August 4, 2025 • 37 mins
In this episode, Nathan Freeburg speaks with Unfolded authors Dr. Linda and Brian Schubring about Chapter 2: Play. Together, they discuss why play is essential for personal and professional transformation. They explore metaphors of playgrounds, how to know when to move on from comfortable spaces, and the role of reflection and growth in leadership.
Key Topics Covered:
- Play as practice in disguise
- The metaphor of playgrounds for professional development
- Knowing when it’s time to leave your “playground”
- The fear of transition and how to move through it
- Encouraging growth in ourselves and others through playful practice
Pull Quotes:
“Don’t be afraid to play and try something new in the pursuit of your dream.”
“Are you still growing? If not, it might be time to move to a new playground.”
“Sometimes we’re not progressing in our play because we’re inspiring others to start theirs.”
Resources Mentioned:
- Unfolded: Lessons in Transformation from an Origami Crane
- Trevor Noah’s memoir (Born a Crime)
- Stuart Brown’s book Play: How It Shapes the Brain
Learn More:
Visit leadershipvisionconsulting.com for resources on strengths-based team development and leadership.
🎉 Unfolded is a National Bestseller!
#1 in Business & #5 Overall on USA Today
#17 on Publisher’s Weekly Nonfiction
📘 Grab your copy + get the FREE Reflection Guide!
-
Read the full blog post here!
CONTACT US
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ABOUT
The Leadership Vision Podcast is a weekly show sharing our expertise in discovering, practicing, and implementing a Strengths-based approach to people, teams, and culture. Contact us to talk to us about helping your team understand the power of Strengths.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Sometimes I believe that there's a pause in our play
where we may not be making theprogress that we believe is
necessary to fulfill our dream,but we're actually providing the
inspiration to other people tofulfill their dream.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Because play helps us practice levity, where we don't
take ourselves so seriously,but maybe we take whatever we're
working on seriously or thosearound us seriously we're
working on seriously, or thosearound us seriously, but the
practice of levity will also Idon't know maybe increase our
enjoyment or increase ourcapacity to build relationships.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
That last.
You are listening to theLeadership Vision Podcast, our
show helping you build positiveteam culture.
Our consulting firm has beendoing this work for the past 25
years so that leaders arementally engaged and emotionally
healthy.
To learn more about our work,you can click the link in the
show notes or visit us on theweb at
leadershipvisionconsultingcom.
Hello everyone, my name isNathan Freeberg and today on the
(00:53):
podcast, I get to talk with DrLinda and Brian Schubring,
co-authors of the USA TodayPublishers Weekly and Porchlight
National-selling book UnfoldedLessons in Transformation from
an Origami Crane, and in thisepisode we are going to be
diving into chapter two of thebook, which is all about play.
(01:14):
We'll explore how playgroundsthose safe spaces to experiment,
imagine and fail are essentialto discovering your voice and
pursuing your dreams.
We'll also talk about the riskof staying too long in those
playgrounds and how to use playstrategically.
Now, as you listen, considerthis where is your playground
(01:34):
and what might be holding youback from stepping out of it?
All right, let's dive in.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Brian and Linda.
Hello, Hello.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Excuse me, I was reading your book, oh sorry, how
did you like the introduction?
What our listeners don't knowis that took me about 15 times
to get out.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
It's all about the play of it.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
I was fumbling up, but I think that's a good
kickoff to what we're going tobe talking about today.
So chapter two is all aboutplay, and right now, when we're
recording this, it's the middleof summer and because my kids
aren't in school and becausethey're not in a lot of camps,
my summer is full of play.
It is playing games that wemake up on the spot.
(02:21):
It's playing games like catch.
It's playing things literallyout on the playground.
I don't know if you're familiarwith the ever popular lava
monster.
The rules of this game I haveyet to figure out, because it's
basically the kids just want meto chase them around on the on
the play structure.
But I have a question to kick usoff here.
I know we could get into that,but I realized I could talk
(02:44):
about that too much here.
This chapter on play isfascinating to me and I'm
curious why did you include this?
Or maybe what is maybe anotherway to say?
That is what is kind of thelarger message around play that
we want to talk about.
And then I have you can'treally see this, but I've
highlighted so many things inhere that I want to ask you
about, so maybe say this adifferent way how do you define
(03:07):
play in the context ofleadership or transformation, or
lessons from an origami crane?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yeah, well, very simply, we define play as
practice in disguise, Wheneversomeone is going after a goal or
attempting to do something.
We know that many tries are inplace, but when we started to
put the book together, we weretalking about the elements of
(03:36):
play and the joy and the fun indiscovering things that we like
as humans.
And no matter who you are orwhere you've been, you have some
sort of there's been some sortof play in your background, and
when you start to really thinkabout the things that you loved
(03:56):
when you were young, you canmaybe draw a through line to the
things that you most enjoy now,just the adult version of them
to the things that you mostenjoy now just the adult version
of them.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
One of the reasons why I wanted to include an idea
around play is two reasons.
One, I really believe that whenadults are pursuing a dream of
theirs, they often think thatthere's a very short bridge
between the conception of thedream and the fulfillment of the
(04:26):
dream.
And what I've learned is thatfor dreams to be fulfilled,
there's a long pathway ofpractice and trying and
developing and growing on ourway towards a dream.
And I wanted to somehow capturethat in the allegory.
And one of the reasons why Ichose a playground was because
in raising our daughter, I wouldbring her to playgrounds.
(04:50):
Often Throughout the year.
We'd make up games that wouldinclude other kids and you just
watched how children learn toplay together, how they
challenge themselves, how theychallenge their abilities, they
challenge each other, and therewas something about that playful
nature that I wanted to conveyin the allegory that when we
pursue our dreams, it ofteninvolves other people that are
(05:10):
around us, that are helping usin the journey.
Fulfilling and pursuing ourdreams is often about where we
are, so context is huge andoftentimes the challenges of the
playgrounds in our lives areoften frustrating, but the
playground sometimes doesn'treally change.
The resources are still therefor us to try and try again.
(05:32):
That's why I wanted play to bea main theme is because I want
adults to be invited into theplay process that practice
provides for us.
It can be fun, it can beenjoyable as well as frustrating
, but there are lessons to learnthroughout.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
So for me, I think about times growing up where I
was forced to practice piano and, although I loved part of it,
sometimes the practicing wasjust like oh what a drag Until I
was actually playing and then Iguess I would enjoy it.
But for me it's not like, okay,practice is always hard and
(06:09):
miserable.
I think we wanted to say thatpractice is enjoyable.
It draws life into us and outof us by the ways that we engage
.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
And through play.
Our main character in theallegory is drawing her dream
closer to its reality by playing, and so I think there's this
unique relationship between howwe play and how close we're
progressing or how close ourdream is coming to us.
And so there's this uniqueinteraction, and sometimes I
(06:42):
believe that we ourselves canaccelerate the fulfillment of
our dream by how we play and whowe're playing with.
And there are also times in lifewhere we can de-accelerate the
promise of our dream by choosingnot to play, or choose to play
only in hiding, where otherscan't be involved in and others
(07:03):
can't help.
So both of those elements areclear in this chapter of play.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
I want to talk about the playground for a little bit,
because I think it's a greatmetaphor and I want to maybe
expand the definition over whatwe think about when we think of
a playground.
