August 11, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode of the Leadership Vision Podcast, we dive deep into Chapter 2 of Unfolded: Lessons in Transformation from an Origami Crane and explore how the concept of “play” applies to team development.
Joined by authors Dr. Linda and Brian Schubring, we explore how “play” isn’t just about fun and games—it’s about intentional practice that unlocks trust, creativity, and deeper collaboration. When teams are given safe environments to experiment without pressure, they surface hidden talents, build psychological safety, and reimagine how they relate to one another.
This is the second part of our conversation on play. If you missed the first episode, we recommend going back and listening to the individual-focused exploration of play.
🔊 Key Quotes
“The importance of play is to give the characters of our life a different context to be who they are.” – Brian Schubring
“Sometimes play is conflict avoidant.” – Dr. Linda Schubring
“When teams are given the permission to play for the first time, they’re not going to know what to do… but leaders can gain so much by just watching.” – Brian Schubring
“Play is intentional to the team, to the mindset of people, and to the culture.” – Brian Schubring
Linda and Brian offer five action steps for introducing intentional play into your team:
- Create a Playground – Designate spaces or time to experiment without consequence.
- Celebrate Learning and Unlearning – Honor what’s gained and what’s released.
- Play with Strengths – Engage people in ways that both highlight and stretch their natural talents.
- Schedule Time to Leap – Create moments where risk and growth go hand in hand.
- Ask Often – Reflect regularly with your team: Are we playing? Are we progressing?
🎯 Reflection Questions for Leaders
- What kind of play exists on your team today, if any?
- Do you have a comfort culture, a complacent culture, or a competitive culture?
- Where can you create intentional moments of low-pressure experimentation?
- Are there unhelpful patterns your team needs to unlearn?
📚 Resources & Links
- 🎧 Listen to Part 1: Play for Individuals
- 📘 Get the book: Unfolded: Lessons in Transformation from an Origami Crane
🎉 Unfolded is a National Bestseller!
#1 in Business & #5 Overall on USA Today
#17 on Publisher’s Weekly Nonfiction
📘 Grab your copy + get the FREE Reflection Guide!
-
Read the full blog post here!
CONTACT US
- email: connect@leadershipvisionconsulting.com
- Leadership Vision Online
ABOUT
The Leadership Vision Podcast is a weekly show sharing our expertise in discovering, practicing, and implementing a Strengths-based approach to people, teams, and culture. Contact us to talk to us about helping your team understand the power of Strengths.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The importance of play is to give the characters
of our life a different context,to be who they are, because
sometimes I believe thatstereotype creates a character
of context oh, that person's afox.
What play does?
What play does is it gives ateam a chance to erase the
(00:23):
characterizations that they haveof other people, because the
topic is new.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
And part of that came through our play with other
clients, and so when we wouldgive space for people to partner
up and have a conversationabout something, we usually
found that they were able to gofurther in the conversation and
the reflection than we couldeven teach them about.
Sometimes we're saying lightenup a little bit.
(00:49):
What can we achieve if we justengage with this practice in
disguise and then make itapplicable to the next hard
thing that we have to do?
Speaker 3 (01:02):
You are listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast,
our show helping you buildpositive team culture.
Our consulting firm has beendoing this work for the past 25
years so that leaders arementally engaged and emotionally
healthy.
To learn more about our work,you can click the link in the
show notes or visit us on theweb at
leadershipvisionconsultingcom.
Hello everyone, my name isNathan Friberg and today on the
(01:23):
podcast, I have a question foryou what does it mean for a team
to play?
In today's conversation with DrLinda Schubring and Brian
Schubring, we're going to berethinking play, not as a break
from work, but as essential toit.
Inspired by Chapter 2 ofUnfolded Lessons in
Transformation from an origamicrane, we'll explore how teams
(01:44):
can use play to build trust,practice new behaviors and move
closer to their shared dreams.
We'll unpack how intentionalplaygrounds and organizations
help teams find their voice,learn through failure and
innovate safely, while alsoexploring the risks of staying
too comfortable for too long.
This is part two in ourdiscussion on play.
(02:05):
If you missed the first one,you can go back and listen to it
, but let's jump in and talkabout play.
Brian and Linda, welcome backto the Leadership Vision podcast
.
It feels like just moments agowe were recording the first part
of this two-part little miniseries on play.
Could one of you just reallybriefly, in like 30 seconds,
recap what we talked about maybe?
(02:26):
Quickly define play, quicklydefine playgrounds, and then
we'll jump into applying thisidea for teams and organizations
.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Play is practice in disguise.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
And what that means is giving people the opportunity
to practice various skills andtest some of their capacities
towards a specific objective,but keeping it fun and
lighthearted, somewhatinvitational, where the pressure
is low but the practice and theplay are intentional.
Great, great great.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
So we're going to be applying this idea to teams, to
organizations, to business.
My first question or what Imight be thinking of, leaders is
how do we?
We got work to do, we got a.
Or what I might be thinking ofleaders is we got work to do.
We got a bottom line, we gotdeadlines.
How do we create play?
We're not Google.
We can't just give people 20hours a week to go build their
own little pet projects.
(03:17):
How do you even begin toimplement this idea of play in a
business?
Speaker 1 (03:22):
I think, philosophically, there is maybe
a mind shift that needs tohappen within the leaders, first
and foremost because sometimesthe leaders that we're working
with misunderstand theimportance of play and what it
means for the brain to reallyplay in a professional setting,
and by that I mean giving peoplethe opportunity to try new
(03:45):
things, to think creatively, tohave innovative conversations,
to just press pause for a secondon the looming pressures and
deadlines that we're all tryingto meet, because, yes, that's a
reality.
But how do we put people in amuch more relaxed place where
they're not afraid to trysomething new, they're not
afraid of being shamed or blamed.
No one's going to criticize orjudge others for not having a
(04:09):
super great idea or tryingsomething over and over again.
Because when we play, we're notonly learning about our own
skills and capacities, we'realso learning about the skills
and capacities of other people.
We're learning about the typesof relationships we share with
each other and how we can trustpeople when the pressure is high
.
And if a leader understands theimportance of creating places
(04:32):
where play is permitted, thatleader can gain so much
information on their people,where the clicks are, where the
dynamic relationships are justby watching people play.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
So, brian, my first, or my follow-up then, is do you
have examples of that, like withthe clients that we've worked
with?
Like, because I think ourlisteners are most curious like
how, how, how, it's still how.
Yes, I can you shift my mind?
Great, but how do I do that?
Give us some examples.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I have some multiple come to mind, the one that is
the most clear we're workingwith a CEO, and this did not
happen right away, mind you.
This happened over a period ofmany, many, many months.
But where the team arrived wasutilizing this metaphor of we're
practicing now, and by practice, it meant we're on the practice
(05:22):
field, we're not in the stadium.
By practice, it means we'rewearing our practice jersey,
we're not in the stadium.
By practice, it means we'rewearing our practice jersey.
We're expected to get moredirty, we're expected to not be
fundamentally at our best.
But this idea of we're justgoing to practice right now and
they could spend 60 or 90minutes just practicing,
practicing new ideas, what aboutthis strategy?
Asking people for theiropinions and just this mindset
(05:46):
of we're practicing, we're noton the field of play yet gives
people the chance to quote playalongside one another in a way
that they may not be doing ifthe pressure was super high, and
just that metaphor releases thepressure, sure.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And sometimes it's.
It's the unstructured 90minutes that someone plays
together, right so?
Or the the unstructured time.
There was a group that weworked with maybe 10 years ago
now, and one of the things thatthey realized is that they
weren't office near each other.
These teammates were dispersed,and they were, they were, and
(06:24):
their schedules were so filledwith meetings that they had no
time to just interact, and sothey basically did study hall
once a month and they were inthe same room still doing the
work, but then could look up andsay, hey, have you ever thought
about this?
Or we should get a couple ofpeople down here to talk about
that.
