December 1, 2025 • 42 mins
What does your leadership voice communicate—before you even get to the content of your message? In this episode, Nathan, Brian, and Linda talk with Dr. Laura Sicola, cognitive linguist, executive communication coach, and author of Speaking to Influence: Mastering Your Leadership Voice.
Laura has spent over two decades helping leaders transform technical brilliance into real leadership impact. Together, we explore three big themes:
- Personal branding as a promise,
- Authenticity and the “prismatic voice,”
- How leaders can create engagement, clarity, and connection in virtual settings.
This conversation is full of practical tips, mindset shifts, and language tools that help leaders show up with presence, confidence, and intentional influence.
🔑 Key Themes & Takeaways
1. Your Brand Is a Promise
A personal brand isn’t a slogan—it’s the experience of you. If you don’t intentionally create it, it will create itself.
2. Authenticity Requires Flexibility
Genuine authenticity isn’t rigidity. It’s being able to flex different facets of yourself depending on context—your “prismatic voice.”
3. Avoiding Leadership Binaries
“Strong or kind,” “direct or approachable”—these false binaries limit leaders. Laura shows how to break free from either/or thinking.
4. Language Patterns That Undermine You
Words like “always,” “never,” and “everyone” trigger defensiveness and derail conversations—often without leaders realizing it.
5. Leading in a Virtual World
Engagement doesn’t happen by accident. Expectations, vocal presence, audio quality, and meeting structure all shape the room.
6. Fear of Judgment, Not Fear of Speaking
Most communication fear isn’t fear of speaking—but fear of scrutiny. Leadership requires the courage to take calculated risks.
📚 Resources Mentioned
- Speaking to Influence by Dr. Laura Sicola
- Dr. Sicola’s TEDx Talk: Want to Sound Like a Leader? Start by Saying Your Name Right
- Leadership Vision Podcast episodes on communication, presence, and team culture
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#1 in Business & #5 Overall on USA Today
#17 on Publisher’s Weekly Nonfiction
📘 Grab your copy + get the FREE Reflection Guide!
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Read the full blog post here!
CONTACT US
- email: connect@leadershipvisionconsulting.com
- Leadership Vision Online
ABOUT
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_04 (01:46):
It's not technically a fear of public speaking.
It's a fear of public judgment.
It's a fear of public scrutiny.
It's a fear of being shut downin public, which is why people
are then afraid to share theirgenuine thoughts and feelings,
whether it is one-on-one orone-to-many, virtual or in
person, on the stage or oncamera or you know, whatever the
(02:10):
situation is.
There's an old expression that Ithink too many people have
latched onto, which is better tokeep your mouth shut and let
people think you a fool than toopen your mouth and remove all
doubt.
Which is a very old-fashionedexpression.
But that doesn't help as aleader.
Because to lead, people need toknow what and who they are
(02:32):
leading.
If they don't know what youstand for, why would they get
behind you?
SPEAKER_01 (02:38):
You are listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast,
our show helping you buildpositive team culture.
Our consulting firm has beendoing this work for the past 25
years so that leaders arementally engaged and emotionally
healthy.
To learn more about our work,you can click the link in the
show notes or visit us on theweb at Leadership Vision
Consulting.com.
Hello, everyone.
My name is Nathan Freeberg, andtoday on the Leadership Vision
(03:00):
Podcast, we are talking with Dr.
Laura Sakola, a cognitivelinguistic leadership
communication expert and authorof the book Speaking to
Influence, Mastering YourLeadership Voice.
Laura has spent more than twodecades helping leaders
translate technical brillianceinto real leadership impact, and
she brings a sharp practicallens to how we show up when we
(03:22):
speak.
In this conversation, we diginto three big ideas.
First of all, your personalbrand.
Laura defines brand as thepromise of an experience and the
experience of a promiseconsistently delivered.
We talk about what that meansfor leaders and why, if you
don't intentionally shape yourbrand, it will quietly shape
itself for you.
Second, we explore authenticityand what Laura calls your
(03:45):
prismatic voice.
Instead of getting stuck infalse binaries, strong or kind,
direct or empathetic, she showshow great leaders flex different
facets of themselves fordifferent contexts without
losing integrity or becoming animposter.
Third, we get very practicalabout leading and connecting in
the virtual space.
From the language habits thataccidentally trigger
(04:07):
defensiveness to expectationsaround cameras.
Laura offers small specificshifts that make a huge
difference in how othersexperience you.
Now, whether you speak to a teamof just five people or an
organization of 5,000, thisepisode will help you think more
(04:30):
intentionally about how yousound, how you show up, and how
you read.
This is the Leisure, this is theLeadership Vision Podcast.
Let's jump in with Dr.
Laura Sicoma.
Laura, welcome to the show.
And what would you add orsubtract or tweak from that
intro?
SPEAKER_04 (04:50):
That was pretty solid.
So uh Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (04:53):
Good job.
SPEAKER_04 (04:54):
You passed.
SPEAKER_01 (04:55):
Okay.
You passed.
Well, what can you tell us aboutyourself that we can't find
online?
Like, uh are you a Phillies fan?
Are you an Eagles fan?
Are you we already got yourrecommendations for restaurants
at the beginning?
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (05:07):
Uh well, the funny thing is, of course, the uh
Eagles just played the Giantslast night, and uh I am in a
culture you talked aboutintercultural um communication
spaces, Linda.
Uh I am in a mixed marriage.
My husband is an Eagle sense.
I was raised a Giants.
SPEAKER_02 (05:22):
Oh.
SPEAKER_04 (05:23):
So it is a true meeting of the minds.
And uh nights like yesterday, Ijust have to you know fly my
flag very quietly.
There you go.
There you go.
But uh I was raised in innorthern New Jersey, so uh near
to the Meadowlands and all thatkind of fun stuff.
But at the moment, frankly, uhit's been so long since I fought
since I followed football.
SPEAKER_01 (05:42):
Yeah.
Can't uh stay there.
Except when your team wins, yougotta you gotta bring that
together.
SPEAKER_04 (05:47):
You can celebrate.
You know, you do the littlehappy dance and then gloat for a
moment and then move on.
SPEAKER_00 (05:51):
Move on to the next thing.
SPEAKER_04 (05:52):
Other things.
SPEAKER_00 (05:53):
Absolutely.
Laura, it's so great to have youon our podcast today.
One of the things that I thinkwould be a great place for us to
start is on this idea of brand.
I think that there are so manypeople that are concerned about
how they show up, um, whatthey're sounding like, and
they're concerned about the waypeople are interpreting them.
But I often feel that thereseems to be this um indecision
(06:15):
or even a collision of howpeople express themselves.
What are some of theobservations you're making on
this idea of people and how theypresent themselves as brand?
SPEAKER_04 (06:25):
And first of all, uh Brian and Linda, uh, Nathan,
everybody, thank you so much forhaving me uh on the show today.
The concept of personal brandingis something that is, per
definition, personal to so manypeople, but they forget that
they have to make the decisionintentionally.
Because if you don't activelychoose to create your brand, bad
(06:46):
news for you, it's gonna createitself for you.
And then you're gonna have towork a lot harder to
intentionally fix it.
And that's one thing we want toavoid.
And to me, I think the easiestdefinition of a brand is that a
brand is the promise of anexperience and the experience of
a promise consistentlydelivered.
SPEAKER_00 (07:07):
Ooh, why the word promise?
SPEAKER_04 (07:09):
Yeah, well, when you are interviewing for a job, when
you're trying to get a group ofpeople to trust you, when you
are trying to convince people tolead to follow you voluntarily,
not just because you outrankedthem on the org chart.
You're making a claim of onesort or other that when working
(07:30):
with me as your leader, as yourvendor, as your whoever it is,
you I promise you that you willalways experience what?
And being able to fill in thoseanswers for yourself, I think is
really important because thenyou're thinking about it.
(07:50):
Most people just go, well,because I'm smart and I'm good
at my job and we do good work atmy company, so you should hire
us.
Well, that's table stakes.
Anybody who doesn't think that,why would they be doing what
they do?
So what else is it that makesyou different, special, and most
(08:11):
importantly, exceptional, notjust as an expert, but as a
leader?
That's something we need tointentionally define.
SPEAKER_00 (08:20):
Laura, in your experience, how often do you
find people get that right?
Like what they're saying, likeyou know, like you're you're
asking people to make a bet onyou.
How often do people get thatthat right?
Because I feel if you're makingthis statement of here's how I'm
going to show up, that could bemisconstrued from you know the
the person saying it.
(08:41):
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_04 (08:42):
Sure.
And part of it is not so muchthat you need to have it written
out on a business card or onyour LinkedIn profile, uh, that
but you do need to think aboutwhat you want to convey.
So even one of the things that Iwork with in clients, an
exercise I have clients do oftenright from the beginning, is to
write a list of three to fivepersonal qualities that you want
(09:07):
your target audience, yourclients, your uh executive
leadership team in the board,your uh director ports, whoever
it is, to perceive in you.
And they single words, nouns oradjectives, and only one of
them, by the way, can be asynonym of the word smart
because everybody defaults to,well, smart and knowledgeable
(09:28):
and expert, and yeah, I have athesaurus to find something
else.
The uh it's almost like thosewords are if you remember the
old game show um Wheel ofFortune, at the end they would
have the at the bonus round orthe whatever round it was, and
they just give you the R-N-S-Tand E or something along those
lines.
It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, weknow you're gonna pick those.
