The Leftovers with Jay, Jack + Mike: Ep. 3.06 "Certified"

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
From Raleigh, North Carolina. It'sThe Leftovers with Jay and Jam podcast dedicated
to HBOS The Leftovers. So sitback, relax, and enjoy the show.
Her and Welcome to The Leftovers withJay, Jack and Mike. My
name is Jay, my name isMike, and I'm Scuba Steve and welcome

(00:25):
to the show. Has a goingguy speaking of abandoning children. Um well,
I was gonna go with Officer Qualified, but I decided to go to
Scuba Steve. It's a pretty accuratename. But um yeah, what just
a gripping, moving, incredible episode, uplifting. I mean, I'm telling

(00:48):
you, I just like people whothought this was not going to be depressing
that We're gonna be what carry Coonsaid, We're gonna be fulfilled that what
she said. I mean either way, Chanson in the Street, if this
is the last we've seen of Laurie, is that? Is this a fulfilling
story arc for her? We actuallyfinally got, you know, her story
pretty much fleshed out completely in thisepisode. Whether or not she ended her

(01:11):
life at the end of this episodecould be a for debate, even though
it seemed like it was telegraphed thatshe did commit suicide. But I don't
know what are your thoughts, Mike, what are your thoughts? Yeah,
fulfilling does not mean up lefting thisDespite what you talked about at the end
of the season two, this isnot a show that thrives on a happy
ending. And I think we talkedabout this in the podcast following our during

(01:34):
our live show as well, whenwe were talking about Nora and Kevin breaking
up, that sometimes the best endingfor a character does not mean them getting
the girl again. A million dollarsran off at the sunset, everyone breaks
into a Bollywood dance at the end. That that's not necessarily what a fulfilling
ending mean. Sure helps so well. I don't know, maybe Lovetovers could

(01:55):
pull off a lot of things.I don't know if a Bollywood dance number
is something that they could do.It didn't work for Smash, so I
think that's the clear indicator from bringingthat up in the mainstream TV. But
yeah, I will definitely talk aboutthis. I do feel like we did
get a lot of fulfillment out ofLorie in my opinion. I mean,
I mean, yeah, this wasa very emotionally heavy episode. I'd say
one of the most emotionally heavy episodessince like the first season in terms of

(02:17):
really bringing the pathos out. Butit's so interesting because I think we forget
sometimes that The Leftovers at its coreis a show that's about loss and life
and sort of the parallels and windingintersections that these roads take, as you
know, we traveled down them,and dealing with this idea of suicide.

(02:38):
We've traped it in the past.You know, Kevin initially thinks that,
you know, he wanted to killyou know, he was like, oh,
I threw myself into the lake inJardin because I wanted to kill myself.
Turned out to be a little morecomplicated than that. But this idea
of you know, how do youdeal with these feelings and how things are
complicated by the idea of another afterlifeexisting. But we really got to see

(03:01):
so much from Laurie, not onlyin this present perspective, but to see
her in multiple timelines and especially tosee what is leading her to become a
member of the Guilty Remnant. Inthe very beginning. Yeah, I mean,
this was this was a torto forcefor Amy Brennaman and for the character.
I'm fine seeing her go up andmeant her going out in such a
beautiful, horrifically depressing way. ButI say that in the best way.

(03:24):
Yeah, I agree, it's it'sbut it is odd though, right because
if she did commit a suicide,um, it's something that it's generally like
a really painful, tough experience foreverybody that's left behind. Um. And
but the way it was depicted herewas in a sense beautiful or or it

(03:44):
just there's a lot of like mixedemotions and mixed feelings in this episode that
it maybe makes it, you know, puts it up there in in the
echelon of great episodes of TV,and that like it tackles a subject of
you know, because every a lotof the main characters were dealing with kind
of the end of end of theline or the end of um, you

(04:04):
know, wherever their characters are going. Um. And just the way tackle
it was such a beautiful, emotional, real way that was just just feeling
a spectrum of emotions that generally youdon't get from a TV show. Well,
they started right from the start.Yeah, you know, they had

(04:25):
Laurie talking to the irresponsible mother,you know, because she left the child
with the window open. Sam's mother. Yeah, that's that's when we're talking
about. But I just right fromthe start thing, I mean, the
acting was was amazing, and it'sjust like, you know, Laurie's not
saying anything, and that's like whenshe says, can you help me?
What? What do you what's theanswer? I don't know. Yeah.

(04:46):
And that's the fun thing as well, is that I feel like, especially
season two, Laurie and through thefirst half of season three, she's really
tried to be like the the rationalperson of the group, especially as the
more I could do conspiracies are beingspread, especially with the stuff associated with
the Book of Kevin and everything.She seemed to be like the cool,
you know, blast of water inthis ever rising heat that's going on throughout

(05:11):
the coach of this third season,especially to the point of her last episode.
You know, Matt was turning herdown because you know, he's saying,
you're a thorn in my side.You don't believe in what I believe
in. And I think she honestlylearned this episode to kind of let go
through her adventures with Nora and throughher you know, encountering this belief face
to face. You know, shewas always the pragmatist she was always the
one to say, there's a reasonableexplanation behind all of this, And I

(05:34):
think now she was finally ready toin a way, let that go what
goes scuba diving, and let whateverhappen happen and sort of let the gravity
of the weight belt, let hersink down to the bottom of the ocean,
and let nature determine what happens fromthere. But the opening scene where

(05:55):
the mother is talking about she keepsgoing back to the parking lot, you
know, because That's what I'm supposedto do, right That's why I'm supposed
to go back there, because ifhe returns, he'll be there. He'll
be there for me, we'll knowwho I am. You never thought about
that? Do you go back tothe same spot over and over and over
again? I just i just thoughtthe opening scene it had me from the
start. I'm like going, ohmy god, I never thought about that.

(06:18):
Yeah, you would, as youas a parent. You know your
child has turned up missing, andyou know, just as one of the
departed, and you keep going backto the same place over and over and
over again. What should I do? And nobody has the answers because you
know, what do you do?You don't know. It's just like Jardin

(06:38):
as well, where we got abunch of people in this town, a
woman wearing a wedding dress, theguy butchering the goats, where you know,
they were sort of like in thatcase, it was well, we
did this and nothing happened, wewere spared, So therefore if we keep
doing it, is this what's indicatingit? And this is one thing that
I've always loved about the show iswhen you take such a random event as
the sudden departure, you know,if you pull ten different people, they're

(07:00):
going to have ten different explanations asto what happened, ten different reasons how
it happened, and ten different thingsthey should do as a result of it,
just from our world beliefs or yourpersonal philosophies. And Laurie is another
person who sort of butts up againstit with her own personal philosophy of how
to view the world and view allthis especially, she was the one that
was really seemed to be talking Kevinthrough the stuff that when he saw Eva

(07:21):
a couple of episodes ago. Soyeah, she was definitely instigating some things
along. But now that she's comehere, she's almost ready to almost like
Matt, she had a change ofheart and is now sort of making her
own peace in a variety of regards, with you know, finishing up any
sort of last business she may havein a way before she may move on.

(07:44):
Yeah, and in an odd Iguess not an odd way, but
you know it. With only twoepisodes left, maybe we're quickly seeing how,
you know, or at least maybejust for Laurie, how their story
are going to end. Hey thatwe're kind of rhymed. Um. But
before we get into our kept andreally digging into this episode, uh,

(08:07):
we're gonna thank our patrons or atpatreon dot com slash Jay and Jack.
If you like my own patron today, you can do so click on the
become a patron link on Jane Jackdot com. Our our podcast all of
the the JJP podcast um our listenerssupported, and without your listeners support,
all of our shows would not bepossible, including this one. So thank

(08:28):
you to our patrons. Um.Uh, we have some feedback day,
some emails. Jack, do youhave a good crackpot theory the week for
us? I'm done? Oh you'reI'll have something. But we're start Jack
because we have the show notes,I'm like writing it before the show starts,
so we know he's not just makingit up as he goes along.

(08:48):
Oh, is that what it is? Lazy crackpot theory? And no,
it's how cock can you come upwith crackpot theory? This? This show
is so bizarre, it's so crazy. But it's so easy, then,
Jack, you can come up withliterally anything. No, because it's it's
impossible if you keep you suba thesegment with Mike's hot takes. Okay,
that's fine, that's fine with me. It's only two weeks left. You

(09:11):
you got, you got, yougot? I guess the wrong judas?
Come on, man, alright wewere so close. Come on man,
Well we'll let you complain about gettingthe wrong judas during who would have guessed?
Well, let's let's jump into thisrecap. Guys, what do you
say? Let's do it? Doit? Here we go. All right,

(09:54):
it's left Overs recap time, Andthis episode starts out with Going four
season one to two years after thedeparture, with therapist Laurie listening to Sam's
mom the woman kind of started seasonone, uh talk about her baby um
and basically it gave it a backstorythere, which adds so much more weight

(10:16):
to that first scene where they trythey tried ivf UM and just then she
gave up. And then five yearslater she got pregnant, had a kid,
and then six months in that childis departed. Um. She wants
a response or something from Laurie,and Laurie's just kind of looked as a
blank stare and says, I don'tknow. Um. After that, she

(10:39):
tries to commit suicide by overdo overdosing, to which we have a string version
of Wherever I'm a Roam by Metallica. Uh. She changes her mind and
forces herself to throw up with wasthat like sem lac epicac? That's it?
Um? After she takes off herclothes, find some white clothes and
asks the gr outside her home whatshe has to do next. We haven't

