June 9, 2025 • 61 mins
Neuropsychologist Dr. Julia DiGangi joins the Leadership Vision Podcast to explore how emotional energy drives our lives, leadership, and relationships. From rewiring patterned emotional responses to building resilience through pain, this conversation offers practical, science-based insights for anyone looking to grow in emotional power.
Topics Discussed:
- Why the brain resists change (and how to work with it)
- The difference between processing pain and perseverating in it
- How emotional energy shapes team culture
- Practical ways to build emotional power and stop outsourcing your feelings
- What emotional strength really looks like in action
Learn more about Dr. Julia DiGangi and her book Energy Rising: https://www.drjuliadigangi.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right.
When the guy cuts me off at thestop sign and I start the, let
me just and ask myself thisquestion what am I saying?
I cannot handle about thisright now, because the reason
you protect is for protectionand the reason you protect is
because you think you cannothandle.
(00:20):
So what can you not handle?
And if you really sit with thequestion, like really sit with
it, you will start.
Things will start.
And if you really sit with thequestion like really sit with it
, you will start things willstart to come to you.
You won't like them, but itwill start to come.
Like he thinks he's moreimportant than me.
Who does he think that?
Okay, well, okay, so say, okay,he thinks he's more important
than me, so what?
But like you gotta, it's hardto come up with an answer Like
(00:40):
so what?
Well, I guess I don't reallylike that.
Okay, can you handle not likingthat?
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Yes, you are listening to the Leadership
Vision Podcast, our show helpingyou build positive team culture
.
Our consulting firm has beendoing this work for the past 25
years so that leaders arementally engaged and emotionally
healthy.
To learn more about our work,you can click the link in the
show notes or visit us on theweb at
leadershipvisionconsultingcom.
(01:08):
Hello everyone, my name isNathan Freeberg and today on the
podcast, we are joined by DrJulia Degangu, an expert in the
connection between our brains,our emotions and our
relationships.
Through her work as aneuropsychologist, she helps
people harness the power of thebrain to lead more emotionally
intelligent and fulfilling lives.
(01:29):
Dr Daganji has conductedresearch at institutions like
Harvard, columbia and theUniversity of Chicago, and her
insights have guided leaders insettings ranging from the White
House to internationalhumanitarian aid organizations
and all sorts of other companies.
We were first introduced to herwork through her incredible book
Energy Rising the Neuroscienceof Leading with Emotional Power,
(01:52):
a book that explores how ouremotional energy shapes every
part of our lives, from ourleadership to our closest
relationships.
In this episode today, weexplore how to transform
emotional pain into personalpower, why our brains crave
certainty even at the expense ofpeace, and what it really means
to regulate ourselves ratherthan try to regulate others.
(02:15):
Now, as you listen here today,pay special attention to Dr
Julia's distinction betweenprocessing pain and
perseverating in it adeceptively simple idea that
might just change how you thinkabout leadership, relationships
and resilience.
All right, let's pick it uphere and just get to know Dr
Julia a bit more.
A bit more about her backgroundand how she got into this work.
(02:37):
Enjoy.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
You know, and I think when we think about our lives
we all think about ourchildhoods.
So my father actually is apsychologist and I never thought
that I would become apsychologist.
My father wasn't territorial,in fact.
I really kind of grew up havingthese conversations about
trauma, about relationships,about addictions, conversations
(03:07):
about trauma, aboutrelationships about addictions.
So I had a very deep interestin psychology that, I think,
kind of came from my father.
I have one brother.
My brother is significantlydisabled, and so this idea of
service and sort of tending toother people's suffering was
very alive in my family system.
My father's brilliant.
My father has a lot of mentalhealth issues.
So I was kind of bothexplicitly and implicitly put to
(03:28):
this question, which sort ofsounds strange, but from a very
early age I kind of had thisquestion is what am I supposed
to do about pain?
I had a very genuine interestin people and so I thought, okay
, well, I'm going to become ajournalist.
I was a journalism major justbecause I like people's stories
and I am a natural listener.
And as I started to do somejournalism work I sort of felt
(03:52):
like that was too much on thesidelines and so I sort of
transitioned into political andorganizing work.
So I did a lot of politicalwork.
I actually started my career atthe White House.
I've worked on several, youknow, presidential campaigns,
gubernatorial campaigns,congressional campaigns, and I
think a lot of people are goingto resonate with this.
(04:12):
I got tired of the politics, ofpolitics, but was still very
interested in these kind ofhuman stories, and so I sort of
transitioned to internationalhumanitarian aid work and what I
kind of realized is likewhether I was in Chicago,
whether I was in DC, whether Iwas in Detroit, whether I was in
Nairobi or Lagos, loss alwaysfelt like loss, hope always felt
(04:36):
like hope, betrayal always feltlike betrayal.
And so I became very interestedin this question of emotion,
really.
And so what are we supposed todo specifically about painful
emotion?
And then that's what kind ofled me to sort of start to ask
these scientific questions,which then led me to this PhD
program.
So never in a million years didI think I would become a
neuropsychologist and sort ofthink about really these
(04:59):
questions of my childhood atthis level of my career.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Wow's cool.
There's a lot there I got aquote do you want to go now, or
should we start with definitions?
Speaker 1 (05:12):
oh, okay, um let brian respond first yeah, I feel
like brian, like this is liveenergy it is, it is, yeah, it's
rising.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
It's rising, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Julia, you're stepping into fields of where I
think we have expertise, thestory part of how you're
bringing things up.
I wrote a graduate thesis indysfunctional family system
therapy and studying people'shistory of family and that to me
is their story, like the peoplein places that have shaped them
in their lives and why they arewho they are today, like that
kind of stuff.
So that story piece, that'swhat.
(05:50):
What hits a chord, but what Iwant to just back up and ask um,
for our listeners and for thetopic that's coming, would you
mind defining how you wouldexplain what is emotion and
energy and how you put those twowords together, because one of
the reasons why I purchased yourbook two marches ago was just
the title of you putting the twowords together.
So what does emotion mean, whatdoes energy mean and why the
(06:11):
two words together?
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Absolutely so.
I am a neuropsychologist andI've done a lot of work in the
scientific, so I'm reallypublished in the scientific
literature and I've used fMRIand EEG.
I think the best way to thinkabout emotions is there is this
inner Google Maps.
Ok, so our emotions are likegoing through life and we're in
(06:33):
a conversation and then we havea feeling, we have an emotion.
It's like we should leave thisconversation and then we're
driving along the road of ourlife and we're like we should
stay in this job or we shouldleave this job or we should
pursue this thing.
So there's this kind of innerguidance system that I think
comes to us through the energyof our emotion.
Well, why am I using this?
(06:54):
So I think the best way tothink about emotions it's kind
of like the inner Google Maps ofour life.
Why am I using this term?
Energy, rather, is becauseemotions literally are
neurologic energy.
So the very reason I was ableto do my SMRI or EEG research is
because of the electrochemicalproperties of the brain and
subsequently, emotion.
(07:15):
Like we're able to detect thesesignals precisely because they
are energy.
One thing that's also kind ofinteresting about who I am is
I'm married to a nuclearengineer.
One thing that's also kind ofinteresting about who I am is
I'm married to a nuclearengineer, and so it's been very
fascinating to kind of come tothis conversation about energy
in different ways and alsoseeing the overlaps.
(07:35):
And so one of the things thathas really struck me is this
idea that really comes to usfrom the physicists that energy
can never be created ordestroyed.
It can only be transformed.
And so I think what a lot of usare doing is we have these
experiences of emotional pain,and I'll define that, so I use
this term emotional pain to runthe gamut of every single
(08:01):
negative feeling, from the mostmild to the most significant.
You know, I think, is theresome value to talking about the
complexity and the nuance ofemotions?
Absolutely, but I think a lotof times we make our emotions
way more complicated, equals,confusing than they need to be,
right.
So, if you think about it,there's things that either make
(08:21):
you feel more good or more bad,and there's a variations in
degree, but it's kind of binary,like does this make me feel
more good or does this make mefeel more bad?
And the things that make mefeel more bad, the circuits of
the brain that control thosefeelings, feelings we may call
irritation, frustration, anxiety, fear, rage, terror.
(08:43):
It's the same.
Neural circuits, yes.
And then I have this other termthat I use, that's called
emotional power, and emotionalpower simply means all the
things that we're after in thislifetime Connection, autonomy,
authenticity, intimacy, so thiskind of really safe sense of
(09:03):
self.
And so, going back to this ideaof the physicist is, it's like
a lot of us get into pain in ourlives chronically.
We're frustrated in the sameways about our life, about the
people around us, about thestate of the world, and instead
of trying to really transformthat relationship, that energy,
we try to deny it.
But you can't Like, if thatworked, I would say we should
(09:26):
all do it.
And so it becomes this very,very powerful but
counterintuitive conversations.
How do we intelligently workwith the energy of our pain so
that we can transform intoliving more empowered, connected
, creative, authentic lives?
Empowered, connected, creative,authentic lives.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Julia, do you find people willing or reluctant to
learn about their emotions andto explore their pain?
Speaker 1 (09:55):
You know, a lot of people will ask me because I'm
most sort of, formatively, atrauma expert and so trauma and
anxiety go hand in hand, and sopeople will say, like, is your
work depressing, right?
So I've worked with some of themost extreme trauma on the
planet combat.
I've worked with torturesurvivors.
I've worked with assaultsurvivors.
I've worked with bereavement ofall kinds.
(10:15):
I've worked with betrayal.
There's days when the work isabsolutely heavy but I could
weep every time I talk aboutthis.
The work is absolutely heavybut I could weep every time I
talk about this.
There's just so much vitality,so much hope.
You really see the power of thehuman spirit when it comes to
(10:36):
pain.
So part of the reason that I dofind working with pain so
energizing is when people are inpain and enough pain.
Frankly, they are willing tomove heaven and earth to get out
of it.
So I find people who are readyfor conversations like these
oftentimes are the ones who'vehad enough pain and they're
(10:58):
finally saying I'm done withthis.
Okay, that's kind of categoryone.
Category two is, I thinkevolution happens on all levels,
right.
We have physical evolution.
We're seeing all thistechnological evolution.
There's also emotionalevolution.
That's a thing right.
So I think you have people whoare on the planet right now who,
just like people, havedifferent heights or different
(11:19):
eye colors.
They have a different aptitudefor emotional intelligence,
emotional energy, and so theycan come to this conversation
more readily.
The way some people are justkind of more skilled in
mathematics or more skilled inother forms of language.
Does that make sense?
So the two, the kind of the twotranches of people that come to
this work relatively naturally,are people who have been in
(11:42):
enough pain where they're like Iknow I cannot outrun this pain,
so let me figure out how toreally transform it.
And then I also think there arepeople who are gifted with
emotion.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Have you experienced the inverse effect as well, that
in this place, where people arestruggling so much with the,
the, the, the world around them,the impact to their internal
world, that they're reluctant,they're more, they're in so much
pain that they can't deal withit?
The other swing.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
But those people?
So I have two ways to answerthis question.
Those people don't come to meprofessionally, right?
So someone who's like in a, ina frank avoidance which, frankly
, you know, I really believethere's something so healing and
so curative about neurology,right?
So avoidance is just a form ofmedicine, just like I'm in too
(12:33):
much pain, I can't deal withthis.
But the problem is chronicavoidance.
The treatment becomes worsethan the problem itself, right?
So chronic avoidance leads toso many deeper problems.
But the people will come to meprofessionally who are
implementing an avoidancestrategy.
But I have plenty of people inmy personal life who would much
(12:55):
rather not talk about pain, andI think those of us who come to
trauma as a career, those of uswho come to the mental health
field not all of us, but we comebecause of our family systems
and some of the things that havehappened in our family systems
that are very difficult and havenot been dealt with in the most
healthy way.
And so, yes, I do see peoplewho are in a lot of pain, who, I
(13:20):
think, continue to perpetuatepain against themselves and
other people because they won't.
They won't heal themselves.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
Okay, so I'm, I'm listening to hear the
professional side and then thepersonal application, and the
personal application.
I'm stuck with the image thatyou, that you offered us, and
that is how can you do this job?
You know people personally maybe asking you like how do you
listen to people in pain?
(13:48):
And doesn't that just, you know, offer?
Isn't that just a depressingway of life?
And I wonder, does then,talking about it and being able
to talk about the resiliency ofthe human spirit, does that
normalize pain in a differentway, or does that help?
Have you found that?
(14:09):
That?
Does that give access?
Even talking about it, does itgive access to people that
oftentimes are just, maybe, youknow, medicating themselves with
avoidance, as you mentioned?
Is there a normalizing to painthat you see, as you?