One of the things I really likedyou talk about in the book here
is how, OC, there's a sense ofsafety on the playground and I
could be with my friends andwe're goofing around doing this
(07:32):
stuff.
When I was researching this, Icame across I think it's a PhD,
stuart Brown.
I don't know if you've heard ofthis guy before.
He has this whole book on play.
It's called Play how it Shapesthe Brain, and he emphasizes
that play isn't just aboutspecific activities but a state
(07:52):
of mind characterized byenjoyment, suspension of
self-consciousness and desirefor continuation.
And so talk a little bit aboutor maybe even describe like
what's a playground that you'vemaybe had in your own lives,
because what I want to do issort of move this out of the
like we're playing dodgeball,we're playing love a monster
(08:13):
into what are the activities orwhat are the spaces or places
where you can play in pursuit ofthat dream on a playground that
is not a playground.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Does that make sense?
Yeah, it certainly does.
One note in the beginning hereis I did reference books and
articles on the psychology ofplay to inform how I was writing
this chapter.
So that theory is clearly inthis chapter.
Second, why playground?
The playground in the book isan actual playground that is two
(08:47):
blocks from our house.
And why that playground isimportant.
First, it is a parametered andprotected playground.
All sides of the playgroundhave something structural that
are defining the actualplayground itself.
Second, there are threedevelopmental areas in the
playground.
There's a playground for thelittles, a playground for a
(09:10):
little bit older children and aplayground for much older
children.
And every one of those smallerplaygrounds has their own
challenges.
That's second, because it'sdevelopmental and yet contained
in the same place.
The third element that'simportant to our playground is
there's safety and shelter inthe playground, and that's
illustrated by the twocottonwood trees.
(09:32):
That safety and shelter, Ibelieve, is necessary for people
to be able to play in a waythat allows them to express
their freedom.
Number four there are elementsto play with in the playground.
You see the neighborhood kidsand parents.
They bring their sand toys,their soccer balls and things
(09:52):
that they play with and theyleave them in the playground for
other people to use asresources.
That's also important for me,and one of the things that's
hidden in the book and wementioned this once in one
sentence is that there's a wayout.
There is a secret gate on oneend of the corner of this
playground.
That is a way out to adifferent part of the world, and
(10:14):
so those elements, I think, arereally important for the reader
, because playgrounds representprotected spaces.
That could be anything, and inthat protected space we have
opportunities for growth anddevelopment.
There are resources there thatare part of the playground and
resources that other peoplebring, and there's a sense of
safety and protection while weplay.
(10:35):
That's just the playground, andnot to mention that the people
in the playground, but that'swhy we think the playground is
so important is because thatidea can be then used to
describe the places and theexperiences that we each have as
individuals, where we've beengiven a chance to play and to
(10:55):
grow and to pursue our dreamswithin the metaphoric
playgrounds of our lives.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
So then, if there's one way out, is that the goal to
get out of the playground?
Or do you just go fromplayground to playground to
playground throughout life, asyou are in pursuit of different
and bigger and more audacious?
Speaker 1 (11:15):
dreams and that my friend is left to the reader.
All right, but it is clear,Nathan, like when you have this
playground there, there is onegate that leads to a greater
world and we never know.
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Well, for me, the idea of the playground really
came to light about I don't know, 25 years ago.
27 years ago, I was in a gradprogram studying administration
in higher education, and in oneof the classes the professor was
talking about the playground ofhigher education and to
understand who the players are.
And so it wasn't just this isstudent life and this is faculty
(11:57):
and this is the admin and theseare the students, but what are
the factors and how do you playtogether on this playground of
higher education?
And I think it's been an imagethat has definitely stuck with
me.
It was a literal playgroundthat the story came to light.
(12:18):
Our story came to light, but Ithink about how much play we've
experienced at Leadership Visionand the ways that we learn as
we're engaged in play.
So why not take that metaphor alittle bit deeper?
We provide the playground andthen it's up to people whether
(12:38):
they'll engage or not.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
I also had an experience in my own life where
I was really, really enjoyingthe playground that I was in.
I was having fun, the peoplethat were around me were super
energizing and creating it.
I just felt like I had made itprofessionally and I was super
excited.
However, there was a person inmy life who really was looking
(13:02):
over my shoulder and had thisvision that I had already
utilized all the resources of myplayground and was basically
saying to me there's the way out.
I think you need to take it.
And there are times in my lifewhere I've really realized that,
even though I feel like I'm,you know, doing really well or
(13:24):
surrounded by great people, thatI may have extinguished really
all that that playground has tooffer.
And there's sometimes thisblindness that we have when we
have really reached ourpotential somewhere and we
wrestle with you know, do I stayand continue to enjoy the
fulfillment of my potential oris there something else out
(13:45):
there that I'm just unaware of?
And there was a great degree offear and uncertainty and
self-doubt when I chose to leave, and I think that there are
many people who can relate tothis story because we are
enjoying something present.
But there could be this likeyou know, voice within us saying
but is there something more?
(14:06):
And I think that we payattention to that.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
This is honestly the main thing that I want to talk
to you about today, because andI'm going to paraphrase this but
there's this idea that if you,if you don't leave the
playground, you're going to getlimited by what's there.
And I can't help but talk aboutmy kids in this moment, because
we are prime playground years.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
You search for the best playgrounds in the world.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Yeah well, I was just going to say we drove down to
Palm Springs a couple of yearsago from Portland and we would
literally stop.
I would do all this research onwhere are the playgrounds like?
What's a big playground, youknow, not just like a little
rinky dink, some swings and aslide.
And so, watching the kids growover the years and experience
more and bigger playgrounds andwhat they can handle and it used
(14:54):
to be I would have to help themacross the monkey bars and now
now they're like doing onehanded jumps, american Ninja
Warrior style.
I'm like, how do you have thatmuch upper body strength?
And last year we had the chanceto go to Europe and we went to
this place called Wow Park,which is like I don't even know
how it's safe.
But this, just this crazyplayground I mean it wasn't even
(15:15):
a playground necessarily, butthis idea of until you try to do
something harder or bigger ormore difficult, you never know.
And so this I mean it'sunderlined and highlighted and
red-starred You're limited bywhat becomes familiar to you.
So my question in all of thisis how do you know when it's
(15:38):
time to get out of theplayground?
Don't tell me it's left up tothe reader.
How do you know when you havepracticed and played enough?
How do you know when you'reready?
Maybe you never know.
How do you you always have, Imean, there's oc's got all this
fear and I was like, just keepdoing it, man, you're a woman
you're gonna, you're gonna yeah,it's gonna be be hard, you're
going to, you're going to fail,you're going to flop.
(16:00):
I don't remember my exactquestion in there, but just that
idea of like when yourplayground is is, how do you
know when it's limited to you,limiting you, versus like I'm
really good at what I'm doingand I want to keep doing it
because I'm really good Doesthat does yes.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
The first question to ask is are you growing?
Are you growing If you aretrying new things, if you are
pushing yourself in new ways?
That's one thing.
We meet many people who justget so comfortable that there's
no surprise anymore.
(16:36):
There's no wonder, there's noexcitement.
There is almost a like well,this is just where I am.
That could be a good indicator.
You're ready for something new,or something new introduced in
that playground?
But the key question is are yougrowing?
(16:56):
Have you learned the lessonsthat this stage has taught you?
Yeah, and sometimes people staytoo long and they get stuck.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Linda's dead on.
Are you growing?
Two ways to know if you are.