(09:50):
Now pick something else.
I'm gonna give you smart at yourrole.
That's table spit takes.
Now, what else?
Do you want to come across asconfident, empathetic,
approachable, relatable,relatable, authoritative, uh,
you know, funny.
What doesn't matter, but what doyou want that brand to be?
Now you cannot walk up to aperson, introduce yourself, and
(10:14):
say, hi, I'm Laura Sakola, and Iam confident and approachable
and relatable and authoritative.
They're gonna go, uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03 (10:22):
Sure you are.
Sure.
SPEAKER_04 (10:23):
I'll I'll be the judge of that.
Yeah.
And that's the thing.
All of those qualities are theirsubjective interpretations of my
objective speech behaviors andnot so speech behaviors at
times.
So I have to figure out if thoseare the qualities I want them to
perceive in me, how am Icommunicating with people to get
(10:46):
them to conclude that I amindeed those things.
That is the challenge.
SPEAKER_02 (10:52):
So, as an expert in linguistics, I gotta be able to
say that.
As an expert in linguistics,help us and our listeners tie in
uh the speech and how we comeacross our authenticity with
that sense of brand and personalbrand and delivering on that
(11:12):
promise.
SPEAKER_04 (11:13):
I think an important point for people to recognize is
that branding, authenticity,being yourself, uh executive
presence, they are not thesemonolithic, mono you know, black
and white, monochromaticconstructs.
(11:34):
We have so many differentaspects to ourselves.
We still want to maintain ourintegrity, which doesn't just
mean honesty.
Integrity is about wholeness.
That's comes from the Latinroot, same like the word
integer, it's about being awhole to integrate.
But in that wholeness are manycolors.
I mean, I'm in my executivecoaching mode right now.
(11:56):
I also have a nine-year-old.
Probably won't surprise you toknow that I don't talk to him
like this, nor would I come onyour show and talk to your
audience the way I talk to him.
You would have hung up on me along time ago, unless it was
just strictly for comic effect,but certainly not for modeling
leadership communication.
Right.
But it's not that one of thosestyles is the real authentic me,
(12:17):
and one of those is fake.
It's contextual appropriateness,right?
You adapt, just like you changeyour wardrobe for different
contexts.
You have when you need to wearyour gym clothes, when you need
to wear your business casual,when you need to wear your fancy
formals.
It's all you, but it's differentfacets of you.
It's what I call your prismaticvoice.
(12:38):
So just like the littlecrystal-y thing in the uh
window, you see the sunshinethat shows that uh refracts into
all the little rainbow, allthose colors are inside.
We have all those colors.
We'll call this my my pinktoday, my red.
With my nine-year-old, we'llcall it my green.
Just depends.
In this context, when I'm goingthrough the prism of situation
X, which color needs to shinebrightest?
(13:00):
I'm gonna turn that one up, tonethe other one a little bit down,
but it's still me.
Authenticity must be flexibleand adaptable, or it is just
rigidity and that can't grow.
SPEAKER_00 (13:12):
Yeah.
Do you work with people aroundtheir fear to have that level of
flexibility in the demonstrationof who they are?
SPEAKER_04 (13:23):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And it's like it tends to startwith a mindset shift and
recognizing that flexing is notbeing inauthentic and is not
trying it may be uncomfortableinsofar as learning something
new.
You try and learn a new sport,you try to learn a new foreign
language.
(13:43):
In the beginning, you're gonnabe terrible at it.
SPEAKER_03 (13:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (13:47):
That's just the nature of the beast.
So it's okay, and it's not thatyou will necessarily be terrible
in the beginning of coaching uhand becoming a better leader,
but growth by itself meansgetting good at something that
in the beginning you're not anexpert at already.
So you have to be willing to gothere.
But often the what I have to dowith clients is figure out how
(14:13):
they can look at the two sidesthat they're wrestling with
internally, and sometimes more,but it's typically they can kind
of bucket it into two, like howcan I be both strong and
effective and approachable,night, nice, likable, whatever.
If anything, I get the the falsebinary of, well, you know, I've
got a reputation of being tooaggressive, too intimidating,
(14:35):
too strong.
I tried being nice and thatdidn't work.
So what am I supposed to do?
Where'd the binary come from?
Where'd the all or non-black orwhite?
So it's about looking at, okay,well, what are the values that
you have that say, I need to bestrong, I want to be good at
these things.
Good.
Let's identify the good in thoseintentions.
Now let's look at the good inwanting to be the other and
(14:57):
wanting to be approachable andwanting to be likable, not in
the high school popularitycontent sense of likable, but
just in you want to like yourboss, you want to like the
people you work with.
And then there's a way to kindof chunk up.
I do some work inneurolinguistic programming and
whatnot that helps people tointegrate those two kind of when
you when you hear people say,well, you know, on the one hand,
(15:17):
part of me wants this and partof me wants that, and they feel
stuck.
So how can I my work ends upbeing how do I start by helping
to show them where that reallyis all just one them?
It's not part of them and partof them.
They all are linked with thesame internal core values and
drive.
When they can let go of that,then we can work on the skill to
help them have thoseconversations in different ways.
SPEAKER_00 (15:40):
Laura, a couple questions.
Did you say one them?
A one them?
SPEAKER_04 (15:46):
There's one them.
SPEAKER_00 (15:47):
There's one them.
There's not two, there's one.
Did you say that?
unknown (15:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (15:51):
I don't recall the exact words, but the idea I may
have, yes, because it was it'sthe idea that there's not like
it's not this part of me andthat part of me where there's
two sections of or there's twosides, like what's the right
word?
Um bifurcated or yeah, wherethey feel like there's two parts
of them that they can'treconcile.
There's only one person, there'sonly one of them.
SPEAKER_00 (16:13):
Okay.
That's why that's what I thoughtI heard, parallel to some of the
ways I think.
Second, do you this is aquestion, and sometimes as a
shoe bring, my last name, wedon't know how to ask questions
as just a family trait.
Okay.
This is a question.
Um Do you Unless you married in?
SPEAKER_02 (16:29):
Unless you marry in.
Like those are commands, thoseare not questions.
SPEAKER_00 (16:32):
Okay.
Question.
Yes.
Are you seeing any correlationbetween between people in that
binary mentality and the binaryreality that's sometimes
presented within our culture?
Do you want to speak to that atall?
Voice.
Because part of our work.
That's why I'm asking.
(16:53):
And I'll give you like 15seconds of background.
So much of the work that we'redoing is in part recognizing the
context within people areexisting and what that's doing
to their mind and how it is thatthe brain needs to create a
binary reality to make a choice.
One choice that's safe, onechoice that's not.
(17:13):
How do we and so part of ourwork is how do we stand in the
middle as our authentic self,not needing to take a side and
be okay with that?
Because there's those thosepressures that sometimes I
believe that leaders are takenby surprise at how binary their
teams are, and they're caught inwhich side to choose.
SPEAKER_04 (17:34):
Yes.
Um we can spend the wholeconversation on that, and that's
such a great topic because Soyou're picking that up.
SPEAKER_00 (17:42):
So what I'm saying is you're feeling that that same
thing.
SPEAKER_04 (17:45):
Oh, absolutely.
Yes.
And I think that's a social umit's a natural human condition,
and it's one that in today'swithout getting political, in
today's climate, uh isunfortunately being encouraged.
SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
Correct.
SPEAKER_04 (18:02):
And that makes it really hard to do your job well.
SPEAKER_00 (18:04):
Yeah, and so when you talk about language, I think
that people when you're talkingabout language, we're finding
that leaders struggle with thelanguage of how they're
communicating because they areunintentionally offending half
the crowd while trying to alignwith all the crowd.
(18:26):
And it's not an intentional I Idon't think leaders are mindful
of what's happening until it'shappened.
And then there's this retreatingof what they've said to try to
create a connection with people.
SPEAKER_02 (18:40):
And the more they swing to the polarities, the
more people feel the impostersyndrome.
Which I think is that they'renot.
Which I think if people heldmore of the paradox and they
help they held more of the bothcan be true mentality, or I'm
somewhere in the middle, or itdepends on context, then they
wouldn't necessarily feel likean imposter.
SPEAKER_00 (19:01):
Because you're talking about so many things,
Laura, that we are swimming inthese waters on a daily basis.
And our focus is on how do wehelp people understand who they
actually are within a contextthat's either they can control
or that they can't control.
How can they be authenticallythem and not need to choose a
(19:23):
side?
SPEAKER_04 (19:26):
Am I answering the question now or are we gonna go
back and I would love to hearyou just what how about a
comment?
SPEAKER_00 (19:33):
Like, what are you hearing when when we say that?
Does it ring true to yourexperience?
SPEAKER_04 (19:40):
Absolutely.
Uh on gosh, so many levels.
The question of things like,well, can both be true?
Before we answer a binary uh,you know, two option question
with a binary answer of a yes orno, I think what's important is
to challenge ourselves to dig alittle deeper and challenge the
(20:03):
assumption that it's really abinary question in the first
place.
That why don't we look at whatis what are all the conditions?
What are the intentions behindit?
What are the competing factorsthat have created this?
I mean, anybody who does work innegotiations will tell you that
when you go for zero sum, that'snever going to work.
(20:23):
And it's also to Chris Voss andmany of the other uh negotiator,
negotiation masters points, it'snot about splitting the
difference.
That doesn't help necessarily.
And so looking at how much canyou back out, and NLP would
refer to it as chunk up, orother things to figure out what
(20:44):
are some of the truths involvedthat we can all agree on?