And there was a practice of whatwould it look like if we just
(06:46):
worked closer?
And where can some of thatinnovative breakthrough come
together?
The key to it is that it'sunstructured and maybe there's
some broad goals.
Or the purpose of this time isto, like I said, or like Brian
said, practice.
The purpose of this time is toget to know each other so that
(07:07):
when we have to do the reallyhard things, that there's a
relational understanding,similar to you don't send kids
off to a playground and say,first you have to go down the
slide and once you've done, thatthree times then you have to do
the monkey bar, then you haveto do this, and then you have to
do that.
You've killed the spirit of whatit means to just run at a
playground and enjoy it.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
And that's the invitation that we are asking
leaders to consider is toconsider gathering your team
together, giving them anopportunity to work on something
within the parameters ofwhatever the expectations are,
and just let them go somethingwithin the parameters of
whatever the expectations areand just let them go
(07:51):
Intentionally, not givingguidelines, intentionally not
giving high expectations, andjust watching.
Now, yes, it is going to take adifferent kind of attention on
the leader's behalf of watchinghow people work together, what
they're focusing on, whatquestions they're asking.
Just to pay attention to that,because I also know this.
When teams are given thepermission to play for the first
time, they're not going to knowwhat to do, because most often,
(08:15):
we expect teams to show up acertain way, to do their duties
a specific way and to bemeasured in a specific way.
Play is almost the opposite.
It's just inviting people toshow up and have at it.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
I mentioned Google earlier because I think there's
been a lot written about theirculture around.
I don't know if they'd call itplay, but like psychological
safety really came up as kind oflike there's no bad ideas.
You bring out ideas, it's adumb or it doesn't kind of work
Like that's okay, just keep themgoing.
And I'm curious, if there's ain business, if you would
(08:50):
encourage leaders to createspecific playgrounds like in the
book that are sort of set offto the side where you can do
whatever you want.
There's not real ramifications.
Or can you sort of build someof these ideas of play into
everyday meetings and stuff,like what I think Google did?
Is it one or the other?
Is it both?
Is it what's been mosteffective in just in terms of
(09:13):
getting leaders to loosen up toplay?
Because there's the offsitewhere you're just doing goofy
stuff and you get to know eachother.
But then how do you make playjust a part of every day?
How do you make?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
play just a part of every day.
I think you're onto somethingwith the making play a part of
every day and it's not a part ofeverything.
And so it's not just stop beingserious.
Everybody, lighten up.
Exactly, it is more of how doyou get people to not, once
(09:43):
again, to not take themselves soseriously that they can step in
, loosen their tie a little bit?
Do even people wear ties?
I haven't seen a client wear atie in a long time.
But when I think of the momentswhen people really are playing,
there's also a time that we'veheard when we talk to teams is
that they experience play inservice projects.
So there's an organization wework with.
(10:06):
Once a quarter they do aservice project and they
purposely make it fun.
So it's not.
I think there's this sense thator some place we learned or
were socialized that work has tobe so serious.
And, yes, there are times totake the things that we're
working on very seriously, andthen there's times to not take
ourselves so serious.
And, yes, there are times totake the things that we're
working on very seriously, andthen there's times to not take
(10:28):
ourselves so seriously.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
But this intentionality of play takes
many different forms.
There are some forms where playis intentionally aligned around
some type of purposeful goalthat you're trying to achieve.
There are other contexts whereplay could be just topical,
where you're gathering your teamtogether just like throw ideas
around about some type of topicthat is relevant but not
(10:51):
necessary, maybe to the bottomline or by due on Friday.
There is other intentional playthat comes around this idea of
culture building.
What are the things that you'redoing as an organization that
are playful, that align're doingas an organization, that are
playful, that align more withsome of the rituals and routines
, that you do as an organizationthat creates a place where
(11:13):
people can gather together, play, whether it's on a theme or a
celebration, or even bringing aspecific type of food for
everyone to share.
That's playful.
And so I think one of theimportant things to think about
as a culture is that play isintentional to teams, play is
intentional to the mindset ofpeople and play is intentional
(11:36):
within a larger culture, Becauseif you establish this idea of
play on multiple levels andyou're consistent with it, then
people won't be surprised whenyou ask them to actually play
without specific parameters.
We have a client that we workwith and they are very
intentional on how they'rebuilding their cultural
(11:59):
community through this idea ofplayful events that they do,
whether it's events that mayhappen through a sports season
or events like a barbecuecompetition that they have.
These are playful ways thatpeople are engaged with each
other, that are not about thejob but are about building
(12:22):
relationships with each other.
My point is, play can have acultural application as much as
it can have a team application.
My question to our listeners iswhich is more appropriate to
your organization?
And I would maybe bet thatthere's more likelihood for
teams to embrace play first thanfor larger cultures.
(12:46):
But the point is, let's invitepeople to come together,
eliminate some of therestrictions and rules of
engagement and allow people torelate and to problem solve and
to reflect and to ideate ontheir own intention in a playful
and nonjudgmental way.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
So what I hear you saying, then, is play is both
about building your team cultureand about doing the work of
your business, like it's notjust oh, we're going to get
together and play so that welike each other more, but
there's I mean that's great, butthere's also an element of like
you can be creative problemsolvers.
You can get unstuck, maybe, bythis idea of play.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Yeah, nathan, there's something about that.
We like each other, or wholiked each other, that's that's
true.
And what's also fundamentallytrue is who doesn't.
Uh, because part of theexperience of play is for people
to understand who they trustand who they relate to comma, no
judgment and the purpose ofplay is for you to also better
(13:48):
understand those individualsthat you may not get along with
or not really have the sameperspective on life.
That's just as important withinthe relationship building
construct of what happens whenyou play.
We all have people in our lifethat we don't play well with,
and that's okay for a variety ofreasons, because sometimes
(14:08):
those are the otherrelationships that are not
necessarily about the conflict,but how it is that we respond
when we're faced with tension orsomething that is getting in
our way or some type of specificchallenge.
It's more about us than it isabout the disagreement in the
relationship.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
I want to maybe transition to the second part
here, because in the lastepisode we were talking about
play as the individual.
In a playground, there's anexit.
There's this idea of being toosafe, being too complacent.
I got the playground, I cancrush the monkey bars, I can go
up and down the slide, noproblem.
What does that look like for ateam to be stuck?
(14:53):
Or maybe I'll ask it is there adanger of playing too much?
Is there a danger of being, Idon't know?
Analysis, paralysis comes tomind, like what is that concept
look like as it relates to ateam?
What does that concept look?
Speaker 2 (15:04):
like as it relates to a team.
Sometimes play is conflictavoidant, like practicing this
conflict avoidance, and we haveseen the teams that are so
lighthearted that it seems likeis anyone serious about anything
, or are you trying to movetogether in in the in the same
(15:26):
way.
And so when we think about play, it's not just getting stuck,
it's making sure you're makingforward progression, forward
movement, that there is somemeasure of sort where you can
say, yep, we're, we're.
Now to this point this, this isgood.
Like and this is good enough,and now we've learned enough
(15:46):
that we can step into the nextarena.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
There's a great Simon Sinek book when he talks about.
It's called the Infinite Gameand he talks about how Kodak got
so safe that they essentiallyrefused to innovate and they
owned all the patents on digitalcameras but just kind of
refused to go into that andthey're not a company anymore or
whatever.
And so I think that there'ssome some real truth to the
(16:12):
dangers of just playing it toosafe and not being willing to,
like you said, get out of thatplayground and move to that next
thing.
Brian, I think you were goingto say something.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Oh, you're tapping into something here.
Playing it too safe is atwo-sided coin.
Playing it too safe can be thefun-loving comfort culture where
everyone's having a great time.
There's not a whole lot ofchallenge happening there, but
man, are we having fun?
The other side of that coin iscomplacent play, where you have
(16:45):
a complacent culture, where thebully at the top of the slide is
allowed to be the bully at thetop of the slide, inhibiting
anybody else from really playing, and that one person controls
the whole thing.