To know if you're growingwithin your playground, is there
somewhere else?
Because, nathan, your questionwas is it time to leave?
Where's their potential?
Like, when do I know it's timeto go?
We had this clearly illustratedwithin the book because when oc
(17:27):
starts to play, she's playing byherself, isolated behind the
cottonwood trees, where no onecan see her, and one of our
characters, turtle, leads her tothe first playground, or the
youngest playground.
That scene illustrates thatthere are people around you that
(17:48):
can lead you to the next placesof growth if you're willing to
follow them.
That's a key indicator for usis who is around us that can
help us grow and also lead us tothe place where there is growth
.
There's another section in thiswhere the animals leave Oss, or
the characters leave Ossi andgo to another part of the
(18:10):
playground to play without her,which happens to be the next
stage of development, and she'sleft behind.
So where are?
So?
Another indication to us is, aswe look around in our
metaphoric playgrounds, arethere places that we see people
with you know that are a littlebit older or more experienced,
have different kinds of talent,where they're growing in the
(18:30):
expression of that, and that maybe the invitation for us to go
where they are, because that isalso an indication of growth.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Because I think, nathan, in one of the
definitions that you talkedabout with play was just the you
kind of lose track of selfalmost, and you think about
watching young children play andthey think that you can't hear
them as they're sing-songing andpretending to make meals and
tea out of sand and cookies, andwhatever else, and there's just
(18:59):
such that unawareness of theoutside world and this
cultivation of an imaginationthat is unmatched.
You can't plan for it, preparefor it.
You almost just drop a child inand give them some freedom, and
that's what happens, and that'swhat our main character is
doing behind the cottonwoodtrees.
(19:21):
And when she is discovered, Ithink there was a element of
surprise because she didn'trealize that and you know yeah,
she didn't realize that anyoneelse would wanna.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Yeah, she's embarrassed.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
She's embarrassed like oh no oh, I found out like
now, now you've it.
That's another point of growth.
So she almost in some waysdecided to fake it until she
made it right.
So like yeah, like this is agame, so join in.
And once again, it's thiselement of growth, element of
(19:53):
learning new things, of not justgetting comfortable, because I
think places of comfort are theplaces that can stifle us the
most.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
And that awareness of comfort is part of what we're
also asking people to consideris their own self-awareness,
like self-awareness of askingyourself the question am I
comfortable?
Am I being challenged?
Are the people around megrowing Like?
Looking around to the peoplethat are around you, do they
share the same experiences, dothey share similar dreams?
Are they progressing andgrowing in similar ways?
(20:24):
Or are you the one that may bethe youngest one to show up or
maybe, like you're, the oldestand most experienced one to
remain?
These are all self-awarenessquestions that we have connected
to this idea of play, becausesometimes when we play, we are
the most experienced one who'splaying.
That's one level ofself-awareness, and sometimes in
(20:45):
play, when we arrive, werealize that we're the youngest
or the least experienced, butwe're ready, but we're ready for
that next piece.
And so it's self-awareness,awareness of those around you.
And, third, aware of the voicesof wisdom and insight and truth
that are speaking to you, thatare sometimes asking the right
(21:07):
questions like hmm, well, maybeyou are ready.
Have you ever considered this?
Have you ever considered that?
And those voices are also waysto inspire us to move to
different parts of theplayground, because we're ready
for that kind of growth and playis important because it gives
us practice to fulfill ourpotential.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
And I can't help to think of Joseph Campbell's
hero's journey in this yes yes,you know, if you're not familiar
with that, it's a very famousmodel.
I mean, every superhero movie,luke Skywalker, like so many
characters, it's like there'sthis person who's comfortable.
They're met with this challengeto accept the call.
(21:46):
Usually there's some sort ofwise mentor, and then they have
to decide if they're going torise to the occasion, so to
speak.
That's right.
What I'm thinking about now isgoing back to that first episode
on, or we're talking aboutdreams is how do you know and
I'm going to figure out how tophrase this so you're in this
playground, you're playing, butyou're terrified to tell anyone
(22:09):
about your dream.
You're terrified of trying it,because who are you to do
something?
This is silly.
You have a family that'sdependent on your income.
You can't make that leap.
You can't exit the playground.
What are?
I don't know if you can sharestories, like specific stories
of you, know people or evenyourself, of how do you take
(22:31):
that leap?
Because I also came across thistransitions model from William
Bridges, where it talks aboutlike what's so terrifying is
this in between place whereyou've like you yeah, you can't
quite, you haven't arrived,you're still here, and so it's
just.
People are too afraid to get in.
So how do you does that?
Does that make sense?
(22:52):
Do you know what I'm askinghere, like, how do you get
someone and maybe we'll find outlater with OC from?
I'm playing?
This is fun, but I can't turnthis into a career.
I can't turn this into the nextthing part of my life, because
I'm just too scared.
There's too much at stake.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
That's a great, great question, because there are
several scenes in the book whereOC is in that state, where
she's like in the middle andyou're not quite sure what
happens.
But there are several commonthings that are happening when
she's in that middle state whichI think are helpful to us.
And that is one there arepeople that are supporting her
(23:31):
in her dream.
Two, there are people that arequestioning, doubting and
resisting her dream.
But at the end of the day sheneeds to make the choice Like,
am I going to lean into it?
And I think that there aretimes in our lives where we're
going through questions of doubtand uncertainty.
And the idea that we have playin the book is we're inviting
(23:52):
people to just try what theythink the next step is and to
not get too far into the book.
But in this play section, ositries again and again and there
are elements where she feelsthat she's succeeding.
There are elements where shefeels that she's failing.
And in this chapter we areinviting people to play.
Play is a trying differentthings, different ways to engage
(24:16):
a game, different experiences,to grow and develop, to see if
the dream is coming closer tothem or getting further in and
further away.
Sometimes people get wrapped upin what the fulfillment of a
dream looks like, that they missthe opportunity to experiment,
practice and play.
And that's why the chapter playis so important is because I
(24:39):
believe that every time OC makesan attempt to pursue her dreams
in this playground, she'stesting the dreams reality or
she's testing her dreamsvalidity again and again and
again.
Which gives her more motivationand encouragement also gives
her points of frustration, and Ithink that there are times in
(25:00):
my life and people that I knowwhere we believe that
performance and perfection isthe only way that a dream can be
fulfilled.
And in the chapter play, whatwe're saying is practice and
play are also ways that ourdream can be fulfilled.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
That's right.
And I would add, because,Nathan, in your question I heard
the transition time that wecall liminality right the time
between you can't go back towhat was and you can't yet go
forward to the next, and Ireally believe that most of our
life is spent in that liminalspace.
There's an invitation to thenext point of transition, the
(25:41):
next opportunity to grow andlearn and evolve, and and so in
it it's how to be a good stewardof that liminal space.
And I think about people whosay, like, well, I love
woodworking, but you know, Icould never get paid for that
Right, right.
And then I start hearing abouthow this guy makes furniture and
(26:02):
how he spends hours after work.
You know, doing this amazinglike practicing this craft and
you can see light in his eyeswhen he talks about it, and he
was proud to show me some of thepieces and they were
extraordinary.
They were extraordinary andwhat he's tapping into is even
(26:26):
space where he's carving thewood and planing it and sanding
it and doing whatever you do,and he's using that time to
think about really complexproblems and it's what makes him
really good at his job in IT,because he has that space to do
it.