(11:03):
many cold openings. This one isa doozy. Yeah. Well, so
I'll say, Jack, for allthem aligning you have towards this woman from
the very beginning of the show.Do her trials and tribulations of trying to
have a child to give her anysort of sympathy in your opinion? Oh?
Yeah, I feel bad now ifI would have done that story if

(11:24):
I would have known that story ahead, would wouldn't have been so judgmental.
But because well, she did havethe window open and that was irresponsible.
But uh, but I've heard thisstory. I'm like going, oh my
god, But she didn't leave thekid in the car. She just put
the kid. She was going todrive with the I can't remember why I
was bagging. I mean she wasalso she was also talking to her husband

(11:45):
because like their washing machine had broken, and that's why she was at the
laundromat. Yes, but you hearthe whole story, you go, all
right, and then she's going backto the park. I go, Okay,
I feel bad. I apologize foranyone that has kids. There's if
you could, you could snapshot probablyany moment in time and when you are
not even remotely close to the bestparent in the world. But but but

(12:07):
everybody has those moments. But it'sa lot easier to judge other people.
Am I right? For you?Jack? Maybe for you? We all
do it, um, But sowe we we see why Laurie joined the
guilty remnant, um, and itmakes sense. I think it's I think
it's a satisfying reveal there to wherewhat led her to because we kind of

(12:30):
had the inkling of she was pregnantum and the and that baby departed in
her room at sixteen weeks. Butit kind of even adds some more context
to it for her. Yeah,that's what it was. Though. We
figured that her baby, she wasactually what you know, the ultrasound she
saw and then it's just teared.We figured that had something to do with
it. And also is something alittle bit larger though in the sense of,

(12:50):
yes, there's the quite the literalevent of losing her child. But
I feel like, at the sametime, you know, I'm assuming after
something like to sudden departure, therewill be an influx of people into the
herpists saying, you know, pleasegive me a rationale as to what happened.
And I think Laurie might have hadher own little crisis of faith.
One reason is probably because she thought, like, I'm in a position where
I'm supposed to be giving people rationalebehind these things, and I honestly don't

(13:13):
know how to explain this. Andso you know, you have this really
indicative, meaningful line of tell mewhat to do. That happens twice in
two different circumstances in this cold open. The first is Sam's mother trying to
talk to Laurie. At first,when Laurie wasn't talking, I thought that
she'd already was like an initiate inthe gr so that's why she wasn't talking.

(13:33):
But it's just because Lorie is entirelyspeechless. She doesn't exactly know what
to tell her to comfort her becauseshe has no idea what happened. And
then the cold open ends with hergrabbing as many white garments as she can,
walking out to the gr and saying, tell me what to do.
An They're not going to literally tellher what to do, because that's their
m O. But it's so interestingbecause it's almost like she's using them as

(13:54):
a form of therapy, you know, in a weird way. Yeah,
And honestly, her not having anythingto say or doesn't know what to say,
you know, join the guilty Remnantmight be a relief for her in
that sense where she she doesn't haveto come from extuation or say anything.
You know. Yeah. Um,good, good point, Jake. But

(14:15):
uh we close out of that cold, cold open, and then we go
to the opening title with Grave Digga'sone eight hundred suicide um as the song
against it's telegraphed so much. Howdo we not assume that's what she did?
Um? But is it almost twoover the top? Is this just?

(14:37):
But again, I don't if theynever bring or never go to Lori
Starlin again, I wouldn't, youknow, doubt it because it's Stephen Linderoff.
He's never gonna give us an exactanswer whether she committed suicide. Yeah,
she did, Okay, I thinkit's still open to interpretation. I
don't think I think she did becausethe almost they almost drove the point home

(14:58):
too hard, I think. Butanyways, we have Laurie or Laura La
arriving at the Grace compound. You'renot gonna say Grace compound because I feel
like that whole situation is more ofa compound than a than a house.
M She arrives in a yellow VWVan with a black eye and a Burton
Book of Kevin. She's greeted byPop. She gives him the book,

(15:20):
Kevin says, Matt says, he'ssorry, didn't put you in it,
and uh, Papa Garby says,Kevin is off giving what they asked him
to do. I think they askedhim to die and Laurie wants to be
a part of it. Do webelieve her here? No? No,
not at all. I mean,why would you believe her? I don't

(15:43):
know. I don't know. Um. We then go to kind of it.
This The cool thing about this episodeis the timeline kind of jumps back
and forth between just before where shearrives at the Grace Compound too now and
we go back to Laurie spying ontwo women. At the first I was

(16:03):
saying, this was like her initiationinto the guilty remnant was like finding out
in telling somebody. So I thoughtthe same exact thing. I should just
ask to be where she's taking.You know, they take they had the
photos of them, and you knowthey you know, dirt on everybody.
Yeah, but we were wrong,yes, um uh so yeah, she
is helping out Nora and Matt findout what those two physicists are up to.

(16:27):
Um. And then we cut backto Grace Park and Garvey Senior tells
his story up to this point.Um. He wants Junior to die and
get the song from Chris Sunday.Um. John wants Kevin to tell something
to Evi. Papa. Garvey tellsLaurie to tell them, they're crazy.

(16:48):
She says, it's crazy, butthese are crazy times. You're not coming
gonna jam us up? Laurie saysno. Um. She says, I
wouldn't come back, but Kevin will. He always does. Um. At
that moment, the deputy at thecompound. So again Lorie playing the part
of I'm along for the ride,man, I just want to be here.
Yeah, I mean, they makea direct comparison to Wizard of Oz

(17:10):
here she says, you know,everybody wants something, which again is something
that speaks to the higher idea ofbeliefs that exists on this show, in
that you know, Senior wants touse Kevin to get the song back,
John wants to use him to talkto his daughters. So I don't think
everyone specifically, you know, usingKevin to get the exact same thing of

(17:30):
this you know higher maybe visiting ahigher power. And so they're saying,
like, Okay, I believe inthis because it's going to help me achieve
X. And so Lorie compares itto you know, the Lion, the
Scarecrow of the him and from theWizard of Oz. And I believe it's
Senior who calls her Dorothy who allshe wants to do is just sort of
get home, and she's sort ofthe one normal person in this entirely weird,

(17:52):
magical world. And I guess,depending on the ending, you could
say that she went back home ina way if home is, you know,
returning to a place that makes youhappy. Allah what Kevin Junior saying
at the end of season two whenhe's saying homeward bound once he realized where
he wanted to go, yep,um Jack. Any any other thoughts there,

(18:17):
Maybe, Laurie, you're saying,you're you're you're not convinced she killed
herself, right, No, Ithink she did, But there's just so
I don't know. I think thereis an inkling there. That's like one
of the things about scuba diving.As an orse who talks about, even
though she loos to the fact thatlike, oh, you know, it
could be mistaken for just an accident, I think it's also more so about
sort of succumbing to nature and sortof taking your chance to whether it would,

(18:40):
for some one reason or another,you would meet your end via that
method. So I still think therecould be a chance that instead of her
animately killing herself, instead she's sortof letting go of control in a way
and saying whatever happens happens, Andthat's sort of been what she does as
she says her farewells and has conversationsthroughout the course of this episode. So

(19:03):
that's sort that's sort of like thethe only thing that's holding me back from
outright saying that she went and didit, even though I do believe that
Amy Brennaman had a great interview withJosh Wigler with The Hollywood Reporter where she
confirms that Laurie is dead but weall die eventually. Well, she did
she commit suicide? Baby to getanswers, no, No, I don't

(19:27):
know. I just feel I don'tthink that. I don't think that's that's
makes sense from the arc that wesee this episode. Again, I think
that Laurie's epiphany this episode is thatnot everything needs an explanation. People do
things for a variety of different reasons, and she is not able to necessarily
root everything in a common sense rationale, and the moment that she realizes that

(19:52):
that's not the case of the momentthat she really is able to achieve true
enlightenment. From my point of view, Yeah, and kind of let go.
Like what ever, maybe whatever heldher back from committing suicide. Uh
four five years five years ago.Um, she kind of was able to
actually see the purpose of of everybodyand and actually let go, um and

(20:17):
be okay with it. Um forwhatever her reasoning was. Um, all
right, but uh. We thengo to Laurie, who is watching videos
of people that have used the departuremachine. Um. Laurie says the machine
is an elegant suicide machine. Norasays, no, if I was going
to commit suicide, I would goscuba diving everyone to be protected. Um.

(20:40):
So do we have to blame Norahere for Laurie's death if if Laurie
in fact did commit suicide, Imean Gamer suggests, Yeah, yeah,
okay, it's it's manslaught or notnot murder. Yeah. Well, it's
also interesting in that, like Norahas would you call this a change Nora
or do we mean to just likesort of a more hardened Nora from where

(21:03):
we left things at the end ofepisode four, because she seems very very
brazen throughout this entire storyline. Well, she just continues to go and go.
This is like Nora on cocaine orsomething. It's just well, she
made some good points. She goes, would She goes, oh, well,
you built you built those those repuclasof my children, my husband and
left him in my uh in mykitchen. She well, she's got some

(21:26):
bitterness towards Lorie too, and it'sjustified. Yeah, I mean, and
they've I'm trying to remember there obviouslyhave been you know, three years passed
since season two. In season three, I'm sure they've interacted a good handful
of times, especially like living nextdoor to each other. But I think
the only other interaction we saw wasuh amy had Lorie had called Nora right

(21:51):
to talk about Kevin in season two? Um uh yeah, um yep.
Nora wants Lorie to do a readingof her. She says she doesn't want
to do departures, but Nark keepspushing it. Matt says they can do
their dead parents. Can you sayI love Matt in this episode? Just

(22:12):
his kind of again, he kindof had his moment last episode where he
let go of everything, and Ijust Matt in his episode seemed really like
we're talking about the dark humor ofthis show, just his kind of attitude
and air. This episode was justvery well he was also he was also
keeping the piece, you know,keeping it come on between Lori and Nora.

