The Leftovers with Jay, Jack + Mike: Ep. 3.03 "Crazy Whitefella Thinking"

Jay and Mike are joined by special guest host AJ Mass to talk about season 3, episode 3, “Crazy Whitefella Thinking.” Join their Facebook page at www.facebook.com/groups/jayandjackgroup. Become a Jay and Jack Patron! Check out their Patreon page for more information at www.patreon.com/jayandjack. Subscribe (MP3) l Become a Patron l Join Our Facebook Group

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hebrone. Welcome to Leftovers with jJack and Mike. My name is Jay,
my name is Mike. And joiningus this week in place of Jack
is mister A J. Mass.Hey, how's it going, guys?
I think it's only appropriate that thisis someone that nobody there has ever heard
on this podcast before, because,you know, we had an episode with

(00:21):
characters that nobody has ever seen before. Well, a little bit behind the
scenes information for our listeners out there. I actually just did a week long
rain song and AJ came. Idon't know exactly what connotation that means,
but I'm happy to have him here. Yes, an interesting episode. I

(00:42):
I really enjoyed it, but itdefinitely, you know, leave it to
Damon Lindelof and Crude is to kindof throw a curveball out there in its
last season in following the story ofmister Kevin Senior. But excited to be
here talking about it and very excitedto have the fantastical A. J.
Mass joined the show, first timeguesting on any of the Jane Jack production

(01:07):
podcasts. But for those me I'veever heard you before, AJ, you
want to give a quick rundown ofwhy you're amazing, Well, I am
amazing because I used to be misterMatt. I mean, really, you
don't need any more than that,I don't think. Yeah, I was
mascot for the Dirk Quest for fouryears. I am a writer for ESPN
dot com. I cover fantasy sports, particularly baseball, I being at Baseball

(01:30):
season now. I've written two books, one called How Fantasy Sports Explains the
World, one called Yes It's Hotin Here, which is a history of
mascots. And I podcast a lotabout TV shows, Uh, Survivor and
whatnot with Rob Sister Nino and theRob has a podcast crew, and Mike
and I have been podcasting a reallyfun movie podcast called The Hamster Factor for

(01:53):
the past year or so. SoI'm there on the internets. Is awesome,
awesome, We'll excited to have youhere, excited to talk about the
leftovers, and just after last week, which kind of ended on you know,
killing this officer Kevin into where weare with this week's episode, where

(02:15):
are your guys? As kind ofinitial feelings here on episode three, because
episode three is always kind of likea bit of a pivot shift in terms
of like a character story bitline.Yeah, this is definitely I think one
of the more polarizing episodes in theLeftovers tenure, and it definitely is one
of the more polarizing episodes to comeout of The Leftovers. I did not

(02:37):
watch International Assassin Live like you guysmight have, so I have no idea
what the crowd reaction was at thetime, but very very divided reactions to
this episode after it premiered. Therewere some that we're saying, this is
boring, this is dragging on.Why are we focusing on this? I
hate this? There were some thatwe're saying, I love this. You
know, we really get to getdeep down to what was going on with

(02:58):
Kevin Senior. I saw a lotof comparisons for you Lost Lovers out there
to the maligned episode Across the Seawhere Alison Janny served as a mother to
Jacob and the Man in Black,and I could sort of understand where they're
coming from in terms of the episodeplacement in that in the Lost chronology.
Spoiler alert for Loss. But ifyou're listening to a Jane Jack podcast and

(03:19):
you haven't seen Lost, what thehell are you doing with your life?
It happens, you believe or not, but still, yeah, it is
rare, but essentially what happens isthere's this episode in season six where Said
blows himself up, Jin and Sonend up dying. It's a huge mess
with a bunch of our main charactersending up, you know, moving over
to the other side, to thatgreat, big church somewhere else, and

(03:40):
then the next episode takes a breakfrom that action to focus on this entirely
different story with a set of differentcharacters. I could kind of see where
they're coming from with that argument,But I will say from what I've been
gauging in terms of the reaction online, I enjoyed this episode more than others.
Is it my favorite episode of theLeftovers? Not whatsoever, But I
think there was a lot to mineout of this If for anything, Scott

(04:02):
Glenn is so mesmerizing as an actor, and I was so happy they gave
him a full hour long venue todisplay his skills. Considering that, yeah,
Kevin Senior Papa Garves has really onlybeen in sporadic parts of the previous
two seasons, I think there's alot of connections to be made of the
overall theming of faith, which I'msure we're going to be talking about.

(04:23):
There's some connections back to the mainstory and the last ten minutes you might
disparage like the first fifty, butthe last ten minutes are really top notch.
So I'm a bigger fan of thisepisode than I think a lot of
the internet populace is. Yeah,now I would agree, like, really
the payoff of that was really good, and I think there is some nuggets

(04:46):
in there that might be relevant tothe greater storyline. AJ, what do
you think? Well, Mike,you know you and I quite sympetico here
because I was going to make allthe Ellison, Jenny and Across the Sea
jokes and references, So do youbeat me to it? I think for
me the I was. I hadthose fears that this was going to turn
into that when it started, butit did not. And I think for

(05:11):
me, Across the Sea was moreof a complete retcon of the plot,
trying to shoehorn all the loose threadsthat they could and try. It really
felt more of a let's try andexplain away the last few things that we
really can explain away and just forcethem in there. This episode for me
felt a lot more like it wasfilling in the blanks and really giving you

(05:35):
a different perspective and from a thematicstandpoint of the Leftovers. From the beginning,
it's always been about how do youoperate under the perspective that you have
with the knowledge that you have,and we as the audience, it was
really cool because we have more knowledgethan the characters in this episode, and
it's one of the few times thatI think that we've had that in this

(05:58):
series. Usually we're in the darkmuch more so than the characters, and
for once we are, we aremuch more in the know, and I
think it was refreshing to kind ofsee the show from that angle. We'll
get into it a little bit morelater on we go see by scene,
but I think that was my overalltake on it, that like it was
filling in the blanks nicely rather thantrying to, you know, just go

(06:19):
to the beginning and give you somethingthat we were shoehorning in. That being
said, how do you guys feelabout the arguments some of the naysayers have
been mentioning about, how, youknow, we have a final season of
this show, a show that's reallyfull of a rich tapestry of fantastic three
dimensional characters, and we have suchlimited road in front of us. We're

(06:40):
only doing eight episodes we've already donetoo to decide to take one of these
eight episodes to concentrate on a characterthat has really been tangential to things for
the previous two seasons. I mean, I didn't want to put ourselves in
the place of being in our shoesin the finale five weeks from now.
But if we're looking back and we'resaying we didn't get you know, our
ev episode, or you know,we didn't get our our John and Erica

(07:02):
episode, do you think that thishas the potential to possibly be one of
those episodes where people will say,you know, I wish we'd focused more
on the main plot because there's somuch there and instead, why did we
have to go tangails? So thatagain, that's not something that I personally
believe, but I'm sort of playingthe straw man here and that I've been
seeing people sort of make that argumenttoday. Well, it's it's it definitely

(07:24):
is the the Matt Nathanson argument ofyou know, omitting Kevin Senior's storyline here
and and you know, Kevin's seenhere not being happy with that. But
it almost it almost highlights maybe thefeeling that maybe some of the viewers have
at home where you know, he'snot even in the book of Kevin.
Why are we focusing on this guy? But I would think if they are

(07:46):
showing this story, um, itwill the relevance will show itself, all
right. I would hope the relevancewould show itself by the time we come
to the finale in five weeks time. But but I totally understand that perspective
of where people are coming from.But at no point too I think it
was a waste of time. ButI would see concerns if we're gonna miss

(08:11):
out on other storylines from other charactersthat are beloved that you know, like
we a whole episode we couldn't getyou know, a little bit of something
else. But um, well,time will tell, I think in that
regard. But before we jump into our deep dive recap, want to
thank to people that make our showpossible, the patrons over at patreon dot
com slash Jay and Jack. Ifyou'd like to be have a patriot today,

(08:33):
you could do so by clicking thatbecome a patron link on Jay and
Jack dot com. We have aone hundred and fifty patrons and uh everything
that you guys contribute goes to allof our podcasters and making everything happen so
big. Thank you to you guys. Um all rights. With that being
said, it is time to jumpinto this recap. Are you guys ready?