Therein lies a unique challenge, because that complacency
culture is not only freezing thebully at the top of the slide
(17:05):
but freezing the growth anddevelopment of anybody else.
That's where I think we reallyhave a challenge is we are not
saying that we're promoting playto reinforce comfort culture.
We're also not reinforcing thisconcept of play with a
complacent culture, because bothof those cultures aren't
promoting the kinds of growthand development where all people
(17:27):
are benefiting, or most peopleare benefiting, and that's the
purpose of play.
I really believe that whenleaders are looking at their
teams at play and they justmaybe ask themselves do I have a
comfort culture or a complacentculture, or is it a competitive
culture?
(17:47):
And by competitive culture.
I mean a culture that is askingpeople to show up in a specific
way to engage each other, wherethere is some type of
progression relationally and ifsomething's not working we're
given permission to let that goand to try something new.
And sometimes I believe thatwhen we are in either a comfort
(18:09):
culture or a complacent culture,that those cultures place a
lens over our vision and we justsee things as okay that maybe
six months ago we would neverhave considered okay because we
were in a different place.
I think that play is really aninteresting way to look at our
team's dynamic and whether ornot we're growing as a team.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
The organizations that we're working with right
now, I wouldn't say there's notone that is experiencing a
comfort culture.
I think there's so muchhappening in the world today
that there's a lot of unknown,there's a lot of uncertainty and
there is no room to becomfortable anymore, and so it's
not that you just buckle downand you do things with more
(18:53):
intensity.
Sometimes we're saying saying,lighten up a little bit.
What can we achieve if we justengage with this practice in
disguise and then make itapplicable to the next hard
thing that we have to do?
Speaker 3 (19:08):
Are there signs or signals that a leader can look
for to know if they're toocomfortable, or to know if
they're not maybe playingintentionally towards something
Dear?
Speaker 2 (19:22):
God, yeah, like watching people quiet, quit,
watching people not engage.
Looking at some of thosemeasures where you have a bunch
of people that are just checkingboxes and not really engaged
holistically.
Some of the leaders that wework with, they are in it
physically.
There is this physicalembodiment that they come in and
(19:43):
they join in on whatever thechallenge is.
There are people that are in itwith their minds and their
hearts and their spirits and Iwould pay attention to the
places where maybe they're not Ithink it's more of it could
feel apathetic or well.
I just don't know how tomotivate them, because maybe
they're all just a littlecomfortable.
(20:05):
Push them a little harder.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I'm not sure if I'm speaking from our experience
that's Linda and I and how wework work with clients.
What I've learned is, when yougive a team a chance to play
anywhere with anything, it isclear really fast who's getting
along, who's not getting along,who wants to play, who doesn't
(20:29):
want to play.
It's almost like within 30seconds you can start to see
these teams and fiefdoms andvillains emerge from the shadows
and it just seems so obvious tous how they're playing.
But I really believe that manypeople really aren't looking for
that or they don't want to seewhat really happens.
When people are asked to playtogether and the converse is
(20:51):
also true Just giving a team achance to wrestle with some type
of issue, you can see, likewhat Linda's saying, teams jump
in right away and nine out of 10people are fully in, and so I
think that play is intentional,like we have to create times
when we, like we're saying atthe beginning of the podcast,
we're creating times and placesfor teams to be creative, and
(21:12):
it's also an invitation forobservation.
We need to spend time watchinghow people interact with each
other.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
And it's not trying to control the villain or
whoever's perceived as thevillain.
I think sometimes it's thedevil's advocate or someone that
is speaking from an outsideview that helps with the
innovative breakthrough.
And so sometimes it's notrushing the play, but, yes,
setting some ground rules, butnot rushing.
(21:40):
You know, people interactingtogether and like playing nice
right from the get go.
Yes, there's professionaldecorum, but how do you?
How do you then just kind ofwait it out, Because maybe two
people that are arguing areactually on the same side.
They're just doing it loudly,right?
Speaker 1 (21:57):
And sometimes, when you play, you have to just
accept some of the things asthey are, because we can't have
a perfect play.
We have an executive that we'reworking with.
He read the book and one of thestatements that he made was
really revelatory for me when itcomes to this idea of play.
And he said this yeah, I knowwe have our Fox and Fox is going
to be Fox.
And he said this yeah, I knowwe have our Fox and Fox is going
(22:32):
to be Fox.
When he said that, he meant wehave a person who plays that
role and really can't changethat.
But he said this.
But to focus on how the restare playing together, I think
that people are wired to try toeliminate the threat as fast as
possible.
That's what our brains think.
But in this opportunity of play, there is also the opportunity
for us to shift our perspectiveon all the things that are going
(22:55):
well and just emphasizing that,because I think we can learn a
lot from play giving permissionand then asking ourselves and
what do we carry forward?
Speaker 3 (23:04):
so, brian, linda, what I'm thinking of right now
is this, this quote that I wrotedown when I was prepping for
this, that I didn't paste thesource of it, so I don't know
where this came from, but, uh,it said, when teams are
encouraged to play throughprototyping, simulations or
reflection, they often surfacehidden talents and build deeper
trust and create new solutions.
And so, brian, when youmentioned the fox, it made me
(23:26):
think of.
Perhaps the fox is justmisunderstood In the story.
The fox is a villain.
In Unfold, the fox is kind ofthe villain character and maybe
that's how people think of thefox on their team, but it's not
a villain.
So I'm wondering how this ideaof play can help teams unlock
(23:47):
innovation, help people feelmore like they belong to the
team, have a sense of purpose,when otherwise they might just
ignore that, without this kindof proverbial playground.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
The importance of play is to give the characters
of our life a different context,to be who they are, because
sometimes I believe thatstereotype creates a character
of context oh, that person's afox.
What play does?
What play does is it gives ateam a chance to erase the
(24:26):
characterizations that they haveof other people, because the
topic is new.
Let us illustrate.
We have a client that we workwith every other month.
We are working with theirexecutives, and one have a
client that we work with Everyother month we're working with
their executives, and one of theexperiences that we do with the
executives is a 90-minutesession called Moments that
Matter, and that session is atime capsule or a time capture
(24:50):
of what is a moment that mattersright now to us as leaders.
What that does is it invitespeople to step into a moment
that matters right now and bydoing that, they're coming as
individuals and not necessarilytheir role or a reflection of
who they've been in the past.
It's kind of like it's a blankslate Everyone starts new
(25:13):
because the moment is soimportant.
And by doing that, it almost islike you're taking the
character or thecharacterization out of context
and putting them into a newconversation where we kind of
start over with our relationship.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
And we've done this work with so many other clients
that usually just needed somealignment around language, some
alignment around direction,where it's promoting a kind of
understanding of, oh, when yousay this, this is what you mean.
And these moments that mattergive freedom to a team to ask,
(25:56):
ask the stupid question, or tohave a smaller group
conversation with a partner or agroup of a group of three, and
we found that that sometimes, bygetting really smart people to
be batting around ideas a littlebit differently, create this
sense of okay, this is anotherway to look at it.
(26:17):
And, yes, fox is giving mevillain energy, but guess what?
He's also telling us that thisreally matters to us.
Wow, my internal Fox is causingme to speak right now really
passionately, and I'm realizingthat it's because this moment is
really important.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
A moments that matter .
Conversation is a topic that isnew.
It's important to the here andnow and it is truly a
conversation among equals,without any specific outcome.
We're just talking aboutsomething because it's important
and we don't know where it'sgoing to go, so as facilitators,
we have to hold the experienceloosely, but this team engages
because they know hey, now's thetime where we're having a
(27:02):
conversation, and it really is atime when relationships are
reevaluated, alliances resurfaceand people that maybe don't
talk as much or talk in adifferent way are given a chance
to say something in a new way.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
And part of that came through our play with other
clients, and so when we wouldgive space for people to partner
up and have a conversationabout something, we usually
found that they were able to gofurther in the conversation and
the reflection than we couldeven teach them about.