Speaker 1 (14:25):
mentioned, is there a normalizing to pain?
That, you see, Awesome question.
I think there's so many ways tocome into it, so let me come
into it this way and we'll see.
So I don't.
This idea is going to soundcounterintuitive, so just bear
with me.
I don't think that pain is goodor bad, I think it just is.
I think it is a force on thisplanet like gravity.
(14:46):
I think it is a force on thisplanet like time, it just is.
And I don't know where any ofus got the idea that somehow
being born into a human form onthis planet means that the
experience of pain somehow meansthe experience is going awry.
I think what it means to liveon a planet where there is all
this duality, right, there's,there's the pain and the power,
(15:09):
there's the good and the bad,there's the night and the day,
there's the big and the small itmeans that we experience pain.
So I do think that I don'tthink that we can it's like
saying, can we normalize gravity, and it just is.
Now what I will say is that Ithink it's been so.
I've watched this conversationon mental health in many ways,
(15:30):
depending on how you want tolook at it, for 20-some years or
40-some years, because I really, you know, started.
We used to read my father'stextbooks as bedtime stories.
I remember there would alwaysbe this little vignette at the
start of each chapter and hewould read that to me and we
would talk about that.
So I really kind of grew up onthe substance of psychology and
(15:51):
so it's been incredible to watchthe evolution of mental health.
It's been.
I I am I am very optimisticabout the future of humanity Now
, since obviously there's kindof been two major forces.
One is just the explosion ofhumanity Now, since obviously
there's kind of been two majorforces.
One is just the explosion oftechnology and then also, I
think, the pandemic kind ofreally accelerated the way
(16:12):
people are willing to show upand talk about their pain online
.
I think this is overwhelminglygood.
I do think what can happen ispeople can become
over-identified with their painand they become the wound.
So I talk a lot in my workabout you've got to have this
(16:33):
discernment to decide betweenthe pathological perseveration
in pain versus the powerfulprocessing of it.
Those are two very differentpaths, right?
So if you think about everysingle mental health condition,
and all these mental healthconditions exist on a continuum
right, so we can be a little bitanxious or we can go all the
(16:54):
way up on the continuum to beingdiagnostically anxious, for
example.
Yes, so if you think about anymental health condition, almost
every single mental healthcondition is underpinned by
rumination, by perseveration,this idea that I get in this
cognitive loop and I think, andI think, and I think, and I
(17:14):
think, and I think.
Now, what is surprising topeople, especially people who
their thinking is making themfeel really, really bad,
oversinking is always so.
There's a mask to my work,there's the mask to the brain,
because the brain is a patterndetector.
Oversinking is always becauseyou are under feeling.
Now, people will initially takeissue with this.
(17:35):
They'll go well, no, no, no,look at how bad I feel.
But I would say, tell me thefeeling you're feeling, and
typically it's kind of likethey're in this perseverative,
like there's just this kind ofnegative affect or they're
frustrated or anxious.
And the two big emotions thatpeople really don't want to
process and I get it, I'm livinghere in human form too is
(17:57):
humiliation and grief.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Julia, I got a question.
This is not podcast related,but I'm sure Nathan might edit
right smack dab in the middle ofthe whole thing.
This is just a question Doesn'tthe brain like binary so it can
make a choice for control andwould naturally avoid something?
On a spectrum?
It's a true like curiosity.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
question of mine Speaker 1.
Yeah, so let me.
This probably will be good forthe podcast, so can I this?
Probably will be good.
So can I zoom out and remind ifI get lost in the weeds, bring
me back to your question.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
I'll stay with you in the weeds.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
The brain, the brain, the best way, I think, the most
user-friendly way.
So I would say the brain is themost extraordinary machine that
we've ever been given.
It's like you pay intelligentlyoperate our cell phones or,
these days now, chat GPT, thenwe pay to operating the
machinery of our own brain andnervous system.
Okay.
So I think the most usefulmodel to understand how the
brain's actually working,creating reality for all of us,
(18:54):
is the brain is a patterndetector.
So your brain is going throughlife, going apple, apple, apple.
Fill in the blank.
Now it could be a banana, itcould be a Dunkin Donuts cup of
coffee, but if my brain predictsthat it's going to be an apple,
I will, in the present tense,materialize an apple.
Okay, in some ways this iswildly adaptive.
(19:16):
It's like if I'm listening to apodcast driving home and I
suddenly end up in my drivewayright, or if there's kind of
things that I can just kind of,for efficiency purposes, predict
, that's great.
The problem, of course, isthese pattern detecting
abilities of the brain are theexact opposite of evolution,
(19:37):
transformation and change.
Like apple, apple, apple, apple.
Well, if I want it to be abanana, I got to really
understand how to work with themachinery to change apple to
banana.
Okay, so you kind of asked me.
This question is like do peoplewant it to be either yes or
either no, either big or eithersmall, either black or either
white?
What is not an uncommon?
(19:59):
So you are right, the brainwants to predict apple, apple,
apple, apple.
But some of us myself included,if I'm being honest about my my
own struggles the, thesensation is chronic confusion
you are chronic uncertainty jeezso.
So it's like let me just make areally quick because I think
(20:20):
everyone should.
I stay in the relationship orshould I leave the relationship?
Some people will sit with thatquestion for 50 years my
grandparents.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
You know my grandparents.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I want to move in with you.
Oh, my gosh, you okay, um, ohthere's a lot of exhaling.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
There's a lot of breathing to regulate what
you're seeing, this you are umit's like you're narrating
what's in my head on a dailybasis, and that's why I feel
like energy rising resonated isbecause I think we see our all
of ourselves in it.
Yeah, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Because I think we see all of ourselves in it.
Yeah, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
You know I think it's like okay, and then I think
what happens to all of us iswe're outsourcing agency.
And we're not outsourcingagency because we're doing
anything wrong.
We're outsourcing agencybecause again there's this
evolution through time, throughgenerations, the brain is like a
little computer.
Through time, throughgenerations, we were.
(21:25):
The brain is like a littlecomputer and so into our
operating system we wereprogrammed with these childhood
codes.
So energy rising is broken downinto these eight neuro
energetic codes, kind of theseblueprints.
Childhood is an exquisite,extraordinary time where we
should be getting kind of theseinputs from the adults.
But I think the biggest thingone of maybe but if you I'd have
(21:55):
to think if it's the biggest Ithink we're missing a powerful
cultural conversation aboutthese rites of passages.
We, a lot of us, are adults inadult bodies, looking all mature
, but we're still runningchildhood scripts.
Now, there's no shame in this.
It's just like how do I reallyupgrade?
And then, and then we have tostart talking about we.
We, a lot of us, are pursuingpermission instead of power.
(22:21):
So this idea that, like otherpeople are going to, other
people are really going to likeit.
Other people are going to tellme that I'm good, other people
are going to tell it.
Can you hear the childhoodcoding in that Mama, can I have
a cookie?
Mama, can I sleep over in myfriend's house?
No, okay.
So it's like is it good enough?
(22:41):
Is it good enough enough?
Is it good enough?
So, if you listen to thefrequency, not the word, so one
of the biggest things, I thinkone of the biggest points in
energy rising and it's socounterintuitive.
I actually just posted I don'tI historically haven't done a
ton on social media I justposted this video.
It was like a little video andit's like already got like 130
(23:02):
000 views, so, and I didn't knowif people were going to get it,
but it is resonating.
One of the most counterintuitiveideas is we spend all of our
life at the level of situationthis thing that you said, this
thing that you did, this thingthat I didn't like, this thing
that happened this day that thisperson did X, y and Z right.
So we're like living at thelevel of situation this day that
(23:25):
this person did X, y and Zright.
So we're like living at thelevel of situation.
But the only reason, the onlyreason situation matters is
because of emotional energy.
So if a situation happened andit didn't make me feel anything.
In other words, I had nofeeling my brain would not
encode it, right, if you thinkof there's so much more data
coming at us each day.
But if somebody says somethingand it really offends me because
(23:47):
of that emotional energy, thebrain will then encode oh, that,
that thing that you said whenyou were wearing a pink shirt.
That really pissed me off.
Yes, and and the same thing canhappen with with positive events
too.
So, in order, and again,because the brain has these five
senses my ability to to see, myability to hear, my ability to
touch the five senses areextraordinary.
(24:09):
But the most powerful forces ofour life are not actually
detectable by the brain's fivesenses connection, love,
attunement, loyalty, betrayal,hope, faith.
Yes, they're not discernible.
So the truth of our life isactually happening at the energy
of emotion, but because we seeand we hear and we taste and we
touch, we fixate on situation,but to really transform our
(24:34):
lives, we've got to startthinking at the level of
emotional energy.
Now, as I was talking, I'm likeI'm dumping.
Sometimes I go too quickly, socan I stop for a moment?
No, yes, you can Of course,sometimes it makes sense in my
head and it doesn't make senseoutside of my head.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
Oh, you make complete sense.
First of all, and I appreciatethe things that you're saying
and I'm curious about thecomment that you said.
You know we see ourselves, wecan, we can all see ourselves in
the energy rising right, whathave you, since the book was
(25:11):
published and people are nowresponding, viewing, you know,
whatever you post and thingslike that what are you noticing
that was different than whateveryou intended when you wrote the
book and published the book.
So what has the last couple ofyears been like as people are
(25:31):
seeing themselves, are theresurprising stories?
Are there really common stories?
Can you draw a thread throughhow people see energy rising in
them?
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Yeah.
So one of the things is so I IHarvard Business Review
approached me and asked me towrite the book.
So I kind of came as sort of amiracle in my own life.
I was, you know, very gratefulfor the opportunity, but because
it all happened, I think in assort of a miracle in my own life
.
I was, you know, very gratefulfor the opportunity, but because
it all happened, I think, inthis sort of very organic and,
(26:06):
in a way, very quick way, Ididn't have a lot of
expectations.
Now, one of the things is Ihave been historically
approached to sometimes dopublic facing things like be an
expert on a reality TV show orbe on a daytime, you know, and I
I think it's wonderful ifthat's for other people.
That was not for me, so I wouldalways say no to those kinds of
(26:30):
opportunities.
It just didn't really alignwith how I conceptualize my work
.
So when Harvard Business Reviewcame and said, would you write
this book on really kind ofemotion, emotional pain and
emotional power and I had thisopportunity to talk to, I think,
some of the world's mostpowerful people about emotion in
this way it felt like such asacred opportunity and so I just
(26:55):
I wanted it to be really pure,like I wanted to really land for
people.
So I was really.
I don't know that I had a lot ofexpectations, other than when
I'm done writing this book, Ineed I need to feel like it's in
alignment with how I feel,because I think it's an honest
(27:17):
book in terms of how neurologyworks and I think I give a lot
of situations that resonate withall of us.
I think it landed for a lot ofpeople and the the relationships
that I've built in this energyof emotion have really been
extraordinary.
I mean, I I have now formedconnections with people all over
the globe and it's really been.
(27:38):
I think.
I think the most moving thinghas been people who said I
thought that I had to continueto avoid this pain for my whole
life, and now I'm realizing thatthis is really.
It's really calling me intopower.
You know, the same way we getphysically stronger is the same
way we get mentally stronger.
(27:58):
We have to work resistance, andso I think when people kind of
say, no, this is actually, thisis how you get stronger, I think
it gives.
I feel like it's an inspiringmessage.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
I feel like it's a hopeful message and, frankly,
it's a neurobiological message.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Nathan, my head is spinning.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Well, I have 15 questions to ask you, but what
is most?
You talk about getting stronger.
So I was telling Brian and Lindain this that I just went to a
PT because I've been having someAchilles issues for a long time
.
I'm a runner and basically whathe said is you're not lifting
enough weight to reallystrengthen the tendon the way it
(28:41):
needs to be strengthened.
And I wonder sometimes ifpeople approach you know their
emotional work the same way,where it's like, well, I'm doing
a decent amount of work, butit's like no, if you want real
change, if you want real lasting, you know building this thing
back up so it can support youthrough the distance of a
marathon of life or running race, like it's going to be a lot
(29:05):
harder.
And and so I'm, I'm curious howdo you coach people or how do
you encourage people to say, oh,you thought lifting 45 pounds
was good enough.
You have to be lifting two orthree times that much to really
make an impact on this thing.
That is, you know, not workingwell, does that make sense Like
(29:28):
cause?
At first, when my PT told methis was like oh my gosh, that's
going to be a lot of work.
He's like well, do you want itto get better or not?
Speaker 1 (29:34):
I was like.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
I do I do?
Okay, you know like.
So I don't take that metaphorand apply it Like how do you
help people get to that point ofrealizing that?
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Okay, let's put in the work.
