October 24, 2025 • 45 mins
Join Kate Bridal and Josh Gilliland for their review of The Nightmare Before Christmas, opening the many legal gifts of trespassing, false imprisonment, kidnapping, false impersonation, and negligent inflection of emotion distress. Tune in for a treat of legal analysis of this two holiday classic.
No part of this recording should be considered legal advice.
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Episode Transcript
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Josh Gilliland (00:05):
Hello everyone, Josh Gilliland here, one of the
founding attorneys of The LegalGeeks.
Our spooky season analysiscontinues with The Nightmare
Before Christmas.
With me to cover this amazingfilm is Kate Bridal, who has
gone Comic-Con with us,WonderCon with us, and a bunch
of other adventures.
(00:25):
Kate, how are you?
Kate Bridal (00:27):
I'm doing great, and I'm very excited about this
because uh yeah, as a as a firmmiddle of the millennial,
millennial, uh, I am uh big intoNightmare Before Christmas.
It was uh very influential inmy childhood.
I had a massive crush on JackSkellington, actually, which I
don't know what that says aboutme, but him and Aladdin.
(00:49):
It's big stuff.
Josh Gilliland (00:51):
Did you see the movie in theaters or did you see
it on video?
Kate Bridal (00:56):
I saw it in the theater.
I remember seeing it in thetheater, and then we I begged my
parents to buy it.
So I definitely also had it andjust watched it over and over
and over again.
Josh Gilliland (01:05):
I saw it in the theater.
It was a family trip, it washigh school at the time.
I am curious to see thedifferent reactions to it and
generational love because itwasn't instant for Disney to
convert the nightmare beforeChristmas into the haunted
mansion.
I don't remember when thathappened, but it is fun to see.
Kate Bridal (01:29):
So cool.
Yeah, I saw it at the ElCapitaine.
They played it while I wasliving in LA and they had a
bunch of the props and theminis.
You know how the El Capitainealways does that.
Um, for those who don't know,it's a theater in Hollywood, and
they uh when they play movies,they usually have stuff from the
movies there, and so it wasreally cool.
They had like the curly hilland you know the little
figurines and everything.
And I met Chris Sarandon atEmerald City Comic-Con many
(01:53):
years ago, and he called mepretty, and I was like Jack
Skellington said I was pretty,and so my my childhood crush
really came back up hard.
Josh Gilliland (02:03):
You know, some people like clemation, and
that's cool.
So we're stop motion, so yes,creeps, yeah, good stuff, good
stuff.
Well, let's talk about the manylegal issues in this fictional
town that's focused on Halloweenyear-round.
Uh, I know there are a lot offolks who would like to do that,
that Halloween's their thing,or there are folks who are like
(02:24):
Christmas is their thing.
Kate Bridal (02:26):
Yep.
Josh Gilliland (02:27):
Um but let's get into the issue with Sally and
Dr.
Finkelstein.
Or is it Stein?
The doctor created Sally.
Is the doctor falselyimprisoning uh Sally?
And as the legal standard inCalifornia is under California
Penal Code Section 236, falseimprisonment is the unlawful
(02:52):
violation of the personalliberty of another.
Kate, what are your thoughts?
Kate Bridal (02:59):
Well, I think as we do frequently at the Legal
Geeks, we have to think aboutthe definition of personhood for
one thing, right?
Like, is Sally a person?
Does she count?
I mean, obviously, I think sheis.
She has a consciousness, uh,and she's she seems to be a
person.
And I I mean, obviously, inthis little world of Halloween
town, there probably would besome different legal standards.
(03:23):
But I mean, she's not even madeof flesh, is she?
She's like a she's like cottonand a doll.
Josh Gilliland (03:31):
And full of leaves.
Yeah, that does make itcomplicated and weird because
the law is not designed for uhartificial intelligence of that
nature.
Uh but I will go with let's sayshe's a person because she acts
like a person, she meets thetest of she's aware of who she
(03:54):
is, she has aspirations, goals,feelings, and shows the
self-awareness that I thinkwould qualify as a person, plus
communicates in a language.
So, like this is yeah, beforewe start giving Orca and dogs,
you know, personhood, likethey're those are animals, it's
(04:17):
a different category.
Kate Bridal (04:19):
She's more in line with a person, and she does have
a human brain, I believe,because later when you see him
building his new one, he isputting a human, squishy brain
in her head, and then it snapson his lips.
Josh Gilliland (04:34):
Yeah, it's like half of his.
Kate Bridal (04:35):
So which right, that's what he does with her.
So maybe but I assume maybeSally then also has a human
brain in her.
Josh Gilliland (04:42):
So there is a narcissistic quality when you
decide I have to make a lady formyself, it's narcissism, it's
my fair lady, which also datesback to you know Greek you know,
mythology as well of you cannotcreate someone to love you.
(05:02):
That's not how love works.
Kate Bridal (05:05):
Gosh, the male loneliness epidemic, what are we
gonna do?
Josh Gilliland (05:09):
Well, it is real, but that's not the
solution to learning how tointeract with other people and
participate in the rest ofsociety.
You can't are there a problemwith guys feeling isolated, yes.
Is the solution to play madscientist and make ladies?
No.
No, you need to learn how toparticipate in society and be of
(05:32):
service to others and actuallycare about where you live.
So don't just heck no, do notdo that.
Kate Bridal (05:41):
Well, in that case, yes, I definitely think there's
there's some false imprisonmentgoing on because she does not
want to be there.
She escapes frequently and hebrings her back by force.
Josh Gilliland (05:51):
Well, from some case law, in order to constitute
a case of false imprisonment,it is essential that there be
some restraint of that person,but it's not necessarily that
there be uh confinement in ajail or prison, any excess of
force or express or impliedthreat of force by which, in
fact, the other person isdeprived of their liberty or is
(06:12):
compelled to remain where hedoes not wish to remain or where
they do not wish to go is falseimprisonment.
Yeah, I think I think we checkthe boxes here uh that we have
false imprisonment going on.
Kate Bridal (06:30):
Yeah, because at the one point he drag he's
trying to drag her back, and shetakes her hand off to get away
from him.
Um her arm, I can't remember,but he's physically he is
physically trying to drag herback, and she doesn't want to
go.
Josh Gilliland (06:42):
Are you familiar with the Greek myth of
Pygmalion?
Kate Bridal (06:45):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's what my fair ladyis based off of, right?
Josh Gilliland (06:48):
Yes, yes, it is, and also pretty woman.
Kate Bridal (06:50):
Yeah.
Josh Gilliland (06:52):
Let's keep going with some of the other issues
that we have.
Uh that Jack's lament goes on along walk and ends up stumbling
into Christmas town.
There's a grove of trees.
We see the other holidaysdepicted.
He opens the door to go toChristmas town, but doesn't go
(07:14):
in.
But uh he's like pulled in by avortex.
Kate Bridal (07:19):
Right.
Josh Gilliland (07:20):
And then he sees it and there's the musical
number.
He dresses as a snowman, he'slooking in windows.
Kate, do you think he'strespassing?
Kate Bridal (07:30):
Some of it, definitely.
Because isn't he in the kid'sroom at the one point when he's
talking uh he's when he'ssinging about their sugar plums,
and the kid is like asleep at abunk bed and he's in there.
He goes in the house and hecreeps around.
Josh Gilliland (07:43):
Yeah, that that that's not good.
I know he's looking throughwindows.
Kate Bridal (07:47):
For sure, yes, he does that.
And the snowman, I can'tremember if it's like in a
public e area, like a park, orif it seems to be in someone's
yard.
Josh Gilliland (07:56):
I I think it's well, it's outside of buildings
and on the sidewalk, or is itright in front of a house or
building?
Yeah, like those are toughissues uh that that you're
dealing with on whether or notthat's trespassing.
Kate Bridal (08:10):
Right, because what what is what is our definition?
We're Californiaing again.
Uh yeah, a land undercultivation or enclosed by a
fence belonging to or occupiedby another, uh, if you willfully
enter upon with that landwithout permission of the
landowner or an agent, you'retrespassing.
Um, or if you're violatingsigns about trespassing, but
(08:34):
that doesn't seem to be the casehere.
But I definitely think, yeah,he's going, he is definitely
going into people's he goes intoone for sure.
One house.
I'm pretty positive.
Josh Gilliland (08:45):
Yeah, it's we're dealing with uh one of the
other uh cases getting intothis, and this is from a Ralph's
grocery store, uh, the juryconsultants, trespasses and
unlawful interference with propuh with possession of property.
The elements of trespass arethe plaintiff's ownership or
control of the property, thedefendant's intentional,
(09:06):
reckless, or negligent entryinto the property, lack of
permission for the entry or actsin excess of permission for
harm.
And five, the depot defendant'sconduct was a substantial
factor in causing the harm, andthat's from Kelly.
Kate Bridal (09:22):
Well, the harm element that is interesting.
I was I was thinking about thatearlier because that does he
cause harm?
I don't know.
Like he the kid wakes up and hedoesn't see him in there, he
just kind of has a sense likesomeone's in my room.
Josh Gilliland (09:35):
But the trespass that completes with theft, and
because when he and we'll talkabout this with the next when he
goes back to Halloween town,he's in a snowmobile of loaded
up loaded up, so it's like hetook the snowmobile and all the
swag that he grabbed.
Kate Bridal (09:53):
Who knows where he got it?
Because like it's Christmastown, so who knows if there
aren't just presents fallingfrom the sky or but it does seem
to be that he does that no noneof them know he's there because
you could kind of assume, like,oh, maybe he eventually did
make himself known, and theywere all like, Great, here's
some stuff, but I doubt that hecould get away with doing that.
So I don't think that that'sthe case.
I think you're right, and he hetakes it.
Josh Gilliland (10:16):
That it's heavily implied.
I mean, would the folks atChristmas town welcome a
skeleton-looking dude who'slike, hey everybody, and you
know, yeah, he creeps around thewhole song, so it certainly
doesn't seem like he has anyintention of revealing himself
to them.
Kate Bridal (10:32):
No, because again, he's taking a snowmobile is a
bold move, that's loud.
Josh Gilliland (10:37):
And he's in a place completely alien, uh,
right to what he knows.
It's like absolutely no one'sdead.
And I mean, I won't bring him asong because that's weird and I
can't sing, and I don't knowall the lyrics.
So again, a lot of negatives.
But you know, again, he's doingthe what's this, what's this
exploring.
It's one thing to be in thepublic square because it's a
(10:59):
public, you know, like wherethere's like a right to be, and
he's well, it's not like there'sa sign on Christmas Town that
says no, no entry, ortrespassers will be prosecuted.
Like, that's not a thing.
When you're creeping aroundwindows and looking in, like
it's like we're we're nowgetting into invasion of privacy
on top of trespass.
(11:19):
It's just it's like it's a it'sa beautiful musical number that
people love singing along to.
Like, that's a fact.
