Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I think the dreams
that actually come true are
those that step forward and try,and so the forward momentum is
not just because I kept thinkingabout it and I just kept
dreaming about it, but I took itto the playground and made it
happen is that intersectionwhere people need to stop and
(00:25):
really consider that middleground of going from the origin
story of your dream to thefulfillment of the dream.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
This try chapter
really helps people embrace that
messy middle that we allexperience and that's often the
place where people give up orthey lose their direction, or
the voices of doubt and despairovertake and it's kind of
stopped.
So that's why this chapter isimportant.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
You are listening to
the Leadership Vision Podcast,
our show helping you buildpositive team culture.
Our consulting firm has beendoing this work for the past 25
years so that leaders arementally engaged and emotionally
healthy.
To learn more about our work,you can click the link in the
show notes or visit us on theweb at
leadershipvisionconsultingcom.
Hello everyone, my name isNathan Freeberg and in this
(01:14):
episode of the Leadership VisionPodcast, we're exploring what
it really means to try, not justonce, but over and over again,
as a posture of learning, growthand courage.
Based on chapter three ofUnfolded Lessons in
Transformation from an OrigamiCrane.
We're talking with Dr Linda andBrian Schubring about how
(01:34):
trying is not a measure ofsuccess or failure, but a
necessary step in becoming whowe're meant to be.
Our dreams are the map, play isthe practice and trying is how
we begin to walk the path.
Today we'll unpack why tryingmatters, how to handle the doubt
of others and why sometimes wehave to refold ourselves into a
new shape to keep going.
(01:56):
Brian and Linda, welcome backto the Leadership Vision Podcast
.
I was going to hold up our bookhere but I don't have the cover
on it, because I took it on atrip so that I could take
pictures of it and just thatpart of it, but anyway.
(02:16):
So here's, you can see it inthe spine here.
This is the book of Unfolded.
I was trying so hard to usethis as a visual prop, but I
failed, so but that doesn'tmatter, try again.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Check the link in the
show notes where you try again,
it doesn't matter.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
We're talking about
chapter three today, and chapter
three, I feel, was the chapterthat how do I say this when I
live most of my life.
You try this.
That doesn't work.
You try this that doesn't work,you try this.
Oh, that kind of worked.
Let's maybe adjust that andadapt that High level.
Before we get down into some ofour talking points here, why is
(02:55):
this chapter in the book at all?
Speaker 1 (02:59):
At all.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Wow, that sounds like
fighting words, like I mean,
you know, just yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Yeah, why is it there
?
Well, you know, the firstchapter is dream.
It starts with that, theunlocking your imagination,
beginning to think about thekind of dreams that you were
living.
And then the next chapter isplay, and that was practice in
disguise.
So we talked at length aboutwhat play looks like and it's
(03:27):
kind of the lose track of timeand enjoying and practicing
chapter, the fun chapter, right.
And the third chapter is try,and that is practice with
intention.
And if you think of play aspractice in disguise, where try
is more intentional practice, Ilike the research from Keegan
(03:52):
and Leahy that talk about andeveryone in culture and they
talk about deliberate practiceare at play here.
In the chapter called Try,which is practicing with
intention, you have a little bitmore direction, a little bit
more motivation, and it's notjust so that we're having fun,
but you're really trying to takesteps to the actual flight.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
So is there an
element where you go into trying
?
You said it's with intention,so you're not just.
You know well, let me back up.
Are you still on the playground?
Speaker 1 (04:28):
to use our analogy
here, you're still on the
playground.
Yes, you're still on theplayground.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
The chapter try is
really important in the book
because this is the arc of thestory that is maybe considered
the flyover states, when you'retalking to someone about how
they achieve their dreams.
Because, oftentimes people talkabout how they had this amazing
dream and how they started tolike really go for their dream
(04:53):
and then all of a sudden they'rewherever the dream was supposed
to end and they forget to tellthe story of what happens in the
messy and mysterious andmeaningful middle.
And I really believe that thechapter tri is that intersection
where people need to stop andreally consider that middle
ground of going from the originstory of your dream to the
(05:17):
fulfillment of the dream.
This tri chapter really helpspeople embrace that messy middle
that we all experience andthat's often the place where
people give up or they losetheir direction or the voices of
doubt and despair overtake andthey just kind of stop.