(08:56):
Oh yeah, all right, let'sdo this alright, it's Leftovers recap

(09:20):
time. We open up with anew song, a lounge version of a
personal Genius Genius Jesus by depeche Mode. Thoughts on that here, like significance
of that song to the overall episode. I mean, I think the title

(09:41):
sort of speak for itself there.What I want to focus more on is
again episode one, we're saying,alright, there's gonna be some cool new
theme song for season three, right, and so far we've gotten the same
visuals from season two, but it'sbeen overlaid. We had the perfect Stranger's
theme song last week, that wasan obvious connection. Here we have the
personal Jesus this one. I don'tknow if they just sort of absconded with

(10:03):
any sort of idea of a themesong that they're just gonna play a different
song every week over the opening credits. That that would be a very odd
way of doing things. But thisepisode is an od way of doing the
leftover from the course in that regard, But I think at this point,
like there isn't going to be asong that repeats itself, right You're You're
three episodes in and it'd be kindof weird almost if they went to one
every single week that was the same, right M Yeah. Absolutely. The

(10:26):
the the jokiness of the the PerfectStranger's theme from from last week, uh,
I think set the right tone forfor that episode, and I think
this this song set the right tonefor for this episode. Plus the fact
that it wasn't the Depeche Mode version, it wasn't the Johnny Cash version.
It was this cheesy literally like cheesyRichard cheese. It was like a high

(10:52):
school jazz combo version of Personal Jesus. But but to me, it also
because it was such a lounge kindof lounge singer kind of thing, really
set the tone for me of kindof like being at the hotel and for
you know, Kevin Junior having tosing the karaoke Um, it had a
karaoke feel to it, and Ithink that really highlighted the kind of like
the leftover spin on things. Um. And I you know, Damon famously

(11:16):
quit Twitter, but he has beenfairly active on Instagram, and he posted
a meme before the episode started,and it has uh, you know the
members of Depeche Mode from the videoPersonal Genius Jesus, and it says,
I know that the lyrics is reachout and Touch Faith, just as uh,
just as I know that the songis called Personal cheeses Um. So

(11:41):
uh yeah, fun fun stuff.If you followed Dame Lindeloff on instagrams,
if you do anyw uh so jumpingin with a chief Garvey Senior what seems
to be immediately after the departure umand then there's this kind of of gravelly
vintage sounding help them go, helpthem and he turns around and then it

(12:07):
cuts to Kevin Senior driving in theoutback, listening to an old tape of
young Kevin and him talking about ducks. Kevin is kind of up on some
rocks and records an aboriginal tribe doingritual song and dance at night. Kevin
Senior performs his own version the outback. Fuzz arrives and asks him what are

(12:28):
you doing, and Kevin Senior says, preventing the apocalypse? What are you
doing? So, setting the tonehere for the episode, right, or
the songline I guess if you will. Yeah, I mean, this is
one of those things where they sortof drop you in the middle of everything
and you're supposed to kind of sinkor swim, sort of figure out as

(12:48):
the rains are coming in exactly what'sgoing on. We're obviously going to find
out exactly why Senior is, forlack of a better term, culturally appropriating
average old music, and you couldalso say that it's Senior's narrative throughout.
This episode is super interesting as wellin that I think we've seen obviously a

(13:09):
lot of religious slash messiah narrative hasknown so more prevalent than in the first
episode this season when Kevin was literallycalled a messiah. But this is one
example where you know Senior's going inbeing like, I am the person who
will stop the rain. This ison me, this is my cross to
bear. But it turns out thatas he goes through, he almost screws
up everyone around him. Yeah,And this is one example here where like

(13:31):
it's clear that he's like, Imean the tunnel the episode is crazy white
fellow thinking, and it shows thatyes, he's he very clearly sticks out
like a sore thumb here and thatyou know, he's trying to hide there
and record their singing, but thenhe tries to do his own sort of
painting and singing along with it,and it just doesn't fit. I want
to go back to the ducks fora second. I mean, it's clear

(13:52):
that this Niagara trip that's going tobe taped is a little off kilter,
considering that Senior is going to betaking eight year old Kevin Junior to go
see taxi driver for some reason lateron. But like, but what was
going on with the ducks. Didthey just have a bunch of duck eggs
and they were waiting for them tohatch over the course of this trip,
Well, I thought they was drivingby and the ducks went underwater, and

(14:13):
then he was worth they weren't comingback up or something. Yeah, that's
exactly what I got from it wasthat there were these ducks and they were
going down under the water, andthey were staying down for a really,
really long time, and little Kevinwas trying to you know, he was
stressed out because he thought, well, if they go under the water for
that time, they'll drown and dieand not come back. And suddenly miracle

(14:35):
upon miracle, they come back.I mean, it's a little nail on
the head there exactly what we've seenfrom Kevin Junior himself. But I think
that's kind of the to me,this entire episode in many ways is Lindeloff
trolling people like us who analyzed episodeslike this, looking for these answers and

(14:58):
picking things apart, and so he'sthrowing in things like this, where,
oh the ducks, that must beimportant? What does what does the ducks
mean? And trying to tie itin. I think Kevin Senior, his
whole journey for this episode is kindof in that way of how much meani
we're gonna put on these little thingsthat really probably don't have any importance,
and the brand scheme of things,but it's just what we put on them
and what we choose to try andput on them. Be fair. If

(15:22):
Grace Playford was watching those ducks andthey went down, she would have just
walked off and imagine that the duckswent with God at some point. That's
horrible. Um, let's let's moveon to Kevin Garvey being taken in and
questioned by the police. They referencehis maps showing the songlines they want to
keep his recording equipment and he buthe wants the tape of him and his

(15:45):
son Agre eighty one Lady. Later, Garvey Senior marks another spot on his
songline map, presumably the ritual hejust performed the tape playing Kevin Junior asking
about Hinckley Shoe Reagan Um stops ata post office and asked for the address
of Christopher Sunday. Is told tospeak to Sharon. She is a liaison

(16:07):
to the indigenous community. Kevin Seniorsays, with all due respect, I'm
a member of the indigenous community.Yeah, and he says that he had
mail forwarded to this location. It'sfor Matt Jamison And you know, asked
the clerk there, do you knowthe most proper work of all time is
the Bible? And said this isthe Goad Dang sequel. So yeah,

(16:30):
yeah, just Kevin Garbage, doesnot, you know, from their perspectives,
not come across looking very same.I also love him going to masquerade
as Kevin Junior in the mail inthe post little postage office shack reminds me
of like they're just scene in TheSimpsons where Homers trying to get a letter
that he accidentally sent to mister Burns. He just walked into the post office

(16:52):
and is like, hello, myname miss mister Burns. You have a
letter for me, don't you likeKevin. I'm glad it like they that
this guy clearly did not care aboutany sort of ID check concerning that.
Kevin Senior knew exactly what was coming, because I mean, this is not
the last time this episode he's goingto try to pass himself off as somebody
else. But uh yeah, thisSenior is clearly going through a bunch of

(17:15):
here's my buzzword, nefarious means inorder to get what he wants at the
end. Um yeah, and um, you know with with the reference to
um song lines here, um thatthat will be interesting how that comes to
play a little bit later. Um. But uh yeah, So let's move

(17:37):
on here to Kevin Senior. Hetakes out the book and to make markings
on the work, I guess togive feedback. Um, and there's cash
in there. Uh. And hetakes out one of the pages and wraps
it up and puts it in theNational Geographic uh, in the Cairo page.
Again, this could be just abit of uh, you know,
wink to uh the broader fans ofthe show that National Geographic was kind of

(18:03):
one of those props from last season. This season before Cairo is like one
of those things where you know,is this place significant and was digging into
it and so I like the callout there. I like bringing that back
into the fold reading it, hegets upset. He calls Matt and Noah

(18:25):
picks up and uh. Mary eventuallygets the phone cart Garvey Senior pretends to
be somebody else, but Mary's notreally having it and gives the phone to
Matt. Things seem to be verytense between Mary and Matt. Kevin Senior
is upset about what Matt is writing. I'm not part of junior stories,

(18:45):
part of mine. He told mewhat to do when he was eight years
old. Matt says children are reallyfeature in scripture. They argue and Kevin
Senior tells him to f off.So Kevin Senior not a fan of the
Book of Kevin, even though he'sthe lead editor on it. It seems
his his edits are also I don'tknow, I'm not a professional copy editor,

(19:07):
but if you write like f doyou write expletives all over the paper
that you're trying to work on themanuscript it's it's it's not so great.
But I believe I don't know ifit was on Reddit or somebody else had
taken a screenshot of the page thathe was editing. It looks like Matt
at that point was telling the storyabout I think when him and Kevin buried