So oftentimes we think whateverwe're practicing with, there
(26:46):
has to be a direct correlation.
If I'm practicing gymnastics, Ihave to be a gymnast.
Well, I'm six feet tall, that'snever going to happen.
But what would I learn from theactual practice of disciplining
my body, my mind, I mean?
I haven't done a cartwheel foryears, but you can still do it.
Anyway.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
In this transition time that you're speaking to,
nathan.
It's an important part of theprocess of play because I want
to invite people to not be solike egocentric that play is
only for you.
Play is also a time when, byour playing, we're creating an
invitation for others to playwith us.
I believe that sometimes thattransitional period that we're
(27:26):
feeling is the time when othersare joining in, and that's part
of our role is to create a playenvironment where people can
also feel the freedom topractice and experiment right
alongside of us and learn forthemselves.
And sometimes I believe thatthere's a pause in our play
where we may not be making theprogress that we believe is
necessary to fulfill our dream,but we're actually providing the
(27:48):
inspiration to other people tofulfill their dream.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Because play helps us practice levity, where we don't
take ourselves so seriously,but maybe we take whatever we're
working on seriously or thosearound us seriously.
But the practice of levity willalso I don't know maybe
increase our enjoyment orincrease our capacity to build
relationships.
That last I just.
(28:14):
I just have too many thoughtsabout this and I know our time
is coming close.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Well, so maybe this is just a comment, but I took
Parker to see a stand-up comedyshow last weekend.
Of course, you did.
And it was Trevor Noah.
Wow, it was absolutely amazing.
So he had to read Trevor Noah'sbook in school and so I read it
with him.
The guy's got a fascinatingstory.
Yes, oh yeah.
And we've watched all of hisNetflix specials.
(28:40):
And so we were watching thiscomedy and you know we're
laughing and cracking up, andafter we were talking about it
and how it felt like his first20 minutes of a set was just
talking about his day, and itwas so good and so tight.
And he's like how does he dothat?
Go to all these little comedyclubs and they just try out
(29:03):
material.
Sometimes they're reading, likethese jokes they have written
and if it works, if it doesn'twork, they might try it dozens
of times before it ends up likein a show that we saw and he's
like, wow, I think they're goingto turn this into a Netflix
special because there wascameras.
I was like, no, no, buddy,that's not how that works either
.
This is then practice for theNetflix special that's coming
out next year, and so the reasonI'm bringing this up is because
(29:25):
oftentimes, when we see someoneat the height of their game
musicians, gymnasts, comedians,ceos, whatever they've had a
series of playgrounds, a seriesof failures, a series of
opportunities to fine-tune andcraft their art, we'll call it
art, and often we don't get tosee that process.
(29:46):
And so I don't know if this is afinal thought, because I have
more in here, but just that ideaof, like, getting the courage
to step out, you know, showpeople, you're woodworking, to
bring up that example of thatguy like get feedback, get
whatever it is, and maybe thisties into this too but this
whole idea of the map, I think,shows up here for the first time
(30:09):
and I wanted to talk about thatbecause I don't know that I
agree, or maybe I just need moreexplanation that everything
that you need to get there isalready inside of you.
I feel like I'm woefullyinadequate in many areas or need
additional skills or needsomething to get to whatever my
dream might be.
(30:30):
So why?
All of our characters are madeout of maps?
I think we know that at thatpoint in the story right, that's
that comes in chapter one.
So how do you where's myquestion at?
How do you reconcile or come togrips with?
I need practice, I needrefinement, but everything I got
I need is I already got it.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
What I want to say is so you think about, you know
the Olympics Olympics is comingup again, but when I think about
watching the Olympics last year, there was such a sense of I
love the stories that get youhooked, that make you cry, that
get you to cheer for thatathlete even more, because you
(31:15):
know their backstory and youknow all the pain that they went
through and all the rehab andcoming back and what they went
through with their families andwhatever else.
And I think we love thosestories because it endears us to
the characters even more.
And some of those stories arethe description of the maps that
(31:36):
we carry, and so I think andBrian can add to this but when
we say that the answers areinside you, they're in the map,
it's almost like those pre.
What do they call those?
What do they call them?
What's it Exposé?
Speaker 3 (31:54):
Human interest stories.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
So when you watch the human interest story, you are
hearing elements of the map.
I think we take for grantedthat.
Oh yeah, I came from thiscountry and I did this and I
tried that.
I had to fly over here and dothis, and we don't have the
practice of the reflection tocreate the action of like oh
(32:17):
well, yeah, I've already donethat, but not this way, and so
we almost discount ourselves.
And so these human intereststories get us really excited
about the characters and give ussome insight in the maps that
these athletes are created orthat they have like they are
yeah they are elite, these areamazing people that you think
(32:38):
you know I could never reachthat.
But sometimes you hear a storyand you're like, oh yeah, me too
.
I grew up on a dirt road too.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
The role of reflection in playis to give us a chance to ask
ourselves hey, how's this going?
Am I enjoying myself Right?
Is my talent really beingresourced here?
Is the training and learningthat I've gone through actually
helping me, or do I need tomaybe make a two-degree turn or
(33:06):
just bend my experience one wayor the other?
Reflection is important becauseit helps us understand if we're
on the right track or if it'stime to try something new, and
that's often determined by anunderstanding of how our talent
and potential is growing throughthe practice of play.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Well and I would maybe disagree a little bit that
it isn't about this reflection.
It's about it's a simplereflection, like are you
enjoying yourself or not?
Like thumbs up or thumbs down?
Not, you know.
Tell me all the details aboutit.
Like are you in a place ofenjoyment?
Do you lose track of time?
Are you in that strength zone?
And it isn't necessarily play,is just, it's practice in
(33:52):
disguise, so you don'tnecessarily know how to
understand it, but you'rebuilding relationships, you're
building capacity, you'regrowing your skills, you're
learning something new, you'readding to your repertoire and
maybe becoming, hopefully, abetter person as a result.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
To close this out, I want to end on asking you and
this could be a summary ofsomething that we've already
said but what does this chapterreally invite all of us to do,
or what would you like readersto take away specifically from
this chapter?
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Don't be afraid to play and to try something new in
the pursuit of your dream.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Mic drop.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Do you want to add to that, Linda?
Speaker 2 (34:35):
That was very succinct.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
I know.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Okay, so we meet a lot of people that are so
consumed with work that theydon't have a hobby.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Good angle.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
It is a good angle, and so there are times where we
even introduce exercises whenwe're working with teams to get
people laughing to get peopleengaged in a different way, way
to we call it a brain break,sometimes just this opportunity
to do something completelyoutside of the normal in order
to create some kind of catalyticbreakthrough.
(35:08):
And so when you are, you know,when you, when you're with your
child and they're playing like,get on, go down the slide too,
or how do you not take yourselfso seriously, do that?
Speaker 3 (35:24):
I love that.
Well, and that's maybe a goodteaser for part two of this
episode, where we're going toexplore more of the corporate or
team or organization sides ofplay, because I think sometimes
play isn't just in pursuit ofyour dreams.
So I'm going to go play, I'mgoing to go practice being a
stand-up comedian, becausethat's what I want to do.
It is a way to unlock somethingin your current environment
(35:48):
that has nothing to do with itnecessarily.
Well, brian and Linda, thankyou very much.
This is exciting.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Thank you, nathan.