So that's why this chapter isimportant.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
From my perspective,
as we were writing this chapter
and I was, as I was thinkingabout try and all the ways that
we practice it's when practicegets real, when it's not just
messing around on the keyboard,but it is.
Oh, you are preparing for youraudition, you are preparing for
something a little bit moremeaningful.
(05:59):
This is when it starts to getreal.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Huh, Linda, I like
what you said about.
I forget exactly what you said,but something about like play
with purpose or like it'sgetting real it feels like we've
gone intentional.
It feels like we've gone from.
I have this dream to do thisthing.
I mean you're messing around,you're kind of doing this stuff.
And then this tri-chapter.
You know it starts with.
Several seasons have passed, sooc has been playing for quite a
(06:25):
while, correct.
But now this tri chapter, itgets real, it gets.
Maybe there's some, some stakes, there's something on the line
how do we yeah?
yeah, go well.
I'll just say, how do we getpeople to that point or
realizing that you know thefirst time that it's real and
there's something on the line?
(06:45):
It might not go well, and sodon't give up and like all that.
Like what's that transitionpoint for folks?
Because I think I mean correctme if I'm wrong, but it feels
like chapter three is where thedream can either die because
you're like, ah, it's too hard,or where, like you know, it
blossoms because you're like, ah, it's too hard, or where, like
(07:08):
you know, it blossoms when youthink of the like.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
That flywheel analogy
like this is just getting the
momentum going.
Yeah, that's what thischapter's about.
It's like everything's in place, all the right components are
there.
I think that there are manypeople that have done, you know,
all the like.
They've done the necessary workto bring them to where they are
and now it's getting real.
Like now, the pressure is moreintense, you're closer to the
(07:32):
opportunity and you not only seewith more clarity what your
dream could be, you also beginto see some of the obstacles
that are getting in the waydifferently than you did before.
Yeah, because, side note, likebefore now, the cottonwood trees
weren't an obstacle, they'rejust in the background.
Now the cottonwood trees becomea player.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
In the way.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
They're in the way it
runs into them yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
And it's through the
branches of the trees that OC
sees the plane.
So it's like when you'regetting closer to the
fulfillment of the dream,sometimes you're seeing through
the challenges where beforethere were obstacles, and now
it's like, oh, I can see the waythere.
Now you look at it differently.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
I like to think of
this chapter as the one that's
in living color, as the onethat's in living color, the one
where all your senses areamplified, where there is an
intensity.
To all the shapes and shadowsthere is an intensity to the
voices that are affirming andencouraging, and there is an
(08:40):
intensity to the shame, doubt,judgment, criticism, negativity.
I might as well just pick up mytoys and go home.
And when you are about to dosomething meaningful, I mean
still when I take the stage,there is still a heartbeat that
I can see.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I can see it too.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
That I in you or me.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I can see it um that
I in you or me.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
I can see in your
face where it's just, and I've
come to terms with this is thisbig heartbeat, is my body
getting ready for something Ireally care about?
Uh, that I'm stepping closer tomy dream, that I'm stepping
closer to extending the messageof how we have wrestled with and
(09:26):
learned about truetransformation.
And so when I think about that,when I think about the ways
that I try and I continue tohone my craft and practice, my
facilitation and dial in theways that I listen to people,
it's almost like all my sensesare electric.
(09:47):
All my senses are electric.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
You're resonating
with this Yep, and when that's
happening, it's because theenvironment has changed or the
environment is evolving and thepeople that you're working with
are different, like your sensesare heightened, because there's
something happening not onlywithin you in anticipation of
this next step in pursuit ofyour dream, but there's also
something happening around youthat's also changing when the
opportunity to try begins tobecome closer to who we are and
(10:14):
the opportunity is gettingcloser.
I think that there is thisawareness, like now's my moment,
like something is about tochange and there's physiological
reactions that are happeningwhen try is available to us.
And there's physiologicalreactions that are happening
when try is available to us.
There's emotional realities,there's like an intellectual
focusing that's happening.
So there's so many things thatare happening to us as human
beings when this moment of tryis presenting itself, that we we
(10:37):
we do pay attention in adifferent way.
The threats that were around us,you know, two months ago,
weren't necessarily that big ofa deal, but now that we're in
the bigger playground, whenthere's more at stake and the
heights are higher and thechallenges are greater, things
just look differently now, andthat's one of the things to pay
attention to is that when we arein pursuit of the dream.
