?
I was trying to.
I'll email it to you.
It is absolutely amazing.
There's this um, and now we'rereally off on a tangent no, this
is that's good, this isbeautiful.
This is a good conversation,it's so it was so much fun, but
(38:31):
it like, as you were talking, Iwas like wait a second, that's
exactly what, what we did thereand again, the reason I bring it
up is because I think sometimesin business and leadership we
put so many guardrails on anylevels of risk that play is
removed, that any sort of danger, because we want the sure thing
, we want the guarantee we don'twant, you know, creativity just
(38:53):
within these two lines.
And so if we can go back tosome of those ideas of you know,
imaginative play, curiosity, Ithink you say in the book you
know the importance ofstimulating curiosity.
How, again, in your work, howdo you do that?
Or how do you encourage peopleto have more of that play?
Speaker 1 (39:12):
You touched on it a little bit but yeah, for me it's
easy because I don't have allthese boundaries and ruptures
that I have to relate to.
So I am a very I'm a nerd interms of you know math and
programming, I used to writecode and all that.
So I like a plausibleexplanation, I like a factual,
(39:32):
but I'm also creative in termsof I like to play the free piano
and write, so I don't have allthese boundaries that I have to
relate to.
That's just an advantage interms of not relating to
structure.
So what I think is that, if youcould see, in Germany in
particular, they have taken upthis notion of creating a
(39:52):
failure culture.
So you cope with failure, and Iget the aspect and the essence
of that, but I think this is thewrong way of looking at it.
So we don't want to have afailure culture.
It's when, if you lose, it'snot about celebrating losing,
it's not about like it's itshould.
It shouldn't feel right to lose, but as long as the drive to
(40:15):
win and you know it's stronger,you will always continue.
So you want to have anincentive for change, you want
to have that light um, you knowto move on.
But then there are times whereyou know failure culture becomes
something that you know.
You wouldn't have a failureculture doctor doing an open
(40:36):
heart surgery.
You wouldn't have a pilottrained on failure culture.
It just has to function right.
So you have that finite gamewhere you win or lose and you
play.
But when you play on that gameyou play at the expert level.
Everything has to function andwork.
But then, if you have in sport,you have the playing ground,
(40:57):
you play through the trainingpitch where you go beyond, you
try something new, and I thinkthis is where organization can
learn from sport.
Also, when are you doing thegame where you have to deliver?
You know when is it, you knowagility and you need high
stability, secure processes.
You want to speed up.
(41:17):
Everything has to functionright and then you need some
time where you can go beyond,where you can play around, and
one company that I I rememberreading early and I've reread
the book a couple of times tofunction right.
And then you need some timewhere you can go beyond, where
you can play around, and onecompany that I remember reading
early and I reread the book acouple of times it's one of my
favorite on this topic is by EdCatmull and Pixar Inc.
Yeah, where, how they builtPixar inspired by the Disney
vision and talk about plussingand adding to it, and how that
(41:41):
really high-performance culturethat is also built on
playfulness and that's like withSteve Jobs and Ed Catmull.
I think that's a very good bookon the topic.
But I always like todistinguish between when there's
no room for playfulness orfailure.
There are things where it hasto just function right and then
(42:02):
there are parts where you wantto learn and adapt and move on
and tap into the unknown.
And where is your trainingpitch?
Where is your training groundin your organization?
When are you doing that,pushing for that right?
That's my question on thattopic.
Speaker 4 (42:17):
Yeah, I love that we were working with an
organization the top 40 leadersof this org and the leader said,
in this room right now, as weare together in this quarterly
meeting, this is where we canfail, because this is where we
can practice.
There are no eyes on us in thisroom, so let's risk.
(42:37):
And she invited the group toplay, and that's why it's not
just like playing Can you pushme on a swing or can I go down a
slide or climb something?
But it's this, um, we like tocall play practice in disguise
where we're deliberatelypracticing something that then
(42:58):
will lead to when it's game time.
We've worked out those kinks,we've unlearned the things that
we need to unlearn and thethings that we need to unlearn
and are able to to step intothose others.
So I I appreciate yoursentiments on that as well.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
It's good, yeah, thank you just a short note in
that letter.
You already got before with theinvitation to think or the
questions, right?
So so I, I don't think you know.
If you're postulating facts,you are not open to the other.