(22:34):
But just the way he was sayingit was funny though it was funny.
Well, I think then also,I mean, I'm assuming that he
also sort of like abandoned his faithand also abandoned that career path as well,
because he's he's thrown on any sortof expletives later on in the episode.
But I mean, and we'll alsoget to that very very beautiful,
poignant scene when they're overlooking the machinewhere it seems like him and Nora have

(22:56):
finally seemed to build a bridge withoutany walls between each other after so many
years. So Matt two pointz isoff on a good place. Yes,
Um, Nora doesn't want that youput life size replicase of my family my
home. Um, And you know, Loris's death is fine nights you can
bring closure to the departures, arenot. It doesn't there is no ending

(23:17):
to it, and Nora doesn't wantclosure. Um, And Laurie says,
I know, so she did seemsome have some remorse about that though,
Lorie, Yeah, she wrote abook about how horrible it all is.
I know, but she but shewas like Noria, all right, yeah,
you're right, you're right. Actually, you know, there's only two

(23:38):
episodes left. I doubt we're goingto see any more. Gr So did
did the Department of Rifles and Departuresor whatever? Did they do? They
kill all of the guilty remnant,including ev and her crew. But you
have to assume, like I don'tknow if we ever answered this question as
to whether there are multiple branches ofthe RU I mean, considering that we

(24:03):
have a branch in New York,in a branch in Texas, and great
that they connected a little bit viaMeg, you'd have to assume that,
like, you know, you're steppingon one bug, but there are still
a bunch of bugs crawling around atthe same time. And again, I
think it's a great representation in themthe way people interpret these types of beliefs,
and that you know, you mightthink you can squash out a certain
type of belief, but the factis there's so many people believing so many

(24:26):
different things across the country that youreally are not able to control anything in
that regard. But you think we'dsee you know that we maybe that's not
in Australia or they're not prevalent inAustrala. But you think we just see
them, you know, around atsome point, right, you know,
but they're in white, but they'rein wide open spaces. I mean,
you know, like you're you're we'vebeen in a city. We've been in
Melbourne and we've been in cities andstuff like that. You think you would

(24:48):
see one just you know, runningby or something. I don't know,
running by one at some point.But maybe they don't wear white. I
don't know that. Yeah, that'strue. Well, that's well, I
mean in season two they were youknow, the gr in Texas, they
were talking. They weren't wearing white. They were wearing playing clothes. So
I think it's clear that, likeit's the Mapleton gr is not representative in
particular of the overall gr any sortof other sect that pervades the world at

(25:11):
this point. But at this point, do we think we're even going to
see him? Did they even matterto the story at this point? Yeah?
I think I agree, And Ithink I think much like you talked
about with Laurie earlier, Jay,I think they have served their purpose.
They were a great representation of acertain sect of beliefs. They had their
big moments in seasons one and two. They got wiped off in the beginning
of season three, or at leastthat one part. Did I think we're

(25:33):
okay seeing them for now? I'dlike to see one more, just one
more, just one like a postcredit scene at the end of the last
episode or something. Yeah, hey, I'm still here, I'm talking now,
I got I got this whole caseof cigarettes. We go back to
the Grace compound. Deputy is beingled around the property. John asked about

(25:53):
Norah. Laurie won't disclose that,which is interesting. You didn't tell me,
says, you didn't tell me thatyou're with Kevin Um. He asked
how she got the black eye.UM. Nora gave it to her.
John didn't tell her because she doesn'tbelieve in any of this UM and then
kind of, uh, you know, Michael says, it's kind of bring

(26:14):
some I don't know sense to it. You know, he helped, She
helped Nora. Now she's gonna helpus. At that moment, Papa Garvey
waxed the deputy with a shovel andhe asks for a hand. So again,
a dark humor is pretty funny inthis A good close to the episode
scene. So many unconscious people thisepisode. Um, well you then go

(26:36):
that's a that's a deputy that KevinKevin the yeah exactly guy in charge was
was crapping all over him. Okay, I was. I was trying to
remember I felt bad for the guyguy got crapped all over by the dead
guy. Qualifarts right? Is that? Yeah? Um, I don't think.
I don't think he deserved being hitby a shovel. I mean just

(26:59):
it's just over the head. Andevery every group of people has like that
one person that's a du fist,So like every group of friends has that
one. But you're saying, you'resaying he's the Barney five. Yeah,
he's the Barney five. Yeah.Well who or what's going on over here?
The boat? Great thought? Nottsimpression, Mike, that was great.

(27:19):
Um. They go to Matt takingsteroids. Norah wishes he had paint
killers. Her uterus hurts. Shehad her I E. D taken out.
Um, which I that's related togoing on this trip that this department
machine. When when she when shewas getting examined by whatever his name was
with Eden and Becker last time,she he said that you know, if

(27:41):
you want to the machine, you'regonna have to have your IOU taken out.
So I think this is a veryclear indicator that, yeah, Norah
is fervently chasing after these doctors becauseshe still has every intention of actually going
through the machine. Yep, exactly. Um, she tries to write a
cigarette's or gives her the Jill lighterto use that don't forget me, Um

(28:02):
says she quit the destructive habit.Nora says, that's what makes it cool.
Um, she doesn't give the lighterback. Lori fights her for it,
She gets an elbow in her eye, the black eye. Then we
see the two women leaves, sothey have to get moving. So the
explotion for the black eye, guessisn't, as you know, scandalous as
actually what took place. No,nor did say she was sorry, said

(28:26):
I didn't well, I don't know. She said she was sorry, she
was I didn't mean to hitch hitchin the eye. Yeah, I mean,
dude, do we think that Norawas being unsympathetic here or do you
think Lori could have done a betterjob of explaining exactly the significance of the
lighter, Like like any relationship betweentwo people there's blame to go on both
sides, right, No, No, this one you got to blame Nora
because LORI asked for the lighter back. Yes, but it's it's greater than

(28:51):
just that moment, the lighter Now, I want the lighter back. If
you want to think on like verysimple Toddler level terms, yes, but
I think I'm talking I'm talking anyany human being. If I give you
something, let you borrow something,you're supposed to give it back. That's
black and white. The world isn'tgray, man, Well, I'm sorry

(29:11):
the gray world of Nora. Iusually defender on this one, but you
know is wrong. But I thinkyou gotta understand between I think Nora.
I think to be fair to Nora, she's still bitter about the whole you
know, exactly, sorry our treatabsolutely. So that's again you just you
just showed the gray, right Jack, because there's I just I see the
gray, and I did like howmatts. Come on, ladies, Yeah,

(29:33):
just give her the lighter, giveher a lighter back. I got
a nosebleed going on here. Icome on, I'm literally I'm on steroids.
I could I could rip you bothapart. And again they mentioned earlier,
like I've seen earlier. But Noratalking about Matt is you know,
quote unquote committing suicide by not gettingtreatment for um, yes cancer, So
like everybody a lot and you know, Kevin's should mash theme song should have

(29:56):
been to be playing on this episode, right nameless um, But I don't
know if that one would be quiteappropriate in terms of the theme of the
song, because suicide is painless.I don't know if that's well the right
way to take. But any who, Um, we go back to Papa
Garvey. He's going to take thedeputy out to where he can't come back

(30:17):
in time to wrest him until theirwork is done. Laurie shares a coffee
with John m. John talks aboutthe first time they had coffee. When
you touched my hand, I thoughtI could tell you anything except my daughter
was still alive. I should havetold you, and Laurie says, I
would have made you talk to people'sdead relatives if I knew, Um,
should I know? When you're shreddingthe cash, John wants Kevin to tell

(30:40):
his daughter that she was loved.Um tells her about why the dead boys
cousins made the boat. So Iguess that answers the question if he was
a vision of the grown up kids. Oh, that makes them much less
fun. I wanted to think thatit was the dead, the dead,
Grace's dead children, but no,it seems like it was the try members
of one one of the kids thatGrace and her husband had adopted, decided

(31:03):
to I guess he liked boat,so they built a boat immemorium. But
now Senior has apparently I guess maybehe tore the boat apart and is now
using the wood to help build thechurch. Yeah, the crazy old man
thought it was part of his fledstory. But I believe it because if
I don't, my whole story Unravelstells her to tell him he's crazy and

(31:27):
they can leave and go home.She tells him that he has to see
this through. He's so close,so a getting Lori's kind of just she
has these moments, a lot ofthese characters helping them, you know,
move on. But it's interesting herewhere this could be her own suicide note
in a way, because she couldhave, you know, in this for

(31:48):
John and went home. If shewould have said, yes, this is
crazy, let's go home, whichis probably the normal Lorie response to things
and some great you know, aswe said, we don't work a lot
with the flat back structure. Eventhough this is a Lost DNA like show,
this is really one of the bigtimes that we do it. And
there's a lot of similarity slash liketransitional pieces between each you just brought up

(32:10):
for example, you know, Ithink it's Laurie telling John like, oh
no, you know, you haveto go through with it, You're so
close, and then it cuts toyou're getting too close when they're urging Nora
to like back away from the doctor'scar. So again, lots of really
fun connections that seamlessly transition. Butyeah, this idea that John can't throw
out Kevin seen your story because itmeans he has to throw out his own.