(11:00):
There's the fun, imaginativepart of the beginning dream.
There's the fun, imaginativepart of the beginning.
But now, when it becomes closerto really testing the validity
and legitimacy of your dream,that testing is going to be a
proving ground on where you areexcelling and where you are not
yeah, well, and there's a thedoubt and like self-judgment
(11:23):
really creeps in.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
I mean there's I
forget exactly what she says,
you know just crashing theground, second guessing herself
Like how do you you, me, all ofus get past that?
Because you have this dreamthat's theoretical, you're
playing without stakes and allof a sudden there's some skin in
the game when we're actuallytrying.
And how do you help people getpast?
(11:46):
Like, oh my gosh, what a dumbdream.
Why did I even think this?
I fell, I crashed, I hit a tree, I whatever.
How do you get past that?
Like, how do you prevent thatinternalization of those loud,
cranky um fox voices?
Speaker 2 (12:03):
nathan, the, the
self-doubt and shame, I think,
are indications that we'remaking progress.
What I think?
That the doubt and the shameand the questions we have of
ourselves are a sign that we'remaking progress, because one of
the things that we've writteninto the book is when OC begins
to question, the first thingshe's questioning is her shape,
(12:27):
so it isn't necessarily thevoices around her.
She's getting closer to herdream and she's realizing wait,
maybe the shape that I'm inisn't going to get me to where
I'm going.
So something about how she'sshowing up that's being inspired
by her vision, because she seesthe plains through the trees
she's realized that her shapemay not be what is there.
(12:47):
And that level of self-doubt wasreflective and then reinforced
by the voices that were aroundher.
And that's a sign that she'smaking progress, because she's
learning something.
She's learning the reality thatthe shape that she's in today
isn't the shape that's going tomake her find her way.
There's something that's goingto have to happen.
And that awareness of themessaging and the self-doubt and
(13:10):
the external criticism is asign that we're about to change
again, like there's somethingthat's going to happen.
It's the prelude to the nextiteration of our dream.
Nathan, I see you squirming.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
I mean it's human.
I'm just thinking of the.
You know the voices inside yourhead telling you that you're no
good, that you're, you knowgarbage.
And then you're saying oh,that's a good thing, that means
you're making progress.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Because she asked?
Because in that moment shebegins to ask for help.
Now that help may not bedirected at anyone in particular
, but she just begins to ask forhelp from the people around her
.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Because I think that
the tri-chapter there's almost a
paintbrush that you could brushimposter syndrome.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Oh, I mean yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Brush imposter
syndrome, like, oh like.
Why am I doing this?
I don't know if I can andwhenever a leader quickly
disqualifies themselves and says, like it's just imposter
syndrome.
I just want to look at them andsay, no, it's try, You're just
trying.
You're trying and you're awarethat either you need a little
bit more skill, a little bitmore practice, or you need the
(14:27):
help of others in order to getthere.
That you do not have what isinside you to be able to bring
you to the next step, but ratherimposter syndrome is this
invitation to lean in a littlebit more to ask for help and to
realize that you have somethingbeautiful to offer and you don't
have to offer everything.
(14:48):
You don't have to be that, beall, end all.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
And in the midst of
all this, trying is a great
opportunity for self-compassionand self-acceptance.
Because in the midst of all ofthis, in the beginning of this
chapter, you have this momentwhen Owl says to OC be gentle to
yourself.
Even before the chapter isreally unfolded at all, you get
(15:11):
this immediate check of doubtand uncertainty are arising,
self-criticism is there and youhave this moment of no wait.
Just be gentle.
Be gentle and don't bejudgmental.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
I was in a coaching
session with a leader today, a
leader who, in a lot of ways,kind of rose pretty quickly just
because she is so wildlytalented.
And sometimes, when you risequickly, there's this sense of
like well, you're too young,like how did you get here to
this point?
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Good point.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
And my message to her
and I repeated it several times
was you deserve this.
So, remember like you deserveit.
You are deserving of thisopportunity to play in this
playground, and it takes avillage to quiet the voices that
prevent us from really trying.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
It takes a village to
quiet the voices, right?
So how do you find a villagethat you can be vulnerable with,
to say this is my dream, I'mtrying something, it's not going
perfectly.
You're telling me, that's agood thing.
I feel like I didn't do a goodjob, but you're saying, oh,
(16:25):
that's a good thing.
