Stories That Need To Be Told: David Alm On Writing and Running

David Alm shares his journey of becoming an award-winning journalist and running as a form of meditation, revealing how his punk rock roots and rebellious spirit shaped both his writing and running.

• Starting with a one-way ticket to NYC and a few thousand dollars at age 24
• Living in the Lower East Side, NYC in the late 90s/eary 00s
• Beginning running on his 23rd birthday after smoking cigarettes for a decade
• Running a 2:49 marathon in only his second race (without even knowing what Boston qualifying meant)
• Writing award-winning features on subjects like Sha'Carri Richardson and Rachael Rapinoe
• Creating the East River 5000 race series as an alternative to commercialized running events
• Developing deep connections with subjects through extended conversations that reveal intimate details
• Finding stories in unexpected places, often dark
• Covering stories of marginalized communities 
• Starting banjo playing in his late 40s and building instruments with his father

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
My guest today, david Alm, is the prolific journalist
behind several features for GQand cover stories for Runner's
World, and he's also a runnerhimself.
Today, we are going to talkabout what goes into his work as
a writer, runner, race directorand even musician.
This is the Lucy BeatrixPodcast.

(00:25):
Welcome, before we get intoyour work as a writer, where are
you from?

Speaker 2 (00:33):
I grew up well.
I was born just outside Chicagoand I grew up on the western
side of Illinois near the Iowaborder, like right on the border
, and I went to college inMinnesota.
Then I moved here in 1999 whenI was 24.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
Cool that.
My next question was when didyou come to New York City?
So you came here right beforeY2K.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, exactly, I moved here I think on November 6
, 1999 and New Year's Eve waslike.
I was here six weeks, sevenweeks, and then went out for a
huge epic new year's evethinking it might be the end of
the world.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
Um, so can you real quickly, because I'm I love New
York City.
I know you're a fan of New YorkCity.
You've obviously lived here along time.
Uh, what was New York like thenversus now?

Speaker 2 (01:18):
so that's a great question.
I moved to New York because Igrew up loving New York movies
like I loved I don't know whichof these you might have seen,
but like Desperately SeekingSusan, classic Madonna movie,
beat Street, classic hip hopmovie set in the Bronx in the
early 1980s.

(01:39):
You know there were like, buteven like, even even grittier
films like Taxi Driver, thatkind of stuff.
The New York I moved to lookeda lot more like that than the
New York of today.

Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yeah, but.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
I moved here kind of like right as it was turning.
You know it's becoming more.
It was becoming cleaner.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
Which neighborhood did you move to?

Speaker 2 (02:00):
I moved to the Lower East Side Cool and I was.
I was down there at a time whenfriends of mine who grew up in
New York would always describeit as like a little further
downtown than anybody wants togo People.
I remember a friend wasvisiting me one time and we were
walking back to my apartmentand she was quite concerned.
Like she was like, are you?
sure this is safe, Like you know, because there was back then,

(02:20):
like Orchard Street reallydidn't have any, it was dark, I
mean it was almost withoutstreetlights and there were just
rats everywhere.
It was a completely differentneighborhood.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
Totally different.
What was your work when youfirst moved to New York?

Speaker 2 (02:34):
I moved here without a job.
I moved here with just a couplethousand dollars in the bank
that my grandmother left me whenshe died.
So a couple thousand dollarsand a dream A couple thousand
dollars and a dream and aone-way ticket, literally like I
bought a one.
I'd only, I've only, I think,ever bought one one-way plane
ticket in my life and that wasto move to New York City,
because I was so committed tomaking it work.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
I love that, that's.
That's the same thing where Icame here, just kind of like
this is just going to be where Ilive and I'll figure out the
rest.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
Precisely so I here.
I was 24 years old and I wantedto be a journalist, you know,
in part because I liked writing,I liked magazines.
I had done an internship inMinneapolis at a magazine and I
just really liked.
I liked the idea of I rememberthinking can?
I don't want to be a lawyer, Idon't want to be a doctor, I

(03:26):
want a life that will be packedwith unpredictable experiences
and I want to constantly learnnew things.
And so journalism seemed like agood path to that end.
So I moved out here becausethis is where the magazines were
and very naively thinking I'lljust get a job at the New Yorker
First job.
And I landed in New York and Icalled I had I had already

(03:51):
somebody that I had worked withat that magazine in Minneapolis.
The publisher knew thepublisher of the New Yorker and
he said I'll send you a meeting,I'll send him a letter, connect
you.
And then I called that guyevery day for like a month and a
half or every couple of daysand I just he never returned the
phone call.
So I finally had to find otherwork.
I ended up fact checking for alittle while at an academic

(04:13):
magazine called Lingua Franca.
Then I got a job working at myfirst full-time job and to this
day my only full-time job thatI've ever had was working for a
magazine called the SiliconAlley Reporter which covered the
dot-com boom and bust.
So at 24, 25, I'm going to allthese dot-com parties and eating
caviar every night, and eatingsushi and surrounded by ice

(04:36):
sculptures, and going to launchparties, because it was like all
this money was just beingthrown at these ridiculous ideas
.
Like people coming up with likeI'm going to offer free feng
shui advice online and then getan investor to pay for this.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
Does that kind of remind you of the startup
culture?
I guess 20 years after that, orI guess like 10 years, when
there was a second wave of whatyou're describing.
I think with the startups andstuff where there was just so
much money thrown into ideas ofcompanies that weren't really.
I describing, I think, likewith like the startups and stuff
, where there was just so muchmoney thrown into ideas of
companies that weren't really Imean, I feel like the dot-com
era, sort of like.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
It was like the prototype of that and it was
just there were so many insanestartups and so I was covering
the startups and I was going totheir parties and they were
burning through cash like youwouldn't believe, Wow.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
But it was an interesting introduction to New
York.
Yeah, because it's almost likeyou move here with a couple
thousand bucks in a seedyneighborhood, but then you're
also being exposed to thewealthy bougie side.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yeah, and without having to pay for anything.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
So it was a good and I was making like $32,000 a year
at that job.
I see, yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:43):
That's like an interesting dichotomy, the two
different kinds of living in NewYork.
But I feel I relate to that alot because when I first moved
here I had nothing but like Iwas going to all these really
fancy model party scenes.
So it's like just like seeingboth sides of New York and the
potential Totally.
But so before we get into yourwork as a writer or all that
stuff, I actually want to touchon your running journey because

(06:04):
I know your running started.
It must have started young, orwhen did you get into running?

Speaker 2 (06:08):
on my 23rd birthday.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
Oh, really okay so you got into running.
I would have assumed you wererunning in like high school or
something based on your times,because I looked up your prs,
which is something I always dowhen I'm vetting everybody out.
I'm like, okay, well, let's seelike how, like what are their
prs?
And you, you run a sub-threemarathon.
You've run sub-60 minutes inthe 10-mile distance, which is
the most important distance tome, as many of my listeners know
Sub-60?

(06:30):
, sub-60, yeah, yeah sub-60minutes in the 10-mile distance.
You've broken 17 minutes in the5K 1620.
1625.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
1625.

Speaker 1 (06:39):
And a five-flat mile.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
Well, yes, it was a 459, but because of the rounding
up, yes.

Speaker 1 (06:46):
Well, regardless, regardless.
You're really fast and so, likeyou get a lot of street cred in
my book for how fast you are,especially considering you, I
guess, started later in life.
How did?
How did running happen?

Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yeah, I mean the running journey.
Let's see so, as a kid I was, Iwas always pretty good
athletically.
I was a swimmer, I was askateboarder, I was a dirt biker
, I was into trick bikes as alittle kid, you know.
And then I started getting intowell, okay, so around the age
of 13, 14, I was skateboarding alot and, as a lot of kids in

(07:23):
the 1980s who were skateboardingand listening to punk rock, I
also started smoking cigarettesand other things and I just got
out of kind of that athleticmindset and I was never a
competitive person.
I was never interested in beingon a team.
I didn't like soccer.
I didn't like playing teamsports.
It just didn't jive with me.

(07:44):
I was a good swimmer but Ididn't like the swim team
culture, even though I could goand win an event at a meet.
I just didn't like being on ateam.
So I ended up getting into.
I just started rebelling and Ispent my teen years, like I
always tell people, I was toobusy pretending to be a French
intellectual than I was.