Yes, so I think that if I hadto say a core source of pain, it
would be that our redemptionlies in other people, that other
(30:06):
people are going to hear usdifferently, that other people
are going to see us differently,that other people are going to
make us feel like we matter,like other people are going to
make us feel important.
Now, I am, most formatively, atrauma expert and so do horrible
, horrible, horrible thingshappen to us from the external
world.
Do our parents injure us?
Do strangers?
Yes, absolutely Without.
(30:27):
Okay, but the question thatwe're really answering in this
podcast is about the journey toemotional power.
So if I'm sick, I need healing,but then there's a time when
like, in other words, if you hadjust blown out your Achilles
that day, your PC wouldn't belike here's what you're going to
do.
You're going to put a hundredpounds on that baby?
Nope, so we've got to meet theconversation that we're actually
(30:47):
having.
So I do do a lot of couplestherapy, but I also like to use
I work in large corporateenvironments and team
environments and I like to usethe couple as a, as an analog,
because it's a diet.
It's a diet between two adults.
I think most people have beenin a partnership so people can
wrap their minds around it.
One of the biggest things whenpeople come to me for couples
(31:11):
work is they're saying at thecore, they'll start with the
situation.
They did this on Wednesday, youdid this on Tuesday.
But what they're really sayingis you don't love me enough.
No, you don't love me enough.
They did this on Wednesday, youdid this on Tuesday.
But what they're really sayingis you don't love me enough.
No, you don't love me enough.
You don't listen to me enough.
No, you don't listen to meenough.
You don't know you.
And I'll say OK, this is veryvalid and we will get to this.
(31:32):
But I have a question for youfirst.
Just not going to debate like.
You don't need to defendagainst this.
We're going to get there.
Tell me all of the ways thatprofoundly demonstrate the ways
in which you love yourself, theways in which you listen to
yourself, the ways in which youvalidate yourself.
(31:56):
And, overwhelmingly, people donot have an answer to that
question.
And so what starts to happen ison the journey to power is.
This is a cup, and we all needto be able to hold water in our
cup Right, and so it's just kindof like human nature, like we
need to be able to have water inour, in our metaphorical cup,
(32:17):
and so when we haven't done thework around emotional power,
there's no, there's no bottom,and so the water just keeps
rushing through.
And so I then need my partner,my boss, the people on social
media, to constantly hold theirhand there, because the second
they pulled their hand away, Iintuitively understand that
energy is going to drop, and I'mlike, because I haven't built
(32:40):
the musculature, the emotionalmusculature, to hold them myself
.
So what happens in a couplemore than any other?
So the most powerfulrelationship on earth is the
parent-child relationship.
Because of the neurobiology,the most complex relationship on
the planet is the long-termadult romantic relationship.
So what we're constantly sayingto our partners and you can see
we're saying this to people onsocial, everybody saying to
(33:02):
everybody, but most acutely toour partners I need you to hold
your hand in this certain way sothat I can feel my own goodness
.
Can you just think for a minuteabout how tangled this is to
move your mouth in a certain wayand do certain actions around
the house and nod your head in acertain way, so that I then
(33:25):
re-perceive that through my owneyeballs and then I can regulate
my nervous system.
It's like you could just turnthe corner and go left.
No, I'm gonna walk 15 milesaround to get to the very point.
So there's all these veryinteresting conversations about
co-regulation.
You know what we can haveanother podcast another day
(33:48):
about does co-regulation?
But a lot of people whatthey're calling co-regulation,
what they actually mean iscodependency.
I need you to behave in acertain way so that I can feel
feelings inside of my own body.
Well, the problem with this isthat our partners have very
different lives.
They have very differentneurotypes.
They have very differentpreferences.
They have attached very.
(34:09):
So one of the most interestingthings in couples work and again
I want you to extrapolate tothe global system Is at the core
.
Isn't it fascinating, in someways trag heartbreaking, that
people are saying the exact samething to each other.
So they're saying you don'treally, you don't really value
me, no, you don't really valueme.
(34:29):
And when you stop people longenough because that's the beauty
of couple therapy, so do youreally not value her?
And he's like no, I love hermore than anything else on the
planet, do you really so?
How does it get so tangled?
Well, it gets so tangledbecause we think other people
are supposed to deliveremotional experiences to us in a
(34:50):
way that neurologically isimpossible.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
In one of your newsletters you said that your
greatest addiction is to otherpeople's behavior.
To other people's behavior andI just thought that really hit
me, I really identified withthat.
And you go on to say about howyou know addiction is a
disturbed way of self-soothingand I'd never thought about that
before you know.
You talk about, like you know,with children, the way that they
(35:21):
self-soothe and as adults Ithink we do that as well.
But to think of other people'sbehavior as an addiction to get
their mouth to move a certainway, like you said, I was like
ouch, that hit me.
So I don't know where to gofrom there in terms of getting
over that addiction.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
You know the brain really is.
There's a really I think, againcounterintuitive question, but
a very, very powerful questionthat I think I hope people start
asking themselves, and it isthis Is my brain just a passive
consumer in my life?
Articles show up in front of myeyeballs, people show up in
(35:58):
front of my eyeballs, sounds popinto my ears, or is my brain a
creator of my eyeballs?
People show up in front of myeyeballs, sounds popping in my
ears, or is my brain a creatorof my life?
And so I think what's actuallyhappening most of this is
happening outside of consciousawareness is because the brain
is like the pattern detectorgoing apple, apple, apple.
My brain is creating theparameters so that Apple can be
(36:20):
generated.
Do you see what I'm saying?
So I can only tolerate again,because reality really rises on
the energy of emotion.
So I have a set capacity untilI train my nervous system for
this much intimacy, for thismuch authenticity, for this much
ability to be seen, for thismuch criticism, whatever, right.
(36:42):
So I will engineer theparameters so that I get an
apple.
And here's where you kind ofstart to see self-sabotage.
So one of the best ways tothink about self-sabotage and I
have a lot to say about this iswe start to become allergic to
(37:02):
the very energies we swear togod we it's the only thing we
want in life.
Yeah, so in other words, if mynervous system has not been
habituated, has not been trainedto hold the energy of joy,
things will show up in my lifethat are very joyful and I will
start to feel that and then Iwill torpedo it.
(37:22):
Why?
Because joy no longer lookslike an apple and it's got to be
an apple.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Those apples.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Julia, we've been dancing around the impact of
others and part of what I cameto the conversation with is how
much are people relying on theiremotional needs from others?
And in our work you know wework so much with individuals
and teams, like the individualsof teams, and so that team
dynamic of people looking for,you know, that artificial
(37:51):
foundation or the artificialbottom for their emotional needs
.
How reliant are people on thatexpectation that others are
going to meet what they need?
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Well, I think that they're profoundly.
I think, if you kind of look atthe whole global order, the
whole global order runs oncodependency.
I want you to think for asecond about every single
relational problem.
Okay, so, whether it's like inyour marriage, or with your kid,
or with a coworker, or withpeople that you're arguing with
(38:22):
on social media forum.
I am a relationship expert and Ithink part of my expertise
really comes that I've worked inso many variations of
relationship.
I've worked with couples, I'veworked with families, I've
worked in companies wherethey're family run businesses.
I've worked in the US politicalsystem and one of the beautiful
things about the brain is thebrain really is what I call the
(38:43):
great simplifier or the greatclarifier.
So all of these relationshipsituational problems it seems
like there's a lot ofvariability, a lot of complexity
can really be reduced to onequestion.
So people are really coming tome to say how can I get these
people to be different?
(39:03):
How can I get my kid to listento me more?
How can I get these people toclearly stop voting for this
political party and vote forthis political party?
How can I get these people Imean to be more motivated?
Whatever Goes on and on and on.
Just fill in the blank, butthat's not the truth of the
question.
So at least say the fullquestion.
The full question is how can Iget these people around me to be
(39:26):
different so that I don't haveto feel feelings I don't like to
feel inside of my own body?
Because the problem when my kiddoesn't listen to me is that I
now feel disrespected, I nowfeel afraid.
I come up with a whole storyabout how he's going to grow up
and not listen.
You know, it's like thenightmares never cease.
But what I think is reallyhelpful is clarity, is the
(39:49):
foundation of power.
So let me at least understandmy true problem.
My true problem is yourbehaving is making a feeling
inside of my own body that Idon't like.
So look at the, look at theglobal order, the, the, the
fundamental problem Everyonetalks about okay, we want peace,
we want peace.
I've done, I've spoken tothousands and thousands and
thousands of people at thispoint in my career the number,
(40:11):
because sometimes I'll likesurvey the audience or whatever
you say.
What do you want more thananything in this lifetime?
People will say peace.
Sometimes they might use adifferent word, like happiness,
but they're saying I want peace,okay, the global order, our
families, up to entire nations,run on doing my way.
Sometimes it's a polite versionof doing my way, but still
(40:35):
we're going to do it my way.
So until I I myself and this iswhere the power play comes from,
and I believe that this isexponential quantum power let me
metabolize my own resistance.
So let me figure out how tometabolize what other people
don't do in my way.
When other people writecomments on my social media
(40:55):
posts that I'm like oh, thatwasn't, that wasn't a very nice
thing to say.
Or when my husband doesn't dowhat I really think my husband
should do, or my kids arebehaving, let me metabolize that
energy, let me transmute thatenergy in my own body.
And let me not say anything toanyone about how they should
behave in their life before I'veactually figured out how to, in
(41:16):
a somatic way, move that energyin my own body.
Do you understand what I'msaying?
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Oh, oh yeah so it becomes.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
This thing is like how do I?
And the answer is expansion.
The answer is I've got to,because what happens when we?
I want you to think for amoment about the physics of this
.
So when somebody does somethingthat you don't like, they make a
comment.
You don't like they dosomething, don't you don't like
they make a comment.
You don't like they dosomething, don't you don't like?
(41:42):
Notice that there's like aclenching.
Can you feel that there's like?
So the work?
Because people want to talk,talk, talk, talk, talk about the
work.
And we should talk about thework.
But the work is also verysomatic and when it becomes
somatic it becomes wordless andfor those of us who are really
intellectual, like this kind ofwork can frustrate us.
(42:03):
But we live in a bind.
So when somebody does somethingthat frustrates us, a big piece
of the work is people willalways say well, what do I do?
You stay open.
So the reason I call energyrising energy rising is because
the human biology knowsexquisitely what to do with
(42:24):
waste.
We breathe in oxygen, we putout carbon dioxide, we eat food,
we pass the food Our skin cells.
They go away every 30 days orso.
Right, there's somethingsingular.
(42:44):
That happened with our negativeexperiences with emotion.
So the human nervous system isliterally built over many, many,
many, many years to moveemotions, to move sensation.
So what happens is when westart to feel a feeling inside
of our body that frightens us,instead of just letting quite
literally the energy risebecause if you pay attention to
where the energy starts in yourbody, it starts low.
If you think about, like, whensomebody like said something
(43:04):
really rude, you, it doesn't.
You never like, I felt it rightat the top of my head.
You're like, I feel it in mypelvis, I feel it in my gut, I
feel it in my chest.
Okay, so instead of just lettingit rise, what happens is we
clench and then and then thethinking starts why did they say
that to me?
(43:25):
What are they saying?
Did they really take meseriously?
Okay, well, all you're doinghere is keeping toxic emotional
energy in.
So the work is to say let mework with myself.
How do I stay open?
So what does staying open looklike?
(43:45):
Well, you, you can't start withyour spouse, you can't start
with your parents.
That's like being like Ihaven't worked out in about 14
years, but I would love tocompete in an ironman tomorrow.
It's like that won't work, okay, so not helpful what we?
need to do like all right, whenthe guy cuts me off at the stop
sign and I start the meeting,let me just and ask myself this
(44:09):
question what am I saying Icannot handle about this right
now?
Because the reason you protectis for protection and the reason
you protect is because youthink you cannot handle.
So what can you not handle?
And if you really sit with thequestion, like really sit with
it, you will start your thingswill start to come to you.
You won't like them, but itwill start to come.
like he thinks he thinks he'smore important than me.
(44:33):
He who does he think that?
Okay, well, okay, so say, okay,he thinks he's more important
than me.
So what?
Yep, but like you gotta, it'shard to come up with any like.
So what?
Well, I guess I don't reallylike that.
Okay, can you handle not likingthat?
(44:55):
Yes, okay, so it becomes thiswork that's deeply intelligent
but not deeply cerebral in thekind of high achieving,
overthinking sort of way.
Does this make sense?
Speaker 2 (45:09):
Yep, yeah, julia, this completely makes sense.
What I like about this last fewminutes is how you're bringing
it back down to the personLooking at the time.
