August 18, 2025 • 27 mins
In this episode, host Nathan Freeburg is joined by Brian and Dr. Linda Schubring to unpack the impact of uncertainty on leaders, teams, and organizations. Drawing from client examples and real-world challenges, they explore the hidden consequences of uncertainty—like fractured trust and chronic stress—and share practical ways to build resilience, foster clarity, and create meaningful connections, even when everything feels unclear.
Key Topics Covered:
- The “theme of the year” for organizations: uncertainty
- How external disruption leads to internal breakdown
- Hidden consequences on teams: burnout, fractured trust, decision fatigue
- How strong leaders are choosing calm, clarity, and connection
- The importance of wellness, boundaries, and emotional regulation
- Building flexible systems for resilient teams
Resources Mentioned:
- Leadership Vision Consulting: https://www.leadershipvisionconsulting.com
- Unfolded: Lessons in Transformation from an Origami Crane
🎉 Unfolded is a National Bestseller!
#1 in Business & #5 Overall on USA Today
#17 on Publisher’s Weekly Nonfiction
📘 Grab your copy + get the FREE Reflection Guide!
-
Read the full blog post here!
CONTACT US
- email: connect@leadershipvisionconsulting.com
- Leadership Vision Online
ABOUT
The Leadership Vision Podcast is a weekly show sharing our expertise in discovering, practicing, and implementing a Strengths-based approach to people, teams, and culture. Contact us to talk to us about helping your team understand the power of Strengths.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
You are not in charge of creating certainty for other
people.
You are invited to create thekind of connections that can
weather whatever certainty isahead of you, around you or
within you.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
You are listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast,
our show helping you buildpositive team culture.
Our consulting firm has beendoing this work for the past 25
years so that leaders arementally engaged and emotionally
healthy.
To learn more about our work,you can click the link in the
show notes or visit us on theweb at
leadershipvisionconsultingcom.
Hello everyone, my name isNathan Friberg, and today on the
(00:42):
show we are joined by ourfounder, brian Schubring, and
our CEO, dr Linda Schubring, fora conversation about something
that's affecting every singleorganization.
We work with uncertainty, frompolitical tension to economic
instability, global conflicts,ai and automation and just all
the normal stuff that goes on ina business.
(01:03):
With all these external forcesshifting around us, it's no
surprise that leaders and teamsare feeling internal pressure.
But how should we respond?
In this episode, we're going toexplore how uncertainty affects
everything from decision makingto team dynamics and what
leaders can do about it.
We'll share real examples fromour clients, reflect on what
we're seeing in the marketplaceand offer practical ideas for
(01:26):
fostering clarity, connectionand courage when things feel
unclear.
Now, as you listen today, Iwould like you to ask yourself
this question how doesuncertainty show up in your life
or in your work and how are youleading others through it?
All right, let's get into it.
Dr Linda and Brian Shubring,welcome to the Leadership Vision
(01:49):
Podcast.
I have no idea what we'retalking about.
Everything is up in the air.
Everything is in flux.
Sounds like you're uncertain.
I'm so uncertain.
Just kidding, we have a verygood outline here but before we
get to that, can you just sortof set this conversation up?
Why are we talking about this?
Why are we referring to thisword uncertainty, as a theme for
the year?
Paint the picture for us.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
I'll make an attempt at that.
We are recording this podcastin July of 2025.
And for the last eight months,we have been so busy with
clients that we have foundourselves really engaging with
people and teams andorganizations in a much deeper
way than we have before.
And, like we often do, we askourselves what are some of the
(02:33):
themes that we're hearing?
Because when you're doing thework, you're kind of in the
middle of all that You're notreally hearing clearly.
So we talk about it and what weclearly have been hearing that,
if we were to choose a theme of2025 so far with all of our
clients, like you said, it isuncertainty, and the thing that
I want to add to it is whatwe're seeing with our clients is
high degrees of uncertainty andits hidden consequences, and
(02:57):
there is so much uncertaintythat organizations are dealing
with much like what youmentioned earlier in your
introduction, nathan, but thehidden consequences that are
occurring are really concerningus, getting our attention and
also giving us opportunities tohelp, because one of the things
that we're noticing is, as webegin or as we continue to work
(03:19):
with clients, month after month,we're seeing the consequences
of uncertainty becoming more andmore awakened or heightened or
they're being dealt with head on, and so I really want to be
able to take this time toaddress uncertainty, its hidden
consequences and howorganizations are dealing with
uncertainties that are unique totheir context and culture.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Because what I would add to that as well.
That was a great intro, brian.
And culture, because what Iwould add to that as well that
was a great intro, brian.
We have found that when ourclients are saying things like
we're experiencing a lot ofuncertainty, what we're hearing
is some of the foundationalelements of business, or how
people act or interact, havebeen completely disrupted and
(04:02):
they're no longer reliable.
And when the foundationalelements get rocked, it's a
different game than when you'retrying to disrupt on purpose.
And so some of the things thatwe are learning is the tolerance
that people have foruncertainty, as well as some of
(04:25):
the maladaptive behaviors thathappen in uncertainty, and some
of the ways that we have metleaders that have risen above,
that are taking responsibilityfor the things that they can
control and creating pockets ofcertainty within the greater
story of uncertainty and by wayof introduction.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Another one of the things that I want to emphasize
is I want to just remind us thatas a culture we've emerged from
a great historic uncertaintywith COVID and what that did,
not only to the workplace but torelationships, and how
healthcare and wellbeing hasbecome at the forefront of some
of the conversations.