(08:04):
I was running, so I kind ofspent the next 10 years of my
life just smoking cigarettes,yeah, yeah and and other things.
But like I wound up, uh, I Istarted road biking when I was
16, 17 years old and that wasbecause, I don't know, I was
just feeling really biking whenI was 16, 17 years old and that

(08:26):
was because, I don't know, I wasjust feeling really depressed
and I was feeling really anxious.
And I had an older friend whowas a big road biker and he
would take me on these reallylong bike rides and it became
this really meditative thingthat I started falling in love
with, just going out, becauseI'm from the Midwest, so I could
go out and ride for like 80miles on these like farm in this
farmland and just really I grewto love that.

(08:48):
But then I kept, you know, Iwent to college and I was still
I would ride occasionally in thewarmer months but the rest of
the time I was just smoking andreading and you know I was in.
I started as an art major.
I was like I was a very artarty.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
So arty smoker.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
Arty smoker.

Speaker 1 (09:06):
And that set the stage for then.
That makes these times evenmore impressive to me because
it's, like you know, like tofind the sport later on.
I obviously relate to that alot because I started running in
my 20s as well.
How did it go from that torunning these fast times?

Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, I mean so 23,.
My dad, on my 23rd birthday, mydad took me to dinner with my
mom and then he took me out to.
I was talking about gettinginto running and he said, oh,
you should.
Um, this is actually relates toother things, but he gave me a
bunch of his old t-shirts and Ireally liked these t-shirts.
I had a really cool aestheticwhich led to him saying you know
why don't I go buy you aparachute?
So I went out and ran a milethat night when we got home from

(09:48):
dinner and it was kind of likethe best drug I'd ever taken.
It was this incredibly, it wasa rush and I thought I want to
do that again.
So the next day I ran anothermile and then the day after that
and I spent the next sevenyears just running completely on
my own.
I never ran races.
I didn't wear a watch, I wasn'tinterested in mileage.
I never ran with other people.

(10:09):
Well, occasionally I would runwith somebody, but for the most
part it was like a form ofmeditation, like the bike had
been.
And then I went to graduateschool and when I finished grad
school I was 27.

Speaker 1 (10:21):
Was this Minneapolis?
It was in Chicago, oh, inChicago.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah, and so I left New York.
I moved here in 99.
And then 2002, I went to gradschool, and when I finished my
degree I was suddenly bereft.
I had nothing to do, I had nogoals, I had no projects.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
I had no, like you know, grad school is a really
intense thing and you'reconstantly like embarking on a
new class, a new book, a newpaper, a new you know, and it's
like a really tangible goals ona calendar, right, and so
without that, I was like I needsomething, and so I spent the
summer kind of down.

Speaker 2 (10:57):
A friend of mine suggested we train for the
Chicago Marathon, and so she andI were like we just got really
into that, and that was in 2004.

Speaker 1 (11:06):
So your first marathon 2004.

Speaker 2 (11:08):
Yeah, and that was.
I was still 29 at that point.
And then when I turned 30, butyou know, again, I ran it
without a watch, I wasn'tinterested in time, I wasn't
competing, it was just can Ifinish a marathon?
And then I realized I reallyenjoyed that.
So I ran another marathon,ended up running a sub three in
my second marathon, which was inNew Orleans, and I didn't know
what that meant.

(11:28):
People were like oh, you should, yeah, this is in 2006.
And people are like are yougoing to run Boston?
And I was like why is everybodyasking me if I'm going to like,
why not Cleveland?

Speaker 1 (11:38):
Or I had no idea what the Boston Marathon meant.

Speaker 2 (11:41):
I didn't even know I'd qualified, I didn't know
what that meant, and so Idiscovered all of that.
And then I applied or Iregistered for the Boston
Marathon, because back then youcould do that without.

Speaker 1 (11:50):
You could just register without qualifying.

Speaker 2 (11:51):
No, without Like it didn't sell out.

Speaker 1 (11:53):
Oh, I see, Because there's like enough spots, yeah,
so in.

Speaker 2 (11:56):
February of 2006,.
I just signed up for the BostonMarathon, which was in two
months, and I went and ran it.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (12:01):
And then I thought, okay, maybe I should try a
shorter distance, and then thatled to 10Ks and 5Ks Wow.

Speaker 1 (12:10):
Okay, this blows my mind partially because I feel
like I'm hearing myself a littlebit, because I obviously
started running later and then,also, not knowing you, qualified
.
That was my story At CIM.
I ran and people were like, ohwow, sub three qualified and I'm
like I have no idea what any ofthis is but, and running alone,
meditation, that's all how Icame into running.
But so then, as you starteddoing the track distances later,

(12:31):
that's kind of what I did.
But I also think of you like ifI didn't know any of this.
I always thought of you as,like the track guy I'm like oh,
David, Alm, 5,000 meters,because you hosted all the track
events that I just assumed this, but, um, I guess I was wrong.
So once you, once you startedrunning the marathons and then
you decided to go into theshorter distance, is that when
you started structuring yourtraining to be more like speed,

(12:51):
specific and like having moretime goals or anything like that
?

Speaker 2 (12:55):
I guess.
So I mean, I I don't reallyremember how, like the evolution
, I just remember that when Irealized I had a certain ability
to run, you know, and it'sfunny, like you say fast, I
don't, you know, whenever you'rea runner, like you never feel
like you're fast.
Totally you know so many peoplefaster.
And you're like who am I?
Like I'm not fast.

(13:19):
You are realize at some pointthat, uh, the the challenge of
each individual distance waskind of like a different.
I just liked the project of the5k.
I wanted to like, but I again,even there I was never like
aiming to run sub 17 or I wasnever aiming to run sub 35 in
the 10k.
I was never aiming to run subwhatever in the half, like they

(13:42):
were just these.
These were just things thathappened in the course of, you
know, being as fast as I couldbe at that on that day.
I totally get this.

Speaker 1 (13:54):
It's exactly the same with me.
Like I feel like once I likebroke 35 in the 10K, it's like,
oh, what does this even mean?
And oh, it was like kind of a.
I always think of it like itwas a mathematical equation of
like, okay, training looked likethis, and then this is the
result it's because I was doingK repeats at this pace and that
just turned into the like.
It just becomes like a linearthing and it's not necessarily
like the goal, but you, justonce you do it, you're like you

(14:15):
check that box and you're likeokay, that was.
That was interesting.
But I did notice that for forthe sub 60, 10 miler, I think
that was the one, or maybe no,maybe it was the one 20 half in
Staten Island, when I waslooking through your Strava,
there was one where you had likea long period where you had PR
for the first time after likesince 2012,.
It was like you PR in 2019,again after 2012.

(14:36):
So it was almost like a periodwhere you it seemed like you
really came back into the sportin a more competitive way.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
And the sport in a more competitive way.
And I was wondering if you hadjoined a team or if age of 32
and 36 and that was like halfeverything.
Everything was between 32 and36 and I'm 49 now.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
So when it was like the in 2008 through 2012 roughly
2008 through 2012 roughly, andthen I did have a lull and I
think during that lull I, youknow, I've suffered injuries,
I've had torn hamstrings, I'vehad like you know just like
various ailments that have comeabout um, I've also kind of lost

(15:39):
desire yeah, like life happens,yeah, so you get in the zone,
then you kind of fall out of thezone and then yeah yeah, um,
but I think I do remember in2016, at age 41, I ran within
like two seconds of my four milepr.
That was a big deal to mebecause it could have been seven
years since my four mile pr,but yeah, I don't remember 2019

(16:03):
there being a big I just it wassomething that I noticed and it
I guess it stood out to mebecause it kind of reminds me of
my own phases in running where,like, sometimes you're just
running, you don't really care,and then wildly, you have a PR
in a distance that you've.
You're like oh, and I was justcurious, like if maybe you had
like started training with NewYork, because there was like a
boom in New York, I think around2016, where everyone was

(16:24):
joining these track teams andthey were all racing and stuff
or doing all the races, and Iwas just wondering if there was
like a community that you hadkind of like fallen into.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
Well, definitely, I mean.
So I was on Central Park TrackClub for a really long time from
2000.
I started training with CentralPark in 2007 and I left last
year, so 17 years I was-.