(32:31):
It goes back to what I saidbefore with this whole Wizard of Oz
thing of everyone has a different reasonto follow this belief. But if you
disregard as someone's crazy story, youby default have disregard your own. It's
almost like saying, you know,how can I do validity to my own
set of beliefs if I'm going tocramp upon someone else's beliefs as well?

(32:52):
YEA exactly exactly, which we couldsay a lot of that about faith,
right, you could um religions ingeneral, like there's there's certain parts where
well, if if I do this, then all of it's kind of invalid.
How can you pick and choose,which is what a lot of people
do with OORII with some don't so, but it is. But it is

(33:13):
kind of like a and it goesback to actually we haven't gotten to that
scene yet where you know, Matt'stalking about UM. You know, well,
you're not to take revelations literally,it's more of this um and Nora
makes fun of him for that.So it is it's kind of it shows
the parallels between you know, faithin religion and how it all comes to

(33:36):
play in reaction to this event,this departure UM. We then go to
Nora, Matt, and Lori,who are in pursuit. Nora says,
why the French guy fired the nuke? He got the idea from revelations that
there's a seven headed monster that hehad to prevent from arriving and destroying the
world. And like I said earlier, Matt says, revelations it meant to

(33:57):
be taken literally. Nora jabs himfor that. Uh. Nora asks what
Laurie I would say to that person? Uh, and she Laurie said,
don't miss um. Laurie gets acall for Michael, telling her where they
are. Uh, says she needsto come there. Laurie tells them where
Kevin is. Norris says, goodbig day tomorrow, we should all be

(34:17):
with family. How did you guysfeel about their being given? And it's
not really a rational explanation, butan explanation as to why the naked frenchman
from the previous episode launched those nukes. Um it well, it makes it
makes sense. It makes sense.As far as did you feel it was

(34:38):
necessary? Um, yes, Ithink it. I think for this scene
it was. Yeah, Because Ithink it does it plays into what everybody
else is experiencing in this episode.They all have a belief in something that
they're following. Nora believes that,you know, she can whatever she's going
to go to wherever her kids are, whether she survives on or whatever,

(35:00):
she's going to do that or shebelieves that's what she's going to do.
And all of Kevin and his apostlesbelieve in whatever he has to do.
And this French guy he had hisown belief that he believed he had to
do and was following it. Andit seems Matt and he had to do
it naked. Matt and Lorie arethe only ones that maybe have let go

(35:22):
of whatever that driving force was thatthey were following. Yeah, I will
say the I do agree that Ithink it has a lot of significance here
in the moment. I do.I kind of like our explanation better from
last week. And this is justsort of like in the in the we
were speaking about the gr before,someone who wants to cause chaos or feels
that this is all worthless in theend, considering where we all might be

(35:43):
going that sure, I'll just launcha nuke in the random place in the
South Pacific. I didn't know ifit necessarily needs to be affiliated with trying
to destroy a seven headed Kaiju thathas yet to hatch from an egg.
But like you said, everyone hastheir belief, albeit the most ludicrous extremes.
Well, I mean, in thein the first episode of this season,

(36:06):
we have It's Dean, right,uh, you know, believing that
dogs are taking over these high levelpositions in the government to overthrow the world.
So I think it's appropriate in thecontext of what has been happening this
season. That's the threat of thisseventh year anniversary and everyone freaking out about

(36:27):
that, and also, so yougot that too correct correct. We then
go back to the Grace compound.Grace is seeing him. Laurie is chopping
a lot of carrots to help Gracemake her husband's stew um. Grace asked
if Kevin was a good husband.Laurie says, he was a great husband.
He saved her, but you divorcedhim. Well, I, Jona

(36:51):
Coult, it's what they made youdo U. Grace tells the story of
her kid's shoes, which was interesting. Wants Kevin to ask her her children
where they put their shoes. Graceputs her in charge of the stew and
she looks at Caleb's arthritis medicine.Mm hmm. You think she would start
putting that away or something, givenKevin Senior's use of it. It defeats

(37:15):
the purpose of the story. Though, I know this poor dog. All
pills are getting hoarded, and it'sI'm assuming that the nearest vet is probably
miles and miles away in the middleof nowhere, and this dog is probably
the ruler of Australia. Now,so yeah, exactly. Oh man,

(37:37):
yes, thank god Tommy Kildean orCaleb would be long gone. Um So
thoughts here on this shoe story justanother kind of um a person that's grieving,
that's focused on this one thing thatmaybe doesn't matter matter to her,
I know, goes back to thisidea once more of this is what Grace

(38:01):
sort of wants. I think theseshoes are represent a point of closure for
her to just find out to speakwith their children or to find out from
them like a confirmation. Almost theshoes are almost an empty promise, more
so just to inform her this iswhere they went and that they're okay.
Because such a tragic circumstance, becauselet's remember that the children did not depart,

(38:24):
correct, she must feel a heavyamount of guilt because as a result
of her beliefs that they did depart, she ended up unintentionally neglecting them to
the point of where they all diedtrying to get help. So she has
got to wonder how she lives withthat. Exactly. That's almost that we
almost worse than what Nora is goingthrough. Yeah, so, so the

(38:44):
least she could do is just likeask for any sort of sign that her
children have moved on in some capacityto make her sleep a little easier at
night without having to take some moredog pain pills. Also, there an
that's out there. They can that. Uh, you know, the dogs
get the really good pain medicine.I'll get all the sandwich, so yeah.

(39:07):
Um. We then go to theLast Supper. Um. Papa Garvey
says that much of the Last Supperare Jesus is absence um and missing some
apostles. Papa Garvey starts as signingroles, saying he's Peter John. You're
John Senior, asked Michael. He'sjust you know, he's been people over

(39:29):
the head with a shovel. Soasked Michael who he wants to be.
Michael doesn't seem too interested in it. Lauras Laurie says she must be married
Magdalen. Uh. Senior says,no, that's Nora. But you're doubting,
Thomas. When I heard voices,I told you and you said you
believe me. Next thing I knewI was in the mental institution, Laurie
says, that makes me the Judas. Doubting is easy. Judas knowing that

(39:50):
everyone thought Jesus was great, andhe still sold him out. You know,
he really believed in it. Um. Michael says he then committed suicide.
If he was so sure, whydid he commit suicide? Laurie says
she didn't know that part of thestory. How do you know that not
know that part of the story.Uh Senior passes out Michael too. Then
John Laurie has a wry smile atthe dog and says, I bared your

(40:14):
bills dogs, like I could I'vebeen paid over here. I like how
Papa Garvey when he said, yeah, I told you I was having voices,
you believe me. Then you threwbe you know, then I was
locked up. Yeah, little bitternesstowards uh Lourie there too. Well is
it towards Lorie though? Or isit towards somebody else? I mean,

(40:36):
do you think it was Loria's decisionto get him institutional? I think so.
No. I thought, I thinkyeah it was her. I mean
she probably he basically outward and saidit the way That's how I saw it
was she. He just said,I told you about this, you said
everything was fine, and the nextthing I know, I'm in the institution.
I think he knows it was her, and that's how she could pause
it and say or pivot and sayyes, then I'm then I'm the Judas

(40:57):
right well, and I guess thesure that's sort of shows the fallacy of
what she attempts to do to Kevina couple of episodes ago where she says,
you know, you don't tell someonewho's in the midst of a psychotic
breakdown that they're in the midst ofa psychotic breakdown. And while that may
be good on paper, from apsychological perspective, I think both these cases
show that when you do that,try to placate them without actually treating them,
there are bad consequences as a result. Yep. We then go to

(41:27):
Nora overlooking the departure machine. Wawait, wait, wait, wait one
mo more thing. I just wantto ask no offense to Laurie here because
it's a powerhouse of an episode forher. But who maybe this is me
being completely shortsighted, But who doesn'tknow that Judas Iscariot committed suicide. I
knew that maybe maybe she's being maybeshe's playing coy, maybe she's I I

(41:51):
think she just she didn't care.Again, I think most people know we
actually, but it did seem likesure, oh I didn't know that it
was that. It was weird.It was very weird. I will say,
maybe well I have out there andforgot it. Never mind. Um

(42:15):
uh and Jack again, I'm sorryfor the loss that you experienced this week
in your crack Brath theory. Uh, that's Matt was gonna be the Judas.
That was very It was like backto back though on this. You
know, I'll pour out my drink. Well, we got you got you
got a you know, well,I'm the Judas. I didn't know that

(42:37):
he committed suicide, but I'm theI'm sure Matt knew that Judas committed suicide.
Maybe maybe she's a little smoke inmirrors or maybe what she was intending
to do. Yeah, whatever yougot Nora looking over the departure machine.
Yeah whatever, that's kind of Noraoverlooking. I'll believe it when I see
it. You know, I couldhave a big box and say it's a
departure machine. Um, Laurie says, is this where you call the DSD

(43:00):
to shut this down? Nora respondswith this kind of moving story of Matt
and the stadium beach ball and howyou know, everybody just kind of took
him to things to try and helpthem, you know, in any way,
since their parents died, and theywent to this game and they were
tossing around the beach ball and youknow, Matt hit the beach ball and
the first time she saw him smile. And then since their parents died,

(43:24):
and then it fell in the aisleand the security guard, you know,
pop the beach ball, and everybodybooted him. And who would want that
job? Who would want the personthat would kind of ruin everybody else's fun?
And Laura responds, because if hedoesn't, that ball is going to
go onto the field and it willbe effing chaos. Laurie embraces Nora.