There are cons where thathappens, and people are having
the best time with others wholove this movie, singing their
hearts out.
That stuff is cool.
But lawyers being the buzzkillsas we are, we looked at it.
(11:45):
It's like uh uh-uh, you're onthe naughty list, dude.
Kate Bridal (11:49):
Like you don't and intent.
Oh, sorry, sorry, go ahead.
Josh Gilliland (11:52):
No, no, please.
Kate Bridal (11:53):
I was just gonna say there isn't really seen
because there is there isn'tthat intent element because he
doesn't mean to be, you know,he's not intending to.
I don't even know if herealizes that he's violating
anybody's privacy.
Although, you know what,Halloween town has houses.
I think he knows that goinginto somebody's house is not
cool, but he's so caught up thathe's not intending any harm,
(12:14):
but that's not really a part ofan element of the statute,
right?
Because it's also negligent,and yeah, I think we could argue
that's what he's doing, is he'sbeing reckless or negligent in
his trespass.
Josh Gilliland (12:26):
It's like your honor, I broke into song, I was
just caught up in the momentbefore I broke into the house.
Kate Bridal (12:32):
I broke into song, and that makes it fine.
Josh Gilliland (12:36):
It's like, well, okay, he said he was sorry.
It's like, I don't think hedoes.
Like, I don't think there's anacknowledgement until the end of
whoops, I made a bad lifechoice here, which brings us to
the lesson.
Yeah, yeah, it's God forbidstories have lessons.
Kate Bridal (12:55):
Don't appropriate other people's cultures.
That's the kind of nightmarebefore Christmas.
Josh Gilliland (13:01):
I I don't know if that's the exact intent.
I mean, because it's supposedto be welcoming, like, welcome
everybody, like we're sharing,like there's and they do at the
end, they get along, but don'ttake someone else's thing, you
can enjoy it.
I remember the re positivereaction to this movie when it
came out, uh, seeing folkshaving fun.
(13:25):
And I remember leaving thetheater with my mom and brother
and thinking, what holiday am Iin the mood now for?
Because I felt very confused.
And I don't remember uh this isa notable fact, if it came out
around Halloween or if it camearound time of year, yeah, where
it came out around Christmastime, because it's one of those
(13:47):
movies that can be both.
Kate Bridal (13:49):
Maybe they put it out in between.
Josh Gilliland (13:51):
Yeah, which again, that too would work.
Again, money finds a way.
So if you release it beforeHalloween, you could have a long
theatrical run.
Kate Bridal (14:01):
It was Halloween, it was October 29th, 1993.
Josh Gilliland (14:04):
Okay, that makes sense.
Yep.
So yeah, I worked at a movie.
Kate Bridal (14:08):
That's what it would have been my instinct,
yeah.
Josh Gilliland (14:10):
I worked at a movie theater during that time
period.
Fond memories of this film.
I then went to law school andbecame a buzzkill.
Jack's theft from HalloweenTown or Christmas Town.
We do see him roll up with asnowmobile with items from
Christmas Town.
So let's talk.
There's theft, there's larceny,there's a few things that could
(14:31):
be going on here.
So just for the sake of whatthe law says about theft, every
person who enters any house,room, apartment, tenement, shop,
warehouse, store, bill, bar,and stable, outhouse, or other
building, tent, vessel, floatinghome, wow, railroad car, locked
(14:53):
or sealed cargo container,whether or not mounted on a
vehicle, trailer coach, anyhouse, car defined in the
vehicle code, and an inhabitedcamper.
Kate Bridal (15:06):
Aircraft, too.
Wow.
They may have had all of theall of their bases on this one.
Josh Gilliland (15:11):
Basically, anything that has a locked door
where people can be could beseen as larceny/slash theft.
Uh, entering you can get intoan intent to commit grand theft,
felony, burglary.
So again, it's it's a broaddefinition.
And the issue is is itinhabited?
You know, that doesn't mean itneeds to be used as a dwelling
(15:32):
purpose at the time of theincident.
Kate Bridal (15:34):
I think this depends.
I think this depends becausethey he has to have the intent
to commit the theft when he goesin.
And do we think he we don't seethis portion, we don't see
where he's getting stuff.
Do you think he breaks insomewhere and because he sees
the presence and is like, that'sI want that?
Or do you think he findshimself in a place and is
looking around and is like, thenhe decides to take stuff?
(15:57):
Maybe he is in a barn or awarehouse and he sees the
snowmobile full of presents andis just like, I'm gonna ride
that home and show people what'sgoing on.
But he didn't necessarily meanto do that when he initially
entered.
Josh Gilliland (16:10):
So neither of us do criminal law, but that's too
little.
Kate Bridal (16:15):
I work for the public defender's office.
That's why I'm taking thedefense side.
Josh Gilliland (16:19):
Naturally, it's and you're advocating well,
okay.
That's a plausible argument,but I think as soon as you get
into a motor vehicle beingtaken, I do think I don't see a
good auto petty larceny at thatpoint of like, oh, look, some
packages.
We don't like people who stealpackages from front porches.
(16:40):
I I see more intent here, eventhough we don't see him breaking
you know into places, butsomeone has to miss that
snowmobile.
Enough stuff taken that peoplewould notice, unless he's spread
it out, it's like one item perhousehold, but then he's entered
multiple households, and Ithink the issue is Yeah, and
(17:00):
he's just done it.
Kate Bridal (17:02):
And by the by the second or third, he's obviously
going in there to take stuff, sothen you do have it.
Yeah, it's it's like this isnow pillaging, and it's I
actually have a funny storyabout a package getting stolen
off my doorstep once because Iit's the only time it's ever
happened to me, they were theleast fortunate thieves in the
world because all that was in itwas a box of chalk and a copy
(17:25):
of The Sound and the Fury.
And I was like, have fun withsome real dense reading material
and a lot of chalk.
Josh Gilliland (17:35):
I have not.
Kate Bridal (17:36):
They probably thought it was like an iPhone or
something.
They must have been sodisappointed.
Josh Gilliland (17:41):
Wow.
Again, crime doesn't pay.
Kate Bridal (17:44):
There you go.
You just get Faulkner, that'sall you get.
Josh Gilliland (17:47):
Wow.
I want an essay.
That's your punishment.
Kate Bridal (17:53):
Um 10,000 words on this absolutely borderline
incomprehensible book, please.
Josh Gilliland (18:02):
Let's talk about the entire town, like, decides
to get in on this.
And so there's so you got thetown getting into it, and then
Sally drugging the doctor so shecould get out.
Let's take Sally drugging thedoctor with and having frog's
breath and all that good stuffto incapacitate him so she could
(18:23):
get out, and then we can getinto whether or not a town can
has a can't have a conspiracy.
Kate Bridal (18:28):
Yeah.
Josh Gilliland (18:31):
What are your thoughts on a form of
self-defense to kidnapping thatcan can include lethal force for
escaping?
What are your thoughts on Sallydrugging the doctor in order to
get out?
Kate Bridal (18:48):
Yeah, so I guess I guess because we define, we said
false imprisonment for sure.
Do we think she's kidnapped?
Is maybe a slightly differentstandard.
If you're created somewhere andthen you are forced to remain
in that place, have you beenkidnapped?
Josh Gilliland (19:09):
So if you are born, for example, in your home
and then your parents never letyou leave your home, is it it's
definitely, I think, more on thefalse imprisonment side than
kidnapping, unless they take theindividual somewhere.
Like there's if you listen tolast podcast on the left, there
was a very creepy German dudewho built a bunker and like Oh,
(19:32):
yes, familiar.
Took the daughter down thereand kept her there for years.
Kate Bridal (19:37):
Yep.
And then she had multiple kidsdown there through him.
Josh Gilliland (19:42):
Horrific on so many levels.
I think that's kidnapping.
Because it moved her from oneplace into a place she didn't
want to be.
That's because there can be afine line between the two.
Kate Bridal (19:55):
But Sally seems pretty free to wander through
the whole house, and she'sallowed to go outside at times.
She's not just trapped in thetower all the time.
Josh Gilliland (20:04):
And she does go back.
Kate Bridal (20:05):
She does go back.
She in that incident, yeah, shedoes.
She just wants to go see Jack.
Josh Gilliland (20:13):
Yeah.
Kate Bridal (20:15):
She's got a crush and she's gonna poison her dad
to get out of the house to gosee her boyfriend.
That's all.
Josh Gilliland (20:21):
And but they're not established yet.
That part's not important.
Kate Bridal (20:23):
No, no.
Josh Gilliland (20:24):
But the drugging dad to get out of the house.
Kate Bridal (20:28):
I don't know.
I don't know if she's got ithere.
I I think that I mean, I loveSally.
I want to defend her, but Idon't know.
This would be a tough one.
Josh Gilliland (20:38):
Yeah, I think.
Kate Bridal (20:39):
I think you could say she was like under some
manner of duress.
But then, like you said, allshe does is she like brings Jack
wine and then she goes home.
Josh Gilliland (20:49):
It's not like she escapes.
Kate Bridal (20:51):
Right.
Josh Gilliland (20:52):
It'd be a very different situation if she
escapes the dude tormenting her.
Kate Bridal (20:58):
Yeah.
Josh Gilliland (20:59):
But she goes back and that continues to be
home.
Kate Bridal (21:03):
And she's obviously thinking of it.
Well, she does it regularly andcomes back.
That's just her way of doingwhat she wants of like sneaking
out of the house to do what shewants.
Josh Gilliland (21:14):
Yeah, and it's again, how old is she?
I mean, that's where are theright that's where like the
issue of Frankenstein comes in.
It's like it looks like a35-year-old dude made up of
other dudes.
Kate Bridal (21:31):
Is he but he's only been alive for a year?
Josh Gilliland (21:35):
Yeah, but the prior brain was like in in its
40s.
Kate Bridal (21:40):
I mean, like it gets really he learns fast and
he learns to read, and yeah, Idon't know.
Josh Gilliland (21:45):
It gets super complicated when because that's
not normal, like that that's notwhat we experience.
Kate Bridal (21:52):
And she uh she does present as pretty much an
adult, kind of a teenage girl.
Yeah, like if if there was agirl who her dad was just
really, really strict and shewas continually knocking him out
with drugs to leave the house.
I don't I don't know that thatgirl would have uh much of an
argument, to be honest.
Josh Gilliland (22:11):
Yeah, but if it's knocked the dad out and
then goes to child protectiveservices, right?
That's different.
Kate Bridal (22:17):
Right.
Josh Gilliland (22:18):
That that's a very in like that's not what's
happening here.
Kate Bridal (22:21):
She's not looking for I don't know, I don't know
all the rules around this, butyou could maybe get into like uh
an argument of like continued,you know, kind of like they do
with domestic abuse cases thatsometimes end in tragedy murder.
Uh, you know, that there is acontinuous kind of state of
(22:43):
duress, and everyone always, ofcourse, in this case is like,
well, why didn't you just leave?
And it's like, because you'rean idiot.