Speaker 1 (16:42):
With that team.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
I was with that team.
I was involved with CentralPark Track Club, but in 2015, I
moved to my current apartment inBed-Stuy.
I've always lived in Brooklyn.
As long as I've been in like.
For the last 20 years I've beenin Brooklyn and 10 years ago I
moved to Bed-Stuy and I wassuddenly surrounded by people
who ran for NBR.
So I just started running withNorth Brooklyn Runners a bunch
even though I still was, atleast technically, on Central

(17:07):
Park track club and running withlike James Chu, I know, you
know.
James, you guys ran this morning, I think um, you know, running
with James, and then you know myfriends like Kieran and Xander,
wolverton and Alex you know allthose, all those.
Nbr guys.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
That kept me motivated because they're all
like except for james like 10 to15 years younger than I am, so
it's good to just have thatgroup of people to train with
right and like rubbing shoulderswith people talking about
running in a different way oflike oh, I gotta do that 20
miler where I'm doing tenantmarathon pace versus just
running for fun yeah, and unlikethe central park community,

(17:43):
they all live in Manhattan and Idon't, and I never like I never
really felt like I fit in onCentral Park anyway.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
You know I've liked you know I have some very close
friends on Central Park, butit's a very it's a different
kind of a vibe than NBR Rightlot to be living near the people
that I was running with,because then we would hang out,
we would have drinks, we wouldhave brunch, we would like
invite each other to our partiesand it just became more of like

(18:10):
a social scene that also wasvery dedicated to fast running.

Speaker 1 (18:15):
I totally get that.
I think that like it'sinteresting for someone like me
as well.
I think we're very similar inthis way, where it's like there
are the teams and we might havebeen affiliated with certain
teams at different points, likeI.
I was on NBR for a little bit.
I was I'm still on Brooklyntrack club, but it's like who
you actually hang with andliterally run with are maybe not
the same.
Like it's just the people thatyou have, like my guys.
I have a wolf pack of guys thatI have pictures of back here

(18:36):
that are just like we were allon different teams.
We're not on the same team,we're not training for the same
races, but we just run togetherand we're homies forever, yeah,
but um, okay, well enough aboutrunning.
I just I went down a littlerabbit hole there just cause I
was curious, cause, like I, Ijust definitely respect your
times.
You've done a lot of like um,you've done had some great
accomplishments with running andI thought it was worth like

(18:56):
bringing up.
But the thing that I reallywant to talk to you today about
is your writing um, because overthe past few years you've
written some major stories, um,one that comes to top my mind.
There's many but um, you wroteabout the gaslighting of shakari
richardson surrounding theolympics.
Um, the ban with um thecannabis test positive, uh made

(19:19):
it so that shakari couldn't goto the olympics and that was an
amazing piece and that was likeone that I definitely saw like
circulating a lot and it openedup a really big conversation
around the country.
Like everyone was talking aboutthat topic, so it was kind of
like a household conversation.
But you've also covered close tohome stories of you know,

(19:41):
people that we can consider afriend and like, for example,
somebody from who used to be onMBR, connie, this cover story
that you did that was about herescaping the Hasidic community
or the Orthodox community.
I guess it's the same thingEscaping and finding their way
on their own away from thiscommunity through running and

(20:04):
literally.
And so I was wondering, whenyou're covering a story that's
like a national household nameSha'Carri Richardson versus
someone you kind of know in theNew York community, are there
challenges of covering somebodywho's very famous versus someone
that you're just anacquaintance with?

Speaker 2 (20:22):
It's a great question .
Those were two radicallydifferent experiences.
Like the Sha'Carri Richardsonpiece, I wrote in a day because
that had just happened.
You know, she had just gottenthe you know the positive drug
test and then she just got theban.
She was just told you're notrunning in the Olympics and the
thing that and then Sha'Carriwas on the Today Show and the

(20:44):
thing that struck me aboutshakari was on the today show
and the thing that struck meabout her performance, like her
appearance on the today show,was that the way she was
questioned it was sort of likeand that's where the term
gaslighting came because peoplein the comments were like look
up gaslighting.
This isn't gaslighting.
You don't know what gaslightingis.
What I was getting at was theway that shakari was kind of

(21:04):
being pushed into a corner andmade to like feel bad about what
she had done, rather than thejournalists talking more, having
a more elevated conversationabout the ethics of this ban and
whether or not, and you knowwhat like they were kind of
forcing Sha'Carari to say I'msorry, I know what I did was

(21:27):
wrong, I'm really begging forforgiveness, basically, and I
and that was really troubling tome because I didn't think that
she had anything to apologizefor.
I didn't think she needed tobeg for the forgiveness, but
knowing how sponsorships work,knowing how, um, the just the
way that the media treatsespecially a young black woman

(21:47):
who gets busted for for weed andis an athlete and supposedly
you know a role model that theywere trying to, I, I just
thought that they were trying tomake her feel guilty in a way
that they that was inappropriateand insensitive to her and to
the realities of cannabispolicing, you know, and wada

(22:09):
world athletic, drug, drugassociation and so on.
So I think, or doping,anti-doping, but um, yeah, so
that story, basically all thathappened.
And then I emailed my editor atrunners world and I was like
I'm really bothered by the waythat she was interviewed on the
today show.
I feel like there's an op-edhere.
I don't like writing op-eds andI'm happy to talk about that in

(22:31):
a minute, but I wanted to weighin because I was really
bothered and at the time myeditor said you know, right now
we're treating this as a newsstory.
Let's hold off on offeringopinions.
But then after a couple moredays, she got back to me and
said okay, we're ready to likeshare an opinion, and so I, she.
But we had to move quicklybecause it was breaking news and

(22:52):
so I had to just basically likesequester myself for half a day
and just work on it.
But I never interviewed her, Inever had a chance to sit down,
I wasn't able to like be withher.

Speaker 1 (23:02):
Yeah Right, um, I was able to finally be with her.

Speaker 2 (23:03):
Yeah right, I was able to finally get her agent on
a text exchange.
I got his number and hebasically declined an interview,
but he did share his feelingsthat he said you know, this is a
really troubling situation andI hope that it.
I hope that it inspired someconversation and reflection at
the national level,international level.
So that was a really goodexperience.

(23:25):
But it was not the same aswriting about Connie or any of
these other pieces that haverequired many months of in-depth
conversations, long, thoughtful, yeah the piece on Connie was
pretty remarkable.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
I knew Connie and I actually we had done a shoot
together in like 2016, uh, fornike, and I had no idea, like I,
I knew some stuff, but I had noidea until this and then it
then it like really came likethe whole story of like just
what her life was like beforeand having a child, and just to

(24:04):
have somebody tell it was justpretty amazing, um, because it's
like here's someone I just wasrunning with and I didn't even
realize that this, this wasgoing on, but amazing story, um.
And then our friend, drewreynolds, I think, shot the
cover too, it's cool that we'reall we all just like right, are
so close, um, but your style ofwriting is so distinct, um,
especially in these long, longform pieces where it feels like

(24:27):
you're literally sitting withthem, with your subject in their
darkest hours, even where it'sthe moments where you wouldn't
expect someone to get out ofsomebody, and I wanted to get
the listeners a taste of that.
If you haven't read any ofDavidid's pieces, so if you
don't mind, would you read, um,a piece that you wrote, uh
called the other rapinoe, aboutthe soccer player.

(24:50):
Uh, that was actually publishedin, uh, this year's best sports
writing book.
Um, I just was hoping you couldread the intro, yeah, um, just
so people can get a taste ofwhat your style is like.

Speaker 2 (25:03):
Sure, my bookmark, by the way, is from Myopic Books,
so shout out to Myopic Books inChicago.
Okay, so the intro, just thefirst paragraph, Just the first
paragraph yeah, the house wasdark.
Rachel Rapinoe walked into thekitchen and turned on the light.

(25:25):
She sliced a banana in half,placed a pint of vanilla ice
cream on the counter to thaw andscooped a pat of butter into a
sauté pan.
The pat morphed into a puddleand began to bubble.
Rachel added cinnamon, brownsugar and brandy, stirring the

(25:45):
mixture slowly over low heat.
As the sweet, nutty fragranceof bananas foster filled the
kitchen, rachel's lonelinessbegan to melt away.
Her nightly Vicodin was justkicking in.

Speaker 1 (26:01):
Amazing.
That is the example of.
That's an example of the levelof intimacy and I'm just
wondering how do you foster thatkind of trust with your
subjects?

Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yeah, so it's a great question.
So each of these pieces is verydifferent.
Rachel and I have had thepleasure of having a really long
lunch with Rachel, but afterthis story was published in
person.
Other than that, all of ourconversations were conducted
over zoom, because she lives inportland and I'm in new york,

(26:37):
and so we just developed thisroutine of getting on these zoom
calls and it was like everyweek we would spend an hour or
two having a really longconversation that I think we did
like six or seven of these, inaddition to multiple phone calls
and text exchanges.
We were just sort of like onspeed dial with each other for
for several months, just gettingto know, like developing, I

(27:02):
think, a rapport and arelationship that allowed me to
just like really the way thatthat came about.
That intro is, you know, I wasbasically just just getting
Rachel's whole life story, andwhen I first made contact with
Rachel it was in the summer of2022 for a different story I was

(27:24):
writing for a differentmagazine, and it was kind of a
roundabout way that I ended upon the phone with Rachel Rapinoe
, but I asked her a little bitabout her life, about her past,
and she told me oh, you know, Igrew up, I was a soccer player
too Megan obviously is famous,but I was also a great soccer
player.
But then I had all theseinjuries and that led to opioid
addiction.
You know I have a familyhistory with addiction, like my

(27:46):
brother's a heroin addict, andmy you know grandparent,
grandfather, was an alcoholic,and you know she was describing
like these and I remember sayinglike wow, somebody should write
about you like you're.
So that began a process of justgetting to know her and it was
very matter of fact, veryfactual, just like tell me what
happened then.
Like tell me about yourchildhood, where were you living

(28:11):
, when did you start playingsoccer?
And just asking these questions.
And when she mentioned theopioids, like she said, you know
I had this injury and I wasback in Reading where I grew up
recovering from this meniscustear that I was on.
I was prescribed Vicodin andevery night I would just take
Vicodin and it was just sort oflike, even if I wasn't in pain,
I would just take Vicodinbecause I was lonely and I felt
sad and I was depressed andMegan was off in Chicago living

(28:34):
large, and here I am stuck inReading, and so I just asked her
like what would you do?
You know, because you're, whenyou're writing these stories,
you all, you always have to bethinking I need to paint a
picture, I need to tell a story,I need to create a scene.
It's not enough to say I wastaking Vicodin every night,
because that would be a boringsentence it's like the exact
moment, like eating, like eatingthe ice cream.
So I asked her like what wouldyou do?

(28:55):
And she said I'll never forgetthis moment in the conversation.
But she was like she kind oflaughed and said, well, you know
, I don't know if you're goingto want to include this, but I
would make bananas foster.
And I said really, and she andshe was like yeah, I never ate
bananas foster.
I didn't.
I had never had it before,haven't had it since.
But during that period when Iwas on vicodin, every night I
would make bananas foster and Ididn't really know exactly how

(29:19):
to make bananas.
So I looked it up and I foundout that it has all these
ingredients that you have tolike simmer the butter and then
you have to put in the cinnamonand the brandy and you have to
do all this stuff.
And it occurred to me that theaesthetic of cooking bananas
foster is a lot like cookingheroin in a spoon.
The aesthetic is very similarand I thought that is the

(29:42):
perfect image to lead this piecewith, because you never know
where those in the middle of aconversation, somebody might say
something you'd be like thereit is.
That's my hook, yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
Incredible.
I thought that was such a, eventhough that that story is
obviously not about a runner and, like a lot of the stories that
I've that I've read are, um, Ithought that was just such an
amazing opener for a piece.
It makes sense why it's in thisbook.
Um, but yeah, I was so curious,like how, how you can paint
these pictures, cause that'ssomething that's in all of your
articles and pieces.
Um, but that leads me to mynext question of how you find

(30:20):
your subject.
So you, you said that yourealized with Rachel that, while
everyone's talking about hersister, that you had heard
something and you're like, okay,no, the story needs to be about
you.
Put a frame around you.
How do you find your subjects?
Is it like that, or are youjust hear something?

Speaker 2 (30:33):
and it clicks.
It's always kind of justkeeping your ear to the ground
and always thinking like lookingaround the corner like where's
my next story?

Speaker 1 (30:42):
Well, I'm curious.
So Sophia real quick.
This is the latest issue ofRunner's World and the main
story here is about our mutualfriend Sophia Camacho, who's
actually a podcast alum.
And shout about our mutualfriend Sophia Camacho, who's
actually a podcast alum, andshout out Sophia.
And when they were here, theywere talking about working with
a journalist because it seemedlike it took several months.
You were going to the dragshows.

(31:04):
You were just living amongstSophia.
So in a case like this, how didyou hear about Sophia?

Speaker 2 (31:13):
So Sophia was connected to me through James
Chu back in, and actually Jamesis also.
James and I are such goodfriends.
Connie Allen came about becauseI'll just go back really
quickly, Way back in 2016,.
I was at McCarran Track withJames and Connie was doing
200-meter sprints and he pointedto her and said she's one of my

(31:36):
new athletes.
Like, she just hired me tocoach her in the marathon and he
was like she's kind ofinteresting.
You know, she um not kind of.
She's really interesting.
She grew up in HasidicWilliamsburg and she, you know,
had the whole like she had thewig and had a baby at like 19
and then she got out and Iremember had a baby at like 19
and then she got out and Iremember just filing that away

(31:56):
and thinking that is such aninteresting story.
And so when the pandemic hitand I suddenly had a lot of time
on my hands, I reached out tokanye and I was like hey, we
don't really know each othervery well.
We've met, but I'm a writer andI would love to write about you
and she was reluctant becauseshe said you know, people have
asked me and they and theyalways seem to get my story
wrong, like somebody from NYUmade a film about her at one
point and she was really unhappywith the how it came out with

(32:18):
the.
It was a student film project,but it just didn't they took too
many liberties, they theypresumed too much and I said,
look, I'm gonna, I'm gonna takeenormous care with this so
that's how Connie Allen cameabout.
Similarly, in about a year agoright now, in March of 2024,
sophia had posted something onInstagram about.

(32:38):
They had written an essay aboutsomething that had happened to
them in high school and theywere looking for a professional
editor or writer to read it andgive them some guidance on what
they could do with this essay.
And so James forwarded me theirstory and said you might get in
touch with this person.
They're a great athlete,they're in Brooklyn Track Club.

(33:00):
And so I, kind of as a favor toJames and also just out of
curiosity, I was like yeah, sure, I'll take a look at the essay
and so got in touch with Sophia.
They sent me the essay, I readit and I knew immediately that
there was a worthwhile storyhere.
I mean, it was like it was.

(33:20):
But at the time I rememberthinking like I feel like this
is going to be a better story asa reported piece about Sophia.
I mean, Sophia is a verythoughtful writer.
There was a lot of merit in theessay that they wrote, but I I
knew that it should be aboutmore than that one period of
their high school.

Speaker 1 (33:36):
I totally agree and if anyone didn't see the Sophia
episode or read the article,sophia is a non-binary,
incredibly talented athlete thathas Olympic potential, 229
marathoner and is still quiteyoung, but also comes from this
story of an abusive past and um.
How they came into the sport isreally dark.

(33:58):
So, um, yeah, but I thoughtthat that was an amazing um
piece that you had written,because it really shows more
than just the dark stuff, likeit shows the drag and the
finding performance, and well soyeah, and so to that point, if
I, if I can just interject, umthat that initial conversation

(34:18):
didn't isn't when the reportingon sophia began.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
That wasn't until september.
So even though I had laid thefoundation in march and
developed a rapport with sophia,it wasn't until september that
I actually got an.
And I don't know how much Ishould go into detail here, but
I actually initially wrote itfor a different publication and
it was a very prominentpublication.

Speaker 1 (34:40):
I think I know which one.

Speaker 2 (34:41):
And that publication killed it the week it was
supposed to be published.

Speaker 1 (34:46):
And I never really got.
You don't know why.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
The most that I could gather from all this was that
they didn't see the value theythe.
My editor was sort of like theintermediary between other
editors and me, so it was kindof like I I, but what I gathered
was they just didn't see whySophia mattered.

Speaker 1 (35:11):
They didn't see the.

Speaker 2 (35:11):
They didn't see the.
You know, it was a reallyfrustrating experience.

Speaker 1 (35:19):
And that's pretty heartbreaking because it's I
mean, I'm so invested inSophia's story.
I love Sophia, so yeah I'm.
But if it's not right for that,that's probably a good thing,
because maybe the audiencewouldn't have been the right
audience.

Speaker 2 (35:33):
You know it was a great thing for a number of
reasons.
The the first really big thingthat made it great was this is
before they won new york andbefore they, uh, set a pr of 229
this is before, like there wereit was.
The original publication datewas end of october, so I had six

(35:53):
weeks to, or like seven weeksto go all in and I was getting
up at four o'clock in themorning, putting in 16 hour days
like embedding myself inSophia's world going to as many
drag shows as I could.
I was like living as much theirlife as I could and as much as
they would let me in.
So when it got killed, I washeartbroken.

(36:15):
But then I realized actuallythis is great because if I write
it for a magazine like Runner'sWorld, where I know I'm going
to have great editorial support,I know that they're going to
give me a higher word count,which they did.
It doubled the length and theyrecognized the importance of
Sophia, the value of Sophia, andit gave me a longer timeline

(36:37):
because now the story you'veread it it goes up through
January.

Speaker 1 (36:41):
With Valencia included, with.