(05:07):
Many organizations haven'treturned to a sense of certainty
after COVID.
We have another generation ofthe workforce that's entering
into our current professionallives who have never been in a
situation where there's been thecertainty of showing up at a
workplace.
So there's uncertainty in howto introduce and welcome a new
(05:28):
workforce and there's alsouncertainty in how to take care
of our emotional and physicaland relational well-being,
because that whole well-beingconversation has emerged fast in
the last three years.
There's uncertainty on many,many levels.
That's happening and what we'reseeing is, as we're trying to
(05:49):
address the uncertainties thatwe're naming and the
uncertainties that you, aslisteners, may be experiencing,
we have not yet figured out howto answer those questions of
certainty from within us.
We're looking for answersoutside of us and that's one of
the concerns that we have is howdo we look within to address
(06:11):
the uncertainty without?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Let's start by talking about what uncertainty
does to people in teams, and I'mwondering if I can have you
answer like what are some of thehidden consequences of
uncertainty and if you havespecific examples.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Okay, we have several examples.
Um, there are several clientsthat that we've identified in
our preparation for this podcastthat are dealing with
uncertainty, and some of theuncertainty that people are
dealing with is political andeconomic uncertainty and its
direct impact on revenue, onfunding, on opportunities within
(06:51):
business.
The consequence of that is howdoes an organization think of
strategies and ways to dobusiness that are not only new
but are sustainable within thispresent context?
Because that question is how dowe create certainty in how we
work and how we relate that'sgoing to be sustainable, without
(07:12):
any history or practice ofwhether it's going to work or
not?
That's a great degree ofuncertainty.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
I wonder if the goal is even to be certain.
I think the goal instead is togrow a capacity to be able to
lead in spite of uncertainty orinto uncertainty, and keep
people connected and help peoplecontinue to move forward.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Because we have another client that's working
through uncertainties withintheir specific domain of
expertise.
Through uncertainties withintheir specific domain of
expertise, that threat iscreating fractures within the
relational structure of theteams that we're working with,
and so it's an uncertaintywhether we can trust each other
to fulfill whatever's beingasked of us, and that's more of
(07:59):
a relational threat.
The consequences of that is alack of trust with team members,
a lack of reliability on howpeople work because they're
afraid to try anything new, andone of the other consequences of
that is leaders not knowing howto lead with teams that are so
fractured.
Hmm, oh, that's good.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Linda, when I'm stuck on, as you said, is the goal
certainty?
And I don't think it is Likewhen we first started talking
about this I was like, well,hasn't everything always been
uncertain?
Hasn't the world always beenunpredictable?
In whatever the new technologyis, and there's always been, I
mean you could argue that thisis the most certain time in
(08:42):
world history, in one degree,just from a political standpoint
Certainly uncertain yeah.
So yeah, the goal is notcertainty.
The goal is being slightly morecomfortable with uncertainty.
Is that perhaps what we'resaying in this?
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Or being able to rise above, or—.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
To adapt and adjust.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Adapt and adjust Huh.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Or to live within.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Yeah, to live within uncertainty.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Right, because one of the things that I believe that
we're noticing is each personhas their own way that they
navigate uncertainty.
They have specific desires andneeds that they have.
I think that a lot of peopleare learning how to live with
(09:30):
their threat and fear thatthings may never be how they
knew them before.
How do you live with that?
By finding something else,someone else or something inside
of you to anchor to or toground yourself in.
Where you're finding that, hey,I'm okay, I don't feel
personally threatened, I feelsafe.
(09:51):
And knowing that there'ssomething certain about who you
are as an individual will giveyou greater capacity to navigate
the uncertainty around youBecause, like we're talking
about, uncertainty is here tostay.
Well, uncertainty is here tostay, and it's people's natural
tendency to kind of attack theproblem and get rid of it
instead of asking themselveswell, how am I going to be
(10:15):
present and grounded?
in myself to face not solve, butto face the uncertainty that's
around me.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Because some of the elements at play are completely
different.
So sometimes when there's beencommunication breakdowns on
teams because when that happensit's obvious and it happens on
every team whenever you gethumans together yeah, and we
find that when people arehearing contradictory messages
(10:42):
from the inside, it's easy tosay, oh great, this is a
communication issue.
These are ways that we canaddress that.
These are some patterns that wecan put in place.
These are some practices thatwe can add, norms that we can
have around communication toimprove.
That is, the confusion and thechanging of minds and changing
(11:07):
of behaviors and changing ofrules and regulations are coming
from without like, from theoutside.
They're coming from the outsideand they're pressuring the group
on the inside, and I thinkthere are times where we're
talking to teams and they'restarting to point fingers at
each other and we almost hit thehit the pause button and say,
okay, pause, look around you.
Is this really about you all?
Or is this about the powersthat be that are, that are
(11:30):
changing and how things arecontinuously revolving, every
day when the clock turns right,because one thing that is going
to be consistent is there'salways going to be uncertainty
in the external world around us.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
We can rely on that.
That's always going to be thecase.
What Linda's emphasizing is howcan leaders and teams ask
themselves how are we going tonavigate the uncertainty around
us so that we can continue togrow and to develop and to meet
whatever goals and objectivesthat we find ourselves about?