Um, but you know, becausethings are complicated and
people get brainwashed, and youknow, especially when it's a
like parent-child relationship,it's very complicated.
So, you know, maybe there'ssomething there that you could
defend her that she'scontinuously kind of under this
(23:05):
stress.
Josh Gilliland (23:06):
Agreed.
I I don't like the victimblaming.
Yeah, like you can't, ifsomebody's in a bad situation
where it's whether it's like ahorrific family situation or a
nation, like you can't just beflippant about oh, there were
enough Germans that didn't likethe Nazis.
Why didn't they stop it?
(23:28):
Moving forward.
Can a town have a conspiracy?
For those who don't know therules with conspiracy, it's it's
an agreement by at least twopeople to engage in a criminal
enterprise.
Jack recruiting people to goafter Christmas town sounds like
a conspiracy, but then electedofficials get involved and it
(23:50):
turns into a matter of townpolicy.
And as we learned in our Jawsmock trial, public officials
deciding on a course of actionis very difficult to prosecute
or to sue them.
Uh unless they're actually likeplanning a murder.
Kate Bridal (24:13):
Well, they're planning a kidnapping.
Josh Gilliland (24:15):
They're planning a kidnapping.
Kate Bridal (24:16):
I am an entity who is known to murder pretty
heavily, I would say he has areputation, Oogie Boogie.
Yeah, he's got a whole littlemurder casino down there.
Josh Gilliland (24:28):
But Jack also says he doesn't want Oogie
Boogie involved.
Kate Bridal (24:32):
That is true, that is true, but the officials get
him involved, right?
Josh Gilliland (24:37):
Uh it's the it's it lockstok barrel, the three
kids.
Yeah, yeah.
Kate Bridal (24:40):
And so who sends them out?
Josh Gilliland (24:43):
Jack sends them out to kidnap the Santa Claus.
Kate Bridal (24:47):
Oh, right, but with the instruction that they not
get Oogie Boogie involved,that's right.
Josh Gilliland (24:51):
What they do goes against Jack's
instructions.
Like they they take the sidequest with a separate
conspiracy.
Kate Bridal (24:59):
But after Jack dismisses Santa Claus, because
they bring him to Jack first tofulfill their obligation.
Josh Gilliland (25:09):
And then he ends up with a boogie.
Yeah, this gets weird becausefrom a policy standpoint,
there's not often you see a townengaged in a criminal
enterprise.
And right if it is, it's like awar crime.
Kate Bridal (25:25):
But they are intending to kidnap him.
Josh Gilliland (25:27):
So But it's like we're taking over Christmas, is
the issue.
Kate Bridal (25:34):
But you know that the kidnapping is an essential
element of that part, so youknow it's gonna be happening.
I keep thinking of like likemafia cases, like conspiracy
cases that I was taught, youknow.
If you have a town that's runby the mob, I don't know.
Josh Gilliland (25:52):
Yeah, it's it's a very weird mix of what's
happening here.
I think it's I think there is agood criminal conspiracy at
issue.
The fact it turns into a townpolicy is just weird.
Kate Bridal (26:07):
Uh yeah, but I don't think that stops it from
being a criminal conspiracy inthis case, because it is very
blatantly a crime.
Josh Gilliland (26:16):
Listening to the last podcast on the left, which
is doing a series on Himmlerright now, you're like
concentration camps had supporttowns.
Right.
You know, it created business,and the the town existed to
survive the camp, uh, sustainthe camp.
There are other examples oflike an industry builds up and
(26:36):
there's a support town for it.
You could are prosecute, like,okay, you're involved in a war
crime.
We're going after everybody.
Kate Bridal (26:45):
Prime example is a good, is a good one because I'm
trying to think of anotherinstance where it's like because
Christmas Town, they almostseem to be more like I know
they're called towns, but theyseem more like countries,
really, because they're sodifferent and hard to get to
from each other.
I guess not that hard if youjust walk into the woods.
I guess no one's doing that.
Josh Gilliland (27:05):
It's like a nation state, like a city state.
Kate Bridal (27:08):
And Santa's like their leader, it's kind of like
they're kidnapping the presidentof another country.
Josh Gilliland (27:13):
Yeah, I again we're dealing with fables and
holidays, and so it's like thisis beyond the keen of mortal men
that's at play here.
But again, it is wacky andweird.
But I think there's an argumentthat you could prosecute
everyone that participates.
Sally wasn't the only one noton board.
I think you know, like everyoneelse is a collaborator that
(27:36):
could up for prosecution, butthen again, it's a Christmas
miracle for them not to all endup before the hag because there
are other issues that takeplace.
So a lot of them.
It's a long, long list.
All right, we it's falseimpersonation.
Jack pretends to be Santa, andwhile he's got the outfit and
he's doing what Santa does,people immediately go like that.
(27:58):
That's not Santa.
What's your thoughts on it?
Is there false impersonationtaking place here?
Kate Bridal (28:04):
Yeah, I think I'm latching onto the same thing you
are, which is that it has to bea credible impersonation.
And I don't think that it is.
He's got the outfit, I guess,but he is clearly an extremely
skinny, much taller skeletonman.
He doesn't have like a maskthat looks like Santa.
He has like the beard, but he'suh he's obviously not Santa
(28:27):
Claus.
And as you said, everyonefigures it out pretty quick.
Josh Gilliland (28:30):
Yeah, because he's not he's doing his own spin
on the delivering toys, becausethe toys that have been made by
Halloween Town for Christmasaren't normal Christmas toys.
Raises the issue (28:43):
are those defective toys or are they just
inherently dangerous toys doingexactly what they're supposed to
be doing?
Kate Bridal (28:52):
I would say inherently dangerous.
They know it, they know whatthey want them to be.
They're doing exactly what theHalloween Town people would want
their toys to do and what theirtoys do.
So they, you know, they're notdefective, they didn't make it
and it's acting wrong.
They are just inherentlydangerous, definitely, I think
on that one.
Josh Gilliland (29:11):
Yeah, I agree with that.
Because they again, there's acultural difference here of
like, what isn't this?
I thought this would be fun.
Kate Bridal (29:18):
Right.
Yeah.
If a firework goes off in yourface, it's not necessarily
defective.
Josh Gilliland (29:24):
But no, you just that no, you should not have
done that.
And but the kids don't who aregetting this don't know that.
They're looking at this goinglike, no, it's like there's the
snake eating the Christmas tree,there's all kinds of my
favorite one.
Kate Bridal (29:38):
That kid's face just screaming is the best.
Josh Gilliland (29:43):
Yeah, it's very memorable.
Kate Bridal (29:44):
So again, the ones getting chased down the hallway
by the Jack in the Box,terrifying.
Josh Gilliland (29:49):
Yes.
Which raises the issue is theirnegligent infliction of
emotional distress.
I I have my answer.
What do you think?
Kate Bridal (29:58):
Yeah, I think so.
Josh Gilliland (30:00):
Yeah, slam dunk.
Like, there's no question.
Kate Bridal (30:02):
Like, uh definitely negligent, definitely not
intentional.
They're trying to bring joy.
Josh Gilliland (30:07):
But yeah, what you guys made a mistake.
This is wrong, and you shouldnot be making toys that hurt
people.
But thinking back to their songat the beginning, they're not
mean.
They're they think like havingscary things is fun, just as
people like scary movies.
Like it's exactly just becauseyou know, again, getting into
(30:29):
like satanic panic type typemindset, just because you like a
scary movie or video game doesnot mean you're gonna go out and
start stealing Ferraris andblowing up buildings.
Kate Bridal (30:41):
No, that's not no, no, no, and the stats prove
that.
Josh Gilliland (30:48):
So we have kidnapped.
Let's talk about Santa's.
There's kidnapping of Santa,there's torture of Santa, and
there's attempted murder ofSanta.
This shouldn't take long, butyeah, Santa's kidnapped.
Put in a bag.
Kate Bridal (30:59):
They have a whole song about it.
It's called Kidnap the SantaClaus.
Josh Gilliland (31:03):
Yeah, we're gonna call that a party
admission.
Kate Bridal (31:07):
Yes, I would say so.
Josh Gilliland (31:08):
I mean, they they use the word kidnap in the
song, they know exactly whatthey were doing.
Kate Bridal (31:14):
Kidnap some random guy.
Kidnap this particular humanbeing, yeah, or whatever he is,
elf.
Josh Gilliland (31:20):
When Santa ends up in Oogie Boogie's lair, like
he's strapped to a table.
And there's like the spinningwheel, and there's like rolling
dice, there's all kinds of likeweird games of chance happening.
Yeah, well, I we we havetorture.
Like we yeah, for sure.
Sally comes in trying to savethe day, also gets kidnapped
(31:42):
because she's tied up.
Yeah, nice having removablehands and legs, but that that
doesn't go as planned.
And then Jack comes in and weget into attempted murder, and
like you raised the attemptedmurder issue.
Can you explore it for us?
Kate Bridal (31:57):
Yes, so I think really the most compelling case
of attempted murder is againstSally because he's jacking that
table up and trying to pour herinto the lava.
And the only defense I thoughtof that he might have would be
like, well, I didn't have theintent, necessarily the intent
to kill her because I'm rollingthe dice to see if the table is
gonna go far enough to dump herin.
But then he rolls snake eyesand he hits the table so that he
(32:20):
gets 11, uh, so he can dump herinto the lava.
So I think there's it'd be atough one to not say that he was
attempting to murder her andshe only survives because Jack
jumps in and saves her.
And then he is launchingeverything he has at Jack and
having the little robots withthe guns shoot at him and all
sorts of stuff.
And he does say uh veryblatantly, you know, I thought I
(32:45):
heard you were dead, you mustbe double dead, and then he hits
the button and gets him going.
So he's trying to obviously tryto kill him.
Yeah, if you can kill askeleton, which apparently you
can't in this universe.
Josh Gilliland (32:55):
So it's defense of others that Jack is doing
because there's alife-threatening situation posed
to Sally and Santa, and he goesin to save the day and does
because that's that's whatheroes do, and he also realizes
whoops, which gets into thepublic response before part of
Jack's redemption arc of goingin like NORAD scrambles, right?
(33:20):
You know, anti-aircraft gunsare going off to shoot down the
false Santa Claus.
A country has its right todefend its airspace, especially
from children who are gettingharmed.
So, yeah, I would sayeverything that that's a lawful
use of military force to uhshoot down an active threat to
the country.
Kate Bridal (33:41):
Yes, yeah.
Well, and that's not even I wasabout to say it's interesting
Christmas town has all that, butI forgot.
That's like on earth, that'slike normal time.
They're going, they're visitingthe US and other countries and
doing that, and they're they'rethe ones shooting them down.
I had a weird sign.
I did not re-watch this becauseI was like, I know this
forwards and backwards, which Istill do pretty much, but there
are a couple of nuances that Iwas like, oh right, delivering
(34:04):
presents in Christmas town.