(43:45):
Nora tells her you can take thevan. I don't need it. Matt
is staying with Nora. People shouldbe with their families. Nora asked,
do you have to tell him whatI did? Laurie asked for a dollar.
She says, I only have hundredsthan chess for a pack of siggs
And when she gives her the cigarettes, she says, congrats to Noura Durst,

(44:06):
you're officially my patient. Uh.Nora says, same time next week
and Lorie responds, You're on abeautiful moving scene on many different levels.
One Nora and Lori having their moments, and then I think, you know,
the main thing here is Matt andkind of Nora in their momentary where

(44:28):
Matt's finally cares about being Norah's brother. It seems, well, yeah,
you have three great actors, greatscene. But can I just say something
about the beach balls that is absolutelyone percent true. I mean, Jake
could probably say the same thing.If you're ever at a game and you're
bouncing a beach ball, you havethis the usher security guard will take the
ball once he gets his hands onit and squeeze the life out of it.

(44:51):
There you go. But I guessit's the role they were born to
play. Apparently. Yeah, Imean, and everyone does them. I
can imagine, Yeah, they werein the I mean it happens at like
college graduations too. They try tolike inflate beach balls and throw them around.
It's trying to inflict some chaos amongstthe structural order that exists within those

(45:12):
types of ceremonies or events. ButI mean, Carrie Coon just shows what
an incredible actress she has such alimited role in this episode, but even
just the okay that she says toMatt after he says, you know,
I should be people should be withtheir families. It's so weighted just because
when you look at their relationship betweenthe two of them, and obviously the
history from being kids, and almostone what Matt's story said at the very

(45:35):
beginning of his very first episode,season one, episode three, the resentment
that he had toward her from thebeginning, and the strained relationship that they've
had through turbulent times. That wasalmost just like a very subtle indicator to
him of you know, we're coolnow. There are obviously bigger things at
hand. I'm ready to sort ofmove on from worrying about those people who

(45:57):
try to infringe upon others and youknow, try to harsh their grooves in
a way. Let me embrace whatI immediately have and just look over the
sunset. Yeah, it was.It was stunning to watch, Absolutely it
was. Um. We then goto Lorie and Kevin. Kevin arrives on
horseback justin throw on horseback fantastic visuals. Um asked if she helped Nora find

(46:25):
what she was looking for. Um. Kevin asked her that and ask where
everyone else is they're sleeping. Ijug their food. UM. I wanted
to talk to you alone and Ididn't think they would. Um. She's
not gonna convince him not to doit. Um. They share cigarettes and

(46:46):
secrets. Um. She let's himuse it. Don't forget me lighter is
what she talks about, you know, her throwing at the steerageing out,
don't tell Jill that. Um andthen U Kevin reciprocats with killing mister Fuzzy
aka mister Funny. And then shetalks about a spot trip, and then
Kevin talks about how he hated thehouse. And then she reveals her pregnancy

(47:12):
and how you know at sixteen weeksshe saw the baby there and then it
wasn't and she asked, you know, did you want another baby to Kevin.
He says no. She says Ididn't want one either. I didn't
want to tell you then I didn'thave to. Laurie asks him if he's
scared. Kevin responds, the lasttime I did this, I never felt
so alive. It was so real, it could work. I could come

(47:37):
back. He asks her to stay. She says she can't. Kevin offers
back her lighter. She says hecan keep it. She quits, which
you could take that and interpret itin many ways if you want to.
M Kevin asks if Laurie is gone, She says, We're all gone.

(47:57):
Kevin says goodbye, Laurie. Shesays goodbye Kevin, and um, beautiful
scene, beautiful, heart wrenching scene. Well, since they're being so honest,
why didn't Kevin say what he wasdoing at the time of the departure?
Okays, just trying to just tryingto point it out. This isn't
exactly like a quid pro quo.She sounds like, Okay, now you

(48:17):
tell me what you were doing.I remember those Yeah, boy, yeah.
This This was a fantastic scene andbrought, you know, a lot
of closure to their relationship. Wesaw from the Garves at their best that
it's clear that their relationship was,while on the surface, okay, fraught
with some difficulties, which I thinkwas Lorie's character overall, you know,

(48:38):
on this inside look. After theepisode, I know that Damon Lindeloff talks
about this really interesting trajectory with Lorieas the character as we see her on
season one, where she starts offsuper unsympathetic, our sort of window into
the gr But then as we findout more about her, we really see
that she was like an a normal, relatively normal person. But for some

(48:59):
reason, whether they're innerticks or thatyou know, fault lines were showing that
eventually opened wide up after the departure. There's a lot more going on there.
And so to have this closure comewith these two, even though they've
been separated for so long, wasreally really interesting, and there's almost like
a an amicable nature between the twoof them understanding, you know, what

(49:21):
exactly the stakes are. And likeanother fun example of providing explanations for things
with the whole mister Funny saga whereyou know, Kevin said, oh,
yeah, I lied about that.I said that, you know, he
had run away when actually he haddied. In this idea of you know,
possibly utilizing you know, a differenttype of rationale to help placate someone,

(49:43):
and Laurie just says like, oh, yeah, you should have told
the truth. I think that's alsoa microcosm for Laurie of her sort of
overall epiphany of yeah, providing anysaying things to make people feel better is
not necessarily something that is good forthe end game. Yeah, well I
have a question. He said heforgot to feed, was it, mister

(50:05):
Funny? Yes? How long werethey gone? They went to a conference,
so maybe they they were probably gonelike a few days, did and
the and the and the thing died. It's a hamster for two days.
It didn't eat for two days,and it died. It's not a snake.
It's a man for two days andthe thing died. Come on,
it's I mean hams, especially somethingthey only live like a year or two

(50:29):
years, so it kind of justdied. Oh so it probably died of
natural causes and he's just taken theblame for it. You like those little
hamsters, I think they only livelike a year or two years. Don't
really, that's it because there's solittle little things die quick. Big things
die quick. It's just that youwanted to be kind of you know,
average height as an Okay, gotit now, So now I don't feel
so bad for Kevin or forgetting forgettingto feed the hamster. I'm saying that

(50:51):
it's five to nine and not exceptionallytall. So yeah, see, do
you have a story you want totell? Jay? Were there any pets
that die when he was a kidthat now you want to let it all
out now that it's on the floor. No, I I actually feed all
the animals. So no, yeah, all the all the animals that died
during my tenure as being Jack's child. Um, we we had a pretty
solid explanation on their death. Yeahyeah, Um. I did have pet

(51:16):
mice though, and our pet catkilled both of them. Yeah, why
would you have mice when there's acat in the house. Because I actually
I wanted a pet turtle because turtlesmy favorite. What was what was the
cat's name? Well can I soI let me tell the full story.
So, um, wanted a turtle, really wanted a turtle, and the
pet store is sold out of turtles. So like my my consolation prize was

(51:37):
these two mice, which is sofun, which was cool, but wait,
it's something I didn't want. Yeah, because people that may or may
not know this, but Jack isdefinitely afraid of my soul, like,
don't like them, don't like likejump up on the table screaming afraid.
I'm the guy jumping I'm the womanjumping out of the guy. You know.
The TV though we showed the womanjump on the table that's me um

(51:58):
and uh so Jack hated though.And uh so I had a pet cat
as well that I got when Iwas five years old. She was an
amazing cat. Um and my fiveyear old self named her mouse. Um
ah. And so my pet catkilled a great cat. It was like
a dog. Yeah, she wasa great cat. And uh so my

(52:21):
pet cat mouse killed my pet mice. That's the story. Well, it
was like three o'clock in the morning, wasn't it. It was something like
she knocked over the cage. I'mlike, I knew this would happen.
I'm gonna go back to sleep anyways, So rest in peace, mice.
I don't remember what I named thosemice. But anyway, um, dinner.

(52:47):
But you have a cat named mouse, what's gonna happen? Uh But
let's talk about the finality of justthis, the interaction between two of them.
It definitely felt like this it wasgoodbye on both accounts. You know,
Kevin's gonna go die presumably, andfor Laurie it definitely felt like she
was you know, this was agoodbye because it was a great scene.

(53:09):
Yeah, because there's scenes together alwaysbeen kind of you know, angry.
A lot of you know, alot of anger both ways, but this
was it was a nice scene.Yeah, and there's clearly a lot of
history in their relationship. Quite obviouslythey had a relationship for a sustained number
of years, but I think theyalso know each other so well as people

(53:29):
that it is sort of like they'renodding simultaneously to each other while going off
on their separate directions to conquer theirseparate task, which is so interesting that
you know, it seems like Laurie'spath that's going in one direction, and
we're going to see next week whatKevin's direction is going to lead into.
But it yeah, it's just it'sso it's heavy for a variety of reasons,

(53:51):
but there's also so much contextual informationin there that it makes it a
very meaty scene too much like anice mouse. Well, Laurie knows him
well enough to know the craps fourtimes a day, so yeah, yeah,
Okay, it's like anybody you're marriedto for a signftant amount of time.
There's just there's like this tipping pointin the scale of the relationship where
you kind of go beyond just youknow, two lovers, so to speak.