What are the fundamentals thatwe all want?
If if finance is arguing withdevelopment on budgets and
whatnot, is it that both, youknow, does one side have to win?
Okay, way up at the top, what dowe both want?
We both want the company to besuccessful.
(21:04):
We both want to have a peacefulwork environment.
We both want to be acknowledgedfor the good intentions of the
arguments that we're making andwhat we're trying to achieve.
Okay, there's there's so manyways.
I of course I'm generalizing atvery s basic levels to start,
but sometimes you do have to goup that far to begin to find
common ground and then back out.
(21:24):
And that goes for any politicalsituation, that goes for any
sort of work situation, thatgoes for any family situation.
People are people, no matter howmuch we'd like to think
otherwise.
SPEAKER_02 (21:36):
I like your thinking.
SPEAKER_04 (21:38):
It's the binary, and so one of the challenges, I just
got off a call uh with a newclient about maybe an hour ago,
and that was one of the firstthings that we did, because she
was having one of thesechallenges as far as reconciling
the strong and the nice.
And she asked uh she made acouple of points, and I said,
Well, number one, we need to goback.
And did you hear in just thelast 30 seconds worth I heard
(22:01):
three binary absolutes all ofthis, never that, everyone X.
Is that true?
Because when we use when we andshe didn't even realize she'd
said it.
And she was just, you know,making generalizations, but at
the same time, that shows amindset.
(22:21):
And those are the kinds ofthings that other people trigger
or get triggered by, I shouldsay.
And so they will totally ignorethe underlying premise of what
you're discussing and argue thevalidity of the absolute.
Is it really always, I don'talways, you're not always, we
don't never, we'll some and it'sthat's it's not about whether
(22:43):
it's truly all or never theissue that we want to focus on.
But now they're gonna argue thesemantics of the adverb.
So being mindful of those kindsof habits that we have and where
we end up tanking our ownefforts because we don't realize
that we've used some of thosepatterns unconsciously.
Boy, it's amazing.
(23:04):
Small details can make a hugedifference in your effectiveness
as a leader and otherwise, forthat matter, to me, it's all
about the finesse of thelanguage, and that's where you
thread the needle.
SPEAKER_02 (23:15):
Yes.
Is that what you did thismorning on the call?
Yes.
Because because we find thatit's just sometimes a gentle
mirroring back, like, whoa, Iheard you say that.
Yes.
Or I'm I was noticing this.
And then they they're making theown their own connections as
they go.
Yeah, okay.
And was there an aha or was uheven just Oh sure.
SPEAKER_04 (23:36):
As soon as I pointed that out, she went, Oh my gosh,
I really did.
And realized where she will tendto do that with her people, and
okay, this is going to besomething we're gonna work on.
How to be mindful and framingthings, either omit the adverb
or any adverb of time andfrequency, whatever, completely,
just address the thing, oracknowledge, you know, this is
(23:57):
something that often happens.
Or I've seen this uh three timesin the last week from you be as
concrete and specific in yourexamples as possible.
But just be careful not to allowgeneralization to turn into
hyperbole or stereotype.
Because that's where you'regonna learn, lose people.
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00 (24:14):
So many of these communication patterns that
you're speaking of, it seems tous that it that can be
complicated by the virtual rolethat we're playing as as
leaders.
Because we're now we're not youknow present with people in the
same room.
How have you found leading in avirtual world either more
(24:35):
cumbersome or what challenges isthat adding to a leader's
effectiveness?
SPEAKER_04 (24:41):
I think one of the biggest challenges for leaders
in the virtual space is one ofengagement.
It's hard enough to readpeople's thoughts and minds if
they're not proactivelyexplicitly articulating their
thoughts in person.
But when they're in the virtualspace, often people speak even
less, or somebody else willdominate at that point, allowing
(25:03):
other people to speak less.
There are uh I I there are teamsthat I work with where their
default is no cameras ever.
unknown (25:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (25:12):
Well, okay, I get that.
And the excuses I hear are we'rewe're tech.
Nobody wants to have cameras on.
Nobody ever has cameras on.
And if you could try it, butyou'd have to force them and
then they'd mutiny, and thenwe'd have this whole problem.
Okay, well what is theunderstanding of why?
And where are people going withthis?
And then we have to have allsorts of other conversations
about long-term culture,branding, where do they want
(25:33):
their careers to go, uh, etcetera?
So but how do you engage ifyou're trying to talk to a group
and you don't even know ifanybody's there?
They will all admit that whenyou're talking to a room full to
a whole screen full of blacksquares just with names in the
corner, what's the one thingthat's going through your head?
And they will all immediatelysay, Is anybody there?
SPEAKER_03 (25:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (25:54):
Is anybody listening?
SPEAKER_03 (25:55):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (25:56):
Well, what does that say?
What what do you expect to comeout of that?
So the people will rise to theexpectations that we set for
them.
And that's even more importantin the virtual world.
That's interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (26:08):
Because I'm old enough to remember conference
calls, you know, and maybe beingat a table with six leaders and
someone saying something on theconference call and someone's
rolling their eyes, but also butsaying a really politically
appropriate response to whateverhappened, even though they just
rolled their eyes.
So I'm wondering, from yourperspective, how has the Zoom or
(26:31):
the video conferencing changedsome of the virtual connection?
Because it's that not there andthey don't use it, and then
people aren't taking it.
SPEAKER_04 (26:41):
Like anything else, video conferencing is a tool and
it can be used effectively andit can be used ineffectively,
uh, assuming it's used at all.
And I mean hybrid situations arecomplicated.
I just got off um a call justyesterday or the day before with
someone who was complaining thatthe these two partners were
(27:03):
often the ones videoconferencing in to board
meetings that were in person.
And so they were expected toparticipate, you know, when the
time call came.
But half the time the boardmembers were just like mumbling
to each other, having these sideconversations, and nobody was
speaking loud enough for them tohear while their faces are
plastered on this giant screenfor everybody else to see, every
(27:26):
eyebrow flinch, every nostrilflare.
But they just saw a screen witha bunch of black dots around a
table.
And they weren't really beingincluded.
And this is where leadershipcomes in, because I think when
you're leading a virtualmeeting, especially a hybrid
meeting, it is absolutelyincumbent upon you to ensure
that everyone is included inevery aspect of the
(27:49):
conversation.
So you need to be conscious on akind of a metacognitive level
and say, gee, you know, Bob,Jane, can you two hear the
conversation?
Can you hear?
And if they say no, then keeptelling, okay, Marsha and
Harvey, you two need to, ifyou're gonna have this
conversation, great, but pleasespeak up so we can include
everybody in it.
And if not, then hey, Marsha andHarvey, I know this is the board
(28:10):
meeting and not seventh grade,but could you just stop acting
like it's seventh grade andhaving the side conversation and
include everybody in the room?
This is part of the challenge.
I would do it a little morediplomatically than I just
suggested, uh tongue in cheek,as it were, but it is a explicit
conversation, explicitinstruction guidelines,
(28:31):
expectations, acknowledging whensomeone is or isn't meeting
those expectations and gettingthem to adjust as necessary.
That's all part of leadership inthe virtual world, and the
standards need to be held higherfor the results to be just as
good as in the personal space,because otherwise the technology
will sabotage us, and mostpeople are sinking to a level of
(28:53):
unchallenged mediocrity.
SPEAKER_01 (28:56):
Most people are sinking to a level of
unchallenged mediocrity.
Wow.
That should be on a t-shirt.
SPEAKER_04 (29:06):
I sink to a level of unchallenged mediocrity.
Proud of unchallenged mediocreand proud of it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:11):
That's good.
Laura, it's funny you ended withthat phrase because I was gonna
ask you if you have an exampleof this being done well, of
virtual leadership being donewell.
SPEAKER_04 (29:24):
Um yes.
I mean, to the extent that whenwhen uh COVID was in its heyday,
let's put it that way, andeverybody was now officially on
camera all the time, stillfreaking out, hair on fire, and
doing it really, really badly.
There was a chief strategyofficer that I worked with at a
healthcare system.
And uh he, to him, it wasimportant that his team learn
(29:49):
how to do this well because theyhad a lot of influence that they
needed to get a lot of buy-inacross a lot of different
verticals through this uh wholehealthcare system.
So we did some intensivetraining, worked with the team
as a group, and then someongoing coaching to make sure
that they were able to reallynot just command the room in
person, but command the screenin the virtual space so that
(30:12):
they were still projecting theauthority, getting the buy-in,
making sure they were connectingwith the audience as necessary.
And um, when we finished, thethere was a big board meeting
that they were preparing for,and he called me after it was
done.
And he said, Yeah, we got someinteresting fruit feedback from
so and so.
I said, Oh, yes, what was that?
He goes, Yeah.
He said, Why don't your peoplesuck at this?
SPEAKER_02 (30:35):
Oh.
Thank you.
Is that what a compliment?
SPEAKER_04 (30:39):
Yes, exactly.
You know, it's like, well, whatdid you do?
What happened?
Because they all and many ofthem were not particularly
high-ranking on a relative levelto the board, but they were
brought in to do their job.
And they they mastered what Icall the three C's, and that's
all throughout my book andeverything I've done since the
ability to command the room, orin this case the screen, to
(31:01):
connect with the audience and toclose the deal, and they nailed
it.
They was managing up at its verybest.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (31:08):
I love that.