Is there anything that you wantto leave with our listeners or
something that you haven'tbrought up yet?
Speaker 4 (45:25):
Or something we could ask you.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
Or a question that we can ask you To set you up to
say what you'd want to say saywhat you'd want to say.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
I think that I would maybe.
Hopefully this doesn't open awhole other can of worms, but
one of the things I think isimportant to understand is I
think the core negativeemotional experience lives in
this domain of anxiety.
Stress, fear, like these arejust kind of different words for
the same kind of emotionalenergy, and so what most of us
(46:03):
do is we try to combat thatanxiety or that stress or that
fear by creating certainty.
Okay, but the best definition Ican give you for anxiety as an
anxiety expert is certainty.
Anxiety, anxiety is really adisturbed relationship with
(46:28):
certainty.
So what happens to most of usis we think I just need to know,
I just need to figure it out, Ijust need to make sure this one
thing doesn't happen, I justneed to check and make okay.
The problem with this is themore that we obsessive and this
is such an important piece, butit is so counterintuitive the
(46:48):
more that we obsessively seekcertainty, actually, the more
anxious we become, the actuallythe more anxious we become.
So if you think about maximalexpressions of anxiety, which
are the diagnostic categories so, ocd, panic, ptsd, social
anxiety, generalized anxietywhat is sustaining all of these
(47:09):
disorders is pathologicalcertainty seeking.
I got to make sure this traumanever happens again.
I got to make sure that thestoverly is.
I got to make sure this traumanever happens again.
I got to make sure that thestoverly is off.
I got to make sure that thisdoes not happen.
I got to make sure that I'vechecked okay.
So then what happens in a lessdiagnostic kind of more it's
like I work with a lot of highachievers, a lot of leaders is
they get into these things thatI call the overs.
(47:31):
They start to overwork, theystart to overwork, they start to
overthink, they start tooverschedule, they start to
overextend, they start tooverachieve.
So they're overfunctioning.
They're feeling miserable aboutthis.
They're feeling actually quiteexhausted, quite numb, quite
hopeless, but they feel like ifthey stop overing it, the wheels
(47:52):
are going to fall off the bus.
But the neurologic truth isactually, the more that you are
pursuing certainty in this way,the worse you're going to feel,
and so it becomes this veryradical shift in consciousness.
It is actually quite powerfulin a lot of instances to say the
most powerful thing I can dohere is decide I do not need to
(48:13):
know.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Just let it go.
Speaker 4 (48:19):
And the key word that we're hearing from all of our
clients is uncertainty.
Like the levels of uncertaintyare so high right now and I
wonder things have been changing, but uncertainty has always
been with us.
So how do you speak about like,take it one step further with
the overing and the relationshipwith certainty?
Give me one more bounce.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
Okay.
So like, what do you?
What do you do about it?
Yeah Well, so I'm an absolute,enormous fan of hierarchy.
So I would say one of thethings you think you need to
know that you don't need to know.
Now, some things are going to belike a level 10, meaning like I
probably don't, but I can'tstop myself.
But some things are going to be, like imagine you're lifting
dumbbells like some things aregoing to be five pounds, some
(49:03):
things are going to be 15 pounds, some things are going to be 50
pounds, right, but let's sayyou're checking the New York
Times seven times a day, like,do you really think something
happened in the last three hoursthat you must know at this
precise moment?
Like, can you sit with theenergy of uncertainty in a body
and really watch the somaticresponse?
(49:24):
And it's like it tends to havelike an itchy quality to it,
like you just don't want to sitin your skin.
You, you want to move, you wantto.
What the behavior actually is is, it's a compulsion.
So I have the thought in myhead I need to, I need to know,
I need to know, I need to know.
That's the obsession.
Again, I'm using thismetaphorically, not
(49:45):
diagnostically I need to know, Ineed to know.
And then that thinking drivesbehavior, and so I do the thing.
I check my phone, I ask aquestion.
So there's no way to get topeace by information.
Speaker 2 (50:21):
And the information age is showing this to us in
spades.
So there has to be thiswillingness to say I don't need
to know.
Wow, thank you.
Thank you, I think, providesuch an easy handle for people
to catch what you're tossingover at them, and that level of
simplicity of something that'sprofoundly complex.
(50:42):
I highly value that.
Being in the people businessfor as long as we are, or as
long as we have been, that's themagic of the work that you're
doing is delivering theseuniversal complexities in such
simple form that people can atleast you know, pop that pill
(51:03):
and let it just settle in that.
I'm just that the way you didthat today brilliant.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
Five stars yeah, really good.
It's a gift that's helpful tohear.
Speaker 4 (51:16):
Yeah, yeah, I love it .
Speaker 3 (51:17):
Narrative intelligence so good yeah, dr
julia, I just wanted to saythank you so much, not only for
recording this, but one of uh,my biggest takeaways from your
book and your work was just theidea that energy is contagious
and without sounding creepy, Ithink about you and that idea
almost every day, that's notcreepy at all.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
That's very meaningful, okay, good.
Speaker 3 (51:39):
Well, because, and kind of what you're saying about
the person in the car.
So you know, as you can imagine, the morning is very stressful
with kids trying to get out ofthe house, and so I think about
I cannot imagine with four, bythe way, like I'm going to lose
my mind with two.
You don't even want to thinkabout it, but just like okay,
what energy am I giving off?
That is, the kids are absorbingand I'm better at it.
(52:01):
But then I'll have thesemoments of like okay, I need to
stop and think about this,Because if I'm stressed and
da-da-da and what about this?
Can I handle Interactions withBrian and Linda, interactions
with volunteer committees at theschool, or even like the
barista at Starbucks?
That idea was so profound to methat the energy that we give us
is contagious.
So do I want to be Grumpy Gusthat's just going through life
(52:24):
with my head down, or-.
Because that's so you hey, Iknow that's not me but anyway,
but it was really profound and Ithink that that simple idea is
something that has stuck with memore than any of the dozens and
dozens of guests that we'veinterviewed over the last year
and a half.
So thank you.
As Brian said, those littleeasily digestible nuggets, I
(52:44):
want to put it on a T-shirtsomehow.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
I will buy one from you.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
You'll buy one of your T-shirts.
Speaker 3 (52:50):
Perfect, we can copyright that Actually can I
share a quick story?
Please yes.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
Because I want to make it like I like people to
know that I walk this work and Ithink it's.
You know, we're all in thistogether.
So, I have two fairly youngkids, and one of my children
struggles.
This is like God's joke on me,Like I'm a psychologist.
I was like this is going to begreat.
We're going to like do all thisemotional intelligence work.
(53:19):
It's going to come fairlynaturally to me.
And then God was like take thisone, you know so, one of my, my
kids.
Really he's wonderful, but hestruggles a lot with emotion
regulation.
He's still very young, so hewanted to go to the batting
cages and it was a 90 degree dayin Chicago.
It's like the batting cages arejust like indirect.
It's like already like, I'm likegross I was like OK, I'm going
(53:41):
to be sure we'll go.
So I was like you have fivedollars, let's say so once you
use all the tokens.
Like so I'm like prepping, I'mlike doing the on ramp stuff.
Speaker 4 (53:58):
Well, he gets in this batting cage and the batting
cage said slow, they werethrowing like major league
fastball heat.
Speaker 1 (54:02):
So I'm watching right away.
I'm like, okay, this is notgonna go well.
So he's there and then, I don'tknow, like by some karmic fate,
there's now a line of peoplewho want to be in this like hot,
terrible batting cage.
So I'm like, okay, now there'sother people there of people who
want to be in this, like hot,terrible batting cage.
So I'm like, okay, now there'sother people there.
So he runs to the end of it.
He like runs out of all of hislike his balls and his choke and
he's like, ma, I need moremoney and I was like we're done
(54:24):
with the money.
And he just starts to lose inthe batting cage.
So I'm like, can you come outof the batting cage?
So he comes out and he's sweaty, he's hot, he's emotionally
dysregulated and he like is sofrustrated because he did not
spend all this money and did nothit one ball.
And he just starts to totallygo sideways and he starts saying
(54:44):
he's yelling, he's sayingreally like I think undesirable
things about himself.
So I can feel my own energy ofembarrassment.
Start to like rise and thatclenching starts to come.
I'm like just get, get, get thecar.
You know, but by the grace ofGod I have this thing.
It's just like just let it.
(55:04):
So I stayed home.
I go hey, whenever you're ready, I'm going to wait over there
in the car.
And so I wait in the car for awhile, don't know 10-15 minutes.
He comes in the car and it'sclear, like, do not speak to me.
So I, so I don't have any.
So I'm working on myself.
I don't need to engage with him.
Like just let him.
(55:24):
Like any engagement now is justmy need, frankly, for control.
So I just let him.
And it's a hot day, so I goin'Donuts.
I go to the drive-thru and Iknow that I can't speak to him,
but I'm thinking about my ownenergy, like how can I connect
to him in a way that really setsthe tone that shows him that
he's safe?
So I go to the drive-thru andat the drive-thru window I go to
(55:50):
the guy who hands me my drink.
I'm like do you want to hear ajoke?
And the guy's like sure.
And I was like what is a pig'sfavorite karate move?
And I was like I don't know.
And I was like a pork chop, sohe starts laughing, my feet
starts laughing, and at thatmoment the energy of the whole
thing had finally shifted.
Now, if I, 30 minutes ago,would have really kind of caved
(56:16):
to my own humiliation, my ownsense of righteousness, I didn't
even want to be at this lousybed and cave.
To begin with, you're not great, like all the things.
Speaker 4 (56:25):
I think a lot of our parents said to us or you start
to perpetuate thisintergenerational trauma.
Speaker 1 (56:31):
So when I was able, first and foremost, to just take
control of my own emotionalenergy and just be like, let me
go regulate myself in the carfor 10 minutes, it changed the
fate, not just of thatinteraction, but I think, the
fate at the risk of soundingdramatic of my child's life, you
know.
Because if we, if we don't comein and work with ourselves
(56:52):
first and then we try to engagewith these people who depend on
us, our children, our spouses,our teens, it's all sideways
that duncan employee.
Speaker 3 (57:02):
You changed his day at least too, I mean you think
you like that joke like.
I think he loved that joke.
I think he told it 15 moretimes that day but that's such a
great example of the energylike being contagious and it
doesn't.
You know, you've clearly donework on yourself like that If
we're not open to that, like youcan't be in the presence of
(57:24):
mind to tell a hilarious dadjoke no offense, but that was a
great one and I just love thatabout your book and there's all
the steps and the codes andeverything else that I think is
wonderful all the steps and thecodes and everything else that I
think is wonderful.
But that's such a simple ideathat I think it's great to leave
our listeners with is justthink about what's your energy
doing right now.
How do you change that?
Because what did you write?
The world needs an upgrade toits relational operating system
(57:45):
and I think it can start withthose little moments.
So thank you.
Speaker 4 (57:48):
Thank you.
Thank you.
This has been awesome.
Sincerely Thank you.
Speaker 1 (57:57):
Well, thank you again for having me.
Speaker 2 (57:57):
It's been a pleasure to speak with you and I hope
that we can stay connected.
Speaker 3 (58:00):
Thank, you Absolutely .
This has been awesome.
Another huge thank you to DrJulia Daganji for taking the
time to chat with us.
It was a lot of fun and I willabsolutely let you know if we
end up making those t-shirts.
And I wasn't kidding when Isaid I think about that idea of
energy being contagious.
I think about it every day.
(58:20):
In fact, just this morning, asI was trying to get my kids out
the door, I was thinking aboutthis.
As I was sending an email tosomeone, I was thinking about
this, and so perhaps thet-shirts are going to be a big
seller, who knows?
But I want to leave you with onethought from our podcast.
So this week, or maybe evenjust today, pay attention to
(58:41):
your emotional energy,especially when you're under
stress or there's a lot going on.
And before reacting to thatsituation, I want you to just
pause and ask yourself I'mquoting Dr Julia now, what am I
saying?
I cannot handle right now.
Okay, then see if you can stayopen, take a deep breath and
(59:01):
just let the energy rise ratherthan clenching I really related
to that or to that clenching orcontrolling others or the
situation.
Model this self-awareness withyourself, with your team, with
your family, and notice if thereare any shifts in the energy on
your life.
(59:22):
To learn more about Dr Julia,you can click the link in the
show notes or go todrjuliadeganjicom Again link in
the show notes to that.
You can also visit our website,leadershipvisionconsultingcom,
to get more resources related tothis episode or any of our
other episodes that provide youwith information about how to
build a strong and powerful teamculture.
(59:45):
We've been doing this work forover 25 years and have learned a
lot along the way as we havehelped teams and done some
really wonderful things.
Thank you for listening to theLeadership Vision Podcast.