(54:15):
You kind of become even you wantto know more about that person than
anybody else would probably never that personexactly. And I think it's the same
for a divorce couples, to whetheryou divorce amicably or not, there's just
there is still probably that connection betweentwo people. Well, you're around someone
twenty seven, you're gonna know,You're gonna know the best of that person

(54:35):
and the worst of it. There'sthe third time. And then we have
the last scene of the episode.Laurie is on a boat on a boat
with mister Mitch Friendly. Uh yeah, getting ready to go Scoop to take
your boy always in Texas. Nevermind, we're gonna need to take a

(54:55):
boy. Um. She's getting readyto go scuba diving quote unquote. Um,
there's a storm coming in the massflood assuming Um. And she gets
a call from Jill and Tommy.Um, Jill wants to know, you
know what the name of Um thiskids show that she made them all watch
over and over and over again.Um, Jimmy seem to be having fun

(55:20):
together. Um. She kind ofhangs up, the call ends, the
call, Um says, Hey,it's coming, it's now or never.
She kind of looks up. Shehas this sense he wasn't that friendly.
No, no, um, andshe has this sense of peace, you
know, she looks in the sky, just kind of smile, and then
she kind of puts on the scoobygear and jumps in, and there's just
kind of this a moment of wherewe just see the empty boat. You

(55:45):
know, whether it's still the Captainor river there, but you kind of
see the empty boat and just hearingthe water. And then it closes out
the episode and we keep hearing thewater, nobody getting out of the water.
But um, someone on our Facebookpage made a good point. It
was just like it was silent,just like the gr mm. Yeah,
she opens and closes the episode beingsilent, right. I wish I could.

(56:07):
I wish I had it, ButI remember reading that last night or
this morning. It just clicked,like I apologize whoever said it. Congrats
Now, Jack, can you informus a little bit about Today's Special.
I've heard of it before, butI've never seen a wink of it.
Today's Special. So Today's Special isthe show that they were talking about.

(56:28):
I know it's a it's a kidshow that ared and liked the eighties and
maybe the nineties. I'm not trusta real show. Yes, Today's Special
is I believe it's a Canadian children'sshow and the concept is that there is
this department store and there is thismannequin that like sleeps during the day,
but at night it comes alive.And the characters I believe are the the

(56:52):
the anthropomorphic mannequin. There's like aworker at the department store, there's a
puppet security guard, and there's amouse. So it was a kid show
that I think it aired in Canadain the eighties and nineties. What isn't
that a movie with Kim Katrelle AndI thought it was Mannequin? Was the
movie Kill? And there's a morekid friendly version of Mannequin? Actually,

(57:14):
I think I think I've seen thisshow as a kid. I I was,
I was, I was an adultthen, so I don't know.
I think actually, if they did, they aired on Nickelodeon, like yeah,
I'm sure they did it, andand it pervaded the US airwaves at
some point. I do know.I saw something on Twitter that I think
it was a response actually to AlanSepinwall's review of the episode, that if
you watch the opening credits to Today'sSpecial, they have an effect where when

(57:37):
the mannequin changes into a person.His silhouette kind of just like disappears,
and there's a starry sky behind it, much like the opening credits of The
Leftovers. Oh, I thought,I apologize. I thought you were making
a joke and I wasn't getting it. No, no, but yes,
I can confirm I did watch TodaySpecial. I feel like it was on

(57:58):
Nickelodeon back in the day when Nickelodeonwas basically just re airing Canadian kids shows
like uh uh, what's that onetelevision? Yeah? Um, but Dudley
do Right, No, no,no, the Western Way Ski Marinki,
Didnky didnk Skid Marine, Sharon andLewis and Bram Elephant show. Yep,

(58:22):
that was on there. Um it'sgood times, good times in the age.
I know, the Australian show Skippythe Push Kangaroo. That's all I
know. Pre pre Rugrats, Nickelodeonwas a different place, a different place.
Um. And where was the guywith the football head? Um?
That's hey Arnold, Arnold, HeyArnold, Hey Arnold? Um all rights?
Uh? Any any of it?I mean we've talked a lot of

(58:43):
this episode. Any any final thoughtsbefore we move on to listen to feedback.
Well, at that point, I'msorry, at that point you just
heard from your kids. Do yougo through with it? Maybe she feels
like they're gonna be okay, likethey're okay. She isn't. That's the
thing. And then that's what Ilove about it is I feel like in
any other cliche environment outside of TheLeftovers, she would hear her kid's voices
and say, this isn't worth it. I have something to live for.

(59:06):
I need to not go under orlet me just go on a fun sco
Scooba trip. But I think thatthe interesting sort of take on this,
and this is why The Leftover issuch an interestingly written show, is that,
like you said, Jay, itends up working in Laurie's favor,
and that she says like, Okay, you know, the only thing that
I have left tangentially connected to thisplane of existence are these kids. It

(59:29):
seems like they're their own people now, they're having fun. They're clearly in
a good place despite all the crazystuff that my husband, my ex husband,
and I put them through. Bythe way, I know we were.
We were mourning, you know,Jill and Tommy Garvey last episode.
So how do we at least stopthem through the voiceover. That was nice.
So this might also be the lasttime we hear from them this season.

(59:51):
But yeah, I think it wasa confirmation to her of you know,
you don't need to do any otherthings here on this earth. Everything
has go ahead. It's not likeanother show. I won't spoil it where
they he hears from his daughter andsays, Okay, I'm not gonna blow
myself up. Oh spoiler, Idon't mean yeah, I thinking of that

(01:00:13):
one. But for those that no, well, Mike said, it wasn't
cliche. And I'm saying because youknow, you hear, like you said,
most shows, if the daughter andson had called, your child calls
and you're about ready to commit suicide, you I can't do this. I
still have my kids. Um.And I think that's what makes this show
so beyond anything else, and especiallywith what it deals with, and that

(01:00:36):
uh, it isn't it doesn't playto the cliche. Um And it doesn't.
That's that's the point I was tryingto make. Um. And out
of all I think there's been alot of really good episodes of season.
I think this, in my opinion, is the high point of the season
so far. Yeah, I wouldsay so. I mean, it's been
a very interesting set of conceptual episodesbetween the Kevin Garvey Senior episode, very

(01:00:59):
polarized, the third episode, thefourth episode really blew up more in more
ways than one, and including theNora Kevin relationship. Last episode I thought
was really strong in terms of Matt'scrisis of faith, and we get a
Lorie sort of send off here withonly two episodes left, I have no
idea if we're going to have timeto do any more memorials to these characters.

(01:01:21):
So, I mean, I knowI say this every episode, but
we have no idea what's coming upnext. But that makes it so exciting.
But if this is the last timewe see Lorie Garvey on this show,
I'll personally be satisfied. I feellike she got a little bit of
a short shrift in season two,specifically with those only she only had a
couple of episodes since she was separatedfrom the action. But you know,

(01:01:42):
I feel like the character had suchan interesting philosophy and such an interesting place
in this world that to have hergo out sort of content with this idea
that I don't need to be incontrol, I don't need to provide these
explanations. I'm willing to let themystery be is poetic. Yeah, it's
this the first time, it's justa first out. I'll say for myself
that I actually liked her because you'resaying no, because because f you,

(01:02:07):
Lorie was like I think it was. We were. It wasn't just Kevin
saying it was, we were allsaying it. Yeah. Well, well
yeah, because because Lorie was sortof, as we mentioned before when Nora
was alluding to with the beach ballruin her, she was sort of the
wet blanket. She was the onethat to always come in and be like,
no, no, no, thisis not what's going on. Uh.
It seemed like it seemed like hertoom was changing even a little bit
though when she was, you know, with John, sort of like knowing

(01:02:30):
people over a bit by providing them, you know, false readings just to
make them feel better. I feeleven then she was sort of dipping her
toes in the water in a way, And now she's fully submersed herself of
this idea of you know, maybeI don't need to necessarily provide the rational
explanation behind everything. Well, eventhe opening scene, will you see we

(01:02:52):
you know, we had, likeI said, in the beginning, we
knew that she probably the her herchild onborn child departing, and she's you
know, her seeing it in theultrasound a lot to do with her joining
the gr you can see why,you know, you know, probably like
you said earlier, just everyone comingin, they're wanting answers and she didn't
have them. Someone who always hasthe answers she didn't have, and you
can see why. She just Ithink Jay you said it, she just

(01:03:13):
said, all right, I'm gonnajoin the JR. So I don't have
to talk, not to say anythinganymore. So yeah, I just I
did. I just think it justit was just a build up and even
season two she's slowly starting to geton our good side. But after today,
I was like, I like her. And it's only when she kind
of let go of trying to bethat person that maybe that she wasn't that

(01:03:34):
you know, we felt the characterkind of was at peace. Yeah,
she she had nothing left to sayin more ways than one. Right,
Yeah, correct, All right,well that's what we had to say about
this episode. Now timing, whatdo you guys thoughts? It's time for
something listener feedback. What do youguys say? We can under those here
we go listen right, it's listenerfeedback time. Have a few emails to

(01:04:02):
jump into today for a listener feedback. This first one is from Vicky.
Hi, guys, I think thatLori has killed herself. Norah planted the
idea on how best to do it, and she did it. The fact
that people will probably see it asan accident doesn't quite mesh with how I
view it. Wouldn't people be asking, especially John, why did she decide

(01:04:23):
to go out scuba diving right beforethe anniversary of the departure and the chance
that there might be a flood.This might put another death on John.
I don't know how he will handleit. Although we have two episodes left,
we might not get time or getto the time John finds out.
I wonder if Nora tried to goto see her kids in the machine.
The machine exists, but Nora doesshow up at the finale, right because

(01:04:46):
we Nora does want to go onthis machine. But we see her,
you know, presumably in the futureunder a different name. So it's a
good question the fake Yeah, um, I now now think that Matt did
instead go to the machine. Ifit exists, he is dying. He

(01:05:06):
is nothing to lose. Maybe hedid it to stay with Norah. Maybe
he told her that he will talkto Nora's children for her, which could
ease her mind. Oh that's aninteresting twist. I like that. I
like that man. And now wouldbe some nice closure for Matt as well,
because again, the guy who thoughthe was so selfless but actually was
very selfish and really pushing out hisimmediate family. This would be a great

(01:05:29):
way for him to sort of,you know, make up for that by
saying, you know, I'm goingto take this sacrifice. I will do
what you cannot and go through topossibly see your children. Does he does
he lead behind a beach ball.No, that's what comes back. Okay
and my brother the beach ball.Oh man, um uh hey guys.