And that really then tricklesdown into individuals asking
(12:07):
themselves what do I needpersonally to navigate
uncertainty, what may I needfrom the team members around me
and how can the organizationhelp me navigate and how can I
contribute to bringing some kindof traction to navigate through
uncertainty?
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Because, once again, the game has changed, the
context has changed, the rulesof engagement have changed.
So, whatever norms have beencreated on teams, there's almost
this disruption, this reshakingof all the pieces and all the
players, and that's where thisgreater sense of being adaptable
(12:42):
and being able to meet thepresent moment, the leaders that
can do that, will be thebreakthrough leaders.
Can we talk about some of thoseleaders?
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, I would love to hear about some examples of
leaders or organizations thatare doing this well.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Some of the leaders that I have talked to and I'm
thinking about, in particular, aleader that I'm coaching and as
I was asking questions abouthow they interact with
conflicting messages from theoutside, and this person, this
leader, just said I keep themission in mind and I choose the
highest and best that day.
(13:26):
And there was such a resolveabout this leader that it almost
gave me confidence and courageas well.
And so it wasn't oh, pin oneagainst the other and figure out
which one's right and whichone's wrong and then stir up
dissension among the team.
It was I have a job to do, Ihave people to protect and I
have a mission of why ourorganization was brought
(13:47):
together in the first place andwe're going to achieve it, and
that kind of clear confidencejust gave me encouragement in
that moment.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Another opportunity that leaders have when facing
uncertainty with their teammembers is asking individuals
what they need.
What is it that you need thatwill give you the confidence to
step toward the challenges thatare facing us, because we know
that each person's going to havesomething different, that they
need to feel confident or someway that they want to be
(14:16):
understood so that their levelof threat within uncertainty is
being decreased.
When we want people to beengaged in these challenging
times, we want them to beengaged in ways that are
generative and creative andcollaborative, and to do that, I
think leaders are tasked tocreate an environment where
(14:38):
people feel that they're heardand understood, that they're not
afraid to say, hey, I'm afraidtoo, but how can I help.
And for leaders to create thatspace is to create an
opportunity for the team membersto feel that there's a leader
that believes in them, despitewhatever's happening in the
external world.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
What does that look like for a leader to lead
without having all the answers,without knowing what's going to
happen, without being freakedout themselves, but being able
to not be like, oh no, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine but also
not be like ah, we're all goingto die.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Well, I think that there's a part of it is that
what we have seen with manyleaders is now in their own
unique way.
I tend to exaggerate and usehyperbole, but when way?
I tend to exaggerate and usehyperbole, but when leaders I
see both of you guys.
What we're seeing is that wethink that when leaders do this
(15:33):
well, they are letting theirfears, their threats, their
freak out moments be seen andheard by their teams and in that
way, they're not onlyexpressing I don't have all the
answers, they're not onlydemonstrating that they are
vulnerable, but it's givingpermission for other people to
feel that the same way.
I don't think there's anythingwrong with a leader freaking out
(15:57):
for a moment to let people knowthat they care, they're dialed
in and that they don't have theanswers themselves.
I think the leaders are.
You know, what I hope that theydon't do is say I have the
answers because we don't.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Well, I think, I think there's an appropriate
place for some of those Like.
I think the freak out needs tohappen with other like-minded
leaders and not necessarily, youknow, stirring up.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
All the freak outs.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Yeah, all the freak outs, and I don't think it's a
secret.
I think it is a leader that hasenough self-awareness, that
knows and has practicedemotional regulation, that has
practiced some good self-care,and I think self-care that looks
like good boundaries and beingable to ground to your values.
(16:45):
I think it's the leaders thatcan show some vulnerability like
this is not easy and to knowOkay, so what were you going to
say?
Anything Cause.
Then I have something else.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
No, no, I'm sorry to interrupt.
I just got like I keep thinkingabout all of Bernie Brown's
vulnerability stuff and that youknow we don't need to get into
that, but it's like, yeah,that's, that's a part of it to
be vulnerable, to not say I haveall the answers, Everything's
fine, but like I like that whatI?
Speaker 1 (17:26):
was thinking about is a lot of the leaders that we
work with or that reach out tous and continue to reach out to
us are what I'd like to callbenevolent disruptors.
And those benevolent disruptorsare always trying to change and
push the envelope and try newthings and encourage their
people to grow so that thebusiness grows, so that the
schools grow, whatever else.
And what we have found now, inthis period of world uncertainty
(17:47):
, is that some of thesebenevolent disruptors have
actually eased up.
No more new initiatives thisyear.
We're just going to clean upwhat we have.
We're just going to be boringfor a few months, and even that
kind of awareness of listen, I'mgoing to start to say no a
(18:10):
little bit more.
I know you're used to me sayingyes to all these different
things.
There's a leader I'm thinkingabout and she just said we are
just going to handle what we'vehandled.
No, no new initiatives untilthe next quarter.
And when we, when we hearthings like that and hear
stories like that and then watchthe people react and respond,
(18:32):
there is a different kind oflike.
Okay, then I don't have tobrace for the change, I don't
know at work and at home andwith my family and and yeah go
ahead, and what I mean it soundslike we're talking about is
going from reaction toresilience.
(18:52):
And so is there?