(19:27):
the corpse of Patty and they wentto go eat in that restaurant where Kevin
kind of broke down and he eventuallymet with Holy Wayne. So I guess
the Book of Kevin is super transparentto the point of where they were testing
up to the crimes that they did. But then again, considering how the
police that Kevin reported his crime toin the first place didn't care about what
had happened to Patty, I guessthey're okay, yes, if it's if

(19:49):
it's a gr it's fine, killhim, just blow him up, whatever
you gotta do. It's fine,no big deal, no big yeah.
I mean what you have to youhave to understand, you know, Kevin
Seniors had a really rough night.He only got an seven on the dance
from Bruno Tonioli. Um, youknow, he's really licking his wounds here.
And now he finds out that heis not the hero of the greatest
sequel of all time. So's he'sin a bad mood, and I think

(20:12):
it again. It just goes toshow that that he believes that this story
The Leftovers is is about him.He in his mind he is the star
of this show and he's not.But he's going to be the star of
this episode. And it's almost likethe people who are upset that why are
you spending all the time with thischaracter who's not our main character, Like
he himself is upset that he's notthe main character. It's it's it's like

(20:34):
it's a riddle inside in the enigma. The audience is Kevin Senior, that's
genius. Take I love that geniusor Jesus depending on how it pronouncing.
Um uh yeah, yeah, it'sdefinitely uh. This also kind of this

(20:55):
scene for me, kind of justfrom my own viewing perspective, that everything
here that Kevin Senior is doing upto this point, the whole songline,
same songs, just seems for notts. You know, he doesn't to me,
he doesn't have an understanding of hisactual importance in this story, and
this scene kind of highlights that forme, and speaking towards the Matt stuff

(21:15):
as well. I mean this sortof places it in the timeline. We
know that Mary's still there, soobviously this takes place before the big reveal
of the Book of Kevin, andwe already see things are a little strained
between the two of them. Ido think I don't want to spoil future
episodes too much, but I believewe're gonna have another Matt episode as well
as we do every season, soI think we're gonna get a little bit

(21:37):
more as to what's going on.But yeah, and we get a nice
and true Leftovers fashion, a gof yourself this time to Matt. Though
Matt's gonna have some retribution later on. Yes, yes he is, I
will. I will say that's oneof the really nice things about this episode.
Forget about whether you wanted this episodeto be, you know, centered
on a Captain Senior and all thatstuff. I just think it was great

(21:59):
that we didn't have the need forKirron that said, you know, three
months earlier, three weeks later,you just show the kid and we're able
to piece it together. They trustthat we're able to place in the timeline
and this show, I think asmuch as this particular episode I think is
poking fun at the fans. Ithink generally this show respects the fans,
and I appreciated that. Yeah,well, I give Damon credit for a

(22:21):
lot of that. Like all,his writing style is never to spoon feed
like it's like he's going to putit all out there and he assumes the
audience is smart enough to, youknow, either make your own assumptions on
what it is and come with theirown interpretations, or be able to figure
out, you know, where theyare and why they're there. We then

(22:44):
go to Kevin Senior meeting Sharon andhe's trying to get the whereabouts of Chris
Sunday. There is a warning posterabout him. He does a fairly good
job schmoozing his way with Sharon untilshe sees the posting and they play a
bit of the shame on you gamefor one Kevin Senior kind of taking something

(23:06):
that's not his um and for youknow, all of Australia for what they've
done to their indigenous people um.And Kevin Senior steals the infrouh and kind
of runs to Chris Sunday. Heintros himself to Chris Sunday is Kevin totem
of the bush Snake, which willbecome relevant a little bit later. This

(23:29):
this totally reminds me, sorry tointerrupt your find that one day by the
Bell episode when Zach thought he waspart Native American. So we did that
whole class presentation that was extremely offensive. That's what Kevin Senior is doing right
now in my point of view.Yeah, although I was actually personally disappointed
that, you know, given thathe's basically being Kaiser so say here that
he didn't just call himself Kobe Ashi. Um uh yeah. Yeah. So

(23:57):
we've kind of then gets uh thisbig catch up story to you know,
what what Kevin Senior has been upto, as he kind of brings Chris
Sunday to why he's here talking toChris Sunday today. So from you know,
first hearing the voices institutionalization and thenyou know, finally listening to the

(24:19):
voices and going to Australia, theydidn't really give anything beyond that. Uh
so you know, this hippie tellsthem, you know it needs to talk
to God and takes God's tongue andhe wakes up two weeks later in Perth.
Perth and uh he doesn't know howhe got there. Now, can
we assume within that where he doesn'tremember that's when he talked to Kevin in

(24:42):
the International Assassin episode. You haveto assume so. And that's the larger
implications because again I don't know ifthis was brought up in this podcast,
but I know that there are somecorners of the Leftovers community get that after
International Assassin, even when they wentback to the hotel in the season two
finale, some people still thought,Oh, this is all in Kevin's mind.
This is, you know, somesort of larger allegory for the afternolife.

(25:04):
Not a literal interpret interpretation, butI think the fact that we see
now the other side of the conversationas to how Kevin Senior got to this
burned up mattress and Perth decked outin his best Aboriginal war paint, shows
that that was indeed of a realconversation that happened, albeit it seemed to
happen between planes. Yeah, Idisagree, Okay, it's it's oppositeletely disagree

(25:30):
because again to me, um,you know, we're we're aware of the
fact that Kevin had this experience KevinJunior uh in the hotel and everything like
that. But looking at on aface value, if we're not going to
really buy that Tony the Chicken istelling Kevin Senior where to go and what

(25:52):
to do, then we're just doinga really really good job of cherry picking
the things that we're going to say, Oh, well, that proves that
he actually was there when he couldjust have been high high on this God's
tongue. And you know, howdo we know that he didn't tell Kevin
Junior at some point, Yeah,I was in this hotel and I dreamed
I saw you, And that's whatKevin dreamed about when you know, when

(26:15):
he had his experience. But wehave no idea. And if we're not
going to accept Tony the Chicken ishaving magical powers, which which I'm not
willing to do, then I'm notwilling to necessarily say that anything that in
this story is to be taken aface value. And yet we're doing it
because it's a TV show. Butand that's what Kevin Senior's doing and where

(26:36):
Kevin Senior and if he's nuts,we're nuts, and then that and that.
But that's the complete point is thatI think this again goes back to
the idea of faith. You know, in this after look on the episode
that he did on HBO, andDamon kind of goes into this little talking
head about the fact that, youknow, after big moment of crises in
the planet's history, a lot ofreligion sprung up that I think, on

(26:57):
paper, a lot of people wouldsay are completely questionable. But people want
to ascribe meaning to certain things inorder to give themselves some sort of satisfaction
that lets them sleep at night,and so I do think it's purposeful.
I agree that we're sort of puttingourselves in the mind of Kevin Senior and
really everyone else in the way thatwe can sort of derive symbology and meaning

(27:18):
from things that don't necessarily mean anything. The season two theme was let the
mystery be for a reason. ButI think it's totally legitimate for us to
make claims like this because that's justwhat the characters are doing. This sort
of again represents the larger microcosm ofhumanity that is represented through the Leftovers itself,
and yet we're believing that some ofthese characters are wrong. So you
know, I don't think it tellsus one way or the other. And

(27:41):
I think that's the point, youknow, when it comes down to it.
And I just love the fact thatthe acting job the actor who played
Chris Sunday to be in this scene. I mean, you know, all
props to the scene itself as ScottGlenn, who was amazed balls, but
it works because Chris Sunday's just justhis nods untilts of the head and and

(28:02):
him taking it in and just readinghis eyes and his expressions when he's just
listening to a story just like us, and you have to wonder what is
he thinking this whole time when hedoesn't know anything that we know. It
just it. I just love thisfrom just on a meta level, This
scene and this entire episode is justit's just a plus stellar well and that's

(28:25):
but that's the beauty of like alindalof show like and it's it's it goes
you know, even lost. It'sthe whole man of science versus man of
faith and like how do you howdo you attribute certain things? And and
uh, you know, the theinternal struggle between Locke and Jack and how
they'll eventually like it's and that's Ithink The Leftovers is almost like that debate
in Pure you know, uncut formis what this show is and what what

(28:48):
Damon has been exploring in this show. Um, and you I think you
can have both. I think youcan say, you know, uh,
Tony the chicken that was you knowthat that doesn't matter, but he actually
did connect with his son through withwhatever plane, and I think you can
you can justify it because it's it'sKevin Junior story, not Kevin Seniors.