Thank you Nathan.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
And thank you for listening to the Leadership
Vision Podcast, our show helpingyou build positive team culture
.
Be sure to go pick up your copyof Unfolded Lessons in
Transformation from an OrigamiCrane.
You can either click the linkin the show notes or wherever
good books are sold and theaudio book is coming out on or
around August 19th of 2025.
(36:17):
You can also visit us on theweb at
leadershipvisionconsultingcom tolearn more about how to put
some of these practices and playin implement that into your
organization.
Click the link in the shownotes or visit us on the web at
leadershipvisionconsulting, as Isaid, and please share this
with someone that you thinkcould benefit from any of these
ideas.
(36:37):
I'm Nathan Freeberg.
I'm Linda Schubring.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
And I'm Brian Schubring.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
And on behalf of our entire team thanks for listening
Boom Stop.
Sometimes I believe that there's a pause in our play
where we may not be making theprogress that we believe is
necessary to fulfill our dream,but we're actually providing the
inspiration to other people tofulfill their dream.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Because play helps us practice levity, where we don't
take ourselves so seriously,but maybe we take whatever we're
working on seriously or thosearound us seriously we're
working on seriously, or thosearound us seriously, but the
practice of levity will also Idon't know maybe increase our
enjoyment or increase ourcapacity to build relationships.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
That last.
You are listening to theLeadership Vision Podcast, our
show helping you build positiveteam culture.
Our consulting firm has beendoing this work for the past 25
years so that leaders arementally engaged and emotionally
healthy.
To learn more about our work,you can click the link in the
show notes or visit us on theweb at
leadershipvisionconsultingcom.
Hello everyone, my name isNathan Freeberg and today on the
(00:53):
podcast, I get to talk with DrLinda and Brian Schubring,
co-authors of the USA TodayPublishers Weekly and Porchlight
National-selling book UnfoldedLessons in Transformation from
an Origami Crane, and in thisepisode we are going to be
diving into chapter two of thebook, which is all about play.
(01:14):
We'll explore how playgroundsthose safe spaces to experiment,
imagine and fail are essentialto discovering your voice and
pursuing your dreams.
We'll also talk about the riskof staying too long in those
playgrounds and how to use playstrategically.
Now, as you listen, considerthis where is your playground
(01:34):
and what might be holding youback from stepping out of it?
All right, let's dive in.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Brian and Linda.
Hello, Hello.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Excuse me, I was reading your book, oh sorry, how
did you like the introduction?
What our listeners don't knowis that took me about 15 times
to get out.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
It's all about the play of it.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
I was fumbling up, but I think that's a good
kickoff to what we're going tobe talking about today.
So chapter two is all aboutplay, and right now, when we're
recording this, it's the middleof summer and because my kids
aren't in school and becausethey're not in a lot of camps,
my summer is full of play.
It is playing games that wemake up on the spot.
(02:21):
It's playing games like catch.
It's playing things literallyout on the playground.
I don't know if you're familiarwith the ever popular lava
monster.
The rules of this game I haveyet to figure out, because it's
basically the kids just want meto chase them around on the on
the play structure.
But I have a question to kick usoff here.
I know we could get into that,but I realized I could talk
(02:44):
about that too much here.
This chapter on play isfascinating to me and I'm
curious why did you include this?
Or maybe what is maybe anotherway to say?
That is what is kind of thelarger message around play that
we want to talk about.
And then I have you can'treally see this, but I've
highlighted so many things inhere that I want to ask you
about, so maybe say this adifferent way how do you define
(03:07):
play in the context ofleadership or transformation, or
lessons from an origami crane?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yeah, well, very simply, we define play as
practice in disguise, Wheneversomeone is going after a goal or
attempting to do something.
We know that many tries are inplace, but when we started to
put the book together, we weretalking about the elements of
(03:36):
play and the joy and the fun indiscovering things that we like
as humans.
And no matter who you are orwhere you've been, you have some
sort of there's been some sortof play in your background, and
when you start to really thinkabout the things that you loved
(03:56):
when you were young, you canmaybe draw a through line to the
things that you most enjoy now,just the adult version of them
to the things that you mostenjoy now just the adult version
of them.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
One of the reasons why I wanted to include an idea
around play is two reasons.
One, I really believe that whenadults are pursuing a dream of
theirs, they often think thatthere's a very short bridge
between the conception of thedream and the fulfillment of the
(04:26):
dream.
And what I've learned is thatfor dreams to be fulfilled,
there's a long pathway ofpractice and trying and
developing and growing on ourway towards a dream.
And I wanted to somehow capturethat in the allegory.
And one of the reasons why Ichose a playground was because
in raising our daughter, I wouldbring her to playgrounds.
(04:50):
Often Throughout the year.
We'd make up games that wouldinclude other kids and you just
watched how children learn toplay together, how they
challenge themselves, how theychallenge their abilities, they
challenge each other, and therewas something about that playful
nature that I wanted to conveyin the allegory that when we
pursue our dreams, it ofteninvolves other people that are
(05:10):
around us, that are helping usin the journey.
Fulfilling and pursuing ourdreams is often about where we
are, so context is huge andoftentimes the challenges of the
playgrounds in our lives areoften frustrating, but the
playground sometimes doesn'treally change.
The resources are still therefor us to try and try again.
(05:32):
That's why I wanted play to bea main theme is because I want
adults to be invited into theplay process that practice
provides for us.
It can be fun, it can beenjoyable as well as frustrating
, but there are lessons to learnthroughout.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
So for me, I think about times growing up where I
was forced to practice piano and, although I loved part of it,
sometimes the practicing wasjust like oh what a drag Until I
was actually playing and then Iguess I would enjoy it.
But for me it's not like, okay,practice is always hard and
(06:09):
miserable.
I think we wanted to say thatpractice is enjoyable.
It draws life into us and outof us by the ways that we engage
.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
And through play.
Our main character in theallegory is drawing her dream
closer to its reality by playing, and so I think there's this
unique relationship between howwe play and how close we're
progressing or how close ourdream is coming to us.
And so there's this uniqueinteraction, and sometimes I
(06:42):
believe that we ourselves canaccelerate the fulfillment of
our dream by how we play and whowe're playing with.
And there are also times in lifewhere we can de-accelerate the
promise of our dream by choosingnot to play, or choose to play
only in hiding, where otherscan't be involved in and others
(07:03):
can't help.
So both of those elements areclear in this chapter of play.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
I want to talk about the playground for a little bit,
because I think it's a greatmetaphor and I want to maybe
expand the definition over whatwe think about when we think of
a playground.
One of the things I really likedyou talk about in the book here
is how, OC, there's a sense ofsafety on the playground and I
could be with my friends andwe're goofing around doing this
(07:32):
stuff.
When I was researching this, Icame across I think it's a PhD,
stuart Brown.
I don't know if you've heard ofthis guy before.
He has this whole book on play.
It's called Play how it Shapesthe Brain, and he emphasizes
that play isn't just aboutspecific activities but a state
(07:52):
of mind characterized byenjoyment, suspension of
self-consciousness and desirefor continuation.
And so talk a little bit aboutor maybe even describe like
what's a playground that you'vemaybe had in your own lives,
because what I want to do issort of move this out of the
like we're playing dodgeball,we're playing love a monster
(08:13):
into what are the activities orwhat are the spaces or places
where you can play in pursuit ofthat dream on a playground that
is not a playground.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Does that make sense?