He's delivering presents onearth, yeah.
Josh Gilliland (34:07):
Yeah, which is you know the portal connection
between the two is not fullydescribed, nor does it be.
No, it is not um, and the otherplaces are teased, and we don't
go there because Thanksgivingcould be super tasty.
Kate Bridal (34:19):
Or super racist.
Josh Gilliland (34:21):
Oh, no, I'm gonna.
I just want lots of turkey,gravy, and mashed potatoes and
stuff.
And I think that's probablywhat it is.
That'd be nice.
Kate Bridal (34:32):
Anyway, we oh, I do also have one more thought on
because I hadn't even thoughtabout the fact that Jack then
does kill Oogie Boogie.
But Oogie Boogie is kind ofhe's like a collective
consciousness, it seems, of abunch of little bugs.
And so Jack dumps most of themin the lava by pulling on his
string, but then Santa crushesthe last one.
So is Santa gonna have todefend himself against for
(34:56):
killing a bug?
Killing Oogie Boogie, though.
It's his consciousness, right?
He was a being made of all ofthese smaller beings.
Has he as are we all really?
Josh Gilliland (35:08):
Yeah, has Santa technically escaped at that
point and the danger over?
Kate Bridal (35:13):
Or there's one bug left crawling at him, and he
just steps on it, and then hegets very huffy and in control.
So I don't know that he wasfeeling threatened at that
point.
Josh Gilliland (35:22):
Yeah, um, maybe it's a warning.
Kate Bridal (35:28):
Shots fired by Santa.
Josh Gilliland (35:30):
Yeah, it's like and thinking of the South Park
where red slay down.
Kate Bridal (35:36):
Right.
Yeah.
Josh Gilliland (35:37):
Where Santa says, I just couldn't do it.
I couldn't let him live.
Is that what's happening here?
So I don't know.
Kate Bridal (35:45):
He just seems kind of pissed off, honestly.
He's just like, but I I don'tyou can't blame him.
He was just kidnapped by theman.
I do still think it's you know,he Jack was doing it in defense
of others, and who knows ifthat one little bug could have
crawled off at a reformed OogieBoogie somewhere.
Josh Gilliland (36:00):
So Santa's had a needs like quality spa time
because like I'm not quite sureif it's been a couple days that
he was kidnapped and tortured.
You could argue that Santawasn't hankery or escaping being
kidnapped and attempted murder,would might have been under
duress and not thinking clearlywhen he crushed a bug.
Kate Bridal (36:21):
He's tied up on it.
Can you imagine lawyers willreally relate to this?
What if you had a courtdeadline or a trial and you were
kidnapped and tied up and youknew that it was continuing
without you with someonecompletely incompetent standing
in for you?
That's like the ultimate stressdream for most people, but
especially I feel likeattorneys, especially.
(36:42):
It's your one, it's yourbusiest night of the year, and
this dude is keeping you fromdoing your job.
Justifiable homicide rightthere.
Josh Gilliland (36:52):
Crush the bug.
Yeah, it's uh no jury's goingto convict.
Because it's like when you whenyou think about planet Earth is
in turmoil right now because ofall of the horrific gifts that
were dropped on children thatarguably caused harm.
Kate Bridal (37:10):
I thought you were talking, I thought you were
talking about real life, andeven up until you were like,
because of all the horrificgifts that have been dropped.
I was like, uh-huh.
Yeah, we are, we are inturmoil.
I was like following along withyou, and then you said
children, and I was like, oh,he's talking about the movie.
That's the state of the worldright now.
Josh Gilliland (37:30):
Yeah, everyone's a little freaked out, and
everybody needs a hug.
It's like, yeah, again, roughtime for everybody.
So uh everybody's stressed,everybody's really stressed,
right?
With that slip.
Again, there's forgiveness,like redemption.
Uh, there are Christmasmiracles.
Because Santa's like, of courseI can do this, goes out and
does it because that's whatSanta does.
(37:51):
And there's a detente, andeveryone plays nice at the end.
Kate Bridal (37:55):
So hooray.
Josh Gilliland (37:56):
Yeah, it's like again, Christmas miracle, which
is like again the moral of thestory that we're all supposed to
get along and not be weirdabout it.
Kate Bridal (38:06):
Yeah, I want a t-shirt that says get along and
don't be weird about it.
That's the perfect thing I wantright now in my life.
Get along and don't be weirdabout it.
Josh Gilliland (38:15):
Yeah, again, it's the Bill and Ted Mantra.
Uh yeah, yeah.
It's uh just again, Bill andTed rules of be excellent to
each other.
Kate Bridal (38:27):
Exactly.
We all need to everybody needsto watch Bill and Ted.
That is healing.
Josh Gilliland (38:34):
It is.
Go go have the Ziggy Piggy,like it's just go bowling, just
learn to be cool to each other.
Yeah, be groovy.
That said, this is a groovyfilm.
No, the soundtrack, I I don'tremember what anniversary it
was, but they you know, it'slike Patrick Stewart reading the
(38:55):
story.
Kate Bridal (38:55):
I am oh yes, and Fiona Apple does the Sally's
song.
Yeah, I have that.
It's beautiful.
Josh Gilliland (39:02):
Yeah, very nicely done.
But again, this is a again,it's a holiday classic spanning
two holidays.
Like Disney has it up for aquarter, so it goes up in
September for the in the hauntedmansions, like they'll keep it
through Christmas.
Kate Bridal (39:19):
Yeah, well, that was Christmas is encroaching on
Halloween now.
I don't appreciate it.
Like, there's already Christmasstuff.
I'm like, it's not at leastwait for Halloween to be done.
We used to wait forThanksgiving to be done.
Do you remember those days?
Josh Gilliland (39:30):
I prefer those days because Thanksgiving's not
a speed bump.
So lame that I'm a mindset thatyou know Thanksgiving is truly
established by President Lincolnduring the Civil War, because
his two proclamations are verymeaningful about people you know
(39:52):
giving stock in what they have.
Uh the country was in horrificturmoil with what was going on
with the bloodiest conflict inour history, by way of
comparison.
If we were to build a Vietnammemorial style uh memorial for
those killed in the Civil War,it would be the size of 11
(40:15):
Nimitz class aircraft carriersstem to stern.
11 of them.
Kate Bridal (40:23):
If you've never seen an aircraft carrier, that
is massive.
One is massive.
Josh Gilliland (40:28):
Yeah.
Now imagine being 11 long.
Like that's the number ofpeople who died.
And and with that, pressure andstress, and how Lincoln looks
like he ages 20 years and fouris you know the reminder of like
what Thanksgiving's about.
So Thanksgiving is not a speedbump between Halloween to
Christmas, each are valid indifferent ways.
(40:52):
Halloween's a ton of fun.
Kids are dressing up, havingthe time of their lives.
Go and trick-or-treat it.
Like that's to me, that's whatit's about.
It's fun having candy andwaiting and you know, seeing
folks and celebrating it.
There are people who doparties, there are people who
like dressing up.
There are lots of ways tocelebrate it.
Thanksgiving, great time withfamily, friends.
(41:14):
I happen to love turkey.
Like it's a really fun, youknow, it's turkey and mashed
potatoes and gravy.
That's that's again, rock on.
I suddenly want it.
And then you get to Christmas.
I also like turkey atChristmas, but I'm funny that
way.
Uh, all of those things areimportant, and it's it's like
(41:35):
Thanksgiving's not a speed bump.
Kate Bridal (41:36):
It's a moment to check in with gratitude and
whatnot, and you know, all thoseall those good things to it's
getting harder every year thelast couple of years, but you
know, we're gonna find things ofsomething.
Josh Gilliland (41:51):
Think about what those felt during the Civil
War.
Right.
All of that aside, like, don'tlose fate is, I think, the
important lesson of don't givein, don't surrender, look ahead.
And uh, because again, thecountry's been through stressful
things before.
Luckily, that has not includeddangerous toys being dropped off
(42:17):
by a skeleton man dressed toSanta, because who do you sue uh
when that happens?
Kate Bridal (42:22):
So yeah, seriously.
Josh Gilliland (42:25):
That might be an interesting insurance claim.
Kate Bridal (42:28):
Oh, there you go.
Yeah, yeah.
Josh Gilliland (42:30):
Is that an act of that somebody you invite like
odd that we don't recognize youinvited in someone to as part
of a social contract by leavingout cookies and milk?
You were good all year, youwrote a letter, you expected a
nice present, and instead youget something eating the
(42:53):
Christmas tree or chasing youdown the hall.
And the issue is what would ahomeowner's policy cover that
for injuries sustained?
I don't know the answer tothat.
Kate Bridal (43:07):
That is a good question, though.
That's one to explore down theline.
Josh Gilliland (43:11):
Yeah, so that's a yeah, or go get a policy and
see what that actually mightentail because that's that's an
I don't know.
Is it covered?
Step one, step one in readingan insurance policy.
Look at what's covered.
Yeah, step step two of readingthe insurance policy.
What are the exceptions?
Don't skip part one.
(43:33):
Super important.
Do not skip part one.
A lot of people do.
Great.
Kate Bridal (43:39):
So theory, not legal, not technically legal
advice.
Josh Gilliland (43:43):
Not technically legal advice.
No, no, like that, but that'show I would approach it.
I'm not saying there are otherswho reasonable minds can differ
and they would figure out someother way.
That's good advice.
So, Kate, you mentioned yourother podcast.
Where can people find yourother work?
Kate Bridal (43:57):
Yes.
Uh, so I do have a podcastcalled Now It's Ruined.
My best friend and I ruineveryday objects, people, events
with dark history or factsabout them.
So we've ruined things likechainsaws, hammocks, gin and
tonics, hello kitty.
Uh, and we are doing aHalloween episode that is coming
out October 22nd uh aboutHalloween candy.
(44:19):
So get ready for that.
Um and uh and that episodeactually I learned that the
first town wide celebration ofHalloween in the United States
was in Anoka, Minnesota.
I'm from Minnesota.
So fun fact for you to take outto your to your friends.
We're like try and get as muchhistory as we can in there, and
it's a lot of fun.
You can find it on any platformat Now It's Ruined.
(44:41):
We are on Patreon, we're onInstagram, and I am on Instagram
and TikTok at Bridal Party ofFive, number of five.
Josh Gilliland (44:47):
So what year was that first Halloween?
Kate Bridal (44:50):
You know, I don't know that off the top of my
head.
I'm editing the episode now,but I don't I'm bad with
numbers, so she might have toldus, and I don't remember that,
but I just remember it was aNoka.
Josh Gilliland (45:00):
It's okay.
I'm cursed by rememberingdates.
Kate Bridal (45:02):
So let's it's oh great, we'd be a good team
because I I'll remembereverything but the numbers in a
fact.
Josh Gilliland (45:09):
No, no, I'm pretty good with dates.
So all right.
With that said, everyone,thanks for listening.