So what we were doing wasunearthing their best experience
(27:39):
or their best answer or causingthem to really own, you know,
either the solution orcomponents of the problem that
needed to be fixed, and so, onceagain, a lot of our work is
playing and trying new things inorder to bring about that play
(28:00):
in better ways and Moments thatMatter is one of those.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
And when we have these conversations.
What I think is reallyimportant and back to the main
metaphor of the book is thatwhen people are having these
conversations, they're actuallyresourcing their maps within.
They're resourcing their livedexperience within the
organization when they were CEOof a different company.
They're referencing the wisdomthat they've learned, other
relationships within theorganization they are map,
(28:27):
reflecting and sharing out loud.
And that is so importantbecause the conversations happen
regardless of title orinfluence or geographic reach or
how many people report to them.
It's people bringing theirwhole selves to a conversation,
and that conversation is playful.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
I remember working with one group and we had broken
them up to talk about thedifferent maps of their lives
and where they've experiencedthe kind of growth.
And so people are breaking up.
And then we see these twopeople and their partners, and
they had the laptop open.
So there's part of me that wasjudging right away and a little
(29:10):
bit disappointed, like I wishthey could just wait, just give
me 30 more minutes to facilitatethis conversation.
And then I so I just started toobserve and I realized that one
team member was showing hispartner where exactly in the
world he grew up in this place,that he went to school, because
it gave him context of oh well,then that makes a lot more sense
(29:36):
about how you show up what isimportant to you, and it was in
that kind of learning that aliteral map on a website gave
insight to a team member andpromoted a better working
relationship as a result,promoted a better working
relationship.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
As a result, we had some really good friends
visiting us this last week.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
We went to college together.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
Long-time friends, and there's something about when
you know those things about aperson that you just feel safe
with them.
You feel safe to be yourself,you feel safe to share things
that you wouldn't with otherpeople, and that kind of shared
history of maps, if you will, issuch a, I think, just a
(30:23):
profound metaphor, because youthink about new people you meet
in your life, new colleaguesthat come into your life and
you're not really sure how can Iplay with this person?
What can I joke about?
What sort of silly ideas forthis problem we have can I bring
up without it getting shot down?
And if you think about thosepeople in your life that you do
(30:43):
feel the most safe with, whicharen't necessarily your family
members, there is an ability tojust play and be so silly with
that.
Sometimes you come up with great, great stuff because of that
shared history.
And so I don't know if this isnecessarily our last question,
but is there a way that you havefound for I know you mentioned
(31:05):
the what was it called Momentsthat matter, but is there a way
to speed that process up withwith teams to better understand?
I know you've done a lot ofdifferent activities, but how do
you help team members get tothat place where they can
actually play, because I thinkif you just throw everybody in a
room, you're like, okay, play,start creating different letters
(31:28):
with your body, like it's likeI don't know any of these people
, I don't know if I can do thisyou know what I mean.
I didn't say what company thatwas from I know.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
I know.
I know One of the reasons whyleaders hire us to work with
(31:57):
their teams and theirorganizations is that they know
that the space that Brian and Icreate between us creates spaces
for people to grow and get toknow themselves in a different
way, and when I think about someof the activities that we do or
the questions that we ask, alot of times we are seeking to
get to know the differentcharacteristics of each team
member.
So as we get to know people,then we can say, oh, that's
similar to you and we're drawingconnections between people,
(32:22):
between people and that spacethat we created for them to grow
.
Eventually we fade to thebackground because they've
learned to play in the safetythat Brian and I have created,
and so I think there issomething to be said about the
way that you can accelerate aninvestment that doesn't happen
with just inside people thatcome in and lead a different
training and get you talking.
Yes, some of those things canbe helpful, but sometimes an
(32:43):
outside person can give the kindof insight and parameters and
permission to let people be morefree to try new things, to
express something that maybethey've felt confined by, and
practice new behaviors thatdemonstrate that they are
growing as a leader and as ateam member.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
So I have some action steps here that I want your
feedback on, and we don't needto talk a lot about this.
There's five.
So, leaders, listening, this iswhat you need to go, do, uh,
create a playground, celebratefailure, play with strengths,
schedule time to leap and askoften, ask often is you know?
(33:30):
Are we still playing?
Are we making progress?
What do you think about thoseaction steps?
Does that seem like?
Obviously this isn't like a dothis and then this happens type
of a thing, but I think numbertwo celebrate lessons learned
and celebrate lessons unlearned.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Oh, say that again.
Celebrate learning andunlearning.
Okay, yeah, because sometimeswe, they can unlearn patterns
(34:08):
and ways of doing things thatare no longer working.
Things go isn't as easy as itsounds because we there's an
unlearning of the ways that wethink and unlearning of the ways
that we relate to each otherways of unlearning
characterizations of otherpeople, and that's part of play
(34:29):
we're playing away old patternsand playing in to new patterns.
I like that that's really good.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
I like that and nathan, I think it's like
running slower doesn't make youfaster maybe it does, it does
actually, if you have good form,it does actually running slower
.
You have to be slower on yournon-workout days, so it does
yeah, and false advertising thatthese shoes can be run a four
(34:58):
minute mile anyway.
Anyway, what were were going tosay something on topic?
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Yes, I well, Nathan, I love these action steps, but
if you're like me, at by thetime I got to number three, I'm
like oh I'm, I've lost, I'velost, forget it, I'll, I'll try
something else, we'll just do aservice project instead.
And so I would say look at theseaction steps, look in the show
notes or wherever you put them,nathan, and begin to wonder, as
(35:22):
a leader, which one you want toincorporate this week or in the
next two weeks.
Or maybe it's getting one ofyour team members together and
you say I want to practice thisstep in practicing a different
way of doing something.
Can you help me craft anopening to a meeting?
(35:43):
Or can we do something thatlooks a lot different, that
creates this sense of adifferent kind of playground for
people to play in, or givesfeedback to people in a way
that's not threatening or putsthem on edge or just allows them
to laugh in a different way, sothat there can be relational
(36:03):
trust built, so there can begreater innovative breakthrough.
And so sometimes it's juststarting small.
I think we've all read thepieces about habit stacking and
stacking these good habits, butI think if you try to do
everything at once, you'vealready killed the spirit of
this.
(36:23):
And so pick one, try it and seewhere it goes, or talk to your
team about these are some fiveaction steps for leaders and
teams.
Let's practice one, let's thinkabout it and you crowdsource
which one you're going to tryand sometimes giving the work
back to your team or teammembers allows them to really do
(36:46):
something that you would havenever thought of.
That could be really fun andmemorable for the team.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
And what Linda just said, can play really well into
action.
Step number three play withstrengths, because I think that
a leader inviting people tothink of an opportunity for play
that emphasizes the teamstrengths is one thing.
Also, to ask team members tothink of an opportunity for play
that challenges the areas weneed to grow, because I think
giving that ownership back isalso another way to invite
(37:15):
people to play.
Number four schedule time toleap.
I think that that one, nathan,is really, really important,
because I think there are fewerthings besides compassion and
empathy that are more importantfor a leader than to create
times where your people need toleap.
Key to the story of Unfolded iswhen OC is playing.
(37:41):
You'll notice that she isleaping off a platform.
That is an illustration ofmoments when we as people are
taking a risk, where we don'tknow the next step, if the next
step is going to hold us, wherewhat we have been grounded upon
is taken away, where we feellike our roots are established.
That place is no longer there.
We're not certain of anythingthat's going to catch us.
(38:03):
I think that when leaderscreate these moments of play,
they're intentionally creatingmoments where a leap is
necessary and there's anuncertainty that needs to be
faced for people to grow.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
I love it.
Well, a little teaser.
What's the step after play Try.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Try is the focus of our next couple podcasts on this
.
That is my life in a chapter.
Let's just try.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
Let's just try something, just try, just try.