Speaker 2 (36:42):
Valencia and with all of this and the election.
And so the timeline is muchricher and so it's a more
consequential story.
So I'm really glad that it gotkilled.
But, yeah, I only share thatpart of the, that history of the
piece, because I think it'sworth knowing for a couple of

(37:03):
reasons.
One, publications are still,you know, a little bit reluctant
to touch stories like Sophia's,for reasons that we can only
guess at.
But also the importance of likeperseverance, like if you
believe in a story, don't giveup on it.
And the photographer that shotthe photos, the amazing pictures

(37:24):
, mary Kang, was thephotographer that had been or
hired originally for theoriginal publication, and she
too was like we can't give up onthis Right.

Speaker 1 (37:32):
Well, yeah, sophia is just getting started.
Like this is.
It's great that it happenedwhen it did and I think, like,
as time goes on, um, I mean, Ibelieve there's a documentary
being made about them right now,but, um, yeah, so I'm glad that
you were the person to tell itand got it, got to have the, the
, the length added and um justmakes the arc of it, uh, more

(37:52):
interesting.
But it's an amazing piece.
It's in the most recent issueof Runner's World, so people
should go check it out.
But so we've talked a lot aboutrunning stories that you've
written, but you've also writtennon-running stories and
non-athletic related stories,and one of those pieces we were
just talking about this morning,if you don't mind describing

(38:14):
the piece you wrote for MotherJones, which we do have here
somewhere, this one- yeah, Ishould say like the writing
about running thing isrelatively new.

Speaker 2 (38:21):
I didn't really do this until the last five or six
years.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
Like.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
I had written a few pieces for Runner's World like
10, 12 years ago, but for themost part my writing career is
like these, like profiles ofathletes is a kind of a new part
chapter yeah, it's just likethe tip of the iceberg and it's
maybe something that exposedyour work to someone like me,
because I was in the runningcommunity.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
I just happened to read, but you've written.
You have a vast body of work.
That's not with athletes, umyeah you were even a ghost
writer for a while.

Speaker 2 (38:52):
I think, yeah, I ghost wrote for a web designer
um the guy who developed flashso if you've ever heard of flash
, um, I was his ghostwriter fora couple books and I wrote about
film for the for a really longtime oh, I wrote about, like
documentary film.
Uh, he was a filmmaker and a webdesigner, um, but I also wrote
features about filmmakers and,uh, critical work about film my

(39:15):
back, my academic background isin film history and film theory
so, like I, that was kind of mymain focus for a really long
time.
But then I stopped and Imentioned earlier not writing,
not liking op eds.
Part of the reason I wanted toget away from writing about film
is that I got sick of havingopinions.
I got really sick of having atake.
I feel, like the internet isflooded with takes, everybody's

(39:36):
got a take, everybody's got anopinion.
And I was like I don't, I don'twant to write opinions anymore.
Who cares what I think like,I'm just some, I'm just somebody
yeah everybody else.
What I wanted to do instead wastell original stories that had
never been told before, and Iwanted to find a way to like
bring that out, and so that'swhen I started writing these
longer do you feel like uh, italmost makes me think about,

(39:59):
like with musicians, um, whenthey get boxed into a niche
thing.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
so sometimes it helps to have like a thing like?
I obviously had you on mypodcast today because I was like
, okay, writes about runners andthat's how I know you, but at
the same time it's like, oh,like, oh, wait, wait, wait.
I have like this whole otherlike, all this other time that I
put into all these other things.
Do you feel like it helps,though, to have like a niche
thing of like writing it Like?
I'm just asking as like.
So my dad was a journalist aswell.
He wrote about food, and thatwas his thing, and he wrote

(40:27):
about other stuff, but like thestuff put into this box and then
it like kind of is good,because then you're the person
that people go to.
Do you think it's like that'ssomething that people should try
to find like their niche, or I?

Speaker 2 (40:38):
mean, it's a great question.
I I think there there aredefinitely benefits to having
like I.
I love writing about people.
I like people.
I find people interesting.
I like learning.
I like finding that you peopleinteresting.
I like learning.

(40:58):
I like finding that you know.
I like finding that thing thatmotivates a person to run as
fast as Sophia Camacho does.
I like finding that, that innernarrative that is kind of
buried within a person that youcan bring out through good
storytelling.
That's, that's what I reallylike to do, but I feel like that
can be applied in various waysand so, like this Mother Jones

(41:20):
piece you mentioned, that storyis about the website Omegle,
which I had never heard of untilabout when was it Three years
ago?
Yeah, like April, march, aprilof 2022.
The child of a close friendmentioned that they had this

(41:44):
experience on this website,where they were asked to do
really inappropriate things forthe benefit of this man in his
40s, and I was like Kind of likechat roulette a little bit like
chat roulette and I was likewhat the hell is this?
I had never heard of it.
The difference between Omegleand chat roulette is on Omegle,
you'd never had to enter logininformation, it was totally
anonymous.

(42:04):
And so I was like I've neverheard of this before.
And then I started askingfriends, kids, because you know,
I'm in my 40s.
I'm like I'm glad I didn't know, because if I were, a man in
his 40s who knew what a mega was.
That's a problem yeah, um so Istarted asking my friends, kids,
and they were, and I noticedlike pretty much anyone under 25
all knew what a mega was.
People over 25 kind of touchand go, like some people did,

(42:27):
most people didn't and I just.
It sent me down this rabbithole of learning everything that
I could about the legality.
And then I stumbled upon alawsuit where there was a woman
in where was she?
Australia suing Omegle formaybe Fiji suing Omegle for $22

(42:48):
million for abuse that she hadsuffered as an 11-year-old girl,
for abuse that she had sufferedas an 11-year-old girl.
And I talked to the lawyerbringing the lawsuit against
Omegle, Kerry Goldberg, and itjust went.
It became this like reallyinteresting piece about this
dark corner of the internet andthe way in which Section 230 of

(43:10):
the Communications Decency Actof 1996, which basically is the
26 words that created theinternet basically it mean the
section 230 says a platform isnot liable for the things that
are done on the platform.

Speaker 1 (43:24):
So like you can't sue at&t if somebody uses a phone
to call in a bomb threat, right,or if you can't like it's, it
got tricky around the electionsbecause Facebook with the
politics stuff, exactly, yeah,yeah and so, like all of these
social media platforms, alwaystrot out Section 230 and say
Section 230 allows us to do this, like we're not responsible,

(43:45):
we're not publishers, we'remerely a platform.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
So that's how Omegle was able to operate with
impunity, for, I mean, it wasfounded in 2009.
And up until last year, 2023,it operated with total impunity
and leading to the abuse of achild who was really I was
really close to and led I mean,this led them to attempt suicide

(44:08):
and I was just like I need tofigure this, I need to.
I was motivated to.

Speaker 1 (44:15):
Get to the bottom.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
Get to the bottom of it and give a.
And also I was shocked that noone had ever written.

Speaker 1 (44:20):
About it.

Speaker 2 (44:21):
About it Like there was a BBC investigation from
years prior, but it was muchshorter and it was much
shallower and I wanted to tell atrue, like deep magazine worthy
piece.

Speaker 1 (44:30):
Right.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
And so that.
But like it was similar towriting about Rachel Rapinoe or
writing about Sophia Camacho orany of these people, because in
that piece I found a subject Ihad to.
I had to write about a person.
You know, all these stories areonly compelling insofar as they
are human stories.
So I had to find a human thatwould allow me to write about
them and I found this youngwoman, very brave young woman in

(44:54):
Wyoming named Alana, and sheand her mother, crystal, allowed
me to interview themextensively about, and so
Crystal and her daughter Alanabecame, like kind of the main
subjects of the piece.
So very similar to interviewingRachel or Sophia.
I just spent a lot of time.
I really got to know Crystal, Ireally got to know Alana and

(45:16):
got to know their lives, got toknow their personalities, I got
to know their histories, I gotto know everything about them,
down to the details of thelittle town in Wyoming where
they live, because Alana, likemy friend's child, had been
groomed and abused on Omegle andit led her down a really dark
path and so that.

(45:38):
But it's like telling humanstories, it's always about
finding that humanity in alarger narrative, whether it's
opioid addiction like RachelRapinoe or abuse and opioid
addiction and being a non-binaryathlete like Sophia Camacho,
opioid addiction and being anon-binary athlete like Sophia
Camacho it's always finding thathuman story.