Um we do so much that's onlineand and virtual, and still one
of our goals is to create anemotional connection with
someone in a virtual way.
So, Laura, how is it that peopleare creating meaningful
connections while leading in avirtual environment?
SPEAKER_04 (31:27):
The the beauty, Brian, is that I think we tend
to overthink this a lot andimagine that it's much harder
than it is.
And often it's small detailsthat we can do that make another
big difference in that.
One of which, frankly, is thequality of your microphone.
I think all of us are on thesimilar level.
Looks like a sure SM7B, which isyou know a nice Lamborghini of a
(31:50):
microphone.
But you there's a little plugfor sure I should get royalties
for recommending it.
But the the quality of yourmicrophone, you don't need a
Lamborghini like we're using,but you shouldn't be on a
tricycle either.
And most laptop, most peoplejust use whatever's embedded in
their laptop where they usetheir earbuds or even AirPods
(32:10):
for that matter.
And for as expensive as theyare, the microphone is lousy.
So do not go in that direction.
But to upgrade, you know,$100,$150 for a decent mic makes a
huge difference becauseotherwise you sound like this.
SPEAKER_01 (32:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (32:25):
And most people And this is a cognitive, I mean,
Brian, you should be able toeven talk to this more than I
can.
But when when the sound is hardto parse through and it's like
you're looking through fog, itcreates a level of a cognitive
processing burden for thelistener.
And let's face it, people'sattention span is pretty
(32:47):
abysmal, abysmally shortnowadays.
Well, and they barely payattention if they are interested
in what you're saying.
But if you're going to make themwork, first and foremost, to
just understand what the wordswere, much less to understand,
do I understand what they mean?
Do I agree with them?
How do I want to respond tothem?
They're going to go, ugh, Ican't be bothered, and they're
(33:07):
going to go multitask, which is,I believe, the new definition of
multitasking is paying attentionto everything except you.
SPEAKER_03 (33:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (33:15):
So how do we get them to stay focused?
And the you don't want to be theperson where when everybody else
sounds like this and then youtalk and you sound like this.
And you sound like CharlieBrown's teacher, everyone
immediately goes, Oh, I don'twant to listen to that.
And they tune out.
You want to be on the flip sidewhere most people, again,
hitting that unchallenged levelof mediocrity, most people sound
like this, and then you cutthrough the fog.
(33:37):
And it's like, wow.
I did a a virtual training forthe um executive leadership team
of a client company a littlewhile ago.
And they had already been on avirtual meeting for maybe two
hours before I got on.
So they were a little zoomedout, as it were.
And the person introduces me,explains what the training was
(33:59):
we were going to do virtually.
And I got through about 30seconds of introduction opening
and before one of the VPs uminterrupts and goes, Wait, wait,
Laura, what are you doing?
I said, I'm I'm sorry, what?
What do you mean?
And he said, What are you doing?
What are you doing with yourvoice?
I don't know what you're doing,but all of a sudden you started
to talk, and I just sat up and Izoomed, focused in, and I
(34:23):
realized I was hanging oneverything that you said.
What are you doing with yourvoice?
And are you going to teach ushow to do that?
Yeah.
And I thought, it's actuallyboth.
Yes, it is part of how I'mspeaking and the way that I'm
doing it, as opposed to thelaundry list, and now I'm going
to read off the ingredients onthe back of my shampoo bottle.
(34:43):
Uh like how most people seem togo through their talking points
of a meeting.
Correct.
Correct.
But at the same time, yes, mymicrophone is laser clear and
nobody else's was.
And it did help.
It's like a jolt of energy thatcame through their systems.
Uh, so it's a both and.
(35:04):
You can't just have one and notthe other if you want to
maximize your impact.
SPEAKER_01 (35:08):
Well, it's interesting you start talking
about microphones because at theend of the book, you have some
very specific recommendationsfor how to hold a microphone,
where to put the lav pack, likewhat kind of clothes to wear.
I'm wondering if you have anyspecific tips you could leave
our audience with about, youknow, like a takeaway from your
book.
Like, yes, commanding themicrophone like is a skill.
(35:30):
What are like the softer skills?
Or like if there's one thingthat you could leave us with
that would help some kind of onthat journey to mastering their
leadership voice, what wouldthat be?
I know it's hard to summarize itall, but okay, how to narrow
that down.
I know, right?
SPEAKER_04 (35:48):
What's I'd be curious to know what's the
biggest hang-up you tend to hearfrom your clients?
Any of you?
SPEAKER_00 (35:56):
Ooh.
Okay, I'm gonna go first andjust pave the way.
A fear to authentically speaktheir perspective.
Like this is what I see, likeauthentically for someone to say
that out loud.
Um, because I feel that peopleare actually asking for that
because when someone speaks intheir voice, it tends to be that
(36:19):
penetrating truth that creates aspace for others to hear.
SPEAKER_02 (36:25):
I would also say that what we're hearing now is
that when people are trying tolead or direct or manage a
group, they are competing withphones.
They're competing with mobiledevices.
And so even the sit-up and like,what did you do there?
Sit up and talk, like whathappened.
(36:49):
People are looking for thatquick fix.
And I just wonder if it's likerooting into their authenticity.
So that's another thing that wewe are hearing and seeing.
SPEAKER_01 (36:59):
I'm hearing and seeing from people, just a fear
of public speaking.
And I have air quotes because II think in your book or
somewhere I heard you say publicspeaking is anytime you're
speaking to someone or two oranyone other than yourself.
Right.
Right.
And so sometimes there's justthat fear of like I clam up, I
get nervous.
Uh some of you know, I thinkthat's just practice getting
over that, but just tellingsomeone, you know, picture
(37:21):
everyone in your underwear, thatdoesn't necessarily help help
ease that.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (37:28):
Yeah.
Um would love to address um allof these, frankly.
It's like a whole separatepodcast.
Whatever's interesting.
Yeah, right.
I guess two things.
Maybe three.
And you can delete the ones thatyou don't that are less
interesting.
(37:49):
Um as far as the fear of publicspeaking is concerned, it's not
technically a fear of publicspeaking.
It's a fear of public judgment.
SPEAKER_03 (37:59):
Oh.
SPEAKER_04 (37:59):
It's a fear of public scrutiny.
It's a fear of being shot downin public, which is why people
are then afraid to share theirgenuine thoughts and feelings,
whether it is one-on-one orone-to-many, virtual or in
person, on the stage or oncamera or you know, whatever the
(38:21):
situation is.
There's an old expression that Ithink too many people have have
latched onto, which is better tokeep your mouth shut and let
people think you a fool than toopen your mouth and remove all
doubt.
SPEAKER_03 (38:33):
Yep.
SPEAKER_04 (38:34):
Which is a very you know old-fashioned expression.
But that doesn't help as aleader.
Yeah, because to lead, peopleneed to know what and who they
are leading.
If they don't know what youstand for, why would they get
behind you?
Did you ever see the showHamilton?
SPEAKER_01 (38:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (38:53):
You know, great show.
And uh there's a line that AaronBurr has it multiple times.
It's about you know, smile orwhat is it, talk less, smile
for, don't let them know whatyou're against or what you're
for, something along thoselines.
And but that's why Hamilton atthe end cast his vote in favor
(39:13):
of Jefferson, saying, No, Ican't, I don't know what you
stand for.
So why would I follow you?
I don't trust you as a leader oras an individual for that
matter.
So we need to be able to takesome calculated risks and share
our perspective.
If you want you can't get a yesif you don't ask the question in
(39:37):
the first place.
Oh as far as the things likecompeting with phones, competing
for attention, competing forrespect, competing for uh for
yeses, et cetera, this goes backto that same challenge where you
have to ask or you can't get theyes.
(39:58):
And that also means you have togive people expectations.
You have to ask them, you knowwhat, tomorrow, maybe not in
five minutes, like, hey, it'sgreat that you all joined here
today, turn your cameras on now.
Because okay, maybe they didn'tshave, they didn't, you know,
they are still in their pajamas,who knows what's going on if
that's the expectation thatcameras are never on.
But I can say to you tomorrow,when we join this meeting, I
(40:19):
need the cameras to be on forthe first 15 minutes.
So that expectation, and you mayneed to talk them through it or
deal with other things, but ifyou just assume that they won't
like it, so you don't ask, thenthe tail is wagging the dog.
And you're getting exactly whatyou are asking for, which is
nothing.
SPEAKER_01 (40:39):
That's good.
That's good.
SPEAKER_04 (40:41):
They are rising to the standard that you set.
SPEAKER_00 (40:43):
The second part of that t-shirt.
Laura, this has been phenomenal.
I feel that there are just somany different trails that this
can lead to.
Um because so much of what somuch of what you're talking
about is the lived experience ofmany of the leaders that we are
currently working with.
SPEAKER_03 (41:04):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (41:04):
The current struggles that most people don't
know they're in the struggle.
They feel something's off, butthey really don't have the words
yet to articulate it.
So what I like about ourconversation today is the way
that you are giving us somelanguage and some examples of
how to really understand what'sgoing on, whether we are
(41:25):
conscious of it or not.
So that leaders can pay moreattention and be more aware of
how they're being perceived andhow they can really lead others
in a way that brings life toeverybody.
SPEAKER_03 (41:37):
That's great.
SPEAKER_01 (41:38):
Thank you so much.
It's uh you know, all the prep Idid, other podcasts, TED Talk
and stuff, and and even yourbook, just like the consistency
of message and the authenticitythat I sense throughout that in
the now here today.