How feel like I didn't do agood job but you're saying, oh,
that's a good thing.
How do you then know who toreach out to for help, where to
reach out to for help?
How do you not just questionyour whole dream from the get-go
?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Good question, nathan
, because that's also in the
book when the questioning begins.
There's also a need fordiscerning, because when OC is
asking for help in her reshaping, there are several voices that
come to her side and she has todiscern who's going to help.
(17:01):
And at that moment you may notknow the voices that will be
helpful and the voices that willbe hurtful.
But it's in the process ofpursuing the dream, it's in the
process of making progress thatsometimes those friendships are
tested and tried, and so too arethe voices.
And in the unfolding processthat's happening through trying,
(17:21):
like the trying to fly, thereshaping that's happening
during the chapter is all inattention, in attention to the
different voices that are there.
And what I I think happens tous as people is that when we
really begin to make somemovement in progress towards a
goal and objective, towards adream, there are some people
that we're going to rely on andask for help and there are
(17:44):
others that we're just going tobe like.
I'm not sure if that voice ishelpful anymore, which doesn't
mean that they're a bad person.
It could just be the wrongtiming.
That's perfectly okay andthat's in this chapter.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
I think about your
question, nathan, about
vulnerability, and I think justto try is being vulnerable, just
to put yourself out there isbeing vulnerable.
And I think sometimes there arepeople that are so exuberant to
help us with our dreams, to helpus achieve that, almost lay
(18:18):
everything out on a platter forus, and sometimes, in their
exuberance, they are almost alawnmower.
Sometimes, in their exuberance,they are almost a lawnmower and
they are mowing down everyopportunity for you to learn,
grow, try and be better.
And so I think about whenyou're helping someone else in
(18:51):
their season of try.
How do you not want that dreammore than they do, to allow the
person with the dream to reallypursue?
Now there's a part in thechapter where spoiler alert but
it doesn't go so well.
It doesn't go so well, and whathappens is the characters give
OC some space.
They give her some space.
That's when the voice of wisdomcomes in.
That's when she can almost hearherself in a different way.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
She can decide is she
, you know, gonna, you know,
connect in a different way, oror lean forward I mean there's a
question here because in theprocess of trying, we are going
through our own adaptations onreshaping, showing up
differently and those types ofchanges are, you know, some
(19:34):
people just are afraid that youknow it it might hurt, like in
in quotes, like how can we askthat?
Cause that's important.
And then the, the jumpstart, I,I.
What's important for me is thatsometimes we, we think we're at
the end and and we skip somesteps and we think we're there
and and so with the one cranewing, one plane wing, or maybe
(19:56):
it's just important to mebecause, like in my story, like
how many false starts have I hadbecause I thought I was ready
yeah, when hurting, no, doesn'thurt, but it's just
uncomfortable.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
It's like also
defining what that means, or
understanding, like what arewhat's pain versus discomfort
and what's your comfort levelwith either of those things.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Yeah, cause I think
that when YC asked the question,
I think that there aresometimes when others think that
we're pain and we're not,because we maybe are just jacked
up on endorphins, because we'repursuing our dream.
It's not painful for us, butothers may perceive it and we're
really in our flow or in ourzone.
But the invitation, I think inthis moment is that there are
(20:41):
going to be changes that all ofus go through in the pursuit of
our dream and some are just tobe uncomfortable.
And that doesn't mean that thedream is wrong.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
It's part of the
process well, that's where the
growth happens.
Yeah, yeah, right, if you, ifyou nailed it every time, that
would be boring.
Well, it's also just notrealistic I mean you know, it's
just good editing.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
It's just not, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, it's just not uh,you know, I think baseball is
such an interesting analogy here, because you fail seven times
out of 10 and you're consideredsuccessful.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
That's successful
yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
That's success.
Well, brian, linda, one thing Iwant to ask you that we sort of
talked about in the episode wedid on folding was there's a
spot in this chapter where Ithink Osi's on Golden's back
running towards a tree.
It's a plane and it's just likewhat is she tried?
(21:49):
What like?
What does that have to do withthis idea of trying Like?
Speaker 2 (21:51):
that seems like
uncomfortable and painful and
just like, quit, now it is allthose things, and one of the
things that also is is a alesson to us that many times
people believe that they haveall the answers in place, that
their dream is really close, andin reality they're only halfway
there.