Speaker 2 (18:54):
yeah, because I mean, you know one models.
You could just be reacting likefreaking out, having like a big
oh no, but how do you, how doyou weather that?
Are there ways to help peopleshift around?
I'm thinking like you know theconversation we just had around
play.
Going back to your book, youknow, clarifying values or even
(19:19):
building systems that kind ofhave some of this uncertainty.
You know, think about abuilding.
They're designed to move withthe wind.
Like, is there some?
Like you don't make thebuilding so stiff that it's
never going to move becauseyou're not going to defeat the
wind, so you move it.
You make it like is there?
I don't know, is there any sortof equivalent?
I'm not an architect, yeah Isthere any sort of equivalent of
(19:42):
that with teams that you canhelp, that we can share, Like
again examples, that kind ofhelp teams sort of build that
into their natural process?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, let me set the foundation and then hand it off
to.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Brian, you are an architect?
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yes, I am Because I was trying to move with the
metaphor, thank you.
Yes, I am Because I was tryingto move with the metaphor, thank
you.
When you say like go fromreaction to resilience, the
first thing I think about is tobe able to have space, and it's
not like to bemoan it, but evena beat to say this is a reaction
, because I'm human, because I'mafraid, because I'm threatened,
(20:19):
because there's stress.
If we just move from anxiety toadaptability right away, we've
missed the moment to really sayis this my fear?
Is this all of our fear?
Beating fast, my hands arestarting to sweat.
(20:43):
I'm feeling the tension, beingable to understand quickly what
might be happening and be ableto name it once again, not to
dwell there, but to normalizethat.
That is a human reaction.
Then gives way to all right now.
What are we going to do Now?
What kind of plan can we makegoing forward?
Speaker 2 (21:00):
And that's what I want to end on, because there is
hope, there is a way forward.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
And so what gives you hope when you think about this
problem, this theme of the yearand uncertainty?
How would you leave ourlisteners with hope, with a
promise, with whatever tips,tricks?
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Well, the first thing yeah, the first thing I would
invite people and leaders to dois to consider that uncertainty
affects the whole person.
The uncertainty isn't justaffecting the person that shows
up at work.
It's affecting theirrelationship with their families
, the people that they live with, the communities that they're
involved in.
It's kind of anall-encompassing reality,
(21:43):
because there's uncertaintiesthat people are trying to
navigate that we may never knowof.
There are other elements atplay that are still unknown and
are a mystery.
So consider the whole person'sexperience with uncertainty.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
The second one is burnout.
Like paying attention tosymptoms of burnout.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
It's like.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Sometimes we'll see burnout first physically, where
we see leaders like wow, theylook tired, they look like
they've not slept.
There might be a lot going onand oftentimes we just can't
hide the physical impact of thestress that we might be under.
And so, being aware of pointsof burnout, I think it's more
(22:23):
normalized.
It's not just hidden away rightnow where it's like no, I'm
tired, I just need a beat, Likegive me a second.
And ways that we are trying towork with leaders, give them
some permission to just not runhot and extreme all the time,
but to find places like like aleader we met with a couple of
weeks ago and she just said Ifinally just had a attitude
(22:47):
adjustment and I wasn't going torespond so intensely anymore
that this was, I wasn't going tofight it, I was just going to
learn how to adapt within thenew confines it.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
I was just going to learn how to adapt within the
new confines, Because beingexposed to prolonged uncertainty
leads people to chronic stressand anxiety, where they're
living in constant states offight or flight, which isn't
healthy for people on really anylevel.
And that's why another way toemphasize how there is hope is
(23:19):
to consider and emphasizewellness with people, like
giving people permission to takea break and whatever wellness
looks like to the person.
How can we amplify that andgive people the opportunity to
pursue well and to be healthy isa release valve for some of the
symptoms of chronic stress andanxiety or connection.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
There was some company I was just reading about
on LinkedIn where they giveeach employee a hundred bucks
every month and they they haveto use that money.
Yes, they have to use thatmoney to do something with a
colleague, and right.
So it's obviously expense thatway or whatever.
(24:07):
But it's not just oh so thatyou can help your own bottom
line, but it's a specificinvestment into a group of
people or a small group ofpeople.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
One of the things my wife's company did a couple
years ago coming out of thepandemic, was they have a
wellness week where the entirecompany shuts down.
And what's so great is it's notjust like a vacation week where
people are still like, hey, Iknow you're on vacation, but can
you quickly look over the slidedeck or whatever.
And it's so good for morale thatpeople come back so much more
(24:41):
energized and so ready to go totown Cause they're like nobody
could email me, Nobody like wasbugging, Like it was just it was
so great.
So, whatever opportunities wehave for that, any final
thoughts here?
I know that we've kind of justasked.
I just kind of asked you forsome like quick takeaways, but
is there any like kind of justasked?
I just kind of asked you forsome like quick takeaways, but
is there any like kind of lastword that either of you would
(25:03):
like to leave on this, Becausethis isn't a topic we're
obviously going to, you know,tie up and put a bow on.
It's just sort of this ongoingthing.
But what would be, I don't know, maybe a final thought you'd
have to leave people with.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
You are not in charge of creating certainty for other
people.
You are not in charge ofcreating certainty for other
people.
You are invited to create thekind of connections that can
weather whatever certainty isahead of you, around you or
(25:38):
within you.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Thank you for listening to the Leadership
Vision Podcast, our show helpingyou build a positive team
culture.
