Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
Trying is not weak.
I think sometimes we hear theword try and it's like, well,
because that's just average.
Like, just get in there and try.
And I think I want to say isjust as play gives people an
opportunity to practice thethings that they love, try
actually puts you on thetrajectory to greatness.
SPEAKER_00 (00:22):
And I believe that
that's why try is so important.
Because without the beauty andthe brilliance of someone's
uniqueness coming out, there'sall these steps of try that no
one ever sees that are happeningbehind the scenes.
That's how we get there.
We get there by trying.
SPEAKER_02 (00:43):
You are listening to
the Leadership Vision Podcast,
our show helping you buildpositive team culture.
Our consulting firm has beendoing this work for the past 25
years so that leaders arementally engaged and emotionally
healthy.
To learn more about our work,you can click the link in the
show notes or visit us on theweb at Leadership Vision
Consulting.com.
Hello everyone, my name isNathan Freeberg, and today in
(01:04):
the podcast, we're talking aboutwhat it means for organizations
to try.
This is based on chapter threeof Dr.
Linda and Brian Schubert's book,Unfolded, and we're going to be
exploring how teams, leaders,and entire organizations must be
willing to experiment, fail,refold, and adapt in order to
(01:24):
stay aligned with their mission.
We often think of trying as anindividual journey, but teams
are made of people navigatingthose same emotional and
strategic landscapes.
Together, we'll discuss what itlooks like when a team dares to
try something new, how to leadthrough doubt, and how the map
of an organization can guidecollective transformation.
(01:48):
Brian and Linda Schubring,welcome back to the podcast.
We are exploring chapter threeof Unfolded.
From an unfolding I was gonnasay from an I started saying
unfolded again.
From an origami train.
I am trained.
Train?
Crane?
(02:08):
I said crane.
Yeah, you said crane.
We'll rewind it.
Um we're talking about trying.
This comes directly from chapterthree, and for those who have
not been paying attention, we'regoing through each chapter in
the book.
SPEAKER_01 (02:23):
From an individual,
yes, I can say it.
From an individual perspective.
SPEAKER_02 (02:29):
Yeah, I'm just
saying if people haven't been
paying attention, if they're notfollowing it, they may not know
that we've been going througheach chapter twice.
Once uh from like an individualperspective, and then a second
time from a more uh business ororganizational perspective.
And today we are talking abouttrying as I don't know,
(02:51):
strategic experimentation or aslike this this larger collective
idea.
So before we get into some ofour points here, what what do
either of you want to say aboutthis?
SPEAKER_00 (03:03):
Well, I want to say
first of all is that we have
firsthand experience with bothteams and organizations that put
this concept of try intopractice.
I also want to say from thebeginning, it's not as easy as
it sounds.
It is really intentional and ittakes some time for the trying
(03:23):
to actually pay off.
So this is not necessarily aneasy concept to integrate within
a team or within anorganization.
SPEAKER_03 (03:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (03:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (03:33):
Well, I never
thought it was going to be easy.
SPEAKER_03 (03:35):
So if anyone thought
that it was it was easy, uh, I'd
like to hear it's not easy,especially when you're in a
high-performing organization,and the expectation is that you
hit bullseyes every single time.
And we were with um a boardyesterday and facilitating some
conversation to help reallyinvest in some of these
(03:58):
trustees, and some of theconversation was traversing in
one way, and a board member justraised her hand and said, I
can't wait to celebrate when wemake a big failure.
Like when we make a when we havea big failure, when we make a
big mistake, or and and itwasn't necessarily, I mean, you
(04:19):
could feel the kind of theshudder of fear or like what did
you just say?
Right.
And she was right, and I thinkcelebrate is often maybe a a big
word around that.
Like you don't necessarily throwa party for all the things that
maybe didn't go your way, but wehave found that the
organizations, the teams, thegroups of people that are making
(04:42):
innovative moves are the onesthat are willing to take
calculated risk.
And what we would say is try.
And how we talk about try ispracticing with intention,
intentional practice.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (04:56):
And so organizations
that try, they have several
unique characteristics.
One is that they have cleargoals, they they have goals,
they kind of know where they'regonna go, and they have this
expectation that each person hasthe ability to experiment, to
innovate, and to create and topartner with different people to
get there.
So there is also an element offreedom in how an organization
(05:16):
or a team allows people to try.