(29:11):
And that's where there was a momentthere that he's even remember that where he
did kind of cross into this otherplane of existence because he was so high.
But again that's that's just an interpretationof it, which is what makes
the Lindeloff shows and the things thathe creates so great because you can have
like ten thousand different interpretations about onemoment in the show, which makes her

(29:32):
fun podcasting. Yeah, and Ithink we also need to take this same
grain of salt that we're giving topeople like Grace who are saying that,
oh, you know, I thoughtif I did this and that I'd be
able to talk to my children throughGod. Compared to Norah last week,
who's about to apparently fly to Melbourneto undergo this really insane science study to

(29:52):
be able to try to talk toher children. I think again, it
just shows the length of certain peoplewill go in order to maybe even you
know, close the loop in away, you know, gives say something
that you you really want to say, but you never did because you never
thought this type of thing would happen. And now we get to see sort
of a different side through the Kevin'shere. But you know, I'm assuming

(30:14):
that Kevin Junior and Kevin Senior aregoing to cross paths at some point later
on this season. I think theearlier conversation with Matt alluding to the Abraham
Isaac story was not length law pokingfun at us. I do think that's
going to come into play at somepoint, concerned that they made notice of
the fact that that Isaac or Abrahamthe Sun was well into his thirties when

(30:37):
he got sacrificed. So, youknow, I think the parent child theming
is something that's been prevalent throughout theentire time in the Leftovers, and I
think we've seen three very clear casesas to the length that some parents will
go to to talk to their children, whether that be through fraudulent means or
what they feel are realistic. Yeah, good call. Out really good call
out. So, you know,after waking up in Perth, his the

(31:02):
TV is on UM and he getsintro to Tony the Chicken and he goes
there. He's looking for purpose andTony pecked on the tape of him and
his son. Um. He kindof tells the story of the tapes where
they went on this trip after hiswife died of cancer. And this this
tape records is you know, oneof the last things that he got or

(31:25):
she got him before she passed,and so he wanted to be with news
reporters, so he just kept youknow, running this tape. UM.
So the tape plays at between Juniorand him where it's raining and he sings
Itsy Bitsy Spider to stop the rain. Uh. Now he is learning the
songs from you know, the indigenouspeople and Chris Sunday's song is the last
one he has to learn to completehis task, and Chris asked him to

(31:47):
start with stopping the flooding in hishouse aka fixing the swamp cooler. UM.
So with Tony Chicken pecking at thetape here me after this is like,
I'm sorry, Kevin Senior, You'rejust wrong. Um does anybody here
think that he's actually right in thisquestion. I don't necessarily think that that

(32:15):
he's he's he's right. I mean, look, he's listening to a chicken
who you know, but what?But I think in many ways this is
and we're going to see this withthe next scene too, that it becomes
almost a self fulfilling prophecy. Atthis point, he believes that there is
something, uh, some purpose outthere, and it didn't really matter what

(32:37):
Tony the Chicken did, or youknow, if he had turned on the
TV at a different moment with somethingelse, he would have found something that
steered him in a direction. Itmay not have come here, um,
but something he would have figured outa way to get it to this to
the next place, and he wouldhave put meaning on that he he is
imbuing the chicken with meaning. Heisn't imbuing this with meaning. So I

(33:00):
think in that sense it's really it'sa self fulfilling prophecy here. And it
didn't matter what the sign was,he would end up where he wanted to
end up. But the thought ofthis flood that's coming is that because in
the previous for this season, itseemed like that was a thing that they
were kind of referencing is he rightin that or is it just is it

(33:22):
really he's just kind of, youknow, picking things out of the air
essentially. I mean this sort ofreminds me of prior conversations that have happened
to the Leftovers, where things willtake a super serious tone and someone's very
concerned and energetic about the fact thatwe need to do this, and then
they'll just drop something that's completely insaneand sort of derails the conversation. This
happened in the first episode this seasonwhen Dean came back and he's like,

(33:43):
Hey, I think there's you know, you really there's really a problem in
our country dog people, or youknow, like keep referring to that conversation
last season in Lens when someone callsNora and is like, you know,
I think you are you know,you are cursed. You are a danger
because the deebon as Real decided toput his spirit within you and you will
curse all those around you, andwhich might be looking more and more legitimate

(34:05):
as the time passes. But Ithink that this is another key example where
again it's just what we talked about, where you're sort of in on a
character just because maybe you get youget to know them, or you've been
following them for a while, sothat when something a belief system comes out
of left field, like it doeswith the Chicken and the I have to
sing a song to stop the worldfrom flooding, you sort of take pause

(34:25):
and say, oh, oh,that's that's a little cuckoo bananas. But
you also have to kind of thenturn it back on yourself and say,
wait, why am I judging acharacter that I was all in on beforehand,
just because you know, and notto say I'm not necessarily comparing Kevin
Senior to someone like Dean who Idon't think any of us were all in
on, But I mean I wasdefinitely buying what Scotland was putting down the

(34:47):
past two seasons. He was seemedreasonably confident in himself, saying, you
know, once I listened to thevoices, I was good to go,
and not to hear that he basicallyled to the path he currently is because
he listened to a piece of foulthat's pretty foul to me there. So
I couldn't help a judgment, Butat the same time, personally speaking made
me have my own sort of pricesof faith in that, like, why

(35:07):
am I judging this as a TVviewer? Why am I necessarily judging him?
Because, as you said, Aj, it was really just the verification
that he needed. He was essentiallysearching for someone to tell him, Yeah,
you're going in the right direction,you're doing the right thing, and
he got it in the form ofthis chicken. So, no matter what
the means may be, if theends are what you need to get to

(35:27):
at the end of the day,I guess they justify them. Yeah.
Well, I mean I think itcomes down to we're dealing with the world
where there was a pretty out ofthe ordinary event that did take place.
So I mean, can you imaginea pre departure, like the month leading
up to the departure, if therewas a guy who every day said,
you know, tomorrow, two percentof the population is going to disappear.

(35:49):
Tomorrow's two percent, and he's onthe same street corner saying it every single
day, and these people in thetown are listening to him every day and
they think he's nuts. And youhappen to walk by the day before the
departure and he says it and itactually happens the next day. You're going
to think this guy is magic andis like so has some sort of insight.
And I think, you know,if Christopher Sunday is hearing this and

(36:14):
it jives with what he believes andwhat he knows and his experience, then
he might take you know, himat face value, whereas to the normal
person in our world we wouldn't,but in this world maybe you would.
Yeah, that's true. That's agood point. Um. So, while
on the roof trying to fix theswamp cooler, Sharon comes into town and

(36:37):
Garvey, you know, Francis don'tbelieve anything she says, and as he's
trying to you know, you know, prevents h you know, being taken
away, he falls off the roof, injuring Chris and himself In the ambulance,
Garvey Senior tries to get the songfrom or at least say hey,
I need to be with this guy. I can't leave him because he I

(36:58):
mean, I think he knows hischances are are running thin. Here.
The medic wants him to quintin interfering. Garvey gets arnry and says he's a
yam Generian, respect your fin elders, to which he gets kicked out of
the ambulance UM and I would thinkrightfully so from the medic's perspective. He

(37:22):
wanders in the outback listening to theNiagara eighty one tape. A black beetle
of Volkswagen Beetle pulls up. Aman comes out into suits. He douses
the car and self in gas.Garvey Senior tries to stop him. Man
says, would you kill a babyif it could cure cancer? Senior says
no. Man says, that's exactlywhat I said. He lights himself up
and the bug blows up. Soweird kind of scene. Will this scene

(37:51):
have a lot more relevance outside ofthis episode or is it just like a
weird one? Will? I thinkit will only because of what Mike said
earlier. I think we are probablygoing to look back at this uh and
see a setup where Kevin Senior isgoing to be put in a situation where

(38:13):
he can indeed save the world,but he's going to have to kill his
own son to do it. Um, which you know, would you kill
a baby if if it caure cancer? Would you kill your own son if
it meant you could save the world? And and here he says he wouldn't
do it, um, I think, will he do it when when you
know it comes down to it,will he actually do it? I think

(38:35):
we're going to get to that moment, and I don't know what the rapifications
are going to be if if heif he can, you know, I
think we all want to see himgo, you know, Kevin get killed
again and go back to the hotel. But you know, will that only
work in miracle? I don't know. But I don't know if Senior will
be able to go through with it. And if so, then he's really
not the hero of the Book ofKevin that he thinks he is. And
maybe that'll be the moment when herealizes it. Hopefully I'm not usurping Jack's