Please share this with someoneyou think might benefit from our
work.
Go, follow us on all the socialchannels, sign up for our email
newsletter and again click thelink in the show notes, or visit
(01:00:07):
us on the web atleadershipvisionconsultingcom.
My name is Nathan Friberg and,on behalf of our entire team,
thanks for listening.
All right.
When the guy cuts me off at thestop sign and I start the, let
me just and ask myself thisquestion what am I saying?
I cannot handle about thisright now, because the reason
you protect is for protectionand the reason you protect is
because you think you cannothandle.
(00:20):
So what can you not handle?
And if you really sit with thequestion, like really sit with
it, you will start.
Things will start.
And if you really sit with thequestion like really sit with it
, you will start things willstart to come to you.
You won't like them, but itwill start to come.
Like he thinks he's moreimportant than me.
Who does he think that?
Okay, well, okay, so say, okay,he thinks he's more important
than me, so what?
But like you gotta, it's hardto come up with an answer Like
(00:40):
so what?
Well, I guess I don't reallylike that.
Okay, can you handle not likingthat?
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Yes, you are listening to the Leadership
Vision Podcast, our show helpingyou build positive team culture
.
Our consulting firm has beendoing this work for the past 25
years so that leaders arementally engaged and emotionally
healthy.
To learn more about our work,you can click the link in the
show notes or visit us on theweb at
leadershipvisionconsultingcom.
(01:08):
Hello everyone, my name isNathan Freeberg and today on the
podcast, we are joined by DrJulia Degangu, an expert in the
connection between our brains,our emotions and our
relationships.
Through her work as aneuropsychologist, she helps
people harness the power of thebrain to lead more emotionally
intelligent and fulfilling lives.
(01:29):
Dr Daganji has conductedresearch at institutions like
Harvard, columbia and theUniversity of Chicago, and her
insights have guided leaders insettings ranging from the White
House to internationalhumanitarian aid organizations
and all sorts of other companies.
We were first introduced to herwork through her incredible book
Energy Rising the Neuroscienceof Leading with Emotional Power,
(01:52):
a book that explores how ouremotional energy shapes every
part of our lives, from ourleadership to our closest
relationships.
In this episode today, weexplore how to transform
emotional pain into personalpower, why our brains crave
certainty even at the expense ofpeace, and what it really means
to regulate ourselves ratherthan try to regulate others.
(02:15):
Now, as you listen here today,pay special attention to Dr
Julia's distinction betweenprocessing pain and
perseverating in it adeceptively simple idea that
might just change how you thinkabout leadership, relationships
and resilience.
All right, let's pick it uphere and just get to know Dr
Julia a bit more.
A bit more about her backgroundand how she got into this work.
(02:37):
Enjoy.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
You know, and I think when we think about our lives
we all think about ourchildhoods.
So my father actually is apsychologist and I never thought
that I would become apsychologist.
My father wasn't territorial,in fact.
I really kind of grew up havingthese conversations about
trauma, about relationships,about addictions, conversations
(03:07):
about trauma, aboutrelationships about addictions.
So I had a very deep interestin psychology that, I think,
kind of came from my father.
I have one brother.
My brother is significantlydisabled, and so this idea of
service and sort of tending toother people's suffering was
very alive in my family system.
My father's brilliant.
My father has a lot of mentalhealth issues.
So I was kind of bothexplicitly and implicitly put to
(03:28):
this question, which sort ofsounds strange, but from a very
early age I kind of had thisquestion is what am I supposed
to do about pain?
I had a very genuine interestin people and so I thought, okay
, well, I'm going to become ajournalist.
I was a journalism major justbecause I like people's stories
and I am a natural listener.
And as I started to do somejournalism work I sort of felt
(03:52):
like that was too much on thesidelines and so I sort of
transitioned into political andorganizing work.
So I did a lot of politicalwork.
I actually started my career atthe White House.
I've worked on several, youknow, presidential campaigns,
gubernatorial campaigns,congressional campaigns, and I
think a lot of people are goingto resonate with this.
(04:12):
I got tired of the politics, ofpolitics, but was still very
interested in these kind ofhuman stories, and so I sort of
transitioned to internationalhumanitarian aid work and what I
kind of realized is likewhether I was in Chicago,
whether I was in DC, whether Iwas in Detroit, whether I was in
Nairobi or Lagos, loss alwaysfelt like loss, hope always felt
(04:36):
like hope, betrayal always feltlike betrayal.
And so I became very interestedin this question of emotion,
really.
And so what are we supposed todo specifically about painful
emotion?
And then that's what kind ofled me to sort of start to ask
these scientific questions,which then led me to this PhD
program.
So never in a million years didI think I would become a
neuropsychologist and sort ofthink about really these
(04:59):
questions of my childhood atthis level of my career.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Wow's cool.
There's a lot there I got aquote do you want to go now, or
should we start with definitions?
Speaker 1 (05:12):
oh, okay, um let brian respond first yeah, I feel
like brian, like this is liveenergy it is, it is, yeah, it's
rising.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
It's rising, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Julia, you're stepping into fields of where I
think we have expertise, thestory part of how you're
bringing things up.
I wrote a graduate thesis indysfunctional family system
therapy and studying people'shistory of family and that to me
is their story, like the peoplein places that have shaped them
in their lives and why they arewho they are today, like that
kind of stuff.
So that story piece, that'swhat.
(05:50):
What hits a chord, but what Iwant to just back up and ask um,
for our listeners and for thetopic that's coming, would you
mind defining how you wouldexplain what is emotion and
energy and how you put those twowords together, because one of
the reasons why I purchased yourbook two marches ago was just
the title of you putting the twowords together.
So what does emotion mean, whatdoes energy mean and why the
(06:11):
two words together?
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Absolutely so.
I am a neuropsychologist andI've done a lot of work in the
scientific, so I'm reallypublished in the scientific
literature and I've used fMRIand EEG.
I think the best way to thinkabout emotions is there is this
inner Google Maps.
Ok, so our emotions are likegoing through life and we're in
(06:33):
a conversation and then we havea feeling, we have an emotion.
It's like we should leave thisconversation and then we're
driving along the road of ourlife and we're like we should
stay in this job or we shouldleave this job or we should
pursue this thing.
So there's this kind of innerguidance system that I think
comes to us through the energyof our emotion.
Well, why am I using this?
(06:54):
So I think the best way tothink about emotions it's kind
of like the inner Google Maps ofour life.
Why am I using this term?
Energy, rather, is becauseemotions literally are
neurologic energy.
So the very reason I was ableto do my SMRI or EEG research is
because of the electrochemicalproperties of the brain and
subsequently, emotion.
(07:15):
Like we're able to detect thesesignals precisely because they
are energy.
One thing that's also kind ofinteresting about who I am is
I'm married to a nuclearengineer.
One thing that's also kind ofinteresting about who I am is
I'm married to a nuclearengineer, and so it's been very
fascinating to kind of come tothis conversation about energy
in different ways and alsoseeing the overlaps.
(07:35):
And so one of the things thathas really struck me is this
idea that really comes to usfrom the physicists that energy
can never be created ordestroyed.
It can only be transformed.
And so I think what a lot of usare doing is we have these
experiences of emotional pain,and I'll define that, so I use
this term emotional pain to runthe gamut of every single
(08:01):
negative feeling, from the mostmild to the most significant.
You know, I think, is theresome value to talking about the
complexity and the nuance ofemotions?
Absolutely, but I think a lotof times we make our emotions
way more complicated, equals,confusing than they need to be,
right.
So, if you think about it,there's things that either make
(08:21):
you feel more good or more bad,and there's a variations in
degree, but it's kind of binary,like does this make me feel
more good or does this make mefeel more bad?
And the things that make mefeel more bad, the circuits of
the brain that control thosefeelings, feelings we may call
irritation, frustration, anxiety, fear, rage, terror.
(08:43):
It's the same.
Neural circuits, yes.
And then I have this other termthat I use, that's called
emotional power, and emotionalpower simply means all the
things that we're after in thislifetime Connection, autonomy,
authenticity, intimacy, so thiskind of really safe sense of
(09:03):
self.
And so, going back to this ideaof the physicist is, it's like
a lot of us get into pain in ourlives chronically.
We're frustrated in the sameways about our life, about the
people around us, about thestate of the world, and instead
of trying to really transformthat relationship, that energy,
we try to deny it.
But you can't Like, if thatworked, I would say we should
(09:26):
all do it.
And so it becomes this very,very powerful but
counterintuitive conversations.
How do we intelligently workwith the energy of our pain so
that we can transform intoliving more empowered, connected
, creative, authentic lives?
Empowered, connected, creative,authentic lives.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Julia, do you find people willing or reluctant to
learn about their emotions andto explore their pain?
Speaker 1 (09:55):
You know, a lot of people will ask me because I'm
most sort of, formatively, atrauma expert and so trauma and
anxiety go hand in hand, and sopeople will say, like, is your
work depressing, right?
So I've worked with some of themost extreme trauma on the
planet combat.
I've worked with torturesurvivors.
I've worked with assaultsurvivors.
I've worked with bereavement ofall kinds.
(10:15):
I've worked with betrayal.
There's days when the work isabsolutely heavy but I could
weep every time I talk aboutthis.
The work is absolutely heavybut I could weep every time I
talk about this.
There's just so much vitality,so much hope.
You really see the power of thehuman spirit when it comes to
(10:36):
pain.
So part of the reason that I dofind working with pain so
energizing is when people are inpain and enough pain.
Frankly, they are willing tomove heaven and earth to get out
of it.
So I find people who are readyfor conversations like these
oftentimes are the ones who'vehad enough pain and they're
(10:58):
finally saying I'm done withthis.
Okay, that's kind of categoryone.
Category two is, I thinkevolution happens on all levels,
right.
We have physical evolution.
We're seeing all thistechnological evolution.
There's also emotionalevolution.
That's a thing right.
So I think you have people whoare on the planet right now who,
just like people, havedifferent heights or different
(11:19):
eye colors.
They have a different aptitudefor emotional intelligence,
emotional energy, and so theycan come to this conversation
more readily.
The way some people are justkind of more skilled in
mathematics or more skilled inother forms of language.
Does that make sense?
So the two, the kind of the twotranches of people that come to
this work relatively naturally,are people who have been in
(11:42):
enough pain where they're like Iknow I cannot outrun this pain,
so let me figure out how toreally transform it.
And then I also think there arepeople who are gifted with
emotion.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Have you experienced the inverse effect as well, that
in this place, where people arestruggling so much with the,
the, the, the world around them,the impact to their internal
world, that they're reluctant,they're more, they're in so much
pain that they can't deal withit?
The other swing.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
But those people?
So I have two ways to answerthis question.
Those people don't come to meprofessionally, right?
So someone who's like in a, ina frank avoidance which, frankly
, you know, I really believethere's something so healing and
so curative about neurology,right?
So avoidance is just a form ofmedicine, just like I'm in too
(12:33):
much pain, I can't deal withthis.
But the problem is chronicavoidance.
The treatment becomes worsethan the problem itself, right?
So chronic avoidance leads toso many deeper problems.
But the people will come to meprofessionally who are
implementing an avoidancestrategy.
But I have plenty of people inmy personal life who would much
(12:55):
rather not talk about pain, andI think those of us who come to
trauma as a career, those of uswho come to the mental health
field not all of us, but we comebecause of our family systems
and some of the things that havehappened in our family systems
that are very difficult and havenot been dealt with in the most
healthy way.
And so, yes, I do see peoplewho are in a lot of pain, who, I
(13:20):
think, continue to perpetuatepain against themselves and
other people because they won't.
They won't heal themselves.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
Okay, so I'm, I'm listening to hear the
professional side and then thepersonal application, and the
personal application.
I'm stuck with the image thatyou, that you offered us, and
that is how can you do this job?
You know people personally maybe asking you like how do you
listen to people in pain?
(13:48):
And doesn't that just, you know, offer?
Isn't that just a depressingway of life?
And I wonder, does then,talking about it and being able
to talk about the resiliency ofthe human spirit, does that
normalize pain in a differentway, or does that help?
Have you found that?
(14:09):
That?
Does that give access?
Even talking about it, does itgive access to people that
oftentimes are just, maybe, youknow, medicating themselves with
avoidance, as you mentioned?
Is there a normalizing to painthat you see, as you?
Speaker 1 (14:25):
mentioned, is there a normalizing to pain?
That, you see, Awesome question.
I think there's so many ways tocome into it, so let me come
into it this way and we'll see.
So I don't.
This idea is going to soundcounterintuitive, so just bear
with me.
I don't think that pain is goodor bad, I think it just is.
I think it is a force on thisplanet like gravity.