And there's also encouragementand a lack of judgment as people
are trying, because there's thisidea that you can practice,
there's a sense of failure, andit's not judged if you fall
down.
And the team also has this ideathat if we try and it doesn't
work, you can try again.
And so that mentality creates anopenness and a willingness for
(05:40):
people to participate.
And that's one of the mostunique things is that to try
means we're willing toexperiment, to try means we're
willing to practice.
To try means we're not afraid toset goals and we're not afraid
to try new ways to get there,and we're certainly not afraid
to ask for help.
SPEAKER_02 (05:55):
But how do you get
there?
It feels like we're a few stepsahead because most
organizations, most communities,most groups of people, like they
they don't have that mentality,especially in like a larger
organization.
It's I just want to do my job, Idon't want to get fired, I don't
want to take a risk, I don'twant to, you know, experiment
(06:15):
because the risks are too high.
So, how do you get a team, letalone an organization, to get to
that that level ofcomfortability where they want
to try.
They want to maybe risk a littlebit here or there.
SPEAKER_03 (06:29):
Well, I would say it
begins with what kind of
industry you are in.
SPEAKER_02 (06:32):
Well, sure.
SPEAKER_03 (06:32):
You don't want you
don't want you don't want air
traffic controllers to just trya bunch of things, or you don't
want to be able to do that.
Or surgeons or yeah, you'realmost there.
SPEAKER_00 (06:40):
Right.
That's right.
SPEAKER_03 (06:42):
Right.
So obviously there are it'sindustry specific, but there is
an opportunity, I think, forinnovation outside of the actual
event or whatever is happeningor the job responsibility.
So my guess is even with airtraffic controllers, they are
learning how to simulators.
(07:04):
Yeah, how let them not run intoeach other.
So I think it's it's an appetitefor that.
I think there are leaders outthere that are modeling the way
of being willing to try, beingwilling to not just lose their
mind when when everything goesawry.
And they have a tolerance forsome risk, a tolerance for some
(07:27):
mistakes, obviously not life ordeath ones, but ones that, well,
let's just let's just try itout.
Let's just practice.
Let's see if this will work.
Because if we do some testingand we do some iterating, maybe
we'll bump into something thatwill be really helpful.
SPEAKER_00 (07:44):
Because try reflects
and is specific to one's
context.
So it's going to be unique anddifferent in every space.
SPEAKER_03 (07:51):
The pressures of the
outside context right now are
demanding, and that's a bigenough word.
They they yeah, they aredemanding a new response.
The the same old ways are notworking.
You're not getting the sameresults.
That's obviously the definitionof insanity.
And so when context is theoutside pressures or outside
(08:12):
context is shaping uh how peopleare acting, interacting,
approaching the work,approaching the things that
they're doing together, thecollaboration, it is then that
uh it's almost like the cultureoutside invites a new kind of
way of going about business orworking together, and that is
(08:33):
the try.
SPEAKER_02 (08:34):
Well, uh I'm I'm
jumping ahead in our notes
because what I hear you sayingis you need to refold.
Like, is that what we're talkingabout?
Like the organization needs torefold, the organization needs
to adapt, change the context,all this stuff.
Are we at that point of theconversation yet, or is there
more in this middle sectionhere?
SPEAKER_00 (08:54):
There's a before.
Okay.
Because um sequentially, thereis try, there is experiment,
there is unfolding.
It there's like this sequence,because unfolding is a response
or reaction to something notworking.
(09:15):
And in that unfolding, it's it'ssaying, I'm willing to try
something different.
That's all we really mean whenit comes to the unfolding
concept in this process of tryis that you're willing to
experiment yourself and you'rewilling to help other people
experiment and try somethingnew.
Because the need for when thecontext presents the need to
(09:38):
innovate, we really don't knowwhat's going to work until we
try something new.
Because when the context issaying we need to innovate, the
context is saying what we'redoing right now isn't happening.
What we're doing right now isnot achieving our goals, and
what we're doing right now isn'tit isn't going to get us over
this immediate challenge or thisimmediate change.
Something has to be experimentedwith.
SPEAKER_03 (09:59):
And your next your
question, Nathan, was around is
is this the folding?
And I wonder if it really itreally is the unfolding first.
Because one of the ways thatthat we see, once again, spoiler
alert, one of the ways that wesee OC navigate is just take my
wing and refold it.