Sometimes my kids are like Idon't want to do this, what if
bad things happen?
It's like let's just try, let'sjust see what happens.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
It's a different kind of pizza, exactly.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
It's fine, it's different sauce, but the crust
looks different Anyway.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
That's why you're the dad of the playground, nathan.
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Brian and Linda.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate theseconversations.
Lot to think about, so thankyou, thank you and thank you,
listeners, for listening to theLeadership Vision Podcast, our
show helping you build positiveteam culture.
Go pick up a copy of UnfoldedLessons in Transformation from
an Origami Crane out now and theaudio book will be out middle
(39:10):
to end of August, august 19th.
And if you would like to getmore resources about anything
you heard here, or if you'd liketo share this with someone that
you think could benefit fromthose things, we would really
appreciate it.
You can also visit us on theweb at
leadershipvisionconsultingcom orclick the link in the show
notes.
Go, follow us on all thesocials to stay up to date and
(39:31):
to get more resources forbuilding your team and helping
them to play and achieve theirdreams.
I'm Nathan Friberg.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
I'm Linda Shubring and I'm Brian Shubring.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
And on behalf of our entire team, thanks for playing.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Would you like that?
Like how I did that?
The importance of play is to give the characters
of our life a different context,to be who they are, because
sometimes I believe thatstereotype creates a character
of context oh, that person's afox.
What play does?
What play does is it gives ateam a chance to erase the
(00:23):
characterizations that they haveof other people, because the
topic is new.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
And part of that came through our play with other
clients, and so when we wouldgive space for people to partner
up and have a conversationabout something, we usually
found that they were able to gofurther in the conversation and
the reflection than we couldeven teach them about.
Sometimes we're saying lightenup a little bit.
(00:49):
What can we achieve if we justengage with this practice in
disguise and then make itapplicable to the next hard
thing that we have to do?
Speaker 3 (01:02):
You are listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast,
our show helping you buildpositive team culture.
Our consulting firm has beendoing this work for the past 25
years so that leaders arementally engaged and emotionally
healthy.
To learn more about our work,you can click the link in the
show notes or visit us on theweb at
leadershipvisionconsultingcom.
Hello everyone, my name isNathan Friberg and today on the
(01:23):
podcast, I have a question foryou what does it mean for a team
to play?
In today's conversation with DrLinda Schubring and Brian
Schubring, we're going to berethinking play, not as a break
from work, but as essential toit.
Inspired by Chapter 2 ofUnfolded Lessons in
Transformation from an origamicrane, we'll explore how teams
(01:44):
can use play to build trust,practice new behaviors and move
closer to their shared dreams.
We'll unpack how intentionalplaygrounds and organizations
help teams find their voice,learn through failure and
innovate safely, while alsoexploring the risks of staying
too comfortable for too long.
This is part two in ourdiscussion on play.
(02:05):
If you missed the first one,you can go back and listen to it
, but let's jump in and talkabout play.
Brian and Linda, welcome backto the Leadership Vision podcast
.
It feels like just moments agowe were recording the first part
of this two-part little miniseries on play.
Could one of you just reallybriefly, in like 30 seconds,
recap what we talked about maybe?
(02:26):
Quickly define play, quicklydefine playgrounds, and then
we'll jump into applying thisidea for teams and organizations
.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Play is practice in disguise.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
And what that means is giving people the opportunity
to practice various skills andtest some of their capacities
towards a specific objective,but keeping it fun and
lighthearted, somewhatinvitational, where the pressure
is low but the practice and theplay are intentional.
Great, great great.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
So we're going to be applying this idea to teams, to
organizations, to business.
My first question or what Imight be thinking of, leaders is
how do we?
We got work to do, we got a.
Or what I might be thinking ofleaders is we got work to do.
We got a bottom line, we gotdeadlines.
How do we create play?
We're not Google.
We can't just give people 20hours a week to go build their
own little pet projects.
(03:17):
How do you even begin toimplement this idea of play in a
business?
Speaker 1 (03:22):
I think, philosophically, there is maybe
a mind shift that needs tohappen within the leaders, first
and foremost because sometimesthe leaders that we're working
with misunderstand theimportance of play and what it
means for the brain to reallyplay in a professional setting,
and by that I mean giving peoplethe opportunity to try new
(03:45):
things, to think creatively, tohave innovative conversations,
to just press pause for a secondon the looming pressures and
deadlines that we're all tryingto meet, because, yes, that's a
reality.
But how do we put people in amuch more relaxed place where
they're not afraid to trysomething new, they're not
afraid of being shamed or blamed.
No one's going to criticize orjudge others for not having a
(04:09):
super great idea or tryingsomething over and over again.
Because when we play, we're notonly learning about our own
skills and capacities, we'realso learning about the skills
and capacities of other people.
We're learning about the typesof relationships we share with
each other and how we can trustpeople when the pressure is high
.
And if a leader understands theimportance of creating places
(04:32):
where play is permitted, thatleader can gain so much
information on their people,where the clicks are, where the
dynamic relationships are justby watching people play.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
So, brian, my first, or my follow-up then, is do you
have examples of that, like withthe clients that we've worked
with?
Like, because I think ourlisteners are most curious like
how, how, how, it's still how.
Yes, I can you shift my mind?
Great, but how do I do that?
Give us some examples.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I have some multiple come to mind, the one that is
the most clear we're workingwith a CEO, and this did not
happen right away, mind you.
This happened over a period ofmany, many, many months.
But where the team arrived wasutilizing this metaphor of we're
practicing now, and by practice, it meant we're on the practice
(05:22):
field, we're not in the stadium.
By practice, it means we'rewearing our practice jersey,
we're not in the stadium.
By practice, it means we'rewearing our practice jersey.
We're expected to get moredirty, we're expected to not be
fundamentally at our best.
But this idea of we're justgoing to practice right now and
they could spend 60 or 90minutes just practicing,
practicing new ideas, what aboutthis strategy?
Asking people for theiropinions and just this mindset
(05:46):
of we're practicing, we're noton the field of play yet gives
people the chance to quote playalongside one another in a way
that they may not be doing ifthe pressure was super high, and
just that metaphor releases thepressure, sure.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And sometimes it's.
It's the unstructured 90minutes that someone plays
together, right so?
Or the the unstructured time.
There was a group that weworked with maybe 10 years ago
now, and one of the things thatthey realized is that they
weren't office near each other.
These teammates were dispersed,and they were, they were, and
(06:24):
their schedules were so filledwith meetings that they had no
time to just interact, and sothey basically did study hall
once a month and they were inthe same room still doing the
work, but then could look up andsay, hey, have you ever thought
about this?
Or we should get a couple ofpeople down here to talk about
that.
And there was a practice of whatwould it look like if we just
(06:46):
worked closer?
And where can some of thatinnovative breakthrough come
together?
The key to it is that it'sunstructured and maybe there's
some broad goals.
Or the purpose of this time isto, like I said, or like Brian
said, practice.
The purpose of this time is toget to know each other so that
(07:07):
when we have to do the reallyhard things, that there's a
relational understanding,similar to you don't send kids
off to a playground and say,first you have to go down the
slide and once you've done, thatthree times then you have to do
the monkey bar, then you haveto do this, and then you have to
do that.
You've killed the spirit of whatit means to just run at a
playground and enjoy it.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
And that's the invitation that we are asking
leaders to consider is toconsider gathering your team
together, giving them anopportunity to work on something
within the parameters ofwhatever the expectations are,
and just let them go somethingwithin the parameters of
whatever the expectations areand just let them go
(07:51):
Intentionally, not givingguidelines, intentionally not
giving high expectations, andjust watching.
Now, yes, it is going to take adifferent kind of attention on
the leader's behalf of watchinghow people work together, what
they're focusing on, whatquestions they're asking.
Just to pay attention to that,because I also know this.