Yeah, it certainly does.
One note in the beginning hereis I did reference books and
articles on the psychology ofplay to inform how I was writing
this chapter.
So that theory is clearly inthis chapter.
Second, why playground?
The playground in the book isan actual playground that is two
(08:47):
blocks from our house.
And why that playground isimportant.
First, it is a parametered andprotected playground.
All sides of the playgroundhave something structural that
are defining the actualplayground itself.
Second, there are threedevelopmental areas in the
playground.
There's a playground for thelittles, a playground for a
(09:10):
little bit older children and aplayground for much older
children.
And every one of those smallerplaygrounds has their own
challenges.
That's second, because it'sdevelopmental and yet contained
in the same place.
The third element that'simportant to our playground is
there's safety and shelter inthe playground, and that's
illustrated by the twocottonwood trees.
(09:32):
That safety and shelter, Ibelieve, is necessary for people
to be able to play in a waythat allows them to express
their freedom.
Number four there are elementsto play with in the playground.
You see the neighborhood kidsand parents.
They bring their sand toys,their soccer balls and things
(09:52):
that they play with and theyleave them in the playground for
other people to use asresources.
That's also important for me,and one of the things that's
hidden in the book and wementioned this once in one
sentence is that there's a wayout.
There is a secret gate on oneend of the corner of this
playground.
That is a way out to adifferent part of the world, and
(10:14):
so those elements, I think, arereally important for the reader
, because playgrounds representprotected spaces.
That could be anything, and inthat protected space we have
opportunities for growth anddevelopment.
There are resources there thatare part of the playground and
resources that other peoplebring, and there's a sense of
safety and protection while weplay.
(10:35):
That's just the playground, andnot to mention that the people
in the playground, but that'swhy we think the playground is
so important is because thatidea can be then used to
describe the places and theexperiences that we each have as
individuals, where we've beengiven a chance to play and to
(10:55):
grow and to pursue our dreamswithin the metaphoric
playgrounds of our lives.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
So then, if there's one way out, is that the goal to
get out of the playground?
Or do you just go fromplayground to playground to
playground throughout life, asyou are in pursuit of different
and bigger and more audacious?
Speaker 1 (11:15):
dreams and that my friend is left to the reader.
All right, but it is clear,Nathan, like when you have this
playground there, there is onegate that leads to a greater
world and we never know.
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Well, for me, the idea of the playground really
came to light about I don't know, 25 years ago.
27 years ago, I was in a gradprogram studying administration
in higher education, and in oneof the classes the professor was
talking about the playground ofhigher education and to
understand who the players are.
And so it wasn't just this isstudent life and this is faculty
(11:57):
and this is the admin and theseare the students, but what are
the factors and how do you playtogether on this playground of
higher education?
And I think it's been an imagethat has definitely stuck with
me.
It was a literal playgroundthat the story came to light.
(12:18):
Our story came to light, but Ithink about how much play we've
experienced at Leadership Visionand the ways that we learn as
we're engaged in play.
So why not take that metaphor alittle bit deeper?
We provide the playground andthen it's up to people whether
(12:38):
they'll engage or not.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
I also had an experience in my own life where
I was really, really enjoyingthe playground that I was in.
I was having fun, the peoplethat were around me were super
energizing and creating it.
I just felt like I had made itprofessionally and I was super
excited.
However, there was a person inmy life who really was looking
(13:02):
over my shoulder and had thisvision that I had already
utilized all the resources of myplayground and was basically
saying to me there's the way out.
I think you need to take it.
And there are times in my lifewhere I've really realized that,
even though I feel like I'm,you know, doing really well or
(13:24):
surrounded by great people, thatI may have extinguished really
all that that playground has tooffer.
And there's sometimes thisblindness that we have when we
have really reached ourpotential somewhere and we
wrestle with you know, do I stayand continue to enjoy the
fulfillment of my potential oris there something else out
(13:45):
there that I'm just unaware of?
And there was a great degree offear and uncertainty and
self-doubt when I chose to leave, and I think that there are
many people who can relate tothis story because we are
enjoying something present.
But there could be this likeyou know, voice within us saying
but is there something more?
(14:06):
And I think that we payattention to that.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
This is honestly the main thing that I want to talk
to you about today, because andI'm going to paraphrase this but
there's this idea that if you,if you don't leave the
playground, you're going to getlimited by what's there.
And I can't help but talk aboutmy kids in this moment, because
we are prime playground years.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
You search for the best playgrounds in the world.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Yeah well, I was just going to say we drove down to
Palm Springs a couple of yearsago from Portland and we would
literally stop.
I would do all this research onwhere are the playgrounds like?
What's a big playground, youknow, not just like a little
rinky dink, some swings and aslide.
And so, watching the kids growover the years and experience
more and bigger playgrounds andwhat they can handle and it used
(14:54):
to be I would have to help themacross the monkey bars and now
now they're like doing onehanded jumps, american Ninja
Warrior style.
I'm like, how do you have thatmuch upper body strength?
And last year we had the chanceto go to Europe and we went to
this place called Wow Park,which is like I don't even know
how it's safe.
But this, just this crazyplayground I mean it wasn't even
(15:15):
a playground necessarily, butthis idea of until you try to do
something harder or bigger ormore difficult, you never know.
And so this I mean it'sunderlined and highlighted and
red-starred You're limited bywhat becomes familiar to you.
So my question in all of thisis how do you know when it's
(15:38):
time to get out of theplayground?
Don't tell me it's left up tothe reader.
How do you know when you havepracticed and played enough?
How do you know when you'reready?
Maybe you never know.
How do you you always have, Imean, there's oc's got all this
fear and I was like, just keepdoing it, man, you're a woman
you're gonna, you're gonna yeah,it's gonna be be hard, you're
going to, you're going to fail,you're going to flop.
(16:00):
I don't remember my exactquestion in there, but just that
idea of like when yourplayground is is, how do you
know when it's limited to you,limiting you, versus like I'm
really good at what I'm doingand I want to keep doing it
because I'm really good Doesthat does yes.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
The first question to ask is are you growing?
Are you growing If you aretrying new things, if you are
pushing yourself in new ways?
That's one thing.
We meet many people who justget so comfortable that there's
no surprise anymore.
(16:36):
There's no wonder, there's noexcitement.
There is almost a like well,this is just where I am.
That could be a good indicator.
You're ready for something new,or something new introduced in
that playground?
But the key question is are yougrowing?
(16:56):
Have you learned the lessonsthat this stage has taught you?
Yeah, and sometimes people staytoo long and they get stuck.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Linda's dead on.
Are you growing?
Two ways to know if you are.
To know if you're growingwithin your playground, is there
somewhere else?
Because, nathan, your questionwas is it time to leave?
Where's their potential?
Like, when do I know it's timeto go?
We had this clearly illustratedwithin the book because when oc
(17:27):
starts to play, she's playing byherself, isolated behind the
cottonwood trees, where no onecan see her, and one of our
characters, turtle, leads her tothe first playground, or the
youngest playground.
That scene illustrates thatthere are people around you that
(17:48):
can lead you to the next placesof growth if you're willing to
follow them.
That's a key indicator for usis who is around us that can
help us grow and also lead us tothe place where there is growth
.
There's another section in thiswhere the animals leave Oss, or
the characters leave Ossi andgo to another part of the
(18:10):
playground to play without her,which happens to be the next
stage of development, and she'sleft behind.