Take my wing and uh just add,add to it a little bit.
(10:22):
If we could just and it was theletting go, the unfolding is a
letting go to be able to evenposition yourself in a new place
to be able to try or do all thethings like iterate, adjust, and
navigate something new.
SPEAKER_00 (10:40):
And part of the
invitation here is to simply try
to experiment, to take a swingat it and see what happens.
Um, and the speed that thathappens and the frequency is
going to be dependent on contextagain.
Um, we have one client wherethey are they're needing to
respond to our presentcircumstance by taking big
(11:03):
swings and taking big risks andtrying really hard and difficult
things.
We have we have anotherorganization that is much more
um intentional on how it is thatthey're trying, and they're
realizing that they are in thebeginning steps of trying to
behave and to act a certain way.
And in that organization,individuals are stepping forward
(11:26):
and demonstrating, if you will,what it means to try a new
professional behavior or to trya different kind of
collaborative technique.
So, again, depending on context,try can look very, very
differently.
But the point is that there is awillingness to react and respond
quickly and boldly, and whateverthat looks like is unique to
(11:47):
your culture.
SPEAKER_02 (11:49):
I'm gonna I'm gonna
workshop a character here for a
second.
This should be fun.
I this just seems too hard.
I mean, what we're doing now,it's not broken, and we have so
much going on right in front ofus, I just don't know how we
experiment.
The risks are too high.
Like all these people I'mworking with, like I just can't
(12:10):
this is just too hard.
Like you're asking me toexperiment with people's
livelihood, with our bottomline, with all of this stuff,
and I know that we need to, butit it seems like what you're
asking us to do is toessentially risk like what we
have now is not bad.
You're asking us to riskpotentially falling off the
(12:32):
cliff to do this.
So how do I and scene?
Is that that's my character?
So help me help me.
SPEAKER_03 (12:38):
I don't know if
you've ever got the cliff either
way.
Yeah.
You're gonna fall off the cliffeither way.
SPEAKER_02 (12:44):
Okay, may as well
try something new.
SPEAKER_03 (12:47):
We hear that, and I
think that there's uh our brains
want that.
Our brains want the comfort, ourbrains want the predictability,
the certainty that gives us asense of maybe an illusion of
groundedness.
And and we would say that it isthe new thinking that will
(13:08):
actually take you from where youare now to to the next step.
And we've seen plenty oforganizations go out of business
because they refuse to meet themoment and they refuse to uh pay
attention to some of thecultural contextual pressures
just because they were gonnahold out and try.
(13:30):
And the organizations that we'reworking with right now, there
are people making six,nine-month plans and different
strategic options for howthey're going to navigate
forward.
And if, you know, this differentcontingency options.
And when we watch them andlisten to them, it's not like
all of a sudden, well, we don'tknow what to do today, so we're
(13:51):
gonna fix this.
It's like, well, we wereprepared for this scenario, that
scenario, that scenario.
Right.
And so this is how we're goingto respond.
And I think the leaders that arelike, I kind of like where I'm
at, I'm like, yeah, then get in,get into a more stable career.
SPEAKER_02 (14:07):
Right, right, right.
I mean, it's almost Brian kindof wrote in the notes for what I
was thinking, but it'sovercoming that fear, not only
at an individual level, but at aa higher level, an
organizational level.
So is there a I don't know, forlack of a better term, a tip or
a trick or a way that you havehelped organizations sort of
(14:30):
overcome that fear to say, let'sjust try this, let's see what
happens.
SPEAKER_00 (14:37):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (14:39):
Okay, next question.
SPEAKER_00 (14:41):
This isn't the
answer.
Um because the fear part thefear, the uncertainty, the
unknown, um, the memory can allcreate these barriers that keep
people from trying.
And what I was just looking up,um I had this phrase run through
my head as you were talking,Nathan, and it was to try you
(15:06):
first need to pry.
So sometimes people don't trybecause they're holding so
tightly onto how it's alwaysbeen done, a habit or a pattern
of thinking, and because they'reholding so tightly onto that,
they are really paralyzed byfear and they won't try.
So we have to like pry open andor loosen our grip on something
(15:29):
in order for us to be able totry and to experiment.
And it's okay to just say like,well, I've always done it that
way.
Because those types of patterns,we naturally want to follow our
patterns, but those patternssometimes need to be unlearned
and broken for us to be able tobe free enough to try something
(15:53):
new.