(38:59):
crack pop are here. But whatwhat if, mister yourself immolation was an
applicant to that study that we werejust talking about, the one that make
and maybe they have to answer aquestionnaire much like those that you know have
departed, and we're sending to theirown questionnaire, and that's it's not necessarily
about the people that depart. It'sjust one of the questions in the personality

(39:22):
test and he happened to fail itas a result, he wasn't able to
get the closure and connect with theperson that he wanted to, so he
decided to take himself out right there, right then, in the middle of
the outback. That's a that's adamn good hot take right there, all
right, if I would have ahot take, but one just broke into
my mind like a flame. Well, and and and and here's here's here's

(39:44):
where it could also have just been. I mean, I said, I
just said that, I think itwill come back, and they'll have a
meeting if it doesn't come back,and the scene just exists as an odd
wall when all of a sudden done. I think this could again be just
a case of grade A trolling byLindeloff, because as you know, I
could see that maybe he was ata job interview, um, and he

(40:05):
didn't get the job. You knowthat they they they they they didn't let
him in. They did they passedhim over. And he's going back over
the job interview in his mind andtrying to figure out, well, why
did they say no. They wouldn'ttell me why they said no? Why
did they say no? And andin the end he just blows himself up
because he can't deal with it,and in a way that's a little off
telling the fans. Look, ifI don't answer your questions for the one

(40:27):
question that you want answered in thisseries, um, you know, don't
light yourself on fire. People,It's not that big a deal. Just
go on with your life. Icould definitely see it as kind of a
commentary on all the the Lost questionsthat weren't answered and thus forth. Well,
he certainly could play that way.Yeah, it could. And I
think Damon at least has said,you know, don't go into this expecting

(40:50):
answers for certain things, you know. I yeah, I hopefully hopefully the
viewers at home aren't hope, youknow, expecting some gramp. But for
the most part, I feel like, aside from the departure, it really
hasn't been about trying to solve thesemysteries the way that Lost was I and
say, maybe the way Westworld itis very much like this mystery unfolding.

(41:14):
It's more about the kind of characterjourney. Yeah, two things about this
past scene. First, I knowyou said Jay that they had every sort
of reason to throw him out ofthe ambulance. I know that on the
Jane and Jack Facebook page, peoplemight have been of a different mind,
though I know some people said thatit was heartless of the ambulance driver to
kick a man out with a brokenfoot in the middle of the outback,

(41:36):
but I guess you know when you'reI'm assuming he was needling the unconscious corpse
of Christopher Sunday for quite a time. I don't know if it's warranted.
I don't know if it's justified,but that might be a reason. But
I think it's so interesting to sortof track the trajectories of senior versus the
person he was accosting on the phonebefore Matt in that there does seem to
be a little bit of joblike tendenciesbetween the two seniors, got a little

(41:59):
bit of Jamison on him, andthat it seems like in this episode,
I mean, he's gonna yell atGod in this next scene, saying like,
hey, you try to do everythingto stop me, It's not going
to stop me. And it doesseem like a lot of unfortunate circumstances seemed
to befall him. But where itsort of contrasts again is that I do
feel like, well Matt might havehis dark moments, like again beating the
snot out of that one guy whotried to carjack him in his season one

(42:21):
episode. For the most part,he's a good person that just happens to
get perennially crapped upon by the manupstairs. But what Seniors trying to do
is he's really trying to again shoehornhimself into a narrative to be what he
thinks is the good Samaritan, whenreally he's just kind of acting like a
big asshole, and so that's whyhe's getting retribution for it. But he
might be twisting it in his ownway, like, oh, I'm being

(42:44):
tested now. I am truly theprophet, but this is a way for
the powers that be to test me, just like you have tested Norah Durst
and Matt Jamison before me. Yep, agreed. And on top of that,
like, you know, let's faceit, if the way to save
the world is to have this songsong from beginning to end, there's I

(43:06):
don't think there's any rule book herethat it has to be one person.
And he's insinuating himself here into beingthe hero, being the person literally by
being the one person who's going tomemorize all these songs, and in the
process he puts himself in a situationwhere he falls off a roof and kills
the one person who has the lastpart of the song, And if he

(43:27):
had just minded his own business,perhaps they could have all gotten together and
sung the stupid song. So youknow, it's it's like, don't insinuate
yourself where you don't belong, becauseyou're just gonna make a mess of things.
The concept of the song reminded mea lot of the Netflix series The
Oa, and I won't spoil itfor anybody who hasn't seen it, but
there's very much a similar concept ofyou need to get certain parts like a
video game, get certain parts ofthis certain song in order to stop an

(43:50):
event from happening. There you go. So after the car blows up,
Garby Senior look through the car fora water. There seems to be vodka,
which doesn't explode for some reason inthe bottle. He yells at the
sky saying, I know you're tryingto do but you can't stop me a
hole, and then the sky opensup to kind of torrential downpour. Garvey

(44:15):
gets a drink of water, thenrealizes his tape player is getting soaked.
The next day, he tries totest it out, but the tape deck
is fried. Garvey Senior continues ajourney through the outback, comes across his
totem aka bush snake. He triesto kill it for food, but it's
not dead yet, always double tapit bites him. He continues on until

(44:40):
he gets to a cross. Helays down at it, takes out the
passage from the book that he wrappedthe cash in, and he passes out.
As he's passing out, a personand a horse comes and he kind
of says out help, and thenhe kind of goes unconscious. So even
though Garvey Senior to me is beingan a hole for most of this episode,

(45:01):
I did also feel really bad whenthe tape deck was fried because of
just his attachment to what it was. So he againting could attest to it
saying like, oh, yes,this is another test. You have all
my worldly possessions taken away from me, so all I have left is my
faith. I want to know fromyou Jay, as someone who has been
warding off snakes in the past week, do you have a better strategy than

(45:23):
what Kevin Senior tried to do?Just whack him with a crutch? Uh
me, personally, I don't mindsnakes. So we have a black snake
here, and he's a good snake. He's he's warding off the evil ones.
But growing up in southern California,we have a lot of snakes,
a lot of rattlesnakes, and youneed to do a much better job making
sure that thing is dead before he'sgoing to go up there and try to

(45:45):
eat it. I question his formin the snake killing there. Yeah,
before the snake, I just wantto I just noticed that for me,
if I were Kevin Senior and Itruly believed everything that I was saying,
why didn't Why didn't I just startsinging? Its spider? Because then the
brain would stop? Um, youknow, And he didn't. And you

(46:07):
know, part of it is becauseI think he knows subconsciously that he doesn't
really have that kind of power andthe rain just started and it's not going
to stop immediately. And by failingthere, you know, poke holes in
his story. So you just don'tsing so that you don't have any contradiction
in your head and you're able to, you know, go on and then
continue in your delusion that good callout there, good car? Do you
think there was any chance that afterbeing bitten by a snake, Kevin Senior

(46:29):
would have the same trajectory as thewoman from the prologue in season two also
got been by a snake and hadto She crawled her way to the end
of the what ended up being theJardan Lake and just ended up sort of
dying there. Do you think there'sa chance that Senior could have possibly gone
the same route as she did?Possibly? I mean, good, good

(46:50):
callback, good callback for sure.I mean, and it's just there.
It's a good it's another good allusionto you just biblical texts and snakes and
just historically what they've kind of representedUM and the fact that that's his totem
as well. I think it's justa good uh you know, story analog
there to put in UM. Also, did anybody feel like when the tape

(47:12):
deck was broken, I was like, really, no digital backup, no
digital backup here of the of thetape. If it's your only one,
I don't want to make sure thatyou know, well, Kevin Senior strikes
me as the type of person who'seVCR is still blinking twelve and he still
has a VCR. So technology notexactly his foretape probably yeah, maybe not,
maybe not um so uh. Hewakes up in a child's room with

(47:37):
a dog staring at him. Heis I veed and cased up um and
he takes both outs. La lala la la la. Uh. The
home is empty, um and hecalls Matt's early in the morning in Jardin

(47:57):
Time, and Kevin wants to knowwhat day it is, and he finds
out it's only eight days before theseventh anniversary. Matt needs him to send
a copy of the book back,which kind of puts us in the eight
days out, but also the timelinethat he's already given Kevin the book and
he's worried he's not going to getit back. Garvey Senior says, he

(48:19):
threw it away. You need toget past your dumb book. He wants
help getting to Sunday. Matt tellshim to go f himself. He goes
outside and sees people working on anarc and asks if they know Sunday.
A man tells him you're the onethat fell on him. He's dead.
Okay, so you might wander atthe end of this episode, where did