So where are?
So?
Another indication to us is, aswe look around in our
metaphoric playgrounds, arethere places that we see people
with you know that are a littlebit older or more experienced,
have different kinds of talent,where they're growing in the
(18:30):
expression of that, and that maybe the invitation for us to go
where they are, because that isalso an indication of growth.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Because I think, nathan, in one of the
definitions that you talkedabout with play was just the you
kind of lose track of selfalmost, and you think about
watching young children play andthey think that you can't hear
them as they're sing-songing andpretending to make meals and
tea out of sand and cookies, andwhatever else, and there's just
(18:59):
such that unawareness of theoutside world and this
cultivation of an imaginationthat is unmatched.
You can't plan for it, preparefor it.
You almost just drop a child inand give them some freedom, and
that's what happens, and that'swhat our main character is
doing behind the cottonwoodtrees.
(19:21):
And when she is discovered, Ithink there was a element of
surprise because she didn'trealize that and you know yeah,
she didn't realize that anyoneelse would wanna.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Yeah, she's embarrassed.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
She's embarrassed like oh no oh, I found out like
now, now you've it.
That's another point of growth.
So she almost in some waysdecided to fake it until she
made it right.
So like yeah, like this is agame, so join in.
And once again, it's thiselement of growth, element of
(19:53):
learning new things, of not justgetting comfortable, because I
think places of comfort are theplaces that can stifle us the
most.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
And that awareness of comfort is part of what we're
also asking people to consideris their own self-awareness,
like self-awareness of askingyourself the question am I
comfortable?
Am I being challenged?
Are the people around megrowing Like?
Looking around to the peoplethat are around you, do they
share the same experiences, dothey share similar dreams?
Are they progressing andgrowing in similar ways?
(20:24):
Or are you the one that may bethe youngest one to show up or
maybe, like you're, the oldestand most experienced one to
remain?
These are all self-awarenessquestions that we have connected
to this idea of play, becausesometimes when we play, we are
the most experienced one who'splaying.
That's one level ofself-awareness, and sometimes in
(20:45):
play, when we arrive, werealize that we're the youngest
or the least experienced, butwe're ready, but we're ready for
that next piece.
And so it's self-awareness,awareness of those around you.
And, third, aware of the voicesof wisdom and insight and truth
that are speaking to you, thatare sometimes asking the right
(21:07):
questions like hmm, well, maybeyou are ready.
Have you ever considered this?
Have you ever considered that?
And those voices are also waysto inspire us to move to
different parts of theplayground, because we're ready
for that kind of growth and playis important because it gives
us practice to fulfill ourpotential.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
And I can't help to think of Joseph Campbell's
hero's journey in this yes yes,you know, if you're not familiar
with that, it's a very famousmodel.
I mean, every superhero movie,luke Skywalker, like so many
characters, it's like there'sthis person who's comfortable.
They're met with this challengeto accept the call.
(21:46):
Usually there's some sort ofwise mentor, and then they have
to decide if they're going torise to the occasion, so to
speak.
That's right.
What I'm thinking about now isgoing back to that first episode
on, or we're talking aboutdreams is how do you know and
I'm going to figure out how tophrase this so you're in this
playground, you're playing, butyou're terrified to tell anyone
(22:09):
about your dream.
You're terrified of trying it,because who are you to do
something?
This is silly.
You have a family that'sdependent on your income.
You can't make that leap.
You can't exit the playground.
What are?
I don't know if you can sharestories, like specific stories
of you, know people or evenyourself, of how do you take
(22:31):
that leap?
Because I also came across thistransitions model from William
Bridges, where it talks aboutlike what's so terrifying is
this in between place whereyou've like you yeah, you can't
quite, you haven't arrived,you're still here, and so it's
just.
People are too afraid to get in.
So how do you does that?
Does that make sense?
(22:52):
Do you know what I'm askinghere, like, how do you get
someone and maybe we'll find outlater with OC from?
I'm playing?
This is fun, but I can't turnthis into a career.
I can't turn this into the nextthing part of my life, because
I'm just too scared.
There's too much at stake.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
That's a great, great question, because there are
several scenes in the book whereOC is in that state, where
she's like in the middle andyou're not quite sure what
happens.
But there are several commonthings that are happening when
she's in that middle state whichI think are helpful to us.
And that is one there arepeople that are supporting her
(23:31):
in her dream.
Two, there are people that arequestioning, doubting and
resisting her dream.
But at the end of the day sheneeds to make the choice Like,
am I going to lean into it?
And I think that there aretimes in our lives where we're
going through questions of doubtand uncertainty.
And the idea that we have playin the book is we're inviting
(23:52):
people to just try what theythink the next step is and to
not get too far into the book.
But in this play section, ositries again and again and there
are elements where she feelsthat she's succeeding.
There are elements where shefeels that she's failing.
And in this chapter we areinviting people to play.
Play is a trying differentthings, different ways to engage
(24:16):
a game, different experiences,to grow and develop, to see if
the dream is coming closer tothem or getting further in and
further away.
Sometimes people get wrapped upin what the fulfillment of a
dream looks like, that they missthe opportunity to experiment,
practice and play.
And that's why the chapter playis so important is because I
(24:39):
believe that every time OC makesan attempt to pursue her dreams
in this playground, she'stesting the dreams reality or
she's testing her dreamsvalidity again and again and
again.
Which gives her more motivationand encouragement also gives
her points of frustration, and Ithink that there are times in
(25:00):
my life and people that I knowwhere we believe that
performance and perfection isthe only way that a dream can be
fulfilled.
And in the chapter play, whatwe're saying is practice and
play are also ways that ourdream can be fulfilled.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
That's right.
And I would add, because,Nathan, in your question I heard
the transition time that wecall liminality right the time
between you can't go back towhat was and you can't yet go
forward to the next, and Ireally believe that most of our
life is spent in that liminalspace.
There's an invitation to thenext point of transition, the
(25:41):
next opportunity to grow andlearn and evolve, and and so in
it it's how to be a good stewardof that liminal space.
And I think about people whosay, like, well, I love
woodworking, but you know, Icould never get paid for that
Right, right.
And then I start hearing abouthow this guy makes furniture and
(26:02):
how he spends hours after work.
You know, doing this amazinglike practicing this craft and
you can see light in his eyeswhen he talks about it, and he
was proud to show me some of thepieces and they were
extraordinary.
They were extraordinary andwhat he's tapping into is even
(26:26):
space where he's carving thewood and planing it and sanding
it and doing whatever you do,and he's using that time to
think about really complexproblems and it's what makes him
really good at his job in IT,because he has that space to do
it.
So oftentimes we think whateverwe're practicing with, there
(26:46):
has to be a direct correlation.
If I'm practicing gymnastics, Ihave to be a gymnast.
Well, I'm six feet tall, that'snever going to happen.
But what would I learn from theactual practice of disciplining
my body, my mind, I mean?
I haven't done a cartwheel foryears, but you can still do it.
Anyway.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
In this transition time that you're speaking to,
nathan.
It's an important part of theprocess of play because I want
to invite people to not be solike egocentric that play is
only for you.
Play is also a time when, byour playing, we're creating an
invitation for others to playwith us.
I believe that sometimes thattransitional period that we're
(27:26):
feeling is the time when othersare joining in, and that's part
of our role is to create a playenvironment where people can
also feel the freedom topractice and experiment right
alongside of us and learn forthemselves.