Speaker 1 (45:58):
that then you use to telescope out and tell a bigger
picture, right?
So, because you just mentionedthis, there are a lot of
noticeable themes in your work.
You have a lot of common themesin the body of work by David
Alm and these include escapingtrauma addiction.
These include escaping traumaaddiction um feature.
You feature marginalizedcommunities, um like lgbqtia,
plus bipoc people like you're.

(46:20):
You're very good at putting aframe around people who don't
often get a lot of um attention.
You've also um like.
These themes are very prevalentin your work.
Do you seek, do you feel likeyou're seeking them out, or does
it come up as your um, as yourwriting?
I mean, I guess with the Omeglestory, you sought that out
because you saw a need for astory about this thing that

(46:41):
nobody was talking about.
But with all the other articlesthat I've read, does it just
like?
How does that work?
Like you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
Like you have your themes that I feel like you
stick with.
But yeah, I mean it's funny,it's I'm.
I'm glad you brought it up,because I I never know how to
talk about this or think aboutit.
I mean, I'm a cisgender whiteman in his 40s and I'm straight
like I'm none of I'm the leastmarginalized on the planet.
Um, I'm thinning slightly on topas you, um, but no, like I

(47:15):
think it.
For me it comes down to.
I think a lot of it originatesin kind of what I alluded to
before, but like this you know,in the 1980s I was like this
punk kid.
I was going to punk shows and Iwas hanging out with punks and
when we were going to likewarehouses and mosh pits and I
was surrounded by kind of peoplewho felt like they were thrown

(47:38):
away by society, even though Iwasn't like, I came from
quote-unquote good family.
I had both mom and dad at home,I had I, I had I wasn't, uh,
impoverished.
I had a good, stable, middleclass childhood.
But I found myself throughvarious for various reasons.

(47:59):
I was just rebelling againstthe structures in the society
that I was around, you know,like the church and the and
middle class values and likeeverything about the Midwest and
all of it I just started reallyrebelling against and that put
me in very close contact with alot of people who had it a lot

(48:19):
worse than I did.
And I think it just made me, Idon't know.
There's like a certain amountof anger that I feel towards
society about the way people aretreated and the way, um, kind
of the mainstream sort ofchampions some narratives and
sidelines others, and so I don'tgo seeking out like I didn't.

(48:42):
I wasn't looking for.
You know somebody like tyrichards right, we have to
mention thai.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
Um so ty, richards is this is the cover story that
was about the weed running.
What was the article?

Speaker 2 (48:57):
It's called are runners ready to get high?
I think so.

Speaker 1 (49:01):
Are runners ready to get high?
Ty Richards was on my speedproject team and I didn't know
anything about him until we wererunning the speed project and I
was like he's the one who hasdestigmatized cannabis and
running and runs like the runclub that they just get high and
go run.
And so you wrote the story onthat, so you weren't looking for
this, or you just-.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
No, I wasn't looking for that.
I wasn't looking for Sophia, Iwasn't looking for Connie, I
wasn't looking for any of them.
But when somebody mentionssomething like Ty came to me
because my friend Katie, who'son my Hood to coast team I run
hood to coast every year inOregon she is a big proponent of
cannabis and she loves you know, she loves her weed, and so she

(49:42):
uh, found him.
She was in San Francisco, butshe found him online and she was
like do you know that there's acannabis run?

Speaker 1 (49:48):
club in Brooklyn and I was like whoa, that's so cool.

Speaker 2 (49:51):
I want to go.
I want to.
I just want to go hang out withthem.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
I wanted to go on a run about see what it's about.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
Yeah, and the more I read up on tie, I was like
there's a story there.
And so it's always about, like,keeping your ear to the ground
and not seeking.
I don't go looking for stories.
I wasn't looking for anon-binary elite runner to write
about, right, I'm not lookingfor any of these.
But in order for me to writeabout them, there have to be

(50:16):
these elements that make methink there's got to be like.
I have friends who are like oh,you should write about so and
so, and I'll be like why?

Speaker 1 (50:23):
and they'll say because they're fast it's like
that's not, I could not careless.
Yeah, that is not, that'sthat's.
It's interesting.
Um, to me that's it's almostlike so, as a podcast host,
sometimes when I'm findingguests, that's the most boring
person in the world is like nooffense to elite runners, but
like they it's.
There has to be something else.
There has to be some kind ofother story of why and you know

(50:46):
so I, I completely understandthat, and I think that for me,
finding a good story is so muchmore about where they've come
from, where they're going.
What is a running story thatyou want to tell, that you
haven't been able to yet, thatyou don't mind sharing, that
it's not in the works right now.

Speaker 2 (51:03):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (51:05):
You share one, because I have one that I want
to share too.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
Yeah, the kind of story that I want to tell it
doesn't have to be running ornot.

Speaker 1 (51:16):
It could be any story that you want to tell that you
just haven't found the right wayto yet.

Speaker 2 (51:21):
Yeah, I mean I'll tell you, like there is one
story that I really am trying tofind a way to tell and it's
it's a tough one, but and it'stough for a variety of reasons
Emotionally.
I mean, all of these are verytough emotionally.
I've had to go into therapy.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
I was going to ask that because you're living
inside their world.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
It's really difficult , like the heaviness, like I've
had emotional breakdowns, I'vehad.
There have been like darkperiods and it's not because of
one individual story, itcompounds and it's.
You know, I don't pretend to bea robot that can just sort of

(52:02):
like put on the journalist hatand like I'm a human you know,
and I connect with these, thesesubjects, because they're humans
too and I develop a lot ofempathy for them.
So this story would be difficult.
Because it difficult, becauseit's heavy, but I also was

(52:23):
friends with this person.
But you might recall, a yearago, back in July last year,
there was a woman named MarissaGalloway who was murdered by her
former partner's mother.

Speaker 1 (52:34):
I do remember the story Upper East Side.
Upper East Side, yeah, yes, andCentral Park Truck Club yeah,
she was on Central Park TruckClub.
Yeah, I remember.

Speaker 2 (52:39):
So I knew, knew marissa, she was a friend and
it's a wild story.
Yeah, morning yeah and you know, the only publication that
really covered it in depth wasum of all places.
The new york post, like, reallycovered the, the daily
unfolding of that.
You know what happened, andthen the when the husband fled

(53:00):
and went back to Chicago, andthen you know.
Then he came back to New Yorkand it was like all the
different layers of the fallout.
But I wanted to tell adifferent story.
I wanted to tell a story ofMarissa and the way in which the
I mean running was a big partof her life.

(53:21):
She was a volunteer coach atFordham where she had gone to
college.
She was very well loved by thepeople within her running
community.
She was a special ed teacher,so she has a really, I mean, she
was naturally a very nurturingperson and I wanted to tell a
story that got away from thesensationalized coverage of her
as a um, you know, just like anupper east side mom who was

(53:45):
murdered like I.
I felt like the the dailycoverage didn't capture the
wholeness of marissa and Iwanted to tell that story and
but ultimately I wanted it to bea story about the toxic
relationship that grandparentscan bring into.
The fact that this womanmurdered Marissa and then killed

(54:08):
herself with the next bullet isan incredibly dark, gothic tale
, and on a beautiful Julymorning, right in broad daylight
, in broad daylight yeah, and soI wanted to like use it as an
opportunity to I don't say Ishouldn't say use it, because

(54:30):
that makes it sound tooopportunistic, but like I wanted
to tell a story that reallyhumanized and gave the full
scope of marissa Galloway, butthen also look at it through the
lens of family systems, familyrelations.
There's a whole story thathasn't been told about why she
was living with Marissa, whyMarissa had to get out of that

(54:52):
apartment.
I wanted to unpack the depth ofthat whole story in a way, and
so I'm using past tense, becauseI've shopped this around a
little bit and it hasn't gainedtraction.

Speaker 1 (55:04):
But maybe at some point.

Speaker 2 (55:05):
At some point, and that's kind of the moral of the
story is you have to file awayideas Like I sat on Connie Allen
for four years before itactually became a story
Materialized.

Speaker 1 (55:13):
Right, so you kind of have these little like banks of
.
This is the beginnings of astory and maybe, when the right
time place arises, you can putit out there again and see if
somebody bites.
Yeah, I have the same thing.
I have people that I've kind oflike thought about okay, is
this gonna ever be a thing?
Um, and it just it happens whenit does, and sometimes the
world isn't ready for something.