(14:46):
I think it is a force on thisplanet like time, it just is.
And I don't know where any ofus got the idea that somehow
being born into a human form onthis planet means that the
experience of pain somehow meansthe experience is going awry.
I think what it means to liveon a planet where there is all
this duality, right, there's,there's the pain and the power,
(15:09):
there's the good and the bad,there's the night and the day,
there's the big and the small itmeans that we experience pain.
So I do think that I don'tthink that we can it's like
saying, can we normalize gravity, and it just is.
Now what I will say is that Ithink it's been so.
I've watched this conversationon mental health in many ways,
(15:30):
depending on how you want tolook at it, for 20-some years or
40-some years, because I really, you know, started.
We used to read my father'stextbooks as bedtime stories.
I remember there would alwaysbe this little vignette at the
start of each chapter and hewould read that to me and we
would talk about that.
So I really kind of grew up onthe substance of psychology and
(15:51):
so it's been incredible to watchthe evolution of mental health.
It's been.
I I am I am very optimisticabout the future of humanity Now
, since obviously there's kindof been two major forces.
One is just the explosion ofhumanity Now, since obviously
there's kind of been two majorforces.
One is just the explosion oftechnology and then also, I
think, the pandemic kind ofreally accelerated the way
(16:12):
people are willing to show upand talk about their pain online
.
I think this is overwhelminglygood.
I do think what can happen ispeople can become
over-identified with their painand they become the wound.
So I talk a lot in my workabout you've got to have this
(16:33):
discernment to decide betweenthe pathological perseveration
in pain versus the powerfulprocessing of it.
Those are two very differentpaths, right?
So if you think about everysingle mental health condition,
and all these mental healthconditions exist on a continuum
right, so we can be a little bitanxious or we can go all the
(16:54):
way up on the continuum to beingdiagnostically anxious, for
example.
Yes, so if you think about anymental health condition, almost
every single mental healthcondition is underpinned by
rumination, by perseveration,this idea that I get in this
cognitive loop and I think, andI think, and I think, and I
(17:14):
think, and I think.
Now, what is surprising topeople, especially people who
their thinking is making themfeel really, really bad,
oversinking is always so.
There's a mask to my work,there's the mask to the brain,
because the brain is a patterndetector.
Oversinking is always becauseyou are under feeling.
Now, people will initially takeissue with this.
(17:35):
They'll go well, no, no, no,look at how bad I feel.
But I would say, tell me thefeeling you're feeling, and
typically it's kind of likethey're in this perseverative,
like there's just this kind ofnegative affect or they're
frustrated or anxious.
And the two big emotions thatpeople really don't want to
process and I get it, I'm livinghere in human form too is
(17:57):
humiliation and grief.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Julia, I got a question.
This is not podcast related,but I'm sure Nathan might edit
right smack dab in the middle ofthe whole thing.
This is just a question Doesn'tthe brain like binary so it can
make a choice for control andwould naturally avoid something?
On a spectrum?
It's a true like curiosity.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
question of mine Speaker 1.
Yeah, so let me.
This probably will be good forthe podcast, so can I this?
Probably will be good.
So can I zoom out and remind ifI get lost in the weeds, bring
me back to your question.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
I'll stay with you in the weeds.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
The brain, the brain, the best way, I think, the most
user-friendly way.
So I would say the brain is themost extraordinary machine that
we've ever been given.
It's like you pay intelligentlyoperate our cell phones or,
these days now, chat GPT, thenwe pay to operating the
machinery of our own brain andnervous system.
Okay.
So I think the most usefulmodel to understand how the
brain's actually working,creating reality for all of us,
(18:54):
is the brain is a patterndetector.
So your brain is going throughlife, going apple, apple, apple.
Fill in the blank.
Now it could be a banana, itcould be a Dunkin Donuts cup of
coffee, but if my brain predictsthat it's going to be an apple,
I will, in the present tense,materialize an apple.
Okay, in some ways this iswildly adaptive.
(19:16):
It's like if I'm listening to apodcast driving home and I
suddenly end up in my drivewayright, or if there's kind of
things that I can just kind of,for efficiency purposes, predict
, that's great.
The problem, of course, isthese pattern detecting
abilities of the brain are theexact opposite of evolution,
(19:37):
transformation and change.
Like apple, apple, apple, apple.
Well, if I want it to be abanana, I got to really
understand how to work with themachinery to change apple to
banana.
Okay, so you kind of asked me.
This question is like do peoplewant it to be either yes or
either no, either big or eithersmall, either black or either
white?
What is not an uncommon?
(19:59):
So you are right, the brainwants to predict apple, apple,
apple, apple.
But some of us myself included,if I'm being honest about my my
own struggles the, thesensation is chronic confusion
you are chronic uncertainty jeezso.
So it's like let me just make areally quick because I think
(20:20):
everyone should.
I stay in the relationship orshould I leave the relationship?
Some people will sit with thatquestion for 50 years my
grandparents.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
You know my grandparents.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I want to move in with you.
Oh, my gosh, you okay, um, ohthere's a lot of exhaling.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
There's a lot of breathing to regulate what
you're seeing, this you are umit's like you're narrating
what's in my head on a dailybasis, and that's why I feel
like energy rising resonated isbecause I think we see our all
of ourselves in it.
Yeah, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Because I think we see all of ourselves in it.
Yeah, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
You know I think it's like okay, and then I think
what happens to all of us iswe're outsourcing agency.
And we're not outsourcingagency because we're doing
anything wrong.
We're outsourcing agencybecause again there's this
evolution through time, throughgenerations, the brain is like a
little computer.
Through time, throughgenerations, we were.
(21:25):
The brain is like a littlecomputer and so into our
operating system we wereprogrammed with these childhood
codes.
So energy rising is broken downinto these eight neuro
energetic codes, kind of theseblueprints.
Childhood is an exquisite,extraordinary time where we
should be getting kind of theseinputs from the adults.
But I think the biggest thingone of maybe but if you I'd have
(21:55):
to think if it's the biggest Ithink we're missing a powerful
cultural conversation aboutthese rites of passages.
We, a lot of us, are adults inadult bodies, looking all mature
, but we're still runningchildhood scripts.
Now, there's no shame in this.
It's just like how do I reallyupgrade?
And then, and then we have tostart talking about we.
We, a lot of us, are pursuingpermission instead of power.
(22:21):
So this idea that, like otherpeople are going to, other
people are really going to likeit.
Other people are going to tellme that I'm good, other people
are going to tell it.
Can you hear the childhoodcoding in that Mama, can I have
a cookie?
Mama, can I sleep over in myfriend's house?
No, okay.
So it's like is it good enough?
(22:41):
Is it good enough enough?
Is it good enough?
So, if you listen to thefrequency, not the word, so one
of the biggest things, I thinkone of the biggest points in
energy rising and it's socounterintuitive.
I actually just posted I don'tI historically haven't done a
ton on social media I justposted this video.
It was like a little video andit's like already got like 130
(23:02):
000 views, so, and I didn't knowif people were going to get it,
but it is resonating.
One of the most counterintuitiveideas is we spend all of our
life at the level of situationthis thing that you said, this
thing that you did, this thingthat I didn't like, this thing
that happened this day that thisperson did X, y and Z right.
So we're like living at thelevel of situation this day that
(23:25):
this person did X, y and Zright.
So we're like living at thelevel of situation.
But the only reason, the onlyreason situation matters is
because of emotional energy.
So if a situation happened andit didn't make me feel anything.
In other words, I had nofeeling my brain would not
encode it, right, if you thinkof there's so much more data
coming at us each day.
But if somebody says somethingand it really offends me because
(23:47):
of that emotional energy, thebrain will then encode oh, that,
that thing that you said whenyou were wearing a pink shirt.
That really pissed me off.
Yes, and and the same thing canhappen with with positive events
too.
So, in order, and again,because the brain has these five
senses my ability to to see, myability to hear, my ability to
touch the five senses areextraordinary.
(24:09):
But the most powerful forces ofour life are not actually
detectable by the brain's fivesenses connection, love,
attunement, loyalty, betrayal,hope, faith.
Yes, they're not discernible.
So the truth of our life isactually happening at the energy
of emotion, but because we seeand we hear and we taste and we
touch, we fixate on situation,but to really transform our
(24:34):
lives, we've got to startthinking at the level of
emotional energy.
Now, as I was talking, I'm likeI'm dumping.
Sometimes I go too quickly, socan I stop for a moment?
No, yes, you can Of course,sometimes it makes sense in my
head and it doesn't make senseoutside of my head.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
Oh, you make complete sense.
First of all, and I appreciatethe things that you're saying
and I'm curious about thecomment that you said.
You know we see ourselves, wecan, we can all see ourselves in
the energy rising right, whathave you, since the book was
(25:11):
published and people are nowresponding, viewing, you know,
whatever you post and thingslike that what are you noticing
that was different than whateveryou intended when you wrote the
book and published the book.
So what has the last couple ofyears been like as people are
(25:31):
seeing themselves, are theresurprising stories?
Are there really common stories?
Can you draw a thread throughhow people see energy rising in
them?
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Yeah.
So one of the things is so I IHarvard Business Review
approached me and asked me towrite the book.
So I kind of came as sort of amiracle in my own life.
I was, you know, very gratefulfor the opportunity, but because
it all happened, I think in assort of a miracle in my own life
.
I was, you know, very gratefulfor the opportunity, but because
it all happened, I think, inthis sort of very organic and,
(26:06):
in a way, very quick way, Ididn't have a lot of
expectations.
Now, one of the things is Ihave been historically
approached to sometimes dopublic facing things like be an
expert on a reality TV show orbe on a daytime, you know, and I
I think it's wonderful ifthat's for other people.
That was not for me, so I wouldalways say no to those kinds of
(26:30):
opportunities.
It just didn't really alignwith how I conceptualize my work
.
So when Harvard Business Reviewcame and said, would you write
this book on really kind ofemotion, emotional pain and
emotional power and I had thisopportunity to talk to, I think,
some of the world's mostpowerful people about emotion in
this way it felt like such asacred opportunity and so I just
(26:55):
I wanted it to be really pure,like I wanted to really land for
people.
So I was really.
I don't know that I had a lot ofexpectations, other than when
I'm done writing this book, Ineed I need to feel like it's in
alignment with how I feel,because I think it's an honest
(27:17):
book in terms of how neurologyworks and I think I give a lot
of situations that resonate withall of us.
I think it landed for a lot ofpeople and the the relationships
that I've built in this energyof emotion have really been
extraordinary.
I mean, I I have now formedconnections with people all over
the globe and it's really been.
(27:38):
I think.
I think the most moving thinghas been people who said I
thought that I had to continueto avoid this pain for my whole
life, and now I'm realizing thatthis is really.
It's really calling me intopower.
You know, the same way we getphysically stronger is the same
way we get mentally stronger.
(27:58):
We have to work resistance, andso I think when people kind of
say, no, this is actually, thisis how you get stronger, I think
it gives.
I feel like it's an inspiringmessage.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
I feel like it's a hopeful message and, frankly,
it's a neurobiological message.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Nathan, my head is spinning.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Well, I have 15 questions to ask you, but what
is most?
You talk about getting stronger.
So I was telling Brian and Lindain this that I just went to a
PT because I've been having someAchilles issues for a long time
.
I'm a runner and basically whathe said is you're not lifting
enough weight to reallystrengthen the tendon the way it
(28:41):
needs to be strengthened.
And I wonder sometimes ifpeople approach you know their
emotional work the same way,where it's like, well, I'm doing
a decent amount of work, butit's like no, if you want real
change, if you want real lasting, you know building this thing
back up so it can support youthrough the distance of a
marathon of life or running race, like it's going to be a lot
(29:05):
harder.
And and so I'm, I'm curious howdo you coach people or how do
you encourage people to say, oh,you thought lifting 45 pounds
was good enough.
You have to be lifting two orthree times that much to really
make an impact on this thing.
That is, you know, not workingwell, does that make sense Like
(29:28):
cause?
At first, when my PT told methis was like oh my gosh, that's
going to be a lot of work.
He's like well, do you want itto get better or not?
Speaker 1 (29:34):
I was like.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
I do I do?
Okay, you know like.
So I don't take that metaphorand apply it Like how do you
help people get to that point ofrealizing that?
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Okay, let's put in the work.
Yes, so I think that if I hadto say a core source of pain, it
would be that our redemptionlies in other people, that other
(30:06):
people are going to hear usdifferently, that other people
are going to see us differently,that other people are going to
make us feel like we matter,like other people are going to
make us feel important.
Now, I am, most formatively, atrauma expert and so do horrible
, horrible, horrible thingshappen to us from the external
world.