When teams are given thepermission to play for the first
time, they're not going to knowwhat to do, because most often,
(08:15):
we expect teams to show up acertain way, to do their duties
a specific way and to bemeasured in a specific way.
Play is almost the opposite.
It's just inviting people toshow up and have at it.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
I mentioned Google earlier because I think there's
been a lot written about theirculture around.
I don't know if they'd call itplay, but like psychological
safety really came up as kind oflike there's no bad ideas.
You bring out ideas, it's adumb or it doesn't kind of work
Like that's okay, just keep themgoing.
And I'm curious, if there's ain business, if you would
(08:50):
encourage leaders to createspecific playgrounds like in the
book that are sort of set offto the side where you can do
whatever you want.
There's not real ramifications.
Or can you sort of build someof these ideas of play into
everyday meetings and stuff,like what I think Google did?
Is it one or the other?
Is it both?
Is it what's been mosteffective in just in terms of
(09:13):
getting leaders to loosen up toplay?
Because there's the offsitewhere you're just doing goofy
stuff and you get to know eachother.
But then how do you make playjust a part of every day?
How do you make?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
play just a part of every day.
I think you're onto somethingwith the making play a part of
every day and it's not a part ofeverything.
And so it's not just stop beingserious.
Everybody, lighten up.
Exactly, it is more of how doyou get people to not, once
(09:43):
again, to not take themselves soseriously that they can step in
, loosen their tie a little bit?
Do even people wear ties?
I haven't seen a client wear atie in a long time.
But when I think of the momentswhen people really are playing,
there's also a time that we'veheard when we talk to teams is
that they experience play inservice projects.
So there's an organization wework with.
(10:06):
Once a quarter they do aservice project and they
purposely make it fun.
So it's not.
I think there's this sense thator some place we learned or
were socialized that work has tobe so serious.
And, yes, there are times totake the things that we're
working on very seriously, andthen there's times to not take
ourselves so serious.
And, yes, there are times totake the things that we're
working on very seriously, andthen there's times to not take
(10:28):
ourselves so seriously.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
But this intentionality of play takes
many different forms.
There are some forms where playis intentionally aligned around
some type of purposeful goalthat you're trying to achieve.
There are other contexts whereplay could be just topical,
where you're gathering your teamtogether just like throw ideas
around about some type of topicthat is relevant but not
(10:51):
necessary, maybe to the bottomline or by due on Friday.
There is other intentional playthat comes around this idea of
culture building.
What are the things that you'redoing as an organization that
are playful, that align're doingas an organization, that are
playful, that align more withsome of the rituals and routines
, that you do as an organizationthat creates a place where
(11:13):
people can gather together, play, whether it's on a theme or a
celebration, or even bringing aspecific type of food for
everyone to share.
That's playful.
And so I think one of theimportant things to think about
as a culture is that play isintentional to teams, play is
intentional to the mindset ofpeople and play is intentional
(11:36):
within a larger culture, Becauseif you establish this idea of
play on multiple levels andyou're consistent with it, then
people won't be surprised whenyou ask them to actually play
without specific parameters.
We have a client that we workwith and they are very
intentional on how they'rebuilding their cultural
(11:59):
community through this idea ofplayful events that they do,
whether it's events that mayhappen through a sports season
or events like a barbecuecompetition that they have.
These are playful ways thatpeople are engaged with each
other, that are not about thejob but are about building
(12:22):
relationships with each other.
My point is, play can have acultural application as much as
it can have a team application.
My question to our listeners iswhich is more appropriate to
your organization?
And I would maybe bet thatthere's more likelihood for
teams to embrace play first thanfor larger cultures.
(12:46):
But the point is, let's invitepeople to come together,
eliminate some of therestrictions and rules of
engagement and allow people torelate and to problem solve and
to reflect and to ideate ontheir own intention in a playful
and nonjudgmental way.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
So what I hear you saying, then, is play is both
about building your team cultureand about doing the work of
your business, like it's notjust oh, we're going to get
together and play so that welike each other more, but
there's I mean that's great, butthere's also an element of like
you can be creative problemsolvers.
You can get unstuck, maybe, bythis idea of play.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Yeah, nathan, there's something about that.
We like each other, or wholiked each other, that's that's
true.
And what's also fundamentallytrue is who doesn't.
Uh, because part of theexperience of play is for people
to understand who they trustand who they relate to comma, no
judgment and the purpose ofplay is for you to also better
(13:48):
understand those individualsthat you may not get along with
or not really have the sameperspective on life.
That's just as important withinthe relationship building
construct of what happens whenyou play.
We all have people in our lifethat we don't play well with,
and that's okay for a variety ofreasons, because sometimes
(14:08):
those are the otherrelationships that are not
necessarily about the conflict,but how it is that we respond
when we're faced with tension orsomething that is getting in
our way or some type of specificchallenge.
It's more about us than it isabout the disagreement in the
relationship.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
I want to maybe transition to the second part
here, because in the lastepisode we were talking about
play as the individual.
In a playground, there's anexit.
There's this idea of being toosafe, being too complacent.
I got the playground, I cancrush the monkey bars, I can go
up and down the slide, noproblem.
What does that look like for ateam to be stuck?
(14:53):
Or maybe I'll ask it is there adanger of playing too much?
Is there a danger of being, Idon't know?
Analysis, paralysis comes tomind, like what is that concept
look like as it relates to ateam?
What does that concept look?
Speaker 2 (15:04):
like as it relates to a team.
Sometimes play is conflictavoidant, like practicing this
conflict avoidance, and we haveseen the teams that are so
lighthearted that it seems likeis anyone serious about anything
, or are you trying to movetogether in in the in the same
(15:26):
way.
And so when we think about play, it's not just getting stuck,
it's making sure you're makingforward progression, forward
movement, that there is somemeasure of sort where you can
say, yep, we're, we're.
Now to this point this, this isgood.
Like and this is good enough,and now we've learned enough
(15:46):
that we can step into the nextarena.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
There's a great Simon Sinek book when he talks about.
It's called the Infinite Gameand he talks about how Kodak got
so safe that they essentiallyrefused to innovate and they
owned all the patents on digitalcameras but just kind of
refused to go into that andthey're not a company anymore or
whatever.
And so I think that there'ssome some real truth to the
(16:12):
dangers of just playing it toosafe and not being willing to,
like you said, get out of thatplayground and move to that next
thing.
Brian, I think you were goingto say something.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Oh, you're tapping into something here.
Playing it too safe is atwo-sided coin.
Playing it too safe can be thefun-loving comfort culture where
everyone's having a great time.
There's not a whole lot ofchallenge happening there, but
man, are we having fun?
The other side of that coin iscomplacent play, where you have
(16:45):
a complacent culture, where thebully at the top of the slide is
allowed to be the bully at thetop of the slide, inhibiting
anybody else from really playing, and that one person controls
the whole thing.
Therein lies a unique challenge, because that complacency
culture is not only freezing thebully at the top of the slide
(17:05):
but freezing the growth anddevelopment of anybody else.
That's where I think we reallyhave a challenge is we are not
saying that we're promoting playto reinforce comfort culture.
We're also not reinforcing thisconcept of play with a
complacent culture, because bothof those cultures aren't
promoting the kinds of growthand development where all people
(17:27):
are benefiting, or most peopleare benefiting, and that's the
purpose of play.
I really believe that whenleaders are looking at their
teams at play and they justmaybe ask themselves do I have a
comfort culture or a complacentculture, or is it a competitive
culture?
(17:47):
And by competitive culture.
I mean a culture that is askingpeople to show up in a specific
way to engage each other, wherethere is some type of
progression relationally and ifsomething's not working we're
given permission to let that goand to try something new.
And sometimes I believe thatwhen we are in either a comfort
(18:09):
culture or a complacent culture,that those cultures place a
lens over our vision and we justsee things as okay that maybe
six months ago we would neverhave considered okay because we
were in a different place.