So you know I, I don't thinkyou know I'm.
Whatever I read or know, I don'twant to teach people what to do
or how to do and what to think,but, but I want to teach them
(43:32):
how to think.
You know to think for himself.
You know I'm just thinking outloud and if that resonates, I
want to learn.
So I want to have friction, Iwant to have opinions and I
think, if you invite that in aboardroom, that is very healthy.
So, even though you might havea strong opinion, you first want
to hear everyone out and you'reopen to their ideas right,
because if you, as a leader,take a strong claim on something
(43:55):
, they're not going to follow.
But first I want to heareveryone else's idea, right, and
then I can come back toexplaining how I think it might
be in a different way, or I seeit like that how do you think
about that?
And that gets the best out ofpeople.
That gets the progress partgoing.
I think that's right, that'sright, very important part yeah
oh, so good is there.
Speaker 4 (44:14):
Okay, we, uh, this is flown by we're um clock, we
gotta is there any?
Is there any question that wecan ask you that that could just
set set you up that maybe inthis conversation with us, your
imagination is kind of going?
Is there any question that wecan ask you to pull something
out of you or give you aplatform to speak, something
(44:35):
that you haven't yet?
Speaker 3 (44:36):
Anything to set up a final thought that you want to
leave us with.
Speaker 4 (44:40):
What can we ask you?
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Yeah, I think that's a very good question.
I mean, that's that.
That just set me up right there.
Speaker 4 (44:51):
So that's all, I think.
What are the questions?
Speaker 1 (44:54):
that's the best question you could ask.
No, I think.
Yeah, no, but but asking aboutthe implications of technology.
So what is the most neededleadership skill today?
It is to anticipate future andto anticipate plausible future
scenarios, and we're not good atthat.
(45:15):
We have 80 years of exponentialtechnologies and I always ask
leaders I say do you think wewill go back and play Snake on
our Nokiaia 5110?
Speaker 3 (45:26):
that's a great game, but yeah yeah, no, no.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
All due respect, there are many great games in
the past, but but do you thinkwe will go there?
You are thinking we haveprogress and everyone said, yeah
, progress.
Do you think we'll speed up?
Yes, so that, but why are youacting based on research of the
past, then why are you notprojecting into the future?
If the battery cost of anelectric vehicle has dropped 90%
(45:53):
in the past 10 years, do youthink the battery will be
slightly better in 10 years orworse?
Speaker 2 (46:03):
Slightly better.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
So it's very interesting and you think about
Volkswagen in Germany that areholding on to gasoline and
diesel driven cars, so fossilfuel vehicles.
And it's not about you know theideology and the climate debate
.
It's not about you know theideology and the climate debate.
It's just a simple truth thatas of 2025, a fossil fuel car
(46:29):
will not be competitive for manyreasons.
One is that a fossil fuel carhas 2,000 parts and an electric
vehicle has 10 parts.
Which car do you think willcause more issues in terms of
service and you know.
The other one is, regardless ofhow efficient you are with
(46:50):
fossil fuel, you have totransport it to an area where
you fill it up, as, incomparison, just sucking the sun
out of the sky that you can doall over the world.
You will see now, today, thatan electric vehicle can fuel
your house for three days withenergy.
So it means if you can chargeyour car, you can have energy
(47:14):
for your house.
All right, so in Michigan andIdaho and in Sweden they are
building induction street.
Induction streets are where youload while driving.
Right, oh yeah, walmart, takeall these huge spaces that you
have in the us.
If all of them has solar panelson the roof, they will have an
(47:37):
overproduction of energy most ofthe year.
With today's technology, how doyou think it will be in five to
10 years from now?
So they will say, okay, what dowe do with all this extra
energy?
Well, they give it to thepeople that come and buy stuff.
So you take your electric car,you have a supercharger, you go
and buy your groceries, you comeout, your car is fully loaded,
(47:58):
you drive it back home, you plugin your house and you have free
energy.
Hmm, that is a scenario that is, technologically speaking, in a
very near future.
It is all about storage anddistribution and execution, and
do you think we will figure thatout?
I think so.
So this is when everyone comesto a conclusion and say that
(48:21):
okay, so that means that we willhave probably literally
infinite access to almost freeenergy.