Do our parents injure us?
Do strangers?
Yes, absolutely Without.
(30:27):
Okay, but the question thatwe're really answering in this
podcast is about the journey toemotional power.
So if I'm sick, I need healing,but then there's a time when
like, in other words, if you hadjust blown out your Achilles
that day, your PC wouldn't belike here's what you're going to
do.
You're going to put a hundredpounds on that baby?
Nope, so we've got to meet theconversation that we're actually
(30:47):
having.
So I do do a lot of couplestherapy, but I also like to use
I work in large corporateenvironments and team
environments and I like to usethe couple as a, as an analog,
because it's a diet.
It's a diet between two adults.
I think most people have beenin a partnership so people can
wrap their minds around it.
One of the biggest things whenpeople come to me for couples
(31:11):
work is they're saying at thecore, they'll start with the
situation.
They did this on Wednesday, youdid this on Tuesday.
But what they're really sayingis you don't love me enough.
No, you don't love me enough.
They did this on Wednesday, youdid this on Tuesday.
But what they're really sayingis you don't love me enough.
No, you don't love me enough.
You don't listen to me enough.
No, you don't listen to meenough.
You don't know you.
And I'll say OK, this is veryvalid and we will get to this.
(31:32):
But I have a question for youfirst.
Just not going to debate like.
You don't need to defendagainst this.
We're going to get there.
Tell me all of the ways thatprofoundly demonstrate the ways
in which you love yourself, theways in which you listen to
yourself, the ways in which youvalidate yourself.
(31:56):
And, overwhelmingly, people donot have an answer to that
question.
And so what starts to happen ison the journey to power is.
This is a cup, and we all needto be able to hold water in our
cup Right, and so it's just kindof like human nature, like we
need to be able to have water inour, in our metaphorical cup,
(32:17):
and so when we haven't done thework around emotional power,
there's no, there's no bottom,and so the water just keeps
rushing through.
And so I then need my partner,my boss, the people on social
media, to constantly hold theirhand there, because the second
they pulled their hand away, Iintuitively understand that
energy is going to drop, and I'mlike, because I haven't built
(32:40):
the musculature, the emotionalmusculature, to hold them myself
.
So what happens in a couplemore than any other?
So the most powerfulrelationship on earth is the
parent-child relationship.
Because of the neurobiology,the most complex relationship on
the planet is the long-termadult romantic relationship.
So what we're constantly sayingto our partners and you can see
we're saying this to people onsocial, everybody saying to
(33:02):
everybody, but most acutely toour partners I need you to hold
your hand in this certain way sothat I can feel my own goodness
.
Can you just think for a minuteabout how tangled this is to
move your mouth in a certain wayand do certain actions around
the house and nod your head in acertain way, so that I then
(33:25):
re-perceive that through my owneyeballs and then I can regulate
my nervous system.
It's like you could just turnthe corner and go left.
No, I'm gonna walk 15 milesaround to get to the very point.
So there's all these veryinteresting conversations about
co-regulation.
You know what we can haveanother podcast another day
(33:48):
about does co-regulation?
But a lot of people whatthey're calling co-regulation,
what they actually mean iscodependency.
I need you to behave in acertain way so that I can feel
feelings inside of my own body.
Well, the problem with this isthat our partners have very
different lives.
They have very differentneurotypes.
They have very differentpreferences.
They have attached very.
(34:09):
So one of the most interestingthings in couples work and again
I want you to extrapolate tothe global system Is at the core
.
Isn't it fascinating, in someways trag heartbreaking, that
people are saying the exact samething to each other.
So they're saying you don'treally, you don't really value
me, no, you don't really valueme.
(34:29):
And when you stop people longenough because that's the beauty
of couple therapy, so do youreally not value her?
And he's like no, I love hermore than anything else on the
planet, do you really so?
How does it get so tangled?
Well, it gets so tangledbecause we think other people
are supposed to deliveremotional experiences to us in a
(34:50):
way that neurologically isimpossible.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
In one of your newsletters you said that your
greatest addiction is to otherpeople's behavior.
To other people's behavior andI just thought that really hit
me, I really identified withthat.
And you go on to say about howyou know addiction is a
disturbed way of self-soothingand I'd never thought about that
before you know.
You talk about, like you know,with children, the way that they
(35:21):
self-soothe and as adults Ithink we do that as well.
But to think of other people'sbehavior as an addiction to get
their mouth to move a certainway, like you said, I was like
ouch, that hit me.
So I don't know where to gofrom there in terms of getting
over that addiction.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
You know the brain really is.
There's a really I think, againcounterintuitive question, but
a very, very powerful questionthat I think I hope people start
asking themselves, and it isthis Is my brain just a passive
consumer in my life?
Articles show up in front of myeyeballs, people show up in
(35:58):
front of my eyeballs, sounds popinto my ears, or is my brain a
creator of my eyeballs?
People show up in front of myeyeballs, sounds popping in my
ears, or is my brain a creatorof my life?
And so I think what's actuallyhappening most of this is
happening outside of consciousawareness is because the brain
is like the pattern detectorgoing apple, apple, apple.
My brain is creating theparameters so that Apple can be
(36:20):
generated.
Do you see what I'm saying?
So I can only tolerate again,because reality really rises on
the energy of emotion.
So I have a set capacity untilI train my nervous system for
this much intimacy, for thismuch authenticity, for this much
ability to be seen, for thismuch criticism, whatever, right.
(36:42):
So I will engineer theparameters so that I get an
apple.
And here's where you kind ofstart to see self-sabotage.
So one of the best ways tothink about self-sabotage and I
have a lot to say about this iswe start to become allergic to
(37:02):
the very energies we swear togod we it's the only thing we
want in life.
Yeah, so in other words, if mynervous system has not been
habituated, has not been trainedto hold the energy of joy,
things will show up in my lifethat are very joyful and I will
start to feel that and then Iwill torpedo it.
(37:22):
Why?
Because joy no longer lookslike an apple and it's got to be
an apple.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Those apples.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Julia, we've been dancing around the impact of
others and part of what I cameto the conversation with is how
much are people relying on theiremotional needs from others?
And in our work you know wework so much with individuals
and teams, like the individualsof teams, and so that team
dynamic of people looking for,you know, that artificial
(37:51):
foundation or the artificialbottom for their emotional needs
.
How reliant are people on thatexpectation that others are
going to meet what they need?
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Well, I think that they're profoundly.
I think, if you kind of look atthe whole global order, the
whole global order runs oncodependency.
I want you to think for asecond about every single
relational problem.
Okay, so, whether it's like inyour marriage, or with your kid,
or with a coworker, or withpeople that you're arguing with
(38:22):
on social media forum.
I am a relationship expert and Ithink part of my expertise
really comes that I've worked inso many variations of
relationship.
I've worked with couples, I'veworked with families, I've
worked in companies wherethey're family run businesses.
I've worked in the US politicalsystem and one of the beautiful
things about the brain is thebrain really is what I call the
(38:43):
great simplifier or the greatclarifier.
So all of these relationshipsituational problems it seems
like there's a lot ofvariability, a lot of complexity
can really be reduced to onequestion.
So people are really coming tome to say how can I get these
people to be different?
(39:03):
How can I get my kid to listento me more?
How can I get these people toclearly stop voting for this
political party and vote forthis political party?
How can I get these people Imean to be more motivated?
Whatever Goes on and on and on.
Just fill in the blank, butthat's not the truth of the
question.
So at least say the fullquestion.
The full question is how can Iget these people around me to be
(39:26):
different so that I don't haveto feel feelings I don't like to
feel inside of my own body?
Because the problem when my kiddoesn't listen to me is that I
now feel disrespected, I nowfeel afraid.
I come up with a whole storyabout how he's going to grow up
and not listen.
You know, it's like thenightmares never cease.
But what I think is reallyhelpful is clarity, is the
(39:49):
foundation of power.
So let me at least understandmy true problem.
My true problem is yourbehaving is making a feeling
inside of my own body that Idon't like.
So look at the, look at theglobal order, the, the, the
fundamental problem Everyonetalks about okay, we want peace,
we want peace.
I've done, I've spoken tothousands and thousands and
thousands of people at thispoint in my career the number,
(40:11):
because sometimes I'll likesurvey the audience or whatever
you say.
What do you want more thananything in this lifetime?
People will say peace.
Sometimes they might use adifferent word, like happiness,
but they're saying I want peace,okay, the global order, our
families, up to entire nations,run on doing my way.
Sometimes it's a polite versionof doing my way, but still
(40:35):
we're going to do it my way.
So until I I myself and this iswhere the power play comes from,
and I believe that this isexponential quantum power let me
metabolize my own resistance.
So let me figure out how tometabolize what other people
don't do in my way.
When other people writecomments on my social media
(40:55):
posts that I'm like oh, thatwasn't, that wasn't a very nice
thing to say.
Or when my husband doesn't dowhat I really think my husband
should do, or my kids arebehaving, let me metabolize that
energy, let me transmute thatenergy in my own body.
And let me not say anything toanyone about how they should
behave in their life before I'veactually figured out how to, in
(41:16):
a somatic way, move that energyin my own body.
Do you understand what I'msaying?
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Oh, oh yeah so it becomes.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
This thing is like how do I?
And the answer is expansion.
The answer is I've got to,because what happens when we?
I want you to think for amoment about the physics of this
.
So when somebody does somethingthat you don't like, they make a
comment.
You don't like they dosomething, don't you don't like
they make a comment.
You don't like they dosomething, don't you don't like?
(41:42):
Notice that there's like aclenching.
Can you feel that there's like?
So the work?
Because people want to talk,talk, talk, talk, talk about the
work.
And we should talk about thework.
But the work is also verysomatic and when it becomes
somatic it becomes wordless andfor those of us who are really
intellectual, like this kind ofwork can frustrate us.
(42:03):
But we live in a bind.
So when somebody does somethingthat frustrates us, a big piece
of the work is people willalways say well, what do I do?
You stay open.
So the reason I call energyrising energy rising is because
the human biology knowsexquisitely what to do with
(42:24):
waste.
We breathe in oxygen, we putout carbon dioxide, we eat food,
we pass the food Our skin cells.
They go away every 30 days orso.
Right, there's somethingsingular.
(42:44):
That happened with our negativeexperiences with emotion.
So the human nervous system isliterally built over many, many,
many, many years to moveemotions, to move sensation.
So what happens is when westart to feel a feeling inside
of our body that frightens us,instead of just letting quite
literally the energy risebecause if you pay attention to
where the energy starts in yourbody, it starts low.
If you think about, like, whensomebody like said something
(43:04):
really rude, you, it doesn't.
You never like, I felt it rightat the top of my head.
You're like, I feel it in mypelvis, I feel it in my gut, I
feel it in my chest.
Okay, so instead of just lettingit rise, what happens is we
clench and then and then thethinking starts why did they say
that to me?
(43:25):
What are they saying?
Did they really take meseriously?
Okay, well, all you're doinghere is keeping toxic emotional
energy in.
So the work is to say let mework with myself.
How do I stay open?
So what does staying open looklike?
(43:45):
Well, you, you can't start withyour spouse, you can't start
with your parents.
That's like being like Ihaven't worked out in about 14
years, but I would love tocompete in an ironman tomorrow.
It's like that won't work, okay, so not helpful what we?
need to do like all right, whenthe guy cuts me off at the stop
sign and I start the meeting,let me just and ask myself this
(44:09):
question what am I saying Icannot handle about this right
now?
Because the reason you protectis for protection and the reason
you protect is because youthink you cannot handle.
So what can you not handle?
And if you really sit with thequestion, like really sit with
it, you will start your thingswill start to come to you.
You won't like them, but itwill start to come.
like he thinks he thinks he'smore important than me.
(44:33):
He who does he think that?
Okay, well, okay, so say, okay,he thinks he's more important
than me.
So what?
Yep, but like you gotta, it'shard to come up with any like.
So what?
Well, I guess I don't reallylike that.
Okay, can you handle not likingthat?
(44:55):
Yes, okay, so it becomes thiswork that's deeply intelligent
but not deeply cerebral in thekind of high achieving,
overthinking sort of way.
Does this make sense?
Speaker 2 (45:09):
Yep, yeah, julia, this completely makes sense.
What I like about this last fewminutes is how you're bringing
it back down to the personLooking at the time.
Is there anything that you wantto leave with our listeners or
something that you haven'tbrought up yet?
Speaker 4 (45:25):
Or something we could ask you.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
Or a question that we can ask you To set you up to
say what you'd want to say saywhat you'd want to say.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
I think that I would maybe.
Hopefully this doesn't open awhole other can of worms, but
one of the things I think isimportant to understand is I
think the core negativeemotional experience lives in
this domain of anxiety.