I just I really appreciate that.
And so thank you for uh givingus your time and sharing your
wisdom with us.
SPEAKER_04 (41:56):
Thank you for the opportunity.
I've that the conversations havebeen great.
I love being able to talk tosomeone who's in the space as
well, as opposed to whateverother angles that my work might
be relevant, but you know, it'sit's a little bit different.
SPEAKER_01 (42:17):
Thank you for listening to the Leadership
Vision Podcast, our show helpingyou build positive team culture.
If you found value from thisepisode or any of our other
materials, we'd appreciate it ifyou could join a free email
newsletter.
Uh, subscribe and follow us onYouTube, on Spotify, on Apple
Podcasts, wherever you get anyof those things, leave us a
(42:37):
review.
Also, another big thank you toDr.
Laura Sakola for taking the timeto chat with us.
It was very interesting and sucha great conversation.
I loved hearing not only herexamples, but just the interplay
between Brian, Linda, and Lauraand just how our work seemed to
be so complimentary.
So thank you for listening.
My name is Nathan Freeberg onbehalf of our entire team.
(43:00):
Thanks for listening.
It's not technically a fear of public speaking.
It's a fear of public judgment.
It's a fear of public scrutiny.
It's a fear of being shut downin public, which is why people
are then afraid to share theirgenuine thoughts and feelings,
whether it is one-on-one orone-to-many, virtual or in
person, on the stage or oncamera or you know, whatever the
(02:10):
situation is.
There's an old expression that Ithink too many people have
latched onto, which is better tokeep your mouth shut and let
people think you a fool than toopen your mouth and remove all
doubt.
Which is a very old-fashionedexpression.
But that doesn't help as aleader.
Because to lead, people need toknow what and who they are
(02:32):
leading.
If they don't know what youstand for, why would they get
behind you?
SPEAKER_01 (02:38):
You are listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast,
our show helping you buildpositive team culture.
Our consulting firm has beendoing this work for the past 25
years so that leaders arementally engaged and emotionally
healthy.
To learn more about our work,you can click the link in the
show notes or visit us on theweb at Leadership Vision
Consulting.com.
Hello, everyone.
My name is Nathan Freeberg, andtoday on the Leadership Vision
(03:00):
Podcast, we are talking with Dr.
Laura Sakola, a cognitivelinguistic leadership
communication expert and authorof the book Speaking to
Influence, Mastering YourLeadership Voice.
Laura has spent more than twodecades helping leaders
translate technical brillianceinto real leadership impact, and
she brings a sharp practicallens to how we show up when we
(03:22):
speak.
In this conversation, we diginto three big ideas.
First of all, your personalbrand.
Laura defines brand as thepromise of an experience and the
experience of a promiseconsistently delivered.
We talk about what that meansfor leaders and why, if you
don't intentionally shape yourbrand, it will quietly shape
itself for you.
Second, we explore authenticityand what Laura calls your
(03:45):
prismatic voice.
Instead of getting stuck infalse binaries, strong or kind,
direct or empathetic, she showshow great leaders flex different
facets of themselves fordifferent contexts without
losing integrity or becoming animposter.
Third, we get very practicalabout leading and connecting in
the virtual space.
From the language habits thataccidentally trigger
(04:07):
defensiveness to expectationsaround cameras.
Laura offers small specificshifts that make a huge
difference in how othersexperience you.
Now, whether you speak to a teamof just five people or an
organization of 5,000, thisepisode will help you think more
(04:30):
intentionally about how yousound, how you show up, and how
you read.
This is the Leisure, this is theLeadership Vision Podcast.
Let's jump in with Dr.
Laura Sicoma.
Laura, welcome to the show.
And what would you add orsubtract or tweak from that
intro?
SPEAKER_04 (04:50):
That was pretty solid.
So uh Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (04:53):
Good job.
SPEAKER_04 (04:54):
You passed.
SPEAKER_01 (04:55):
Okay.
You passed.
Well, what can you tell us aboutyourself that we can't find
online?
Like, uh are you a Phillies fan?
Are you an Eagles fan?
Are you we already got yourrecommendations for restaurants
at the beginning?
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (05:07):
Uh well, the funny thing is, of course, the uh
Eagles just played the Giantslast night, and uh I am in a
culture you talked aboutintercultural um communication
spaces, Linda.
Uh I am in a mixed marriage.
My husband is an Eagle sense.
I was raised a Giants.
SPEAKER_02 (05:22):
Oh.
SPEAKER_04 (05:23):
So it is a true meeting of the minds.
And uh nights like yesterday, Ijust have to you know fly my
flag very quietly.
There you go.
There you go.
But uh I was raised in innorthern New Jersey, so uh near
to the Meadowlands and all thatkind of fun stuff.
But at the moment, frankly, uhit's been so long since I fought
since I followed football.
SPEAKER_01 (05:42):
Yeah.
Can't uh stay there.
Except when your team wins, yougotta you gotta bring that
together.
SPEAKER_04 (05:47):
You can celebrate.
You know, you do the littlehappy dance and then gloat for a
moment and then move on.
SPEAKER_00 (05:51):
Move on to the next thing.
SPEAKER_04 (05:52):
Other things.
SPEAKER_00 (05:53):
Absolutely.
Laura, it's so great to have youon our podcast today.
One of the things that I thinkwould be a great place for us to
start is on this idea of brand.
I think that there are so manypeople that are concerned about
how they show up, um, whatthey're sounding like, and
they're concerned about the waypeople are interpreting them.
But I often feel that thereseems to be this um indecision
(06:15):
or even a collision of howpeople express themselves.
What are some of theobservations you're making on
this idea of people and how theypresent themselves as brand?
SPEAKER_04 (06:25):
And first of all, uh Brian and Linda, uh, Nathan,
everybody, thank you so much forhaving me uh on the show today.
The concept of personal brandingis something that is, per
definition, personal to so manypeople, but they forget that
they have to make the decisionintentionally.
Because if you don't activelychoose to create your brand, bad
(06:46):
news for you, it's gonna createitself for you.
And then you're gonna have towork a lot harder to
intentionally fix it.
And that's one thing we want toavoid.
And to me, I think the easiestdefinition of a brand is that a
brand is the promise of anexperience and the experience of
a promise consistentlydelivered.
SPEAKER_00 (07:07):
Ooh, why the word promise?
SPEAKER_04 (07:09):
Yeah, well, when you are interviewing for a job, when
you're trying to get a group ofpeople to trust you, when you
are trying to convince people tolead to follow you voluntarily,
not just because you outrankedthem on the org chart.
You're making a claim of onesort or other that when working
(07:30):
with me as your leader, as yourvendor, as your whoever it is,
you I promise you that you willalways experience what?
And being able to fill in thoseanswers for yourself, I think is
really important because thenyou're thinking about it.
(07:50):
Most people just go, well,because I'm smart and I'm good
at my job and we do good work atmy company, so you should hire
us.
Well, that's table stakes.
Anybody who doesn't think that,why would they be doing what
they do?
So what else is it that makesyou different, special, and most
(08:11):
importantly, exceptional, notjust as an expert, but as a
leader?
That's something we need tointentionally define.
SPEAKER_00 (08:20):
Laura, in your experience, how often do you
find people get that right?
Like what they're saying, likeyou know, like you're you're
asking people to make a bet onyou.
How often do people get thatthat right?
Because I feel if you're makingthis statement of here's how I'm
going to show up, that could bemisconstrued from you know the
the person saying it.
(08:41):
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_04 (08:42):
Sure.
And part of it is not so muchthat you need to have it written
out on a business card or onyour LinkedIn profile, uh, that
but you do need to think aboutwhat you want to convey.
So even one of the things that Iwork with in clients, an
exercise I have clients do oftenright from the beginning, is to
write a list of three to fivepersonal qualities that you want
(09:07):
your target audience, yourclients, your uh executive
leadership team in the board,your uh director ports, whoever
it is, to perceive in you.
And they single words, nouns oradjectives, and only one of
them, by the way, can be asynonym of the word smart
because everybody defaults to,well, smart and knowledgeable
(09:28):
and expert, and yeah, I have athesaurus to find something
else.
The uh it's almost like thosewords are if you remember the
old game show um Wheel ofFortune, at the end they would
have the at the bonus round orthe whatever round it was, and
they just give you the R-N-S-Tand E or something along those
lines.
It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, weknow you're gonna pick those.
(09:50):
Now pick something else.
I'm gonna give you smart at yourrole.
That's table spit takes.
Now, what else?
Do you want to come across asconfident, empathetic,
approachable, relatable,relatable, authoritative, uh,
you know, funny.
What doesn't matter, but what doyou want that brand to be?
Now you cannot walk up to aperson, introduce yourself, and
(10:14):
say, hi, I'm Laura Sakola, and Iam confident and approachable
and relatable and authoritative.
They're gonna go, uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03 (10:22):
Sure you are.
Sure.
SPEAKER_04 (10:23):
I'll I'll be the judge of that.
Yeah.
And that's the thing.
All of those qualities are theirsubjective interpretations of my
objective speech behaviors andnot so speech behaviors at
times.
So I have to figure out if thoseare the qualities I want them to
perceive in me, how am Icommunicating with people to get
(10:46):
them to conclude that I amindeed those things.
That is the challenge.
SPEAKER_02 (10:52):
So, as an expert in linguistics, I gotta be able to
say that.
As an expert in linguistics,help us and our listeners tie in
uh the speech and how we comeacross our authenticity with
that sense of brand and personalbrand and delivering on that
(11:12):
promise.