(01:05:58):
And she has a ps Hey,guys, what is going on with the
woman who killed Kevin, the policechief Grace and the missing shoes. She
said, we're not with the children'sbodies and nowhere to be found. I
don't know what do you guys think. I think she's just it's traumatic.
I think we said earlier, she'sshe has to live with the fact that
her children died because she thought theydeparted. But they didn't depart, They

(01:06:20):
were just died trying to, youknow, be rescued. I think kangaroo
stole them. I put them intheir pouch. Well, you ever seen
the move the hit Jerry O'Connell,Anthony Anderson filmed Kangaroo. Jack. Kangaroo's
wearing a jacket. I don't seewhy kangaroo can't take a bunch of kids'
shoes. The kangaroo let the kidsdie, but took their shoes. Oh

(01:06:45):
wow. But there was something inhere that um about John, not about
John. I don't think he saidit's gonna have on John, because I
ever gonna find He's never gonna findout because the storm is coming, and
I think that I think probably Johnwill probably I think they're gonna die.
So I don't think that they'll evenknow that Lorie. It'll never come up

(01:07:06):
that she committed suicide. So you'resupporting at a fled is going to happen?
Jack, Well, I think itis interesting. I mean, I
think we'll find out as soon asnext week. I mean we were talking
yesterday about like, okay, threedays until the big anniversary. What's going
to happen, but it seemed likethe timeline got pushed up even so considerably.

(01:07:26):
There's still two episodes left, butit looks like it's it's the day
of the show, y'all tomorrow.Who knows what's going to happen. I
do think that Vicky brought up agood point with John though, and that
I mean, Lorie did close upa lot of loops with a lot of
these people and their relationships, butJohn, I feel like it's still the
big one that was left out there. I mean that was her husband of
a few years, and she theyhad a little bit a conversation where she

(01:07:50):
said, you know, I thinkyou need to keep doing this. You're
so close. But she never officiallysaid goodbye to him like she did Kevin.
She drugged him and then left himbehind to go, you know,
her own stuff. So I dowonder how he's going to feel about that.
But maybe he's just gonna be soinfluenced by Laurie's final words with him
again of just keep going, thathe's going to keep his eyes on the
task at hand. I think Ithink that for them, for for the

(01:08:12):
both of them, is her goodbyeright saying you need to keep going forward.
Is that's the goodbye that works forthe two of them versus somebody else.
Plus, if the storm is coming, he's not gonna have time to
even think about right he wakes up. Lorie's drug giving. He wakes up,
He goes, oh, of coursehe could be turned back into angry
John without Lorie there. You don'tknow, we don't know. Um all

(01:08:38):
rights. This next email from everybody'sfavorite email or Ethan. Uh, I
see you guys, same time nextweek, Ethan. So wow. Episode
hits Ethan in a hard way tohit some people very hard. That's all
he said. That's all I said. I see guys. And then the

(01:09:00):
thing is that's that's the best spentit. Well. Last thing about this
episode two is that you know,I've seen a lot of different reactions to
this episode, and I think it'sunderstandable concerning that. I think suicide is
something that has a wide variety offeelings across a wide variety of people.
There are some that have had theunfortunate displeasure of having their family member or

(01:09:27):
a loved one commits suicide or someoneclose to them attempts suicide. There are
some sections out there people who believethat, you know, suicide is a
selfish act. Some believe that,you know, it might be an end
to a means in some sort ofway. I've been fortunate enough and that
you know, as of this moment, there has not been anyone close to
me in my life who has takentheir own life. But I can absolutely

(01:09:49):
imagine that everyone has ramifications that sortof reverberates to their real life. This
could strike very close to home withthem. Yeah, agreed. You had
some comments on our Facebook group tothe to the same effect. Um,
so again, it just uh,very very moving, and it definitely seems

(01:10:11):
to move well most well, mostpeople will say that it's it's the it's
the people left behind. They havethe toughest time with it. I mean,
it's just it's I mean, youcouldn't be there. Your answer is
what could I have done? Different? What could you do? And I
don't think there's really a lot youcan do in that situation. Yeah,
I mean, at that point,it's it's it really has nothing to do
with you, you know, Um, I would say in most cases,

(01:10:34):
but that yeah, and then thatway, and then there's also the whole
thing about Yeah, those that areleft behind. You know, are they
gonna blame themselves? They'll say like, should I have noticed something? Should
I have done something? And youcan only imagine. I don't think we're
going to have the time to dealwith those repercussions. You know, if
this whole cataclysm wasn't happening and Jilland Tommy find out, how are they

(01:10:55):
going to react? How is someonelike John going to reactive? He's not
focusing on this. That would besomething for another type of show, but
that that's also something that goes alongwith the with the action of a suicide.
Um. These next couple of emailsare from last week's episodey didn't make
any time for the podcast. Thiswas from CCW just saying, HBO orgies,

(01:11:16):
women with women, women with men, multiple women with one with one
man. But never ever, ever, do any man who like man get
into these those orgies. Guess isa straight man's man's world. Enjoying the
podcast and thrilled Mike is with youagain. I agree, Mike is fantastic.
Other guy agreeing about the orgies.Yeah, I mean and and and

(01:11:39):
the orgies they generally do they don'tshowcase. I think I think I did
see if you go back and lookat it. I did. I thought
I did see Guy on guy.I'm pretty sure there was. There was.
Yeah, everyone was. I'm prettysure I saw guy on guy.
Well, if we can get somescreencaps in and we'll post them on the

(01:12:00):
face. Now you just take myword for it. Um. Yeah,
but yeah, I mean I ifif that is the case, I do
think it should be equal opportunity.Uh, hedonism. I think that's only
fair. It should be up tothe writers and directors and producers to decide
what they want to do. Um. But if you're gonna have orgies,

(01:12:20):
at least that ud be representative ofeverything. Maybe maybe maybe we'll have one
by the end. Maybe it's truelast episode or all these male characters,
all the apostles that are left,we're gonna figure out that's the last thing
they need to do to stop theflood. Um, I'm okay with it.

(01:12:41):
I'm okay with the water. Igot a boat back here, I'll
be good all right. Uh Hey, guys emailing from Brighton, UK,
Hope I have sent this in timeto make the podcast not last week,
but this week. You have madeit entire So is it just me or
is last night's Sunday Leftovers have alot of links to Lost. Do you

(01:13:05):
think in some way this Leftovers worldis within the universe? So we met
David Burton, who is calling himselfGod, who died rock climbing, didn't
come out of cave alive and wellon top of that, in season two
Kevin's International Assassin episode, as weknow, Kevin had to push a child,
Patty, down a well in theso called afterlife clutching at stars.

(01:13:30):
Maybe However, what if crackpot theory, those who were taken were all the
people the island has taken as atest and juck just like Lost. When
Kevin was at the hotel after hisdeath, this was his purgatory and the
tail Leftovers is an anagram as ananagram spells lost lever h m, what

(01:13:51):
is the season? Finally? Oh? What if the season finale is Kevin
waking up on the island? Howmental would that be? Okay, the
good work, and let me knowif you two think the Leftovers and Loss
are more in common than this,Hannah? Did you had you guys heard

(01:14:12):
about that Leftovers Lost lover anagram thing? No? Oh, I hadn't.
That's the first time I sard thatreading that email, How would you so,
how would you feel as as thebiggest lost fans that I have ever
known? How would you feel ifthey ended up allah spoiler alert for new
Heart, I believe Bob Newhart wakesup as his character in The Bob Newhart

(01:14:33):
Show and that Succom was an entiredream on the half of the character.
How would you feel about those twoshows connecting randomly in the final scene of
the final episode. I'd be okaywith it. You know, there's like
negative jays who would be like,oh no, I mean, I don't
think I don't think it's necessary.Plus, I think it's just one of
those like Damon just needs to avoidthe twist endings here and just stick with

(01:14:58):
you know, a good conclusive conclusionto this. Well, this series,
Like Hannah said that you have theyou know, the similarities last week,
Mike, I think you were talkingabout how John Locke and Matt were similar
character So you do have you haveyou have a lot of similarities between the
shows. But here's the question.Two more episodes, will they be able

(01:15:20):
to have it as like carry Coonsaid, a satisfying ending. Well,
I think if they did, likeyou said, I don't think it's satisfying.
Ending the Leftovers verse is a twistladen ending. Did I think that.
I think it's unfortunate because I thinkwith the associated with association with lost,
people are waiting for this other shoeto drop in a way, but

(01:15:42):
much like Grace's children, this shoehas disappeared coming back, you know,
it's it's I don't think that thisshow is never going to be like,
oh and here's the big reveal.You know, there might be some elements
like what the gr did with themannequins or Evie's disappearance that are long term
mysteries that have payoff, but Ifeel like that's different from saying and then

(01:16:03):
this big reveal happens. I don'tthink that's the way the show's going to
end. Well, I don't.I don't think anyone was calling for saying
that Laurie was go commit suicide.Some might have if depending on the few
Laurie i'd be more like a murder. But I just I just it just
this show is he said, what'syour crackpot theory? I don't know.