Talking about Halloween is fun,and it because it's spooky
season, and we just did a tickuh kickoff for Thanksgiving and
Christmas, so that that's alittle weird and new.
But everyone, wherever you are,stay safe, stay healthy, and
(45:30):
stay geeky.
Take care.
Hello everyone, Josh Gilliland here, one of the
founding attorneys of The LegalGeeks.
Our spooky season analysiscontinues with The Nightmare
Before Christmas.
With me to cover this amazingfilm is Kate Bridal, who has
gone Comic-Con with us,WonderCon with us, and a bunch
of other adventures.
(00:25):
Kate, how are you?
Kate Bridal (00:27):
I'm doing great, and I'm very excited about this
because uh yeah, as a as a firmmiddle of the millennial,
millennial, uh, I am uh big intoNightmare Before Christmas.
It was uh very influential inmy childhood.
I had a massive crush on JackSkellington, actually, which I
don't know what that says aboutme, but him and Aladdin.
(00:49):
It's big stuff.
Josh Gilliland (00:51):
Did you see the movie in theaters or did you see
it on video?
Kate Bridal (00:56):
I saw it in the theater.
I remember seeing it in thetheater, and then we I begged my
parents to buy it.
So I definitely also had it andjust watched it over and over
and over again.
Josh Gilliland (01:05):
I saw it in the theater.
It was a family trip, it washigh school at the time.
I am curious to see thedifferent reactions to it and
generational love because itwasn't instant for Disney to
convert the nightmare beforeChristmas into the haunted
mansion.
I don't remember when thathappened, but it is fun to see.
Kate Bridal (01:29):
So cool.
Yeah, I saw it at the ElCapitaine.
They played it while I wasliving in LA and they had a
bunch of the props and theminis.
You know how the El Capitainealways does that.
Um, for those who don't know,it's a theater in Hollywood, and
they uh when they play movies,they usually have stuff from the
movies there, and so it wasreally cool.
They had like the curly hilland you know the little
figurines and everything.
And I met Chris Sarandon atEmerald City Comic-Con many
(01:53):
years ago, and he called mepretty, and I was like Jack
Skellington said I was pretty,and so my my childhood crush
really came back up hard.
Josh Gilliland (02:03):
You know, some people like clemation, and
that's cool.
So we're stop motion, so yes,creeps, yeah, good stuff, good
stuff.
Well, let's talk about the manylegal issues in this fictional
town that's focused on Halloweenyear-round.
Uh, I know there are a lot offolks who would like to do that,
that Halloween's their thing,or there are folks who are like
(02:24):
Christmas is their thing.
Kate Bridal (02:26):
Yep.
Josh Gilliland (02:27):
Um but let's get into the issue with Sally and
Dr.
Finkelstein.
Or is it Stein?
The doctor created Sally.
Is the doctor falselyimprisoning uh Sally?
And as the legal standard inCalifornia is under California
Penal Code Section 236, falseimprisonment is the unlawful
(02:52):
violation of the personalliberty of another.
Kate, what are your thoughts?
Kate Bridal (02:59):
Well, I think as we do frequently at the Legal
Geeks, we have to think aboutthe definition of personhood for
one thing, right?
Like, is Sally a person?
Does she count?
I mean, obviously, I think sheis.
She has a consciousness, uh,and she's she seems to be a
person.
And I I mean, obviously, inthis little world of Halloween
town, there probably would besome different legal standards.
(03:23):
But I mean, she's not even madeof flesh, is she?
She's like a she's like cottonand a doll.
Josh Gilliland (03:31):
And full of leaves.
Yeah, that does make itcomplicated and weird because
the law is not designed for uhartificial intelligence of that
nature.
Uh but I will go with let's sayshe's a person because she acts
like a person, she meets thetest of she's aware of who she
(03:54):
is, she has aspirations, goals,feelings, and shows the
self-awareness that I thinkwould qualify as a person, plus
communicates in a language.
So, like this is yeah, beforewe start giving Orca and dogs,
you know, personhood, likethey're those are animals, it's
(04:17):
a different category.
Kate Bridal (04:19):
She's more in line with a person, and she does have
a human brain, I believe,because later when you see him
building his new one, he isputting a human, squishy brain
in her head, and then it snapson his lips.
Josh Gilliland (04:34):
Yeah, it's like half of his.
Kate Bridal (04:35):
So which right, that's what he does with her.
So maybe but I assume maybeSally then also has a human
brain in her.
Josh Gilliland (04:42):
So there is a narcissistic quality when you
decide I have to make a lady formyself, it's narcissism, it's
my fair lady, which also datesback to you know Greek you know,
mythology as well of you cannotcreate someone to love you.
(05:02):
That's not how love works.
Kate Bridal (05:05):
Gosh, the male loneliness epidemic, what are we
gonna do?
Josh Gilliland (05:09):
Well, it is real, but that's not the
solution to learning how tointeract with other people and
participate in the rest ofsociety.
You can't are there a problemwith guys feeling isolated, yes.
Is the solution to play madscientist and make ladies?
No.
No, you need to learn how toparticipate in society and be of
(05:32):
service to others and actuallycare about where you live.
So don't just heck no, do notdo that.
Kate Bridal (05:41):
Well, in that case, yes, I definitely think there's
there's some false imprisonmentgoing on because she does not
want to be there.
She escapes frequently and hebrings her back by force.
Josh Gilliland (05:51):
Well, from some case law, in order to constitute
a case of false imprisonment,it is essential that there be
some restraint of that person,but it's not necessarily that
there be uh confinement in ajail or prison, any excess of
force or express or impliedthreat of force by which, in
fact, the other person isdeprived of their liberty or is
(06:12):
compelled to remain where hedoes not wish to remain or where
they do not wish to go is falseimprisonment.
Yeah, I think I think we checkthe boxes here uh that we have
false imprisonment going on.
Kate Bridal (06:30):
Yeah, because at the one point he drag he's
trying to drag her back, and shetakes her hand off to get away
from him.
Um her arm, I can't remember,but he's physically he is
physically trying to drag herback, and she doesn't want to
go.
Josh Gilliland (06:42):
Are you familiar with the Greek myth of
Pygmalion?
Kate Bridal (06:45):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's what my fair ladyis based off of, right?
Josh Gilliland (06:48):
Yes, yes, it is, and also pretty woman.
Kate Bridal (06:50):
Yeah.
Josh Gilliland (06:52):
Let's keep going with some of the other issues
that we have.
Uh that Jack's lament goes on along walk and ends up stumbling
into Christmas town.
There's a grove of trees.
We see the other holidaysdepicted.
He opens the door to go toChristmas town, but doesn't go
(07:14):
in.
But uh he's like pulled in by avortex.
Kate Bridal (07:19):
Right.
Josh Gilliland (07:20):
And then he sees it and there's the musical
number.
He dresses as a snowman, he'slooking in windows.
Kate, do you think he'strespassing?
Kate Bridal (07:30):
Some of it, definitely.
Because isn't he in the kid'sroom at the one point when he's
talking uh he's when he'ssinging about their sugar plums,
and the kid is like asleep at abunk bed and he's in there.
He goes in the house and hecreeps around.
Josh Gilliland (07:43):
Yeah, that that that's not good.
I know he's looking throughwindows.
Kate Bridal (07:47):
For sure, yes, he does that.
And the snowman, I can'tremember if it's like in a
public e area, like a park, orif it seems to be in someone's
yard.
Josh Gilliland (07:56):
I I think it's well, it's outside of buildings
and on the sidewalk, or is itright in front of a house or
building?
Yeah, like those are toughissues uh that that you're
dealing with on whether or notthat's trespassing.
Kate Bridal (08:10):
Right, because what what is what is our definition?
We're Californiaing again.
Uh yeah, a land undercultivation or enclosed by a
fence belonging to or occupiedby another, uh, if you willfully
enter upon with that landwithout permission of the
landowner or an agent, you'retrespassing.
Um, or if you're violatingsigns about trespassing, but
(08:34):
that doesn't seem to be the casehere.
But I definitely think, yeah,he's going, he is definitely
going into people's he goes intoone for sure.
One house.
I'm pretty positive.
Josh Gilliland (08:45):
Yeah, it's we're dealing with uh one of the
other uh cases getting intothis, and this is from a Ralph's
grocery store, uh, the juryconsultants, trespasses and
unlawful interference with propuh with possession of property.
The elements of trespass arethe plaintiff's ownership or
control of the property, thedefendant's intentional,
(09:06):
reckless, or negligent entryinto the property, lack of
permission for the entry or actsin excess of permission for
harm.
And five, the depot defendant'sconduct was a substantial
factor in causing the harm, andthat's from Kelly.
Kate Bridal (09:22):
Well, the harm element that is interesting.
I was I was thinking about thatearlier because that does he
cause harm?
I don't know.
Like he the kid wakes up and hedoesn't see him in there, he
just kind of has a sense likesomeone's in my room.
Josh Gilliland (09:35):
But the trespass that completes with theft, and
because when he and we'll talkabout this with the next when he
goes back to Halloween town,he's in a snowmobile of loaded
up loaded up, so it's like hetook the snowmobile and all the
swag that he grabbed.
Kate Bridal (09:53):
Who knows where he got it?
Because like it's Christmastown, so who knows if there
aren't just presents fallingfrom the sky or but it does seem
to be that he does that no noneof them know he's there because
you could kind of assume, like,oh, maybe he eventually did
make himself known, and theywere all like, Great, here's
some stuff, but I doubt that hecould get away with doing that.
So I don't think that that'sthe case.
I think you're right, and he hetakes it.
Josh Gilliland (10:16):
That it's heavily implied.
I mean, would the folks atChristmas town welcome a
skeleton-looking dude who'slike, hey everybody, and you
know, yeah, he creeps around thewhole song, so it certainly
doesn't seem like he has anyintention of revealing himself
to them.
Kate Bridal (10:32):
No, because again, he's taking a snowmobile is a
bold move, that's loud.
Josh Gilliland (10:37):
And he's in a place completely alien, uh,
right to what he knows.
It's like absolutely no one'sdead.
And I mean, I won't bring him asong because that's weird and I
can't sing, and I don't knowall the lyrics.
So again, a lot of negatives.
But you know, again, he's doingthe what's this, what's this
exploring.
It's one thing to be in thepublic square because it's a
(10:59):
public, you know, like wherethere's like a right to be, and
he's well, it's not like there'sa sign on Christmas Town that
says no, no entry, ortrespassers will be prosecuted.
Like, that's not a thing.
When you're creeping aroundwindows and looking in, like
it's like we're we're nowgetting into invasion of privacy
on top of trespass.
(11:19):
It's just it's like it's a it'sa beautiful musical number that
people love singing along to.
Like, that's a fact.
There are cons where thathappens, and people are having
the best time with others wholove this movie, singing their
hearts out.
That stuff is cool.
But lawyers being the buzzkillsas we are, we looked at it.
(11:45):
It's like uh uh-uh, you're onthe naughty list, dude.