I think that play is really aninteresting way to look at our
team's dynamic and whether ornot we're growing as a team.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
The organizations that we're working with right
now, I wouldn't say there's notone that is experiencing a
comfort culture.
I think there's so muchhappening in the world today
that there's a lot of unknown,there's a lot of uncertainty and
there is no room to becomfortable anymore, and so it's
not that you just buckle downand you do things with more
(18:53):
intensity.
Sometimes we're saying saying,lighten up a little bit.
What can we achieve if we justengage with this practice in
disguise and then make itapplicable to the next hard
thing that we have to do?
Speaker 3 (19:08):
Are there signs or signals that a leader can look
for to know if they're toocomfortable, or to know if
they're not maybe playingintentionally towards something
Dear?
Speaker 2 (19:22):
God, yeah, like watching people quiet, quit,
watching people not engage.
Looking at some of thosemeasures where you have a bunch
of people that are just checkingboxes and not really engaged
holistically.
Some of the leaders that wework with, they are in it
physically.
There is this physicalembodiment that they come in and
(19:43):
they join in on whatever thechallenge is.
There are people that are in itwith their minds and their
hearts and their spirits and Iwould pay attention to the
places where maybe they're not Ithink it's more of it could
feel apathetic or well.
I just don't know how tomotivate them, because maybe
they're all just a littlecomfortable.
(20:05):
Push them a little harder.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I'm not sure if I'm speaking from our experience
that's Linda and I and how wework work with clients.
What I've learned is, when yougive a team a chance to play
anywhere with anything, it isclear really fast who's getting
along, who's not getting along,who wants to play, who doesn't
(20:29):
want to play.
It's almost like within 30seconds you can start to see
these teams and fiefdoms andvillains emerge from the shadows
and it just seems so obvious tous how they're playing.
But I really believe that manypeople really aren't looking for
that or they don't want to seewhat really happens.
When people are asked to playtogether and the converse is
(20:51):
also true Just giving a team achance to wrestle with some type
of issue, you can see, likewhat Linda's saying, teams jump
in right away and nine out of 10people are fully in, and so I
think that play is intentional,like we have to create times
when we, like we're saying atthe beginning of the podcast,
we're creating times and placesfor teams to be creative, and
(21:12):
it's also an invitation forobservation.
We need to spend time watchinghow people interact with each
other.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
And it's not trying to control the villain or
whoever's perceived as thevillain.
I think sometimes it's thedevil's advocate or someone that
is speaking from an outsideview that helps with the
innovative breakthrough.
And so sometimes it's notrushing the play, but, yes,
setting some ground rules, butnot rushing.
(21:40):
You know, people interactingtogether and like playing nice
right from the get go.
Yes, there's professionaldecorum, but how do you?
How do you then just kind ofwait it out, Because maybe two
people that are arguing areactually on the same side.
They're just doing it loudly,right?
Speaker 1 (21:57):
And sometimes, when you play, you have to just
accept some of the things asthey are, because we can't have
a perfect play.
We have an executive that we'reworking with.
He read the book and one of thestatements that he made was
really revelatory for me when itcomes to this idea of play.
And he said this yeah, I knowwe have our Fox and Fox is going
to be Fox.
And he said this yeah, I knowwe have our Fox and Fox is going
(22:32):
to be Fox.
When he said that, he meant wehave a person who plays that
role and really can't changethat.
But he said this.
But to focus on how the restare playing together, I think
that people are wired to try toeliminate the threat as fast as
possible.
That's what our brains think.
But in this opportunity of play, there is also the opportunity
for us to shift our perspectiveon all the things that are going
(22:55):
well and just emphasizing that,because I think we can learn a
lot from play giving permissionand then asking ourselves and
what do we carry forward?
Speaker 3 (23:04):
so, brian, linda, what I'm thinking of right now
is this, this quote that I wrotedown when I was prepping for
this, that I didn't paste thesource of it, so I don't know
where this came from, but, uh,it said, when teams are
encouraged to play throughprototyping, simulations or
reflection, they often surfacehidden talents and build deeper
trust and create new solutions.
And so, brian, when youmentioned the fox, it made me
(23:26):
think of.
Perhaps the fox is justmisunderstood In the story.
The fox is a villain.
In Unfold, the fox is kind ofthe villain character and maybe
that's how people think of thefox on their team, but it's not
a villain.
So I'm wondering how this ideaof play can help teams unlock
(23:47):
innovation, help people feelmore like they belong to the
team, have a sense of purpose,when otherwise they might just
ignore that, without this kindof proverbial playground.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
The importance of play is to give the characters
of our life a different context,to be who they are, because
sometimes I believe thatstereotype creates a character
of context oh, that person's afox.
What play does?
What play does is it gives ateam a chance to erase the
(24:26):
characterizations that they haveof other people, because the
topic is new.
Let us illustrate.
We have a client that we workwith every other month.
We are working with theirexecutives, and one have a
client that we work with Everyother month we're working with
their executives, and one of theexperiences that we do with the
executives is a 90-minutesession called Moments that
Matter, and that session is atime capsule or a time capture
(24:50):
of what is a moment that mattersright now to us as leaders.
What that does is it invitespeople to step into a moment
that matters right now and bydoing that, they're coming as
individuals and not necessarilytheir role or a reflection of
who they've been in the past.
It's kind of like it's a blankslate Everyone starts new
(25:13):
because the moment is soimportant.
And by doing that, it almost islike you're taking the
character or thecharacterization out of context
and putting them into a newconversation where we kind of
start over with our relationship.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
And we've done this work with so many other clients
that usually just needed somealignment around language, some
alignment around direction,where it's promoting a kind of
understanding of, oh, when yousay this, this is what you mean.
And these moments that mattergive freedom to a team to ask,
(25:56):
ask the stupid question, or tohave a smaller group
conversation with a partner or agroup of a group of three, and
we found that that sometimes, bygetting really smart people to
be batting around ideas a littlebit differently, create this
sense of okay, this is anotherway to look at it.
(26:17):
And, yes, fox is giving mevillain energy, but guess what?
He's also telling us that thisreally matters to us.
Wow, my internal Fox is causingme to speak right now really
passionately, and I'm realizingthat it's because this moment is
really important.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
A moments that matter .
Conversation is a topic that isnew.
It's important to the here andnow and it is truly a
conversation among equals,without any specific outcome.
We're just talking aboutsomething because it's important
and we don't know where it'sgoing to go, so as facilitators,
we have to hold the experienceloosely, but this team engages
because they know hey, now's thetime where we're having a
(27:02):
conversation, and it really is atime when relationships are
reevaluated, alliances resurfaceand people that maybe don't
talk as much or talk in adifferent way are given a chance
to say something in a new way.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
And part of that came through our play with other
clients, and so when we wouldgive space for people to partner
up and have a conversationabout something, we usually
found that they were able to gofurther in the conversation and
the reflection than we couldeven teach them about.
So what we were doing wasunearthing their best experience
(27:39):
or their best answer or causingthem to really own, you know,
either the solution orcomponents of the problem that
needed to be fixed, and so, onceagain, a lot of our work is
playing and trying new things inorder to bring about that play
(28:00):
in better ways and Moments thatMatter is one of those.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
And when we have these conversations.
What I think is reallyimportant and back to the main
metaphor of the book is thatwhen people are having these
conversations, they're actuallyresourcing their maps within.
They're resourcing their livedexperience within the
organization when they were CEOof a different company.
They're referencing the wisdomthat they've learned, other
relationships within theorganization they are map,
(28:27):
reflecting and sharing out loud.
And that is so importantbecause the conversations happen
regardless of title orinfluence or geographic reach or
how many people report to them.
It's people bringing theirwhole selves to a conversation,
and that conversation is playful.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
I remember working with one group and we had broken
them up to talk about thedifferent maps of their lives
and where they've experiencedthe kind of growth.
And so people are breaking up.
And then we see these twopeople and their partners, and
they had the laptop open.