And sometimes I believe thatthere's a pause in our play
where we may not be making theprogress that we believe is
necessary to fulfill our dream,but we're actually providing the
(27:48):
inspiration to other people tofulfill their dream.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Because play helps us practice levity, where we don't
take ourselves so seriously,but maybe we take whatever we're
working on seriously or thosearound us seriously.
But the practice of levity willalso I don't know maybe
increase our enjoyment orincrease our capacity to build
relationships.
That last I just.
(28:14):
I just have too many thoughtsabout this and I know our time
is coming close.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Well, so maybe this is just a comment, but I took
Parker to see a stand-up comedyshow last weekend.
Of course, you did.
And it was Trevor Noah.
Wow, it was absolutely amazing.
So he had to read Trevor Noah'sbook in school and so I read it
with him.
The guy's got a fascinatingstory.
Yes, oh yeah.
And we've watched all of hisNetflix specials.
(28:40):
And so we were watching thiscomedy and you know we're
laughing and cracking up, andafter we were talking about it
and how it felt like his first20 minutes of a set was just
talking about his day, and itwas so good and so tight.
And he's like how does he dothat?
Go to all these little comedyclubs and they just try out
(29:03):
material.
Sometimes they're reading, likethese jokes they have written
and if it works, if it doesn'twork, they might try it dozens
of times before it ends up likein a show that we saw and he's
like, wow, I think they're goingto turn this into a Netflix
special because there wascameras.
I was like, no, no, buddy,that's not how that works either
.
This is then practice for theNetflix special that's coming
out next year, and so the reasonI'm bringing this up is because
(29:25):
oftentimes, when we see someoneat the height of their game
musicians, gymnasts, comedians,ceos, whatever they've had a
series of playgrounds, a seriesof failures, a series of
opportunities to fine-tune andcraft their art, we'll call it
art, and often we don't get tosee that process.
(29:46):
And so I don't know if this is afinal thought, because I have
more in here, but just that ideaof, like, getting the courage
to step out, you know, showpeople, you're woodworking, to
bring up that example of thatguy like get feedback, get
whatever it is, and maybe thisties into this too but this
whole idea of the map, I think,shows up here for the first time
(30:09):
and I wanted to talk about thatbecause I don't know that I
agree, or maybe I just need moreexplanation that everything
that you need to get there isalready inside of you.
I feel like I'm woefullyinadequate in many areas or need
additional skills or needsomething to get to whatever my
dream might be.
(30:30):
So why?
All of our characters are madeout of maps?
I think we know that at thatpoint in the story right, that's
that comes in chapter one.
So how do you where's myquestion at?
How do you reconcile or come togrips with?
I need practice, I needrefinement, but everything I got
I need is I already got it.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
What I want to say is so you think about, you know
the Olympics Olympics is comingup again, but when I think about
watching the Olympics last year, there was such a sense of I
love the stories that get youhooked, that make you cry, that
get you to cheer for thatathlete even more, because you
(31:15):
know their backstory and youknow all the pain that they went
through and all the rehab andcoming back and what they went
through with their families andwhatever else.
And I think we love thosestories because it endears us to
the characters even more.
And some of those stories arethe description of the maps that
(31:36):
we carry, and so I think andBrian can add to this but when
we say that the answers areinside you, they're in the map,
it's almost like those pre.
What do they call those?
What do they call them?
What's it Exposé?
Speaker 3 (31:54):
Human interest stories.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
So when you watch the human interest story, you are
hearing elements of the map.
I think we take for grantedthat.
Oh yeah, I came from thiscountry and I did this and I
tried that.
I had to fly over here and dothis, and we don't have the
practice of the reflection tocreate the action of like oh
(32:17):
well, yeah, I've already donethat, but not this way, and so
we almost discount ourselves.
And so these human intereststories get us really excited
about the characters and give ussome insight in the maps that
these athletes are created orthat they have like they are
yeah they are elite, these areamazing people that you think
(32:38):
you know I could never reachthat.
But sometimes you hear a storyand you're like, oh yeah, me too
.
I grew up on a dirt road too.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
The role of reflection in playis to give us a chance to ask
ourselves hey, how's this going?
Am I enjoying myself Right?
Is my talent really beingresourced here?
Is the training and learningthat I've gone through actually
helping me, or do I need tomaybe make a two-degree turn or
(33:06):
just bend my experience one wayor the other?
Reflection is important becauseit helps us understand if we're
on the right track or if it'stime to try something new, and
that's often determined by anunderstanding of how our talent
and potential is growing throughthe practice of play.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Well and I would maybe disagree a little bit that
it isn't about this reflection.
It's about it's a simplereflection, like are you
enjoying yourself or not?
Like thumbs up or thumbs down?
Not, you know.
Tell me all the details aboutit.
Like are you in a place ofenjoyment?
Do you lose track of time?
Are you in that strength zone?
And it isn't necessarily play,is just, it's practice in
(33:52):
disguise, so you don'tnecessarily know how to
understand it, but you'rebuilding relationships, you're
building capacity, you'regrowing your skills, you're
learning something new, you'readding to your repertoire and
maybe becoming, hopefully, abetter person as a result.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
To close this out, I want to end on asking you and
this could be a summary ofsomething that we've already
said but what does this chapterreally invite all of us to do,
or what would you like readersto take away specifically from
this chapter?
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Don't be afraid to play and to try something new in
the pursuit of your dream.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Mic drop.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Do you want to add to that, Linda?
Speaker 2 (34:35):
That was very succinct.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
I know.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Okay, so we meet a lot of people that are so
consumed with work that theydon't have a hobby.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Good angle.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
It is a good angle, and so there are times where we
even introduce exercises whenwe're working with teams to get
people laughing to get peopleengaged in a different way, way
to we call it a brain break,sometimes just this opportunity
to do something completelyoutside of the normal in order
to create some kind of catalyticbreakthrough.
(35:08):
And so when you are, you know,when you, when you're with your
child and they're playing like,get on, go down the slide too,
or how do you not take yourselfso seriously, do that?
Speaker 3 (35:24):
I love that.
Well, and that's maybe a goodteaser for part two of this
episode, where we're going toexplore more of the corporate or
team or organization sides ofplay, because I think sometimes
play isn't just in pursuit ofyour dreams.
So I'm going to go play, I'mgoing to go practice being a
stand-up comedian, becausethat's what I want to do.
It is a way to unlock somethingin your current environment
(35:48):
that has nothing to do with itnecessarily.
Well, brian and Linda, thankyou very much.
This is exciting.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Thank you, nathan.
Thank you Nathan.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
And thank you for listening to the Leadership
Vision Podcast, our show helpingyou build positive team culture
.
Be sure to go pick up your copyof Unfolded Lessons in
Transformation from an OrigamiCrane.
You can either click the linkin the show notes or wherever
good books are sold and theaudio book is coming out on or
around August 19th of 2025.
(36:17):
You can also visit us on theweb at
leadershipvisionconsultingcom tolearn more about how to put
some of these practices and playin implement that into your
organization.
Click the link in the shownotes or visit us on the web at
leadershipvisionconsulting, as Isaid, and please share this
with someone that you thinkcould benefit from any of these
ideas.
(36:37):
I'm Nathan Freeberg.
I'm Linda Schubring.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
And I'm Brian Schubring.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
And on behalf of our entire team thanks for listening
Boom Stop.
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