Kate Bridal (11:49):
Like you don't and intent.
Oh, sorry, sorry, go ahead.
Josh Gilliland (11:52):
No, no, please.
Kate Bridal (11:53):
I was just gonna say there isn't really seen
because there is there isn'tthat intent element because he
doesn't mean to be, you know,he's not intending to.
I don't even know if herealizes that he's violating
anybody's privacy.
Although, you know what,Halloween town has houses.
I think he knows that goinginto somebody's house is not
cool, but he's so caught up thathe's not intending any harm,
(12:14):
but that's not really a part ofan element of the statute,
right?
Because it's also negligent,and yeah, I think we could argue
that's what he's doing, is he'sbeing reckless or negligent in
his trespass.
Josh Gilliland (12:26):
It's like your honor, I broke into song, I was
just caught up in the momentbefore I broke into the house.
Kate Bridal (12:32):
I broke into song, and that makes it fine.
Josh Gilliland (12:36):
It's like, well, okay, he said he was sorry.
It's like, I don't think hedoes.
Like, I don't think there's anacknowledgement until the end of
whoops, I made a bad lifechoice here, which brings us to
the lesson.
Yeah, yeah, it's God forbidstories have lessons.
Kate Bridal (12:55):
Don't appropriate other people's cultures.
That's the kind of nightmarebefore Christmas.
Josh Gilliland (13:01):
I I don't know if that's the exact intent.
I mean, because it's supposedto be welcoming, like, welcome
everybody, like we're sharing,like there's and they do at the
end, they get along, but don'ttake someone else's thing, you
can enjoy it.
I remember the re positivereaction to this movie when it
came out, uh, seeing folkshaving fun.
(13:25):
And I remember leaving thetheater with my mom and brother
and thinking, what holiday am Iin the mood now for?
Because I felt very confused.
And I don't remember uh this isa notable fact, if it came out
around Halloween or if it camearound time of year, yeah, where
it came out around Christmastime, because it's one of those
(13:47):
movies that can be both.
Kate Bridal (13:49):
Maybe they put it out in between.
Josh Gilliland (13:51):
Yeah, which again, that too would work.
Again, money finds a way.
So if you release it beforeHalloween, you could have a long
theatrical run.
Kate Bridal (14:01):
It was Halloween, it was October 29th, 1993.
Josh Gilliland (14:04):
Okay, that makes sense.
Yep.
So yeah, I worked at a movie.
Kate Bridal (14:08):
That's what it would have been my instinct,
yeah.
Josh Gilliland (14:10):
I worked at a movie theater during that time
period.
Fond memories of this film.
I then went to law school andbecame a buzzkill.
Jack's theft from HalloweenTown or Christmas Town.
We do see him roll up with asnowmobile with items from
Christmas Town.
So let's talk.
There's theft, there's larceny,there's a few things that could
(14:31):
be going on here.
So just for the sake of whatthe law says about theft, every
person who enters any house,room, apartment, tenement, shop,
warehouse, store, bill, bar,and stable, outhouse, or other
building, tent, vessel, floatinghome, wow, railroad car, locked
(14:53):
or sealed cargo container,whether or not mounted on a
vehicle, trailer coach, anyhouse, car defined in the
vehicle code, and an inhabitedcamper.
Kate Bridal (15:06):
Aircraft, too.
Wow.
They may have had all of theall of their bases on this one.
Josh Gilliland (15:11):
Basically, anything that has a locked door
where people can be could beseen as larceny/slash theft.
Uh, entering you can get intoan intent to commit grand theft,
felony, burglary.
So again, it's it's a broaddefinition.
And the issue is is itinhabited?
You know, that doesn't mean itneeds to be used as a dwelling
(15:32):
purpose at the time of theincident.
Kate Bridal (15:34):
I think this depends.
I think this depends becausethey he has to have the intent
to commit the theft when he goesin.
And do we think he we don't seethis portion, we don't see
where he's getting stuff.
Do you think he breaks insomewhere and because he sees
the presence and is like, that'sI want that?
Or do you think he findshimself in a place and is
looking around and is like, thenhe decides to take stuff?
(15:57):
Maybe he is in a barn or awarehouse and he sees the
snowmobile full of presents andis just like, I'm gonna ride
that home and show people what'sgoing on.
But he didn't necessarily meanto do that when he initially
entered.
Josh Gilliland (16:10):
So neither of us do criminal law, but that's too
little.
Kate Bridal (16:15):
I work for the public defender's office.
That's why I'm taking thedefense side.
Josh Gilliland (16:19):
Naturally, it's and you're advocating well,
okay.
That's a plausible argument,but I think as soon as you get
into a motor vehicle beingtaken, I do think I don't see a
good auto petty larceny at thatpoint of like, oh, look, some
packages.
We don't like people who stealpackages from front porches.
(16:40):
I I see more intent here, eventhough we don't see him breaking
you know into places, butsomeone has to miss that
snowmobile.
Enough stuff taken that peoplewould notice, unless he's spread
it out, it's like one item perhousehold, but then he's entered
multiple households, and Ithink the issue is Yeah, and
(17:00):
he's just done it.
Kate Bridal (17:02):
And by the by the second or third, he's obviously
going in there to take stuff, sothen you do have it.
Yeah, it's it's like this isnow pillaging, and it's I
actually have a funny storyabout a package getting stolen
off my doorstep once because Iit's the only time it's ever
happened to me, they were theleast fortunate thieves in the
world because all that was in itwas a box of chalk and a copy
(17:25):
of The Sound and the Fury.
And I was like, have fun withsome real dense reading material
and a lot of chalk.
Josh Gilliland (17:35):
I have not.
Kate Bridal (17:36):
They probably thought it was like an iPhone or
something.
They must have been sodisappointed.
Josh Gilliland (17:41):
Wow.
Again, crime doesn't pay.
Kate Bridal (17:44):
There you go.
You just get Faulkner, that'sall you get.
Josh Gilliland (17:47):
Wow.
I want an essay.
That's your punishment.
Kate Bridal (17:53):
Um 10,000 words on this absolutely borderline
incomprehensible book, please.
Josh Gilliland (18:02):
Let's talk about the entire town, like, decides
to get in on this.
And so there's so you got thetown getting into it, and then
Sally drugging the doctor so shecould get out.
Let's take Sally drugging thedoctor with and having frog's
breath and all that good stuffto incapacitate him so she could
(18:23):
get out, and then we can getinto whether or not a town can
has a can't have a conspiracy.
Kate Bridal (18:28):
Yeah.
Josh Gilliland (18:31):
What are your thoughts on a form of
self-defense to kidnapping thatcan can include lethal force for
escaping?
What are your thoughts on Sallydrugging the doctor in order to
get out?
Kate Bridal (18:48):
Yeah, so I guess I guess because we define, we said
false imprisonment for sure.
Do we think she's kidnapped?
Is maybe a slightly differentstandard.
If you're created somewhere andthen you are forced to remain
in that place, have you beenkidnapped?
Josh Gilliland (19:09):
So if you are born, for example, in your home
and then your parents never letyou leave your home, is it it's
definitely, I think, more on thefalse imprisonment side than
kidnapping, unless they take theindividual somewhere.
Like there's if you listen tolast podcast on the left, there
was a very creepy German dudewho built a bunker and like Oh,
(19:32):
yes, familiar.
Took the daughter down thereand kept her there for years.
Kate Bridal (19:37):
Yep.
And then she had multiple kidsdown there through him.
Josh Gilliland (19:42):
Horrific on so many levels.
I think that's kidnapping.
Because it moved her from oneplace into a place she didn't
want to be.
That's because there can be afine line between the two.
Kate Bridal (19:55):
But Sally seems pretty free to wander through
the whole house, and she'sallowed to go outside at times.
She's not just trapped in thetower all the time.
Josh Gilliland (20:04):
And she does go back.
Kate Bridal (20:05):
She does go back.
She in that incident, yeah, shedoes.
She just wants to go see Jack.
Josh Gilliland (20:13):
Yeah.
Kate Bridal (20:15):
She's got a crush and she's gonna poison her dad
to get out of the house to gosee her boyfriend.
That's all.
Josh Gilliland (20:21):
And but they're not established yet.
That part's not important.
Kate Bridal (20:23):
No, no.
Josh Gilliland (20:24):
But the drugging dad to get out of the house.
Kate Bridal (20:28):
I don't know.
I don't know if she's got ithere.
I I think that I mean, I loveSally.
I want to defend her, but Idon't know.
This would be a tough one.
Josh Gilliland (20:38):
Yeah, I think.
Kate Bridal (20:39):
I think you could say she was like under some
manner of duress.
But then, like you said, allshe does is she like brings Jack
wine and then she goes home.
Josh Gilliland (20:49):
It's not like she escapes.
Kate Bridal (20:51):
Right.
Josh Gilliland (20:52):
It'd be a very different situation if she
escapes the dude tormenting her.
Kate Bridal (20:58):
Yeah.
Josh Gilliland (20:59):
But she goes back and that continues to be
home.
Kate Bridal (21:03):
And she's obviously thinking of it.
Well, she does it regularly andcomes back.
That's just her way of doingwhat she wants of like sneaking
out of the house to do what shewants.
Josh Gilliland (21:14):
Yeah, and it's again, how old is she?
I mean, that's where are theright that's where like the
issue of Frankenstein comes in.
It's like it looks like a35-year-old dude made up of
other dudes.
Kate Bridal (21:31):
Is he but he's only been alive for a year?
Josh Gilliland (21:35):
Yeah, but the prior brain was like in in its
40s.
Kate Bridal (21:40):
I mean, like it gets really he learns fast and
he learns to read, and yeah, Idon't know.
Josh Gilliland (21:45):
It gets super complicated when because that's
not normal, like that that's notwhat we experience.
Kate Bridal (21:52):
And she uh she does present as pretty much an
adult, kind of a teenage girl.
Yeah, like if if there was agirl who her dad was just
really, really strict and shewas continually knocking him out
with drugs to leave the house.
I don't I don't know that thatgirl would have uh much of an
argument, to be honest.
Josh Gilliland (22:11):
Yeah, but if it's knocked the dad out and
then goes to child protectiveservices, right?
That's different.
Kate Bridal (22:17):
Right.
Josh Gilliland (22:18):
That that's a very in like that's not what's
happening here.
Kate Bridal (22:21):
She's not looking for I don't know, I don't know
all the rules around this, butyou could maybe get into like uh
an argument of like continued,you know, kind of like they do
with domestic abuse cases thatsometimes end in tragedy murder.
Uh, you know, that there is acontinuous kind of state of
(22:43):
duress, and everyone always, ofcourse, in this case is like,
well, why didn't you just leave?
And it's like, because you'rean idiot.
Um, but you know, becausethings are complicated and
people get brainwashed, and youknow, especially when it's a
like parent-child relationship,it's very complicated.
So, you know, maybe there'ssomething there that you could
defend her that she'scontinuously kind of under this
(23:05):
stress.