(01:16:25):
I mean this it's it's a guessinggame. At this point. They're they're
doing such a great job of keepingyou off balance that you don't know what's
going to happen. Well, speakingof your crackpot theory, it is time
for Jack's crackpot theory. Ethan doesn'thave another email theory of the week action,
Jackson, what do you got forus this week? Wow? Okay?

(01:16:47):
Since everything was shot down in thisepisode, I mean almost everything was
shot down in this episode, butbasic continue to move forward instead of giving
up. I mean, at leastthey could have done has done it for
the finale? So close, Jack, You're so close? Okay. We
had the opening scene with with ofseason one with Nora on the bike and

(01:17:09):
she's got she's getting the notes fromthe pigeons, right yea, And we
don't we don't. We don't actuallysee the notes from the pigeons, do
we. He's putting a pile,the big bucket of pile there, yep.
And the nun goes, who's who? You know? Kevin? She
says, No, I'm gonna saythe notes are from Kevin. Okay,
and why why not? No?I can't come on, get back up

(01:17:31):
your theory here, because because Kevindidn't seem to have when he was talking
to talking to Uhlrie about Nora.He did seem he still has feelings for
her, So I think he's stillhe still wants to reach out to her.
From what the afterlife? From?I don't pigeons? Can pigeons fly
from the hotel to U to thewherever Nor is? Remember Jack, it's

(01:17:55):
it's not Jack's crackpot hypothesis of theweek, it's your theory of the week.
So let's back it up here?What beyond? So like, do
I have to back it up tellingI'm telling you that's it's a fact.
That's what's gonna happen. Well,why would they show Nora? And why
would she say she doesn't know Kevin? Why would Why is it? Why
is the nun asking if you knowKevin? Because there could could Kevin be

(01:18:20):
in the notes? Not necessarily,I think you're alluding to, like his
signature would read Kevin, But maybethere's things about Kevin in the messages.
There you go, that's even better, that's even better. Take that's called
the track cot theory, hot taketheory of the week. God, come

(01:18:40):
on, give me a break aboutthis show. This show's impossible. No,
it's not all right, it's impossible. Back me up on this,
Mica to this section now I willsign off on it all right, Well,
that will do it for this week'sIt's not my fault. I was
crying through half the episode. It'dbe Come on, Oh was it Toy

(01:19:02):
Story Jack, your big baby?No, this was You weren't getting emotional
during this course? It was veryemotional. You used to make fun of
me for crying all the time.Um, that will do it for this
week. If you wait, no, wait, you cried during a toy
movie. Toy Story three is emotional. Some kid has to give up his
toys. Oh well you had togrow up more than boo boo hoo.

(01:19:25):
These people are dying. Um,if you can call it three eight five
three o nine zero three eleven,what's against three eight five three zero three
eleven? Time with your questions,comments, and or theories series. Also
send us an email to Leftovers JJat gmail dot com. Was against Leftovers

(01:19:47):
JJ at gmail dot com. Joinour Facebook, Facebook dot com, slast
group, slash Jay and Jack group. If you have anything you'd like to
purchase, you could probably purchase iton Amazon. And if you're gonna use
Amazon dot com, use our linkJay and Jack dot com slash Amazon.
A small percentage of those sales'll gearon Amazon. UM. All of the

(01:20:12):
Jane Jack production podcasts are listeners supported, and it's through your listener support that
we are able to do these shows. If you would like to become a
contributor or patron over at our patreondot com slash Jay and Jack page.
Go to Jane Jack dot com,click on the become a patron link and
contribute whatever you can. There's differentlevels, whether at five dollars, fifteen
dollars, one dollar, whatever,there's different levels UM, and at each

(01:20:35):
of those levels, there's special awardsto thank you for being a patron of
our podcasts UM and helping make thempossible. UM. Speaking of the other
podcast, there's a lot of otherones out there right now. Survivor is
has its finale coming up this week, UM, so check out a Survivor
with Jay, Jack and Colleen UM. Mike is doing a fantastic Fargo podcast

(01:21:00):
with Jeremiah Panhorse with Fargo with Jeremiahand Mike. How many more episodes of
for Fargo right now? We justgot halfway through, so five episodes left
of that. Having a great timewith Jeremiah. They're really climactic anything.
This most recent episode that things setthings up very nicely for the second half,
so I look forward to jumping backinto that at the end of this

(01:21:23):
week. Oh sounds good, umbroadcast. They actually tying it into Mike's
world. The Wonderful Angela Mike's wife, Angela Bloom. Actually the Angela changed
her last name to Bloom. Shedid, she did, so there you
go. It's her her maiden namesPelagian. It's so much easier to spell.
Yeah. Well, she joins thebroadcasters. They released two episodes last

(01:21:46):
week, one talking a lot aboutthe kind of podcast weekend that we had,
and then they also did a specialepisode on Big Little Lies. If
you enjoyed that series on HBO,I did. I loved it was fantastic.
I still have I still haven't watchedit. Yeah, that that's I
think that's gonna be my next seriesto watch once Leftovers is finished. I

(01:22:08):
purposely like put off not watching itjust because I knew I had to.
I was been pounding Leftovers episodes inpreparation for the third season. But I'm
I'm willing to dive into it.I saw like bits and pieces of it,
but it seems interesting enough. I'mnot gonna say Angela tod Craft about
you not watching it, but shedid, I have to be fair if
you're if you're like I said,I'm I'm four episodes behind on On far

(01:22:30):
Ago, and I'm five episodes behinda better call Saul. Well, I
would say, so far this season, Big Littleize some of the best TV.
I've watched the season up there withleftovers the season, but really really
enjoyed it. Um and they dida great job to jumping into out of
feedback and stuff they got for that. Um. Also, the Married Man

(01:22:51):
Show has been cranking out the episodesum as always. But the question,
the question is will the name staythe Married Man Show. I'm in favor
of keeping it. I feel likethis is a New Coke situation. But
that's just my opinion. Well,it's you've been out voted. I know,
I know, I I well,you know. It's funny. I

(01:23:13):
just threw it out there real quick, and Nick and Chris now have never
responded to any one of my thingsever so quick. It was like seconds
later. It's a very trump response. Nobody's ever responded the responded the fastest
ever responded. It's the best waswhat was I right? Of course Jay
never respond exactly. That's just howI roll. Um. Also Owen and
Barus Barbecue. There's a new episodecoming out soon of uh the Star Wars

(01:23:40):
podcast on a jaanea network U andactually I joined that podcast. It was
a lot, a lot of fun. Did you put did you put down
which? Yes? Did you putdown the Zelda game long enough to record
it? No? Zelda to behad enjoyed a geeking out with some fellow
geeks. Um, it was alot of fun, a lot a lot

(01:24:00):
of fun. So we talk aboutsome of the latest news in the Star
Wars world and what is the bestorder to watch Star Wars in wou start
you start with a new hope.Well, Jack, you'll have to listen
to find out when the next episodeof Owen Brews Barbecue comes out. All
right, Well that is It's allof those podcasts you can find on Jane

(01:24:21):
jack dot com slash iTunes. Wehave an iTunes page. You can see
all of them listed on there,including some that should be coming up,
like Game of Thrones with Jay,Jack and Nick and I assume West World
will be back at some point intime. So Mike Jack and I can
talk about that fantastic show. Justbefore this show recorded, Mike, Jack
and I were talking about, well, what's gonna be our fall shows?

(01:24:42):
I don't think Westwood's coming back intime for the fall. But anyone has
any suggestions about the summer? Right? Are there any summer shows? Game
of Thrones? No, I mean, but something that we would do.
Yeah, well, we can definitelyfigure out. I feel like we might
have missed the boat on American Gods. I feel like that would have been
good one. But if y'all haveany suggestions out there of upcoming summer and

(01:25:04):
fall shows that sort of fall intothis type of environment of shows that like
to be talked about on the JaneJack Network, that love to be dissected
in eating up, feel free tolet us know something that might be The
crack butt theories are kind of easyto come up with. I think Jack,
she's gotten old and tired, allright? That we'll do it for

(01:25:25):
this week's episode. Will see younext week. Austa Luega, do you
thank you? Thank did you thankthree patrons? I didn't? Do you
want to think of Jack at thistime? I could think Eckart Rigger,
Glasfilter Molly Millennial and Chack from Tokyo. Thanks for doing what you do.
Vuonda bar all right again, thankyou for everybody and we'll see you guys

(01:25:47):
next time. Austa luego and goodbye, bye, bye bye

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The Leftovers with Jay, Jack + Mike: Ep. 3.06 "Certified"

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