SPEAKER_04 (11:13):
I think an important point for people to recognize is
that branding, authenticity,being yourself, uh executive
presence, they are not thesemonolithic, mono you know, black
and white, monochromaticconstructs.
(11:34):
We have so many differentaspects to ourselves.
We still want to maintain ourintegrity, which doesn't just
mean honesty.
Integrity is about wholeness.
That's comes from the Latinroot, same like the word
integer, it's about being awhole to integrate.
But in that wholeness are manycolors.
I mean, I'm in my executivecoaching mode right now.
(11:56):
I also have a nine-year-old.
Probably won't surprise you toknow that I don't talk to him
like this, nor would I come onyour show and talk to your
audience the way I talk to him.
You would have hung up on me along time ago, unless it was
just strictly for comic effect,but certainly not for modeling
leadership communication.
Right.
But it's not that one of thosestyles is the real authentic me,
(12:17):
and one of those is fake.
It's contextual appropriateness,right?
You adapt, just like you changeyour wardrobe for different
contexts.
You have when you need to wearyour gym clothes, when you need
to wear your business casual,when you need to wear your fancy
formals.
It's all you, but it's differentfacets of you.
It's what I call your prismaticvoice.
(12:38):
So just like the littlecrystal-y thing in the uh
window, you see the sunshinethat shows that uh refracts into
all the little rainbow, allthose colors are inside.
We have all those colors.
We'll call this my my pinktoday, my red.
With my nine-year-old, we'llcall it my green.
Just depends.
In this context, when I'm goingthrough the prism of situation
X, which color needs to shinebrightest?
(13:00):
I'm gonna turn that one up, tonethe other one a little bit down,
but it's still me.
Authenticity must be flexibleand adaptable, or it is just
rigidity and that can't grow.
SPEAKER_00 (13:12):
Yeah.
Do you work with people aroundtheir fear to have that level of
flexibility in the demonstrationof who they are?
SPEAKER_04 (13:23):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And it's like it tends to startwith a mindset shift and
recognizing that flexing is notbeing inauthentic and is not
trying it may be uncomfortableinsofar as learning something
new.
You try and learn a new sport,you try to learn a new foreign
language.
(13:43):
In the beginning, you're gonnabe terrible at it.
SPEAKER_03 (13:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (13:47):
That's just the nature of the beast.
So it's okay, and it's not thatyou will necessarily be terrible
in the beginning of coaching uhand becoming a better leader,
but growth by itself meansgetting good at something that
in the beginning you're not anexpert at already.
So you have to be willing to gothere.
But often the what I have to dowith clients is figure out how
(14:13):
they can look at the two sidesthat they're wrestling with
internally, and sometimes more,but it's typically they can kind
of bucket it into two, like howcan I be both strong and
effective and approachable,night, nice, likable, whatever.
If anything, I get the the falsebinary of, well, you know, I've
got a reputation of being tooaggressive, too intimidating,
(14:35):
too strong.
I tried being nice and thatdidn't work.
So what am I supposed to do?
Where'd the binary come from?
Where'd the all or non-black orwhite?
So it's about looking at, okay,well, what are the values that
you have that say, I need to bestrong, I want to be good at
these things.
Good.
Let's identify the good in thoseintentions.
Now let's look at the good inwanting to be the other and
(14:57):
wanting to be approachable andwanting to be likable, not in
the high school popularitycontent sense of likable, but
just in you want to like yourboss, you want to like the
people you work with.
And then there's a way to kindof chunk up.
I do some work inneurolinguistic programming and
whatnot that helps people tointegrate those two kind of when
you when you hear people say,well, you know, on the one hand,
(15:17):
part of me wants this and partof me wants that, and they feel
stuck.
So how can I my work ends upbeing how do I start by helping
to show them where that reallyis all just one them?
It's not part of them and partof them.
They all are linked with thesame internal core values and
drive.
When they can let go of that,then we can work on the skill to
help them have thoseconversations in different ways.
SPEAKER_00 (15:40):
Laura, a couple questions.
Did you say one them?
A one them?
SPEAKER_04 (15:46):
There's one them.
SPEAKER_00 (15:47):
There's one them.
There's not two, there's one.
Did you say that?
unknown (15:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (15:51):
I don't recall the exact words, but the idea I may
have, yes, because it was it'sthe idea that there's not like
it's not this part of me andthat part of me where there's
two sections of or there's twosides, like what's the right
word?
Um bifurcated or yeah, wherethey feel like there's two parts
of them that they can'treconcile.
There's only one person, there'sonly one of them.
SPEAKER_00 (16:13):
Okay.
That's why that's what I thoughtI heard, parallel to some of the
ways I think.
Second, do you this is aquestion, and sometimes as a
shoe bring, my last name, wedon't know how to ask questions
as just a family trait.
Okay.
This is a question.
Um Do you Unless you married in?
SPEAKER_02 (16:29):
Unless you marry in.
Like those are commands, thoseare not questions.
SPEAKER_00 (16:32):
Okay.
Question.
Yes.
Are you seeing any correlationbetween between people in that
binary mentality and the binaryreality that's sometimes
presented within our culture?
Do you want to speak to that atall?
Voice.
Because part of our work.
That's why I'm asking.
(16:53):
And I'll give you like 15seconds of background.
So much of the work that we'redoing is in part recognizing the
context within people areexisting and what that's doing
to their mind and how it is thatthe brain needs to create a
binary reality to make a choice.
One choice that's safe, onechoice that's not.
(17:13):
How do we and so part of ourwork is how do we stand in the
middle as our authentic self,not needing to take a side and
be okay with that?
Because there's those thosepressures that sometimes I
believe that leaders are takenby surprise at how binary their
teams are, and they're caught inwhich side to choose.
SPEAKER_04 (17:34):
Yes.
Um we can spend the wholeconversation on that, and that's
such a great topic because Soyou're picking that up.
SPEAKER_00 (17:42):
So what I'm saying is you're feeling that that same
thing.
SPEAKER_04 (17:45):
Oh, absolutely.
Yes.
And I think that's a social umit's a natural human condition,
and it's one that in today'swithout getting political, in
today's climate, uh isunfortunately being encouraged.
SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
Correct.
SPEAKER_04 (18:02):
And that makes it really hard to do your job well.
SPEAKER_00 (18:04):
Yeah, and so when you talk about language, I think
that people when you're talkingabout language, we're finding
that leaders struggle with thelanguage of how they're
communicating because they areunintentionally offending half
the crowd while trying to alignwith all the crowd.
(18:26):
And it's not an intentional I Idon't think leaders are mindful
of what's happening until it'shappened.
And then there's this retreatingof what they've said to try to
create a connection with people.
SPEAKER_02 (18:40):
And the more they swing to the polarities, the
more people feel the impostersyndrome.
Which I think is that they'renot.
Which I think if people heldmore of the paradox and they
help they held more of the bothcan be true mentality, or I'm
somewhere in the middle, or itdepends on context, then they
wouldn't necessarily feel likean imposter.
SPEAKER_00 (19:01):
Because you're talking about so many things,
Laura, that we are swimming inthese waters on a daily basis.
And our focus is on how do wehelp people understand who they
actually are within a contextthat's either they can control
or that they can't control.
How can they be authenticallythem and not need to choose a
(19:23):
side?
SPEAKER_04 (19:26):
Am I answering the question now or are we gonna go
back and I would love to hearyou just what how about a
comment?
SPEAKER_00 (19:33):
Like, what are you hearing when when we say that?
Does it ring true to yourexperience?
SPEAKER_04 (19:40):
Absolutely.
Uh on gosh, so many levels.
The question of things like,well, can both be true?
Before we answer a binary uh,you know, two option question
with a binary answer of a yes orno, I think what's important is
to challenge ourselves to dig alittle deeper and challenge the
(20:03):
assumption that it's really abinary question in the first
place.
That why don't we look at whatis what are all the conditions?
What are the intentions behindit?
What are the competing factorsthat have created this?
I mean, anybody who does work innegotiations will tell you that
when you go for zero sum, that'snever going to work.
(20:23):
And it's also to Chris Voss andmany of the other uh negotiator,
negotiation masters points, it'snot about splitting the
difference.
That doesn't help necessarily.
And so looking at how much canyou back out, and NLP would
refer to it as chunk up, orother things to figure out what
(20:44):
are some of the truths involvedthat we can all agree on?
What are the fundamentals thatwe all want?
If if finance is arguing withdevelopment on budgets and
whatnot, is it that both, youknow, does one side have to win?
Okay, way up at the top, what dowe both want?
We both want the company to besuccessful.
(21:04):
We both want to have a peacefulwork environment.
We both want to be acknowledgedfor the good intentions of the
arguments that we're making andwhat we're trying to achieve.
Okay, there's there's so manyways.
I of course I'm generalizing atvery s basic levels to start,
but sometimes you do have to goup that far to begin to find
common ground and then back out.
(21:24):
And that goes for any politicalsituation, that goes for any
sort of work situation, thatgoes for any family situation.
People are people, no matter howmuch we'd like to think
otherwise.
SPEAKER_02 (21:36):
I like your thinking.
SPEAKER_04 (21:38):
It's the binary, and so one of the challenges, I just
got off a call uh with a newclient about maybe an hour ago,
and that was one of the firstthings that we did, because she
was having one of thesechallenges as far as reconciling
the strong and the nice.