And when I say free energy, themarginal cost of energy Even
today, the next kilowatt hour ofenergy, when you have that
green energy, is literally free.
And the challenge here is thatit will not be about
(48:42):
sustainability, it will be aboutefficiency.
If you don't use resourcesefficient in your company, it's
not about being sustainable andgreen and ideology and saving
the planet.
Then it becomes something else.
It becomes the essence ofmaking money.
Our sustainability will slowlyfade out of our vocabulary
(49:03):
because in 10 years from now, ifyou're not efficient, you will
not have EBIT, you will not makemoney, and the ones that get
that amongst them are theChinese.
So if you have a competitiveenvironment where they speed up
all these green energy and thebattery evolution, what have you
not?
What will follow?
Market economy?
So this is the last thought onthat topic.
(49:25):
This is one example of thingsthat will happen.
I could do the same for financeand health and a lot of
industry.
But it's very simple If youjust think about a technology,
you predict a slight increaseand the investment and the
impact of the current investmentand the exponential curve, you
could project pretty much whatthe scenario will be in 10 years
(49:47):
.
And leaders are not good atthat.
They react and they don'treflect.
That's the biggest challenge toanticipate plausible future
scenarios.
You say to me, anders, you haveprovocative ideas.
I say no, I have really stupid,boring ideas I haven't thought
about them and you're justsaying them out loud.
Speaker 4 (50:05):
I love that.
Yes, you're saying them outloud, well.
Speaker 3 (50:08):
Anders, thank you so much.
This has just flown by.
I really appreciate not onlythe book but just all the
thinking around it and thedifferent ideas that I feel like
are so applicable to so manydifferent areas of life.
So, thank you so much.
Appreciate it, brian Linda.
Any final thanks?
Speaker 2 (50:27):
No, this has been phenomenal.
So thank you so much for theconversation.
What I really enjoy is theguests we have in our podcast.
That and this is important frommy perspective it's clear
they've done the hard work Likethey've done and continue to do
the wrestling with whatevertheir content is to make it
(50:49):
accessible to other people.
From an athletic point of view,you're always making progress
through the practice and throughthe iteration of what it means
to be an athlete, to watch youtake the knowledge you have,
continue to work through what itis so that it can be accessible
to other people.
I think that's phenomenal,especially when someone can take
(51:11):
complex thoughts and break themdown for us to agitate our
thinking.
Because from just how you endedthere with the need for leaders
to be not just focused on thefuture but leaning into a future
specific mindset, I know fromour work that's not a practice
that we find very often wherethere's a leader that's stuck
(51:34):
leaning forward.
That part that you said aboutstudying the past, like why
would you do that?
That just makes so much senseto me because it's rare that you
have that future-leaning leader.
So I really appreciate yourapproach, the strength with
which you are wrestling withthese topics and the invitation
(51:55):
for us to lead with that morefuturistic lean.
Speaker 4 (51:57):
Yeah, thank you so much for being with us.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Brian Nate and Linda.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (52:03):
Another big thank you to Anders Insett for taking the
time to chat with us.
Brian, nathan, linda, thank youso much for having me.
Another big thank you to AndersInsett for taking the time to
chat with us.
It was such a fascinating andfun conversation.
He's an interesting guy.
He is one of the most uniquepeople, I think well, we've ever
interviewed on the podcast andthere are links to his book and
some of his other his websiteand some of his other stuff that
he's done and is a part of inthe show notes and the
(52:25):
accompanying blog post for this.
I just love his diversity ofthought.
We didn't even get into some ofhis stuff on, like the quantum
economy and some of that stuff.
He has a new book coming out.
I don't know when in relationto when this is going live, but
around something they did with abunch of physicists and astro
(52:45):
and it's just.
It's just.
It's way above my head.
So anyway, thank you forlistening to the Leadership
Vision Podcast.
Go check out Anders Insett andall of his just amazing work and
stuff that he's doing withleaders.
You can subscribe to ourpodcast if you found value from
this, but I think what we wouldappreciate even more is just
sharing it with someone that youthink would benefit from
building a stronger culture intheir organization.
(53:09):
You can visit us on the web atleadershipvisionconsultingcom,
follow us on the socials, allthat stuff.
Blah, blah, blah.
My name is Nathan Freeberg and,on behalf of our entire team,
thanks for listening.
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