Josh Gilliland (23:06):
Agreed.
I I don't like the victimblaming.
Yeah, like you can't, ifsomebody's in a bad situation
where it's whether it's like ahorrific family situation or a
nation, like you can't just beflippant about oh, there were
enough Germans that didn't likethe Nazis.
Why didn't they stop it?
(23:28):
Moving forward.
Can a town have a conspiracy?
For those who don't know therules with conspiracy, it's it's
an agreement by at least twopeople to engage in a criminal
enterprise.
Jack recruiting people to goafter Christmas town sounds like
a conspiracy, but then electedofficials get involved and it
(23:50):
turns into a matter of townpolicy.
And as we learned in our Jawsmock trial, public officials
deciding on a course of actionis very difficult to prosecute
or to sue them.
Uh unless they're actually likeplanning a murder.
Kate Bridal (24:13):
Well, they're planning a kidnapping.
Josh Gilliland (24:15):
They're planning a kidnapping.
Kate Bridal (24:16):
I am an entity who is known to murder pretty
heavily, I would say he has areputation, Oogie Boogie.
Yeah, he's got a whole littlemurder casino down there.
Josh Gilliland (24:28):
But Jack also says he doesn't want Oogie
Boogie involved.
Kate Bridal (24:32):
That is true, that is true, but the officials get
him involved, right?
Josh Gilliland (24:37):
Uh it's the it's it lockstok barrel, the three
kids.
Yeah, yeah.
Kate Bridal (24:40):
And so who sends them out?
Josh Gilliland (24:43):
Jack sends them out to kidnap the Santa Claus.
Kate Bridal (24:47):
Oh, right, but with the instruction that they not
get Oogie Boogie involved,that's right.
Josh Gilliland (24:51):
What they do goes against Jack's
instructions.
Like they they take the sidequest with a separate
conspiracy.
Kate Bridal (24:59):
But after Jack dismisses Santa Claus, because
they bring him to Jack first tofulfill their obligation.
Josh Gilliland (25:09):
And then he ends up with a boogie.
Yeah, this gets weird becausefrom a policy standpoint,
there's not often you see a townengaged in a criminal
enterprise.
And right if it is, it's like awar crime.
Kate Bridal (25:25):
But they are intending to kidnap him.
Josh Gilliland (25:27):
So But it's like we're taking over Christmas, is
the issue.
Kate Bridal (25:34):
But you know that the kidnapping is an essential
element of that part, so youknow it's gonna be happening.
I keep thinking of like likemafia cases, like conspiracy
cases that I was taught, youknow.
If you have a town that's runby the mob, I don't know.
Josh Gilliland (25:52):
Yeah, it's it's a very weird mix of what's
happening here.
I think it's I think there is agood criminal conspiracy at
issue.
The fact it turns into a townpolicy is just weird.
Kate Bridal (26:07):
Uh yeah, but I don't think that stops it from
being a criminal conspiracy inthis case, because it is very
blatantly a crime.
Josh Gilliland (26:16):
Listening to the last podcast on the left, which
is doing a series on Himmlerright now, you're like
concentration camps had supporttowns.
Right.
You know, it created business,and the the town existed to
survive the camp, uh, sustainthe camp.
There are other examples oflike an industry builds up and
(26:36):
there's a support town for it.
You could are prosecute, like,okay, you're involved in a war
crime.
We're going after everybody.
Kate Bridal (26:45):
Prime example is a good, is a good one because I'm
trying to think of anotherinstance where it's like because
Christmas Town, they almostseem to be more like I know
they're called towns, but theyseem more like countries,
really, because they're sodifferent and hard to get to
from each other.
I guess not that hard if youjust walk into the woods.
I guess no one's doing that.
Josh Gilliland (27:05):
It's like a nation state, like a city state.
Kate Bridal (27:08):
And Santa's like their leader, it's kind of like
they're kidnapping the presidentof another country.
Josh Gilliland (27:13):
Yeah, I again we're dealing with fables and
holidays, and so it's like thisis beyond the keen of mortal men
that's at play here.
But again, it is wacky andweird.
But I think there's an argumentthat you could prosecute
everyone that participates.
Sally wasn't the only one noton board.
I think you know, like everyoneelse is a collaborator that
(27:36):
could up for prosecution, butthen again, it's a Christmas
miracle for them not to all endup before the hag because there
are other issues that takeplace.
So a lot of them.
It's a long, long list.
All right, we it's falseimpersonation.
Jack pretends to be Santa, andwhile he's got the outfit and
he's doing what Santa does,people immediately go like that.
(27:58):
That's not Santa.
What's your thoughts on it?
Is there false impersonationtaking place here?
Kate Bridal (28:04):
Yeah, I think I'm latching onto the same thing you
are, which is that it has to bea credible impersonation.
And I don't think that it is.
He's got the outfit, I guess,but he is clearly an extremely
skinny, much taller skeletonman.
He doesn't have like a maskthat looks like Santa.
He has like the beard, but he'suh he's obviously not Santa
(28:27):
Claus.
And as you said, everyonefigures it out pretty quick.
Josh Gilliland (28:30):
Yeah, because he's not he's doing his own spin
on the delivering toys, becausethe toys that have been made by
Halloween Town for Christmasaren't normal Christmas toys.
Raises the issue (28:43):
are those defective toys or are they just
inherently dangerous toys doingexactly what they're supposed to
be doing?
Kate Bridal (28:52):
I would say inherently dangerous.
They know it, they know whatthey want them to be.
They're doing exactly what theHalloween Town people would want
their toys to do and what theirtoys do.
So they, you know, they're notdefective, they didn't make it
and it's acting wrong.
They are just inherentlydangerous, definitely, I think
on that one.
Josh Gilliland (29:11):
Yeah, I agree with that.
Because they again, there's acultural difference here of
like, what isn't this?
I thought this would be fun.
Kate Bridal (29:18):
Right.
Yeah.
If a firework goes off in yourface, it's not necessarily
defective.
Josh Gilliland (29:24):
But no, you just that no, you should not have
done that.
And but the kids don't who aregetting this don't know that.
They're looking at this goinglike, no, it's like there's the
snake eating the Christmas tree,there's all kinds of my
favorite one.
Kate Bridal (29:38):
That kid's face just screaming is the best.
Josh Gilliland (29:43):
Yeah, it's very memorable.
Kate Bridal (29:44):
So again, the ones getting chased down the hallway
by the Jack in the Box,terrifying.
Josh Gilliland (29:49):
Yes.
Which raises the issue is theirnegligent infliction of
emotional distress.
I I have my answer.
What do you think?
Kate Bridal (29:58):
Yeah, I think so.
Josh Gilliland (30:00):
Yeah, slam dunk.
Like, there's no question.
Kate Bridal (30:02):
Like, uh definitely negligent, definitely not
intentional.
They're trying to bring joy.
Josh Gilliland (30:07):
But yeah, what you guys made a mistake.
This is wrong, and you shouldnot be making toys that hurt
people.
But thinking back to their songat the beginning, they're not
mean.
They're they think like havingscary things is fun, just as
people like scary movies.
Like it's exactly just becauseyou know, again, getting into
(30:29):
like satanic panic type typemindset, just because you like a
scary movie or video game doesnot mean you're gonna go out and
start stealing Ferraris andblowing up buildings.
Kate Bridal (30:41):
No, that's not no, no, no, and the stats prove
that.
Josh Gilliland (30:48):
So we have kidnapped.
Let's talk about Santa's.
There's kidnapping of Santa,there's torture of Santa, and
there's attempted murder ofSanta.
This shouldn't take long, butyeah, Santa's kidnapped.
Put in a bag.
Kate Bridal (30:59):
They have a whole song about it.
It's called Kidnap the SantaClaus.
Josh Gilliland (31:03):
Yeah, we're gonna call that a party
admission.
Kate Bridal (31:07):
Yes, I would say so.
Josh Gilliland (31:08):
I mean, they they use the word kidnap in the
song, they know exactly whatthey were doing.
Kate Bridal (31:14):
Kidnap some random guy.
Kidnap this particular humanbeing, yeah, or whatever he is,
elf.
Josh Gilliland (31:20):
When Santa ends up in Oogie Boogie's lair, like
he's strapped to a table.
And there's like the spinningwheel, and there's like rolling
dice, there's all kinds of likeweird games of chance happening.
Yeah, well, I we we havetorture.
Like we yeah, for sure.
Sally comes in trying to savethe day, also gets kidnapped
(31:42):
because she's tied up.
Yeah, nice having removablehands and legs, but that that
doesn't go as planned.
And then Jack comes in and weget into attempted murder, and
like you raised the attemptedmurder issue.
Can you explore it for us?
Kate Bridal (31:57):
Yes, so I think really the most compelling case
of attempted murder is againstSally because he's jacking that
table up and trying to pour herinto the lava.
And the only defense I thoughtof that he might have would be
like, well, I didn't have theintent, necessarily the intent
to kill her because I'm rollingthe dice to see if the table is
gonna go far enough to dump herin.
But then he rolls snake eyesand he hits the table so that he
(32:20):
gets 11, uh, so he can dump herinto the lava.
So I think there's it'd be atough one to not say that he was
attempting to murder her andshe only survives because Jack
jumps in and saves her.
And then he is launchingeverything he has at Jack and
having the little robots withthe guns shoot at him and all
sorts of stuff.
And he does say uh veryblatantly, you know, I thought I
(32:45):
heard you were dead, you mustbe double dead, and then he hits
the button and gets him going.
So he's trying to obviously tryto kill him.
Yeah, if you can kill askeleton, which apparently you
can't in this universe.
Josh Gilliland (32:55):
So it's defense of others that Jack is doing
because there's alife-threatening situation posed
to Sally and Santa, and he goesin to save the day and does
because that's that's whatheroes do, and he also realizes
whoops, which gets into thepublic response before part of
Jack's redemption arc of goingin like NORAD scrambles, right?
(33:20):
You know, anti-aircraft gunsare going off to shoot down the
false Santa Claus.
A country has its right todefend its airspace, especially
from children who are gettingharmed.
So, yeah, I would sayeverything that that's a lawful
use of military force to uhshoot down an active threat to
the country.
Kate Bridal (33:41):
Yes, yeah.
Well, and that's not even I wasabout to say it's interesting
Christmas town has all that, butI forgot.
That's like on earth, that'slike normal time.
They're going, they're visitingthe US and other countries and
doing that, and they're they'rethe ones shooting them down.
I had a weird sign.
I did not re-watch this becauseI was like, I know this
forwards and backwards, which Istill do pretty much, but there
are a couple of nuances that Iwas like, oh right, delivering
(34:04):
presents in Christmas town.
He's delivering presents onearth, yeah.
Josh Gilliland (34:07):
Yeah, which is you know the portal connection
between the two is not fullydescribed, nor does it be.
No, it is not um, and the otherplaces are teased, and we don't
go there because Thanksgivingcould be super tasty.