If you found value from thisepisode about uncertainty and
would like more resources tohelp build your team, you can
click the link in the show notesor visit us on the web at
leadershipvisionconsultingcom.
We would also appreciate it ifyou could share it with someone
that you think would benefitfrom this.
(26:00):
Also, follow us on the socials,sign up for our free email
newsletter and if you haven'tyet picked up your copy of
Unfolded Lessons inTransformation from an Origami
Crane, I encourage you to dothat.
Also, link the show notes orwherever good books are sold.
I'm Nathan Friberg, I'm LindaSchubring and I'm Brian
Schubring, and on behalf of ourentire team, thanks for
listening.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Thanks for listening.
You are not in charge of creating certainty for other
people.
You are invited to create thekind of connections that can
weather whatever certainty isahead of you, around you or
within you.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
You are listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast,
our show helping you buildpositive team culture.
Our consulting firm has beendoing this work for the past 25
years so that leaders arementally engaged and emotionally
healthy.
To learn more about our work,you can click the link in the
show notes or visit us on theweb at
leadershipvisionconsultingcom.
Hello everyone, my name isNathan Friberg, and today on the
(00:42):
show we are joined by ourfounder, brian Schubring, and
our CEO, dr Linda Schubring, fora conversation about something
that's affecting every singleorganization.
We work with uncertainty, frompolitical tension to economic
instability, global conflicts,ai and automation and just all
the normal stuff that goes on ina business.
(01:03):
With all these external forcesshifting around us, it's no
surprise that leaders and teamsare feeling internal pressure.
But how should we respond?
In this episode, we're going toexplore how uncertainty affects
everything from decision makingto team dynamics and what
leaders can do about it.
We'll share real examples fromour clients, reflect on what
we're seeing in the marketplaceand offer practical ideas for
(01:26):
fostering clarity, connectionand courage when things feel
unclear.
Now, as you listen today, Iwould like you to ask yourself
this question how doesuncertainty show up in your life
or in your work and how are youleading others through it?
All right, let's get into it.
Dr Linda and Brian Shubring,welcome to the Leadership Vision
(01:49):
Podcast.
I have no idea what we'retalking about.
Everything is up in the air.
Everything is in flux.
Sounds like you're uncertain.
I'm so uncertain.
Just kidding, we have a verygood outline here but before we
get to that, can you just sortof set this conversation up?
Why are we talking about this?
Why are we referring to thisword uncertainty, as a theme for
the year?
Paint the picture for us.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
I'll make an attempt at that.
We are recording this podcastin July of 2025.
And for the last eight months,we have been so busy with
clients that we have foundourselves really engaging with
people and teams andorganizations in a much deeper
way than we have before.
And, like we often do, we askourselves what are some of the
(02:33):
themes that we're hearing?
Because when you're doing thework, you're kind of in the
middle of all that You're notreally hearing clearly.
So we talk about it and what weclearly have been hearing that,
if we were to choose a theme of2025 so far with all of our
clients, like you said, it isuncertainty, and the thing that
I want to add to it is whatwe're seeing with our clients is
high degrees of uncertainty andits hidden consequences, and
(02:57):
there is so much uncertaintythat organizations are dealing
with much like what youmentioned earlier in your
introduction, nathan, but thehidden consequences that are
occurring are really concerningus, getting our attention and
also giving us opportunities tohelp, because one of the things
that we're noticing is, as webegin or as we continue to work
(03:19):
with clients, month after month,we're seeing the consequences
of uncertainty becoming more andmore awakened or heightened or
they're being dealt with head on, and so I really want to be
able to take this time toaddress uncertainty, its hidden
consequences and howorganizations are dealing with
uncertainties that are unique totheir context and culture.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Because what I would add to that as well.
That was a great intro, brian.
And culture, because what Iwould add to that as well that
was a great intro, brian.
We have found that when ourclients are saying things like
we're experiencing a lot ofuncertainty, what we're hearing
is some of the foundationalelements of business, or how
people act or interact, havebeen completely disrupted and
(04:02):
they're no longer reliable.
And when the foundationalelements get rocked, it's a
different game than when you'retrying to disrupt on purpose.
And so some of the things thatwe are learning is the tolerance
that people have foruncertainty, as well as some of
(04:25):
the maladaptive behaviors thathappen in uncertainty, and some
of the ways that we have metleaders that have risen above,
that are taking responsibilityfor the things that they can
control and creating pockets ofcertainty within the greater
story of uncertainty and by wayof introduction.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Another one of the things that I want to emphasize
is I want to just remind us thatas a culture we've emerged from
a great historic uncertaintywith COVID and what that did,
not only to the workplace but torelationships, and how
healthcare and wellbeing hasbecome at the forefront of some
of the conversations.
(05:07):
Many organizations haven'treturned to a sense of certainty
after COVID.
We have another generation ofthe workforce that's entering
into our current professionallives who have never been in a
situation where there's been thecertainty of showing up at a
workplace.
So there's uncertainty in howto introduce and welcome a new
(05:28):
workforce and there's alsouncertainty in how to take care
of our emotional and physicaland relational well-being,
because that whole well-beingconversation has emerged fast in
the last three years.
There's uncertainty on many,many levels.