(48:43):
these people come from? Yeah?And why did Grace say later on that
I live here alone. Let's rememberwhen Grace describes her children and when Kevin
Senior is looking through the photo album. Now, again this is a question
as to whether this is well,this is imaginary, whether he's actually talking
across the plains. But it couldbe possible that these are the spirits of

(49:07):
the dead children, now grown up, working on this arc, because again,
they would have no idea that therains were coming. You know,
it's not like Kevin Senor really impartedhis knowledge onto anyone except for Sunday.
We're assuming. So I'm totally couldsee this as some sort of snake venom,
maybe a little bit of God's tonguelumped in his systems, sort of

(49:28):
fever dream where he talks to thesespirits of these dead children, who,
according to him, are working inhis spirit to build this arc for when
the rains come. I didn't getthat at all, but great call out.
That's a that's a good another hottake, and it's it's certainly all
of everything that we said. Youknow, I know, even if I'm
disagreeing with you, Mike at certainpoints, it's all possible until they tell

(49:52):
us what their story is and everything, Um, you know, I think
it probably is a Steake Venom delusion. That's kind of what I was thinking
it was and everything, because everythingin the delusion kind of points him to
a reinforce his belief that the floodis indeed coming and he's right, and

(50:12):
b keeps him from having to pursueSunday because he wasn't going to get the
help from at anymore. So thiswas a way of him to no longer
need to search for that if Isay, oh, well he's dead,
so I don't have to worry aboutthat anymore. I think it's very internally,
the logic is very consistent there forhim to keep his point of view
and not to have his delusion shattered. And I mean, I'm operating under

(50:36):
the assumption that it's a delusion,and even if there is a flood that
happens, he could still be delusional. Yeah, And so that's kind of
where where my head is at withthis. Yeah. I just for me,
as I watched, I just watchedit like there's a straight scene,
like there's there's people there working onthis thing, and so yeah, that's

(50:57):
uh. I I did not feelthat at all, but now seeing it's
like, oh, of course that'swhat it is. Of course it's a
it's a snake venom dream, andof course it's the kids, you know,
grown up in their spirits or whatever, and it's but um. Either
way, really interesting way for thatscene to play out, whether it valid

(51:17):
dates him or it's all just youknow, whatever his mind is kind of
um or his ego saving himself fromYeah. I like how Senior can now
sort of say like, oh no, this is true. I'm backed up
by my followers, all these deadchildren, they're all these are all the
senior rights, they're the ones allthe deceased or are working for me.

(51:40):
Why aren't you, Junior? Andthe other thing that that I think is
really great about this is that we'reall Yeah and myself included, are so
willing to accept everything that Kevin Juniorgoes through at face value. Even that
first season when we were when weweren't sure whether he was delusional or not,
we still kind of because he wasour point of view character. We
were seeing the world through his youknow, for the most part, except

(52:01):
of those episodes obviously where we wentto someone else's point of view, But
generally speaking, anything that Kevin Juniorgoes through, I accept as happening because
he's our point of view character,whereas here Kevin Senior is not our point
of view character. So I'm notas willing as a viewer to accept anything
he's seeing as at face value.And it's kind of interesting there that you

(52:22):
know, by him not being thehero of the story, that's coloring the
way whether I believe him or not, and it's I mean, I just
love that that he could be rightand every other character could be wrong,
but I'm not willing to accept itsimply because he's not the main character.
And I think that's hilariously brilliant fromthe writing staff. I know that we
talk a lot about the theming offaith in general with the laptovers, but

(52:43):
I feel like an equally prevalent themeis this idea of communication of storytelling in
a way that you know, tocoin a term that I know a certain
survivor contestant likes to use, everyone'sthe hero of their own narrative in that
regards, even going back to somebodylike John Murphy in season two, who
did some pretty damn heinous things.He it was all for his belief,

(53:04):
him saying I'm the hero of thistown because we want to maintain the sanctity
and pristine aspects of this town thatdid not lose anyone during the departure.
And so one fun thing, asyou said at that I love about this
show is that they really play withthese people saying like it makes sense why
they do these things that look tous ridiculous because in their heads, they

(53:25):
believe that this is their story andthey're doing for They're doing everything to show
what is right for them in theend. And yeah, I think now
we sort of get a sense tosay, Okay, we're done with our
unreliable narrator, Prime, Let's goto our you know, our second unreliable
narrator who clearly, you know,seem to have a pretty level head even

(53:45):
though he was hearing voices. Butnow he's doing absolutely ridiculous things, including
maybe communicating with dead children. Yeah, and you know it, are we
seeing the splits in factions in thesereligions. You have the senior rights with
the and on one side and thejuniors on the other other side, Like
it is this what we're seeing rightnow? Splintering of the two Kevin's,

(54:09):
Oh, this is going to bethe Sunnis and shea's of the next generation.
Absolutely, it could it could wellturn into that. Like, you
know, they both based their beliefson the Book of Kevin. It's just
that you know. Ah, butthe unwritten chapters is where where I did
this and you you didn't write that. But we're going to add that to
our book. So yeah, absolutely, and it brings more context to the

(54:30):
you just got the wrong Kevin.To the end of the episode, UM,
well, let's let's close out thisepisode with the last scenes here,
Kevin Garvey Senior takes the dogs arthritismeds and perus a scrapbook of a family
and their adopted children. Um passesout and we come to the scene from
last week's at the killing of OfficerKevin Garvey. We kind of go to

(54:52):
the scene where Garby comes out likehey, what's going on? And he
gets tranked. Um, I meanhe wakes to the woman we saw last
week, Grace. She tells astory of what happened to her around her
departure, the horrible way she losther children, how she found Garvey Senior
and he had this passage of whatread like scripture, and she thinks it's

(55:13):
fate that the chief police Kevin isjust twenty kilometers from here, and once
I'd proven my faith, he wouldlet me talk to my children one last
time. But she said, youknow you're She says, you're not an
angel. There is no message,and God doesn't care about me. It's
all just a story I told myself. And she asked Garvey Senior, I've
got to be crazy, haven't I? And then Garvey Senior replies, I

(55:35):
don't think you're crazy at all.You just got the wrong Kevin and closes
out the episode. I mean,this monologue is again, say what you
want to about the first part ofthis episode, the majority of it,
but this monologue is just so sogood and so well delivered by Lindsay Duncan,
who AJ, I don't know ifyou recalled. Lindsay Duncan showed that

(55:58):
you and I both love Black Mirror. I believe Linda Duncan appeared in the
very first episode, so there's anotherconnection there with another themey heavy show.
I did not make the connection atall, But I mean, I'm not
surprised that she's done other good stuffbecause someone like this may not be you
know, a lot of actors,you know, don't necessarily break on the
American chores, but certainly coming fromother countries, you can you can sometimes

(56:21):
catch these gems of performances. Yeah, this monologue. I mean, if
this episode had just been the monologuethat that he that Senior gives to Sunday
and this monologue that would that wouldhave been enough for me, I like
just acting tour to force from bothof them. Yeah, I agreed.
And again it's just it's um.It just re brings it brings up that

(56:45):
theme again of you know, whatwhat is faith and what is um it
for these different people that have gonethrough these different things. UM. And
you know what actually happened to herkids a horrible, horrible thing, even
beyond just the departure um. Anduh, you know you can you can

(57:06):
see why she would do that.You know, you'd see why you know
this this one piece of paper withthis you know, scripture written by somebody
in Texas, UM and the themeaning she puts upon it, uh,
and what she thinks going to happenwith it, and um, it's just
it's it's leftovers at its best isreally good mirror to you know, the

(57:27):
human condition. Um. And thisscene was just a perfect microcosm of of
what this show does really really well. Absolutely, Jay, Absolutely, and
and and just the fact that it'severything that she says in that story makes
sense from her point of view.Absolutely that that from her point of view
and her seeing all the Bibles linedup, that's that's her way of of,

(57:47):
you know, saying, ah,they all went in the in the
departure there, that's what happened tothem, Whereas someone who perhaps didn't have
the same sort of belief that shedid, would say, if they had
all departed, those bibles would havehit the floor and not been in a
straight line. Clearly, someone physicallyhad to put them in that straight line.