Kate Bridal (34:19):
Or super racist.
Josh Gilliland (34:21):
Oh, no, I'm gonna.
I just want lots of turkey,gravy, and mashed potatoes and
stuff.
And I think that's probablywhat it is.
That'd be nice.
Kate Bridal (34:32):
Anyway, we oh, I do also have one more thought on
because I hadn't even thoughtabout the fact that Jack then
does kill Oogie Boogie.
But Oogie Boogie is kind ofhe's like a collective
consciousness, it seems, of abunch of little bugs.
And so Jack dumps most of themin the lava by pulling on his
string, but then Santa crushesthe last one.
So is Santa gonna have todefend himself against for
(34:56):
killing a bug?
Killing Oogie Boogie, though.
It's his consciousness, right?
He was a being made of all ofthese smaller beings.
Has he as are we all really?
Josh Gilliland (35:08):
Yeah, has Santa technically escaped at that
point and the danger over?
Kate Bridal (35:13):
Or there's one bug left crawling at him, and he
just steps on it, and then hegets very huffy and in control.
So I don't know that he wasfeeling threatened at that
point.
Josh Gilliland (35:22):
Yeah, um, maybe it's a warning.
Kate Bridal (35:28):
Shots fired by Santa.
Josh Gilliland (35:30):
Yeah, it's like and thinking of the South Park
where red slay down.
Kate Bridal (35:36):
Right.
Yeah.
Josh Gilliland (35:37):
Where Santa says, I just couldn't do it.
I couldn't let him live.
Is that what's happening here?
So I don't know.
Kate Bridal (35:45):
He just seems kind of pissed off, honestly.
He's just like, but I I don'tyou can't blame him.
He was just kidnapped by theman.
I do still think it's you know,he Jack was doing it in defense
of others, and who knows ifthat one little bug could have
crawled off at a reformed OogieBoogie somewhere.
Josh Gilliland (36:00):
So Santa's had a needs like quality spa time
because like I'm not quite sureif it's been a couple days that
he was kidnapped and tortured.
You could argue that Santawasn't hankery or escaping being
kidnapped and attempted murder,would might have been under
duress and not thinking clearlywhen he crushed a bug.
Kate Bridal (36:21):
He's tied up on it.
Can you imagine lawyers willreally relate to this?
What if you had a courtdeadline or a trial and you were
kidnapped and tied up and youknew that it was continuing
without you with someonecompletely incompetent standing
in for you?
That's like the ultimate stressdream for most people, but
especially I feel likeattorneys, especially.
(36:42):
It's your one, it's yourbusiest night of the year, and
this dude is keeping you fromdoing your job.
Justifiable homicide rightthere.
Josh Gilliland (36:52):
Crush the bug.
Yeah, it's uh no jury's goingto convict.
Because it's like when you whenyou think about planet Earth is
in turmoil right now because ofall of the horrific gifts that
were dropped on children thatarguably caused harm.
Kate Bridal (37:10):
I thought you were talking, I thought you were
talking about real life, andeven up until you were like,
because of all the horrificgifts that have been dropped.
I was like, uh-huh.
Yeah, we are, we are inturmoil.
I was like following along withyou, and then you said
children, and I was like, oh,he's talking about the movie.
That's the state of the worldright now.
Josh Gilliland (37:30):
Yeah, everyone's a little freaked out, and
everybody needs a hug.
It's like, yeah, again, roughtime for everybody.
So uh everybody's stressed,everybody's really stressed,
right?
With that slip.
Again, there's forgiveness,like redemption.
Uh, there are Christmasmiracles.
Because Santa's like, of courseI can do this, goes out and
does it because that's whatSanta does.
(37:51):
And there's a detente, andeveryone plays nice at the end.
Kate Bridal (37:55):
So hooray.
Josh Gilliland (37:56):
Yeah, it's like again, Christmas miracle, which
is like again the moral of thestory that we're all supposed to
get along and not be weirdabout it.
Kate Bridal (38:06):
Yeah, I want a t-shirt that says get along and
don't be weird about it.
That's the perfect thing I wantright now in my life.
Get along and don't be weirdabout it.
Josh Gilliland (38:15):
Yeah, again, it's the Bill and Ted Mantra.
Uh yeah, yeah.
It's uh just again, Bill andTed rules of be excellent to
each other.
Kate Bridal (38:27):
Exactly.
We all need to everybody needsto watch Bill and Ted.
That is healing.
Josh Gilliland (38:34):
It is.
Go go have the Ziggy Piggy,like it's just go bowling, just
learn to be cool to each other.
Yeah, be groovy.
That said, this is a groovyfilm.
No, the soundtrack, I I don'tremember what anniversary it
was, but they you know, it'slike Patrick Stewart reading the
(38:55):
story.
Kate Bridal (38:55):
I am oh yes, and Fiona Apple does the Sally's
song.
Yeah, I have that.
It's beautiful.
Josh Gilliland (39:02):
Yeah, very nicely done.
But again, this is a again,it's a holiday classic spanning
two holidays.
Like Disney has it up for aquarter, so it goes up in
September for the in the hauntedmansions, like they'll keep it
through Christmas.
Kate Bridal (39:19):
Yeah, well, that was Christmas is encroaching on
Halloween now.
I don't appreciate it.
Like, there's already Christmasstuff.
I'm like, it's not at leastwait for Halloween to be done.
We used to wait forThanksgiving to be done.
Do you remember those days?
Josh Gilliland (39:30):
I prefer those days because Thanksgiving's not
a speed bump.
So lame that I'm a mindset thatyou know Thanksgiving is truly
established by President Lincolnduring the Civil War, because
his two proclamations are verymeaningful about people you know
(39:52):
giving stock in what they have.
Uh the country was in horrificturmoil with what was going on
with the bloodiest conflict inour history, by way of
comparison.
If we were to build a Vietnammemorial style uh memorial for
those killed in the Civil War,it would be the size of 11
(40:15):
Nimitz class aircraft carriersstem to stern.
11 of them.
Kate Bridal (40:23):
If you've never seen an aircraft carrier, that
is massive.
One is massive.
Josh Gilliland (40:28):
Yeah.
Now imagine being 11 long.
Like that's the number ofpeople who died.
And and with that, pressure andstress, and how Lincoln looks
like he ages 20 years and fouris you know the reminder of like
what Thanksgiving's about.
So Thanksgiving is not a speedbump between Halloween to
Christmas, each are valid indifferent ways.
(40:52):
Halloween's a ton of fun.
Kids are dressing up, havingthe time of their lives.
Go and trick-or-treat it.
Like that's to me, that's whatit's about.
It's fun having candy andwaiting and you know, seeing
folks and celebrating it.
There are people who doparties, there are people who
like dressing up.
There are lots of ways tocelebrate it.
Thanksgiving, great time withfamily, friends.
(41:14):
I happen to love turkey.
Like it's a really fun, youknow, it's turkey and mashed
potatoes and gravy.
That's that's again, rock on.
I suddenly want it.
And then you get to Christmas.
I also like turkey atChristmas, but I'm funny that
way.
Uh, all of those things areimportant, and it's it's like
(41:35):
Thanksgiving's not a speed bump.
Kate Bridal (41:36):
It's a moment to check in with gratitude and
whatnot, and you know, all thoseall those good things to it's
getting harder every year thelast couple of years, but you
know, we're gonna find things ofsomething.
Josh Gilliland (41:51):
Think about what those felt during the Civil
War.
Right.
All of that aside, like, don'tlose fate is, I think, the
important lesson of don't givein, don't surrender, look ahead.
And uh, because again, thecountry's been through stressful
things before.
Luckily, that has not includeddangerous toys being dropped off
(42:17):
by a skeleton man dressed toSanta, because who do you sue uh
when that happens?
Kate Bridal (42:22):
So yeah, seriously.
Josh Gilliland (42:25):
That might be an interesting insurance claim.
Kate Bridal (42:28):
Oh, there you go.
Yeah, yeah.
Josh Gilliland (42:30):
Is that an act of that somebody you invite like
odd that we don't recognize youinvited in someone to as part
of a social contract by leavingout cookies and milk?
You were good all year, youwrote a letter, you expected a
nice present, and instead youget something eating the
(42:53):
Christmas tree or chasing youdown the hall.
And the issue is what would ahomeowner's policy cover that
for injuries sustained?
I don't know the answer tothat.
Kate Bridal (43:07):
That is a good question, though.
That's one to explore down theline.
Josh Gilliland (43:11):
Yeah, so that's a yeah, or go get a policy and
see what that actually mightentail because that's that's an
I don't know.
Is it covered?
Step one, step one in readingan insurance policy.
Look at what's covered.
Yeah, step step two of readingthe insurance policy.
What are the exceptions?
Don't skip part one.
(43:33):
Super important.
Do not skip part one.
A lot of people do.
Great.
Kate Bridal (43:39):
So theory, not legal, not technically legal
advice.
Josh Gilliland (43:43):
Not technically legal advice.
No, no, like that, but that'show I would approach it.
I'm not saying there are otherswho reasonable minds can differ
and they would figure out someother way.
That's good advice.
So, Kate, you mentioned yourother podcast.
Where can people find yourother work?
Kate Bridal (43:57):
Yes.
Uh, so I do have a podcastcalled Now It's Ruined.
My best friend and I ruineveryday objects, people, events
with dark history or factsabout them.
So we've ruined things likechainsaws, hammocks, gin and
tonics, hello kitty.
Uh, and we are doing aHalloween episode that is coming
out October 22nd uh aboutHalloween candy.
(44:19):
So get ready for that.
Um and uh and that episodeactually I learned that the
first town wide celebration ofHalloween in the United States
was in Anoka, Minnesota.
I'm from Minnesota.
So fun fact for you to take outto your to your friends.
We're like try and get as muchhistory as we can in there, and
it's a lot of fun.
You can find it on any platformat Now It's Ruined.
(44:41):
We are on Patreon, we're onInstagram, and I am on Instagram
and TikTok at Bridal Party ofFive, number of five.
Josh Gilliland (44:47):
So what year was that first Halloween?
Kate Bridal (44:50):
You know, I don't know that off the top of my
head.
I'm editing the episode now,but I don't I'm bad with
numbers, so she might have toldus, and I don't remember that,
but I just remember it was aNoka.
Josh Gilliland (45:00):
It's okay.
I'm cursed by rememberingdates.
Kate Bridal (45:02):
So let's it's oh great, we'd be a good team
because I I'll remembereverything but the numbers in a
fact.
Josh Gilliland (45:09):
No, no, I'm pretty good with dates.
So all right.
With that said, everyone,thanks for listening.
Talking about Halloween is fun,and it because it's spooky
season, and we just did a tickuh kickoff for Thanksgiving and
Christmas, so that that's alittle weird and new.
But everyone, wherever you are,stay safe, stay healthy, and
(45:30):
stay geeky.
Take care.
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