That's happening and what we'reseeing is, as we're trying to
(05:49):
address the uncertainties thatwe're naming and the
uncertainties that you, aslisteners, may be experiencing,
we have not yet figured out howto answer those questions of
certainty from within us.
We're looking for answersoutside of us and that's one of
the concerns that we have is howdo we look within to address
(06:11):
the uncertainty without?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Let's start by talking about what uncertainty
does to people in teams, and I'mwondering if I can have you
answer like what are some of thehidden consequences of
uncertainty and if you havespecific examples.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Okay, we have several examples.
Um, there are several clientsthat that we've identified in
our preparation for this podcastthat are dealing with
uncertainty, and some of theuncertainty that people are
dealing with is political andeconomic uncertainty and its
direct impact on revenue, onfunding, on opportunities within
(06:51):
business.
The consequence of that is howdoes an organization think of
strategies and ways to dobusiness that are not only new
but are sustainable within thispresent context?
Because that question is how dowe create certainty in how we
work and how we relate that'sgoing to be sustainable, without
(07:12):
any history or practice ofwhether it's going to work or
not?
That's a great degree ofuncertainty.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
I wonder if the goal is even to be certain.
I think the goal instead is togrow a capacity to be able to
lead in spite of uncertainty orinto uncertainty, and keep
people connected and help peoplecontinue to move forward.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Because we have another client that's working
through uncertainties withintheir specific domain of
expertise.
Through uncertainties withintheir specific domain of
expertise, that threat iscreating fractures within the
relational structure of theteams that we're working with,
and so it's an uncertaintywhether we can trust each other
to fulfill whatever's beingasked of us, and that's more of
(07:59):
a relational threat.
The consequences of that is alack of trust with team members,
a lack of reliability on howpeople work because they're
afraid to try anything new, andone of the other consequences of
that is leaders not knowing howto lead with teams that are so
fractured.
Hmm, oh, that's good.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Linda, when I'm stuck on, as you said, is the goal
certainty?
And I don't think it is Likewhen we first started talking
about this I was like, well,hasn't everything always been
uncertain?
Hasn't the world always beenunpredictable?
In whatever the new technologyis, and there's always been, I
mean you could argue that thisis the most certain time in
(08:42):
world history, in one degree,just from a political standpoint
Certainly uncertain yeah.
So yeah, the goal is notcertainty.
The goal is being slightly morecomfortable with uncertainty.
Is that perhaps what we'resaying in this?
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Or being able to rise above, or—.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
To adapt and adjust.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Adapt and adjust Huh.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Or to live within.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Yeah, to live within uncertainty.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Right, because one of the things that I believe that
we're noticing is each personhas their own way that they
navigate uncertainty.
They have specific desires andneeds that they have.
I think that a lot of peopleare learning how to live with
(09:30):
their threat and fear thatthings may never be how they
knew them before.
How do you live with that?
By finding something else,someone else or something inside
of you to anchor to or toground yourself in.
Where you're finding that, hey,I'm okay, I don't feel
personally threatened, I feelsafe.
(09:51):
And knowing that there'ssomething certain about who you
are as an individual will giveyou greater capacity to navigate
the uncertainty around youBecause, like we're talking
about, uncertainty is here tostay.
Well, uncertainty is here tostay, and it's people's natural
tendency to kind of attack theproblem and get rid of it
instead of asking themselveswell, how am I going to be
(10:15):
present and grounded?
in myself to face not solve, butto face the uncertainty that's
around me.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Because some of the elements at play are completely
different.
So sometimes when there's beencommunication breakdowns on
teams because when that happensit's obvious and it happens on
every team whenever you gethumans together yeah, and we
find that when people arehearing contradictory messages
(10:42):
from the inside, it's easy tosay, oh great, this is a
communication issue.
These are ways that we canaddress that.
These are some patterns that wecan put in place.
These are some practices thatwe can add, norms that we can
have around communication toimprove.
That is, the confusion and thechanging of minds and changing
(11:07):
of behaviors and changing ofrules and regulations are coming
from without like, from theoutside.
They're coming from the outsideand they're pressuring the group
on the inside, and I thinkthere are times where we're
talking to teams and they'restarting to point fingers at
each other and we almost hit thehit the pause button and say,
okay, pause, look around you.
Is this really about you all?
Or is this about the powersthat be that are, that are
(11:30):
changing and how things arecontinuously revolving, every
day when the clock turns right,because one thing that is going
to be consistent is there'salways going to be uncertainty
in the external world around us.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
We can rely on that.
That's always going to be thecase.
What Linda's emphasizing is howcan leaders and teams ask
themselves how are we going tonavigate the uncertainty around
us so that we can continue togrow and to develop and to meet
whatever goals and objectivesthat we find ourselves about?
And that really then tricklesdown into individuals asking
(12:07):
themselves what do I needpersonally to navigate
uncertainty, what may I needfrom the team members around me
and how can the organizationhelp me navigate and how can I
contribute to bringing some kindof traction to navigate through
uncertainty?
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Because, once again, the game has changed, the
context has changed, the rulesof engagement have changed.
So, whatever norms have beencreated on teams, there's almost
this disruption, this reshakingof all the pieces and all the
players, and that's where thisgreater sense of being adaptable
(12:42):
and being able to meet thepresent moment, the leaders that
can do that, will be thebreakthrough leaders.
Can we talk about some of thoseleaders?