(58:08):
The children are someone still here.And that would have probably been my
point of view if I had youencountered this scene as someone who didn't know
these people, like, you know, a police been coming in. But
of course she's not calling the police, you know, she's like, ah,
this is what happened. This mustbe what happened. And it's interesting
encountering this with the smidge that wegot of John Murphy in the first episode

(58:30):
where he says, Evie's not dead. I know, you know, she
escaped us, once she eluded us, once she did it again. I'm
going to find her almost the oppositeopinion of what Grace did, who was
essentially her. I want to sayshe threw in the towel, but she
sort of again, as you said, AJ, supplemented her own sort of
rationale in her head of oh,this is obviously where they went. Now
I have this path that I needto go down, whereas John Murphy seems

(58:52):
to be going down almost the oppositepath of I know my daughter still out
there even though she might not be. According to Erica last week, it's
interesting to see again this parent childtheming about what parents might do in order
to reach their kids. Whether thatmeans that I know they're alive even though
they might not be, or Idon't think they are alive, to let
me try to do other things tocommunicate them in some other way. Yep.

(59:16):
And thoughts on Kevin Senior saying you'vegot the wrong Kevin. Is this
him turning pivoting to realizing that KevinJunior is the star of this story or
is he continuing down his kind ofown delusions of grandere. I think it's
absolutely the latter. I, likeAJ said, I think we're sort of
we're sort of setting up for KevinSenior to say, like, Okay,

(59:39):
Australia is my territory, which againshould make things interesting if and when Junior
comes down to Australia, if heruns into him and now Senior continually say
you're in my story, You're notsupposed to be in my story. I
think that Senior did suffer a crisisof faith throughout this episode, including when
you Know he lost Sunday. Itseemed to him like all hope was lost

(59:59):
at that moment, that the lastpiece of the song that could have saved
the world from his point of viewhad now died out with a squish,
quite literally. But now he's foundsomeone who he can sort of recruit now
and it has really sort of emboldenedhim to continue down that path. So
again, I can understand where peoplemight have griped with this episode from a

(01:00:21):
pacing perspective in comparison to the restof the season. But I feel like
we found out so many fascinating thingsabout Kevin Senior that I really hope it
sets up some really interesting narrative payoffsdown the line. Yeah, I think
it's a perfect setup. I agreewith you. May if this is a
perfect setup. It wasn't an episodethat took us so far tangentially. I
mean, it really just brought usright back to where now when when Junior

(01:00:45):
and Nora arrived in Australia, weknow exactly where we are in the story.
It fills in last week's cliffhanger whenwe thought, oh my goodness,
like the where are they? Arethey in the future, Like I think
it, oh, no, there, you know, we still don't know
where is you know, from thefirst episode. But in terms of the
Book of Kevin perhaps spawning off thisfaith and everything, No, this is

(01:01:08):
this is present day. It isnot in the future. We got an
answer to a question one episode later. So I think it definitely was a
definite set up, and it wasn'tso far removed that we have to worry
about they wasted an episode. Yeah, maybe if this was episode seven of
the season with one to go,when they had done a divergence, perhaps

(01:01:28):
we could have I might have felta little different. But this was great.
I thought this informed the story.It gave gave us as the audience,
a look at from a different anglethat none of the other characters are
going to have. And I thinkthat gives us more information than the characters,
and that's always a good thing.I agree, I agree. All
right, well that is what wethought about this episode. Now it's time

(01:01:50):
to go into what do you guysthought will listener feedback. We got a
couple of calls here, and onefrom none other than Action Jackson himself.
We'll see if his crackpot or hegot ethaned by any of us here today.
So let's go into those now,Listener, Hey, this is Jack

(01:02:12):
longtime podcaster, first time calling,calling with my thoughts about the latest episode
of The Leftovers. I know alot of people might think it was a
slow episode, maybe a little boring, but I enjoyed it. I enjoyed
the performance of scot Gland and LindyDuncan. I thought they were both outstanding.
When Grace was telling that story atthe end. Who didn't get choked
up a little bit? Sad Scotland'sperformances, Kevin Garvey Senior was I just

(01:02:35):
thought amazing. I was. Iwas closed be the screamed the whole time,
and in fact, when he fallsoff the Ruth and kills Chris Sunday,
who didn't laugh? I thought itwas funny. The guy setting himself
on fire. I thought was interesting, and of course his little tapes he
had with his young son, KevinJunior, I thought were I thought we're
touching. I thought it was agood scene. My crack pop theory is

(01:02:57):
going to be that Matt is goingto be the judas to Kevin Junior.
I think he's gonna turn on KevinJunior. I think we'll find that out
well before the season's over. Thereis my crack thought there. I'm sticking
to it. And I also liketo point out that my critics who are
upset with me, yes, Iactually did phone in phoned in this week,
So there you go have your showguys. Thanks by hey, Jay,

(01:03:22):
Jack and Mike. It's Michael herecalling from Los Angeles, just calling
him up for the most recent leftoverepisode. I really think that Damon mussed
the mark on this one. Ithought overall was just boring. The storyline
was meandering, and it ultimately hadno payoff. The name of the episode

(01:03:45):
is crazy white Feller thinking, andI feel like you could apply that to
Damon lingelot a crazy white cella thinking. He made another masterpiece episode, but
really it was just a dud.I feel like he could have had so
much more potential. We just wehad all these scenes of him walking in
the desert, you know, andcantering a snake and tiring guy about to

(01:04:06):
light himself on fire. You know. It's just it's just kind of slowed
down and got very uninteresting at parts. I think the most fascinating element was
the very end, that final conversationwith Grace, But I think even that,
as compelling as that was, itdidn't really reveal something groundbreaking. It's

(01:04:29):
kind of like, Okay, yeah, Kevin is the one that they're looking
for. I think it'll go downas an episode that you have to show
someone and apologize afterwards, like,oh sorry, you had to watch that
one. It's part of it.I just not his best work. I
like, I expect more, Ithink, is what I'm saying, especially

(01:04:53):
in such a shortened season. Iagree with you guys in that I thought
all these episodes, we're gonna knockit out of a part, and I
don't think it's some of my expectationsare too high. I just think I
think he can do better. Iknow that I hope the rest of the
season is better than this one,and I hope some of what we saw

(01:05:14):
in this episode has a payoff downthe line, because I think if it
didn't, it was kind of justthere for the sake of being there.
Anyways, hope you have a goodshow, all right, thank you for
those calls. First, Jack,so he wasn't Ethan, he had an
original crack prot theory. Yeah,and it's interesting. I mean, I'm

(01:05:36):
gonna, you know, buy intoit because I was the one that suggested
in the first episode of this seasonthat I thought Matt was going to have
his own little dark side, andI think it's clear that he is going
to, almost like we talked aboutwith Kevin Senior this episode, sort of
do whatever it takes for him towork towards the solution that he wants to
in the end through the Book ofKevin. And So I don't know if

(01:05:56):
it means that Matt will betray Junior, but that could be away he breaks
bad, So I could I couldsee some legitimacy in Jack's theory. There
also kudos to him for doing likea lot of research for that call,
Like he came in any like thenames and the actors, like he phoned
it in, but he actually didas probably some of his best podcasting where
he's in in years. So thanksJack um uh for our next callar Michael.

(01:06:24):
I also I totally neglected to mentionthis in the recap as well,
but I think that Jack did anice job of pointing it out. Scott
Glenn also did a really funny jobhere as well. Was a tour to
four performance across the entire emotional spectrum. But again, I feel like left
Over season three is doing a lotof low key dark humor, and like

(01:06:45):
Scott Glenn's just continued exasperated reactions toeverything around him was really really fantastic,
So I agree with him there aswell. Yes, yes, um all
right, it's next call here fromMichael from Los Angeles. Not happy with
this episode. I feel like it'sa good call because it's a lot of
it. Maybe some of the thoughtsor sentiments of this episode, which I

(01:07:06):
think we've we've covered a bit,but any anything we've missed in terms of
or addressing some of Michael's frustrations thathe had in this call. I think
for me, it really comes downto the difference between binging a show and
waiting a week between episodes, andwhen you've waited a week for an episode

(01:07:29):
especially, we don't know with sucha small order of episodes, and each
one you wait for, you cansometimes if you get an episode like this,
it does feel like, wow,I have to wait another week for
the answers to the questions, oror oh gosh, I hope this pays
off. If you were able tojust go from last week's episode to this
week's episode two, next week's episode, bang bang bang, and get through

(01:07:53):
the season, I don't think thatthey land the same way. And I
think you get to that next episodeand maybe see a little bit more of
how it links last week's to nextweek's a lot faster, and I just
think your opinion changes based on that. And he you know, his opinion
is perfectly valid. I don't agreewith it, but I think until you