In in this chapter, there's ascene where there's a collision,
and that collision creates somedamage.
So, like there's this needalmost to say, well, that didn't
work, and without any shame orjudgment, try something new.
And it it's through thoseattempts at trying that will
(16:16):
eventually break through to findwhatever that equation is to
really propel us towardswhatever we're focused on.
SPEAKER_03 (16:23):
Well, I I like where
you're going with that, because
you're playing with rhyming.
So to try, you first have topry, and then sometimes you have
to cry.
Oh, there we go.
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00 (16:38):
What does that mean?
You have to cry.
SPEAKER_03 (16:40):
I think it's a it's
a letting go.
SPEAKER_00 (16:41):
I know where you're
going.
SPEAKER_03 (16:42):
If if there's a cry
of Oh, you mean cry like help?
SPEAKER_00 (16:46):
Could be or cry like
tears.
SPEAKER_03 (16:47):
Either either way, I
think sometimes crying is a it's
not always, but it is adepiction of someone in grief or
someone that has lost something.
And obviously tears can mean avariety of different things, but
in this in this conversation, Iwonder if it is a okay, you
gotta recognize that it's hardto let go and just start with
(17:09):
that.
We know it's hard to let go.
When we are working withorganizations and they invite
leaders to practice, they inviteleaders to uh to the table to
say, hey, you know, no one we'rein this uh off site, we are in
this retreat setting, we are inthis closed session, no one's
(17:30):
eyes are on us.
Let's practice here, let'spractice the courageous
conversations here, let's thinkoutside the box, let's not shoot
down other ideas or let's shootthem down quickly and
demonstrate resilience.
And so a lot of times it takessome framing, it takes some
(17:50):
parameters to be given in orderto try successfully and to have
the courage to even step in andpractice.
SPEAKER_00 (18:00):
Many organizations
have us play this role of
instigating more try behavior.
Um, and and those practicesessions that we facilitate are
designed just to do that, topractice, to give people the
chance to try and to experiment,to get in different partnerships
(18:20):
and have different thoughtpartners.
And so it, you know, it's messy,but there's also breakthrough to
it as well.
And so I think that there'ssomething about this whole
chapter that that says we trytogether, and there is a time
when practice is theperformance, and we're not
focusing on getting somethingperfect.
(18:41):
And another key element to trythat is key to the environment,
creating places for people totry is that there are leaders
and team members or people whoare influential who are actually
demonstrating what try lookslike.
Where they take the risk, theyask for help, they're not afraid
(19:03):
to say out loud, Well, thatdidn't work.
You know, thank you.
Thank God we didn't go publicwith that.
And and so they're demonstratingthat.
And I and I think that whenleaders or team members of
influence begin to demonstratewhat it means to try, it's
giving people the opportunity toobserve, to interpret, to put
language to something, and toreally pay attention to how
(19:25):
they're feeling when someone'sexperimenting and trying to
dance to new music for the firsttime.
That was pretty good.
SPEAKER_03 (19:32):
Wow, okay, so so
well.
SPEAKER_02 (19:36):
So what what what I
and I don't know if this will
make it in, but I just it's veryaspirational.
It's very like I'm thinking withorganizations I've worked with
or even are currently workedwith, who just are like we're
going too fast.
We can't stop to think aboutthis.
We just don't have time, wedon't have the energy or space.
(19:58):
Yes, we know we need to dosomething different, but we're
gonna keep um, you know, we'rewe're gonna keep using, you
know, building fire fromscratch, we just don't have time
to go out and buy matches or youknow, wh whatever it is.
And so I'm wondering how do youyes, it's everything that you
said, it's changing the culture,it's taking a risk, it's doing
all that stuff, but how do youget through to a leader or to an
(20:21):
organization and say somethingto like what you were saying
about you're gonna fall off thecliff anyway, you may as well
try something different.
Because that that's where Iwonder if the magic of this is
is like no, here's how youactually go get on the back of a
golden retriever and run into atree.
SPEAKER_00 (20:40):
The magic happens
when the leaders in the moment
are ready for something new toemerge.
We work with plenty oforganizations, not too many
right now, but some in the past,where it is clear that the
organization and leadership isnot open to any type of try
(21:00):
because how things are beingdone are quote, not broken, so
why fix them?