Stress, fear, like these arejust kind of different words for
the same kind of emotionalenergy, and so what most of us
(46:03):
do is we try to combat thatanxiety or that stress or that
fear by creating certainty.
Okay, but the best definition Ican give you for anxiety as an
anxiety expert is certainty.
Anxiety, anxiety is really adisturbed relationship with
(46:28):
certainty.
So what happens to most of usis we think I just need to know,
I just need to figure it out, Ijust need to make sure this one
thing doesn't happen, I justneed to check and make okay.
The problem with this is themore that we obsessive and this
is such an important piece, butit is so counterintuitive the
(46:48):
more that we obsessively seekcertainty, actually, the more
anxious we become, the actuallythe more anxious we become.
So if you think about maximalexpressions of anxiety, which
are the diagnostic categories so, ocd, panic, ptsd, social
anxiety, generalized anxietywhat is sustaining all of these
(47:09):
disorders is pathologicalcertainty seeking.
I got to make sure this traumanever happens again.
I got to make sure that thestoverly is.
I got to make sure this traumanever happens again.
I got to make sure that thestoverly is off.
I got to make sure that thisdoes not happen.
I got to make sure that I'vechecked okay.
So then what happens in a lessdiagnostic kind of more it's
like I work with a lot of highachievers, a lot of leaders is
they get into these things thatI call the overs.
(47:31):
They start to overwork, theystart to overwork, they start to
overthink, they start tooverschedule, they start to
overextend, they start tooverachieve.
So they're overfunctioning.
They're feeling miserable aboutthis.
They're feeling actually quiteexhausted, quite numb, quite
hopeless, but they feel like ifthey stop overing it, the wheels
(47:52):
are going to fall off the bus.
But the neurologic truth isactually, the more that you are
pursuing certainty in this way,the worse you're going to feel,
and so it becomes this veryradical shift in consciousness.
It is actually quite powerfulin a lot of instances to say the
most powerful thing I can dohere is decide I do not need to
(48:13):
know.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Just let it go.
Speaker 4 (48:19):
And the key word that we're hearing from all of our
clients is uncertainty.
Like the levels of uncertaintyare so high right now and I
wonder things have been changing, but uncertainty has always
been with us.
So how do you speak about like,take it one step further with
the overing and the relationshipwith certainty?
Give me one more bounce.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
Okay.
So like, what do you?
What do you do about it?
Yeah Well, so I'm an absolute,enormous fan of hierarchy.
So I would say one of thethings you think you need to
know that you don't need to know.
Now, some things are going to belike a level 10, meaning like I
probably don't, but I can'tstop myself.
But some things are going to be, like imagine you're lifting
dumbbells like some things aregoing to be five pounds, some
(49:03):
things are going to be 15 pounds, some things are going to be 50
pounds, right, but let's sayyou're checking the New York
Times seven times a day, like,do you really think something
happened in the last three hoursthat you must know at this
precise moment?
Like, can you sit with theenergy of uncertainty in a body
and really watch the somaticresponse?
(49:24):
And it's like it tends to havelike an itchy quality to it,
like you just don't want to sitin your skin.
You, you want to move, you wantto.
What the behavior actually is is, it's a compulsion.
So I have the thought in myhead I need to, I need to know,
I need to know, I need to know.
That's the obsession.
Again, I'm using thismetaphorically, not
(49:45):
diagnostically I need to know, Ineed to know.
And then that thinking drivesbehavior, and so I do the thing.
I check my phone, I ask aquestion.
So there's no way to get topeace by information.
Speaker 2 (50:21):
And the information age is showing this to us in
spades.
So there has to be thiswillingness to say I don't need
to know.
Wow, thank you.
Thank you, I think, providesuch an easy handle for people
to catch what you're tossingover at them, and that level of
simplicity of something that'sprofoundly complex.
(50:42):
I highly value that.
Being in the people businessfor as long as we are, or as
long as we have been, that's themagic of the work that you're
doing is delivering theseuniversal complexities in such
simple form that people can atleast you know, pop that pill
(51:03):
and let it just settle in that.
I'm just that the way you didthat today brilliant.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
Five stars yeah, really good.
It's a gift that's helpful tohear.
Speaker 4 (51:16):
Yeah, yeah, I love it .
Speaker 3 (51:17):
Narrative intelligence so good yeah, dr
julia, I just wanted to saythank you so much, not only for
recording this, but one of uh,my biggest takeaways from your
book and your work was just theidea that energy is contagious
and without sounding creepy, Ithink about you and that idea
almost every day, that's notcreepy at all.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
That's very meaningful, okay, good.
Speaker 3 (51:39):
Well, because, and kind of what you're saying about
the person in the car.
So you know, as you can imagine, the morning is very stressful
with kids trying to get out ofthe house, and so I think about
I cannot imagine with four, bythe way, like I'm going to lose
my mind with two.
You don't even want to thinkabout it, but just like okay,
what energy am I giving off?
That is, the kids are absorbingand I'm better at it.
(52:01):
But then I'll have thesemoments of like okay, I need to
stop and think about this,Because if I'm stressed and
da-da-da and what about this?
Can I handle Interactions withBrian and Linda, interactions
with volunteer committees at theschool, or even like the
barista at Starbucks?
That idea was so profound to methat the energy that we give us
is contagious.
So do I want to be Grumpy Gusthat's just going through life
(52:24):
with my head down, or-.
Because that's so you hey, Iknow that's not me but anyway,
but it was really profound and Ithink that that simple idea is
something that has stuck with memore than any of the dozens and
dozens of guests that we'veinterviewed over the last year
and a half.
So thank you.
As Brian said, those littleeasily digestible nuggets, I
(52:44):
want to put it on a T-shirtsomehow.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
I will buy one from you.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
You'll buy one of your T-shirts.
Speaker 3 (52:50):
Perfect, we can copyright that Actually can I
share a quick story?
Please yes.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
Because I want to make it like I like people to
know that I walk this work and Ithink it's.
You know, we're all in thistogether.
So, I have two fairly youngkids, and one of my children
struggles.
This is like God's joke on me,Like I'm a psychologist.
I was like this is going to begreat.
We're going to like do all thisemotional intelligence work.
(53:19):
It's going to come fairlynaturally to me.
And then God was like take thisone, you know so, one of my, my
kids.
Really he's wonderful, but hestruggles a lot with emotion
regulation.
He's still very young, so hewanted to go to the batting
cages and it was a 90 degree dayin Chicago.
It's like the batting cages arejust like indirect.
It's like already like, I'm likegross I was like OK, I'm going
(53:41):
to be sure we'll go.
So I was like you have fivedollars, let's say so once you
use all the tokens.
Like so I'm like prepping, I'mlike doing the on ramp stuff.
Speaker 4 (53:58):
Well, he gets in this batting cage and the batting
cage said slow, they werethrowing like major league
fastball heat.
Speaker 1 (54:02):
So I'm watching right away.
I'm like, okay, this is notgonna go well.
So he's there and then, I don'tknow, like by some karmic fate,
there's now a line of peoplewho want to be in this like hot,
terrible batting cage.
So I'm like, okay, now there'sother people there of people who
want to be in this, like hot,terrible batting cage.
So I'm like, okay, now there'sother people there.
So he runs to the end of it.
He like runs out of all of hislike his balls and his choke and
he's like, ma, I need moremoney and I was like we're done
(54:24):
with the money.
And he just starts to lose inthe batting cage.
So I'm like, can you come outof the batting cage?
So he comes out and he's sweaty, he's hot, he's emotionally
dysregulated and he like is sofrustrated because he did not
spend all this money and did nothit one ball.
And he just starts to totallygo sideways and he starts saying
(54:44):
he's yelling, he's sayingreally like I think undesirable
things about himself.
So I can feel my own energy ofembarrassment.
Start to like rise and thatclenching starts to come.
I'm like just get, get, get thecar.
You know, but by the grace ofGod I have this thing.
It's just like just let it.
(55:04):
So I stayed home.
I go hey, whenever you're ready, I'm going to wait over there
in the car.
And so I wait in the car for awhile, don't know 10-15 minutes.
He comes in the car and it'sclear, like, do not speak to me.
So I, so I don't have any.
So I'm working on myself.
I don't need to engage with him.
Like just let him.
(55:24):
Like any engagement now is justmy need, frankly, for control.
So I just let him.
And it's a hot day, so I goin'Donuts.
I go to the drive-thru and Iknow that I can't speak to him,
but I'm thinking about my ownenergy, like how can I connect
to him in a way that really setsthe tone that shows him that
he's safe?
So I go to the drive-thru andat the drive-thru window I go to
(55:50):
the guy who hands me my drink.
I'm like do you want to hear ajoke?
And the guy's like sure.
And I was like what is a pig'sfavorite karate move?
And I was like I don't know.
And I was like a pork chop, sohe starts laughing, my feet
starts laughing, and at thatmoment the energy of the whole
thing had finally shifted.
Now, if I, 30 minutes ago,would have really kind of caved
(56:16):
to my own humiliation, my ownsense of righteousness, I didn't
even want to be at this lousybed and cave.
To begin with, you're not great, like all the things.
Speaker 4 (56:25):
I think a lot of our parents said to us or you start
to perpetuate thisintergenerational trauma.
Speaker 1 (56:31):
So when I was able, first and foremost, to just take
control of my own emotionalenergy and just be like, let me
go regulate myself in the carfor 10 minutes, it changed the
fate, not just of thatinteraction, but I think, the
fate at the risk of soundingdramatic of my child's life, you
know.
Because if we, if we don't comein and work with ourselves
(56:52):
first and then we try to engagewith these people who depend on
us, our children, our spouses,our teens, it's all sideways
that duncan employee.
Speaker 3 (57:02):
You changed his day at least too, I mean you think
you like that joke like.
I think he loved that joke.
I think he told it 15 moretimes that day but that's such a
great example of the energylike being contagious and it
doesn't.
You know, you've clearly donework on yourself like that If
we're not open to that, like youcan't be in the presence of
(57:24):
mind to tell a hilarious dadjoke no offense, but that was a
great one and I just love thatabout your book and there's all
the steps and the codes andeverything else that I think is
wonderful all the steps and thecodes and everything else that I
think is wonderful.
But that's such a simple ideathat I think it's great to leave
our listeners with is justthink about what's your energy
doing right now.
How do you change that?
Because what did you write?
The world needs an upgrade toits relational operating system
(57:45):
and I think it can start withthose little moments.
So thank you.
Speaker 4 (57:48):
Thank you.
Thank you.
This has been awesome.
Sincerely Thank you.
Speaker 1 (57:57):
Well, thank you again for having me.
Speaker 2 (57:57):
It's been a pleasure to speak with you and I hope
that we can stay connected.
Speaker 3 (58:00):
Thank, you Absolutely .
This has been awesome.
Another huge thank you to DrJulia Daganji for taking the
time to chat with us.
It was a lot of fun and I willabsolutely let you know if we
end up making those t-shirts.
And I wasn't kidding when Isaid I think about that idea of
energy being contagious.
I think about it every day.
(58:20):
In fact, just this morning, asI was trying to get my kids out
the door, I was thinking aboutthis.
As I was sending an email tosomeone, I was thinking about
this, and so perhaps thet-shirts are going to be a big
seller, who knows?
But I want to leave you with onethought from our podcast.
So this week, or maybe evenjust today, pay attention to
(58:41):
your emotional energy,especially when you're under
stress or there's a lot going on.
And before reacting to thatsituation, I want you to just
pause and ask yourself I'mquoting Dr Julia now, what am I
saying?
I cannot handle right now.
Okay, then see if you can stayopen, take a deep breath and
(59:01):
just let the energy rise ratherthan clenching I really related
to that or to that clenching orcontrolling others or the
situation.
Model this self-awareness withyourself, with your team, with
your family, and notice if thereare any shifts in the energy on
your life.
(59:22):
To learn more about Dr Julia,you can click the link in the
show notes or go todrjuliadeganjicom Again link in
the show notes to that.
You can also visit our website,leadershipvisionconsultingcom,
to get more resources related tothis episode or any of our
other episodes that provide youwith information about how to
build a strong and powerful teamculture.
(59:45):
We've been doing this work forover 25 years and have learned a
lot along the way as we havehelped teams and done some
really wonderful things.
Thank you for listening to theLeadership Vision Podcast.
Please share this with someoneyou think might benefit from our
work.
Go, follow us on all the socialchannels, sign up for our email
newsletter and again click thelink in the show notes, or visit
(01:00:07):
us on the web atleadershipvisionconsultingcom.
My name is Nathan Friberg and,on behalf of our entire team,
thanks for listening.
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