(55:33):
So it's like you kind of haveto wait for the world to be
ready for your story, um, but Ialways say I'm kind of have to
wait for the world to be readyfor your story, um, but I always
say I'm kind of curious as awriter, um, so a while back, uh,
actually it was through you youhelped me get a story published
in runner's world.
Um, I had that.
I had met someone throughInstagram and I was like I want
to write a story about thisperson.
I flew out to El Paso, shot it,wrote it, did the interviews,

(55:53):
spent like a weekend with thisperson, and it was one of those
things where it's like you areinteresting and I need to tell
this story.
And that was the piece I didabout Blank Bruno, who is also a
non-binary athlete like Sophia,and it was more about like what
is?
What?
Does it look like to be anon-binary athlete in 2022, when
I guess, you know, it was likejust starting to have, there's

(56:14):
just starting to beconversations.
But, um, my question is feedback.
I was scared to death when thisarticle got posted because and
this is maybe where I need toget a little bit thicker skin
but I was afraid of the comments, like I was like I don't want
to read the comments because I'mafraid someone's going to say
you're stupid or, like you know,or even the worst, criticize
the subject of my story.

(56:34):
I didn't want anyone talkingnegatively about the subject of
my story because I got to knowthem I, they became a friend and
I was afraid that I had put aframe around someone and put
them in a public place that I'm,like, somehow responsible if
there's feedback that's negativeor positive, anything, it's
just like.
Am I ready for that burden?
How do you feel about that kindof stuff Like feedback?

(56:56):
Uh like negative criticismnegative criticism or um, like,
if somebody just says I'm notthinking, I don't think this is
a real thing, but I'm like DavidAllman isn't a good writer, huh
, like, I don't know.
Like, if you get any kind oflike negative feedback, how do
you take it?

Speaker 2 (57:09):
well, I mean.
I don't think anyone's eversaid that, but like, yeah, it
doesn't affect me because I Iknow it's not true.
Um, if it were true, itwouldn't.
I mean, I know the process.
Like I have really good editors.

(57:30):
You know, I've been veryfortunate and I'll name them
like runner's world.
Leah Flickinger is a a master,like one of the best editors on
in the country, in my opinion.
Uh, she, I don't know.
If you recall, mitch jacksonhad that incredible piece about
maude arbery yeah, that was anamazing piece yeah, won the
pilitzer prize runner's worldwon a pilots.

(57:51):
Oh yeah, I forgot about that leowas the editor behind that.
You know, um, my editor at gqis now at the atlantic, alex
hoyt.
So he's now a senior editor, orI think that's his title.
But you know, editing featuresfor the Atlantic.
So these are like the creme dela creme of the editing world

(58:11):
and if my piece is, I work onthem, with them, and they get
their stamp of approval and thenit gets published in a major
publication.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
You know it's fun.

Speaker 2 (58:20):
If somebody comes along and says you're not a good
writer, I'll be like.
I think I would beg to differ.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
Right.
Well, like I guess what I waskind of going back to was, like
you mentioned in the verybeginning, when you use the term
gaslighting about Sha'CarriRichardson and somebody who's
like're, it doesn't affect you,I guess I I don't have a thick
skin so like any negative thing.
I just I'm like I I have to getit out of my, I can't look at
it.

Speaker 2 (58:45):
So you don't have that kind of yeah, no, because I
know, I know what I if I knewwhat I meant, and my editor
knows what I meant, and plentyof other people, because it's
not just you and one editor,it's like multiple editors read
a piece before it gets publishedand if it passes through all
those layers of very smart,critically-minded people giving

(59:05):
it the green light by the timeit gets published you know.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
Well, here's.
I understand what you're saying, but another question I have
about that is like have you everhad and you don't have to say
which person or anything buthave you ever had, and you don't
have to say which person oranything but have you ever had
negative feedback from theperson you wrote about?
Like that they're like, hey,like you know, I that's not how
I wanted it, or something.
Or like that I didn't, that'snot how I am, or something Like
have you ever had that?

Speaker 2 (59:28):
I've never had someone say that's not how I am.
I've never had anyone accuse meof not capturing them
accurately.
What I have had is somebody afamous runner that I wrote about
took issue with details that Iincluded in my piece because I
had gotten these details from adifferent source than from our
interview but the source I gotthe details from were was from a

(59:53):
book that this person hadwritten and I was like, but I,
you gave me this from the sourcematerial and you told yeah so
that, and this book is in thepublic domain, but so there was
a little bit of friction there.

Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
I see.

Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
But you know, it was like we discussed it and we
worked through it and ultimatelyit was okay.
But it wasn't it.
So it had nothing to do with memischaracterizing them.
It had everything to do withthem not expecting that I was
going to use material that camefrom a different place in our
interviews.

Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
I see interesting.
Um, well that we're coming upon time, but I really did want
to touch a little bit more onthe stuff outside of writing
quickly.
So talk about the races youhost or direct whatever you call
yourself, because I know on thephone before we had this
podcast, you mentioned how thiscame to be.

(01:00:50):
But real quick, I actually setmy PR in the 5K at your event in
the middle of the pandemic,because there were no races and
I was in the best shape of mylife and I had nowhere to take
it out on or like, do do thelike, show that I was fit and
you were hosting these 5ks onthe track 5000s and I jumped

(01:01:10):
into two of them and I ran umsub 17 minute in the 5k, thanks
to you.
So how did the east river 5000idea come to be?

Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
yeah.
So, um, there's like there Ican give you a long version,
short version, I'll try to giveyou a shorter version.
Uh, in 1991 I was 15 years oldand I wanted to see this dutch
band that I really loved calledthe Legendary Pink Dots.
They were in the Netherlands.

(01:01:40):
I was in Illinois, iowa.
We wrote them a letter, somefriends of mine and I, and said
would you like to come in Anychance?
You're going to be playing?
Will you be touring the USanytime soon?
And they said in fact we areplaying the US.
Why don't you get in touch withour booking agent in New York?
And so I got on the phone,called this booking agent.
Next thing I know he puts usdown.

(01:02:02):
He's like okay, you have a date.
We were 15 years old, we didn'tknow what we were doing.
We had to go find a venue, wehad to find Sound and Lights, we
had to create a concert in twomonths and we pulled it off and
we packed the room and we endedup putting that dying blues club
on the outskirts of Davenport,iowa, on the map and it became a
destination for bands aroundthe country and even other

(01:02:26):
international bands to play infor a while, like for multiple
years after that and thatexperience kind of like it was
that again that sort of likepunk rock, sort of like DIY.
I want to do something.
I want to see a band that's I'mnot going to get to see if I
don't create it.
So in 2019, that band was goingon a 40th anniversary tour and

(01:02:49):
I wanted to write about it.
I wanted to.
I pitched, like all thesepublications, including my
hometown newspaper, I want towrite about this band and how I
wanted to see them.
So I created a concert andthereby created a scene in my
hometown.
Nobody wanted, nobody wouldpublish it.
My pitch fell flat and so I waslike I want to.
I just I was just really bummedout.

(01:03:10):
I was depressed, I wasnostalgic for being able to
create something out of scratch.
And so one day a friend of minewas he commented on one of my
dad's old running shirts that Iwas wearing and he was like
that's a cool shirt and I said,yeah, it'd be kind of cool just
to create a race.
And so this kind of like desirefor a different kind of race

(01:03:32):
than I was experiencing withnyrr and these, like I felt like
racing was just becoming socorporate so expensive.
The t-shirts were hideous,everything was broadcasting,
like all these sponsors all overthe back and they were they
were ugly, they were shitty techshirts, and I was like I want
to create a cool shirt.
I want to have a simple, low-keyrace, kind of like the ones

(01:03:53):
that my dad ran, and I want tocreate something new, like I did
when I was 15.
I want to just make it.
And so that was the East River5000.
A year later, we had theSuperfund 5000.
And at the time I was going tohave different races all over
the five boroughs and the EastRiver 5000 name stuck because I

(01:04:14):
liked it.
And then that so 2019 was thefirst race, and then over the
years I had I've lost track ofhow many track races we've had.
Now we have these, uh roadrelays that we've started doing.
Uh the ecadon, which is a 50kilometer relay race.
Uh beach to brooklyn 5x5k.
So they're like it's just aseries that I kind of.

(01:04:37):
It's the kind of racing that Iwanted to see happen that we
didn't have, and so kind of likecreating that legendary pink
dots show.
I just I was just like let'sjust make it happen that's uh,
that's cool.

Speaker 1 (01:04:49):
Yeah, I feel like that.
I I've kind of been holding out.
I ran into our friend Jim Ismanrecently and I he said he was
hanging out with you or he wastalking to you at some point and
I was like, hey, you have toask him.
This is before the podcast wasplanned, but I think you have to
ask him when he's gonna put onanother race.
I keep checking the website.
I really want another racebecause I don't like the big
races.
I don't want to do a big race.
I like it's like the the worstthing in the world to have to

(01:05:10):
wait to sign up for something ineight months and just have it
be such a pain.
Um, and I was like I wonder ifwe could convince David Alms to
put on a 10K.
That would be really cool 10Kon the track.
But it was just funny because,like, in my mind, you're the guy
for that.
But I guess what is the plan?
Like, what are the next racesthat you have coming up?