And she asked uh she made acouple of points, and I said,
Well, number one, we need to goback.
And did you hear in just thelast 30 seconds worth I heard
(22:01):
three binary absolutes all ofthis, never that, everyone X.
Is that true?
Because when we use when we andshe didn't even realize she'd
said it.
And she was just, you know,making generalizations, but at
the same time, that shows amindset.
(22:21):
And those are the kinds ofthings that other people trigger
or get triggered by, I shouldsay.
And so they will totally ignorethe underlying premise of what
you're discussing and argue thevalidity of the absolute.
Is it really always, I don'talways, you're not always, we
don't never, we'll some and it'sthat's it's not about whether
(22:43):
it's truly all or never theissue that we want to focus on.
But now they're gonna argue thesemantics of the adverb.
So being mindful of those kindsof habits that we have and where
we end up tanking our ownefforts because we don't realize
that we've used some of thosepatterns unconsciously.
Boy, it's amazing.
(23:04):
Small details can make a hugedifference in your effectiveness
as a leader and otherwise, forthat matter, to me, it's all
about the finesse of thelanguage, and that's where you
thread the needle.
SPEAKER_02 (23:15):
Yes.
Is that what you did thismorning on the call?
Yes.
Because because we find thatit's just sometimes a gentle
mirroring back, like, whoa, Iheard you say that.
Yes.
Or I'm I was noticing this.
And then they they're making theown their own connections as
they go.
Yeah, okay.
And was there an aha or was uheven just Oh sure.
SPEAKER_04 (23:36):
As soon as I pointed that out, she went, Oh my gosh,
I really did.
And realized where she will tendto do that with her people, and
okay, this is going to besomething we're gonna work on.
How to be mindful and framingthings, either omit the adverb
or any adverb of time andfrequency, whatever, completely,
just address the thing, oracknowledge, you know, this is
(23:57):
something that often happens.
Or I've seen this uh three timesin the last week from you be as
concrete and specific in yourexamples as possible.
But just be careful not to allowgeneralization to turn into
hyperbole or stereotype.
Because that's where you'regonna learn, lose people.
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00 (24:14):
So many of these communication patterns that
you're speaking of, it seems tous that it that can be
complicated by the virtual rolethat we're playing as as
leaders.
Because we're now we're not youknow present with people in the
same room.
How have you found leading in avirtual world either more
(24:35):
cumbersome or what challenges isthat adding to a leader's
effectiveness?
SPEAKER_04 (24:41):
I think one of the biggest challenges for leaders
in the virtual space is one ofengagement.
It's hard enough to readpeople's thoughts and minds if
they're not proactivelyexplicitly articulating their
thoughts in person.
But when they're in the virtualspace, often people speak even
less, or somebody else willdominate at that point, allowing
(25:03):
other people to speak less.
There are uh I I there are teamsthat I work with where their
default is no cameras ever.
unknown (25:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (25:12):
Well, okay, I get that.
And the excuses I hear are we'rewe're tech.
Nobody wants to have cameras on.
Nobody ever has cameras on.
And if you could try it, butyou'd have to force them and
then they'd mutiny, and thenwe'd have this whole problem.
Okay, well what is theunderstanding of why?
And where are people going withthis?
And then we have to have allsorts of other conversations
about long-term culture,branding, where do they want
(25:33):
their careers to go, uh, etcetera?
So but how do you engage ifyou're trying to talk to a group
and you don't even know ifanybody's there?
They will all admit that whenyou're talking to a room full to
a whole screen full of blacksquares just with names in the
corner, what's the one thingthat's going through your head?
And they will all immediatelysay, Is anybody there?
SPEAKER_03 (25:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (25:54):
Is anybody listening?
SPEAKER_03 (25:55):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (25:56):
Well, what does that say?
What what do you expect to comeout of that?
So the people will rise to theexpectations that we set for
them.
And that's even more importantin the virtual world.
That's interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (26:08):
Because I'm old enough to remember conference
calls, you know, and maybe beingat a table with six leaders and
someone saying something on theconference call and someone's
rolling their eyes, but also butsaying a really politically
appropriate response to whateverhappened, even though they just
rolled their eyes.
So I'm wondering, from yourperspective, how has the Zoom or
(26:31):
the video conferencing changedsome of the virtual connection?
Because it's that not there andthey don't use it, and then
people aren't taking it.
SPEAKER_04 (26:41):
Like anything else, video conferencing is a tool and
it can be used effectively andit can be used ineffectively,
uh, assuming it's used at all.
And I mean hybrid situations arecomplicated.
I just got off um a call justyesterday or the day before with
someone who was complaining thatthe these two partners were
(27:03):
often the ones videoconferencing in to board
meetings that were in person.
And so they were expected toparticipate, you know, when the
time call came.
But half the time the boardmembers were just like mumbling
to each other, having these sideconversations, and nobody was
speaking loud enough for them tohear while their faces are
plastered on this giant screenfor everybody else to see, every
(27:26):
eyebrow flinch, every nostrilflare.
But they just saw a screen witha bunch of black dots around a
table.
And they weren't really beingincluded.
And this is where leadershipcomes in, because I think when
you're leading a virtualmeeting, especially a hybrid
meeting, it is absolutelyincumbent upon you to ensure
that everyone is included inevery aspect of the
(27:49):
conversation.
So you need to be conscious on akind of a metacognitive level
and say, gee, you know, Bob,Jane, can you two hear the
conversation?
Can you hear?
And if they say no, then keeptelling, okay, Marsha and
Harvey, you two need to, ifyou're gonna have this
conversation, great, but pleasespeak up so we can include
everybody in it.
And if not, then hey, Marsha andHarvey, I know this is the board
(28:10):
meeting and not seventh grade,but could you just stop acting
like it's seventh grade andhaving the side conversation and
include everybody in the room?
This is part of the challenge.
I would do it a little morediplomatically than I just
suggested, uh tongue in cheek,as it were, but it is a explicit
conversation, explicitinstruction guidelines,
(28:31):
expectations, acknowledging whensomeone is or isn't meeting
those expectations and gettingthem to adjust as necessary.
That's all part of leadership inthe virtual world, and the
standards need to be held higherfor the results to be just as
good as in the personal space,because otherwise the technology
will sabotage us, and mostpeople are sinking to a level of
(28:53):
unchallenged mediocrity.
SPEAKER_01 (28:56):
Most people are sinking to a level of
unchallenged mediocrity.
Wow.
That should be on a t-shirt.
SPEAKER_04 (29:06):
I sink to a level of unchallenged mediocrity.
Proud of unchallenged mediocreand proud of it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:11):
That's good.
Laura, it's funny you ended withthat phrase because I was gonna
ask you if you have an exampleof this being done well, of
virtual leadership being donewell.
SPEAKER_04 (29:24):
Um yes.
I mean, to the extent that whenwhen uh COVID was in its heyday,
let's put it that way, andeverybody was now officially on
camera all the time, stillfreaking out, hair on fire, and
doing it really, really badly.
There was a chief strategyofficer that I worked with at a
healthcare system.
And uh he, to him, it wasimportant that his team learn
(29:49):
how to do this well because theyhad a lot of influence that they
needed to get a lot of buy-inacross a lot of different
verticals through this uh wholehealthcare system.
So we did some intensivetraining, worked with the team
as a group, and then someongoing coaching to make sure
that they were able to reallynot just command the room in
person, but command the screenin the virtual space so that
(30:12):
they were still projecting theauthority, getting the buy-in,
making sure they were connectingwith the audience as necessary.
And um, when we finished, thethere was a big board meeting
that they were preparing for,and he called me after it was
done.
And he said, Yeah, we got someinteresting fruit feedback from
so and so.
I said, Oh, yes, what was that?
He goes, Yeah.
He said, Why don't your peoplesuck at this?
SPEAKER_02 (30:35):
Oh.
Thank you.
Is that what a compliment?
SPEAKER_04 (30:39):
Yes, exactly.
You know, it's like, well, whatdid you do?
What happened?
Because they all and many ofthem were not particularly
high-ranking on a relative levelto the board, but they were
brought in to do their job.
And they they mastered what Icall the three C's, and that's
all throughout my book andeverything I've done since the
ability to command the room, orin this case the screen, to
(31:01):
connect with the audience and toclose the deal, and they nailed
it.
They was managing up at its verybest.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (31:08):
I love that.
Um we do so much that's onlineand and virtual, and still one
of our goals is to create anemotional connection with
someone in a virtual way.
So, Laura, how is it that peopleare creating meaningful
connections while leading in avirtual environment?
SPEAKER_04 (31:27):
The the beauty, Brian, is that I think we tend
to overthink this a lot andimagine that it's much harder
than it is.
And often it's small detailsthat we can do that make another
big difference in that.
One of which, frankly, is thequality of your microphone.
I think all of us are on thesimilar level.
Looks like a sure SM7B, which isyou know a nice Lamborghini of a
(31:50):
microphone.
But you there's a little plugfor sure I should get royalties
for recommending it.
But the the quality of yourmicrophone, you don't need a
Lamborghini like we're using,but you shouldn't be on a
tricycle either.
And most laptop, most peoplejust use whatever's embedded in
their laptop where they usetheir earbuds or even AirPods
(32:10):
for that matter.
And for as expensive as theyare, the microphone is lousy.
So do not go in that direction.
But to upgrade, you know,$100,$150 for a decent mic makes a
huge difference becauseotherwise you sound like this.