Yeah, and there isn't anenvironment of experimentation
or curiosity or openness oradaptation, it just isn't there.
So what you're saying, Nathan,is is true, is we is maybe the
invitation is for us to ask isour environment a place where
(21:22):
try is welcome?
And if not, then I think thatthat that is a a place of
acceptance as well.
SPEAKER_03 (21:30):
And I would say
don't start with the biggest
things.
So how do you run some smallerexperiments of okay, we're gonna
change this?
This won't take this will take acouple hours.
This is not gonna take a wholeteam effort.
How did it go?
What did you learn?
What did you bump into?
How can AI help with some of theyou know navigating of the some
(21:55):
of the what feels like maybemenial, menial tasks?
And the the consistent trying, Ithink, will in those small areas
will give people and perhapsteams a greater degree of
confidence in order to tacklethe big like, well, we have to
press pause, we have to go slowto go fast, and or we'll just
(22:20):
burn ourselves out, we'll burnout the team, and you know, we
might disappear.
SPEAKER_02 (22:26):
So I have some
actions.
Well, so a couple final thingshere.
I want to I want to read thisconclusion and just get your hot
takes.
Um I have some action steps thatwe'll include in the show notes
and the blog posts, but one ofthem is kind of what you were
saying.
Uh a team practice is identifyone area this quarter or this
week, whatever, where your teamcan experiment without fear of
(22:48):
failure.
So maybe after you ask thatquestion is why don't we have a
tri-culture?
All right, huh, this is weird.
Well, what if we identified onearea where we can try something
and then see if that sort ofgets that flywheel moving?
Okay, so here's the conclusion.
Organizations like people aremade of stories, shapes, and
dreams.
(23:09):
To grow, to innovate, to becomemore of who they're meant to be,
they must try.
Not once, not perfectly, butpersistently.
Trying becomes a culture, notjust an action.
And when teams are willing torefold, reimagine, and reach
out, they move closer to thelight of their shared vision.
(23:30):
Your thoughts.
SPEAKER_03 (23:32):
My initial thought
is that trying is not weak.
I think sometimes we hear theword try and it's like, well,
because that's just average.
Like just get in there and try.
And I think I want to say isjust as play gives people an
opportunity to practice thethings that they love, try
(23:55):
actually puts you on thetrajectory to greatness.
SPEAKER_02 (24:00):
Try puts you on the
trajectory to greatness.
SPEAKER_00 (24:04):
Yeah, I like it.
I think try is the only way.
We were once watching an artistlive, and she was painting a
very like a life-size painting,and it was clear, like the
person that she was painting wascoming into full view.
(24:25):
You could see the features ofthis person's face, you could
see the background, and theartist, she was so into this,
and we're thinking, like, man,this is beautiful.
And then all of a sudden, shetakes this one motion with her
hand and like swipes the wholething clean and just continues
to paint something right overthe top of it.
(24:45):
The point is, what she wastrying didn't work, and she just
kept right on going withoutwithout changing a canvas, just
kept working off of the previoustry.
And eventually, you know, hermasterpiece came through, but
then you realize that there werelayers and layers and layers of
try that were built behind whatthe end product was.
(25:10):
And I believe that that's whytry is so important because
without the beauty and thebrilliance of someone's
uniqueness coming out, there'sall these steps of try that no
one ever sees that are happeningbehind the scenes.
That's how we get there.
We get there by trying.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (25:29):
Well, Brian and
Linda, thank you so much.
This is um, I always love theseconversations when we take, you
know, the these words that youwrote on the page that are now
static and we make them dynamicthrough this conversation and
hopefully open up uh otherpeople's ideas to maybe for uh
future and further applicationof them.
(25:49):
So thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (25:50):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (25:51):
And thank you for
listening to the Leadership
Vision Podcast, our show helpingyou build positive team culture.
If you found value in thisepisode or any of our other
material, we would love it ifyou could follow us on the
socials, join our emailnewsletter, but maybe more
importantly, share it withsomeone that you think could
benefit from this message oftrying or building
strength-based culture.
(26:11):
To learn more about us, you canclick the link in the show notes
or visit us on the web atLeadership Vision
Consulting.com.
My name is Nathan Freeberg.
I'm Linda Schubring.
And I'm Brian Schubring.
And on behalf of our entireteam, thanks for trying.
SPEAKER_03 (26:26):
Last time we did try
it, guys.
It's okay.