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, I would love to hear about some examples of
leaders or organizations thatare doing this well.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Some of the leaders that I have talked to and I'm
thinking about, in particular, aleader that I'm coaching and as
I was asking questions abouthow they interact with
conflicting messages from theoutside, and this person, this
leader, just said I keep themission in mind and I choose the
highest and best that day.
(13:26):
And there was such a resolveabout this leader that it almost
gave me confidence and courageas well.
And so it wasn't oh, pin oneagainst the other and figure out
which one's right and whichone's wrong and then stir up
dissension among the team.
It was I have a job to do, Ihave people to protect and I
have a mission of why ourorganization was brought
(13:47):
together in the first place andwe're going to achieve it, and
that kind of clear confidencejust gave me encouragement in
that moment.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Another opportunity that leaders have when facing
uncertainty with their teammembers is asking individuals
what they need.
What is it that you need thatwill give you the confidence to
step toward the challenges thatare facing us, because we know
that each person's going to havesomething different, that they
need to feel confident or someway that they want to be
(14:16):
understood so that their levelof threat within uncertainty is
being decreased.
When we want people to beengaged in these challenging
times, we want them to beengaged in ways that are
generative and creative andcollaborative, and to do that, I
think leaders are tasked tocreate an environment where
(14:38):
people feel that they're heardand understood, that they're not
afraid to say, hey, I'm afraidtoo, but how can I help.
And for leaders to create thatspace is to create an
opportunity for the team membersto feel that there's a leader
that believes in them, despitewhatever's happening in the
external world.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
What does that look like for a leader to lead
without having all the answers,without knowing what's going to
happen, without being freakedout themselves, but being able
to not be like, oh no, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine but also
not be like ah, we're all goingto die.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Well, I think that there's a part of it is that
what we have seen with manyleaders is now in their own
unique way.
I tend to exaggerate and usehyperbole, but when way?
I tend to exaggerate and usehyperbole, but when leaders I
see both of you guys.
What we're seeing is that wethink that when leaders do this
(15:33):
well, they are letting theirfears, their threats, their
freak out moments be seen andheard by their teams and in that
way, they're not onlyexpressing I don't have all the
answers, they're not onlydemonstrating that they are
vulnerable, but it's givingpermission for other people to
feel that the same way.
I don't think there's anythingwrong with a leader freaking out
(15:57):
for a moment to let people knowthat they care, they're dialed
in and that they don't have theanswers themselves.
I think the leaders are.
You know, what I hope that theydon't do is say I have the
answers because we don't.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Well, I think, I think there's an appropriate
place for some of those Like.
I think the freak out needs tohappen with other like-minded
leaders and not necessarily, youknow, stirring up.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
All the freak outs.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Yeah, all the freak outs, and I don't think it's a
secret.
I think it is a leader that hasenough self-awareness, that
knows and has practicedemotional regulation, that has
practiced some good self-care,and I think self-care that looks
like good boundaries and beingable to ground to your values.
(16:45):
I think it's the leaders thatcan show some vulnerability like
this is not easy and to knowOkay, so what were you going to
say?
Anything Cause.
Then I have something else.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
No, no, I'm sorry to interrupt.
I just got like I keep thinkingabout all of Bernie Brown's
vulnerability stuff and that youknow we don't need to get into
that, but it's like, yeah,that's, that's a part of it to
be vulnerable, to not say I haveall the answers, Everything's
fine, but like I like that whatI?
Speaker 1 (17:26):
was thinking about is a lot of the leaders that we
work with or that reach out tous and continue to reach out to
us are what I'd like to callbenevolent disruptors.
And those benevolent disruptorsare always trying to change and
push the envelope and try newthings and encourage their
people to grow so that thebusiness grows, so that the
schools grow, whatever else.
And what we have found now, inthis period of world uncertainty
(17:47):
, is that some of thesebenevolent disruptors have
actually eased up.
No more new initiatives thisyear.
We're just going to clean upwhat we have.
We're just going to be boringfor a few months, and even that
kind of awareness of listen, I'mgoing to start to say no a
(18:10):
little bit more.
I know you're used to me sayingyes to all these different
things.
There's a leader I'm thinkingabout and she just said we are
just going to handle what we'vehandled.
No, no new initiatives untilthe next quarter.
And when we, when we hearthings like that and hear
stories like that and then watchthe people react and respond,
(18:32):
there is a different kind oflike.
Okay, then I don't have tobrace for the change, I don't
know at work and at home andwith my family and and yeah go
ahead, and what I mean it soundslike we're talking about is
going from reaction toresilience.
(18:52):
And so is there?
Speaker 2 (18:54):
yeah, because I mean, you know one models.
You could just be reacting likefreaking out, having like a big
oh no, but how do you, how doyou weather that?
Are there ways to help peopleshift around?
I'm thinking like you know theconversation we just had around
play.
Going back to your book, youknow, clarifying values or even
(19:19):
building systems that kind ofhave some of this uncertainty.
You know, think about abuilding.
They're designed to move withthe wind.
Like, is there some?
Like you don't make thebuilding so stiff that it's
never going to move becauseyou're not going to defeat the
wind, so you move it.
You make it like is there?
I don't know, is there any sortof equivalent?
I'm not an architect, yeah Isthere any sort of equivalent of
(19:42):
that with teams that you canhelp, that we can share, Like
again examples, that kind ofhelp teams sort of build that
into their natural process?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, let me set the foundation and then hand it off
to.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Brian, you are an architect?