(01:08:18):
see the entirety of the series,I don't think we can know exactly whether
or not this was a necessary detouror what value it brings to it.
I mean, I enjoyed it asas a standalone piece, and I enjoyed
it in the course of the seriesthus far. But sure if the next
few episodes never come back to thisand never really referenced it, then I

(01:08:38):
could I could totally understand the outrageabsolutely. I agree with Aji, I
think totally in the moment. Imean, that's what hot takes are meant
for, to sort of build yourfronting rage or your infectious smiles as a
result of this episode. I thinkyou totally have a right to that.
But I will sort of caution peopletoo, no matter what your opinion is,
tamper them as much as you can, as Aj said, until we

(01:09:00):
find out if this pays off ornot. If it turns out not to
and it's a rare swing and amiss on behalf of The Leftover's creators,
so be it. But I havemy own personal faith in Damon and Tom
at this point that they will haveit payoff in some way, in some
shape where you can look back andsay, this makes sense in the grand
narrative of things. Yeah, Iagree, And I think, um uh,

(01:09:27):
the way, maybe maybe apologize atleast on this podcast. We've talked
about season one being is tough toget through season one, but it's worth
it because season two's amazing. Um, I don't necessarily I don't have those
the same feelings on this episode.You know that this is we're going to
be apologizing for this episode when wewhen we talk about it um later because
it does belong. It does notfeel out of place to the story.

(01:09:49):
And uh and honestly it does catchup this this this storyline that we know
has been happening. We've gotten littleglimpses into it, you know, this
whole Kevin Garby Senior going to Australiaand then him showing up in UM the
International Assassin episode. So there's it'sit's a story that matters, um.

(01:10:12):
And it'll feel it feels out ofplaces because we haven't really spending time focusing
on it, um, But itbelongs there. Yeah, it's not like
he knocked on the door of thatcabin and and by laying opened it up
and gave him a tattoo. Yeah, okay, big difference. I mean
he Scott Glen really is a strangerin a strange land in Australia. Oh

(01:10:35):
man. Um. But yeah,but no, Mike, I really appreciate
for the call calling in with thosethoughts. I think, you know,
it's it's it's good to get everybody'sperspective on that. But I think let's
let's let's hold judgment. The panelof podcasters here has said just the whole
judgment. Um until we've got thewhole thing, um and then and then

(01:10:57):
we'll see um all rights. Wellthat is we got for our listener feedback.
There is no crack myth every week. Jack called it in Mike,
any hot takes that you want toput in beyond the great hot takes you
have throughout the episode, any anygrand hot takes, I might as well
quit while I'm ahead at this point, you know, I think there.

(01:11:17):
I think this episode is one largehot take, and like I just mentioned,
I think it's yet to be determinedas to the significance of this episode
is going to play. But Iwill again repeat when I said at the
very top of this podcast taking,it's cyclical, almost like Kevin Senior's opinion
about himself this entire episode. Ithink that this is one of the most
highly contested episodes in the entire historyof The Leftovers, and it is yet

(01:11:43):
to be seen as to where onthe divide it's going to fall. But
I personally am optimistic. You know, it seems like not to spoil too
much about next week, but itseems like we are finally getting Junior and
Norah to Australia. The hopes thatthe father and son are going to meet
up once again this season, andwe might see that narrative play out a
little bit more. But that beingsaid, you know, I can understand

(01:12:03):
where people might find it, asMichael said, boring, meandering, no
payoff, etc. But if youwatch it for one thing, watch it
for Scott Glenn's performance, and numbertwo would be Linsing Duncan's monologue, because
those two were just absolutely fantastic andit makes me always remember that the caliber
performance alone in The Leftovers is secondto none on television. Agreed, Agreed.

(01:12:27):
All right, Well, that's wherewe'll wrap up this episode of Leftovers
with Jay, Jack and Mike.If you elective it's a call, you
can do so at three eight fivethree h nine zero three eleven, call
anytime. Also, you can sendan email to Leftovers JJ at gmail dot
com, Scan's Leftovers JJ at gmaildot com. When I say a special

(01:12:48):
thanks to Tack from Tokyo, Eckhartrichterand Molly the Millennial and all of our
patrons that contribute to our podcasting networkevery single month, if you like to
come on patron, you can doso today by clicking on the become a
patroon link on Ja and Jack dotcom full list of all of our patrons
there that we think this week,I believe we're doing the Patron's choice is

(01:13:12):
a bit of a tease, alittle taste of the big quiz off that
is our next goal, which Ithink is at the twelve fifty a month,
we'll do a big quiz off betweenall the different podcasters, which should
be a lot of fun. Also, if you use Amazon Jane Jack dot

(01:13:32):
com slash Amazon, use the link. Anything you buyd there, a small
percentage of the sales goes to theJay and Jack production fold. Want to
again think aj Mass for a guesthosting this week in place of Jack,
who is with my mom on herbirthday day. Happy birthday, Mom,

(01:13:54):
and I hope you had a greatday. But a j again, this
is your time to plug away.Where can people find you? If and
and they I know they've enjoyed yourfantastic commentary this week, but where can
they find more? Well? Thankyou a lot, j MM Mike for
allowing me to join and chare andtalk about a show that I really really

(01:14:15):
love. If you want to findme on Twitter and discuss anything that I
said here, or anything like that. It's very simple. It's at aj
Mass. Also, you can checkout my writing on ESPN dot com slash
Fantasy, especially if you're in fantasybaseball leagues. I give advice on points
leagues and stuff like that. Everyweek. You can listen to Mike and
I on The Hamster Factor. Youcan find us on iTunes and at podban

(01:14:38):
and hey, if you're a fanof baseball, Yes, it's hot in
here available on Amazon dot com.It's a good read. Awesome. Yeah,
you know, it's not many peopleknow this about me, AJ,
but I was actually a mascot handlerin the Greater Raleigh area. So I

(01:14:58):
was a handler for a couple differentof the local sports mascots. So I
appreciate the mascot arts very much.It's yeah, it's it's it's a quite
a job that a lot of peopleforget. There's an actual mister in the
mister mut suit. So I havemuch respect for anyone who helps helps that

(01:15:19):
process along smoothly. So thank youfor your service. Yes, both helped
Wooly Ball of the durham Balls andMuddy the Mudcats from the Carolina Mudcats.
So awesome, fun times, funtimes, Um but any who, again,
thank you AJ Mike. You doeight bajillion podcasts, including this one

(01:15:44):
and another one on the Change,and I worked the fire Go with Jeremiah.
Mike. But where can people findall of your fantastic, lovely goodness.
You can find me on Twitter ata Mike bloom type. That's where
I slept out messaging for all ofmy podcasts. But yeah, I'm happy
to have a Jon to talk aboutour movie podcast, which is always going.
At this point, we are goingto be covering strictly Ballroom, which
the consulet of the Hamster factor.Just in brief is that AJ shows me

(01:16:08):
a movie that he has seen beforebut I have not. We have talked
about everything from Looper to Donnie Darkoto the Blair Witch projects, so check
that out. We're more than thirtyepisodes deep at that point. But Fargo
is going strong with Jeremiah pan Horse. We just finished the second episode No
Carrie Coon this past episode of Leftover, so I'll have to get my fair
share for this week on Fargo.Awesome, awesome, all right, Well

(01:16:32):
that is it for this week's Leftovers. We'll see you guys next week for
our live show next week Mike istraveling down to Ronleigh, North Carolina for
our podcast weekend meetup weekend. Alot of fun things planned for the weekend
and closing it out with a liveLeftovers with Jay, Jack and Mike.

(01:16:57):
It'll be on YouTube live. Well, we'll send out links on our twitters
and all that fun stuff as weget closer to the day. Um,
and that should be a lot offun. So we'll do a viewing party
for the fourth episode of The Leftoversand we'll be doing a live streaming a
live podcast right after, which shouldbe a lot of fun. The last

(01:17:18):
time we did a live podcast,Mike, you had a fantastic hat.
Do you have any any costuming thatyou you're gonna bring to this next live
show? Could I bring the samehat and claim it's the crocodile dundee hating
I'm projecting my own laziness and sayingthat out loud. It works, It

(01:17:40):
work, um, But that shouldbe a lot of fun. Very excited
uh for for that next weekend.But if you cannot experience live, don't
worry. The show will be postedon all of our feeds. Um.
All right, So well that we'lldo it for this week we'll see you
guys next time. Asta luego andgoodbye, bye bye