So there's part of me that wasjudging right away and a little
(29:10):
bit disappointed, like I wishthey could just wait, just give
me 30 more minutes to facilitatethis conversation.
And then I so I just started toobserve and I realized that one
team member was showing hispartner where exactly in the
world he grew up in this place,that he went to school, because
it gave him context of oh well,then that makes a lot more sense
(29:36):
about how you show up what isimportant to you, and it was in
that kind of learning that aliteral map on a website gave
insight to a team member andpromoted a better working
relationship as a result,promoted a better working
relationship.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
As a result, we had some really good friends
visiting us this last week.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
We went to college together.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
Long-time friends, and there's something about when
you know those things about aperson that you just feel safe
with them.
You feel safe to be yourself,you feel safe to share things
that you wouldn't with otherpeople, and that kind of shared
history of maps, if you will, issuch a, I think, just a
(30:23):
profound metaphor, because youthink about new people you meet
in your life, new colleaguesthat come into your life and
you're not really sure how can Iplay with this person?
What can I joke about?
What sort of silly ideas forthis problem we have can I bring
up without it getting shot down?
And if you think about thosepeople in your life that you do
(30:43):
feel the most safe with, whicharen't necessarily your family
members, there is an ability tojust play and be so silly with
that.
Sometimes you come up with great, great stuff because of that
shared history.
And so I don't know if this isnecessarily our last question,
but is there a way that you havefound for I know you mentioned
(31:05):
the what was it called Momentsthat matter, but is there a way
to speed that process up withwith teams to better understand?
I know you've done a lot ofdifferent activities, but how do
you help team members get tothat place where they can
actually play, because I thinkif you just throw everybody in a
room, you're like, okay, play,start creating different letters
(31:28):
with your body, like it's likeI don't know any of these people
, I don't know if I can do thisyou know what I mean.
I didn't say what company thatwas from I know.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
I know.
I know One of the reasons whyleaders hire us to work with
(31:57):
their teams and theirorganizations is that they know
that the space that Brian and Icreate between us creates spaces
for people to grow and get toknow themselves in a different
way, and when I think about someof the activities that we do or
the questions that we ask, alot of times we are seeking to
get to know the differentcharacteristics of each team
member.
So as we get to know people,then we can say, oh, that's
similar to you and we're drawingconnections between people,
(32:22):
between people and that spacethat we created for them to grow
.
Eventually we fade to thebackground because they've
learned to play in the safetythat Brian and I have created,
and so I think there issomething to be said about the
way that you can accelerate aninvestment that doesn't happen
with just inside people thatcome in and lead a different
training and get you talking.
Yes, some of those things canbe helpful, but sometimes an
(32:43):
outside person can give the kindof insight and parameters and
permission to let people be morefree to try new things, to
express something that maybethey've felt confined by, and
practice new behaviors thatdemonstrate that they are
growing as a leader and as ateam member.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
So I have some action steps here that I want your
feedback on, and we don't needto talk a lot about this.
There's five.
So, leaders, listening, this iswhat you need to go, do, uh,
create a playground, celebratefailure, play with strengths,
schedule time to leap and askoften, ask often is you know?
(33:30):
Are we still playing?
Are we making progress?
What do you think about thoseaction steps?
Does that seem like?
Obviously this isn't like a dothis and then this happens type
of a thing, but I think numbertwo celebrate lessons learned
and celebrate lessons unlearned.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Oh, say that again.
Celebrate learning andunlearning.
Okay, yeah, because sometimeswe, they can unlearn patterns
(34:08):
and ways of doing things thatare no longer working.
Things go isn't as easy as itsounds because we there's an
unlearning of the ways that wethink and unlearning of the ways
that we relate to each otherways of unlearning
characterizations of otherpeople, and that's part of play
(34:29):
we're playing away old patternsand playing in to new patterns.
I like that that's really good.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
I like that and nathan, I think it's like
running slower doesn't make youfaster maybe it does, it does
actually, if you have good form,it does actually running slower
.
You have to be slower on yournon-workout days, so it does
yeah, and false advertising thatthese shoes can be run a four
(34:58):
minute mile anyway.
Anyway, what were were going tosay something on topic?
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Yes, I well, Nathan, I love these action steps, but
if you're like me, at by thetime I got to number three, I'm
like oh I'm, I've lost, I'velost, forget it, I'll, I'll try
something else, we'll just do aservice project instead.
And so I would say look at theseaction steps, look in the show
notes or wherever you put them,nathan, and begin to wonder, as
(35:22):
a leader, which one you want toincorporate this week or in the
next two weeks.
Or maybe it's getting one ofyour team members together and
you say I want to practice thisstep in practicing a different
way of doing something.
Can you help me craft anopening to a meeting?
(35:43):
Or can we do something thatlooks a lot different, that
creates this sense of adifferent kind of playground for
people to play in, or givesfeedback to people in a way
that's not threatening or putsthem on edge or just allows them
to laugh in a different way, sothat there can be relational
(36:03):
trust built, so there can begreater innovative breakthrough.
And so sometimes it's juststarting small.
I think we've all read thepieces about habit stacking and
stacking these good habits, butI think if you try to do
everything at once, you'vealready killed the spirit of
this.
(36:23):
And so pick one, try it and seewhere it goes, or talk to your
team about these are some fiveaction steps for leaders and
teams.
Let's practice one, let's thinkabout it and you crowdsource
which one you're going to tryand sometimes giving the work
back to your team or teammembers allows them to really do
(36:46):
something that you would havenever thought of.
That could be really fun andmemorable for the team.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
And what Linda just said, can play really well into
action.
Step number three play withstrengths, because I think that
a leader inviting people tothink of an opportunity for play
that emphasizes the teamstrengths is one thing.
Also, to ask team members tothink of an opportunity for play
that challenges the areas weneed to grow, because I think
giving that ownership back isalso another way to invite
(37:15):
people to play.
Number four schedule time toleap.
I think that that one, nathan,is really, really important,
because I think there are fewerthings besides compassion and
empathy that are more importantfor a leader than to create
times where your people need toleap.
Key to the story of Unfolded iswhen OC is playing.
(37:41):
You'll notice that she isleaping off a platform.
That is an illustration ofmoments when we as people are
taking a risk, where we don'tknow the next step, if the next
step is going to hold us, wherewhat we have been grounded upon
is taken away, where we feellike our roots are established.
That place is no longer there.
We're not certain of anythingthat's going to catch us.
(38:03):
I think that when leaderscreate these moments of play,
they're intentionally creatingmoments where a leap is
necessary and there's anuncertainty that needs to be
faced for people to grow.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
I love it.
Well, a little teaser.
What's the step after play Try.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Try is the focus of our next couple podcasts on this
.
That is my life in a chapter.
Let's just try.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
Let's just try something, just try, just try.
Sometimes my kids are like Idon't want to do this, what if
bad things happen?
It's like let's just try, let'sjust see what happens.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
It's a different kind of pizza, exactly.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
It's fine, it's different sauce, but the crust
looks different Anyway.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
That's why you're the dad of the playground, nathan.
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Brian and Linda.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate theseconversations.
Lot to think about, so thankyou, thank you and thank you,
listeners, for listening to theLeadership Vision Podcast, our
show helping you build positiveteam culture.
Go pick up a copy of UnfoldedLessons in Transformation from
an Origami Crane out now and theaudio book will be out middle
(39:10):
to end of August, august 19th.
And if you would like to getmore resources about anything
you heard here, or if you'd liketo share this with someone that
you think could benefit fromthose things, we would really
appreciate it.
You can also visit us on theweb at
leadershipvisionconsultingcom orclick the link in the show
notes.
Go, follow us on all thesocials to stay up to date and
(39:31):
to get more resources forbuilding your team and helping
them to play and achieve theirdreams.
I'm Nathan Friberg.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
I'm Linda Shubring and I'm Brian Shubring.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
And on behalf of our entire team, thanks for playing.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Would you like that?
Like how I did that?
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