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yes, I am Because I was trying to move with the
metaphor, thank you.
Yes, I am Because I was tryingto move with the metaphor, thank
you.
When you say like go fromreaction to resilience, the
first thing I think about is tobe able to have space, and it's
not like to bemoan it, but evena beat to say this is a reaction
, because I'm human, because I'mafraid, because I'm threatened,
(20:19):
because there's stress.
If we just move from anxiety toadaptability right away, we've
missed the moment to really sayis this my fear?
Is this all of our fear?
Beating fast, my hands arestarting to sweat.
(20:43):
I'm feeling the tension, beingable to understand quickly what
might be happening and be ableto name it once again, not to
dwell there, but to normalizethat.
That is a human reaction.
Then gives way to all right now.
What are we going to do Now?
What kind of plan can we makegoing forward?
Speaker 2 (21:00):
And that's what I want to end on, because there is
hope, there is a way forward.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
And so what gives you hope when you think about this
problem, this theme of the yearand uncertainty?
How would you leave ourlisteners with hope, with a
promise, with whatever tips,tricks?
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Well, the first thing yeah, the first thing I would
invite people and leaders to dois to consider that uncertainty
affects the whole person.
The uncertainty isn't justaffecting the person that shows
up at work.
It's affecting theirrelationship with their families
, the people that they live with, the communities that they're
involved in.
It's kind of anall-encompassing reality,
(21:43):
because there's uncertaintiesthat people are trying to
navigate that we may never knowof.
There are other elements atplay that are still unknown and
are a mystery.
So consider the whole person'sexperience with uncertainty.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
The second one is burnout.
Like paying attention tosymptoms of burnout.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
It's like.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Sometimes we'll see burnout first physically, where
we see leaders like wow, theylook tired, they look like
they've not slept.
There might be a lot going onand oftentimes we just can't
hide the physical impact of thestress that we might be under.
And so, being aware of pointsof burnout, I think it's more
(22:23):
normalized.
It's not just hidden away rightnow where it's like no, I'm
tired, I just need a beat, Likegive me a second.
And ways that we are trying towork with leaders, give them
some permission to just not runhot and extreme all the time,
but to find places like like aleader we met with a couple of
weeks ago and she just said Ifinally just had a attitude
(22:47):
adjustment and I wasn't going torespond so intensely anymore
that this was, I wasn't going tofight it, I was just going to
learn how to adapt within thenew confines it.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
I was just going to learn how to adapt within the
new confines, Because beingexposed to prolonged uncertainty
leads people to chronic stressand anxiety, where they're
living in constant states offight or flight, which isn't
healthy for people on really anylevel.
And that's why another way toemphasize how there is hope is
(23:19):
to consider and emphasizewellness with people, like
giving people permission to takea break and whatever wellness
looks like to the person.
How can we amplify that andgive people the opportunity to
pursue well and to be healthy isa release valve for some of the
symptoms of chronic stress andanxiety or connection.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
There was some company I was just reading about
on LinkedIn where they giveeach employee a hundred bucks
every month and they they haveto use that money.
Yes, they have to use thatmoney to do something with a
colleague, and right.
So it's obviously expense thatway or whatever.
(24:07):
But it's not just oh so thatyou can help your own bottom
line, but it's a specificinvestment into a group of
people or a small group ofpeople.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
One of the things my wife's company did a couple
years ago coming out of thepandemic, was they have a
wellness week where the entirecompany shuts down.
And what's so great is it's notjust like a vacation week where
people are still like, hey, Iknow you're on vacation, but can
you quickly look over the slidedeck or whatever.
And it's so good for morale thatpeople come back so much more
(24:41):
energized and so ready to go totown Cause they're like nobody
could email me, Nobody like wasbugging, Like it was just it was
so great.
So, whatever opportunities wehave for that, any final
thoughts here?
I know that we've kind of justasked.
I just kind of asked you forsome like quick takeaways, but
is there any like kind of justasked?
I just kind of asked you forsome like quick takeaways, but
is there any like kind of lastword that either of you would
(25:03):
like to leave on this, Becausethis isn't a topic we're
obviously going to, you know,tie up and put a bow on.
It's just sort of this ongoingthing.
But what would be, I don't know, maybe a final thought you'd
have to leave people with.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
You are not in charge of creating certainty for other
people.
You are not in charge ofcreating certainty for other
people.
You are invited to create thekind of connections that can
weather whatever certainty isahead of you, around you or
(25:38):
within you.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Thank you for listening to the Leadership
Vision Podcast, our show helpingyou build a positive team
culture.
If you found value from thisepisode about uncertainty and
would like more resources tohelp build your team, you can
click the link in the show notesor visit us on the web at
leadershipvisionconsultingcom.
We would also appreciate it ifyou could share it with someone
that you think would benefitfrom this.
(26:00):
Also, follow us on the socials,sign up for our free email
newsletter and if you haven'tyet picked up your copy of
Unfolded Lessons inTransformation from an Origami
Crane, I encourage you to dothat.
Also, link the show notes orwherever good books are sold.
I'm Nathan Friberg, I'm LindaSchubring and I'm Brian
Schubring, and on behalf of ourentire team, thanks for
listening.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Thanks for listening.
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