SPEAKER_01 (32:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (32:25):
And most people And this is a cognitive, I mean,
Brian, you should be able toeven talk to this more than I
can.
But when when the sound is hardto parse through and it's like
you're looking through fog, itcreates a level of a cognitive
processing burden for thelistener.
And let's face it, people'sattention span is pretty
(32:47):
abysmal, abysmally shortnowadays.
Well, and they barely payattention if they are interested
in what you're saying.
But if you're going to make themwork, first and foremost, to
just understand what the wordswere, much less to understand,
do I understand what they mean?
Do I agree with them?
How do I want to respond tothem?
They're going to go, ugh, Ican't be bothered, and they're
(33:07):
going to go multitask, which is,I believe, the new definition of
multitasking is paying attentionto everything except you.
SPEAKER_03 (33:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (33:15):
So how do we get them to stay focused?
And the you don't want to be theperson where when everybody else
sounds like this and then youtalk and you sound like this.
And you sound like CharlieBrown's teacher, everyone
immediately goes, Oh, I don'twant to listen to that.
And they tune out.
You want to be on the flip sidewhere most people, again,
hitting that unchallenged levelof mediocrity, most people sound
like this, and then you cutthrough the fog.
(33:37):
And it's like, wow.
I did a a virtual training forthe um executive leadership team
of a client company a littlewhile ago.
And they had already been on avirtual meeting for maybe two
hours before I got on.
So they were a little zoomedout, as it were.
And the person introduces me,explains what the training was
(33:59):
we were going to do virtually.
And I got through about 30seconds of introduction opening
and before one of the VPs uminterrupts and goes, Wait, wait,
Laura, what are you doing?
I said, I'm I'm sorry, what?
What do you mean?
And he said, What are you doing?
What are you doing with yourvoice?
I don't know what you're doing,but all of a sudden you started
to talk, and I just sat up and Izoomed, focused in, and I
(34:23):
realized I was hanging oneverything that you said.
What are you doing with yourvoice?
And are you going to teach ushow to do that?
Yeah.
And I thought, it's actuallyboth.
Yes, it is part of how I'mspeaking and the way that I'm
doing it, as opposed to thelaundry list, and now I'm going
to read off the ingredients onthe back of my shampoo bottle.
(34:43):
Uh like how most people seem togo through their talking points
of a meeting.
Correct.
Correct.
But at the same time, yes, mymicrophone is laser clear and
nobody else's was.
And it did help.
It's like a jolt of energy thatcame through their systems.
Uh, so it's a both and.
(35:04):
You can't just have one and notthe other if you want to
maximize your impact.
SPEAKER_01 (35:08):
Well, it's interesting you start talking
about microphones because at theend of the book, you have some
very specific recommendationsfor how to hold a microphone,
where to put the lav pack, likewhat kind of clothes to wear.
I'm wondering if you have anyspecific tips you could leave
our audience with about, youknow, like a takeaway from your
book.
Like, yes, commanding themicrophone like is a skill.
(35:30):
What are like the softer skills?
Or like if there's one thingthat you could leave us with
that would help some kind of onthat journey to mastering their
leadership voice, what wouldthat be?
I know it's hard to summarize itall, but okay, how to narrow
that down.
I know, right?
SPEAKER_04 (35:48):
What's I'd be curious to know what's the
biggest hang-up you tend to hearfrom your clients?
Any of you?
SPEAKER_00 (35:56):
Ooh.
Okay, I'm gonna go first andjust pave the way.
A fear to authentically speaktheir perspective.
Like this is what I see, likeauthentically for someone to say
that out loud.
Um, because I feel that peopleare actually asking for that
because when someone speaks intheir voice, it tends to be that
(36:19):
penetrating truth that creates aspace for others to hear.
SPEAKER_02 (36:25):
I would also say that what we're hearing now is
that when people are trying tolead or direct or manage a
group, they are competing withphones.
They're competing with mobiledevices.
And so even the sit-up and like,what did you do there?
Sit up and talk, like whathappened.
(36:49):
People are looking for thatquick fix.
And I just wonder if it's likerooting into their authenticity.
So that's another thing that wewe are hearing and seeing.
SPEAKER_01 (36:59):
I'm hearing and seeing from people, just a fear
of public speaking.
And I have air quotes because II think in your book or
somewhere I heard you say publicspeaking is anytime you're
speaking to someone or two oranyone other than yourself.
Right.
Right.
And so sometimes there's justthat fear of like I clam up, I
get nervous.
Uh some of you know, I thinkthat's just practice getting
over that, but just tellingsomeone, you know, picture
(37:21):
everyone in your underwear, thatdoesn't necessarily help help
ease that.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (37:28):
Yeah.
Um would love to address um allof these, frankly.
It's like a whole separatepodcast.
Whatever's interesting.
Yeah, right.
I guess two things.
Maybe three.
And you can delete the ones thatyou don't that are less
interesting.
(37:49):
Um as far as the fear of publicspeaking is concerned, it's not
technically a fear of publicspeaking.
It's a fear of public judgment.
SPEAKER_03 (37:59):
Oh.
SPEAKER_04 (37:59):
It's a fear of public scrutiny.
It's a fear of being shot downin public, which is why people
are then afraid to share theirgenuine thoughts and feelings,
whether it is one-on-one orone-to-many, virtual or in
person, on the stage or oncamera or you know, whatever the
(38:21):
situation is.
There's an old expression that Ithink too many people have have
latched onto, which is better tokeep your mouth shut and let
people think you a fool than toopen your mouth and remove all
doubt.
SPEAKER_03 (38:33):
Yep.
SPEAKER_04 (38:34):
Which is a very you know old-fashioned expression.
But that doesn't help as aleader.
Yeah, because to lead, peopleneed to know what and who they
are leading.
If they don't know what youstand for, why would they get
behind you?
Did you ever see the showHamilton?
SPEAKER_01 (38:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (38:53):
You know, great show.
And uh there's a line that AaronBurr has it multiple times.
It's about you know, smile orwhat is it, talk less, smile
for, don't let them know whatyou're against or what you're
for, something along thoselines.
And but that's why Hamilton atthe end cast his vote in favor
(39:13):
of Jefferson, saying, No, Ican't, I don't know what you
stand for.
So why would I follow you?
I don't trust you as a leader oras an individual for that
matter.
So we need to be able to takesome calculated risks and share
our perspective.
If you want you can't get a yesif you don't ask the question in
(39:37):
the first place.
Oh as far as the things likecompeting with phones, competing
for attention, competing forrespect, competing for uh for
yeses, et cetera, this goes backto that same challenge where you
have to ask or you can't get theyes.
(39:58):
And that also means you have togive people expectations.
You have to ask them, you knowwhat, tomorrow, maybe not in
five minutes, like, hey, it'sgreat that you all joined here
today, turn your cameras on now.
Because okay, maybe they didn'tshave, they didn't, you know,
they are still in their pajamas,who knows what's going on if
that's the expectation thatcameras are never on.
But I can say to you tomorrow,when we join this meeting, I
(40:19):
need the cameras to be on forthe first 15 minutes.
So that expectation, and you mayneed to talk them through it or
deal with other things, but ifyou just assume that they won't
like it, so you don't ask, thenthe tail is wagging the dog.
And you're getting exactly whatyou are asking for, which is
nothing.
SPEAKER_01 (40:39):
That's good.
That's good.
SPEAKER_04 (40:41):
They are rising to the standard that you set.
SPEAKER_00 (40:43):
The second part of that t-shirt.
Laura, this has been phenomenal.
I feel that there are just somany different trails that this
can lead to.
Um because so much of what somuch of what you're talking
about is the lived experience ofmany of the leaders that we are
currently working with.
SPEAKER_03 (41:04):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (41:04):
The current struggles that most people don't
know they're in the struggle.
They feel something's off, butthey really don't have the words
yet to articulate it.
So what I like about ourconversation today is the way
that you are giving us somelanguage and some examples of
how to really understand what'sgoing on, whether we are
(41:25):
conscious of it or not.
So that leaders can pay moreattention and be more aware of
how they're being perceived andhow they can really lead others
in a way that brings life toeverybody.
SPEAKER_03 (41:37):
That's great.
SPEAKER_01 (41:38):
Thank you so much.
It's uh you know, all the prep Idid, other podcasts, TED Talk
and stuff, and and even yourbook, just like the consistency
of message and the authenticitythat I sense throughout that in
the now here today.
I just I really appreciate that.
And so thank you for uh givingus your time and sharing your
wisdom with us.
SPEAKER_04 (41:56):
Thank you for the opportunity.
I've that the conversations havebeen great.
I love being able to talk tosomeone who's in the space as
well, as opposed to whateverother angles that my work might
be relevant, but you know, it'sit's a little bit different.
SPEAKER_01 (42:17):
Thank you for listening to the Leadership
Vision Podcast, our show helpingyou build positive team culture.
If you found value from thisepisode or any of our other
materials, we'd appreciate it ifyou could join a free email
newsletter.
Uh, subscribe and follow us onYouTube, on Spotify, on Apple
Podcasts, wherever you get anyof those things, leave us a
(42:37):
review.
Also, another big thank you toDr.
Laura Sakola for taking the timeto chat with us.
It was very interesting and sucha great conversation.
I loved hearing not only herexamples, but just the interplay
between Brian, Linda, and Lauraand just how our work seemed to
be so complimentary.
So thank you for listening.
My name is Nathan Freeberg onbehalf of our entire team.
(43:00):
Thanks for listening.
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