Speaker 2 (01:05:25):
Yeah, I mean.
So I'm doing one in June whichis going to be a very small,
low-key trail race, which I willhold off on details for now,
which I will hold off on detailsfor now, but it's going to be.
I will tell you it's going tobe in Prospect Park and it'll be
on the trails in Prospect Parkand we're going to keep it very

(01:05:48):
small, like 20 to 30 people.
And the reason we're doing itthere is and we're calling it
the Glacial 1000, and we'redoing it there in honor of the
glaciers that created ProspectPark.

Speaker 1 (01:05:59):
Cool.

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
And so the 1000 means like in 10 miles you can gain a
thousand feet with almost neverdoubling back.
This idea was brought to me bya guy in Brooklyn Track Club
named Kyle Oberman, who had kindof charted out this route, and
then he and I ran it togetherlast week and we're like OK, we
got to make this happen it outthis route.
And then he and I ran ittogether last week and we're

(01:06:20):
like, okay, we got to makeawesome this happen.
The next track race will beanother Sid Howard track classic
, which will be it's scheduledfor July 12th, and that'll be
the 5000 you did that a coupleyears ago, right we did one last
year and then we did one in2021 that's, I did that one.

Speaker 1 (01:06:34):
I remember it was really hot, yeah, um, and he was
there and said, yes, he'salways there.
And he had the iconic t-shirt.
Right, that was the yellowshirt.
Yeah, the t-shirt's also afunny thing because you've
brought it up a few times.
But the iconic race t-shirt andthat's something that you guys
or your, you guys you make.
Where there's t-shirts involved, art, like, uh, you hire
somebody to make these.
Well, it is, I mean, I thinkthe plural is is Like.

Speaker 2 (01:06:56):
I always say that East River is a collective Like.
Yes, it's my idea.
I founded it.
I run the Instagram.
I'm in charge of sort of likethe brand identity, as it were.
I don't like to call it a brand.
It's not a brand.

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
I know what you mean.
It's not a brand Down withbrands.

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
But like I'm in charge of, like the sort of the
aura that.
East River is supposed to giveoff, but then I couldn't do it
without these incredibledesigners that are so happy to
participate and contribute theirwork, and you know Sean Micah,
who's a really close friend.
Oh, yes, yeah, I know, sean,he's done a bunch of my race

(01:07:32):
shirts Logan Emser, LukeMcCambly, the Orange Runner,
Sebastian Spear.

Speaker 1 (01:07:43):
All these artists that have contributed to the
tease.
Yeah, james's wife Sarah Mezianhas done one, and she's not
even a runner.

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
She's in the community, yeah exactly so it
really is a collective effort ofdesigners and photographers,
and Chris Fortyris, 40, whotimes the race, and his
girlfriend becca, like you know.

Speaker 1 (01:08:03):
so we're we're a collective and collectively, we
we try to make great things yeah, a lot goes into making those
events happen.
Um, I just have such greatmemories of of doing those races
.
Um.
So, since we are, uh, out time,what do you have going on next,
or what's next for David all um, you know, in the next

(01:08:24):
foreseeable future as far as,like you know, are you trying to
write a book, or is thereanything like the some big um
milestone that you're hoping toachieve?

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
Um, I'm hoping to turn 50 successfully.
It's happening in August hopingto turn 50 successfully.
It's happening in august, ohwow.
So yeah, I mean, that's, that'skind of it, like, uh, I have
hood to coast to race.
Um, I'm, I don't have any bigwriting projects like I'm right

(01:08:53):
now, like I'm, I'm reallyfocusing on getting better at
music oh, that's amazing, I wasgonna.

Speaker 1 (01:08:59):
that was actually one of the questions I was going to
ask is like tell us about themusic which we don't have much
time for today, but you'replaying the banjo, you're
playing shows occasionally.

Speaker 2 (01:09:08):
Yeah, I mean I go to like bluegrass meetups where we
play like public, you know, atbars.

Speaker 1 (01:09:15):
Is it here in New York?
Yeah, at bars.
Is it here in new york?
Yeah, they're all over.
Oh, I'll totally come.
Can I go?

Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
sunnies.
Yeah, I mean you should come tosunnies on a saturday night
awesome, that's the best place.

Speaker 1 (01:09:21):
Oh man, blue grass in new york, that's so cool.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
Yeah, um but it's yeah, it's cool, and I mean I've
been playing the guitar since Iwas 12, so the guitar is like
my main instrument, but Ilearned the.
I started learning the banjo alittle over a year ago.
My dad and I built two banjoslast summer, and so right now
I'm just kind of interested inseeing where that goes.

Speaker 1 (01:09:40):
I love that I love that so much.
I love that you're turning 50this summer and music is your
focus.
I was just talking to someoneabout how I'm a music head.
I love music.
It's like my labor of love.
That's never loved me back andI've never done it on a big
level.
I had friends that were inbands and I've always just been

(01:10:06):
like I need to like put moreinto it and I sometimes I just
wrap myself up in like, oh well,I'm 36 and music, but it's,
it's not real.
None of that's real.
It's like it's just a construct.
That, um, yeah, so I relate tothat a lot.
Yeah, and I think that's kindof funny that like if somebody
asked me what I was working onright now, I'd probably say
music.
That's what I was working onthe way here I was like it's the
thing that's always in the backof my mind but yeah it's just
like it's just part of you, um.
But so yeah, on that note,before we go, can you give me a

(01:10:26):
couple albums that I shouldcheck out that I haven't heard
of?
I know you love um Boards ofCanada like.
I do and, uh, you like LaurieAnderson Big Science.
I was going down a rabbit holewith that recently and I noticed
you'd posted about that oninstagram.
Give me a couple albums I needto check out that are kind of in
that world or something thatyou're like.
You need to check this out doyou know?

Speaker 2 (01:10:44):
the two bands that I'm like in a major kick with
right now are a band out oftexas called this will destroy
you, cool, and they're like I'veheard of them atmospheric, uh,
very this will destroy you.

Speaker 1 (01:10:59):
It's kind of like.

Speaker 2 (01:11:01):
So the other band is called Mono and they're a
Japanese band and they're bothkind of like Sigur Rós, but
without vocals and very like.
It can be very quiet and it canbe very swelling into these
like majestic orchestral sort oflike they.

(01:11:24):
They're it's.
I think if you like boards ofcanada, this will destroy you in
mono or my two jams right nowheady.

Speaker 1 (01:11:32):
I like heady music, that's my thing.
I go down these like I'll go onlike long walks just listening
to uh.
Music has the right to children, like I did that yesterday.
It was like sunny and I'm likenobody understands but me um in
this situation.

Speaker 2 (01:11:44):
It's transcendent.
That album is transcendent.

Speaker 1 (01:11:45):
Love it um, so anyway , thank you so much for coming
to the show.
Um, is there anywhere thatpeople can find you like?
Do you have a social media thatyou care about sharing, or sure
I mean um.

Speaker 2 (01:11:57):
I I am on Instagram under my.
My name is Dalmatis, like Dolma, like Greek grape, like stuffed
grape leaves, but with an, aDalmatis there's.
No, I'm not Greek um but, I wasrecently actively encouraged to
set my Instagram to private bya journalist named Lauren
Markham who covers.

(01:12:17):
She's done a lot of reportingon surveillance, particularly
around the border, and brilliantjournalist and she compelled me
to-.

Speaker 1 (01:12:29):
Set it to private.
Set it to private.
I need to do that.
I feel this.
I've heard a lot about thiskind of stuff and I'm yeah, I'm
way out there and I wish Iwasn't.

Speaker 2 (01:12:38):
Yeah, but for what it's worth.
She has over 3 000 followers,but they're private.
But it's private, so, like I,think it's more about keeping it
locked from any bad actors, soI think I'm going to set it to
private, but people can request.

Speaker 1 (01:12:52):
They can request um well, anyway, thank you so much
for coming on my show.
Um, it's been a pleasure.
I feel like we barely scratchedthe surface, but hopefully my
listeners got an idea of whoDavid Alm is.
Check out his work.
It's great.
You can Google him and a lot ofthe articles will just come
right up, so that's one way tofind some of his pieces.
Yeah, so thank you so much forcoming on.

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
I appreciate you having me.

Speaker 1 (01:13:14):
Thank you and yeah, until next time.
Just be fast, just win.