When you think about the shapeof OC, like you said, one plane
(22:12):
wing, one crane wing, and thisnew idea let's get on Golden's
back, and that's going to helpme do this.
How many of us try somethingnew, a new innovation?
We think we're there, we'resuper excited, only to realize
that we're right in the middle.
And I think it's that pointwhere people get excited around
you and they're encouraging youto go.
(22:33):
You tend to listen to them more,yet there are people there that
are questioning and you kind ofignore them, you kind of go for
it, and I think that in thismoment, we can all relate to
that euphoric, instantaneoussuccess that's not sustainable,
that ends with some bruises andbumps along the way, and then we
realize that yep, the dream isstill alive.
(22:55):
I may not have achieved exactly.
What I want is that tippingpoint where the story then
changes and there's a new visionfor how this dream is going to
become a reality.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Because in this
chapter, tri, I kind of see
elements of a dress rehearsal,elements of a practice that
maybe is like a scrimmage, thatis actually preparing you for
the game, where you are almostembodying some of the different
pieces, not just the mental gameof preparing in your mind, but
(23:36):
actually the physical game oftrying.
And what happens there,especially in the context of
community, is that you try a fewthings and what happens is
other people observe and otherpeople have some perception
they're challenging you.
Know what your intentions are.
Did you try to do that?
(23:56):
That was really good?
Whoa, that was a little bit toomuch.
And what happens is sometimescharacters in our story help us
see our identity a little bitmore clearly.
So it's not just like oh, itwas like one plain wing, one
origami wing, and we'll figurethis out.
It was the small elements, likeYC, young Crane looking at OC
(24:23):
and saying, sister, you're madeof a map, as the wing was being
unfolded a bit, and it wasalmost like, yeah, great, thanks
, thanks for being a mirror,thanks for being a mirror to me.
I don't know how to integratethat right now because I'm in
the middle of practicing withintention, but being able to
(24:47):
reflect on the voices that speakto us in who we are, speak to
us about who we are and call usinto that next stage and
realizing, like well, that someof your comments are noise and
some of your comments arenecessary and some of your
comments are necessary, and howdo I listen to the both of them
and use it to improve myperformance?
Speaker 3 (25:10):
That's good.
To wrap things up, I'mwondering, if you could, I want
to read a short paragraph abouttrying and just get your hot
takes on it.
So trying isn't about gettingit right.
It's about movement, abouttrusting that every step, even
the wobbly, painful ones, leadsus closer to our true shape.
What we try, how we try and whowe become in the process is the
(25:32):
real story.
When we look at our map andlisten to its quiet guidance,
we'll find the courage to tryagain, this time with more
clarity and more kindness.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
That's good Thoughts,
the courage to try again.
Yeah, that's what I think.
That's what stands out to me inthis paragraph, because, as
you're turning the pages of thechapter, try I feel you're
watching the courage of OC.
Build and build, and build.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
And Nathan, as you
were reading it, I went a little
bit in a different direction, Iguess, and I was hearing this
like where do you put theemphasis in?
Why try?
So if you say something like,well, why try, or why try, or
why try, or why try, and I thinkthat there are times where you
(26:30):
almost have to have a sit downconversation with yourself or
look at yourself in the mirrorand tell yourself that the dream
is alive within you.
You have been practicing, youhave been taking steps towards
this, and I think the dreamsthat actually come true are
(26:51):
those that step forward and try.
And so the forward momentum isnot just because I kept thinking
about it and I just keptdreaming about it, but I took it
to the playground and made ithappen.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Yeah, I love it.
Well, Brian and Linda, thankyou so much.
Thank you, thank you, nathan,and thank you for listening to
the Leadership Vision Podcast.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Dear God, I've only
danced for eight years.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
And thank you for
listening to the Leadership
Vision Podcast, our show helpingyou build positive team culture
.
For more resources about trying, about finding and discovering
your playground, you can clickthe link in the show notes or
visit us on the web atleadershipvisionconsultingcom.
Please share this podcast withsomeone that you could benefit
from, this message of trying orany of our other resources.
(27:40):
You can click the link in theshow notes for more about
Unfolded, and please pick it upwherever good books are sold.
My name is Nathan Freeberg.
I'm Linda Shubring.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
And I'm Brian
Shubring.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
And on behalf of our
entire team, thanks for
listening, trying to listen.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
There's always that
person, that's fine, that's fine
with us.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Better luck next time
.